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HE Grant
03-24-2006, 05:52 PM
Has anyone read this book on Ali ? Man oh man , this is the first warts and all , subjective, non-sugar coated account that takes Ali on and holds him accountable for his actions through the years. While it is harsh and maybe a bit over the top at times, it definately tackles many of the dark side isues of the man that time, P.R. and image spins have pushed aside through the years.

If you have not read it yet, get it. Take Joe Frazier's feelings and times it by te and spread it out over twenty years and you will start to get the picture.

Very interesting reading.

hawk5ins
03-24-2006, 06:21 PM
Put it back down.

It really didn't offer a whole lot in the way of examples, nor did it note many sources to back up amny of the claims made by the author.

A whole lot of bitter conjecture seems to liter up this book.

Mark Kram's book Ghosts of Manilla already has travelled down the road of trying to denounce and discredit many of the Ali "myths" as The late Mr. Kram, called them.

Kram, while a long time Sports Illustrated writer, needs to be taken with a grain of salt and anyone who followed the US Boxing Championships and the plauditory coverage given to it by Mr. Kram, with know of what I speak of.

That said, Kram at LEAST came at you with some what of a leg to stand on in his criticism of Ali. Cashill, really doesn't demonstrate anywhere that he really is an authority on the subject matter and mearly comes accross as someone who didn't agree with Ali and many of the stances that he made.

Reading soem of the other material that Mr. Cashill has written and we can clearly see that his Right Wing Ultra Conservative viewpoints tend to cloud, or rather purposefully flow into his writings on Ali, the times and his beleifs and viewpoints.

Let's put it this way, Jack Cashill is Bill O'Reilly to THomas Hauser's Al Franken when it comes to Ali.

The book came off as way to much of a "political offended knee jerk" response to many of the complimentary writings on Ali recently. And comparing his work to even the more critical books done by Kram and now Dave Kindred, Cashill comes off as a mean spirited hack.

Worth a Library read, but I wouldn't waste much money on it.

Hawk

GorDoom
03-24-2006, 11:35 PM
This book is more about a Re-Pug-Lick-Can's conservative world view with a BIG axe to grind than a realistic history or view of Ali.

Ali was no saint by any means but this writer is OFF the rails.

This book is a Sucker Punch ...

GorDoom

HE Grant
03-25-2006, 09:23 AM
I agree to an extent but lets also be fair..Ali has gotten away with a ton of double standards that many others have not. Joe Frazier has been a one man band for years pointing this out. Ali has also been the recipient of tremendously positive revisionist history. Ali has many times publically met and embraced Castro. He did the same with Idi Amin. There are multiple others. There are many points the author makes that while overblown, do have some basis on fact. Simply denying it here as pure garbage proves his point.

Sharkey
03-25-2006, 05:41 PM
If he is an O'Reilly to Hauser's Franken, does that mean he is crappy while Hauser is garbage?

I'm here all week.

Incidentally, open-minded Dumbocrats are usually open-minded only on things they agree with...apparently including boxing books.

PeteLeo
03-25-2006, 08:47 PM
This is getting interesting. I think I'll stand to the side and observe for a time. PeteLeo.

GorDoom
03-25-2006, 09:20 PM
Sharkey:

1- I'm not a Dumbocrat either. As far as I'm concerned both parties suck. My point was that this particular writer who has a well known right wing perspective brought his baggage to the book. Like I said Ali was no saint - he could be cruel & crass & was many times.

But this writer is over-the-top with his personal agenda. If your going to write a bio you should encompass the whole of the subject not just focus on flaws & try to spin everything so it fits your personal world view.

GorDoom

Sharkey
03-25-2006, 09:57 PM
I even tried to edit it so that it would be not likely to be taken as going after anyone. Failed.

You'll have to excuse me...I saw an old SNL skit that sucked...and it had Franken in it. He bothered me with his unfunniness and it has spilled over. Smalley was humorous...maybe twice. That and I missed most of the golf on TV assisting the fiancee with domestic activites, while listening to how my family, in particular, is rife with idiots and rude people that also are poor parents and even worse siblings and friends.

And she is liberal without the encumbrance of any particular knowledge of any particular issue. I am Republican by default. More of Kempish kind?

So I didn't mean to attack anyone.

---

I wasn't intimating any particular person on this thread was vapidly reactionarily whistfully policy solution-deficient left leaning. Or wasn't trying to. It struck me as odd however that the politics of an author in this particular instance seeping into or motivating his work was an issue as if that is not endemic to the very act of penning a book.

I am sure the entire purpose of the book was to be controversial for controversy's sake. Apparently it has achieved that aim.

GorDoom
03-25-2006, 11:04 PM
No offense taken, Sharkey. I was only trying to point out that this particular writer wasn't as Fox News would say, "Being fair & balanced."

GorDoom

Walker Smith
03-26-2006, 12:08 AM
Now, GorDoom! You are being unfair and unbalanced. You misread the small print.

When they say fair, they mean fairly unbalanced. When they say balanced, they mean unfaily balanced.

PeteLeo
03-26-2006, 02:46 AM
Funny how no one complains when yet another of the unending reams of hero-worshipping treatises devoted to Ali is dropped on the shelves every few weeks.

Personally, I'll take O'Reilly -- who I don't care for -- over the tree-huggers on CNN/NBC/CBS/ABC anytime. At least he debates folks of differing persuasions. PeteLeo.

Sharkey
03-26-2006, 11:04 AM
Fox seems unbalanced to people because the other 23 news outlets are unbalanced the OTHER way. ABCBSBCNNSNBBBC sure seem fair, right?

I'll take none of them, personally.

hawk5ins
03-27-2006, 08:45 AM
Look what I started.

To address Why no one is upset with the mutltitude of Ali hero worship books? I don't think anyone is upset, rather they are bored with them. Several are excellent. Some are very good to good. Many are reptitious and unecessary. Some just leave you scratching your head. Others just Suck.

In essence, it's been done. But why do they keep getting written? Becuase they sell.

As far as Ali getting away with his nonsense for years, I don't think he was getting away with it when he was doing it, certainly not in the 60's. And I don';t think very many true boxing fans condone his treatment of Frazier or in retrospect, find it very funny. Heck, even Hauser has been critical of Ali with regrards to his treatment of Joe.

The analogy I used with O'Reilly and Franken, to me was obvious in that, Cashill IS INDEED a Right Wing Ultra Conservative, whatever. Take a look at the books the man has written. His view point and agenda is obvious. And Hauser with all of his complimentary pieces (though his latest book on Ali, wasn't exactly embraced by Ali's wife Lonnie as it was indeed a bit more critical than some of his other works.), could obviously be put in the Liberal shoe.

Now if anyone has ever read or seen O'Reilly, you know he teneds to make exxagerated claims that he almost never will back up with a source. He just says "it's true" (you aren't not allowed to question Bill's word, I think.) Much like Cashill did in this book. Franken, can be known to stretch the boundaries of his point, but does a very taxing job (some might say OVER taxing) at providing sources where he obtained the material from to back up his claims, or at least attempt to. If anyone has ever read Hauser's book Muhammad Ali His Life and Times, you will also see that Hauser is very genreous with his foot notes. Thus the obvious comparisons.

So that was the comparison that was meant to be more lighthearted than anything else and was not intended to stir any political debate or ire.

That said, Re Franken not being that funny, I agree, much of his comic material, simply isn't funny and comes off as forced and labored (His radio show is.....different). O'Reilly on the other hand, is very funny. The thing is, he's not trying to be. I'm not sure which is worse: an unfunny comic or someone trying to be serious that is laughable.

Probably it's a wash. (Though secretly, I enjoy Franken's books. Wait. Is my internal monologue typing what I'm thinking again? Aw Crap!)

Hawk

timayres
03-27-2006, 06:25 PM
Personally, I'll take O'Reilly --

Please do!

PeteLeo
03-27-2006, 07:10 PM
Rim shot!
PeteLeo.

Sharkey
03-27-2006, 07:44 PM
Hawk5,

I love picture books too!!

hawk5ins
03-28-2006, 08:37 AM
With the fold open pop up animation?

Those are cool!

Hawk

gregbeyer
03-28-2006, 03:20 PM
no way the book could be as good as this thread.

re-pug-lick-cans...dumbocrats....

these political parties, boy....a full bottle in front of me or a full frontal lobotomy. some choices we get!
greg

Roberto Aqui
03-28-2006, 04:09 PM
re-pug-lick-cans...dumbocrats....
greg

I prefer Dimlesswits and Repugnantcans

hawk5ins
03-29-2006, 11:26 AM
MUHAMMAD ALI: HERO WITH FEET OF CLAY

"At last: a book showing how he could have pulled this nation together when it really mattered -- and instead, did just the opposite

Sucker Punch
by Cashill, Jack

"To me," said young Olympic fighter Cassius Clay to a Soviet reporter in 1960, "the USA is the best country in the world, including yours." Yet within four years, Clay had become Muhammad Ali, a high-profile member of an organization whose angry deconstruction of the American ideal played into Leftist and even Soviet hands. Now, of course, over forty years later, he is an international icon, lionized everywhere. But does he really deserve the heroic status he now enjoys? In Sucker Punch: Ali, Islam, and the Betrayal of the Dream, Jack Cashill says no -- and introduces you to the real Ali, a craven opportunist and manipulator who has betrayed the dream of Martin Luther King, served as a wedge that deepened the alienation and mistrust between whites and blacks in America, and set the stage for major Leftward shifts in American politics and culture.

Cashill notes that Ali has been one of the few public figures to grow in stature with each passing year. Yet he shows that Ali's life tells a different story. From his association with Nation of Islam founder Elijah Muhammad's venomous racism to his public humiliation of his wife Belinda and boxer Joe Frazier (actually a much nobler and more heroic figure than Ali himself), to his glib and self-serving refusal to serve in Vietnam, Ali has been anything but heroic. And the telling and ugly record of his actual words and deeds sheds considerable light both on Ali and the generation that made him.

Cashill introduces you to Muhammad Ali the anti-hero, who:

Knowingly betrayed Malcolm X, a betrayal that led at least indirectly to Malcolm's assassination

Publicly turned his back on his press secretary, Leon 4X Ameer, leading to Ameer's death

Did not quit the Nation of Islam or make any public protest when Nation of Islam "activists" murdered five friends and family of a rival sect -- four of them children

Spent at least four years publicly degrading Joe Frazier, often along the crudest racial lines, and fostering an entirely unjust popular association of this black fighter with white racism and hatred of blacks

Verbally and physically abused Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell, two other boxers who had more integrity than Ali, and did not deserve his savage attacks

Unapologetically affirmed that "in the Islamic world the man's the boss, and the woman stays in the background" -- and yet still receives the adulation of feminists

Rejected his wife and the mother of his children and fathered children out of wedlock -- including at least one with a teenage girl

Remained an unabashed racist until near the end of his boxing career, calling for an American apartheid and the lynching of interracial couples

Routinely denigrated black heroes who did not share his point of view, including Joe Louis (who did more to advance the cause of civil rights than Ali ever thought of doing, and was a genuine patriot), Jackie Robinson, and Thurgood Marshall

Supervised the fictionalization of his own history, so that his comfortable middle-class upbringing has given way to a "poorer, tougher, and blacker" race-baiting, demagogic myth

Lied that his own white blood "came from the slave masters, from raping," while covering up the peaceful interracial marriages among his forbears

Expressed open hatred for his native land ("America don't have no future. America's going to be destroyed") as late as 1975

Covered up the support that his hero and mentor, Elijah Muhammad of the Nation of Islam, gave to the Axis Powers during World War II

Continuously belittled and undermined Christianity, a bedrock of cultural stability in black America

Shamelessly courted some of the most brutal dictators on the planet: Qaddafi, Idi Amin, Papa Doc Duvalier, Nkrumah, Mobutu, Marcos

Abetted the subversion and suppression of key facts about his own public life and about other people and events that do not fit today's Ali myth

Rejected his country in its hour of need and expressed no regret at the fate of those millions we all abandoned

Threw salt into the wounds of America's racial divide at a time when he could have been an immense force for healing them

Sucker Punch will surprise everyone who has grown up with the sanitized, fictionalized Ali myth -- and that's why it is crucial reading for every veteran of the culture wars. By exposing the hollow center of the Ali industry, this book offers a sobering and insightful glimpse into one of the foremost successes of the Left's efforts to rewrite history and subvert our culture.

National Book Review"

Stomach it if you can.

Note: What I personally find rather amusing and horribly shortsighted, is this noton that Ali could have pulled the nation together had he NOT chosen the religious path that he did.

Huh? The entire reason Ali had the platform that he did and why he was on the FRONT page of the paper and not just the Sports page, was a direct result of his religious affiliation. His controversy and the reason he transcended sports was becuase of what he stood for and who he was associated with.

Does anyone think that Ali's voice would have been as loud or as powerful (in that when he spoke, folks DID tend to listen, although they didn't necessarily agree with him.) had he become Heavyweight champion, yet stayed a Baptist and Never associated with either Malcolm X or Elijah Muhammad? Does anyone think Howard Cosell, attaches himself with Ali in the manner he did, if everything that happend with Ali OUTSIDE of the ring, never took place?

And with a voice that NEVER would have reached the masses the way it did, exactly HOW was Ali going to unite the country? How would what he said, not only have made difference, but actually gotten into print?

Does this make ANY sense to anyone?

Hawk

timayres
03-29-2006, 01:51 PM
I agree Hawk. The country was divided for very real reasons, domestic and foreign. No different than any other nation facing legitimate social unrest. Ali was a factor, but no one man could have "divided the nation", or conversely, "heal" it.

I also tend to think that the people who identify with the power base are more likely to want everthing to get "healed", but not necessarily improved. Some times you just have to be a trouble maker and fight for what is right- they aren't going to give it to you. Ali was put in the forefront due to his fame, he talked a lot, not all the words came out the way I would have liked, but he did stand up and be counted.

Tim

hawk5ins
08-14-2006, 03:33 PM
Bump for recent new thread on this subject.

Hawk