PDA

View Full Version : Most stupid strategies EVER !!!



HEGrant
12-20-2005, 09:32 PM
I recently rewatched Ali/Foreman and have to say that Foreman fought the stupidest fight I ever saw a top fighter fight...he was the only man in the arena or watching that did not catch on to what he was doing to himself...knowing Foreman as we do today makes it even more painful...

Does any other suicidal strategy of this magnitude come to mind ? I cannot think of a larger self destruction than Foreman/Ali, can you ?

gregbeyer
12-21-2005, 12:49 AM
sharbay mitchells second fight against kostya. facing a fighter that was coming off a long lay off he rushed k.t. giving him the best opportunity he could have asked for.
greg

Roberto Aqui
12-21-2005, 12:55 AM
It would not have been stupid had George just caught Ali one more time when he had Ali out on his feet.

By drying George out two days before the fight, Saddler guaranteed his meanness AND his lack of stamina. George had gotten used to fighting in that specialized zone that he dominated. The only time he ever struggled was against Peralta who was not as powerful as Ali turned out to be. Even if there had been a back up plan, George was so exhausted, stubborn and pissed off that he couldn't implement it.

As a former construction worker I know what it's like to be dehydrated, hot, and overworked in the summer. You really get surly and mad and it doesn't matter if King Kong is pissing you off, you just go off and let the chips fall where they may.

HEGrant
12-21-2005, 12:59 AM
That's fine but George was not a construction worker...George was a olympic gold metal winning, undefeated heavyweight champion of the world who abanded his jab as well as the superior style he used to win most of his big fights and simply fought as if he were in the ring with the heavy bag. He did not adapt one 1% when he saw that Ali was playing him. While he did connect once or twice in the first two rounds, he was clearly getting more wild and losing steam by the punch. Never once did he try and switch gears. It was pathetic.

Roberto, are you saying you feel this was the best fight you George was capable of fighting ?

Roberto Aqui
12-21-2005, 01:12 AM
[[[[[[[Roberto, are you saying you feel this was the best fight you George was capable of fighting ? ]]]]]]]
============================

No, I'm saying he was hot, tired, and dehydrated before ever stepping in the ring, was fed up with being held hostage in a country he hated, and just let it all hang out.

I would remind you that he claims he was drugged by Saddler with a small bottle of water which he wasn't used to receiving before a fight. I thought of that the first time I saw the fight and saw him look so uncoordinated and crude in the early going. Years later I read his bio and found out he thought he was drugged.

I don't know if he was or was just feeling extraordinary effects of the strangest ring conditions in heavyweight history that all seemed to be aligned against him.

I think he would have KOed Ali in the rematch which is why the rematch was never made. Ali flat out could never duplicate those conditions again.

four oclock
12-21-2005, 01:41 AM
I agree with Agui. Too many questions surround that fight and Ali never did give him a rematch. His career post-Foreman was carefully choreographed to keep the "Greatest" pistons pumping so to speak...

starlingstomp
12-21-2005, 01:42 AM
Wilfredo Gomez kamikaze first round attack on Sanchez.

Lionel Rose deciding to rough up Oivares instead of using his legs like he did with Harada.

gregbeyer
12-21-2005, 03:21 AM
gomez and rose were meat regardless.

i would have liked to have seen a foreman- ali rematch in the states.

roberto...i used to be a pissed off construction worker too. many times up 40 or 50 floors i would forgo my leathers in the brutal,smoggy heat of L.A. and weld without them. i still have the burn scars from those days. better picture of you now.thanx.
greg

JLP 6
12-21-2005, 02:58 PM
Corrales inside wars with Castillo. He'll probably do it again.

greek1237
12-21-2005, 03:40 PM
how about Moore rideing the ropes with Rocky Marciano hopeing the Rock would run out of gas???

Sure its a early rope a dope, but I think If Moore was watching the Charles fight, he may have 2nd thoughts on useing this tactic?

beddows
12-21-2005, 04:24 PM
Didn't Lou Nova use yoga in training for Joe Louis?

HEGrant
12-21-2005, 10:28 PM
I never heard him say in the past twenty years that he was drugged by anyone. That was complete sour grapes after the loss. He has long taken sole crdit for the loss. He often refers to himself as the dope in rope a dope.

I don't buy the excuses your giving George. Ali was 8 years older and it was just as hot for him. Ali was just as sick of having to stay in Zaire but made the best of it. Are you saying he took a dive when you wrote he just said the hell with it ?

Roberto Aqui
12-21-2005, 11:02 PM
[[[[[[I don't buy the excuses your giving George. Ali was 8 years older and it was just as hot for him. Ali was just as sick of having to stay in Zaire but made the best of it. Are you saying he took a dive when you wrote he just said the hell with it ? ]]]]]]]]]
=====================

Dude, listen up, Foreman wasn't allowed to spar for the month leading up to the fight except for maybe a few days before the fight. He said he was drugged in his bio. READ it. In the end he accepts responsibility for the loss and says the better man won. He makes no bones about wanting the rematch.

It was a poor fight for him. Not unlike Ali's Cooper, Jones, and Norton fights. It happens. In the end he's proven himself with the most career wins of any champ but Jack Johnson, the most KOs of any heavy champ, and unlike Johnson he was fighting and beating top comp when he finally hung em up. So he lost the Ali fight? At least he never lost a Spinks fight.

HEGrant
12-22-2005, 12:44 AM
I'm just asking you to clarify what you wrote.

Does he still say he lost because he was drugged ? If so, then how does he take responsibility for the loss ? Is he saying the drugs did not effect him ?

My understanding was that he did not spar as much to insure he would not reopen the cut he received that caused the delay.

Are you saying you think he lost due to drugging or that Ali legitimately beat him ?

GorDoom
12-22-2005, 01:56 AM
Big George cut down on his sparring because of the cut that postponed the fight. & nobody wanted another postponement.

Period.

As to the drugging since his bio George has more than once categorically said that he wasn't drugged & it was just an excuse & that Ali beat him fair & square because he fought a dumb fight.

Period.

Why does it always have to be a conspiracy when it comes to Ali? The constant denigration of his feats is really bullshit. No, he wasn't perfect by any means - as a fighter or a man - but show me anybody that was better this side of Joe Louis ...

GorDoom

HEGrant
12-22-2005, 02:42 AM
I have to tell you, I was more than a bit jaded about Ali...for starters, most of the Ali I saw was the post Frazier 3 Ali...before that I was just way too yong to see the prime Ali.the short clips from his prime never sold me....that plus the bad parts of his personality, the manipulations and the media hype led me to simply not get how exceptional he really was...

In the last few months I have TVOED many of the Ali bouts from Classic...I'm talking entire fights from the 60's...I have now, recently watch many of his entire fights such as Patterson 1, Williams, Terrell, Chavalo 1, Folley, Mldenberger, London...after watching him in his prime I have to say the guy was absolutely exceptional...maybe really the best bar none...

I cannot overstate how devestating the man was ...in addition, we all know he was just entering his prime when he lost his best years to the draft...his size, speed, strength (highly underated) , power (also underated), chin, stamina and heart combined with his exceptional size make him my pick over anyone.

The most amazing thing to me about Ali was how after the huge layoff he managed to put up as great a fight as he managed against Frazier the first time out. That Joe was amazing himself and to see an Ali just six months and two fights back in there in such a big fight dishing out as much as he did and taking what he took is possibly his biggest accomplishment.

The reason I mention the Foreman fight is because I feel it was such an incredible performance by Ali. I was always a Louis #1 guy and while I still love Joe, I simply think Ali would have outpointed him..just too fast, and too good.

Walker Smith
12-22-2005, 06:05 AM
One thing about that Foreman-Ali fight. Without that fight, I honestly believe people today would consider Ali-Frazier III to be just another fight between two past-their-prime ex-champs and Ali's status as the greatest is not nearly as secured.

Ali did a lot to put himself at the top of most people's all-time lists. Most of all, he did it in the ring against the best competition from 1960 to 1975.

apollack
12-22-2005, 03:45 PM
George was never a brilliant boxer. He was a clubber with fair skill, but certainly not the speed or ring generalship or experienced knowledge of an Ali. Just watch his Olympic fights. He was as raw as hell but still won gold simply by his superior size and strength. Perhaps the most physically talented champion of all time. Ali outsmarted him and big George believed so much in his power and ability to knock out Ali that he fought the wrong fight.

Dragnet 69
12-22-2005, 05:19 PM
Tito vs Winky Wright. Moving the wrong way and failing to make any adjustments. His corner not giving any technical advice and apparently poor preparation to fight a lefty.

HEGrant
12-22-2005, 06:01 PM
Apollack, no question there except your are leaving out the progress he did make...the man (Foreman) had an exceptional jab...when he used it he was a completely different fighter...in the Ali bout he basically abanded it...the few times he used it in the early rounds he was able to drive Ali back hard...in addition, his ability to cut off the ring and blast away from side to side was ignored..instead, he played right into Ali's trap of standing directly in front of Ali , losing the leverage and power of his blows...

GorDoom
12-22-2005, 06:17 PM
Dragnet:

Your Tito-Winky analogy was spot on. What were Tito & his lack of brain trust thinking? For a world class fighter he fought about the dumbest fight since Foreman-Ali.

GorDoom

Hagler04
12-23-2005, 03:55 PM
When it comes down to it, pushing aside Saddler and Foreman's stamina, getting drugged etc. George lost that fight for one primary reason . .

He neglected his best weapon, the left jab.

Never seen a fighter, who had just previously had demolished Chuvalo and Frazier with the left, would completly ignore it and just wail away haymakers with both hands. Very stupid.

Hagler vs Sugar Ray anyone? Marvin those first 4 rounds was just dumbfounding to watch. Also Duran vs Leonard . . .you don't sit on the inside with hands of stone.

HEGrant
12-23-2005, 06:08 PM
Thank you Hagler...that is the point I have been driving through on this thread that is being ignored...George had a very effective , hard jab when he used it...he completely neglected it in the Ali bout.

Ronald Lipton
12-23-2005, 10:16 PM
Good thread, very interesting.

I have one obscure one that I remember had my jaw dropping in amazement. I saw Henry Clark, rush across the ring trying a Lloyd Honeyghan move, to catch and attack Charles Sonny Liston in their fight in the first round.

It did not do anything but piss off Liston who gave him a pounding.

Also Carter not attacking Giardello with all he had in his home town of Philly to make sure the only crack he got at the title paid off.

Just a lethargic slow no verve effort to pound the old champ who kept turning him and feinting him out.

I thought one of the worst mistakes I ever saw was when the tough but limited Joe Micelli, a big welter signed his name on the contract to fight Gene Fullmer who wanted to kill him from jump street for knocking out his brother Jay.

From the second the bell rang, it was the most one sided beating I have ever seen and I still cringe from the brutality of it and the 100% inability of Joe, who I like very much, to hurt a guy who seemed 3 times as strong.
Left him for dead with an overhand 3 stooges right hand wallop that would have crushed a horse. Almost killed him.

Did anyone else see that film, it is just incredible really
as Joe was no cupcake by a longshot. Fullmer was some animal like I have been saying for years. Beyond strong.

JLP 6
12-24-2005, 02:52 PM
I have to disagree with the thought that Foreman did the wrong thing. I think it was Ali who had the wrong strategy. But it worked anyway.

Foreman did what he was suppose to do. Get Ali to the ropes and try to knock him out. That part of the plan went great. Ali however got away from most of the hard shots by leaning deep into the ropes and covering up.

I think Ali should never have took that much punishment.

pendleton23
12-24-2005, 03:18 PM
How about Gatti trying to box with Mayweather?

Dragnet 69
12-24-2005, 07:01 PM
"I think Ali should never have took that much punishment."

I don't think Ali got hit cleanly very often in that fight. He IMO either blocked most of the punches or negated the power by holding George in close. Ali used to train often off the ropes throughout his career and knew what he was doing. He often said long before the fight that Foreman telegraphed his punches and were wide. George certainly could have fought smarter but Ali had to much of a skill/talent advantage. Foreman would always have problems with high talent/skill boxers with speed and movement and Ali was at the top of the heap in that arena.

HEGrant
12-25-2005, 01:07 AM
One of the things almost completely forgotten when discussing Ali was just how strong he was...Holmes told me this as well...watch Ali against Foreman, a man many consider the strongest ever to hold the title...watch Ali wrestle him straight up...often imposing his will on George...it helped him in a huge way in this fight...

Another Ali strength classic is the Bonavena fight...Ali literally threw Oscar all over the ring at will.

Roberto Aqui
12-25-2005, 01:53 AM
[[[[Another Ali strength classic is the Bonavena fight...Ali literally threw Oscar all over the ring at will. ]]]]
========================

I made a post not last month about that and some other early Ali fights. Oscar bulled Ali about the ring winging shots from every angle. Other than infrequent combos that Ali threw, and Oscar losing his balance in his wildness, Oscar, in spite of the crooked scoring, was making the fight and landing with more authority and had Ali hurt at one point.

If not for the best left hook Ali ever threw in a Hail Mary effort to KD Oscar and Oscar's stupid insistance on leaping up without a count and coming under the 3 KD rule, that would have been another Ali controversial win on the scorecards.

I agree that Ali was surprisingly strong, but you've gone overboard in this example.

HEGrant
12-25-2005, 01:21 PM
Overboard on this example: Rewatch the first few rounds. Oscar is wild and tried to bull Ali. Ali literally throws him all over the ring and down to the floor twice...Oscar actually looks like he is crying to the ref to stop Ali from bullying him...Oscar only managed to have some success against Ali later in the fight when the inactivity took it's toll and exhaustion hit Ali....

Ali's 1970/71 of Quarry/Bonavena and the Frazier was absolutely brutal. I can think of no harder comeback taken by a former champ. Think about it. Out for three and one half years. Get a license and in six weeks of training get in there with a very tough top contender like Quarry. A few months later and then an animal like Bonavena. Finally three months later and then an absolute prime, hall of fame killer like Frazier. It's amazing Ali did as great as he did.

He was lucky against Quarry. Gerry was just getting started and Ali was already slowing down when that cut happened. It saved Ali a very difficult fight.

Bonavena was a terrible match up for Ali after such a long layoff. He was strong, ackward and iron chinned. He was a god hitter. He was quirky and defiant. That fight exposed how much Ali lost. The legs would never be back.

Frazier 1 might have been Ali's greatest fight. For him to survive and put up such a competitive fight against this Joe was amazing...maybe his "Red Badge of Courage." It's amazing he went the distance and did not get seriously hurt.

No one made Ali take this path. His management did it for one reason, the money. They were scared that at any moment his license could be pulled again and took the fastest path possible to hype a superfight with Joe.

robertk
12-26-2005, 08:39 AM
A few real bad strategies thru the years;

Mugabi coming out throwing double jabs and using his footwork against mcclellan. Mugabi was long since shot and never pulled his hands back to their proper position. Let alone bouncing. and mcclellan was waiting like a cobra for mugabi to get within his circumference with those hands low.It didn't take 30 seconds.


Joppy-Trinidad. It looked like joppy was trying to win this one ala bazooka limon and walk right thru the guy to land his own shots. Joppy always held that head straight up in the air and just walked straight in didn't use any of his physical advantages or try to take advantage of trinidad's footwork.

Virgil Hill--Tommy Hearns. Hill had won a fair amount of close decisions but he did know how to win fights. But he was either flat or dumb but he let hearns fight the only way possible tommy could beat him. Great win for hearns and it looked as if hill did zero preperations for the fight.

Berbick--Tyson. there sure wasn't anyone I knew picking Berbick to win but sure thought he'd make it the distance with that style of his. Nope==fire eddie futch for this fight and walk into tyson and exchange--as if berbick had any kind of power or snap on his shots.

Holyfield--Lewis #1. Sure---evander and his vaunted 1 punch power was going to take out lewis with a shot when he wanted to. No need to try setting it up or anything--he'd just penetrate all those physical advantages lewis had as soon as the bell for round 3 rang. And there was hardly any point in having to prepare for a long jab like the lennox lewis jab either--just posing on the outside would work just fine and don't bother with things like upper body movement or head movement.

fabulous4
12-26-2005, 12:16 PM
Leonard vs Duran I --brawling with Duran isn't smartest thing to do for boxer like Leonard.

Also Hearns fought stupid fight against Hagler.


Foreman vs Young.

HEGrant
12-26-2005, 12:58 PM
Great Picks:

Hill/Hearns: I always felt that Hill benefitted from the weakest light heavy competition in my lifetime...he was a decent fighter but please...however, when he fought Hearns he fought so scared it was a joke...

Leonard/Duran 1 is an obvious choice.

Hearns/Hagler was another.

Roberto Aqui
12-26-2005, 01:27 PM
Leonard and Hearns had no choice in their style of fight. Leonard was almost KOed in the 2nd round by Duran with a left hook and was seeing stars and fighting for survival the rest of the fight.

Hearns has no leg movement to keep a monster like Hagler at bay on a night when Hagler was POed enough at Hearns to kill him with his bare hands. Stupid was getting Marvin that POed before the fight began.

Stupid is not showing up in fighting shape with a professional corner and thinking you can blow out Buster Douglas like Tyson did. Stupid is giving up all the early rounds against a game young challenger like Hopkins did against Taylor. Stupid is believing the hype that you're Tito incarnate and trying to slug with a dangerous slugger like Cotto did against Torres.

Stupid is Ali coming back for Holmes and Berbick and not retiring before Spinks.

Stupid is Golota.

Stupid is fighting for Don the Con King.

HEGrant
12-26-2005, 04:51 PM
Roberto: Why was Hopkins strategy stupid...at forty he obviously knew he could not match Taylors pace over 12 rounds...he had physical limitations, no different than your claims about Hearns legs...very inconsistant analogy...

As far as Leonard/Duran 1, please...that was all about Ray not fighting his fight...he proved just how easy he could do it six months later...watch the fight...Leonard choose to slug with Duran...Duran did not force him to do it...it was Ray's choice and he almost pulled it off. The fight was very close and Ray clearly took the last two rounds...

PeteLeo
12-26-2005, 05:14 PM
Marvis Frazier even climbing through the ropes to fight Holmes and Tyson.
("You shoot me even in a dream, and you better wake up and apologize," Mr. White to Mr. Blond in RESERVOIR DOGS.)
PeteLeo.

jyoungfan2
12-26-2005, 06:01 PM
Joe said he knew Marvis wasn't a great boxer. A lot of people criticize him for putting marvis in those fights. As Joe puts it, marvis got paid 1/2 million for each fight. The name of the game is to make money and Joe feels he got marvis the most for his ability.

fabulous4
12-26-2005, 06:08 PM
yep, this is revisionist

fabulous4
12-26-2005, 06:09 PM
yep, there are many Leonard' revisionists who say that Leonard was forced to fight Duran's fight first time and Duran was sick in second fight and quit only because of that. >D

Leonard was entire fight flat-footed, he never danced in that fight. He never even tried!

Reason he did this?

I think Ferdie Pacheco comments during fight summarizes it pretty well:

"Would you believe Leonard trying to match macho with macho!?"

Ferdie Pacheco: "Yes, he is been reading the papers and that's too bad, he should be fighting from outside, movement is what he needs, movement!"

Roberto Aqui
12-26-2005, 06:27 PM
[[[[[Roberto: Why was Hopkins strategy stupid...at forty he obviously knew he could not match Taylors pace over 12 rounds...he had physical limitations, no different than your claims about Hearns legs...very inconsistant analogy...

As far as Leonard/Duran 1, please...that was all about Ray not fighting his fight...he proved just how easy he could do it six months later...watch the fight...Leonard choose to slug with Duran...Duran did not force him to do it...it was Ray's choice and he almost pulled it off. The fight was very close and Ray clearly took the last two rounds...]]]]]]]]
========================

Hopkins could've varied his off rounds and tried to take a few early rounds, mixed it up for the judges. Hearns doesn't come close to being equivilent to Hopkins in their respective fights. Hopkins had a choice, Hearns was helpless.

Duran 2? Duran forced Ray to fight his fight when Duran was near his all time best and Ray was just about peak in the first fight. Duran was a fatted pig in the ring for the 2nd fight. The 2nd fight proved nothing other than apparently you have never bothered to read on this board about how pathetic Duran's prep had been for the fight. There was talk of not paying him and suspending him.

HEGrant
12-26-2005, 07:05 PM
Roberto , please...Leonard could just as well fought as a boxer in their first time out ...you are about the only person I ever read that has said Duran "made" him fight his fight...complete revisionist history. Watch the fight !!!! Leonard has dozens of opportunities to dance away but never does...He chooses to engage Roberto...if that were not the case we would see Leonard trying to dance but fail due to Roberto cutting him off...you never see it because it simply did not happen that way...I am a huge Duran guy but I can seperate fantasy from reality.

As far as Hopkins goes, how do you know ? Maybe he simply lacked the gear to compete with Taylor full throttle out of the gate and had to catch up with him as the younger man slowed down a bit. It's amazing how you are so sure of what Bernard could have done and so sure of what Leonard and Hearns could not have done.

You must be loaded from winning huge money on all these fights with that sort of knowledge. ;)

starlingstomp
12-26-2005, 07:13 PM
Does it really matter that Leonard was flat footed or not?.Being flat footed does not necessarily mean that one is not trying to box and counter the other man.

leonard did not come out winging punches or looking to take one to land one.He claimed centre-ring because i assume he thought he was the stronger man and could control the fight with Duran right in front of him.

I don't remember many people at the time saying Duran was stronger or that Leonard HAD to stick and move to win.

Duran outfeinted and countered him from the outside early in the fight and then maintained the initiative for most of the remaining rounds.He put on a masterful display of slipping and countering.That's why he won the fight, not because of Leonard simply opting to trade.

I reckon if Leonard had fought the way he did in "no mas" the first time around he would have won a close, tough decision.However, there wasn't really many saying that was what he definitely had to do, so his losing had more to do with his being unable to solve the puzzle in front of him IMO.

Roberto Aqui
12-26-2005, 07:14 PM
[[[[[[...I am a huge Duran guy but I can seperate fantasy from reality.]]]]]]
======================

No you can't. I believe it was SI who did a big spread on Ray after Duran 2. Ray stated he was caught by a left hook in the 2nd round of the first fight and was seeing stars and forced into retreat for most of the fight. This was a big interview and widely available. He also lays out how he gave monetary concessions to force a bloated party pig that Duran had become into a quick rematch in order to secure the advantage.

Randy Gordon did a huge piece on the prep of Duran 2 where he records the pitiful excesses he saw by Duran. The article was widely distributed on this board. I would add in that I, with no boxing connections other than what I read at the time, had heard the story of Duran's poor training and weighin long before I read Gordon's peice on this board.

Now, unless you are claiming that Ray and Randy were congenital liars, your pegleg has a bad case of termites. The record is clear.

HEGrant
12-26-2005, 07:32 PM
Joe ruined whatever substancial career Marvis might have had...he blew him up ten pounds, he made him fight in Joe's own style...all a mistake...Mavis was a classic boxer with decent power as an amateur...while he would never have been a heavyweight champ (except maybe today), he could have been one at cruiser where he belonged. It was all a mistake driven by Joe. Yes so after taxes Marvis ended up with $ 300,000 ... al ot of money but not for a career.

Dragnet 69
12-26-2005, 10:57 PM
I agree with Roberto's assessment and remember the interview he mentioned. Starling also makes a good point about Duran feinting Leonard and countering him from the outside. The punch that hurt Leonard in 2nd was from the outside. I don't think Ray could have beaten Duran that night no matter what he did.

Dragnet 69
12-26-2005, 11:04 PM
Another stupid strategy IMO was Quarry boxing Ellis and toeing it with Frazier. He should have went after Ellis like he did Buster Mathis and used a combination of boxing/countering and slugging with Joe. He might have beaten Ellis and would have a better chance at Frazier IMO.

fabulous4
12-27-2005, 06:01 AM
(This message was left blank)

fabulous4
12-27-2005, 09:07 AM
Does it really matter that Leonard was flat footed or not?.Being flat footed does not necessarily mean that one is not trying to box and counter the other man.


Depends who, if you have seen Leonard fights you should know that he was a dancer. Leonard said before fight to journalist that he will fight flat-footed and knock-out Duran. And he tried just that. Saying that Duran forced Leonard to fight flat-footed is pretty dumb statement.


About Duran being stronger than Leonard, i don't think that those who really knew how good Duran was thought that Leonard has chance if he fights inside.
No doubt that Ferdie Pacheco & (showtime?) commentators knew it, during fight they say many times similiar to:

"i just couldn't believe this. I can not believe that Leonard would come out and fight Duran like he was fighting Pete Ranzany!!"


I can't believe that someone seriously thinks that Leonard couldn't use lateral movement and was forced to fight flat-footed after round 2 where Duran shortly hurt him. :rolleyes

jyoungfan2
12-27-2005, 01:10 PM
Good point HEGrant. I never thought of Marvis at cruiserweight. One thinks "frazier" and heavyweight comes immediately to mind. would marvis have had a longer career at cruiser and would he possibly have been champion at that time?

HEGrant
12-27-2005, 10:58 PM
Roberto: Point out the rounds in their first bout where Leonard tried to dance away and fight but Duran forced him out of it. For once I'd like to see you back out your points with fact. You have 15 rounds to select from. I'd like you to point out five times where Leonard tried to dance and box, as he did in the second fight, but had his style changed by Roberto. Back it with fact . Should be easy for you.

In adition, what's your excuse for Leonard / Duran 3 Roberto ? Duran was just good enough to defeat the prime Barkley that just destroyed Hearns. What's your Roberto excuse for him losing almost every round of that fight ?

Roberto Aqui
12-28-2005, 12:04 AM
Gee whizzus, it's a stiff challenge to attempt to answer these boxing 101 questions with a straight face.

Just read the damn SI article in Ray's own words. He gives great credit to Duran who he depised, talks of trying to outbox him, but as I recall was fighting on his heels for most of the fight until he had recovered somewhat in later rounds. He also layed out his strategy to take advantage of Duran's weakness in the rematch, which was weight, flab, and food in no particular order. Completely different fighters in the rematch.

As far as the 3rd fight goes, well, Duran in the FIRST fight had more than 30 fights than what Ray was able to even finish his career with and we know how Ray closed his career. Please let us know how well Ray performs when he has over 70 fights under his belt and you will have answered your own question.

BTW, Ray was no dancer. He did make effective use of movement and the ring when needed, but he was also an aggressive puncher and counter puncher with good defense in the pocket which is what gave him his popularity.

HEGrant
12-28-2005, 12:19 AM
So you refuse to back up your position with anything other than hot air ? You made a point. I'm sure you have or have access tothe tape since your so sure about the fight. Will you back it up with fact or not ?

GorDoom
12-28-2005, 01:30 AM
C'mon guys can't you have a disagreement without getting all personal about it? This is just fucking boxing not the Israeli-Palestinian peace accords.

The fact that you see these fights between Leonard & Duran differently is fine. You both have a right to your own opinions but are either Leonard or Duran worth getting all hot under the collar about? Especially over 3 fights that took place 25 & 15 years ago?

I think not & I also think neither of you are going to change the other's view so why don't you just agree to disagree & move on?

You're both good guys & knowledgeable, posters on this board & getting hung up on this b.s. is really a waste of both of your times.

respectfully,

GorDoom

HEGrant
12-28-2005, 10:43 AM
All I asked is for the guy to go to the tape and back up his claim with actual fact. This tape exists, unlike say Johnson/Langford. He refuses but wants to keep up with he said/she said half baked claims. To me it's bacause he cannot back up his talk with fact. Same thing with Ali muscling Bonavena in their fight. I said go watch the tape and see Ali throw Oscar all over the place. He says nothing about that.

Some guys like to throw out opinions all over the place like barstool muscle. I say go to the actual documented evidence, when it does exist, to support your claim. He refuses. It must be because he can't prove his point. That's that.

GorDoom
12-28-2005, 01:44 PM
Let it go, Evan .... The aggravation isn't worth it. Also, & I know this from personal experience: When a couple of us posters start feuding it's really a drag for everyone else.

While the argument & making points might seem important the reality is is that it kills a thread because everyvbody else finds it boring as hell. I know this because I've gotten involved in feuds in the past & the two things I learned from my transgressions are, 1- It's counter productive. 2- It really is boring as hell for everybody else.

I'm not trying to point fingers here at anybody because like I said, I've been guilty of the same conduct in the past.

GorDoom

Roberto Aqui
12-28-2005, 05:42 PM
What, you mean I have to start going back to bars to throw barstools around? Heck, ya'll gonna drive me to drinkin'!:x :evil

GorDoom
12-28-2005, 06:26 PM
Naw, Roberto, the last thing I want is for you to hang out in bars & get in fights. I'm not sure how old you are but I got a feeling that for both of us are bar fighting days are over ...

GorDoom

Roberto Aqui
12-28-2005, 10:18 PM
[[[[I got a feeling that for both of us are bar fighting days are over ...]]]]]]]]]
==================

Hopefully, though technically I've never been in a bar fight, though I did back a worm into a remote corner and made him melt many moons back. Luckily the bar had some peaceful smallish bouncers that allowed me to work my majic!

HEGrant
12-28-2005, 10:34 PM
Look I'm not dissing Roberto. The guy is very solid and knows a sh-tload...just keeping things interesting...however, when it bores the rest, respect dictates time to get over it.

GorDoom
12-28-2005, 11:31 PM
Thank you, Evan. I appreciate that. You're a stand up guy.

GorDoom

brutu
02-11-2006, 07:45 PM
I had heard that before the fight with Larry Holmes,that
Gerry Cooney decided he just"wanted to go the ditance' with the champion,like Rocky Balboa did.

PeteLeo
02-11-2006, 07:46 PM
I had Ali ahead after fourteen in the third Frazier fight, but I do have to wonder what would have happened if Eddie had allowed Joe to come out for the final round. I was reading a retrospective of this bout only a week or so ago, and that article contained something I'd never heard before:

According to the writer -- shoot me, but I forget who wrote it --, when Muhammad went to his corner after the fourteenth, he unequivocally ordered Dundee to cut off his gloves, saying that he was "finished." Angelo waved the words aside, as he had in the first Liston match, but the writer goes on to say that had Frazier left his stool to start the fifteenth, Dundee was prepared to stop it and concede a TKO victory to Joe. Anyone else ever read/heard anything like this? I know that Ali did collapse after accepting the crowd's cheers following the stoppage, but he and Dundee always claimed that action was voluntary and designed to get his hysterically happy supporters away form him. PeteLeo.

Roberto Aqui
02-11-2006, 10:31 PM
[[[[I recently rewatched Ali/Foreman and have to say that Foreman fought the stupidest fight I ever saw a top fighter fight...he was the only man in the arena or watching that did not catch on to what he was doing to himself...knowing Foreman as we do today makes it even more painful...

Does any other suicidal strategy of this magnitude come to mind ? I cannot think of a larger self destruction than Foreman/Ali, can you ? ]]]]]]
================================

Rather than start a new thread over old material, I thought I'd start up this fine example of your exaggeration.

I've spent part of the day reviewing that fight. It happens to be a great one in spite of the fact that George looks clumsy too often and Ali looks like crap. Ali took incredible punishment. It's no wonder he looked so bad in most of his title defenses after this.

I had George ahead 5-2 in rounds at the start of the 8th. I understand Ali won the 1st on the judges card, but after the 1st 30 sec George started to come on hard and I had him winning the 1st five handily. He caught Ali with a couple of good left hooks, showed a decent defense with his arms extended to disrupt Ali's flurries, and really did a number on the body. He also showed a sharp jab when he used it, and had spots where he picked carefully between Ali's gloves.

In the 6th George came out as weak as a kitten. Frankly, compared to the 5th, it looked suspicious, but even in a weakened state he kept Ali on the ropes as it looked like Ali was too tired to do too much. It's debatable if Ali even won these rounds, but George looked so slow and weak, I can understand giving to Ali.

The 8th showed George still tired, but regaining his strength. He's off balance though and early in the round he misses with a left hook and ends up sprawled over the ropes. Ali has cocked his right and holding George's head down with his left, ready to deliver a rabbit punch to his head which must be 3' out of the ring, but Steele jumps in and separates.

George is still coming on, though still a little off balance. As the round ends Ali has been pulling George's head in and down with his left hand and Steele would separate. Finally he pulls his head down with his left and delivers a borderline rabbit rt hand behind the ear. Foreman is ends up hanging over the ropes again, and Ali lands a flush rabbit right to the back of George's head. George sort of pops up and around where Ali delivers his classic combo, finishing with a flush right in the face of George who is already in his slow stumble across the ring.

It was the rabbit punch, set up by the continuous holding by Ali in the fight that set up that sequence. I counted 9 when George was up. It seemed like Steele rushed the 7-8-9-10 as George was getting up.

10 sec later Ali collapses for 5 sec in the ring. He had raised his arms, walking to his corner as the ring was swarmed. His team lifts him up, but he starts protesting to let him down. They immediately do so and he promptly faints. Mayhem breaks out as key people try to make room for him. He's helped up and sec later collapses again, but this time he's caught and guided to his corner.

Seems to me that George fought that way because he was hurting Ali and winning the fight. Even at his weakest moments in the fight, the 6-7th, Ali could not keep George off of him or do much to him. It was the rabbit punch at the end of the round that did in an exhausted George, plus a bit of a fast count. Ali was himself ready to collapse, and anyone who has ever seen the Wepner fight, his first afterwards, can clearly see the damage George did to him.

I still can't believe Ali stood up under the onslaught of George. He blocked a lot, but a lot were getting through, esp clean body shots. Watch the fight again. It's the reason the rematch was never made. Ali talks of retiring afterwards. Too bad he didn't. It just got worse from defense to defense for him, and in the Frazier rubber match where he was ready to quit a fight I had Frazier ahead in.

Roberto Aqui
02-11-2006, 10:58 PM
Try as he might, Ali just could not keep Frazier off him, much like Foreman. His flurries were just that, flurries whereas Joe had really teed off on him.

Not only did Ali state he could not come out the final round, but I think it Willie Monroe or some other Philly fighter Joe had in Ali's corner that heard Ali was quitting and was trying to make over to Joe's corner to tell them when Futch stopped the fight.

In the meantime, I wait to see what HE has to say about my previous post.

pendleton23
02-12-2006, 01:42 PM
Duran got into Leonards head the first bout and Ray fought the wrong fight.And anybody that disputes that doesn't know boxing.
And I don't care what Randy Gordon wrote about the rematch.
Leonard was embarrasing Duran and that was an experience Duran couldn't handle so he quit.

wildhawke11
02-12-2006, 04:40 PM
If i recall that first fight correct it was in a small ring. On the other hand the return was in a ring size of 24ft which played right into Ray's hands. In fact i had tipped Duran to win the first fight. But the guys at work were a little surprised to see me switch to Leonard in there second meeting. it was because of the room i knew Ray would have to move about in.

pendleton23
02-12-2006, 06:06 PM
The ring was not that small in there first bout.Ray got caught up in the hype in the first bout and tried to out macho Duran.
And it turned out to be a stupid move.In the 2nd Duran was in the process of outclassing Duran.Duran would and could never beat a Ray Leonard who utilizes his natural style.

thumper3852
02-12-2006, 06:18 PM
In the meantime, I wait to see what HE has to say about my previous post.


I'm glad you found another chance via this thread to continue your never ending quest to bash Muhammad Ali, Roberto. It's good to know that you spend time devising posts to get under HE's skin as well as the Ali fans that you have so much disdain for.....

You can take some pleasure that your post was noticed and congratulations on watching some Ali film....I thought you would have done that well before, however, given your consistent and plentiful negative postings regarding his many flaws as a champion fighter and human being.

Such keen observations like Foreman seemed "clumsy" really bolster your hidden contention that George was drugged......(frankly, Foreman was clumsy against fighters that could actually move because he typically relied heavily on his brutish strength).

And by the way...the referee that was in on the "fix" was Zach Clayton, not Richard Steele. The obvious suspicious developments in Ali-Foreman fight have to constitute one of the "most stupid strategies ever" because they all should have known that an eagle eyed, truth and justice guy like yourself would have easily uncovered how the cheating Ali and followers stole the title in Africa.

Roberto Aqui
02-12-2006, 08:14 PM
[[[[[[I'm glad you found another chance via this thread to continue your never ending quest to bash Muhammad Ali, Roberto. It's good to know that you spend time devising posts to get under HE's skin as well as the Ali fans that you have so much disdain for.....]]]]]]
================================

Whoa, I don't mind nicking HE now and again, or even a cheerleading Ali fan, but I don't have disdain for Ali or his fans. I do disdain King and the way Ali's team kept him propped up in his last years because I don't like what has happened to him.

Yeah, thanks for the correction about Clayton, that was clumsy of me, but that's about all the thanks I can muster for you. I happen to disagree Foreman had a bad strategy. He stumbled into some very circumstantial conditions that could never be duplicated again against a fighter many if not most consider to be the best heavy ever.

I just broke down the fight since I got a chance to review it that day. Just because a fighter loses doesn't mean that his strategy was wrong. Foreman was winning the fight and Ali had never even buzzed him in the fight. Was Foreman supposed to back off and say, OK, I think I'm going to outbox a superior boxer now? Actually, Foreman did take some R&R in the 6th and 7th, but still manage to stay on top of Ali who was himself ripe for the KO.

Sure, my view ain't politically correct, but I feel history is on my side even if you aren't.

HEGrant
02-13-2006, 01:58 AM
I don't understand Roberto's point. Is he saying that Foreman fought the right strategy against Ali ? If so, he's the only guy on the planet that feels that way including Foreman. George has time and against said he fell into Ali's trap based on his own overconfidence. He calls himself the "dope" in Rope a Dope.

As far as getting under my skin, whatever. Many of us are quilty of over venting on this Board from time to time. I m in that group. Other times we keep a cooler head, more often than not due to our M.C. Mr. GD...it's his house and if we enjoy the luxury of his hospitality, we have to adhere to his rules.

I personally feel Foreman self destructed in Zaire. I believe he had much better skills than he exhibited. He should have been able to outlast and defeat a 32 year old Ali that night. He did not win and I feel this was because he went kamakazi, the wrong style against the wrong guy. If he kept his head, used his stunning jab and paced himself he would have outlasted and outpointed Ali. He did not and he lost.

Roberto Aqui
02-13-2006, 11:12 AM
Like I pointed out, Ali was on the brink of KO himself and collapsed twice seconds after the end of the fight.

The nattering nabobs would've had a field day saying Ali fought the wrong strategy and that he self destructed had he folded in the ring.

FACT: Foreman won most the rounds and had Ali out on his feet in spite of not being able to properly prepare for the fight because of his cut.

Foreman has turned the fight into his personal joke highlight and moved on to far greater things. That speaks very highly to his ability to strategize. Read the post fight interviews. Ali hedges to rematch questions whereas George is philosophical and ready to pick it up as soon as possible. Ali knows he took a beating and is reluctant to enter the ring against George again.

BTW, Wepner claims he had an agreement to fight Foreman before the Ali fight, but that Don King told him that he was going to be fighting Ali instead. It proves nothing but is one more nail into the dubious nature of this whole promotion.

thumper3852
02-13-2006, 12:39 PM
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE SKILL VS BRUTE FORCE.......

If Big George learned ANYTHING from the humiliating loss to Ali, a fight which everyone picked George to win due to his vaunted power and Ali's age....he apparently forgot what the lesson was when he fought Jimmy Young....

There's no need to find excuses for George.....and certainly no merit in diminishing Ali's victory.....Foreman got beat.... by a better, more experienced, and tougher fighter, who just happened to have the perfect strategy for George and the vaunted Foreman power.

Foreman could have trained for 10 more weeks or ten more months.....he would have still fought the same stupid fight, because that's just how George fought and it always had worked for him.

fabulous4
02-13-2006, 02:14 PM
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE SKILL VS BRUTE FORCE.......

If Big George learned ANYTHING from the humiliating loss to Ali, a fight which everyone picked George to win due to his vaunted power and Ali's age....he apparently forgot what the lesson was when he fought Jimmy Young....



Foreman fought wrong fight with jimmy Young, agressive Foreman would have knocked him out with couple of rounds.
He fought right way against Ali since he couldn't win decision against Ali anyway.
But there's not much boxer than can do with wrestler and Ali was holding Foreman like master wrestler that night. And Ali was still close to being knocked out.
Everyone knew that Ali will try to tire out Foreman and try to come on later rounds but nobody thought before fight that he will use wrestling instead of boxing for that. :rolleyes

thumper3852
02-13-2006, 08:14 PM
...........sounds like George just couldn't win those fights....but no one felt Ali would beat him and very damn few thought Jimmy Young would beat him....funny how boxing goes some times.....strangely enough sometimes boxers have to actually do some boxing in order to beat some opponents.

Poor George....imagine an Ali wrestling with him...and actually having it work to his advantage....Foreman had every advantage relative to size and, I'm sure, in every one's nid, strength. If Foreman could have gotten away with it he would have muscled Ali all over the ring, hung on him to use his weight to wear him down, shoved him to the mat as he did Kirkman, etc.

I think the Foreman camp's biggest underestimation regarding Ali was his toughness and his strength relative to George's and the type of fighter that Ali had developed into as he matured...he was big enough to be sure, but he was also still faster and always was smarter. Foreman was so used to seeing men fall in front of him....when Ali didn't, and in the process jive talked him...George lost what little sense of control he had as a fighter.......that his handlers failed to account for these intangibles in an opponent, especially one of Ali's stature, and prepare George for it makes for one really stupid strategy...just hit the old guy and he'll go...just like Norton, just like Frazier, and just like all the rest....

Sure Ali wrestled, held, tied up....what's a guy supposed to do, just let the big oaf maul him? Hell no, maul him back, tie him up, pick your shots, and when the big boy starts breathing heavily, pop the jab, slip the punches, jab him again, let him know he's in with a warrior and a champ....and it worked just fine.

HEGrant
02-13-2006, 09:32 PM
The funny thing about Roberto is that I think he believes what he writes.

Ali was on the verge of a ko loss himself ? When ? There is no doubt that Foreman tagged him a few times with single shots when he was fresh and that stung Ali but George was wild and never able to string together enough in combination to ever have Ali on the verge of a KO loss. Since you just reviewed the fight Roberto, I am asking you to show us the moment when he had Ali on the verge of a KO. Round and time please.

Foreman won most of the rounds ? While I agree it is open to interpretation, I once again think you're wrong. The first few rounds were even. Through five you can say it was an even fight. However, everyone but Foreman saw where the momentum was heading as George openly deteriorated while Ali was exposing him and his flawed strategy. There is no doubt George remained dangerous to the end but there is also no doubt that he was falling apart in front of the world.

George was not in shape for the fight because of the cut ? Where do you get that one ? Most people say the cut allowed him more time to get in better shape, that at the time of the cut he was not 100%. I have never heard anyone but you say he was not in shape because of the cut. The man came into the ring looking like he was carved out of stone. He did not have an ounce of fat on him. No one from his camp ever made a claim about that as far as I know. "It wasn't the jungle weather, it was the Ali leather". :rollin

Crooked promotion ? Are you saying the fight was fixed ? Was the ref paid off or was George doped ?

I am curious, is there anyone else who reads this thread that agrees with Roberto ? I personally think he either loves Foreman and sees it with rose colored lenses or strongly dislikes Ali.

To me it remains as I wrote when I started it. Foreman, overconfident and arrogant, came into the fight believing he was going to blow Ali out as he did Frazier and Norton ... when he could not do so, he refused to shift gears as great fighters often have to do to win difficult fights. His refusal, combined with his aged but still exceptional opponent, resulted in a stunning defeat that took him decades to get over from a mental standpoint.

Now while were at it Roberto, tell me again how Leonard Duran one was all about Duran not letting Leonard box instead of Leonard making a poor strategic decison with his ego to choose to slug.

PD99
02-13-2006, 11:59 PM
I think the potential success of any alternative strategy on Foreman's part is over rated.

He was never going to out box Ali. For Foreman to win, Ali had to be put out inside of 4-5 rds, something which many predicted George would do. As far as most ppl were concerned, it was a moot point to speculate the complexion/result of the bout after 4 rds. In the 2+ yrs preceding Zaire, Foreman averaged little over 2-3 rds per bout.

For Ali,Foreman was little different from prevoius bouts, he started cooly enough looking to cut the ring off and he did force Ai to the ropes before too long. Remember, it was a super mobile Ali who was ready to go from rd 1. He landed first, with an audacious lead right - the first of many easily landed on Foreman throughout. With left jabs and straight rights, on the ropes and off, he continually kept Foreman off balance and circumvented any momentum George might've built. Ali's still elite hand speed was a big factor. So too was one of his more outstanding punching displays which, imo, is often overlooked. Flatfooted, he jarred Foreman with the jab and spun his head time and again with right crosses. When George wasn't punching, Ali was. Foreman was already beginning to puff up by rd 3 when yet another Ali right clearly staggered him. The punishment meted out by Ali himself lent itself a great deal Foreman's rapid deterioration and ultimate demise, imo.

If Foreman had paced himself and fought boxed more considerately it would've only given Ali more breathing space and time to outbox him in a more conventional fashion. A longer, less dramatic fight with Foreman stopped sometime after 10 rds in my view.

As good as Foreman's jab was, Ali was almost as big as George and it wasn't going to enjoy the same glaring success it did against the more hittable and shorter Chuvalo and Frazier (also a notorious slow starter who was repeatedly & illegally shoved by Foreman to allow for punching range). Ali simply showed what would happen to Foreman against a top shelf contender who managed not to get himself KO'd inside of the first 4 rds.

The Norton fight actually gave a glimpse of how easily Foreman could be outboxed. Of course, Norton didn't have Ali's skills nor chin and fell apart under George's first solid shot. Norton admitted that he saw plenty of openings but was simply too tight to take full advantage. He did not see Ali suffereing the same mental impairment and Norton was one of the few ppl to pick Ali to win - "by decision easily".

Btw, I had the fight pretty even going into rd 8 also, A rd in which Foreman was still able to land a thudding right cross, spinning Ali's head & forcing him to move off the ropes in quick time.

Does anybody know the official scoring at the time of the KO? Roberto said it was a fact (aka Roberto's opinion?) that Foreman was leading.;) .

Roberto Aqui
02-14-2006, 12:39 AM
[[[Does anybody know the official scoring at the time of the KO? Roberto said it was a fact (aka Roberto's opinion?) that Foreman was leading.]]]]
===========================

Foreman was ahead by about 2 on the cards that I saw. I had him ahead by 3.

If HE would read some Ali bios, eventually he will come across some Ali admissions he was out on his feet in the bout. He also collapsed seconds after the fight, very similar to the Frazier 3 fight when he told Dundee he couldn't come out the 15th round.

HEGrant
02-14-2006, 01:39 AM
I repeat Roberto, when was he out on his feet and on the verge of a KO loss ? Why not simply answer the question ?

You clearly said you just reviewed the fight. You should have no point decisively telling us the time and the round. Maybe you wont because then you'd have to back up your over the top stretches with some fact perhaps ?

I repeat, point out when. Don't revise history and don't stretch words written by Howard Bingham in The Greatest. The time of the round or rounds in question please.

Roberto Aqui
02-14-2006, 08:20 PM
[[[[ I repeat Roberto, when was he out on his feet and on the verge of a KO loss ? Why not simply answer the question ? ]]]]]]
===========

I reviewed the fight, yeah, but not for that. I was more interested in the ebb and flow, the rounds won, when Foreman wore out, Ali's response, the KO sequence, the count, and the collapse of Ali.

George catches Ali with a flush left hook to the jaw in the first round. He catches Ali with another mid rounds. He also does a number on Ali's body midrounds where he has a window of free shots. That is probably when Ali was out, but he says he was out at least 2-3 times during the fight.

It's telling that when George comes out in the 6th weak as a kitten, Ali can do little with him and mostly lets George pound weakly away, so obviously Ali was in recovery as well as George.

I'll look at it this PM, yet again.

HEGrant
02-14-2006, 09:06 PM
Look there's no question Foreman was an exceptionally strong, hard punching, tough boxer. Even fighting what I feel was the wrong fight, he was still extremely dangerous and hard for Ali to take out. Ali must have hit Foreman with a dozen flush right hands in the first round alone and Foreman shook them off like nothing.

I always viewed Zaire as more of a huge Foreman disappointment than anything else. I felt he should have won the fight. Of course he was no going to out box Ali but he could outpoint him by hammering in that hard jab...throwing shots to the body and crossing over the ocassional right hand.

PD99
02-15-2006, 01:51 AM
The question of Ali being out on his feet during the fight has been thrashed out before (pre hack). I think some wires got crossed as to who was arguing for what. I'm not here to argue, just discuss.

Imo, the description in The Greatest in it's own right (whoever you want to attribute it to), clearly & deliberately describes Ali in a half conscious state (aka out on his feet, imo). There is no liberal interpretation or "stretching" of words to read it that way. Most ppl I've read uniformly read it that way. No disrespect intended but does anyone besides He disagree? The fact that someone might not be able to point with 100% confidence to a given moment during the fight in which that definitely appears to be the case (Ali being out on his feet) does not alter what is an otherwise fair & literal reading of the passage in question.

However, if the suggestion is that the description itself in The Greatest is overlaced with hyperbole or "stretching" the actual truth (as run up against the vision), I wouldn't necessarily disagree.

Now to throw a few other things into the mix, Foreman himself (Ali's most intimate observor during the course of the fight) stated that he hit Ali with some of the hardest shots he ever threw (disagree, Smok'n Joe was the unfortunate recipient of same) and that there were moments when his punches appeared to put Ali "out" momentarily only for Ali to somehow "awake" again shortly thereafter and fight back. Perhaps George was simply riding the coat tails of the description in The Greatest. Anyway, given Ali's recuperative powers, if any fighter could get away with a punch induced micro sleep whilst still on his feet going generally un noticed, Ali would be that fighter, imo.

The man became frighteningly acustomed to absorbing punishment and, perhaps there were a # of unidentified moments during his career in which he rode out a short lived semi conscious state. The description in The Greatest also mindfully noted "I've been here before".

I can nominate a moment when I think that Ali was literally "out" on his feet without the commentator (seasoned Dunphy) even touching on his even being hurt. It was rd 10 (I think) in Manilla. Frazier caught Ali with a particularly hard and flush hook in the corner. He then tees of with a succession of left hooks. Imo, you can literally see the life drain from Ali's upper body but he is supported by the ropes (as he was at times in Zaire). Though Ali's arms remain wrapped over his head, he does nothing else. Absolutely static. Dunphy confidently suggests that Ali will soon open up like he always does. True. Ali always did and as viewers we became accustomed to same, even after taking the most hellacious shots. For mine, in rd 10 at that very moment, Ali was literally "out" on his feet for several seconds before recovering.

Remember what Frazier said after the fight?. Something like Lawdy, he's a great champ. I hit him with shots that would've brought down the walls of a city.

Roberto Aqui
02-15-2006, 02:41 AM
"bring down the walls of Jerico"

Joe was a devout Christian and used Old Testament imagery to descibe his bout with Ali. Agreed, Ali was out against Joe too, took a helluva a beating. It seems Ali had some kind of hibernation zone he went into that allowed him to survive these bouts. I just don't see other heavies standing up to the punishment Joe and George layed on him.

Looking at the fight again, you can see Ali go into hibernation in the 3rd-5th at times. However he looked the most visibly hurt in the 7th when George caught him with an uppercut. George looked well on his way to KOing him in the 8th when the rabbit punch landed and started his downfall.

What I can't believe is Ali didn't seem to have a mark on him, and George did catch him with good shots. Not even rope burns. Amazing.

I would also say, though George was tired, he was coming back after looking punched out in the 6th and most of the 7th. I would not say he had a stamina problem in the fight since he really put on a show.

HEGrant
02-15-2006, 12:09 PM
I disagree about the 7th and 8th. By that time Foreman was fighting at half speed, his punches wild, almost comical looking, and he looked as if he were throwing them underwater. Ali was also tired from exertion and the heat. He was much smarter, biding his time and picking his shots.

SageBrush
02-15-2006, 12:15 PM
I dont know what else he might of Tried, But Peter McNeeley rushing into Tyson like that no doubt speeded up the result a tad.

Re Ali and Exhaustion, I cant remember off hand regarding the Foreman fight, and very the crowded ring, But certainly for Frazier 3, only once fraziers retiement was known did Ali allow himself to relax, and sit on a Stool, if there was a 15th, at worse, im sure Ali would still have been able to negate Joe for another 3 mins.

Sharkey
02-15-2006, 02:34 PM
reason Ali could look 'out' and 'hurt' and then win was the attribute great fighters have of recuperative ability to recover when hurt.

Ali had it. In spades. Examining unanswerable and unmeasurable moments and incidents within a fight can only fail to reveal tangible proof.

It should be enough to conclude that Ali put out Foreman because he had powers of recovery beyond reason. Seeking to answer what else might explain it beyond that calls into question everything that happens within the ring.

In any fight.

And will fail to reveal the explanation that satisfies.

HEGrant
02-16-2006, 02:05 AM
You have logical points. I was simply asking Roberto to show what he seems so certain of by reference.