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View Full Version : Time for Calzaghe to be listed as champ



apollack
04-14-2006, 04:55 PM
I think it is about time for Joe Calzaghe to be listed as the CBZ lineal champ.

GorDoom
04-14-2006, 05:11 PM
When & if he beats Kessler ( I may have the name wrong but the Danish title holder), he will be.

GorDoom

apollack
04-15-2006, 12:37 AM
What has Kessler done and when has he done it? Calzaghe has been champ for years and has defeated all the best guys out there during that time. He has the longevity, the undefeated record, the superior opponents, and just beat a young talent in a brilliant performance. He's the champ in my book unless someone takes it from him. Even if he never fights Kessler, he should go down in history as a great 168 pound champion.

Calzaghe was WBO champ before Kessler even turned pro. He has earned championship recognition threw longevity and excellent performances, as well as fighting top opposition. He has guys like Chris Eubank, Robin Reid, Rich Woodhall, Charles Brewer, Byron Mitchell, and Jeff Lacy on his resume. No other supermiddle today can compare to that. He IS the champion of the world.

BDeskins
04-15-2006, 02:23 AM
Calzaghe has held the very weak WBO title for years and he has dodged the best for years...he steps up and faces Lacy and I hear a lot of people trying to mention Calzaghe in the same sentences as true all time greats and even mention his name in Hall of Fame sentences, which is just ridiculous. Let him earn the champion status, which he can do by beating Kessler and Beyer and not by facing guys like Mario Veit...twice...some might let him slide by just beating Kessler, but I think the division should be unified before the true label of champion should be placed beside a fighter...and Calzaghe certainly is not the champion...yet...he can be, but he's not! If Calzaghe is to be listed then so should Sven Ottke, Chris Eubank, Steve Collins and a host of others who never really were the true champions, but they did hold on to one alphabet title for a long time!

GorDoom
04-15-2006, 12:55 PM
Very well put, Barry. Couldn't have explained it better myself. It's like Riy Jones. He NEVER was the lineasl light heavy tileholder because the erman guy Darius M....... was the champion. Could Roy have beaten him?

Sure.

But he didn't & thus was never the lineal champ no matter how many spurious belts he collected.

GorDoom

apollack
04-15-2006, 11:14 PM
So who was the champ all these years? Who did more and took on more tests than Calzaghe at 168?

eastla_hobo
04-16-2006, 03:23 PM
So who was the champ all these years? Who did more and took on more tests than Calzaghe at 168?

I agree, Calzaghe has beaten the better opposition, and literally gave a boxing lesson to "Left Hook Lacey", considered at the time to be the future of the division. His performance against Lacey was par with the destruction of Trinidad by Winky Wright. I'm shocked that the so called pundits continue to ignore him and not list him in their P4P lists:rolleyes:

Crold1
04-16-2006, 03:58 PM
I think Gor is right; I was among those who was pissed that Lacy was being leap frogged over Kessler. beat Mikkel and I'll be happy to call him champ

Boxingnut
04-17-2006, 06:45 AM
Who exactly has Calzaghe dodged? Sven Ottke was offered a £1 million to fight Calzaghe and turned it down. Deals were in place to fight Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins before Jones and Hopkins demanded more money. Hardly Calzaghe's fault.

The Veit fights were mandatories both times. Sure, some of his title competition has been less than stellar but in 18 defences that is almost bound to happen. He has fought more good than bad, imo.

No way is he an all-time great or a hall of famer but let's give the guy some credit.

Boxingnut
04-17-2006, 06:46 AM
Who exactly has Calzaghe dodged? Sven Ottke was offered a £1 million to fight Calzaghe and turned it down. Deals were in place to fight Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins before Jones and Hopkins demanded more money. Hardly Calzaghe's fault.

The Veit fights were mandatories both times. Sure, some of his title competition has been less than stellar but in 18 defences that is almost bound to happen. He has fought more good than bad, imo.

No way is he an all-time great or a hall of famer but let's give the guy some credit.

doomeddisciple
04-18-2006, 02:02 AM
Bruno Girad is the last listed "lineal" 168lbs champ - Kessler deserves a fight with Clazaghe to help decide what is what here - Fighting Peter Manfredo Jnr isn't a very enticing way to start Calzaghes revitalised career...

BDeskins
04-18-2006, 03:00 AM
Like I have said, I think a division needs to be unified before the label of champion is given...which DM never did, Roy Jones did unify, but we will not get into that discussion.

Calzaghe gets credit for doing what he has done, but what he has done is really nothing special. Other than Ottke, Calzaghe failed to face Steve Collins and Frank Liles to name a couple of others and if anyone really thinks that Calzaghe would have gotten anywhere near a ring with Roy Jones in it, well the word delusional comes to mind, hell Calzaghe was making excuses four months before the Lacy bout...just in case he did lose!

Someone mentioned that Lacy was considered to be the future of the division, which is no big deal considering the 168 pound division has never been a real "hot" division and Calzaghe's impressive win does not come anywhere close to comparing to what Winky Wright did to Trinidad...Trinidad was a proven world champion, who had won a slew of big, big fights against some of the better boxers of the past 10 to 15 years...Lacy held no wins over any very significant opponent, unless you consider old Robin Reid P4P material. Calzaghe beat Lacy as bad as Wright beat Trinidad, but Lacy is no where near Trinidad's league and never will be! It was not a case of Calzaghe rising above, which he did and then some, as much as it was a case of Lacy being exposed as the very one dimensional fighter he is. I mean hell, Omar Sheika bounced rights off of Lacy's head all night when they fought...as did several other opponents in his short career. It was a surprise that Calzaghe won so easily, but then again...it really wasn't!

It was nothing new to people who had watched Lacy's career. When he first started I said that he hit as hard as anyone I had ever seen at that particular stage in his career, which was around his fifth, or sixth fight, but that view changed after he stepped up in competition and no longer blowed away the opposition and it was rather easy to see during the past couple of years that Lacy's days were really numbered, though I did not expect Calzaghe to beat him...but he did very easily! Like I said, let Calzaghe earn it then I will gladly call him champion, but not before.

Also, a couple of days after the Calzaghe win over Lacy, I told someone that Calzaghe has a real chance to prove his worth as a fighter, but I said I doubted very much that he would. I said instead of doing what he should and fight the likes of Kessler, or Beyer, Calzaghe will likely fall right back into his comfortable routine of fighting the weak oppositioin that the WBO always seems to place in front of they're champions, which someone mentioned that Calzaghe is not fight Kessler, or Beyer next, but instead fighting Peter Manfredo...I rest my case with that!

Roberto Aqui
04-18-2006, 07:26 AM
Also, a couple of days after the Calzaghe win over Lacy, I told someone that Calzaghe has a real chance to prove his worth as a fighter, but I said I doubted very much that he would. I said instead of doing what he should and fight the likes of Kessler, or Beyer, Calzaghe will likely fall right back into his comfortable routine of fighting the weak oppositioin that the WBO always seems to place in front of they're champions, which someone mentioned that Calzaghe is not fight Kessler, or Beyer next, but instead fighting Peter Manfredo...I rest my case with that!

Don't claim to be a Calzaghe expert, but he is now widely viewed as The Man by the boxing public at large which has more credence than the bogus lineal title some rarified few like to tout.

My guess the Manfredo bout gives him even more American exposure than the Lacy bout gave him since Manfredo brings in crossover Contender fans. This would properly set up his superfight with Roy which seems to be what he really wants for both personal and financial reasons.

Boxingnut
04-18-2006, 08:25 AM
.

Calzaghe gets credit for doing what he has done, but what he has done is really nothing special. Other than Ottke, Calzaghe failed to face Steve Collins and Frank Liles to name a couple of others and if anyone really thinks that Calzaghe would have gotten anywhere near a ring with Roy Jones in it, well the word delusional comes to mind, hell Calzaghe was making excuses four months before the Lacy bout...just in case he did lose!



But Ottke turned down Calzaghe not the other way around. Collins vacated the WBO title and retired rather than face Calzaghe hence the reason why Calzaghe faced Eubank for the vacant WBO title. And it would it really be a surprise (or delusional), given their track records in negotations, that Jones and/or Hopkins would agree deals in principle and then ask for more money?

BDeskins
04-18-2006, 08:55 AM
>>>Don't claim to be a Calzaghe expert, but he is now widely viewed as The Man by the boxing public at large which has more credence than the bogus lineal title some rarified few like to tout.<<<

The more knowledgeable boxing public, at large, considers Calzaghe as someone who could be the man...but not yet.

But then there are those that continue to cheapen what it means and takes to be a true champion in boxing today as they would like to call Calzaghe champion and let it slide that the fact of the situation is that there are two other very, very formidable belt holders at 168, one of whom would love to get Calzaghe in the ring, yet some would rather just name Calzaghe champion just for the sake of having a champion, which just continues to cheapen the title and making things easier and easier for fighters to get the claim of “champion,” which in part has help to put boxing in the absolute miserable shape that it is now in today.

Had Calzaghe chose to face Kessler, who has been calling for the fight, then we could have had a fighter who would be very credible of the title of champion, which then could be summed up by facing Beyer and then the winner of that bout would be true champion without any doubt and it would have been truly earned in the right way, by fighting and beating the others who hold claim in a division, but some would rather just go ahead and name Calzaghe champion because he has held the weakest of the alphabet titles for several years…I’d prefer to see him earn it in the ring.

But that's just my view...if someone would rather name one of the fighters at 168 champion just because there is no undeniable leader and just because the slot is vacant, then go for it...that your prerogative, but I'll prefer to stay with a system that makes a fighter actually earn the title of champion!

Now Mikkel Kessler is free for a bout and he has been calling Calzaghe out for a while now so what does the supposed "people's champion" do...he chooses to fight the likes of Peter Manfredo, which proves absolutely nothing, nor does it do anything for Calzaghe's career other than show that he is not interested in fighting the best.

Crold1
04-18-2006, 11:34 PM
Cal never had agreed to fights with Jones and Hopkins; where do people get this stuff. Stop reading press releases from fighters you want to favor

Boxingnut
04-19-2006, 08:45 AM
I don't read press releases, believe what you want.

Todd
04-19-2006, 09:04 AM
I remember Calzaghe asking Jones to drop to 168 to fight him (when Jones was at 175).

hawk5ins
04-19-2006, 09:11 AM
When we say agreed to fight, what exactly are we saying? Signed contract? Agreed in principal? Any negotiations underway? One fighter simply calling out another?

I'm not saying these agreements with Jones and or Hopkins never happened, but I seriously don't recall where any SERIOUS talks were ever underway. And with Jones AND Hopkins, nothing IMO is serious until contracts are signed. And even then, I'm never certain of the fight until they are actually in the ring.

I'm just looking for a timeframe as to when these agreements were underway.

Just curious.

Hawk

BDeskins
04-20-2006, 04:38 AM
>>>I remember Calzaghe asking Jones to drop to 168 to fight him (when Jones was at 175).<<<

He asked Jones to move down after Jones had been fighting at 175 for a few years. Actually, I think it was after Joines had moved up to heavyweight!

Calzaghe is also daring James Toney to move back down to 168, then he promises to really give Toney an ass-kicking! That's some real tough, but very, very safe talk!

Roberto Aqui
04-20-2006, 10:45 AM
Calzaghe is also daring James Toney to move back down to 168, then he promises to really give Toney an ass-kicking! That's some real tough, but very, very safe talk!

I'd pick a host of welts through lightheavies to beat Toney. He's fat and cant' come after anyone. Just take a little guy who can stick and move and hunt and peck Toney down. Nobody would sanction these fights though they were common back when.

GorDoom
04-20-2006, 01:28 PM
This is an editorial by my partner, Mike DeLisa from a couple of years back. In it he delineates our standards for someone to be a universally accepted lineal champion:

What the CBZ Means When it Refers to “Lineal Championships”

By Mike DeLisa



For the past decade, the Cyber Boxing Zone has listed what have come to be referred to as “Lineal World Champions” in each weight division. Frequently, we get e-mails or other inquiries as to how we derived such lists.

First, and most importantly, we emphasize the difference in meaning between the words linear and lineal. Linear, of course, means a straight line. Obviously, champions in just about every weight division have relinquished their crowns by retiring, moving up in weight, or dying, so that concept is irrelevant.

We use the concept lineal, which means “descended from.” Every title that we list “descends” from some champion or from a specific group of men who fought each other to establish a champion.

Lineal does not mean “unification” of the WBA, WBC, and IBF titles. Indeed, we give only slight weight to the alphabet crowns. For example, on our heavyweight page, we state: “As always, ludicrous decisions of ‘sanctioning bodies’ are ignored.” On our middleweight page, we state it slightly differently: “This list gives credit to The Man Who Beat The Man. Ludicrous decisions of sanctioning bodies are ignored.”

Our junior-middleweight page explains one slight glitch in establishing the lineage:

“The following list gives credit to The Man Who Beat The Man. As you will note, the division had two reputable claimants who essentially created the division in 1962. Moyer’s lineage has been followed as Griffith abandoned the ‘title.’”

On the junior-bantamweight page, I give a little more detail as to our reasoning:

“The 115-pound division was included as part of NY’s Walker Law of 1920, but our research does not reveal any claimants to that title. The WBC resurrected the 115-poud class in 1980, with Venezuelan Rafael “Patono” Orono winning the title. Orono lost to Chul-Ho Kim and then regained it from Kim in 1982, and then he lost to Payao Poontarat. The WBA’s title started in 1981 with Gustavo Ballas, who lost to Rafael Pedroza, who lost to Jiro Watanabe in 1982. Poontarat fought Watanabe in July 1984 for the lineal title.”

As far as the objection that this theory honors “bad decisions”—yup, we abide by the decisions in the ring. Virtually every fight has at least some reporters differing from the official judges, so we go with the official decision.

Perhaps the most frequently cited objection deals with Roy Jones Jr., who was never lineal light-heavyweight champion. At the time Tiger Michalczewski beat Virgil Hill, they were the two best in the division, and thus established the man to beat. Jones never fought the German, so even though he was clearly the best fighter in the division for some period of time, he was not the lineal champ.

I would like to point out that for at least the past 80 years, fractured titles have been a way of life. The NBA, NYSAC, and IBU organizations frequently named their own champions. At that time, however, The Ring magazine effectively listed the lineal champions. Today, The Ring has forfeited its credibility by pulling names out of its ass to name fighters as champions.

For more info on lineal champions as we designate them, go to our Past Champions section and click around. Feel free to post any questions on the CBZ message board.

Todd
04-20-2006, 02:38 PM
>>>I remember Calzaghe asking Jones to drop to 168 to fight him (when Jones was at 175).<<<

He asked Jones to move down after Jones had been fighting at 175 for a few years. Actually, I think it was after Joines had moved up to heavyweight!

Calzaghe is also daring James Toney to move back down to 168, then he promises to really give Toney an ass-kicking! That's some real tough, but very, very safe talk!

That's my point, Barry. Asking a guy who's firmly planted in a weight class to move DOWN to you, in order to be the challenger, isn't a serious attempt to make a fight. Why didn't he move up to light-heavy, beat someone, and the challenge Jones?

Crold1
04-20-2006, 11:11 PM
Boxingnut: Do you know where anyone can find documented evidence of thse fights being agreed to besides Frank warren saying so? If not...stop rerading press releases and thinking they're news.

Boxingnut
04-21-2006, 06:38 AM
Firstly Crold who the the fuck do you think you are speaking to me like that? I have tried to keep it civil but now fuck it.

If I posted a 1000 times I could not come up with a post as pompous and as condescending as "where do people get this stuff?".

There is a guy on a British board who works for Sports Network. How do I know he works there? For a start he regularly has information, days and weeks in advance, which is not commonly known to do with SN fighters which then happens. He has admitted he works for FW. I PM'ed this guy and asked him directly "Did Jones or Hopkins sign to fight Calzaghe and then ask for more money?"

His reply was:


"Hopkins did, although not Jones as far as I can remember.

Hopkins signed to fight, and was being paid a career high purse at the time, I think it was approximately $4million. He then asked for double what was initially agreed, much to the surprise of Jay Larkin at Showtime. The deal in place would have seen the winner fight Jones and Jones had agreed in principal."

No doubt this isn't good enough for you either. Nor would "documentary evidence" be good enough either, you have made your mind up already.

Finally do not tell me what I can and cannot do. These boards are for everyone not just you.

GorDoom
04-21-2006, 11:16 AM
Calm down, boys. Let's keep it civil. Not taking any sides here just don't want to see a flame war about something so inconsequential.

Peace & Profits,

GorDoom

Todd
04-21-2006, 11:45 AM
Here's one:

THE PEOPLE
August 11, 2002, Sunday

BOXING: WARREN STICKS NUT ON CHAMP OVER POUNDS 4MCAL FIGHT!
By David Hyde

UNDISPUTED world middleweight champ Bernard Hopkins has been branded a "nutter" by promoter Frank Warren for demanding pounds 4 million to fight Joe Calzaghe.

Last week promoter Warren thought he was on the brink of a deal with Hopkins to fight Calzaghe in front of a 50,000 crowd at Cardiff's Millenium Stadium later this year.

But Warren was floored when the American first asked for £2 million - then doubled his demands 48 hours later.

"That's fantasy money, the guy's a nutter. We'd have to sell tickets at pounds 1,000 each," said Warren. But he believes the fight can be salvaged.

Provided Calzaghe disposes of Puerto Rican Miguel Jiminez in the 11th defence of his WBO super-middleweight title to become king of Cardiff Castle next Saturday night, Warren says: "I think Hopkins and his advisers will come back."

Calzaghe insists he does not want to be an ordinary Joe fighting ordinary opponents, but so far all attempts to entice Hopkins and light-heavyweight king Roy Jones jnr to meet him in the ring have failed.

Calzaghe, who won the title against Chris Eubank five years ago, maintains: "I'd rather beat Hopkins and call it a day than fight, say, five more ordinary fighters. I've beaten good opponents but I have not beaten a great fighter yet.

"I hope the Hopkins fight comes off because I believe 100 per cent I'll knock him out. He's 38 and starting to slide. I'll be too fast and too powerful for him."

Following two years of unproductive negotiations, he has just about given up on fighting Jones, who defends against Clinton Woods, the WBC mandatory challenger from Sheffield, in Portland, Oregon, in September.

"Jones continues to hand-pick venues and opponents to suit him," said Calzaghe.

"I wish Clinton all the best but he's up against it. You need plenty of movement and hand speed because Jones is so quick he can do what he wants.

"The light-heavyweight division is poor and Jones has fought no-one with anywhere near my handspeed."

Calzaghe, now 30 and approaching his peak, wants big fights - and superstar pay days - and he wants them now.

"I always said I would get out at 32 or 33, I don't want to hang around too long," he said.

"Once I feel my standards are slipping I'll know it's time to go but if I beat Bernard Hopkins, my pay cheques will get a lot better."

One punch could end the dreams of fame and fortune Calzaghe has been chasing for so long. But he is determined not to slip up against 32-year-old Jiminez. The Las Vegas-based fighter has lost just once in 22 fights, but he falls into the ordinary category when the names of his opponents are analysed.

He was a late replacement for American tough-nut David Telesco, who took Jones the full 12 rounds, but Calzaghe pledged: "I've given him every respect - that's the reason he's going to get knocked out."

Boxingnut
04-21-2006, 12:26 PM
Calm down, boys. Let's keep it civil. Not taking any sides here just don't want to see a flame war about something so inconsequential.

Peace & Profits,

GorDoom

Fair enough Gor, I always try and be civil on any board, but I won't sit back when someone is rude either.

Steve Coughlin
04-21-2006, 12:39 PM
…but what exactly does a UK fighter have to do to earn a little respect around here? Before the Lacy bout, almost to a man, the thought amongst the CBZ community was that Calzaghe would FINALLY be exposed by the far superior Lacy. Hands up – how many of you predicted Lacy by KO inside 10? Then, after Joe produces a near masterpiece, the talk becomes something like everyone knew that Lacy wasn’t really that talented or experienced enough for the bout.

I’ve read in a few places besides here that Calzaghe can’t be called the champion until he beats Markus Beyer or Mikkel Kessler. While both guys are pretty solid fighters, I don’t see either of them having superior competition on their resumes. Since Calzaghe won his title in 1997, Beyer’s best win came against Omar Sheika. And he’s lost to Glenn Catley and Cristian Sanavia during that time. Kessler won his title in 2002, a full 7 years after Calzaghe beat Chris Eubank. Other than Beyer and Kessler, is there anyone in the division that could last past the 6th round with Joe? I don’t think so.

Kostya Tszyu was, in my humble opinion, one the best Jr. Welterweight Champion ever and also one of the top P-4-P fighters of the last decade. And after Ricky Hatton dominates him, what does he get for his efforts? Nothing short of derision, that’s what. If you dare even mention that you think, as I STRONGLY do, that Hatton would beat Mayweather, people call the mental health facility nearest you to have you committed. And those are the nicer people.

GorDoom
04-21-2006, 12:52 PM
What Ricky got was lineal jr. welterweight championship of the world. Just like Baldomir is the lineal welter champ after beating Judah. The fact that the IBF didn't recognise him is irrelevant. He beat a lineal champ with a line that goes all the way back to Sweet Pea.

I agree that Calzaghe is probably the best super middle. But just because you want to give him the title doesn't make it right.

You have to EARN a lineal championship.

GorDoom

GorDoom
04-21-2006, 01:22 PM
PRESS RELEASE FROM TEAM CALZAGHE


Joe Calzaghe On Lacy, Jones and Manfredo

As speculation continues to mount surrounding the selection of "Super" Joe Calzaghe's next opponent, the Welsh Wizard goes into his scheduled July 8 outing at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium still riding high from the utter domination of Jeff Lacy less than two months ago. "Against Lacy, I think that I fought the best I ever have and also I think that maybe he took the fight for granted," said Calzaghe. "I had Lacy on my mind morning, noon and night for a few months. I had never been so psyched up and so focused on any fight. It was a dangerous contest and I knew I had to perform. I set myself a standard in the last fight and now people will be expecting that kind of performance from me all of the time."

It's still not clear who WBO/IBF Super Middleweight Champion Calzaghe, 41-0 (31), will face on the 8th of July but the sharply skilled southpaw comments on recent reports that American fighter Peter Manfredo, who received widespread notoriety on both side of the Atlantic for appearing on NBC's "The Contender" TV program, is being considered. "Peter Manfredo is just one of the fighters that we've taken a look at on the list of who was available to fight," said Joe. "For obvious reasons, we'd prefer to fight an American. If you asked me about Manfredo six months ago, I probably would have laughed, but at the end of the day he's stepped up and had a good win over Pemberton and got himself ranked, so he's a possibility."

One fighter that Calzaghe is not particularly interested in facing is Roy Jones, Jr., despite the fact that the former pound for pound king of the sport was at the top of the Welshman's hitlist for years. "Jones has been knocked out in two of his last three fights, so of course I'm not looking to fight him the way I used to," said Calzaghe. "I don't think that fight is going to happen because my promoter Frank Warren was speaking to Jones' people the other day and I think Jones has just basically priced himself out, asking for too much money. He's been knocked out a couple of times now and if I knock him out then people will say 'big deal, he's an old man'. Or, if all of a sudden Roy Jones has a good fight then I'm gonna get slagged off for that. I'd rather fight a good fighter in his prime rather than a good fighter that's on the slide."

Calzaghe is fully aware that the bout on July 8 is the most dangerous of his career given the enormous potential opportunities that will go down the drain should he lose. "I'm looking forward to getting an opponent that I can focus on and getting back into training and fighting in the ring," he said. "Obviously, more people are going to take notice of me next time I fight, so I want to give a real performance again and make a good impression. Against Lacy, I showed what I could do as a boxer.

"For 12 entire rounds, every single minute of every single round, I put on a masterclass. So, whatever I do in the future now, I want to go onto bigger and better things but I do feel a big, massive relief as far as my boxing career goes. I finally silenced the doubters and people who said that I had never fought anybody. Although I'd been a champion for eight years, I was never really given recognition because people said I was a protected European fighter who avoided all the top Americans. Right now I'm basically getting 100% recognition all around and that's great."

Steve Coughlin
04-21-2006, 04:52 PM
I’m not asking anyone to give Calzaghe anything other than respect, Gor. But the thought that Beyer and Kessler are somehow superior or even at his level is annoying to me.

Since Calzaghe has won his title (the guy’s been the champion at 168 since 1997) Beyer has lost his share of the title TWICE. Why should Beyer have ANY say in this? Maybe HE needs to beat Calzaghe to be considered ? And Kessler, while a pretty good fighter & prospect, hasn’t done anything to distinguish himself as someone Calzaghe *must* face. He won the title from the limited Manny Siaca and defended it against Tony “America deserved 9/11” Mundine and Eric Lucas. While all of them are world rated Super Middleweights, they aren’t the second comings of Nigel Benn or Chris Eubank to be sure.

The point I was trying to make is probably summed up best in the flowing rhetorical question:

“If Lennox Lewis, Naseem Hamed, Ricky Hatton and Joe Calzaghe were AMERICAN, would they receive anywhere near the criticism they have been?”

My gut tells me ‘NO”.

wildhawke11
04-21-2006, 09:35 PM
Steve
Why should anything be different today then it was years ago.
Remember when Randy Turpin won the Title from Sugar Ray Robinson years ago here in UK. Well the excuse given for Ray's loss was that Robinson never took the fight serious. Was that the same reason that in the return Robinson was again in danger of losing the fight which was pretty close at the time. Till the great Robinson proved his class by stopping Turpin. Why did they not excuse Turpin's loss in that one by saying that Randy had not been in the best shape anyway because of the wine women and song life that unfortunately he loved so much. Some are inclined to play the cards as they think fit not as they really are at times.

I agree with you also on Hatton not really getting the full credit due for beating Tszyu who before Ricky beat him most were saying he was still one of the best fighters around. Hatton beats him and suddenly he was past prime and a shadow of the fighter he once was. If that is true then i think our boy played a big part in making him such.

Now Jeff Lacy was going to destroy that overrated fighter from Britain as of course Lacy was the new star emerging. Our boy gave him a boxing lesson and made him look like a novice. Again some now turned on Lacy and by all accounts he had been overrated it seems.

Lennex Lewis of course in spite of only being down i think twice in about 18 championship fights of course has a bad chin. This is the same guy who past his prime took the big Russian's best shots which had put nearly everyone else down. Its only after Lewis quit boxing that he started getting the acclaim that he rightly earned in the ring.

You can always find an excuse for a fighter losing if you really want to but i prefer to at most times say "The better man on the day won"

GorDoom
04-21-2006, 10:05 PM
Steve & Danny:

First off: I have nothing but the utmost respect for the number he did on Lacy. It was an absolutely masterful performance. It was among the most dominating perfomances I've ever seen between to titilists. This was right up there with Mayweather-Corrales or Hopkins-Trinidad.

But like Bernard in the Tito fight, where has THIS Joe been all these years? Hopefully, unlike Hop he can go on to match that brilliance again. BUT ... Just because he was so superior that night, the CBZ cannnot abandon the crieteria we set 11 years ago when the CBZ began, for establishing a lineal champion.

I also respect both of your views as hard core boxing guys. I've known Steve for years & he has done some writing for us. Danny, well he's the ol' & wily Wikdhawke ain't he? One of everybody's faves on this board.

But as much as I like & respect you guys we can't just bestow a Lineal World Championship when it hasn't been EARNED ... Quite yet.

regards,

GorDoom

wildhawke11
04-22-2006, 07:03 AM
Bucket
I would never dispute the Lineal Champion is the real champ.
I was really making the point that sometimes people can be a little biased against fighters from outside of their own country (in your case i agree this is not true) As many times i have heard you quite rightly give praise to a fighter who has beaten a USA fighter. Its not of course as bad as i remember years ago but still in some it exists that only the best come from USA.
Cheers Mate -As we in the UK say

BDeskins
04-22-2006, 09:48 AM
I often hear people say what does Calzaghe have to do for respect...well, he took big strides by beating Jeff Lacy, but if he follows that up with a bout against a Peter Manfredo, or someone of that caliber, then what kind of respect would he deserve?

Had the bout with Lacy been the other way around and Lacy was the winner I guarantee that people would not be parading Lacy around as the greatest 168 pounder that ever lived, nor would he have been mentioned as a certain hall of famer...sure there would be some who would try to claim that Lacy was true champion at 168 because of the win, but it would be wrong...just like it is wrong to try to name Calzaghe the true champion...he can be the champion, but that's up to him!

Personally, I could care less what country a fighter is from...as long as he gives his best and shows a real desire to not only be the best, but a desire to fight the best, or at least fight the very best competition available, then I will respect the hell out of him. Guys like Rafael Marquez, Manny Pacquiao, Ricky Hatton...they are all from different countries, but I'm going to root for them regardless of who they are fighting...an American, or whatever.

Calzaghe has the opportunity to really shine right now and really prove his worth, but what will he do...will he face Kessler, or Beyer...two fights that make all sense and the only two fights at 168 that mean anything at all right now, or will he go for another easy, useless, empty win against an opponent who has little to no chance at all of winning?

Now if he chose to take the Kessler, or Beyer route then Calzaghe will get respect, and rightfully so, but if he chooses to go after a Willaim Joppy, or Peter Manfredo...then you tell me...why should he get any respect for taking that route?

Boxingnut
04-22-2006, 10:37 AM
To some Calzaghe will always be the sicknote who slapped rubbish opposition around whilst always defending his belt within the comfy confines of the UK. Happily on this board the US guys gave Calzaghe full respect after the Lacy fight, not so on other boards where some guys from the US wanted Calzaghe disqualified! For what, I'm not sure, possibly the backhander in the 11th he lost the point for.

I agree that the Manfredo match is awful; it is like the Tocker Pudwill fight all over again. Apparently, according to UK media, Beyer was seriously considered for July 8 but the Germans don't like the date. It is the day before the soccer World Cup Final which is being held in Germany and is a big deal in the rest of the world, if not the US. FW has said he views the July 8 fight as Calzaghe's "homecoming" (it is at the Millenium Stadium in Wales). Therefore you can forget about the opponent being tough.

I read two interesting things in Calzaghe's recent interview with Boxing News (well I thought they were interesting). Firstly Enzo Calzaghe has never boxed, which is unusual for a trainer, plus he has the look of a boxer I think!
Secondly Kessler is actually half-English (his mother is English) so he may get some support if a Calzaghe-Kessler is bout held in the UK!

diggity
04-22-2006, 12:22 PM
I agree with Bucket.
Calzaghe IMO has been the man for years but the proof department for lineal is a little slim.
Dismantling Lacy is a great statement but he has more to do. I have no doubt he can be lineal but for right now he is just "the man".

I hate getting into the whole "who made this fight fall through" thing but Calzaghe has the most fights I have ever heard or seen being pulled from the table in recent history. Regardless of what someone hears personally,
fights fall apart for a plethora of reasons other than money. IMO if you are not at the negotiating table with all facts or included in the actual process in some shape or form, everything that gets reported is typically just fractured information and opinions, holding little truth.

In Calzaghe's case I think a lot has to do with Warren and I think even more that Calzaghe was not worth the money for the hassle and proved to be as much with Lacy. Kudos to Lacy & camp to go where others wouldn't.

doomeddisciple
04-24-2006, 02:59 AM
Hatton was also the Ring magazine's first ever UK fighter of the year.

To be the lineal champ - You either beat the man who beat the man or unify a fragmented division.

Yes, Calzaghe has better opposition, a longer reign than Kessler - But Kessler has a shot and deserves it.

Personally I'd MUCH rather see Calzaghe unify than fight Jones Jr or any 175 lber...

Steve Coughlin
04-24-2006, 11:49 AM
EXCELLENT point in comparing Hopkins and Calzaghe, Gor. Much like Bernard, Calzaghe really didn’t have a deep division to choose from but Joe just kept winning & defending his title. When Hopkins beat Trinidad he got nothing but respect and got it immediately. And in all fairness, I think we can all agree that, while a fine prospect, Lacy wasn’t exactly the fighter Tito was when Hopkins beat him.

Looks to me like Joe needs another big win before people start to really believe in his ability. And fighting made-from-TV Peter Manfredo isn’t going to do it. Maybe Frank Warren needs to get a Super Middleweight tournament together, like the one that lead to Hopkins - Trinidad? And if Warren can’t put that together, why not call out Hopkins, Taylor or De La Hoya? I have no doubt that they’d sell every seat in Wembly arena for any of those fights.

I agree that titles are to be won in the ring and I applaud CBZ’s stance on who gets to be call the true Champion.