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Steve McV
11-03-2005, 11:09 AM
There are so many fighters who either should have, or at least might have, been champions, had they been given an even break.

CBZ's section on the boxers called "Black Dynamite" provide quite a few examples. (Burley especially.)

Then there's Packey McFarland.

How about Jimmy Young? I think he beat Ali that day, frankly. Close. But I had Young ahead.

Who do you think might have been champions, had circumstances been more fair?

Roberto Aqui
11-03-2005, 11:18 AM
Langford and Jennette were the most dominant heavies during Johnson's title reign. I'd give Jeanette a slightly better than even chance to beat him, and I'd bet the farm on Langford to knock Johnson out. Also Wills was coming into his own around 1913-14 and had gotten good enough to do to Johnson what Willard did only sooner. Don't think Wills could beat Willard though unless it was a short fight.

Langford could have held the LH and heavy belts simultaneously.

kikibalt
11-03-2005, 11:19 AM
One for sure is Mando Muniz, who got robbed in Mexico when he fought Jose Napoles the first time

Frank B.

Dragnet 69
11-03-2005, 03:25 PM
Frank B. - Do you know anything about the Napoles vs Eddie Perkins fight in Mexico? I've heard Perkins outboxed him but lost the dec. TIP

kikibalt
11-03-2005, 03:26 PM
D.69
I'm sorry but i don't, i wish i did b/c i heard the same thing
that Eddie Perkins was robbed, but the info that i have is just
hear-say

Frank B.

beddows
11-03-2005, 07:09 PM
Miguel "Zorro" Santana was robbed against Greg Haugen.

theironbar
11-03-2005, 07:27 PM
Dave Tibieri?

gregbeyer
11-03-2005, 08:09 PM
anyone who has ever seen the muniz-napoles I fight knows mando should have been crowned that nite. muniz had everything working against him. napoles behind on points, face a swollen, bloody mess and getting creamed bad enough on the ropes to have it stopped 2 or 3 times finally starts throwing obvious low blows one after the other with the ref suddenly doing his ray charles impression. when it finaly became obvious to the officials that this was not going to a decision where they can job mando on the cards they stop it mid round have a meeting of the minds and DQ muniz....who was never warned. the winner napoles, which to this day makes me want to puke.

amazing thing is that i spoke to mando about this fight a couple years ago and he took it with class. said, he asked the ref in the dressing room why he got robbed and the ref admitted that mantequilla was his friend and he was not going to let him lose his title. mando then spoke to his mother who told him that it was just not meant to be. he accepted that and went on. hard to understand unless you ever met armando muniz.
greg

theironbar
11-03-2005, 08:38 PM
Billy Graham (vs. Kid Gavilan) is another one...

BTW, great story Greg!

BDeskins
11-04-2005, 03:52 AM
Of course Sam Langford, who is my all-time favorite fighter, but I don't think he could have ever beaten Jack Johnson.

Also Jack Blackburn, Peter Jackson, Teddy Yarosz, Kid Norfolk, Jock McAvoy, Charley Burley, Al Gainer, Lloyd Marshall, Phil Zwick, possibly Dave Sands!

Sixto Escobar should have lost against Kayo Morgan in San Juan. I don't correctly recall the events, but I'm pretty certain that Morgan had put Escobar down and out and before the count could go all the lights went out, which after they were restored, Escobar was on a stool in his corner being revived.

I think the same thing happened in a bout that Mickey Walker was in, Walker being downed and the lights mysteriously go out, but I forgot the fighter who did the trick, might have been Paul Swiderski!

Roberto Aqui
11-04-2005, 06:25 PM
[[[Of course Sam Langford, who is my all-time favorite fighter, but I don't think he could have ever beaten Jack Johnson.]]]
====================

What universe did Langford have to live in to get Johnson to give him a title shot? He was knocking out better comp than Johnson was at 4xs the rate Johnson was after their only bout when Sam was still well undersized.

On a side note, I keep hearing about how McVea, Langford, and Jeannette had many more bouts than is shown on their records. I understand there's a fine line between a turn of the century roped off bareknuckled fight in a pasture compared to a roped off gloved fight in the pasture, but if they had all these bouts in previous years, surely a few would pop up, but they don't. Any views?

blv30
11-04-2005, 07:22 PM
How about Jimmy Bivins, or Peter Jackson?

SageBrush
11-04-2005, 08:01 PM
Colin Jones, - Almost iced the fleeing Iceman, given a rather iffy Draw, lost the return a bit more clearly on points, but again came within a whisker of finding the McCory Chin ( pity pale skinned,fair haired Colin twice had to fight in that appalling heat )

Alvaro Lopez - although clearly beaten by Conteh, almost Beat Saad and Galindez, - it would of been nice to see his persaverance pay off,

Gasper Ortega, operated in at the deep end most of his carrer, and few if any had an easy ride with him, just a case of wrong place and time perhaps ?

Tom "The Bomb" Bethea one of those Road Warrier, Have bag will travel (often at late notice ) never protected, tough trailhorses upset a few looking to add him to their win sheet, one was Nino Benvenuti, sadly for Tom with no title on the line, it was a bit beyond Tom in the return, but a crowd pleaser worth mentioning

BDeskins
11-05-2005, 01:18 AM
I've done a lot of research on Langford and I would say that his record is pretty complete, though there may be a few bouts that are missing, but Tim Leone compiled a great record for him and due to all the fights he had, it would be hard to fit in fights as he was a fighter that was covered very heavily. Clay Moyle would have a better opinion on that than I do though.

Sam McVey---I've researched his career here in the United States, but due to lack of sources his oversea battles I know little about, except the more important ones and I would guess that his record is pretty well complete too. I've read several early reports from Oxnard for 1902 and it is very possible that he may have had a few early bouts that have not been recorded, but according to the Oxnard articles that I have seen, his record is about what it should be.

Joe Jeannette--Like the two above, Jeannette is another that has been researched pretty thourough, though like the others there may be a few unrecorded bouts, but again, not many. Philadelphia during that time peroid has been researched very well by several top historians, so if any bouts are missing, I would guess that they are bouts around New Jersey, or somewhere in New England.

TheSentinel
11-05-2005, 02:39 AM
How about Tyrone Everrett? Shafted against Escalera and killed before he could get a rematch. Jorge Ahumada beat a declining Foster. The great Burley frozen out of a title shot. Dale Brown against O'Neil Bell.

dnahar
11-05-2005, 03:24 AM
Other than the usual suspects that have already been named...

The great Mike Gibbons never had a chance to win the middleweight title and was avoided like the plague by Chip and McCoy for legitimate title fights (not the ND variety) and did not have the chance to fight Darcy because of Darcy's unfortunate passing. One of the greatest defensive fighters that ever lived.

Deepak

bodyblow
11-05-2005, 04:39 AM
George chip didnt have the title long enough to duck anyone. He won the title in october and between october and january he fought six times including fights against Klaus, Houck, Christie, and Borrell. All top fighters. He broke his hand in the Borrell fight and was sidelined for three months before losing to McCoy. He fought both Gibbons more than once. It was Johnny Wilson who avoided Gibbons along with McCoy who had already gotten a good battering by the St Paul Phantom prior to his title win over Chip.

dnahar
11-05-2005, 06:17 AM
I was mistaken about lumping Chip in with McCoy. Chip even went to Australia to fight Darcy so he was clearly not the ducking type.

That said, fighters like Kid Williams, Willie Ritchie, and Ted Kid Lewis defended their titles in New Orleans and other jurisdictions that allowed for bouts that went to a decision in the ND era. Chip did not do this. The Klaus rematch was also a scheduled ND affair.

I didn't know about the broken hand, thanks for that information. One interesting fact about Chip is that according to the Ring Record Book, Chip was 161 1/2 pounds when he won the title claim from Klaus yet not too many people seem to hold this against him.

Deepak

Chuck1052
11-05-2005, 07:38 AM
Since I live in Ventura County, I have been
interested in Sam McVey for about three decades.
During the early 1980s, I looked at the Oxnard
Courier and found quite a bit on McVey.
I also looked at other California newspapers
and found bouts that McVey had with Denver
Ed Martin (one in Sacramento and another
in San Diego) and Tornado Smith (in Bakersfield).

Looking at the Oxnard Courier, one finds the
following nuggets:

1. It is probable that McVey came to Oxnard
in late 1901.

2. It is probable that McVey was born in Texas
in 1883, not in Oxnard in 1885.

3. McVey had a manager named William A. "Billy"
(or Billey) Roche, who was a businessman in Oxnard
at the time. At the time Roche was a part owner
of a livery stable named Roche and Rowe, McVey
apparently worked as a buggy washer. A little
later, Roche owned a saloon named THE ATHLETE,
which had an area set aside for McVey's workouts.
By the way, I doubt if Billy Roche of Oxnard and
Billy Roche of referee fame are one-and-the-same.

Taking a look at an 1899 directory of Ventura County,
I found that there was a W. A. Roche or a William
Roche who was working as a blacksmith in Hueneme
(later Port Hueneme). I also found that Roche
moved to San Diego ca. 1905 where he was
staging boxing cards under the auspices of the
National Athletic Club. While in San Diego, Roche
staged a World Featherweight Title bout between
Abe Attell and Billy DeCoursey, which may have
been the first world title bout in Southern
California. He also staged bouts involving
McVey, Denver Ed Martin, and Billy Woods.

4. There was an Oxnard fighter named Frank
Fields who trained with McVey at times.
I have found that Fields had an interesting
career as a boxer, referee, a promoter, and a
manager. He would die in his eighties at
Camarillo State Hospital. Ad Wolgast
died at the same place a decade earlier.
Take a look at his record on BoxRec.

During his career, Fields fought while
living in Oxnard; Goldfield, Nevada;
San Diego; and Maricopa, California.
Maricopa is one of a number of boxing
towns located in a tremendous oil producing
area, the southwestern part of the Central
Valley of California. The other towns included
Taft and Coalinga.

5. For his second bout with McVey and
his second bout with Jack Johnson, Denver
Ed Martin was under the management of
Billy Roche. It looks like Martin trained
in Oxnard for both bouts.

6. Jack Lavalle fought both McVey and
Fields, losing to both fighters. According
to the ca. 1908 Los Angeles Times, there
was a fighter named Jack Lavalle or Jack
Lavelle who was found dead in an opium
den in Denver.

- Chuck Johnston

dnahar
11-05-2005, 02:24 PM
Chuck, could you help me with something regarding McVey?

I'm compiling reach measurements on some of the champion boxers of the past and I never found this info on McVey. Did you uncover any Tale of the Tapes on McVey in your search? If so, I would appreciate if you could you share this.

Thanks,
Deepak

Chuck1052
11-06-2005, 09:17 PM
I know that Sam McVey was about 5' 10" and
weighed about 200 pounds. It is possible that
one of the Los Angeles newspapers had a list of
other measurements of McVey.

- Chuck Johnston