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iskigoe
05-12-2006, 11:56 AM
Who are the top 10 boxing historians of all time and how are they ranked

mike
05-12-2006, 12:45 PM
my opinon- ray arcel,lou stillman- many fighters who were born many years ago and lived through this century- lou gross,babe griffen - among experts- igoe may have been tops- lardener,runyon,flirescher,goldmans-charlie and herbert,cuoco,casey,silver,callis.some who write for this like gordon,etc.

GorDoom
05-12-2006, 04:04 PM
That's very kind of you to include me on that list, Mike. BUT ... I really don't consider myself a boxing historian. I'm more of an avid, well read & experienced aficionado.

I am very conversant with certain era's of boxing but take say the bare knuckle era or the Sullivan up to Marvin Hart era & my knowledge is sketchy.

As to historians my list would be made up of the current ones since they are the ones I'm most familiar with. In no particular order - & I know I'm probably going to forget to mention at least a couple of three guys - my list is: Hap Navarro, Hank Kaplan, Tracy Callis, Pete Ehrmann, Dan Cuoco & so many of the members of IBRO, my partner, Mike De Lisa, Mike Casey, Harry Otty, Adeyinka Makinde, Barry Deskins, Ted Spoon, Frank Baltazar, Sal Rappa, Enrique Encinosa, Monte Cox, Matt Tegen, Chuck Hasson, Chuck Johnston ... All of these guys are top drawer & since this is off the top of my head I know I'm forgetting a few more names.

So if I left YOU off the list, it was inadverdant.

GorDoom

mike
05-12-2006, 06:06 PM
who me- i just do my best- buttt- you have the experience of the gyms and the feel and reserach of a real expert. the fellows you mentioned above are DEFINATE EXPERTS- unfortunatly- many of the experts whom lived and knew so many of the century are gone- but all of them and all of you _i dont put myself there i know myself- are all willing to learn more of boxing and its history. thanks

Collins2000
05-12-2006, 06:27 PM
my opinon- ray arcel,lou stillman- many fighters who were born many years ago and lived through this century- lou gross,babe griffen - among experts- igoe may have been tops- lardener,runyon,flirescher,goldmans-charlie and herbert,cuoco,casey,silver,callis.some who write for this like gordon,etc.

Great list Mike, but you've left out Barry Deskins. :confused:

mike
05-13-2006, 12:33 AM
Great list Mike, but you've left out Barry Deskins. :confused:a slightly huge mistake there- i use him for referance.

apollack
05-16-2006, 01:58 AM
Gor, after you read my Sullivan book you'll add me to that list.

mike
05-16-2006, 03:02 AM
actually there are alot around- just not what there was 50 yeras ago- the top guys - there are some heavy duty innately wise withresarech experience and plently of it- like gorcon,delisa, kaplan,silver moredeskins etc .i hope you will be there soon.

GorDoom
05-18-2006, 03:15 PM
Adam:

You actually belong on that list already ... Your one of the guys I mentioned that I would be inadverdantly leaving off the list.

Mike:

The reason I'm no historian is that all the guys I've mentioned have spent literally 100''s of hours researching the minutea of boxing. Something I totally respect but I've never done it.

My expertise is mostly from the times I've lived in except for the 30's & 40's which I am knowledgeable about because my dad was a pro in that era & I grew up listening to his oral history of those times.

GorDoom

Adeyinka
05-19-2006, 09:45 PM
Wow!! A mighty thanks for GorDoom putting me in such august company. I'm sure that there are many great historians other than those we have read in print or who happen to congregate on the CBZ.

One guy who has fantastic knowledge of the past -English, American, Latin American, African, European fighters be they famous or obscure is Mr. Harold Alderman of Kent. He has aided many writers and editors on many, many boxing publications over the years.....

GorDoom
05-19-2006, 11:36 PM
Ade:

You are being FAR too modest. If you never wrote another word about boxing, the opus that is your bio on Dick Tiger stands as one of all-time GREAT biography's of a fighter.

I know the years & research you put into that book & I know it had to be a daunting task.

At any rate there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that you belong on that list with the other great historians I mentioned.

I'm curious about the Mr. Alderman you mentioned. Is he online? He sounds exactly like the kind of posters that I crave for this board.

warmest regards,

GorDoom

Adeyinka
05-20-2006, 03:25 AM
Many thanks GorDoom. Mr. Alderman is strictly 'Old School.' He has no time for new fangled developments such as the Internet.

I have referred several present and ex-CBZ staff to him over research issues like Harry Grebb in the UK, Sugar Ray Adigun (the Nigerian who fought in the Californian orbit in the late 60s annd 70s and other issues.)

I'm sure British historians like Harry Otty are very much aware of him.

Maybe I could start getting his views across the CBZ (historical pages) by proxy....

GorDoom
05-20-2006, 03:47 AM
Ade wrote:

"Maybe I could start getting his views across the CBZ (historical pages) by proxy...."

That is one helluva good idea, Ade! It would be an invaluable addition to the Encyclopedia/Historical section of the CBZ.

I gather from the way you write about him, that Mr. Alderman is an older gent. If so, the sooner you could see if this is a possibilty the better it would be ...

thanks,

GorDoom

jim glen
05-21-2006, 03:40 AM
Harold Alderman is great, he provided me with some excellent material for Gilroy includind ALL the British Ratings for the late 30s & 40s as well as some great reports and one very 'incriminating' report as to the "rules of play" so-to-speak and a 'annoyed' report if you will re: Gilroy's top World ranking over fellow Brits. 1939

Mr Alderman has a vast collection of material, well worth a phone call and he'll post copies of what ever he can. I hope he's still in good health, he must be well into his eighties!

KSmith9116
05-23-2006, 01:57 AM
I think we may right now have some of the best boxing historians of all time floating around. Here are a few of the guys who I think deserve mention for their meticulous approach to "getting the story right".

Tracy Callis
Mike Delisa
Luckett Davis
Matt Tengen
Barry Deskins
Chuck Hasson
Charles Johnson
Harold Alderman
Barry Hugman
Mike Silver
Hank Kaplan
Bob Carson
Harry Otty
The Late Tim Leone
Dan Cuoco---His leadership at IBRO--and what he has done with the journals has been top notch.
Peter Erhman
Clay Moyle--not sure if he considers himself a historian but he's one now in my book.

Goofy Pimple
05-23-2006, 05:12 AM
Hey Kev ..................... take a bow yourself. ;)

Mike DeLisa
05-23-2006, 06:58 PM
Add Johhny Bos, Jack Kincaid, and Kevin Smith (to his own list) and you have a pretty good list;

phlboxarc
05-24-2006, 07:41 AM
I am flattered that I was included with such top notch guys but any list of boxing historians would have to have right near the top, these two :
LAURENCE FIELDING-the heart and soul and backbone of the IBRO JOURNAL.
J.J. JOHNSTON-not only a great boxing historian but also the top Organized Crime expert around, along with being a highly regarded actor as well.

BDeskins
05-24-2006, 08:24 AM
I too am flattered to be named along with others that I admire so much.

Kevin and Mike’s lists are pretty solid, but a few others also need to be added to those already listed…Mike Attree, who Aussie and New Zealand research is fantastic and also Martin Cameron, from Argentina whose work on South American boxers has been a huge plus to Boxrec! Then there is also Paul Zabala, Jack Kincaid, the late Bob Soderman and I’m sure a few more that slip my mind.

Personally, I think the top historians of today are hands down the best of all-time. We not only have a lot more resources at our disposal as compared to the historians of yesteryear and as we all have found…a lot of the early historians made many, many mistakes in recording boxing history…none more so than Nat Fleischer, who though his service to boxing history is tremendous, he did not think twice about making things up where truth eluded him and his all-time record books were really nothing more than the “borrowing” of previous work done by guys like Richard Fox, John Romano and especially T.S. Andrews and all the people that they corresponded with and those who worked with them during they’re times.

A couple of other oldies, but goodies were Gilbert Odd and the fellow that started U.K.’s weekly Boxing News, I cannot recall his name right away, but he was a very important person in regards to boxing history.

If all of those guys had the same kinds of resources that we now have today, they would be like the best of today. I don’t know when microfilm became the standard, but before it did researchers had to swim through those giant volumes of bound newspapers and if you did not live near New York, DC or some other big city with a huge library, then you were pretty much stuck with researching your local newspapers and maybe a couple of large circulation city newspapers, whereas today we can get microfilm of pretty much any kind of newspaper in the world.

mike casey
05-24-2006, 08:45 AM
Barry, do you have any books by James 'Jimmy' Butler, Frank Butler's father?

He was an excellent writer and genuine fan who scoured London for emerging talent by attending illegal fights in all sorts of imaginative places.

Here was a man who knew his stuff - he was a personal friend of Jeffries, Langford, Owen Moran etc.

Butler saw some great fights, including the classic between Harry Lewis and Dixie Kid, and Ketchel-Thomas.

Butler disagreed with Fleischer on Johnson being number one, casting his vote for Langford.

BDeskins
05-24-2006, 11:52 AM
I don't have any of his books. I would like to read "Kings of the Ring,” but it’s a pretty high-priced book to buy. I’m sure I have read articles that he wrote, but I don’t know much about him...did he write a lot for Boxing News?

Also, I haven’t been able to find anything about the exact dates when the use of 6 oz gloves was eliminated in Great Britain, but I will keep an eye out for it. Someone here might be able to answer the question though.

mike casey
05-24-2006, 12:19 PM
OK, Barry, thanks.

I inherited Kings of the Ring from my father - a great book.

Jimmy Butler covered the British scene for The Ring right into the early/mid fifties. Might well have written for Boxing News - not sure on that one.

jim glen
05-26-2006, 02:14 PM
I have all the Ring mags from the late 30s to the early 50s and I don't recall seing much, if anything from James Butler or his son Frank at all in the Ring. I know they wrote for Big British news papers who covered Boxing exstensively in those days, I have a few reports of Frank Butler, who funny enough just dyed recently, 90 or some years old. John Sharpe, Farmer and Stanley and a few others found there way as contibutors to the Ring, namely Sharpe.

I'd like to get more of Butler's Newspaper columns as well as Norman Hurst's and a few others obviously - Jimmy Wilde had a column too for a number of years!

jim glen
05-26-2006, 03:14 PM
Obituaries



The Times January 07, 2006


Frank Butler
September 16, 1916 - January 2, 2006

Long-serving sports editor of the News of the World


FRANK BUTLER was one of the best-known names of Fleet Street sports writing and one of the longest-serving sports editors in national newspapers, holding that post with the News of the World for 22 years, until retiring in 1982.
While he took an interest in all sports, boxing was his passion. He was a founder member in 1954 of the Boxing Writers’ Club, later becoming chairman, and in 1984 was named an administrative steward of the British Boxing Board of Control. After retirement in 1997, he was elected honorary steward.



Butler followed the career of Muhammad Ali from the boxer’s early days as Cassius Clay, covering the fight in which he won him the world heavyweight title and shot into the headlines, when he beat Sonny Liston in a controversial bout in 1963. He wrote a biography in 1981 under the simple title Muhammad Ali.

Butler had written his first book, The Fight Game, in 1954 with his father James Butler, the boxing correspondent with the Daily Herald. Two years later, he wrote an instructional book with contributions from English fighters, Success at Boxing. He also produced A History of Boxing in Britain (1972) and The Good, the Bad and the Ugly: The Story of Boxing (1986).

He edited for many years the News of the World Football Annual, a pocket-sized compendium which still sells strongly.

Butler always had an eye for a promising writer. When Richie Benaud led Australia to Ashes victory in England in 1961, Butler invited him to contribute to the paper, and he has done so since, despite many efforts to lure him away.

Frank Butler was born in 1916 and an early love of boxing developed at his southeast London Roman Catholic school, where the priests would spar with interested youngsters.

His father, then the boxing writer for The Daily Express, introduced the 16-year-old to a humble job at the paper: compiling greyhound racing results. He graduated to football results, and then match reports.

Encouraged by the famous Express Editor, Arthur Christiansen, Butler was appointed sports editor at the Sunday Express at the age of 24 in 1941 — the youngest to hold that position — and doubled as chief sports writer of The Daily Express.

Butler had been posted by the Express early in the Second World War to “Hellfire Corner”, the Dover region shelled and bombed by the Germans, to report from the area and liaise with war correspondents.

The News of the World hired Butler in 1949 as a sports columnist, his new salary termed “the highest transfer fee in Fleet Street”. He became sports editor in 1960, and was appointed OBE in 1981.

He is survived by three sons and a daughter.




Frank Butler, sports writer, was born on September 16, 1916. He died on January 2, 2006, aged 89.

Goofy Pimple
05-26-2006, 05:21 PM
I have all the Ring mags from the late 30s to the early 50s and I don't recall seing much, if anything from James Butler or his son Frank at all in the Ring.

The Butler's articles appeared in the UK versions of The Ring. They also featured a fair bit on the UK amatuer scene as well.

Dan1213
05-26-2006, 07:40 PM
Ade:

You are being FAR too modest. If you never wrote another word about boxing, the opus that is your bio on Dick Tiger stands as one of all-time GREAT biography's of a fighter.

I know the years & research you put into that book & I know it had to be a daunting task.

At any rate there is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that you belong on that list with the other great historians I mentioned.

I'm curious about the Mr. Alderman you mentioned. Is he online? He sounds exactly like the kind of posters that I crave for this board.

warmest regards,

GorDoom

Bucket. Harold is a member of IBRO and unfortunatly is not on line. I usually contact him through correspondence or email via Barry Hugman (another member of IBRO) and another outsatnding boxing historian.

Dan1213
05-26-2006, 07:45 PM
I think we may right now have some of the best boxing historians of all time floating around. Here are a few of the guys who I think deserve mention for their meticulous approach to "getting the story right".

Tracy Callis
Mike Delisa
Luckett Davis
Matt Tengen
Barry Deskins
Chuck Hasson
Charles Johnson
Harold Alderman
Barry Hugman
Mike Silver
Hank Kaplan
Bob Carson
Harry Otty
The Late Tim Leone
Dan Cuoco---His leadership at IBRO--and what he has done with the journals has been top notch.
Peter Erhman
Clay Moyle--not sure if he considers himself a historian but he's one now in my book.

Kevin, thanks! Tracy Callis, Mike Delisa, Luckett Davis, Matt Tegen, Barry Deskins, Chuck Hasson, Charles Johnson, Harold Alderman, Barry Hugman,
Mike Silver, Hank Kaplan, Bob Carson, Harry Otty and Clay Moyle are all members of IBRO.

BDeskins
05-27-2006, 03:34 AM
Speaking of IBRO---In my opinion joining the IBRO is the single best thing that a "serious" fan of boxing history can do! Dan is a great director and the membership is helpful in ways that a serious researcher could not get anywhere else!

Collins2000
05-27-2006, 06:30 PM
Who are the top 10 boxing historians of all time and how are they ranked

Difficult task, but I'll have a go:

1. Barry Deskins

D
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i
g
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2-10. The rest of them

Olympic Auditorium
05-28-2006, 11:33 AM
When talking about history of the Olympic Auditorium one name comes to mind Mr.Olympic himself Luis Magana

dongee
05-28-2006, 03:18 PM
When talking about history of the Olympic Auditorium one name comes to mind Mr.Olympic himself Luis Magana

You are so right!

I know that Eaton, LeBelle and Babe McCoy all knew how valuable an ally they had in Luisito,
which was my dad's favorite word when addressing the incomparable Magana. I had known him for most of my adult life-----even joined forces with him in a short-lived boxing P.R firm which we called "Mag-na Enterprises"---using the first two letters of our respective surnames.
That was back in the early 1950s. And we were both founding members of the Hispanic Press Club at that time. Additionally, we were both regular contributors to the sports pages of "La Opinion", the west's most popular Mexican-owned newspaper.

His "Sports Page of the Air", a Spanish language radio show dealing with nothing but boxing matters was the first of its kind in the western U.S.A. It emanated from a second-story studio on Second Street just west of Spring, in downtown L.A. Luis and I also repped two different Mexico City boxing magazines as California Correspondents in the 1950s, although he put in a much longer stint.

We shared a few thoughts for the last time when he paid us a visit in San Diego, about 12 years ago. At the time we still agreed on proclaiming Manuel Ortiz as "the greatest Mexican fighter of all time", even though he had seen all of the great ones that came after 1960, when I walked away from the boxing world.

hap navarro

SigniferSanctusMichael
06-14-2006, 04:24 PM
BDeskins,

You can find cheap copies of Kings of the Ring at www.abebooks.com - a great second-hand book service.

BDeskins
06-15-2006, 03:04 AM
I've bought a few books using abebooks and I agree, it is a really good service. Clay Moyle has some really good bargains also.

http://hometown.aol.com/cmoyle/myhomepage/index.html

GorDoom
07-08-2006, 02:14 PM
When I listed historians off the top of my head I mentioned that I would inadverdantly leave someone off my list. Well I did & my failing to remember Ron Lipton was truly egregious.

There are very few historians, if any, that are more qualified than Ron. Man, the old synapses sure don't snap like they used to! Not mentioning Ron was really wrong headed & frankly dumb on my part.

Mea Culpa, Ronnie ...

GorDoom

Ron Lipton
07-08-2006, 02:29 PM
Thank you kindly Bucket.