View Full Version : IBRO All Time Lightweight Ratings
11-22-2005, 10:04 AM
Very Solid List. I voted Joe Gans # 1, Leonard #2 and Duran #3 although I consider all three of them P4P top 10 material. The Lightweight division is very deep. I was slightly surprised though that Roberto Duran didn't finish in 1st place due to his popularity. However, Benny Leonard in many ways is the Muhammad Ali of the lightweight division he faced and defeated the best collection of contenders ever to appear in one time in the division. Stylistically I also think he can beat Duran who was troubled by clever boxers who could move such as Edwin Viruet, Vilomar Fernandez etc.
It should be noted that Ray Arcel who trained both Leonard and Duran rated Benny Leonard as the greatest fighter he ever saw.
1. BENNY LEONARD
2. ROBERTO DURAN
3. JOE GANS
4. HENRY ARMSTRONG
5. TONY CANZONERI
6. IKE WILLIAMS
7. PERNEL WHITAKER
8. BARNEY ROSS
9. JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ
10. LOU AMBERS
11. CARLOS ORTIZ
12. JACK BLACKBURN
13. BATTLING NELSON
14. ALEXIS ARGUELLO
15. FREDDIE WELSH
16. PACKY McFARLAND
17. AARON PRYOR
18. JOE BROWN
19. SHANE MOSLEY
20. JACK McAULIFFE
Just missing the cut: Ad Wolgast, Beau Jack, Lew Tendler, Kid Lavigne, Floyd Mayweather, Jr., Ken Buchanan, Bob Montgomery, Ismael Laguna, Sammy Mandell, Sammy Angott and Esteban De Jesus.
11-22-2005, 12:24 PM
That was a post-war only list that Buchanan came first in.
11-22-2005, 12:25 PM
Leonard is #1 for me also.
He was hurt a bit more than Gan's and Duran in his time, but he was fighting with an extreme regularity in a super era.
I have a small clip of his title fight with Tendler and he was so slick. Nifty/quick feet, brilliant lateral movement, counter-punching and he spins him around when hurt.
Gan's and Duran should battle for second spot.
I agree with Armstrong at #4. He decisively beat Ambers, Arizmendi and Jenkins plus fighters like Garcia while weighing at 135.
Canzoneri beat a very young Amber's, but still has a tremendous resume. His loss' against Ross were very close.
Williams/Whitaker were both dominant in their time. Whitaker probably more so. I think he could be rated higher than he is.
Arguello was still an awesome fighter at 135, but his most impressive work was at 130-I think he has a fair rating.
If I constructed a list it would probably be very similar.
I like the list too, except that I feel strongly that Barney Ross is under-rated as a lightweight, where he fought most of his career. IMO, like Duran & Armstrong, but unlike Leonard & Gans, he was a lightweight who beat welterweights. Plus, I love the way Ross looks on film. I really do think his accomplishments have been unfairly diminished over time.
I also think Shane Mosley is under-rated. He had some trouble as he moved up in weight because he's just not big enough to beat the top of the line super welters, but he also had some big wins and he sure showed he has heart. And, as a lightweight, he was something else.
For the record, the list I submitted looked like so:
7-Sugar Shane Mosley
10-Julio Cesar Chavez
11-22-2005, 02:56 PM
[[[Very Solid List.]]]]
One could quibble, but this is the best list yet overall IMO.
It should be noted that BBC voted Buchanan as the best British boxer of all time.
11-22-2005, 05:51 PM
Joe Gans did beat welterweights.
He beat Joe Walcott but got robbed of a decision that was called a draw.
According to the Oct. 1, 1904 Boston Globe “The decision was not well received by many of the spectators who seemed of the opinion that Gans should have been favored.” The National Police Gazette, Oct 15, 1904, also reported “Many spectators thought that Gans should have had the decision, and there were many shouts of disapproval.” Young Corbett, the former featherweight champion, described the Walcott fight as an eyewitness two years later (Boston Globe Sep. 1, 1906), “Walcott, the way he was a couple of years ago (before his gun accident), could have whipped any of the present crop of heavyweights. Yet out in Frisco, I saw Gans fight Walcott to a standstill. Walcott was given a draw, but it was a fierce decision. Gans mastered him and out punched him all the way.”
Gans also beat Mike "Twin" Sullivan who was a welterweight title claimant twice. He beat many other fighters who weighed over 135 pounds when he fought them such as Dave Holly.
He also made 14 title defenses according to the 1987 Ring Record Book, more than anyone else at this weight class.
In any event the list looks very good overall.
11-22-2005, 06:04 PM
This is such a tuff class to judge. So many great fighters. I might rank Canzi over Armstrong and Williams a bit higher. Sammy Mandell belongs with the good ones too. Putting him so low means that the experts didnt see him. Carlos Ortiz would rank much higher on my list too.
11-22-2005, 09:06 PM
Leonard, Duran and gans -- I agree -- top ten pfp.
11-26-2005, 02:44 AM
good lightweifgt ratings. but for damn sure, armstrong better win the featherweifht poll hand down- i dod not see a pep, argeuello, driscoll beating on middleweihts like armstrong- best there ever was except for maybe robinson.
11-26-2005, 06:59 AM
Wasn't Duran's first bout at bantam? If so, he must have gone through a featherweight phase, and he later was known to beat up a middleweight or two. PeteLeo.
11-26-2005, 12:48 PM
I think Alexis is much too low. 17? He didn't have the greatest resume at that weight, but his fighting ability more than makes up for it. He beats everyone from 6 on down. Whitaker gives him trouble, so does Ortiz. Armstrong-Arguello would have been a great match.
11-27-2005, 07:56 AM
I'm glad to see Roberto Duran at the top or no less than second on everyone's lists.
I started following boxing in 1975, and I regard the 135 lb. version of Duran as the very best fighter I've ever seen on a pound for pound and inch for inch basis.
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