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blv30
01-25-2006, 06:26 PM
I know he had the big fight with Ali, but why did he defend the title against Ron Stander and Terry Daniels instead of more deserving heavyweights?

thumper3852
01-25-2006, 07:17 PM
Joe frazier was carefully managed by Yank Durham.....both of those fights, along with others in his career, provided nice paydays with minimal risk. That they came 10 and 15 months,respectively, after the Ali war of 3/8/71 is not a coincidence. Those fights were made to see what Joe had left and to give him some cash in the event he was more damaged than perhaps thought. Of course joe went through them like "Hell's Angels on a transvestite (sorry, I always loved that line).

Joe could fight......but he had a style that guaranteed he was going to take punishment...so it was wise to bring him along as they did. I think it was an example of good management.

GorDoom
01-25-2006, 07:23 PM
Thumper is absolutely correct. Frazier took a helluva beating - even though he won - in that first fight with Ali. If I recall correctly he ended up staying a week at the hospital afterward.

It was obvious that Frazier had a short career shelf life because of his style. & as Thumper said & I agree, it was a case of good & careful management.

GorDoom

Roberto Aqui
01-25-2006, 07:40 PM
Frazier also had a short career because of his high blood pressure. That's why he swelled up so much in a fight and had to go to the hospital to begin with. As tough as powerful as he was, he was playing with his health and was quite vulnerable.

HEGrant
01-25-2006, 08:41 PM
Frazier was a great fighter who is underated by many for the way he lost to Foreman...he is constantly refered to as a guy with an iffy chin which is pure bullsh-t. Joe had a tremendous chin..the punches that he took would have crippled other men...the first Bonavena fight is blown way out of proportion...a very green Frazier was dropped by a great shot but really not hurt...he was more off balance and went down again, also not really hurt...he survived the remainig two and one half minutes of the round with a Bonavena giving it all for the KO...other than that he was never rocked by Bonavena again in the 24 other rounds they fought...

Frazier was not a big heavy, about 204 at his best. He would not really be much bigger if he fought today...still he had a huge punch, his speed was very underated , his stamina super human, his heart beyond description.... he was the ultimate warrior...he belongs in the top six or so that ever lived.

Kid Achilles
01-28-2006, 02:48 AM
I disagree with that assessment of Frazier and Bonavena. In his book he even admits he was hurt, and badly too. I believe "it was not a flash knockdown" were his exact words.

Your point otherwise still stands. Frazier had a good chin. Not on the level of Ali, Holmes, or Marciano, but it was good.

HEGrant
01-28-2006, 07:52 AM
Your right about what he wrote in the book. I've also seen him say otherwise in interviews. Reguardless, I'm going on what I saw.

I did not mean he was not hurt, I meant it was more of a flash knockdown than a serious hurt. He did not look like Holmes against Shavers. He did not look like himself in Kingston. He came back from two knockdowns with more than two minutes to go in the round, Bonavena fresh and firing away like crazy and not only survived the round, he was firing back strong. That was more of my point.

I've read here so many times how guys really write off Frazier as a guy with a questionable chin and it's really not the case. A guy with a weak chin does not survive that and come back to win. A guy with a weak chin goes the way of Wlad against Saunders under those circumstances.

PD99
01-28-2006, 12:51 PM
I agree that Frazier had an excellent, perhaps even great, chin. For anyone who thinks that Foreman was an all time hitter and that Joe had a sus chin at the same time, it's a case of having your cake and eating it too. Foreman did not club Joe Frazier. Foreman hit Frazier with a collection of the hardest shots he ever threw in the ring. Shots that were absolutely on the button, time and again. Shots that nearly twisted Joe's head off his neck. If Ali took those exact same shots it's doubtful that he would've survived. How Frazier kept getting up God only knows. Even Foreman (justifiably) marvelled at Joe's resilience.

HEGrant
01-28-2006, 05:50 PM
That's my point. He was getting hit time and again with George's best at George's best...it's amazing he was not hurt for good.

kenmore3233
01-28-2006, 09:38 PM
As to why Frazier fought Ron Stander and Terry Daniels, it must be pointed out that it was customary at the time (the seventies) for heavyweight champs to fight push overs for easy money. This was regarded as a champion's right, so he could make easy money in between the serious title defenses.

In this manner Foreman kayoed Joe Roman in '73, and Ali fought Chuck Wepner in '75, Jean Pierre Coopman and Richard Dunn in '76, and Alfredo Evangelista in '77.

HEGrant
01-29-2006, 07:08 AM
Frazier was the best (active) heavyweight in the world from 68 through 72. He fought everyone. His style and physical skills and limitations demanded he take a huge amount of punishment to be victorious. He peaked in Ali 1. After that, he took a few easy fights as a build up to another Ali fight materialized. He could have fought Ali again at any time but refused for personal reasons. He wanted to make Ali wait for all the personal abuse Ali put him through. He refused to give Ali purse parity again. Whatever. he was never again the same fighter. Physical injuries such as vision and damage to his left arm were taking their toal. In addition, even at his best he was not beating Foreman and an active Ali.

walsh b
01-29-2006, 09:04 AM
If Frazier had one thing, it was a chin. To say it was good is an insult. He had one of the greatest in ring history. Foreman hit Joe with devestating shots and Frazier kept getting back up. Most if not all heavies in history would not have kept gettin' back up if hit with those shots. On his best day he was top 5 without a doubt. I only rate Ali and Foreman above him on any single day at their best. He's evens with Louis and the Rock and possibly he'd be a slight favorite. The biggest reason I say this is his chin, stamina, heart and damaging punches

HEGrant
01-29-2006, 10:56 AM
I'm with you Walsh.

There was no one in heavyweight history as big, strong, hard punching and good in one package as Foreman. He was simply a stylistic nightmare for Frazier. This is in spite of the fact thatJoe could possibly beat more of the all time greats than George could.

Joe gave Ali , more than likely the best ever, all he could handle in their first and third fights. The second really matters little since the ref allowed Ali to hold on for his life all night. (Why not have a 50 ft. ring while they were at it ?)

Other than Foreman an Ali I believe a prime, young Tyson with his explosive fast starts might have been a tough one for Joe.

Joe Louis would have been intriging match up...I favor Louis because Joe would be coming in to him and that is bad no mattter how you look at it. However, Louis did habe trouble with crouching fighters ... a tough one but I pick Louis.

Dempsey would have been a war but Jack's speed and power might have been too much. However after four rounds I favor Frazier.

Johnson would have tied him into knots...a tough matchup for Frazier.

Liston I'm not sure about...

However, as to the rest, I really love Frazier.

I think he would have been too much for Larry who did not have Ali's chin to withstand Joe for 15.

I think Joe would have destroyed Holyfield .

(More to come)

walsh b
01-29-2006, 12:00 PM
As regards Foreman in the debate, I feel at his absolute peak which was probably against Frazier in 1973 he is close to unbeatable. See all the other greats apart from Ali, Johnson and Holmes were very hittable. That spells trouble if Foreman is doing the hitting. People always seem to make out that all George had was a punch. I think he had a lot more, he did lack footwork, but against Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Liston etc...that would not hamper him too much. Those greats are hittable and I just don't see them taking the full whack from George. Remember Foreman had a very sturdy chin as well. He could take a wallop. If Schmeling gave Louis trouble, I think George pozes a much greater danger. Louis' chin would not take what Frazier and Ali's took.

Back to Joe, Tyson hasn't the character to hang with Joe. He has a punchers chance, but he's no Foreman so he wouldn't be able to man handle Frazier. Joe is as strong if not stronger, better chin, better stamina, heart and courage than Tyson. Plus Frazier was a wicked puncher. Tyson loses. Louis would really have to nail Frazier early with 3-4 consecutive hard shots to stand a chance. No way does Louis outpoint Frazier. He either KO's him early or Frazier wears him down in the middle rds for a KO win.

Dempsey will need to do the same as Louis to beat Frazier and I don't think he could. Frazier wears him down for a TKO win. The Rock I feel stands the best chance of beating Frazier apart from Ali and George because he's a supreme brawler and he could hang with Joe better than Louis, Tyson or Dempsey.

I suppose I would go far as to say that only Ali would outpoint Joe and only Foreman would overwhelm him. The rest are in for I feel too tough a challenge. Even Jack Johson.

Sebastian Guerriero
01-29-2006, 03:53 PM
I have Joe as my #5 heavyweight of all time. I think he is underrated today.

In my humble opinion, FOTC Joe> Any version of Ali head to head. That peaked version of Joe beats Tyson, Holmes, Bowe, Holyfield, Johnson, Tunney, Ali, Walcott, Charles, Shavers, Norton, and has pick em wars with Marciano and Dempsey. He loses to Foreman, and I am unsure of his chances with Liston, Louis, and Lewis (Lewis at his his safest and most cautious, any other version gets disembowled).

I think a big hitter would have a chance with Joe, but he could not be ordinary. Not because Joe's chin was dentable...it was stellar. But, he was open at times and could be hurt early. That beings aid, no ordinary big puncher beats Joe..he has to be special. He'd have to be able to finish Joe, and that is a tall order. I don't see big punchers lik Tyson or Shavers doing it.

I also think Frazier along with Marciano had the greatest determination of any champion.

Honestly, Joe had all you could want if your talking about "fighting". Incredible fighting spirit and character, a boxing samurai. No matter if he won or lost it would be impressively brutal. I don't think many men could stand against Joe at his best, he was that good.

I made a Frazier hilite because I searched and found none existed. Its kind of raw, but I'll upload it later.

Here it is.

www.megaupload.com/?d=GCRMQYGV (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GCRMQYGV)

Mr E
01-29-2006, 05:39 PM
I think it's a good point that just because you get wobbled from time to time does not mean you don't have a great chin-- particularly not when we're talking about heavyweights and particularly wehn we're talking about a heavyweight who got hit cleanly as often as Frazier did.

IMO, in his entire career, Frazier was clearly and legitimately "hurt" only by Oscar Bonavena, Eddie Machen, Manuel Ramos, Joe Bugner, Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. Of that group, the only 2 people who stopped him were Ali & Foreman -- and the only one who really crushed him was Foreman. Not bad at all.

On the other hand, of the really big hitters who fought during his career -- namely, Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle, Roy "Tiger" Williams, Jeff Merritt and George Foreman -- the only one Frazier fought was the one who obliterated him. Did Durham and Futch deliberately steer clear of that style, excepting only the Foreman blunder? Not sure.

My suspicion is that Frazier really did have a terrific chin, but I have to admit that I CAN appreciate the argument to the contrary.

Kid Achilles
01-29-2006, 10:56 PM
Ron Stander rocked him a bit in their fight as well.

In regards to my comments about Frazier, I just don't like to throw around the word "great". I think Gatti is a tough guy, very game and durable but he is visibly hurt in many of his fights and it's hard for me to consider his chin "great".

I think Frazier has, pound for pound, a better chin than Gatti but overall Chuvalo, Ali, Holmes, Cobb, McCall etc. are the names that go through my head when I think heavyweights with great chins. I think Frazier's chin was good/very good but really his physical conditioning, tenacity, and courage are what I think made him so durable. He was not impossible to hurt, but he was always in the fight.

If anything he had a rubber chin. It would give a bit when tested by serious force, but it always bounced back. I think Jack Dempsey had a similar chin.

kenmore3233
01-30-2006, 01:58 AM
On the subject of Frazier's chin, I find it interesting that he was twice hurt by Joe Bugner in their London 1973 fight.

In the fourth and tenth rounds, Bugner buckled Frazier's knees and snapped his head back with single, long right crosses to the jaw. Frazier was momentarily hurt on each occassion.

That Bugner could have done this to Frazier is surprising considering that Bugner was not a major puncher.

I'm not saying that Frazier wasn't extremely durable --he was-- but I don't think his chin was the absolute toughest out there.

Am I wrong?

TKO Tom
01-30-2006, 11:35 AM
What people tend to forget about Joe is that "The Fight" with Ali in '71 - for all intents and purposes - ruined Joe Frazier. He was never the same after that bout and never as good again.

Much of what happened after '71 happened as the result of the brutal Ali fight. Frazier was a win at all costs guy and in that particular case it cost him big-time.

I think Joe had a weaker chin after that fight. Foreman obviously destroyed him. Frazier pre-Ali was much different than Frazier post-Ali. After the '71 fight Joe only fought a toal of nine more times and I'm not counting the Jumbo Cummings ill-fated "comeback" in 1981.

Of those 9 fights he lost 4 of them - 3 by knockout. Joe was damaged goods after the Ali fight. What he did from 71-76 in those nine fights was done on fumes. It should be no surprise that Bugner stumbled him.

:hat

walsh b
01-30-2006, 04:15 PM
Very good point TKO. Frazier after Ali must hve lost some of that killer instinct and durability. Ali hit him with everything he had for 15rds and Frazier's face looked terrible. Foreman didn't do that much damage because he obviously got rid of Joe early. No man could ever really be the same after that type of punishment in 1971

So what if Frazier was wobbled by guys, my god that doesn't mean he had a 'good' chin and not a great chin. If Frazier had an average chin, then as far as I'm concerned there is no such word as great. Foreman could not clean KO the guy and I believe no other heavyweight would in a fight. Joe's head and neck were part of the reason he could take such a shot. His head rarely snapped back or jerked when he was hit. It barely moved. Apart from Foreman's power beating Joe it was also the fact that Foreman man handled him with brute strength, he was pushing and shoving him back like a kid. What other heavyweight can you imagine doing that to Frazier, so the key to beating Joe is to have a hiuge punch, but also be superior in strength to him as well.

That's why I don't think Louis, Tyson, Holmes, Dempsey, and even Marciano would beat him. They are not as physically big or strong as the peak Foreman and no strong enough to keep Joe off them long enough.

Bottom line is that Foreman pounded Frazier into submission, he didn't KO him....that's because of Joe's chin.

TKO Tom
01-30-2006, 04:39 PM
The Frazier from 68-71 was a killer. He would have hung with any heavyweight from any era at any time.

In Foreman, Joe ran into a guy that had his number - plain and simple.

But again, the Frazier from 68-71 would have mutilated Lennox Lewis, Hoyfield, Tyson, Norton, Holmes, Patterson. Obviously Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, and I think Sonny Liston, would have given him problems. I think Joe would have taken Dempsey.

:hat

walsh b
01-30-2006, 07:49 PM
I think Dempsey would have given him a tougher fight than Louis because Dempsey was more ferocious than Louis, an animal with real intent. He had a better chin I feel than Louis so I think he hangs with Frazier longer. Also he threw punches in bunches where as Louis seemed to always time his shots. Depsey threw from all angles at any time, sometimes wild but with real power. Dempsey's footwork was faster and more balanced than Louis. I also think Dempsey was physically stronger than Louis and would be able to pull and drag at Frazier better.

Maybe I am underestimating Louis, but I think his lack of that sort of rough hard and 'dirty' style will see him lose against the mighty durable, strong and granite Chinnned Frazier

Sharkey
01-31-2006, 07:37 PM
from what I have seen, I consider Frazier a sort of knock-off of Dempsey in a head to head sense.

Dempsey was faster, had TWO crushing hands and could actually box his way out of trouble. Couple that with his own brilliant in-fighting, and his lack of hesitation in delivering boatloads of punches (and his extraordinary recooperative powers) and I don't see Frazier having any sort of advantage over Dempsey.

Fights are not obviously won by assessing component pieces of a fighter's aptitude. I do not see Frazier being effective at swapping shots with Dempsey. Jack could be lazy, and so could Joe. both could be hurt, both could be staggered and dropped.

The difference to me is that Dempsey was as effectvie inside as Joe, and more effective on the way there. Frazier's defense against another crouching fighter is questionable to me, especially when that crouching fighter has his own left hook he can deliver over a shorter distance.

A few grains of salt.

Dan Gunter
01-31-2006, 08:22 PM
Frazier v. Dempsey: As with so many of these mythical matchups, I think that there are good arguments for supporters of both men. Perhaps more to the point: Just thinking about this fantasy matchup is thrilling: a rumble between two fierce wrecking machines.

When is someone going to invent a real "way-back" machine so we can make such dreams come true?

mike21
01-31-2006, 09:25 PM
love frazier, but hes in way over his head with dempsey or loius- no one handed hitter would ever beat them, sorry case closed.

walsh b
02-01-2006, 02:29 PM
Mike, to try and reason that Joe wouldn't have a chance against Louis or Dempsey because of 'one hand' is downright silly in my opinion. If Schmeling could beat Joe, then Frazier would kill him. Frazier had amazing stamina, power, heart, chin, workrate, temprament and an incredible will to win. No way does Louis or Dempsey steam roll this guy. He's be too fierce and relentless and tough for Louis. Non stop pressure with vicious punches being thrown, Louis and Jack gota KO him clean and early to win, I don't see that happening.

Kid Achilles
02-01-2006, 03:31 PM
I don't understand how Joe's loss to a patient counter puncher like Schmeling with a great right hand translates to how well he would do against a crouching, left hooking swarmer like Frazier. I agree that Frazier's pressure would make things difficult but he would also be right there to be hit, and Louis was an all time great puncher in regards to precision, quickness, and power.

Perhaps you could use the Galento fight for your argument, but even then Louis got right up and finished him off lickity split. I don't think Frazier's chin was any better than Galento's either. If Louis was able to reach you, you wouldn't be around for long.

I think Frazier has a better chance with Dempsey as much as I love the Mauler. With Louis though, I just can't see Frazier winning. Joe would exploit the holes in Frazier's defense the moment he was in range. Also Ali was never much of an infighter, which is half the reason Frazier was so successful against him in the first fight. Louis was much more adept (and powerfu) than Muhammad inside and had an uppercut and short left hook that could stop Frazier right in his tracks. Frazier wouldn't seem half as invincible against the Brown Bomber.

Sure Frazier has a chance, nearly all of the greats had a chance against one another, but I would favor Louis heavily in his match considering how many times Frazier was hurt in his career and how great a finisher Louis was. He would not let Frazier off the hook like Ali did in the second fight.

Louis by a early to mid round KO, before Joe can ever really start smokin'.

walsh b
02-01-2006, 05:53 PM
What if Frazier lands first, is that such an impossibility??. I also feel that Frazier's chin was superior to Louis'. Frazier also had a KO punch and I do not think Joe Louis was a defensive wizard, so Frazier will definitely land cleanly on him. It's a case of who not only lands first, but who takes a better wallop. I think Frazier at his peak had a good defense with the bob and weave style and I also think he would nail Louis a lot easier than he nailed Ali.

I love Louis for what he achieved and for the way he throws his shots and for his power and career but I just think on a head to head at their peaks, he loses to Ali, Foreman, Dempsey, Marciano and Frazier. His 'suspect' chin and lack of a real good defense means they all apart from maybe Ali will KO him.

mike21
02-01-2006, 06:44 PM
well i didnt explain it, i thought you would get the rough idea- frazier would give almost anyman fits- he was a great fighter- but in a 10 bout seris with a louis or dempsey, is lack of tactical surprise ,preditblity, mainly just look for the hook- his lack of tools and suspect chin would come into play. louis never had a great chin and mayber in 3 to 4 bouts fraziers crouch and pressure serves him well, the other time, luis a little too much of a two fisted walking time bomb for even joe. thanks

Mr E
02-01-2006, 06:51 PM
IMO, Frazier, great tho' he was, was just too easy to hit to cope with real fast, 2-handed bombers like Dempsey & Louis. I think both would just stand right in there w/ him and beat him to the punch and I'm not sure what Frazier could do about it.

Kid Achilles
02-01-2006, 07:56 PM
Exactly how I feel Mr. E. Frazier's swarming, crouching style would be hell for a Ali, Holmes, Lewis, or any heavyweight in history who tried to fight tall and employ the jab as a means of setting up the right hand but what would he do when faced with the superior firepower of a Joe Louis, who could knock a man out with one punch from either hand? Simply being a two handed puncher and not relying on a lead hook gives guys like Dempsey and Louis a wealth of options that weren't available to Joe.

Louis had better handspeed and didn't show his cards one bit. How would Smokin' Joe react to those punches that sometimes seemed to come out of nowhere (at least for the guy getting hit). Even Frazier's best punch, the lead hook, was a legendary weapon but technically it wasn't as short or tight as the one Joe Louis would often use inside.

Again my opinion on Frazier's chin seems to differ from others on this forum. I happen to lump it with Dempsey's. Not as good as Marciano's, nowhere near Cobb or Chuvalo status, but it was very durable. I can't imagine anyone standing over Frazier while the ref finished the ten count, but I can see him in so much trouble against Louis that the ref stops the whole thing. Then again, Louis had a penchant for utterly destroying iron chinned heavyweights like Baer and Uzcudan, so who knows.

Still, even if he isn't KO'ed with one shot, no way does Frazier absorb Louis's punches and keep coming forward with success like he did against Ali. To win he would have to avoid Louis's heavy artillery and get Louis with the hook over and over (as Louis was never, ever KO'ed by a single shot) through the course of several rounds. He'd have to get in and get out because Louis could be very dangerous on the inside with that short hook and the uppercuts.

A Frazier win is possible but not the probably outcome IMO.

A Bartholomew
02-14-2006, 04:14 AM
Frazier did have two handed power, but he had to adjust his strategy as his eyesight got worse. But in the 60's, he was knocking out opponents with a good right hand.

wildhawke11
02-14-2006, 02:10 PM
You know guys.
Sometimes we all my included think of our old time favourite fighters as being almost unbeatable when compared to maybe those who came perhaps only a few decades later. Lets be truly honest here and say. We have enough problems picking the winner of todays fights so how in hell can we possibly think we can get these fantasy fights right.

Having said that i will have a go, I think personally a peak prime Frazier would do ok against Louis. Louis i would be the first to admit is the number one or two best ever HW. But was any of his opposition as good as Frazier, Liston, Foreman or those who came a little later. I feel Louis liked to be in control and fight at a pace he liked. Frazier would be at him from the bell in this one, of course Louis could get the win. But Frazier i feel would put Louis in a position that he was not going to be comfortable with and that is being pressured and forced to make it a fight that really was not his game.

I can see Frazier getting one win in three against Louis. I wonder how we would feel about this fight if Frazier had never taken on Foreman. Maybe if Louis had met Big George we might have also be having a rethink on this particular match up.