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View Full Version : 20 GREATEST MEXICAN FIGHTERS OF ALL TIME



olympic auditorium
02-04-2006, 06:33 PM
HERE IS WHO I THINK DESERVES TO BE AMONG THE 20.IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER EXCEPT FOR THE 1ST 6.
1.JULIO CHAVEZ
2.RUBEN OLIVARES
3.MIGUEL CANTO
4.CARLOS ZARATE
5.SALVADOR SANCHEZ
6.VICENTE SALDIVAR
7.RICARDO LOPEZ
8.EFREN TORRES
9.JOSE MEDEL
10.JOSE BECERRA
11.KID AZTECA
12.BABY ARIZMENDI
13.PIPINO CUEVAS
14.LUPE PINTOR
15.CARLOS PALOMINO
16.GASPAR ORTEGA
17.RAFAEL HERRERA
18.JESUS CASTILLO
19.RODOLFO MARTINEZ
20.DANIEL ZARAGOZA

StingerKarl
02-04-2006, 11:02 PM
No Erik Morales or MAB?
I would have both of them in there to be sure.
I would say Carlos was Mexican-American, even though he was born in Mexico he did his fighting here and abroad for the most part and is an American citizen, as is Ortega.
Good list though, and I am pleased you rated Ruben so high and was glad to see the overlooked Rodolfo Martinez in there as well.
Karl

HEGrant
02-04-2006, 11:47 PM
What about Jose Luis Ramirez...? That man is highly underated. Why I don't know. I'd pick him way over a Cuevas or Palamino.

GorDoom
02-04-2006, 11:48 PM
I knew Jose Medel as a kid in Mexico very well. He also was a great fighter that had the misfortune of fighting during a golden age for banties. I idolised Jose as a kid but given that I still don't see how you can possibly rate him over the great champion, Jose Becerra.

Not only was Becerra a world champ - which Medel never was - but he beat Medel THREE times. What else could he have possibly done to be rated over Medel?

Makes absolutely no sense ... While your list includes a lot of the Mexican greats but there are mistakes like the Medel ranking & also glaring ommissions like Gato Gonzales, Alfredo Urbina, Battling Torres, Pajarito Moreno etc.

GorDoom

olympic auditorium
02-05-2006, 12:57 AM
KARL
I only included retired fighters.Youre right Karl Palomino more Mexican American and he mainly fought out of California.I WANTED to include Guty Espadas what do you think Karl?

hawk5ins
02-05-2006, 03:13 AM
was a bit of an inspiration here.

Their list of the Greatest Mexican fighters in latest edition of Boxing 2006 (no active Mexican fighters were included):

1-Chavez
2-Olivares
3-Canto
4-Zarate
5-Sanchez
6-Saldivar
7-R. Lopez
8-Kid Azteca
9-Jose Becerra
10-Humberto Gonzalez
11-Baby Arizmendi
12-Cuevas
13-Chalky Wright
14-Juan Zurita
15-Palomino
16-Jose Luis Ramirez
17-Pintor
18-Zaragoza
19-Rodolfo Gonzales
20-Pimental

My top 10 (actives included)-

1-Sanchez
2-Zarate
3-Chavez
4-Canto
5-R. Lopez
6-Olivares
7-Saldivar
8-Barrera
9-Morales
10-Arizmendi

GorDoom
02-05-2006, 03:35 AM
Hawk:

First off Chalky Wright wasn't Mexican, that's just a popular canard. 2nd, As I wrote earlier where are Urbina, Torres, Gato & Moreno?

Without them no list of Mexican fighters is complete ... & I just thought of another one, Raton Macias.

GorDoom

gregbeyer
02-05-2006, 04:43 AM
rodolfo "el gato" gonzalez.....35 straight ko's . the most consecutive ko's of any champion in history...rated by ring magazine as one of the alltime best punchers.....81-7-1 71 ko's is not even on your list. cannot respect the research of a greatest mexican list that he is not on. research further please.
greg






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GorDoom
02-05-2006, 04:48 AM
Couldn't have said it better myself, Greg.

GorDoom

Dan Hanley
02-05-2006, 03:19 PM
Speaking of research, I wish William Detloff, who is a fine writer, would have done a little better research on El Gato before rating him at only 19. He begins his first paragraph by lauding Gato's stats but leaves the reader believing he was strictly a banger. Detloff needs to get a copy of the Carmona fight and watch Gonzalez looking like a hard punching Willie Pep the way he was in and out, impeccable footwork and offering angles way before Sweet Pea's time. This was not a one dimensional fighter. Also, he glosses over the 3 year layoff as if he lost and then lost heart. Why did he layoff? Oh yeah, now I remember. He almost died, that's why. He refers to him as streaky. 7 losses in 89 fights is streaky? Because when he came back, he mentions that he lost to Bobby Valdez and Alton Colter as if they were nobody. Actually, how would you like to come back after 3 years out of the ring and get thrown in with Valdez, who would enter Ring mags ratings and compete in the elimination tourney to find a successor to Vicente Saldivar's featherweight title. And Colter, who would go on to become the number 2 contender in Ring's Jr. Lightweights and beat Fighting Harada, in Japan no less, just before Harada was robbed against Johnny Famechon in Australia. Again, it was a decent enough piece, but it had holes in it and leads one to think he was strictly a bruiser.

Dan

olympic auditorium
02-05-2006, 05:48 PM
EVERYONE IS GOING TO COME UP WIH 20 DIFFERENT FIGHTERS.WHO MAKES THE LIST AND WHO DOESNT WILL ALWAYS BE A DISAGREEMENT.I DIDNT RATE MEDEL ABOVE BECERRA .I STATED THERE WAS NO ORDER.AS FOR RAMIREZ OVER KING PALOMINO AND CUEVAS ,I MUST DISAGREE.RAMIREZ BEAT THE REGULARS BUT WHAT HAPPENED WHEN HE FOUGHT NAME GUYS?HE FOLDED.NO DISRESPECT TO GATO BUT IMO HE FALLS A LIYYLE SHORT OF THIS LIST.35 STRAIGHT KO'S RIGHT BUT TAKE A LOOK AT OPPOSITION.DO SOME RESEARCH AND LOOK AT SOME OF THESE GUYS RECORDS.TAKE A LOOK AT YORI BOY CAMPAS RECORD ,HOW MANY KO'S DID HE HAVE BEFORE HE FOUGHT TRINIDAD?IMPRESSIVE RECORD RIGHT?TRINIDAD DESTROYED HIM.SHOULD YORI BOY BE AMONG THE 20 GREATEST?NO.CARMONA WON THE TITLE FROM A SHOT FIGHTER IN MANDO RAMOS.CARMONA WAS A GOOD FIGHTER BUT GATO WAS JUST BETTER.SO YOU CAN GET A FEEL WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT LOOK AT HOW THEYRE BUILDING UP J.C.CHAVEZ JR.I NOT SAYING THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO GATO,BUT QUESTION MARKS DO LITE UP .RATON MACIAS AND GUTY ESPADAS HAVE TO BE CONSIDERED FOR THIS LIST TOO.

hawk5ins
02-06-2006, 11:03 AM
The list of 20 came from the Ring, as Dan mentiones, specifically Bill Detloff. His lists always seem rushed. You can see where he puts in some time in certain areas, but then the rest of it seems like he through it together to make a deadline.

The Chalky Wright was Mexican part caught me off guard as well. I'm going to peak into to that one as well.

Dan Hanley
02-06-2006, 03:31 PM
I remember in Peter Heller's book 'In this Corner' where it was first brought up that Chalky Wright was no Mexican. One of the fighters interviewed mentioned that Wright used to just go around telling everyone he was from Durango, Mexico. I don't know what that was about. Regarding El Gato, Olympic brings up a good point about Rodolfo's early career and those fighters which boxrec show as 0-0. Were they really 0-0? Or was it just that their records weren't known? We recently had a discussion on one of these threads about that recently. El Gato himself said these were very experienced fighters as you could see by some of them who had ventured into the States whose records were known. Alot of great fighters had these 0-0 tags on them. If you discount El Gato's then you must also discount Julio Cesar Chavez, Gaspar Ortega, Jose Luis Ramirez, Duilio Loi, Marcel Cerdan, etc., etc. Moreover, El Gato strung his record together between the age of 14-17, no mean feat.

Dan

gregbeyer
02-06-2006, 07:24 PM
hey oly,

all those caps hurt my eyes. why are you shouting?

dan,

by just looking at gatos record it is easy to see how many people consider him just a banger. i saw him in person many times and this is just not the case. the guy was a precision mechanic.

to everybody,

anyones early record can suffer scrutiny but the 0-0 records mean nothing. in those days info was not as readily available as today. the reason i am so much in favor of gato in the hall is because he was one of the best i ever saw.
greg

hawk5ins
02-06-2006, 08:20 PM
So it looks like Detloff is just repeating without researching. As Bill does cite the alleged cite of Wright's birth. Not surprising.

I need to flip through Heller's book agian.

Thanks

gregbeyer
02-06-2006, 10:22 PM
and nothing that you read. thats a little harsh... but some of the stuff that goes un-researched and gets printed anyway is surprising....i read one article about rodolfo gonzalez that stated he won the title from chango carmona...from south africa??? maybe the name chango brought to mind monkeys and therefore that origin...but jeese...a little research please.
greg

StingerKarl
02-07-2006, 12:48 AM
I would include Rodolfo in the top 20 as well, yes.
They are all great regardless.