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Off The River
07-12-2011, 09:10 PM
This post is dedicated to those who love to run. I noticed Dino posted a question to Ron about running

I ran all my life. As a kid, I loved running and would run everywhere. I was a good middle distance runner and won a few cross country events in elementary and middle school. I ran untill highschool and then I discovered girls, got a car and stopped running. I can never remember as a kid getting tired when running. Even in highschool, playing basketball, when the coach used to punish us with windsprints, I never tired.

After college, I fell apart so to speak. I lost my wind. Smoking and drinking, were likely the main culprits. I put on a few lbs but it was really the fact that I just didn't run any more. I remember going out for a pick up basketball game and almost dying after about 15 minutes. It was one of the most terrible feelings I ever had.

I decided to get back into running, but I found it much tougher than before. My back started hurting, my feet were alway sore, I coulnd't find the pace I used to maintain. Running was no longer fun. I tried all the heel-toe techniqes runners were supposed to use, bought the best running shoes, but it still was not the same as before. Running was always a chore. I still managed to do two routes, one a 7k run and another a 12k run. Still, my body took a beating and I started to believe people who told me that running was bad for you. I kept it up because I was playing division A rugby in Canada and I knew I needed my wind to maintain pace for 80 minutes. I ran twice a week, bought amountain bike and did my cardio on wheels.

When I was 28 I was going to rugby practice on my bike and (ironically I guess) was hit by a car. It fucked me up pretty bad. I still have a lot of neck, shoulder and back pain because of it. I put me out of any strenuous activity for a good two years.

After I came to Korea, I decided to joing taekwondo. it was hell at first, stretching, running, lots of abs, the trainers were not very sensitive to my previous injuries and a couple of times they really hurt me. I think it was more due to ignorance of training an old- beat up adult as opposed to healthy un-injured kids. One thing they ade you do was run barefeet in the gy, I noticed that this was much less painful than running out doors. I attributed that to the cushioned floors we ran on.

After about seven years, I received my third degree blackbelt and began an adult programe teaching Westerners taekwondo. I emphasised fitness above the fighting. With a lot of advise from Ron Lipton I developed a pretty good training program which was focused on people who bever trained in marital arts before and was geared on building core strength and stamina. We ran 20 minutes every day. I always watched guys thcehnique; reminding them to run "heel toe" and not to run "flat footed".

One day a new guy came and I noticed his running style was totally different: he ran on his toes. He never tired, was very upright and looked very gracefull. I asked him about his running style and he told me about the book: Born to Run. He said that the book changed his life and he runs marathons in his bare feet! I asked him if he had knee or back problems and he said, "No".

I had to check out the book and all I can say is that if you are were, or want to be a runner, then you must get this book. Be ready for a great story backed up by history, folklore and science. Be ready to change your whole perception of running is damaging to the body, be ready to be re-born as a runner.

As a result of the book, I changed my technique to amidfoot style and have a lot lfewer problems than I used to.

I turn 40 next week. I did my first 10k race since I was a kid a couple of months back. I finished it easily in under an hour. Not great, but respectable. Now I run a 5 minute kilometer for usually 6 or 7 K's twice or three times a week and I feel much better now after running than I did when I was in my 20's.

10-8
07-12-2011, 10:45 PM
Funny you should post this as I was going to ask a question for runners since I took up jogging a few days ago as I'm also approaching my birthday next week (45th). I'm only doing it because I want to build and maintain a better all round fitness level as I get older. I gotta admit I don't enjoy running. It's not that it's difficult, it's just mindless to me and if it weren't for my Ipod keeping me company I probably would have quit after the first run.

Surprisingly, I have a decent background in running competing in cross country, 1600 metre, 400 metre, 100 metre and relay when I was in high school. I also ran when I trained in boxing, wrestling and tae kwon do and again when I had to fitness test for employment. Then I stopped running in 1987 and haven't ran more than a handful of times since then though I do plenty of cardio playing hockey, and stationary bike riding and am in good all-round shape.

My question then is in regards to some serious hip pain that I'm suffering. I'm not sure if it's joint related or simply muscles that I haven't used in awhile. I'm wearing quality running shoes with custom orthotic inserts (supplied by my employer's benefit plan) and running 3 KM each morning on the sidewalk. Since I weigh between 210-220 I try to run with more of a shuffle style (I don't lift my feet too high) to avoid pounding on the joints and am conscious of keeping good symetrical posture. My back, knees, ankles, feet etc...are all fine, it's just my hips.

I'm plowing through the pain and still weight training squatting heavy and playing summer hockey but I'm curious if this pain will eventually subside because if it doesn't I'll be giving it up in a hurry. Is this common?

Off The River
07-13-2011, 01:23 AM
I didn't know motor-cycle gangs provided such good benefits.

Anyhow, according to the book, it all begins with footwear and technique. First of all, running related injuries did not exist prior to the invention of the running shoe. Let that one sink in.

Next, I was always led to beleive that heel-toe is the best technique when running, when, in fact, this is likely the most damaging to the body. The impact travels up the heel, into the spine and cause a lot of damage. According to the research in the book the best technique for running is toe first style. I've done a fair bit of research on my own and have found evidence that the mid foot style is best for performance. I'm currently entertaning the notion of doing a marathon before I turn 41.

For you, with your larger frame-weight and more muscle mass, I would reccommend short easy strides, a gentle pace, buy a pair of shoes with as thin a sole as possible and work on the toes of your feet. You've got the core strength and the stamina, now it's all about learning to run all over again.

Check out this video of the Kalahari Bushmen running. At around the 3:15 mark, take a look at how he runs. Not the way I was taught. This guy ran down an antelelope for eight hours! The book is a fantastic read and is devoted not to marathon runners, but Ultra Marathn runners with the protagonists being the Taramuhara Indians of Mexico, who can run a hundred miles in sandals. And it's not the young men who are the best runners, it's the old fogies such as yourself :)

The Tramuhara Indians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIyEvomUz14

Off The River
07-13-2011, 01:40 AM
Update:

Before I hit the gym this morning, I did my 5k run in 23 minutes. That's close to a 7:30 mile. Once again, nothing spectacular, ut for a guy who lives with chronic pain and was told to stop running. It's pretty good. My goal for my next 10k rce is under 55 minutes.

10-8
07-13-2011, 07:33 AM
I didn't know motor-cycle gangs provided such good benefits.That's why we pay club dues. You should see our drug plan!

Interesting video. I think these guy's bodies have simply adapted and toughened up from a lifetime of running. The style I saw on the video was slow and steady with the feet not coming too high which is what I'm trying to do and also like you said short strides. I don't even think I go to heel to toe (not consciously anyway). Like I said earlier I 'shuffle'. There's Moms out walking their dogs who are probably going faster than I am each morning.


Won't staying more on my toes be overly taxing and fatigue the calves?

Off The River
07-13-2011, 10:11 AM
Interesting video. I think these guy's bodies have simply adapted and toughened up from a lifetime of running.

Of course their bodies are much better conditioned to handle the lond runs. But the whole premis of the book is that ALL bodies are designed specifically run above all things. Why risk death by grabbing a bull b y the horns when you can simply run it to death?


Won't staying more on my toes be overly taxing and fatigue the calves?

Not from my experience. I did notice my achilles were tender for a bit and the muscles to the side of my shins were more painful that usual. But what's wrong with stronger calves if that is the case? We tend to empahasise big quads, when maybe calf muscles are more important. The key is not to run on your tip-toes, but to be really aware of not hitting the heel first.

The other thing I have to stress is your shoes. When I run on the road, I run with a 60 dollar pair of Nike's, a very thin sole and I maintain my form much easier than any of the really expensive shoes I've owned. At the gym, I have a 150 dollar pair of Reeboks (bought on sale) with a really thick sole. Once I get fatigued my running techique goes all to hell on my extra cushioned shoes. This is something I am really aware of these days.

I had a high ankle sprain from playing basketball in university. I notice that I tend to run on the right side of my sprained foot when using the cushined soles. In the cheaper shoes, my feet are more intuned to the ground and I am more aware when my techniques starts to slip.

If you are looking at just slow easy runs, you may think about buying a pair of 'barefoot runners' and letting me know how they work.

10-8
07-13-2011, 10:28 AM
The other thing I have to stress is your shoes. When I run on the road, I run with a 60 dollar pair of Nike's, a very thin sole and I maintain my form much easier than any of the really expensive shoes I've owned. At the gym, I have a 150 dollar pair of Reeboks (bought on sale) with a really thick sole. Once I get fatigued my running techique goes all to hell on my extra cushioned shoes. This is something I am really aware of these days.

I had a high ankle sprain from playing basketball in university. I notice that I tend to run on the right side of my sprained foot when using the cushined soles. In the cheaper shoes, my feet are more intuned to the ground and I am more aware when my techniques starts to slip.

If you are looking at just slow easy runs, you may think about buying a pair of 'barefoot runners' and letting me know how they work.I had a bad experience with cheaper flat soled running shoes.

A buddy of mine who at the time was working as a jail guard gave me an extra pair of flat soled runners that the guards were issued. I went away to a cottage and thought it would be a brilliant idea to jog to the lake each morning, go for a swim, jog back and then go for a soak in the hot tub (entire distance probably 3-4 km). That routine lasted all of one day as the arches of my feet were left in ecruciating pain and I spent the rest of the week limping around. I discussed it with a guy from work who is a competitive marathon runner and he blamed it entirely on my shoes and recommended never running in those shoes again.

Maybe I should just pack 'er in and stick to the weights and stationary bike.

Off The River
07-13-2011, 11:50 PM
That routine lasted all of one day as the arches of my feet were left in ecruciating pain and I spent the rest of the week limping around

That's because you've spent the past thirty plus years purchasing the best, most "protective" footwear money can buy. The muscles in your feet have gone to hell; you essentially have to build them up again. All that support is not natural. Our feet are meant to support themselves.

One thing that would be good, is to go for a light barefoot run on a nice grass surface. Nothing too serious, but try that. I had the benefit of running barefoot in a cushioned taekwondo gym for six years before I read the book and put it all together.

There is a lot of scientific data backing up running related injuries to foot wear and the most expensive are the most damaging! There's even a case of a famous runner from the 60's or 70's who trained barefoot. He was a terrible runner at first but he loved running. He actually went from a size 12 foot to a size 10 by developing his feet muscles.

You've worked every muscle in your body for decades. How often hafe you trained your feet?

10-8
07-14-2011, 12:15 AM
Last summer I was treated for sciatica (pinched nerve) as well as tensor fascia latae syndrome (also referred to as ITBS) which originates in the muscle of the hip. I didn't put two and two together as it applies to running (since I didn't run last year) but after searching the net I believe this is the root of my hip pain.

Since it's an overuse injury (last year I was weight training heavy and rollerblading everyday as I am now) I'm going to back off on the running and ease back into it. Instead of everyday as I've been doing, maybe I'll drop it down to 2 or 3 times a week and see if the pain subsides. If not then I'll know it's in direct relation to footwear. I'll try trouble shooting one thing at a time.


http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=3528

10-8
07-14-2011, 12:21 AM
There's even a case of a famous runner from the 60's or 70's who trained barefoot. He was a terrible runner at first but he loved running. He actually went from a size 12 foot to a size 10 by developing his feet muscles.
I remember Zola Budd from the 1984 Olympics a runner who trained and competed barefoot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zola_Budd

doomeddisciple
07-14-2011, 01:29 AM
I remember that, she tripped the American girl over at the LA games or something like that.

With the pinched nerve Bill, it will only assist you in shredding more and let's face it - You might not win a running race, but you'd flog most runners with your sweet legato chops.

Off The River
07-14-2011, 02:12 AM
Yep and Abeb Bika, was an Ethiopian who won a gold medal in the 1960 Rome Olympics in barefeet.

Bare in mind that Rome's streets are made of cobblestone.

Stanford's Track coach, with 5 NCAA titles trains his atheletes barefoot. According to the book, runners using the most expensive running shoes are "123% more likely to get injured than runners in cheap shoes"

Anyhow, the runner in question was Alan Web (took me two hours to find it) Damn good book!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Webb_(athlete)

10-8
07-14-2011, 08:47 AM
With the pinched nerve Bill, it will only assist you in shredding more and let's face it - You might not win a running race, but you'd flog most runners with your sweet legato chops. LOL...If I could only combine the two (running and guitar) I could shave alot of time off each day.

Off The River
07-15-2011, 12:35 AM
LOL...If I could only combine the two (running and guitar) I could shave alot of time off each day.

If someone could only design a guitar that you could play and run simutaneously, you'd be an untramarathiner 10-8.

After skimming through the book agian last night, I decided to switch from mid foot to toe first when I went for my run this morning. I did about 10k with a steep 2k hill at a nice lesuirly pace. No problems whatsover. I ran a full hour on the fronts of my feet. After an hour, when I started losing control of my techinique, I stopped. My lungs were fine, but I was beginning to scapre my feet and I want to avoid injury above all things.

10-8
07-15-2011, 12:58 AM
If someone could only design a guitar that you could play and run simutaneously, you'd be an untramarathiner 10-8.

After skimming through the book agian last night, I decided to switch from mid foot to toe first when I went for my run this morning. I did about 10k with a steep 2k hill at a nice lesuirly pace. No problems whatsover. I ran a full hour on the fronts of my feet. After an hour, when I started losing control of my techinique, I stopped. My lungs were fine, but I was beginning to scapre my feet and I want to avoid injury above all things.I took two days off and the hip pain is now gone. I went for my same 3k run tonight and made the conscious effort to land on the fronts of my feet, mainly the balls of my feet. I'll know in the morning how my hips feel.

Now, running and practicing guitar would take a high degree of multi-tasking although I have in the past practiced guitar while simultaneously riding a stationary bike and watching TV.

For multi-task guitar playing this guy has everyone beat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iM0sdbQrJg&feature=channel_video_title

Off The River
07-15-2011, 02:09 AM
That's a helluva guitar player. I can play a G chord.

Try going from the outsides of your feet to the balls of your feet. I strongly suggest you check out the footwear. If you have a really high heel, it will be next to impossible not not land heel first. I simply can't do it in my reeboks.

Today I went to buy my wife a pair of hiking boots for our anniversary and I couldn't beleive how much cushion some shoes had. Up to three inches I swear.

10-8
07-15-2011, 10:35 AM
I strongly suggest you check out the footwear. If you have a really high heel, it will be next to impossible not not land heel first. I simply can't do it in my reeboks. I double checked my shoes and the heel is not very high. They are actually cross-trainer shoes made by SAUCONY, so although good quality probably not designed specifically for running ie: with a high heel.

I'm pain free this morning, so I'm going to chalk up my initial discomfort to the tensor fascia latae muscle being worked like it's not used to being worked. I'm going to be running 3 times a week (Mon, Wed, Fri) while my body adapts then step it up either in distance or regularity.

Off The River
07-15-2011, 11:23 AM
fascia latae? Are you talking about a porno, or coffe? Or a porno with a coffee theme?

I think three days a week is perfect. Especially for the way you train. I'm nowhere near as scientific as you are when it comes to fitness, so you may find a better pattern. Hell, I don't even use a ipod to run. I simply get up and run. I can say that it is one thing I've learned to love again. And as I improve my techinique, I love it more because, I'm not gettng the pain I got when I was in my 20's.

I've been using Nike Dart 4. I bouught it in a discount bin. Like I said, I ran once with my reeboks and that was it. Even on the tread mill they beat me up. I may even start a barefoot routine on the treadmill. After my experiment today, I think I'm going to stick with the front foot instead of my mid foot I've been using for the past year.

Off The River
07-20-2011, 01:15 AM
Update:

Did two more 10k runs last week, and one yesterday. I'm doing them in the morning and have been training in boxing in the evening.

Everything is now essentially front foot now. My speed is slow, but I run effortlessly. At this point about 10k is still the threshold I can run without sacrificing my form. My lungs handle it fine, back is excellent and my upper legs are never tired or sore du and calf muscles are never tired or sore when I run. The only problem is my lower calfs around the upper achilllies are very tender. I attribute this to not having used them before.

I celebrated my 40th birthday today with brisk 3k hard run/hike up a small mountain close to my house. Felling great. Loving my runs. Next week is a big test. I have a frined who is a marathin runner and we are going to start doing longer runs. I'm hoping he can gove me some more tips on running.

Off The River
08-03-2011, 11:26 PM
Update: Still doing 5-10k runs, I haven't really upped the distance as I'm waiting for my flexior digitorum lungus, soleus and pereoneus longus(?) muscles to become etter conditioned to my new running style. As I said earlier, overall the technique is a lot easier on my overall body, but in the lower extremities of my calves, I am quite tender after a good run.

I'e got a 51 year old Aussie buddy whom I've enlisted as my new trainer. He's in amazing shape cardio wise. He does a lot of biking and routinely runs half and full marathons; with his best time being 3:15! He's about 5'11 and maybe 150 as opposed to my 6'1" 190(I really should be 175). Anyhow, I got off work, was feeling bloated as hell and met him after he rode his bike 10 k to my house. The pace he set was tough, we did a 10k run at a much faster pace than I am normally used to, about 6 k into it, my technique stared to suffer and instead of my normal "tip tap" sound while running, I started hearing the sucffing sound of my feet scraping against the ground. At the end of MY run, we stopped for some water and went to a local park. It has a 2k course on it and he asked me to time him. He took off like a dart and 8minutes later he was back around. Amazing! He's going to take me for weekly runs and hopefully get me ready for a half marathon this fall. I'm eager to try one this summer, but he say the heat may be too much for me.

Two things he pointed out to me as we ran: First I was breathing through my nose, he told me to stop. I will get more oxygen in my lungs by breathing through my mouth. I did a 6K run this morning in just over 30 minutes with my mouth open. It was tough to do after running for thirty years through my nose, but I think I'll give it a try.

The second thing he toild mewas my hands were to high and I was too stiff in the shoulders. That is really tought to correct when you are focused on your feet. I routinely shook out my arms while running and am going to try and work on that.

One thing I'll say about trying to keep up with him. Even though I likely managed a better than normal time, I was pretty beat up afterwards; my feet and lower back were particuarly sore the next day.

10K race on August 27th my goal is 55 minutes.

Off The River
08-24-2011, 05:24 AM
If anyone has a smart phone and is doing any kind of roadwork --running, walking, hiking-- I seriously recommend the imapmyrun app.

I specifically got a new smart phone because of this app. It tracks your runs; distance and speed. It even maps it out for you. Amazing really fun to use and great for monitoring your progress.

Off The River
09-07-2011, 08:08 PM
Update: Running is going well, I'm up to about 40k a week. I'm averaging an 8k run five days a week. Everything feels ok. Knees are slightly tender, calves are still a little tight, but my lower back(my biggest running problem in the past) is feeling great.... knock! knock!).

Along with my runs, I add a boxing routine three or four days aweek, with 150 situps. 60-70 pushups, a good stretch. Two or three rounds on the rope, three rounds of shadow boxing, three rounds of mitts, and usually some kettlebell or medicine ball strength routines with squat thrusts at the end.

Now, I'm running between a 5:05k and a 5:20K. It all depens on the temperature and how I'm feeling. I ran a 10K fun race a couple of weeks ago and was dissapointed with my 56 minutes, granted it was pushing 30 degrees, but the big problem was the fact that I was too eager at the beginning. Kinda reminded me of my first 20 years of sex: I blew my load too quick!

Essentially, I came out of the gates at a 4 minute K, I was busy keeping up with the pack and never paid attention to my own race. As a result, the race wasfar tougher than it should hae been and my time suffered as a result. It was humbling (in a good way) too see 60 year old men pass me. The winner was a skinny little Kenyan. Suprise! He clocked a 31 minute 10K! Man... watching him run is breathtaking, his pace from the get-go was amazing and he told me later that he can do a 29 minute 10, but he had no one to push him! I invited him to my house next month and we're going for a run. I think he'll likely walk.

Dino1
09-13-2011, 03:36 PM
For those of you who were kind enough to ask about my running routine: I went out and purchased a $130 pair of Nike Zoom Vomero +5 which I was told was the best sneakers to run in if you are worried about your knees (I am 56 years old, but in decent shape, 6', 165 lbs, 32-in waist). To make a long story short, before I could run my first inch, like a jerk, I slipped on the stairs and sprained my ankle. I won't be able run for at least two more weeks. My goal is not to loose weight but just for cardio work. I can also probably eat a little more if I run which appeals to me.