View Full Version : Pryor/Arguello 1

10-14-2005, 05:28 PM
I was watching this bout a couple of nights ago and I had forgotten that Pryor had started to move on Arguello and give him angles.I think this played a huge part in Pryor's victory because Arguello always had trouble with movers.

10-16-2005, 12:33 AM
Absolutely correct. Pryor proved his versatility. A brilliant blend of boxing and attacking.

10-16-2005, 10:54 AM
Pryor was a great , great fighter...he should have stayes at lightweight, his natural weight, but no one would fight him there.

10-19-2005, 09:53 PM
Taking nothing away from Pryor (though something might have been put in him), what really defeated Arguello in this fight was his lack of power at 140lbs. By the tenth round, Pryor had slowed considerably and Arguello nailed him. In lower weight classes, Arguello would usually figure out the opponent and then uncork some pop. But that pop wasn't there at 140lbs.

10-19-2005, 11:11 PM
I disagree. Arguello flattened Kevin Rooney with a tremendous right hand shot. He was only going up five pounds from lightweight where he still hit like a on of bricks. Against Pryor he was simply a bit too old and fighting a super great fighter in his own physical prime.

walsh b
10-20-2005, 06:09 AM
Pryor did box the head off Alexis but Arguello nailed Pryor so frequently. I thought Alexis was too slow and immobile. He was a punchbag really and had no defense, footwork was a joke. His boxing brain was also a joke. I just think that it was Alexis being so predictable and flat footed that made Pryor look so good. Aaron couldn't bloody miss Alexis when he threw a shot. I feel that if Aaorn had of fought a guy like Oscar, he wouldn't have found it so easy.....

10-20-2005, 09:12 AM
I never really thought Pryor boxed Alexis so much as simply laid on constant, relentless pressure. He did move nicely, avoided many more punches than most of Alex's opponents did, but the thing that got him through that fight was his durability and pressure.

I also think that this fight shows just what a great Alexis was P4P, since entering the 14th round I had the fight almost dead even. An aging champion, at/near the end of his career and 3 weight divisions above his prime weight, fought tooth and nail against another great (of THAT weight division), nearly even through 13, and having nailed him with enough bombs that it would have KOed virtually anyone but Pryor, whose chin belongs on Mount Rushmore. Agains anyone else, Alex would have become the first 4 division champ that night, aged or not.

10-20-2005, 09:18 AM
That says it right.

10-20-2005, 12:42 PM
I watch it a couple of times a year while I'm on the treadmill and never get tired of it.
Those shots Alexis hit Aaron with would have killed the normal man.
AEP brought up the issue that's been debated over and over again about Pryor having something in him.
I never thougt it was anything other than peppermint schnapps as Aaron had the shits and a bad stomach ache.

Forum Flash
11-06-2005, 11:01 PM
It always struck me as "funny" how Pryor seemed spent after
the 10th, but then in that 14th he comes flying out of his
corner like it was the 1st round again and overwhelms
Arguello. To me it looked like Alexis was on his way to a
victory until then. It was very close, but I thought Alexis
had landed more power shots, and Pryor seemed to be wilting.

Roberto Aqui
11-07-2005, 12:22 AM
[[[To me it looked like Alexis was on his way to a
victory until then. It was very close, but I thought Alexis
had landed more power shots, and Pryor seemed to be wilting. ]]]

I was pulling for Arguello, but I saw the lead shifting many times in the fight. Nothing was certain though Aaron most certainly did have to come back from the dead to win the fight. By far and away the best fight I've ever seen, better than Frazier/Ali 3 which is what most pick as the best fight ever.

walsh b
11-10-2005, 03:45 PM

11-11-2005, 07:10 PM
Close. Yes. Dead even in fact. And I think you confuse throwing three times as many punches with landing three times as many punches. Pryor was busier, no doubt. Arguello was Arguello, picking his spots and landing most of what he threw. ANYONE but Pryor would have been KOed clean in the 12th or 13th. What Alex was landing was that devastating. Pryor's chin is right up there with Lamotta's as far as I'm concerned.

But I don't know if you could hear this OVER YOUR SHOUTING!!!!

11-12-2005, 01:20 AM
I always find it interesting how somw guys flatten others but cannot drop guys they hit real good and who should be dropped...Arguello was still a big puncher at 140...still, he could not drop Pryor, who had been dropped multiple time by other, lesser hitters, despite landing bombs flush....it's a bit strange and happens many times in this sport....

Frazier could not drop Bonavena once while Ellis did it twice...that's another example that comes to mind ... any others you historians can think of ???

There's many !!!

11-12-2005, 01:27 AM
Here's another ... Jeffries and Sharkey ... Big Jeff who langend has was the greatest hitter of his age could not really stop Sharkey (although he did drop him once) but Fitz flattens him ...I wite this taking nothng away from the murderous hitting Fitz but he was 170 to Jeffries 210 or so...

Maybe it has to do with the speed of the shots and if the opponent sees them coming or not...

I'd love some of the former fighters to add in on this ...

11-12-2005, 10:03 PM
It looked like Alexis Arguello gave everything
he had in the first bout with Aaron Pryor
because he was a shell of his former self
in their second bout. Of course, I recall
that someone said on HBO's LEGENDARY
NIGHTS segment that it was thought
Pryor would become tired in the first
bout!!! Yet boxing fans of that time
knew that Pryor had an incrediable
workrate and seemed tireless.

- Chuck Johnston

11-13-2005, 12:20 PM
HE - I think the main secret of Fitz' success against Sharkey in both bouts were well practiced & deadly accurate body shots though he still may've dropped the Sailor a few times with head shots, I can't quite recall. In the latter case, I'd put it down to Fitz's superior timing & accuracy (to that of Jeffries). Fitz was also more uniformly aggressive throughout both Sharkey bouts whereas Big Jeff only really began to press the action relatively late in his matches with Sharkey. . Also, at least for Fitz-Sharkey II, it might be also argued that the Sailor was that much worn and torn after his two gruelling encounters with Jeffries.

As to earlier KDs suffered by Pryor, I think poor balance (ala early Floyd Patterson) had a bit to do it. I also imagine that Pryor took that much more steely resolve into the ring with him against all time great Arguello than any of his prior (excuse pun) opponents.

11-24-2005, 11:55 PM
Best shot ever fired was by Alexis in the 13th round, I know that shot would've K.O'd Ali,LaMotta, Chuvalo at the same time,:) YET Pryor did a little dance & came out in the next round to devour Alexis, to this day everytime I see that shot, I hold my chin like I got hit, man that Pryor was SUPERMAN!!!

walsh b
11-26-2005, 01:32 PM
Superman with a little help from his 'black bottle'!!!!!

11-26-2005, 03:23 PM
Black bottle, white bottle ,yellow bottle!!! Since it's never been proven exactly what was in the bottle there is no case in point. And if we're going to crucify Pryor about "THE BOTTLE" we better start crucifying many of the old time guys about Bottles, loaded gloves, nails in gloves, pulling out the padding in gloves, elbows,head butts, biting,eye gouging etc. This bottle business was not proven, in their 2nd fight Pryor beat Arguello even quicker, with NO BOTTLE in question.

Mr E
11-27-2005, 05:44 AM
Maybe I'm just less trusting and more cynical than the rest of you gentlemen, but there's no doubt in my mind that they gave Pryor some sort of artificial stimulant and it sure wasn't alcohol. I think on the level he loses that fight down the stretch.

Regrettably, once he was juiced, he was able to administer such a severe beating to Arguello that The Thin Man was never able to recover and the rematch was not competetive.

I've often wondered how Arguello would be considered if he'd knocked out a non-stimulated Pryor at the end of that fight.

Mr E
11-27-2005, 05:47 AM
I've always thought the answer to Jeffries's inability to stop Sharkey was a little simpler. To wit:

In the first fight, Jeffries was still a novice.

In the second fight, Jeffries entered the ring with an injured right hand and then hurt his left in like the 2nd round. He was not hitting at full power.

Just my suspicion.

11-27-2005, 11:00 PM
Either way he still outweighed Sharkey by over 30lbs in the 1st fight & over 40lbs in their 2nd fight, to my way of thinking this guy never beat ANYONE who he did'nt outweigh by at least 30lbs. Anyone that disputes that I suggest you get Jeffries record & see how much more he weighed then any of those SHRIMPS back then.

Mr E
11-27-2005, 11:15 PM
I assume you're speaking apocryphally?

Literally speaking, of course, Jeffries fought many men who were within "at least 30 pounds" of him. But, if you meant to say that he had a significant weight advantage over the other top contenders he fought (i.e., Jackson, Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sharkey, Ruhlin & Griffin), then, in that case, you would have it right.

11-28-2005, 02:44 AM
Mr E every contender & former champ he out weighed by at least 30lbs, in some cases it was as much as 60lbs, the only man he did'nt out weigh by that much was Johnson, & that day he was beaten like he stole a rolex watch from the CIA. Now if Jeffries fought I.M.O in an era where the guys weighed as much as him I believe he would'nt have that nice 22-0 record before he lost to Johnson. To me a guy who has such a weight advantage over small fries cannot get my respect the way some on this board seem to give him. Beating a 172 lb Fitz for the title & beating a very over the hill Corbett does'nt give credibility to his reign I.M.O.

Mr E
11-28-2005, 04:49 PM
I'm not talking about Jeffries's relative greatness or place in history, m'man, just the now 30-60 pound weight difference to which you refer. Just going off the top of my head, excepting the Johnson bout, Jeffries weighed between 206 and 219 for all his title fights. I don't have my materials in front of me, but I strongly suspect that if you subtract his opponent's weight from his weight in all of his title fights, you will never get to 60 and only get to 30 about half the time. For example, Corbett in the rematch, Ruhlin and Munroe were all w/in 30 of the big guy, I believe.

11-28-2005, 05:41 PM
BTW,He weighed 47lbs more then Fitz in their 2nd fight.

11-28-2005, 09:49 PM
Goddard, Armstrong, Jackson (over the hill, I know) were not small men; neither, as has been pointed out, were Ruhlin or Munroe. Sharkey was tremendously built for his height, and terribly strong. That you should use the Johnson fight to illustrate your point rather vitiates your credibility here. What would our board members make of an argument against Ali's stature based merely on his unimpressive performance against Leon Spinks?

11-28-2005, 09:50 PM
date Lb opponent Lb wld last 6 location
1910-07-04 227 Jack Johnson 208 66-6-10
Reno, NV, USA L TKO 15 45
~ Referee: Tex Rickard ~
World Heavyweight Title
Reportedly the first time a venue was constructed specifically for one boxing show. (Promoter & Referee: Tex Rickard. United States President Taft declined Rickard's telegraphed offer to referee.) Jeffries lost over 100 pounds training for this bout. Jake Kilraine and Abe Attell were introduced to the crowd of 16,528. Scheduled for 45 rounds. Jeffries's corner stopped the bout.

1904-08-26 219 Jack Munroe 186 9-2-2
Mechanics Pavilion, San Francisco, CA, USA W TKO 2 0
~ Referee: Eddie Graney ~
World Heavyweight Title
"The two giants had not been in the ring two minutes when it was foreseen that the aspirations of Munroe would be quickly disposed of. The miner was scared and awkward and Jeffries in the first round had him twice on the canvas taking the count. Jeffries directed his bombardment against the stomach of his opponent and each shot was followed by a blow on the jaw that sent Munroe to his knees. Jeffries went back to his corner after the first round with a sneer and a laugh on his swarthy face, While Munroe's seconds busied themselves with smelling salts and restoratives. When the two came together for the second round the laugh on the champion's visage changed to a look of determination that boded ill to the miner. Fifty-five seconds after the gong sounded, Munroe was lying on the floor, a bruised mass of humanity; Jeffries standing over him ready, if necessary, to put the quietus on the championship abilities of his adversary. The miner was too dazed to rise to his feet, and the timekeepers counted him out, but the husky man from southern California did not understand that the victory was already his nor could Munroe realize that his pugilistic star had so early set, and the two men in a moment or two were facing one another and Jeffries landed a terrific blow on the jaw of his staggering opponent. It was at this time that Graney came forward and ordered Jeffries away, telling him that the fight was ended in his favor. From the time the bell rang for the commencement of the battle to the time that the count of ten had been uttered against Munroe, only four minutes and forty-five seconds had elapsed. The fight demonstrated, if nothing else, that the world has yet to produce a pugilist who will displace James J. Jeffries as champion of the world." (Summit County Journal)

1903-08-14 220 James J Corbett 190 13-3-4
Mechanics Pavilion, San Francisco, CA, USA W KO 10 0
~ Referee: Eddie Graney ~
World Heavyweight Title
"James J. Jeffries, champion heavyweight of the world, played with Jim Corbett for nine rounds and a half last night, and then Corbett's seconds motioned Referee Graney to stop the fight in order to save their man from needless punishment. The end came shortly after the beginning of the tenth round, when Jeffries planted one of his terrific left swings on Corbett's stomach. The man who conquered John L. Sullivan then dropped to the floor in agony, and the memorable scene at Carson, when Bob Fitzsimmons landed his solar plexus blow, was almost duplicated. This time however, Corbett struggled to his feet and again faced his gigantic adversary. With hardly a moment's hesitation, Jeffries swung his right and again landed on Corbett's stomach. Jim dropped to the floor, and then it was that Tommy Ryan, seeing that it was all over, motioned to Referee Graney to stop the punishment." (Elbert County Banner)

1902-07-25 219 Bob Fitzsimmons 172 49-4-7
San Francisco, CA, USA W KO 8 0
~ Referee: Eddie Graney ~
World Heavyweight Title

1901-11-15 218 Gus Ruhlin 200 18-5-2
Mechanics Pavilion, San Francisco, CA, USA W TKO 5 20
~ Referee: Harry Corbett ~
World Heavyweight Title
Ruhlin quit after being thrown against the ropes, claiming "foul fighting." The Los Angeles Times

1901-09-17 Hank Griffin 21-2-6
Hazard's Pavilion, Los Angeles, CA, USA W PTS 4 4
1900-05-11 218 James J Corbett 188 12-2-4
Seaside A.C., Brooklyn, NY, USA W KO 23 0
World Heavyweight Title
"The finishing blow came suddenly and was a startling surprise. Corbett had been making a wonderful battle. His defense was absolutely perfect, and while he was lacking in strength, he had more than held his own and stood an excellent chance of winning the fight had it gone the limit. He had not been badly punished and had managed to mark his man severely. The winning punch was a short left to the jaw. Corbett dropped like weight and was clear out. Jeffries showed his ability to take punishment at any distance and hard. He was clearly outboxed and at times was made to look like a novice. The crowd, which numbered fully eight thousand, was with Corbett and his defeat fell upon a silent crowd. There were cheers for him when he revived and left the ring, and he was generally given more consideration than the victor. Corbett is still a factor in pugilistic fame. He has regained much of his old time form. The battle was clean and it is doubtful if there was a single infraction of the rules." (Durango Democrat)

1900-04-06 Jack Finnegan 1-2-2
Cadillac A.C., Detroit, MI, USA W KO 1 10
~ Time: 0:55 | Referee: George Siler ~
World Heavyweight Title
"Finnegan landed the first blow as they came to the center of the ring, and Jeffries then put his left on the Pittsburgh man's jaw and he went to the floor. Finnegan came up in a few seconds only to be sent to the floor again with a blow in the same place. He stayed down longer this time and when he again rose he was in visible distress. He had hardly assumed a fighting position before the champion put his left in the pit of his stomach and Finnegan went down completely out. Referee Siler counted the seconds off and when he stepped back it was seen that Finnegan was crying. He staggered to his feet, reeled against the ropes and his seconds rushed into the ring and carried him to his corner. It was several minutes before he recovered sufficiently to leave the ring. Jeffries said he weighed 220, but he looked 30 pounds heavier. Finnegan weighed but 180, and he looked like a boy beside the champion." (Brooklyn Daily Eagle)

1899-11-03 215 Tom Sharkey 183 34-1-5
Coney Island A.C., Brooklyn, NY, USA W PTS 25 25
~ Referee: George Siler ~
World Heavyweight Title
"From the first round to the twenty-fifth the sailor put up a battle that plainly demonstrated that he was a 'pug' of no mean ability, and the greater science, alone, of his opponent is all that won him the big fight on points. The club house was filled to its utmost capacity, and with few exceptions the decision was considered fair and equitable." (Breckenridge Builletin)

1899-06-09 206 Bob Fitzsimmons 167 44-3-7
Greater New York A.C., Brooklyn, NY, USA W KO 11 0
~ Referee: George Siler ~
World Heavyweight Title

1898-08-05 212 Bob Armstrong 187 9-6-3
Lennox A.C., New York, NY, USA W PTS 10 10
1898-05-06 Tom Sharkey

SSM,Johnson weights are listed here, as well as his opponents. these are the official weights the day of the fight, if anyone thinks I'm just hurling stones at Jeffries i suggest you see just how much more he weighed then the guys he fought. Now if beating up on smaller guys is something to marvel at, then Jeffries certainly is your man. And many of those smaller men were doing a job on Jeffries until he landed his sunday punch.

Roberto Aqui
11-29-2005, 05:03 PM
Hmmmm, don't see Arguello or Pryor in Jeff's record. I'm sure the usual suspect will be scratching his noggin trying to figure out what happened.