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HEGrant
12-31-2005, 07:29 AM
I have been watching a hell of a lot of Joe Louis bouts over the past few weeks. I mean entire bouts, not clips. It has proven to be an interesting study. I have come to the following conclusions:

1. Louis was a devestating puncher with either hand. Lightning quick. Murderous power. He could truly knock you out with either hand. He threw more perfect, powerful punches than any other man I have ever seen. No one comes close. Jab, hook, cross, uppercut with either hand.

2. Louis was not fast footed. He could be outspeeded and confused by movement. It kept him from being able to set himself properly. Taken out of position, he could be nullfied. This was proven by Pastor, Conn and Walcott.

3. Louis had serious problems with men who effectively fought out of crouches. It offest his timing...be it Tony Galento or Arturo Godoy, it was a big issue for Joe.

4. Louis was not the smartest fighter in the world. Everyone knows that Louis was legendary in rematches. Iy is because between fights his trainers could reprogram him to make changes for specific styles Joe simply was not swift enough to make on his own in the ring during the first bout. His immense physical skills surpassed his gear changing skills to a degree. Again this is proved by Pastor, Gogoy and Walcott among others...

Despite the weaknesses, there were very few men that ever fought that could really , effectively exploit these chinks and actually beat Joe. He was that devestating. Any stand up boxer , no matter his size, would get crushed by Louis. ANY. He would murder any of the recent giants be it a Lennox Lewis, a Riddick Bowe, a Kli Sr. , a Rachman...there is no doubt in my mind it would be murder. Joe, not easy to hit in his own right, would slip inside and crush these guys. He would have zero problem reaching tall men. He did it all the time with zero problem. He would have murdered Holyfield because Evander would abandon boxing and trade. At that point it would be onesided. Joe was too fast and hard punching. Again I stress, you have to study the fils to appreciate the versitility of his power punches. I also feel he would KO Liston or Foreman. He was slick enough to avoid their power but would be much quicker and hit them toohard too fast too often. Both would be KO'ed.

Ali would have been very, very tough for Joe. His speed, size, chin, heart and stamina would have made it a very difficult style match up. Part of me thinks Joe might chase him all over the ring like Tito to Oscar. However, I never saw him do that in any fight. I saw him plod after guys. He simply might not have had that type of foot work necessary to be effective that way. I know Ray Robinson mention this as Joe's weakness in his autobiography, However, there is no question that Joe always had the highest level of puncher's chance.

Holmes would have had a tough match up for Louis but he'd absolutely have tobe the Holmes from Shaver's 1 or it would be lights out. Larry had a huge heart but if sim[ly thought he'd jab and flatfoot it he'd get caught and stopped. A top Holmes would be a pick'em.

I am somewhat convinced that Jack Johnson would have done a number on Joe. Johnson was an exceptional defensive fighter that would have taken Joe out of his game. I feel he had the speed, size , strength and power to beat Louis.

The other great boxer's be it a Corbett, Tunney or who ever simply lacked the size and strength to defy Joe over 15. He'd catch them and end it. Look at the Charles bout. At 36 and out of shape Louis lost a clean decision that is very deceiving if you actually watch the whole fight. It was not Ali/Holmes. Joe was very competitiv most of the fight, losing the rounds but being dangerous in each. He shut Ezzard's eye with his jab. He simply was unable to get off at that age and with that inactivity. In his prime he would have stopped Ezzard within 10.

For the first time I am starting to believe that Dempsey really had a serious shot of beating Louis. At his best Jack had the combination of speed, crouching style, iron chin and killer power to make it a very, very interesting fight. If you study the Galento and Godoy fights, you will see what I mean. My old theory of Dempsey wildly coming in and getting cut down has been revised by studying the films of both men. Dempsey was a lot more like a young Duran. He was much faster than Galento, much stronger than the strong Godoy and hit much harder with either hand than either.

More later...

walsh b
12-31-2005, 03:46 PM
Excellent post mate....I agree fully with you. Louis threw to me the best short hard and fast punches ever. His KO of Walcott is myb alltime favorite, precison speed and power. Though he will always find it hard against a fast moving big Heavy like Ali...Joe's slow feet wpuld be exploited by an Ali, also his suspect chin would be his downfall against Dempsey or Marciano. It's funny because I think Louis at his best was so beautiful to watch, but he was also very beatable......

Kid Achilles
12-31-2005, 04:20 PM
You're spot on when you say his punches are beautiful to watch but I don't think he was very beatable. There's been perhaps a handful of men in over a hundred years of gloved boxing that would have stood a decent chance of beating him when he was at his best. I wouldn't call that very beatable.

Roberto Aqui
12-31-2005, 04:44 PM
[[[[I have come to the following conclusions:]]]]]]]
=============================

I agree with the gist of your 4 conclusions, but must add in that Joe was not a dumb fighter either. You don't put up all those fights, most all noncontroversial, by being mediocre in brains and ring generalship.

I disagree with many of your assessments against other champions, the larger ones specifically. Getting to Baer or Carnera is one thing, but put Lewis or Bowe in Joe's 6 oz gloves with their power, size, and boxing skills, Joe is gonna have a big field to plow with no mule.

Put a stationary Joe in Vitali's 10 oz gloves and you'll need an adding machine to count up the KDs as Joe starts hitting the deck.

Big George? He loved stationary fighters who slugged. Sure, Joe can box too, but he's still stationary. Joe will always have a punchers chance and could maybe take some fighters into deeper waters with careful boxing, but Joe was always the slugger in all his bouts, and against some of these bigger/stronger champs it's just false to assume he could treat them like he did his contenders without a change in his gameplan.

brutu
12-31-2005, 07:49 PM
I dont know if one can say just how good Joe Louis really was.
IMOP,He fought his toughest opposition prior to becoming heavyweight champion in 1936,
and when his carrer was winding down and he was getting older in the later 1940's

kikibalt
12-31-2005, 08:23 PM
Put a stationary Joe in Vitali's 10 oz. gloves and you'll need an adding machine to count the KD as Joe starts hiiting the deck

Shit i think i'm going to die laughing

Frank B.

Walker Smith
12-31-2005, 08:39 PM
Joe Louis is exactly the kind of fighter that would've flattened Vitali Klitschko.

Vitali is nothing special. His best punch was his predictable sequential jab which would've been easily timed by Louis, who was an expert at doing such.

Roberto Aqui
12-31-2005, 10:07 PM
[[[[Joe Louis is exactly the kind of fighter that would've flattened Vitali Klitschko.

Vitali is nothing special. His best punch was his predictable sequential jab which would've been easily timed by Louis, who was an expert at doing such. ]]]]
================================

Hmmm, VK's sequential jab was so predictable that almost nobody could beat him. Max Schmeling also had a predictable sequential jab that did a number on Joe.

Look, it's easy to pile on Vitali or Tyson. Heck I could pile on Joe and claim the usual criticisms of Joe. I'm just saying that Joe would not just walk through ALL of these big champs like some of you seem to think. Put a 200 lb Joe in the modern era with 10 oz gloves, and how much power is he going to have left?

Could Joe have even handled Willard down in that 45 rd fight in Havana? Willard had a predictable sequential jab. On paper, Patterson is too skilled, too fast, too powerful for Ingo. Ingo punched out the paper in their first fight with his right, his only weapon. All little 'enery Cooper had was his left hook against Ali. Some still say he beat Ali that first fight.

Walker Smith
12-31-2005, 10:08 PM
Max Schmelling didn't beat Joe Louis with his jab. He beat him with a well rounded attack, including one hell of a right hand. He didn't just throw jab after jab with the occasional right while keeping his opponent out of reach, like some Ukranian mentioned in this thread. He was smart.

Vitali Klitschko had a two-pronged attacked--jab-straight right, jab-right. Schmelling could actually mix it up.

Louis may not walk through the big Klit easily, but he beats him in a best of 3 or 10 or 100. And he doesn't need a gut-check performance the way you make it sound. I believe in a best of ten, he wins most of the fights without suffering a knockdown. Just my opinion.

HEGrant
12-31-2005, 10:14 PM
Joe was much faster than Foreman, much more mobile and threw a far sharper, straighter and diversified quality of punches...remember Foreman in the Lyle fight...picture him against Louis and he does not get up.

Continued...

I do not include Marciano in the fighters who would have succeeded in the crouch against Louis...Rocky was too small and too slow...this is the huge difference between him and Dempsey...Dempsey had superior size and more importantly far more speed. I see Louis chopping Rocky up and stopping him in eight or so...

Tyson is another puzzle...he would be extremely dangerous..his best shot would be a very early blitz but keep in mind that Louis was also a very fast starter..it would be a very tough call ...the longer it went the better for Louis...

kikibalt
01-01-2006, 01:15 AM
Joe Louis or Vitali Klitschko ?
VK was good enough to carry Louis gym bag

Frank B.

kikibalt
01-01-2006, 01:26 AM
BTW Schmelling beat Louis with his right hand , b/c Louis at that point in time had a bad habit of jabing an bringing his left hand back very low an Schmelling would shoot his right over Louis's low left hand

Frank B.

HEGrant
01-01-2006, 02:21 AM
Joe would have murdered Willard...look at what Dempsey did to him...that was out of the gate, not when the wear and tear of old age set in...no one hit harder and faster, no one.

The Schmeling series is exactly my point about Louis having to be programmed...Schmeling was a very good but far from great fighter. He was beaten many times before he ever fought Louis, knocked out a few times as well. Max saw the chink and exposed it. Louis learned to defend and destroyed him.

Lennox Lewis, who I happen to like and respect, could not land a straight hand, his most dangerous weapon , on an older Evander Holyfield in 24 rounds of fighting...he would have had the same problems with Louis except when Joe cornered him in the third round like Evander did he would end it.

I am telling youthese big stand up guys were made for him. Louis had an exceptional ability to come in either underneith or from a side angle and throw murderous combinations...you really have to watch a lot of his fights to begin to appreciate what the man was capable of...he was a real highlight film.

Steve McV
01-01-2006, 02:27 AM
Exactly! Schmeling had spotted something Louis did wrong and capitilized on it.

Also, please keep in mind that Schmeling was a damn good fighter with considerable skill and better than average power. He may not have been the best heavyweight champion ever, but he sure wasn't the worst. Drop Schmeling into the era between Holmes and Tyson and I think we would have won a unified crown.

Louis against Vitali? Louis by clean KO round 4, and they haul the big fella away on a stretcher!

mike21
01-01-2006, 12:43 PM
he great post- louis never got his tail down against crouchers- he went with what got him there instead of slight adjustment. i doubt louis would have survived against dempsey or maybe johnson. watch the godoy fights, he was too staight up and not well balanced.

HEGrant
01-01-2006, 01:23 PM
What's interestingi s how he was able to make adjustments between fights...there was only four months seperating the Godoy fights...in the first fight Joe could do absolutely nothing with him...he was simply frozen in his tracks...this went on for fifteen rounds..in the rematch, it was a different Louis...he was much more aggressive right at the bell...he shifted side to side and pummeled Godoy to the body...he caused him to drop his hands and eventually blasted the sh-t out of his with murderous shots,,,

Godoy was no wimp...he was a rock solid 6'1" or so and weighted about 205..he had an iron chin...he had over seventy fights and had never been off his feet. However, Louis chopped him down with his usual assortment of blazing, devastating punches...really bloodied him up..it was nasty to watch...

Too many people today who do not know better write off Joe as having a shaky chin...it is not the case...let's be specific about it...

Joe was suspectible to the occassion flash knockdown. He went down against Braddock and Galento that way when caught..However, both were very hard punchers...still, he got up fast, recovered almost immediately, and came back to flatten the guys...similiar to Tito Trinidad but tougher...

Schmeling was a very hard right hand puncher..that was his biggest weapon...yes he knocked Louis out in their first fight but what is rarely mentioned is that that fight proved how good Louis' chin was ...

Joe took far too many of those right hands in that fight...Schmeling bombed him dozens of times with his best shots, almost to the point where he exhausted himself...this was not in just one round, this was time and again over 12...it was a terrible beating Joe took. When he was finally stopped in the 12th , the film clips we have all seen time and again mislead as if hLouiswas flattened by a right in the fourth and another in the 12th...the clips skip all the action in between. That leaves a false impression that just a couple of rights stopped Louis. You need to watch the fight to know the story...

In reality, that fight would have been stopped much earlier today. In losing, Louis showed both a tremendous heart and a tremendous ability to absorb punishment. It is a huge testiment to his heart that he was able to come back from that fight at all... many , many men would never have been the same after taking such a beating...Louis was back in the ring three months later flattening Jack Sharkey...

The only way to really know about these greats is to study entire films of as many of their bouts as possible...with Louis we are so lucky that many exist...as far as Johnson and Dempsey go, there are far fewer....it makes it really hard to see them against different styles on different nights...before Dempsey it is almost all speculation...we are really going on what we read, which also reflects the perspective not only of the writer but the time as well. As I've written here time and again, we really don't have a clue if Jeffries was a first rate talent or simply a highly respectable Chavalo of his day fighting smaller men.

After studying Louis, I can say that I believe he was one of the very best that ever lived. His skills were amazing...Paul Pender once said something very interesting about Ray Robinson...he said that they have it wrong about Ray, that he was not the greatest boxer that ever lived but that he was the greatest puncher, that he could throw the fastest assortment of powerful punches that coud defeat a man...granted he was talking about the old Robinson that he fought but I'd make a similiar point about Louis...

Louis threw the fastest, hardest assortment of punches I have ever seem. Far more diversified than Tyson's hooks. Louis threw a beautiful , very hard jab...even in his three losses, the victors were all busted up from it...his right cross, his left hooks, his body shots and uppercuts were all explosive and lightning fast...while he was possibly beatable, it would be done by very few men, and who knows if they could have done it twice ? It is a real joy to watch the man fight.

mike21
01-01-2006, 01:40 PM
oh yeah, well louis if i had to rate fighters imo, was the very best since his time, with always a question mark, and dempsey number one, again with a question mark- im a little more confident in dempsey than louis- louis may have had a hell of a chin but he was not confident in his own toughness- i do not think he ever really, fully got over the knockdowns suffered in his first amatuer fight. just my opinion- of course he had a great heart. dempsey, of course, was never tkod or out- the flynn fight was a tank job. gotta go

HEGrant
01-01-2006, 02:31 PM
We can question Dempsey a bit as well....Dempsey by his own admitance said he was knocked down many times early in his career...Dempsey was clearly rocked in the second round by Carpentier, a light heavy....Dempsey was rocked seriously by Brennan, Dempsey was dropped, a flash but still, by Tunney, no major hitter...Dempsey was rocked badly by Sharkey, another tough guy but no majot hitter...

My point is that yes he was only stopped once in his whole career and who knows the story with that one but he as hurt quite a bit...hurt that could have been exploited by better fighters (maybe)

More to come...

mike21
01-01-2006, 07:36 PM
he- as you should know, how many times was demosey knock down when he weighted over 165? three times. how many exhibitions of which many knockdowns were scored by dempsey and he himself never even slipped-180. in 260 fights, dempsey may have been knocked out once- but thats like saying fox kod lammatta- dempsey was NEVER

mike21
01-01-2006, 07:48 PM
koed. and you should know that dempsey was half starved until he met kearns- still fighting in saloons, living in caves and hobojungles, and eating out of garbage disposal- its a goddamn miracle the man survived. take 20 or more pounds off of any heavy and starve him up, and see JUST how tough and determined he is and see if he doesnt see the kos registered next to his name. take 20 pounds off of louis or ali and have him pospone many a meal- theyed be kissing the canvas more than they did in the amatuers.anyhow, dempsey had one of the GREAT chins ever and unlike ali, chuvalo, cobb, jeffries, and louis, was never REALLEY kod and if you do not believe the eyewitness reports; well thats a problem- soderman and cox figured it all out pretty good.

PeteLeo
01-01-2006, 07:51 PM
"Louis threw the fastest, hardest assortment of punches I have ever seen" . . . hmm, seems to me like just a couple of moons ago when I nominated Joe L. as the hardest puncher among the heavies, there were some shrill, angry denials flying about the board . . . .
Nah, it was probably only my imagination.

HAPPY NEW YEAR! you rough and tumble guys. I hope you're enjoying your hangovers as much as I'm savoring my own. PeteLeo.

Chuck1052
01-01-2006, 09:08 PM
Within the past few weeks, I saw a PBS
production about the impact of the
rivalry between Joe Louis and Max
Schmeling. I don't know if the
said production explains fully how
Louis rose like a rocket in the boxing
world and that white boxing fans
flocked to see him in action during
the depths of the GREAT DEPRESSION.
When looking at the newspapers of the
period, one finds alot of veteran white boxing
writers who professed to enjoy watching
Louis in action. Forget the race angle for
a moment.....Louis was a thrilling,
"all-business" fighter who dominated the
sport during the 1930s and much of the
1940s.

- Chuck Johnston

Roberto Aqui
01-02-2006, 12:10 AM
If Joe kept his left too low against Schmeling, just think how low it's going to be against Vitali.

Look, Vitali was clocked by a 250 lb HOF power punching heavyweight repeatedly in a tough fight and never went down. How on earth some of you think a 200lb Louis in 10 oz gloves is gonna punch harder than Lennox Lewis is a mystery to me.

Joe was down several times in his career against much smaller men. Vitali never down against much larger more powerful fighters.

I love Joe and rank him the best heavy ever, but in one on one match ups he just don't always come out ahead because of a combination of size and style. Like I state, put Foreman, Tyson and Lewis in 6 oz gloves and watch the carnage begin. Sure, Joe will have a fine chance in any matchup of champs and is a favorite in most. Let's not kid ourselves that the best ever would win all his bouts against fellow champs.

There is that segment that thinks great HOF heavies like Burns and Fitz could defeat Vitali or even Byrd. I can only respond with "whatever."

Hagler04
01-02-2006, 06:22 AM
Roberto. ot has nothing to do about how much Lennox weighed. Knockouts and knockdowns are about speed, precision, and timing, even moreso then pure power. Louis had the latter and the first three in spades. Lennox the night he fought Vitali was so off balance and timing wise shot he looked amateurish, and being 38 and having a year layoff after a fight will do that to you.

Klitschko's right hand was not nearly as fast or as well timed as Schmeling, who, if you watch the film, not only lands the super fast, perfectl timed right hand over Joe, but follows up with a blistering 5 punch combo that Vitali has never even dreamed to throw. Joe's short and very fast precision punching is absolutely a big man's nightmare. Louis could slip Vitali's slow jab all night and step inside with the quicker punches, like the C grade Sanders did a few times and Herbie Hide did earlier before his glass chin caught up to him, and really hurt Klitschko.

Louis knocks out Vitali inisde 5 rounds clean.

HEGrant
01-02-2006, 10:00 AM
Exactly...Lewis in 24 rounds could not tag Holyfield with his best right...he was too slow...

naf2003
01-02-2006, 05:05 PM
I am not trying to disrespect anyone, but it would be interesting to find out what some of you think.

Carlos Zarate had 63 knockouts in 66 fights, his timing, speed, etc. must have been excellent. Do you guys, who think size and strength are irrelevant (or at least not major factors) in boxing think Zarate could knock out Vitali? If not, at what weight does size/strength become a factor?

Walker Smith
01-02-2006, 05:59 PM
That's an interesting point. I was talking with a local amateur over beers who fights at 190 and usually is matched against other people at 190. He said the first time he was thrown in against a 210- pounder, he realized that the punches that used to keep fighters back were not having any effect and he was just walking through them. Of course, this is just one account, but consider for a moment how often we've seen this in the professional ranks.

I'm not sure if your post was aimed as an attack against the above arguments about speed, agility and power, but I'd say though that weight is a significant factor. Nonetheless, so is talent. Joe Louis wasn't just any ordinary puncher. Neither was Zarate, but to expect him to make up over 130 pounds is quite a leap.

Joe Louis, in a modern era with advanced training techniques and advanced medical knowledge, probably weighs heavier than 200 pds, which would lead to a smaller gap between him and the modern heavyweights. I don't think Vitali at that proportionate weight would walk through Louis' heavy barrage.

mike21
01-02-2006, 06:42 PM
whenever someone throws in the weight lifting stuff, well its laughable. weight gain is also something to be very carefully. if ones speed ,balance and power is compromised, hes better off 9 out of ten, being at his most EFFECTIVE weight. perhaps todays heavys are better on average, but average id just that. guys like louis,demspey, tunny, johnson were very superoir -fighters and fighters first- they were just super talented.to me lewis and klitsko were just ti clumsy to deal with the hard, brick in your face ,slammed very quickly in variation to beat louis ,whom was also very well schooled; more times in a 10 or 100 bout seris then via versa. anybody can say anything about the oppositin of any fighter, but on the whole i believe the top contenders since the 20 were not much different from any other time, with some individual exceptions. i do tend to believe that the heavys pre 60 were generally better schooled and experienced- smarter- and the between war fighters just a little to tough and cagey all around than perhaps anyother time, with definate exceptions. thanks

HEGrant
01-02-2006, 09:49 PM
Walk through his punches ? I don't even know where this sort of question comes up for debate...it makes zero sense...

Ali had a great chin...I think it;s safe to say he had at least as great a chin as Klit. Sr. ;) .. that being the case, Ali was serious hurt and almost stopped by a 188 pound Cooper and a 204 pound Frazier, not to mention a 211 pound Shavers....are we to believe that Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey did not hit as hard as Cooper or Frazier ? Maybe, a huge maybe, Shavers hits harder with his right for one shot than Louis...Louis hit much faster and much harder with his left...

My point is that Dempsey at 188 or Louis at 200 hit more than hard enough to flatten any of these big men...both fought many big men in their day and not only had zero problems hitting them, they flattened them...

Need I remind anyone that Jeff Willard at 6'6" and 245 pounds had a granite jaw and Dempsey made putty out of him ?

mike21
01-02-2006, 11:41 PM
mr. grant and readers- i do not know off hand who said -walk through punches- of joe louis- but that isnt just misinformed and delusionlal, its physchotic. NO MAN THAT EVER WILL LIVE UNLESS ARMOURED could ever walk through louis punches- you HAVE GOT TO BE OUT OF MIND to think so. no disrespect but if you spend time in a gym- you better spend alot more time. mr. grant i dont get some of iditots- no disrespect. ive agreed to disagree with you at times but i i always consider and respect your opinions. i firmly believe some of these guys never spent more than a month in a gym to observe whats realley going on.as far as the generic comment of heavys overall but especially of the between war group and others before, i believe some of the toughness they had often to extreme degress and their caginess could many times off set the extra weight of post 80s heavys- but this is never a certainty no any unique opinion here. walk through louis punches- a cheech and chong may say- you out of your f- mind. ill tone it down now gd. thanks

Walker Smith
01-03-2006, 12:03 AM
I think you guys are looking for argument where there is none. I don't think any sane man believes that anybody could walk through Louis' punches. However, at some weight classes, the weight difference does sometimes have an impact. However, with a guy like Louis, that goes out the window.

HEGrant
01-03-2006, 12:33 AM
I'm not looking for an argument here..just stating my own thoughts...Dempsey and Louis both fought huge, well conditioned, world class fighters...there is no question there...

Dempsey and Louis both flattened huge heavyweights...no question there...

I personally think the era and question of these huge fighters are pretty much over and answered...

It started with Bowe and Lewis, then graduated with the Klit Brothers...

Bowe's career as a world class fighterwas short and ended in a disappointing fashion...he had three wars with an older, smaller Holyfield...if Evander was a bigger puncher, he would have KO'ed Bowe all three times...

Lewis was the best of them by far ...he was a great fighter...his chin was reachable but when focused he was a very tough fighter...his right hand was explosive and he had a huge heart...however, he could not even land his big right hand in 24 rounds against Evander...not once...against a smaller man (the size of Louis if Joe fought today) Lennox could not seriously land enough to hurt him...

Both Klit Brothers, while talented, were flawed...Jr. has a china chin and that would not last ...Sr. is more solid if less offensively talented but suffered from physical breakdowns his whole career...we are now faced with him as an incomplete...we do know that he was not lightning fast by any means and that he had an issue with stamina...

All the other bigger guys such as Rachman, Witherspoon, whoever are not much bigger at all than a Louis would have been if he fought today under todays conditioning and diets...in fact Joe, an inch or so shorter, had much bigger legs than any of them...

Ronald Lipton
01-03-2006, 02:58 AM
Excellent thread and excellent assesments of Joe.

Quite simply, I too have studied Joe in painstaking detail for decades, every move.

He would have destroyed them all just as you said.

I cannot even bring myself to comment on the Vitali thing, as it is a sin to mention them in the same breath.

Joe would have problems with Ali but always the puncher's chance. Dempsey v Louis would be awesome and a swap session no one would ever forget.

I do not agree that 6' 195lb Jack Johnson would beat Joe
at 6'1 1/2 199. Joe to me was by far a greater fighter in all ways and would have knocked out Johnson with his short lightning fast combos.

Joe would destroy the rest and I believe that deeply.
Never underestimate the power of the Brown Bomber.

robertk
01-03-2006, 10:00 AM
Ron;

Don't you just love the way Louis didn't telegraph his punches? That left hook sizzled and you couldn't see it coming. And a jab right down the pipe.

Even a guy like me can see what what the current heavies are doing before they do it. No mystery and I guess the biggest "surprise" punches in recent memory are the early tyson follow ups > his initial shot. And was he ever effective with those power shots. But who else?

You may or may not agree with this theory, but I think recent heavies do not posess the defensive skills to cope w/ a non-telegrapher. Guys like holmes and lewis got by with their boxing radar and physical advantages. I'm not convinced that holds up against opponents that don't telegraph everything they are going to do.

Another factor that ties into this theory of mine is to just look at any recent heavy that was accurate. They were all effective and had good careers--in spite of other flaws--because they could easily penetrate a defense.

Sorry for the long winded explanation, but to me anyway, it's a pleasure to watch a guy like Louis in there. Beautiful. And aside from his average footspeed, everything else he does is top notch. When he threw an uppercut it was off perfect balance and deadly. In his biography, louis said blackburn made him pick up pebbles on the fly when he jogged for balance. I just think defensively, aside from say an ali and those reflexes of his, these guys are going to get hit clean from an accurate ko guy w/ power in both hands.

Mr E
01-03-2006, 04:02 PM
1st post was an excellent one, HE-- not sure I agree 100% w/ everything, but good analysis.

Re Dempsey being 'rocked' by Carpentier, tho', I have to say I've watched that clip a zillion times and, IMO, it just did not happen. The Mauler takes a step and a half back, if that, and goes right on about his business. Knees never buckle, barely a stop in the assault. IMO, that ain't 'rocked.'

One thing I want to say about Louis and boxers is that he beat 2 very very good ones in Conn and Pastor. [Look at Pastor's record-- he beat all those great black heavyweights of the 40s that everyone ELSE, including, some say, Louis, was avoiding.]

JimmyShimmy
01-03-2006, 09:34 PM
Both Johnson and Dempsey over Louis.

Johnson more so because of his frustrating and economic style.

When Johnson was 'on' he was a sharp and a thumb tack, as strong as an Ox, as clever as Hawking and as frustrating as a bigger brother. Here he would beat Louis at his own game of counter-punching. He'd pop that jab, sent in those sharp rights and control the ring, always distributing the majority of his weight on that rear foot to lean back n' avoid or spring forward with the straight stuff.

Louis was not that hard to nail as his feet were always planted to unleash some hell, but Johnson's boxing (stalling, countering/feinting) would mess up Louis' boxing.

I believe Johnson would batter him to a late TKO.

Dempsey is at more risk because of the range he worked at. Here Louis could so some damage, but I'm in agreement with the old timers who felt the Toledo Dempsey would choose his moment and then sail in with some dynamite that'd crack Louis' foundations beyond repair very early on.

That aside the fact nearly all of Louis' career was filmed is a joy to behold. Watching the slightly raw, and very eager Louis take out the likes of Ramage is kinda moving. He could do it all already, but needed to tighten those strings.

I love his fight with King Levinsky. Louis has a spring to his step as he jogs to a neutral corner after landing some bombs. He quickly tip toes back to work, and with a long cocked right (reminiscent of Tyson/Johnson) Louis cracks him and timbeeerrr!

HEGrant
01-04-2006, 12:04 AM
Dempsey/Louis might really have been a series where eavh guy was capable of beating the other a number of times...there is no question that either man could have knocked out the other, they were both that deadly..

I would think Dempsey had a great shot early...both started fast but Dempsey was much quicker on his feet and that plus his crouching style might give him the advantage needed to get off first...Dempsey had the better wiskers but when your fighting Louis it did not really matter...anyone he hit with any consistency was getting knocked out...Max Baer had an iron chin and Louis destroyed him...

As I wrote earlier, I think Louis had a very underated chin but I think Dempsey had exceptional recoopeative powers, which might have allowed him to survive a few tough early moments...

I could see in their first bout Dempsey catching him with something real hard early that serious hurts Louis...Louis fights through it and tags Jack serious as well but Dempsey roars back and stops him ...

I can just as easily see Louis doing that same thing in reverse...

Hagler04
01-04-2006, 08:46 PM
As someone who sparred guys over 200 lbs regularly at 165, I can assure you any 190 lber can seriously hurt and knockout a big HW if he has an ounce of power and proper technique (and I've seen it happen on film and in person many times). I never got any knockdowns but I was able to hurt and stun the big guys on several occasions, and I couldn't even get above 170 if I'd gone on a week long binge of McDonalds and steaks.

Anyone see what Louis did to the Bear brothers, Simon, and Carnera . . .all VERY big guys, in the case of the Baers also having very strong chins. It's almost comical to watch.