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walsh b
10-10-2005, 11:30 AM
I think this might be worth discussing???

Guys, I was just wondering what qualities would the perfect fighting machine possess based on these five very important qualities

1. Stamina
2. Speed/combo speed
3. Footwork
4.Chin
5. Punching power

My selection would be Aaron Pryor's stamina, Ray Leonards speed/combos, Ali's footwork, Hagler's chin, and Joe Louis' punching power

Now there is a perfect fighting machine.....any other suggestions

kikibalt
10-10-2005, 03:07 PM
The only fighter that come to mind
right now that i think possessed all five
qualities is Sugar Ray Robinson

Frank B.

walsh b
10-10-2005, 03:31 PM
Well that just goes to show how good Ray was. I didn't select him in any of the categories, but overall he had the lot.......;)

JLP 6
10-10-2005, 06:52 PM
Salador Sanchez and it all. I haven't seen a fighter with as much skill as Sanchez since Sanchez in the featherweight divison.

handtomouth
10-10-2005, 06:53 PM
if you leave out defense (wh/ really should be included imo if your putting together the total machine), then of the heavies I think you've have to say ali, louis & dempsey were the most complete & collective packages if your evenly weighting each category & you're taking them at their absolute prime...

its important imo to stress however this isnt the same thing as the best heavy or putting together matchups... i'm simply evenly weighting the components you listed on a 1-5 scale & thinking of the fighters who had all these in potent levels... I'll only stick w/ the heavies on this post...

lastly, if you were to add in defense as a component... then I think dempsey only gets a 3 (an arguement could be made for a 2.5, though gibbons fight could make it 3.5, so im splitting it) , wh/ would then bring him down some ranking notches.... ditto marciano... ali & j johnson would totally benefit, getting 5's (in ali's case a 5+)... i'd give louis, liston, holmes & lewis a 3.5, frazier, holy & tyson 3's & foreman a 2.5 (though older a 3).

D is a great equalizer wh/ makes a valid arguement that j johnson may be in the top 3 heavies all-time... power is the wildcard wh/ keeps guys like dempsey, tyson & foreman very dangerous for anyone including ali ... and matchups are the intangible & probaly most important dynamic that has to be taken in consideration in a fight to fight basis... for ex i think dempsey smokes marciano, holmes & even foreman... but he'd have real problems penetrating ali & j johnson & could very well be beat to the punch by tyson & perhaps louis... & frazier ranks high in your criteria imo, but he would also have real problems in various matchups... thus in pure ranking vrs other heavies i'd have to put him 7-10 somewhere.

ultimately, imo ali is not only the best hvy ever & most complete package w/ your criteria... but if you add in D & intangibles in matchups... he benefits greatly also... so in fairness imo its ali clearly ahead... then all the others make interesting ranking discussion.

*** .. if a fighter below who has a + added to his ranking, he imo has the elite position in that component & inturn serves as a tiebreaker.

heavy list:

ali:

stamina- 4.5
speed- 5+
footwork- 5+
chin- 5+
power- 3.5

total: 23


dempsey:

stamina- 4
speed- 4.5
footwork- 3.5
chin- 4.5
power- 5

total: 21.5


louis:

stamina- 4
speed- 5
footwork- 3
chin- 4
power- 5

total: 21


j johnson:

stamina- 4.5
speed- 4
footwork- 4
chin- 3.5
power- 4

total: 20


tyson:

stamina- 3
speed- 5
footwork- 3.5
chin- 3.5
power- 5+

total: 20


marciano:

stamina- 5+
speed- 3.5
footwork- 2.5
chin- 4
power- 5

total: 20


j frazier:

stamina- 4
speed- 4
footwork- 2.5
chin- 3.5
power- 4.5

total: 19.5


holy:

stamina- 3.5
speed- 4
footwork- 3.5
chin- 4
power- 4

total: 19


holmes:

stamina- 4
speed- 4
footwork- 3
chin- 4
power- 3.5

total: 18.5


lewis:

stamina- 3
speed- 4
footwork- 3.5
chin- 3.5
power- 4

total: 18


liston:

stamina- 3
speed- 4
footwork- 3
chin- 3
power- 5

total: 18


foreman:

stamina- 3
speed- 3.5
footwork- 2.5
chin- 3.5
power- 5+

total: 17

TKO Tom
10-10-2005, 07:41 PM
Roberto Duran had it all as a Lightweight.

Add to your list a great defense, killer instinct and the will to win and you've got Duran.

:hat

Dragnet 69
10-10-2005, 07:45 PM
Duran had it all especially at 135. He had great ability to adjust and his handspeed is underated IMO.

Steve McV
10-11-2005, 08:32 AM
The perfect fighting machine...

Strategy and tactics. Being able to analyze an opponent, both in the ring and before the bout. Learning and remembering an opponents's strength's and weaknesses, and being able to put that information to use. (Tunney)

Boxing skill. Ability to punch accurately and avoid, deflect, parry, block, duck, or bob'n'weave and thus not get hit in return.

Chin. When defense fails, the abilty, physical and mental, to resist a powerful punch. (Hagler)

The sheer guts to stay on your feet, or get up after you've been knocked down. Also, the will to keep fighting when the other guy starts out great and floors you, he's winning, but you don't EVER give up. (Archie Moore vs. Durelle)

Punching Power and Timing. The ability to strike like a viper with a single punch so powerful it takes out the other guy. (Ray Robinson's "perfect punch.") Contrarily, pound, pound, pound... if you can't break the other's guy's jaw, break his will. Inflict so many punches on him that you literally beat him down. (LaMotta)

Combinations. The man doesn't leave an opening for a one punch KO? Feint, bluff, jab-right cross-double left hook! If the man doesn't leave an opening, make one! (Patterson and Jose Torres)

Master a variety of styles. The perfect fighting machine can fight inside or outside, off the ropes, cut the ring short.

Counterpunching. If the other guy is agressive, use it against him.

Stamina. No one, NO ONE, is going to get into the ring with you in better shape. (Basketball coach John Wooden when he played college ball; "I may meet players with more ability, but I'll never meet one in better shape.")

The killer instinct. When you've got him on a hook, hang him. When he's hurt, finish him. (Joe Louis)

Hand speed. Flurries. But aim!

Foot speed. Be able to move about the ring. Choose the time to fight. Foot speed can buy you a couple seconds to clear your head.

And I agree, Ray Robinson had a lot of these qualities. I don't think Ray hit as hard as, say, Graziano or Monzon or Hagler. But he had a good punch. Was he the fastest middleweight ever? Maybe not, but he had fine speed. Skill? Oh yeah, offense and/or defense, damn few better.

StingerKarl
10-11-2005, 10:58 AM
Joe Louis

walsh b
10-11-2005, 12:37 PM
I know there are a lot to the perfect machine, but I see the 5 qualities I chose as the most significant...a great chin is also part of a fighters defense. If he can take a good shot, he keeps going. blinding speed means defense can be a little less important due to you always beating your opponent to the punch. I'd more like to see a top 5 fighter list....number 1 in each category..like I chose one fighter for each quality.....

walsh b
10-11-2005, 01:42 PM
That was a great list in the heavies. I agree that Ali gets the most points combined, due to his amazing footwork and handspeed. He was in a league of his own as regards the footwork and was to me the fastest punching heavy. The other 3 are debatable, great chin, great stamina and his power was not like Foreman or Tyson, but he still could KO an opponent with ease due to his speed of punch.....Ray Robinson probably scores highest outside of the heavies, Ray Leonard close second, same with Duran.

robertk
10-12-2005, 04:25 PM
Ricardo Lopez in recent times.

I gues his weakest thing is legs but the guy had terrific balance and used his angles very well. He'd keep himself out of the other guy's range by an inch or 2 but didn't dance around like say, a hector camacho.

He also threw a real rare punch you don't see guys do anymore; picture perfect left uppercut from a traditional fighter.

gregbeyer
10-12-2005, 05:33 PM
i noticed that in the 5 ingredients for the perfect fighting machine you did not include something that i used to hear about all the time......killer instinct.
greg

Irishlad69
10-12-2005, 06:24 PM
Eder jofre had great all-round skill and physical ability.
So did benny lynch before he became drink dependent.

gregbeyer
10-12-2005, 08:45 PM
ike williams would rank high in these areas.
greg

Ronald Lipton
10-12-2005, 09:19 PM
A very interesting thread and all good comments and analysis.

If I may, I would like to say that I felt Ray Robinson had much more power than Monzon in striking force. His speed and snap were far superior. I never felt that the lanky Monzon was a big one shot puncher not ever.

He would beat a man down and had an unusual right hand, not pretty, not fast, but accurate and repetitive.
He sure did the job on Nino twice but in the first fight wore him out and then shot him down late in the fight.

Robinson had it all, Duran at lightweight was a full package but to me took awhile to warm up before he would explode early. Did not have the right hand Lew Jenkins did or the left hook of Ike Williams, but was a snarling nasty fighter with deceptive boxing skills and a will to win and fight hard. Very impressive lightweight package who handled himself as he got heavier.
Amazing jobs on Palamino, Cuevas, Leonard, Barkley, Moore and lasting with Hagler.

One of his most impressive wins to me was the 6th round tko over Lloyd Marshall in Panama.

walsh b
10-13-2005, 12:18 PM
I sort of thought that the Killer instinct aspect was taken for granted. The ability to put away your opponent when he is hurt. You need speed, power and accuracy...so I think those 5 ingredients may have killer instinct embedded into them....the best finishers I have seen where Ray Leonard, George Foreman and Joe Louis....some other mentions are Chavez, Hearns, Hagler and Ray Robinson

HEGrant
10-13-2005, 10:31 PM
Duran was exceptional. Highly mislabeled as a puncher. The man was lightning fast, hit very hard with either hand, was a master feinter and was much harder to hit than anyone ever gave credit for .... a top ten all time pound for pound fighter in my book.

walsh b
10-14-2005, 11:13 AM
Yes Duran was one slippery customer...Leonard found it very hard to tag Duran clean or frequent. He was great in the defense area. Hearns on the other hand could barely miss Duran. I think Hearns 5-6 inch height and reach advantage made it close to impossible for Roberto

HEGrant
10-14-2005, 11:16 AM
There is no question that styles make fights...however, it is important to keep in mind that that fight was at 154. Duran was at his best as a lightweight.

walsh b
10-14-2005, 12:50 PM
I agree fully, Duran was at most a Super Lighweight. That just goes to show what an achievment it was for him to beat Leonard, who was a natural Welter and a great great Welter. Duran was at his peak that night. Even the great Robinson wouldn't have had it easy that night. Hearns was without doubt much bigger physically and this meant victory......I can't think of a real weakness from a peak Duran. He was so good and at Lightweight I say unbeatable.

gregbeyer
10-14-2005, 05:34 PM
the biggest drawback for duran was his work ethic. had he immediatley returned with buchanan instead of fighting a non-title with de jesus he may very well have been a one fight champ. the stupid way he conducted himself for the return with leonard is glaring proof of this.
greg