View Full Version : Ron Lipton: Q & A Thread
Juan C Ayllon
06-09-2005, 02:35 PM
I thought I'd start this string on Ron Lipton where questions and answers regarding Ron Lipton, his training methods and so forth could be discussed.
Juan C. Ayllon
Juan C Ayllon
06-09-2005, 02:48 PM
By the way, a number of months back, I received a video from Ron Lipton. It's clear from the footage, as well as the praise of his contemporaries, that Ron really knows his stuff when it comes to boxing, training, punching and refereeing. Amazing stuff!
This man has truly dedicated himself to his craft and the results are truly amazing.
It is an honor and privilege to know Ron as my friend.
Juan C. Ayllon
Juan C Ayllon
06-09-2005, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Q&A With Former Referee Ron Lipton: “Logic Doesn’t Exist Anymore!”
Feb 22, 2004
Ron Lipton is a man with an axe to grind. Lipton, a former homeless person, turned boxer, turned cop, turned referee, and current boxing instructor at Marist College in Poughkeepsie, New York, feels that he has been ostracized from the sport of boxing, and as such has not refereed in quite some time. Add to that the story of his friendship with Rubin “Hurricane” Carter, and you’ve got yourself one hell of a life story. If you didn’t know who Ron Lipton was before now, you will certainly know who he is after reading what he has to say.
DB: Tell us how you met Rubin “Hurricane” Carter.
I had been homeless for a little while, and my parents had divorced. I was staying at a boxing gym in Newark. I saw a picture of Carter on the wall, and he had a picture of a black panther on his robe. On all my robes and trunks, I had a picture of a black leopard and it had always been a good luck sign for me. I said, Wow, this guy likes panthers too. I asked my trainer, who knew Carter, about him and he said ‘that’s one guy you don’t wanna meet, he is a very hateful guy.’ I said that doesn’t bother me.
I had seen a couple of his fights and our styles were similar. I was very muscular like him, but a bit lighter than Carter. I weighed about 147 and he weighed about 157. I felt that I could deal with him because I was dealing with some of the heavier fighters, pros, in the gym. I said set up a meeting, and my trainer George Branch set up the meeting. I walked up to Carter and I said ‘I understand you’re looking for another white boy to beat up. How about giving me a chance?’ He just busted up laughing. Everyone in the gym couldn’t believe it, they thought he was going to sucker punch me. He was laughing, and it busted me up too. We just hit it off and I went up to his training camp and that’s how we met. I was a sparring partner for most of his fights.
DB: Talk about your involvement in setting Carter free from prison and the effect your role had on your personal life.
It was devastating because I had become a police officer in Essex County, New Jersey in Verona. I would visit him in prison, and I had been a very active, competitive shooter. Throughout my police career I was a police Firearm Instructor. I was very successful in combat shooting, and I would go to the various dinners they would hold for the competitive shooters. At one of them, some of the guys from Paterson, New Jersey bragged about how they had framed him. That’s how it started. I knew from speaking to Rubin and from I saw with my own eyes how he was treated over there, it wasn’t too good. At the time there was a survey done by a commission appointed by the Governor which said the Paterson Police Department was the most racist in the United States. Not in New Jersey, but in the United States. So there was validity to it. I reported it and it fell on deaf ears. I later became a Criminal Investigator with the Hudson County Prosecutor’s Office, which was the number one crime county. I stayed there for five years, I was the S.W.A.T. Team Commander, I worked on the Narcotic Strike Force and I worked in the Special Investigations Unit. Carter had made an application for a retrial, circa 1976, and the Paterson prosecutor’s office came down and some of the key players made some very deleterious comments about how he was framed and how they would keep him there no matter what, that they knew their witnesses were lying.
I immediately went to my chief and the prosecutor and I told him as a detective what I heard and I wanted to expose this. I went into the Daily News and there was a very brave reporter by the name of David Hardy who did an article in January 1974 when I got Muhammad Ali to help me. It went into the paper as ‘white detective in Hudson County prosecutor’s office says Carter was framed.’ That started the ball rolling, got him a lot of help and attention. The backlash from the case was horrific because careers were built on his conviction. The then Governor Brendon Byrne had been an assistant prosecutor in Essex County and had prosecuted Bellone and Bradley the two thieves who had robbed the dead bodies in the bar and who had been uncovered as the Motel Bandits. Byrne got them leniency and some people claim that leniency was given for the testimony against Carter to inculpate him as the shooter.
Here I’m writing the Governor not knowing that he was involved in getting leniency for the very people who put Carter in jail. The resurrection of the Carter case and throwing it into the light of public scrutiny was going to hurt a lot of careers. I lost my job, I lost my home because I couldn’t make the payments. I applied to many other prosecutor’s offices who would not accept my employment even though I had an exemplary record.
Finally, I had a cross burned on my lawn and got into an embroilment with about thirty guys who were friends and relatives of the state police. So it was a long, horrible saga. Those things never die, and only someone that’s involved in law enforcement from the inside would know how seriously people take these things and how you can be prevented from working if you break the blue wall of silence. The scars are still there.
DB: What has your relationship been with Carter for the past few years?
He always acknowledged what I did for him. He even admitted on a television show that he probably wouldn’t be sitting there if it weren’t for Ron Lipton. There was an incident in 1997 where three men who had hunted me down, including the ex-boyfriend of the girl I was seeing. They attacked me, and I hit one of them with a right hand. I was in the gym all the time, and I have an ability to punch very hard and fast. I’ve been doing it since I was twelve, and I never miss a day punching the bag. I hit this guy with a right hand and it hurt him really bad. I couldn’t walk away, they grabbed me, I didn’t know who they were. So I hit the guy a right hand and it crushed his face. His friend was the police officer who came on the scene and they tacked on a whole bunch of charges. Those charges were dismissed all except that one misdemeanor assault. I called Carter and asked him to write a letter for me. I guess I caught him when he wasn’t feeling too good and he said ‘I’ll have to think about it.’ Here I had contacted the Governor for him and believed him on a triple murder case and I throw one punch against three guys and the guy says ‘I gotta think about it.’ I said, ‘I never want to speak to you as long as I live.’ I got a hold of Joe Frazier, and he wrote a letter to the judge instead. But what Carter did just hurt my feelings. I was also supposed to do the choreography for the movie Hurricane, and they wanted to make Rubin’s fight with Joey Giardello look like a racial robbery. I was at the fight, and I know Joey Giardello, and a lot of people think that Giardello outpointed Rubin fair and square. I didn’t want to do it, they wanted me to make Giardello look like a bum. I needed the money, but I told them I didn’t want to do it like that. I told them I would make it as historically accurate as possible, but they wanted me to do it their way. So I lost that job, and then Giardello sued them. They subpoenaed me, and I testified for Giardello, and he eventually won the case.
DB: As a former amateur boxer yourself, what were some of the highlights of your career?
I had about 145 fights, but a lot were exhibitions. The actual number of AAU fights that I had was 42, and I won 39 of those, 38 by knockout. I had 23 knockouts in the first round, two of which were back to back 16 second knockouts. I was a lightweight novice champ, and 147 open champion twice. I fought a couple of guys Roberto Duran fought, another that Bob Foster fought. I used to fight for the guy who owned G & S Sporting Goods, which the fighters in the old fights used to wear on their trunks. I fought all of the New York champs, New Jersey champs, Pennsylvania champs.
DB: Why didn’t you ever turn professional?
I had gone on to the police department in Verona, and there was almost no time to train. During that time, though, if I got a call from Dick Tiger or Muhammad Ali, I was up at their camp as a sparring partner, for the Earnie Shavers fight. It was good money on the side.
DB: Who are some of the best fighters you’ve sparred with?
Joe Frazier, Muhammad Ali, Dick Tiger, Carter, Carlos Ortiz. Ortiz was devastating in his time, and he used me for the rematch against Flash Elorde and his left hook was amazing to the body. Carter had fast hands, he could paralyze you with a punch. Tiger could crush your skull. He looked like about 175 when he came to camp, and trimmed down to 160 and had a heavy skeletal frame. Carter was a natural 158 pounder.
DB: What got you into law enforcement?
I felt that it was the most useful thing I could do at the time. I had admired police officers and I had a young wife and daughter. I needed work and it was the best thing I could do at the time.
DB: Who are your favorite fighters of all time and why?
Bob Satterfield. He was the type of guy who would throw caution to the wind and just go out and bomb away. I loved Joe Louis for his dignity and consistency of excellence. I admired Dick Tiger for his conduct in and out of the ring, his sportsmanship and decency, his kindness as a human being and his durability. Carter I admired for his punching power and his dedication to physical fitness. I enjoyed the stories of guys who could take you out with one punch, they weren’t the best fighters, but they could take you out with one punch. Rocky Marciano and Carmen Basilio, I admired their tenacity.
DB: How did you become a referee?
I had been in boxing for a long time, and applied to the New York State Athletic Commission and started out reffing fights.
DB: What is the process that a referee must go through to graduate from the local club fight level to the big time fights that involve fighters like De La Hoya, Tyson and Roy Jones?
That’s one of the most horrific things wrong with boxing today. The guys they are putting in there have no real underpinnings. You have to break away from the type of commissioner that’s giving the fights like that to his friends, or the sons of people that make great political contributions to the Governor’s Office. You have to have some real underpinnings, you can’t just say ‘hey, I boxed in the service’ or say ‘I had five or six fights in the sub novice division’ and then become a referee in a championship fight.
You see guys in there with pot bellies who are slow, and they’ve never put on a pair of gloves in their life. I’m not saying that all fighters make good referees, but it’s just crazy. It’s like taking a brain surgery course on a matchbook cover. As long as you’re friends with them, they put you in. Logic doesn’t exist anymore. You got a guy in charge of the NYSAC right now who is a promoter. How can he be the chairman if he’s a promoter? You can’t, it’s a conflict of interest.
DB: What are some of the best fights you have officiated and why?
Prince Charles Williams and Merqui Sosa, which was a double TKO, there was hardly a clinch in the fight. I loved the Morrison-Ruddock fight. Holyfield-Mercer, where Holyfield knocked Mercer down for the first time in Mercer’s career. The first fight between Steve Collins and Chris Eubank, the atmosphere was the most intense you can imagine, even more intense than Ali-Frazier.
DB: Speaking of Williams-Sosa, that was a fight where both fighters were ruled unable to continue in a rare “double knockout,” which was officially ruled a technical draw. What are your recollections of that fight?
They were old school pros. I remember when I brought them to the center of the ring, Sosa said to Williams in Spanish, “Aqui jungle.” Aqui means “here,” and he was saying “here, it’s going to be a jungle right now.” I knew it was going to be a war. The shots to the body and head were hellacious, just incredible.
DB: Do you have any “behind the scenes” stories from fights you’ve worked that you would like to share?
In Collins-Eubank, the promoter was the manager of both fighters. On the way to the ring, he told me ‘watch out for Collins, he’s a dirty fighter. Watch out for the use of his head.’ Can you imagine a promoter telling the referee that about his own fighter? Eubank knocked Collins down and stood over Collins, and I had to pull Eubank’s off him. If he had gone to the corner, he might have had an extra second to finish, but Collins got up and went on to win the fight. As for Morrison-Ruddock, I went into the dressing room of Razor Ruddock. The room was flooded and he was up to his ankles in ice cold water. He said, ‘hey ref, do you think it’s right that I get a room like this?
What kind of s**t is this?’ I said, ‘I got nothing to do with that, but I do think you need a proper room to get ready in.’ He was a gentleman though, and both of them, Morrison and Ruddock had the power to put someone in serious jeopardy. The left hook that Morrison turned over, a short hook, was beautiful. When Ruddock went down, I saw Ruddock’s legs go limp and he looked like he was concussed. I looked into his eyes and one was constricted and one looked dilated. I remember that I just couldn’t believe he got up.
DB: Can you tell us why you aren't an active referee anymore?
Well, let's just say that I was aware of some illegal activity that was going on, and I refused to play ball with certain people. So my license was pulled.
DB: What do you feel should be done to clean up the sport of boxing?
One, have the Ring Magazine champion recognized, and none of the alphabet groups. Two, take a look at the real boxing background of the referees. If they’ve refereed fifty title fights, it doesn’t mean s**t to me. I want to know how they got those fifty title fights, and what really are their underpinnings in boxing. Put some people in there who know what they are doing. Clean house of the dynasty of these horrible referees and their political connections, and get rid of them. Same thing with the judges, and get people in the athletic commissions who are not tied to the promoters. Get people in there who have a heart and won’t use their good friends.
DB: Is there anything you would like to add in closing?
I train hard, and I’m always practicing boxing. I just wish someone would give me my license back because I haven’t done anything wrong. I have a better record as a referee than most of them. I just think it is one of the worst injustices that has ever been done to me and I don’t think I deserve it. <hr></blockquote>
06-09-2005, 05:33 PM
If he would just get in some kind of shape physically!
06-09-2005, 05:40 PM
I heard that red glint in his eye isn't actually flashback from the camera! Holy intensity Batman!
06-10-2005, 06:51 PM
For what's it's worth, I've managed to salvage the first three pages of the pre ezboard wipeout thread about Ron Lipton, plus one other:
I've spent a good three hours trying to squeeze more out of Google's caches, but I think this is all I'm going to get.
06-10-2005, 07:39 PM
well done and much thanks for the effort.
06-11-2005, 03:20 AM
Ron---When did you start lifting weights...what age?
06-11-2005, 06:00 AM
I started training with hand held springs- cables, chinups, dips and pushups at 12. When I took Judo lessons there was a boy named Billy Billiard whose father owned the (Golden Plated) Billiard weight company in my class in NY. I dabbled in it a bit when I was a kid but I was too sick to benefit from it.
I only started getting better at about 13-14 or so and then started training harder then, if I can remember anymore. Never stayed with weights as much as the Jack LaLane type of stuff, climbing rope a lot in gym class, and as I said a variety of chinups, pushups on my knuckles etc.
Juan C Ayllon
06-11-2005, 10:42 AM
You look terrific for any age man, period.
Your approach to staying active and climbing ropes specifically reminds me of a wrestling coach at the high school I teach at. He's got to be in his late 50's or, perhaps in his 60's, based on his white hair and his facial aging. However, his lithe and muscular build has got to be the envy of most men of any age.
When I asked him what his secret was, he said something like you did a while back: "Stay active!"
What's the status of your lawsuit regarding refereeing?
Are you doing okay? I know you mentioned not working and being broke.
06-11-2005, 11:42 AM
thank you Juan,
very rough right now taking care of my family who is pretty sick, but we struggle like everyone else day to day.
I am heartbroken about not being given any chance to referee. In NY MIke DeLisa is waiting with me for a chance to go to court.
In NJ I called Larry Hazzard's Office every week for two months since April asking for a referee application. His secretary Kathy said it was mailed each time I call, but the postmaster and delivery man here, say it never came and was never mailed.
I wrote the Atty Gen in NJ to tell them, and ask for their help. They wrote back and said there is nothing they can do, that they use the best referees in NJ, they are very proud of them, and they can deny anyone a license without giving them a hearing, that Hazzard is suing their Attorney General Peter Harvey and in the meantime, they never heard of or care about any scandals because all their people are the best ad infinitum.
They ignored the Eugene Williams scandal, the Steve Smoger scandal as a judge (he is still licensed) how Eddie Cotton as a prison referee got the Tyson V Lewis fight through Hazzard pushing Cotton for it in Tennessee, and the endless films of the fights handled by out of shape, old or negligent officials.
Every mistake is overlooked, no one cares, and the fights done by Neuman in MSG and all the mistakes in the Ruiz fight mean nothing to them. William Brown who wrote me, obviously doesn't know anything about boxing and Hazzard runs them.
They know I have proof of me being told as early as 1997 they weren't going to use me anymore in NJ because the NY guys didn't want me anymore because they were making deals and got caught. Russo fired for the Gamache fisasco later, and paid trips to Poland, faking weigh ins, and much worse.
NJ does whatever NY wants but this guy who wrote me is a politician and they are protecting the other guy in NJ Gerald Gormley whose brother is a Senator I believe and he got caught accepting complimentary tickets to fights etc they wrote about in the newspaper.
They want no one there but their friends, and are not an equal opportunity employer. They blackball people and it will be addressed in a lawsuit with films of the fights to be used in comparison as to who they use and who they deny.
The most interesting thing is the use of Smoger who the NJ Judicial Conduct Commission said, "Does not have the integrity to be a Judge in NJ anymore."
Him they license, me they will not mail an application to.
I have them on tape promising me, never mailing it, and now I'm told they can deny it and never give you a hearing.
It is like a bunch of Nazis.
Juan C Ayllon
06-13-2005, 12:02 AM
Here are some pics Ron sent me to put up on another string in Fantasy Fights:
From left to right: Emile Griffith, Ruben "Hurricane" Carter, and Ron Lipton
Left to right: Joes Napoles, Ron and Emile
Jose Napoles (left) and Emile Griffith
Ron Lipton (left) and Marvelous Marvin Hagler
06-13-2005, 12:09 AM
You'vew got character, heart, and above all persistance, and I know you can weather this storm.
I agree, it's such a load of bullshit that these people can deny someone a license without even giving them a hearing to prove their case. This is one of the many, many things that can make a guy sick of the sport. People like you, who can give the sport a shot of what it desperately needs- credibility and integrity, are locked out while insiders with the boxing IQs of retards have their hands in everything.
Boxing needs to undergo a metamorphosis, a revolution from the ground up. With the current guys in power, it's never going to get better.
But I am pulling for you every step of the way, and I hope to see you on TV soon. I know I speak for the whole of this forum when I request that you keep me informed of how everything is going, both with the refereeing license and life in general.
06-13-2005, 12:31 AM
Thank you so much, Kid Achilles, may you be as invulnerable to harm as the warrior Achilles save for the one spot on his heel.
Your supportive and thoughtful comments give me hope.
The Commissions are run so unfairly, and I have been dealt such a vicious and unfair treatment, setting such a bizzare precedent that it can only be addressed in two kinds of cases. One an article 78 Petition which can go either way with the bullshit they could put forth.
Two a complete and total expose in a 1983 Federal Civil rights suit V NJ and NY Commissions seperately with everything I know coming in, and it will survive any lawyers summary judgment motion.
If I were them, to use the expression bring it on, will be the worst thing they can do. Unless they fix the Judge which is very hard to contemplate, their position is indefensible in a jury trial.
The AG's office in both states knows NOTHING about boxing, and their bland assertions of official rectitude will never fly before a jury which is what I will ask for.
The punitive and compensatory damages for a State Agency not only refusing to answer my mail for 8 years, but the record of films of the ring deaths, mistakes, ridiculous performances, are a matter of record.
The refusal to renew my license prior to any false charges which were dealt with succesfully are a matter of record. When Mike DeLisa is done representing me on this Petition I will see what happens.
NY used Mercante Jr after he contributed greatly to the death of a fighter. Nothing is worse than his history up to that point. Smoger was used in the Garden often as a NJ referee while he was denied a license in both states after being kicked off the bench as a local judge.
I am force to show the newspaper articles, films, tapes, and background of the people who are involved and place it all in the press and before a jury.
All they had to do was license me, be fair, and give me my share of fights like anyone else. Too pompous, too stupid, too crooked and they will be sued individually.
Any of their lawyers who ignore what they did and advocate illegally for them I will go to the ethics committe on. Enough is enough.
06-13-2005, 12:07 PM
You guys beat me to the punch about the kid in the Shannon Briggs fight. That fight was over, I cant' beleive that ref let the corner run the show and take over the fight like that. It seems to me-and I know officiating is an extrememly difficult job as these guys are under a microscope for all the world to see-these referees should be more enforcive about adherence to the rules.
Juan C Ayllon
06-19-2005, 07:58 PM
I thought you might find this new guy rather interesting, in terms of what he has to say about training and so forth:
<a href="http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/news/archives/00001039.htm" target="_new">Aaron Williams Piece</a>
Aaron Williams was an amateur standout and looks like he might have the goods as a pro at cruiser and, later, at pro.
Gues we'll see!
06-19-2005, 08:02 PM
I can always rely on you for the most interesting things in boxing.
I will check it out. I can't wait one day to go to one of those famous parties of yours.
Juan C Ayllon
06-19-2005, 08:30 PM
I would be honored to have you at one of my parties.
Hope you have a good evening,
07-05-2005, 01:08 PM
Here is the thread once again that rightleft suggested I put up to be marooned to for my comments.
For Kiki and rightleft who like to investigate me here you are and here I am.
Now rightleft, lets see your background, picture and who you really are. Don't be afraid!
07-05-2005, 07:46 PM
You know Ron, Ironbar decided to finally do some reading up on your past and present (not that I needed reassurances) and this ole' cynic was very impressed... I know you don't need any pats on the back from a stranger, but all that malicious shit written on the Langford-Carter thread made me feel terrible... I deliberately stayed out of that thread because you more than adequately took care of yourself... but still... had to say a few words of support here...
Anyways, enough of the touchy-feely -- keep the great posts coming...
Now, perhaps a simple solution to some of this antagonism... completed profiles for all members? May as well complete mine first... less easy to throw stones when we can all see one another's houses...
07-05-2005, 08:14 PM
I'm not investiging you ,i could care less what your boxing past is ,but you know you keep going on this pictures thing , pictures don't prove anything
07-05-2005, 08:32 PM
Yeah Frank they do, they really do.
They show along with articles that I did what I said, and work very hard to stay in shape, so that when I tell a fighter how to get into fighting trim to compete with today's athletes, he knows his coach knows what he is talking about because he walks the walk.
At 59 it ain't easy and I have been doing it for years.
I don't want to appear as a pot bellied trainer, who just got old and knows but one way to teach with no knowledge of more advanced methods. I had a lot of fights Frank and I learned from them all.
The pictures and fight articles which are also on the web give one's claims validity so that when someone says I doubt you, then you show them.
You did say you look up some stuff and could not find it.
Now you can't say that anymore because I told you where to look.
Lets stay friends as I enjoy your knowledge and opinions on some of the old fights, but respect is a two way street.
07-05-2005, 08:49 PM
I repect your opinions , but if you would say i fought this guy and that guy even if they were not pro fights that would say more then pictures, i can not be impress with pictures
07-05-2005, 09:00 PM
Mr. Baltazar not to flame in here as I have asked two of my friends former West Coast Feature Writer for Boxing Illustrated Bill O'Neill and former Lightweight King Mando Ramos about you and they had some nice things to say about you: but if I may ask: what is your boxing background, sir?
07-05-2005, 09:44 PM
I been seeing fights since i was 9 years old i'm now 70 i boxed in the amateurs i had 17 fights won some lost some , boxed in the G.G ,in 1973-74 i took the G.G team to the national's i was the head coach, work the corner of one of Michael Nunn's fight, an i work some of Mando Muniz's fights ,i was the amateur matchmaker at the Olympic Aud. in L.A ,i managed some fighter here in L.A ,i also managed my 3 sons that fought pro,
Frankie had 44 pro fights, Tony 46, Bobby had 6
o.k Karl how about you ?
07-05-2005, 10:02 PM
thanks for that.
I had 98 amateur fights-winning 75.
You can ask Mando about my credentials.
I'm 44; and last year I held my own with Juan Diaz and told him to let rip with all he had.
Thanks for the reply
07-05-2005, 10:06 PM
Did you go to the nat's and did you win any nat. titles? Karl amateur boxing is nothing like the pro's
07-05-2005, 10:14 PM
Yes; I went to the Nationals a couple of times.
First time was in Biloxi 1978, and then in 1984 when I was the USAF Champion.
I also sparred with Andy Ganigan and Donald Curry.
07-05-2005, 10:57 PM
I don't mean to be mean to you, but I don't really care what you are or aren't imprerssed with.
Most guys who are out of shape aren't impressed with anything. I listed the fighters maybe 10 times for you, is your memory ok amigo?
NJ and NY boxing back in the mid 60's was when I competed
One last time for you Frank:
Besides the champs and contendes I was with, Ortiz, Laguna,
Tiger, Griffith, Ali, Frazier, Mims, Jose Monon Gonzalez, Dupree,
Lloyd Marshall, Freddie Martinovich, and others, I competed and fought 5 time NJ Champ Richie Gonazlez, Wesley Phipps,
Billy Beam, Steven Quinn, Felix Ortega, NY GG Champ Juan Ruiz and all the rest.
Who did you fight Frank, and do you have a picture of you in your prime? Not that I would be impressed by a picture.
I do admire your son Tony though.
Adios, Amigo mio.
07-05-2005, 10:59 PM
I do sincerely admire your background Frank and at 70 I wish you nothing but respect.
Juan C Ayllon
07-06-2005, 02:55 AM
<img border=0 src="http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/JuanCAyllon/EmileSidMartin.jpg" />
Sid Martin (rear) and Emile Griffith
Here is a beautiful photo of beloved trainer, Sid Martin, and boxing all-time great, Emile Griffith.
Clearly, these two were cherished friends of Ron's.
Juan C. Ayllon
07-06-2005, 03:04 PM
"Goofy Pimple???", uh ok.
Nah, that's just old venerable Sid Martin, the father figure great cornerman of Emile Griffith, who was a Luis Sarria, Jack Blackburn and Charley Goldman rolled into one.
He was never given the credit he deserved for Emile's success. Clancy a great boxing man, only started out teaching physical education in the lower grades in NYC.
The other guy in the corner Howie Albert was a hat designer who knew nothing about boxing but sent Griffith to Clancy who did a great job with Emile who was a star pupil.
Sid Martin did everything they asked him but never got the credit because behind the scenes he was the real boxing expert and worked the corners of so many great fighters in NY. He was also in my corner for many of my fights and I felt honored to have him.
I showed up one night in St Augustine's Church in Greenich Village for a Tournament of Champions kind of night where the NY champs fought the NJ champs and finalists etc. They sold it out and my conrerman from NJ never showed up, which happened to me in Newark also in a tv fight.
Well Sid worked my corner as he knew me from the gym with Emile. He had a voice deeper than Barry White and he would get right to the point with succint advise which was worth diamonds to me.
I fought a guy named Felix Ortega who was built and looked like Tony Tiger Martinez. Sid, whispered a whole bunch of advice in my ear which I was trying to adhere to in my brain as he rubbed my shoulders before they called us to the center of the ring as he had seen this guy fight many times before.
The bell rang and Ortega rushed out of his corner to pin me in mine like Honeyghan did to that guy in England.
He ran into one of my hardest ever short right hands which landed exactly on his breast bone and another right hand left hook to the head. It was over in 6 seconds, plus the count. (See article on my other web site Untold Story)
Sid, put my robe on and when the commotion died down and we were alone, he had not spoken one word. I was waiting for some kind of compliment. All he said was,
"You took a chance, you stayed still, had your head up too high, and didn't move like I told you, you were lucky tonight and you have to shorten up that hook, you understand son?"
I simply said, "Yes sir," I'll see you Monday in the gym.
He was the greatest and a man of great dignity.
07-06-2005, 07:59 PM
Giffith looks a lot bigger and stronger than I thought he would. Huge shoulders. Maybe it's because of the relatively low knockout ratio, but I always expected him to be a smaller more modestly built guy.
07-06-2005, 09:06 PM
emille was sculpted out of marble.
07-06-2005, 09:52 PM
Kid and Jyoung,
he was indeed sculptured out of marble.
In the wonderful book by Adeyinka Makinde Dick Tiger, The Life and Times of a Boxing Immortal, there are anecdotes about just that. Must reading!
Emile was so strong with so little body fat. Men like that are very strong but succeptable to various injuries if not warmed up properly. It would be analagous to bodybuilders on stage in the Mr. Olympia absolutelyl freezing in normal temperatures there is so little intercelluar body fat, subcataneous fat.
That is why a Luis Sarria, and Sid Martin are so valuable to massage a really developed fighter into a state of supple readiness to tap into deep fiber and attack in that ring without strain.
07-07-2005, 01:24 AM
do you know how emile stayed so well in shape? I know it was diet and excercise, but do you have any specifics? did he use a lot of weight training? I would say emile and harold johnson come to mind when I think of best sculpted bodies of boxers thru the years.
07-07-2005, 02:36 AM
I can assure you Emile never lifted a weight in his life.
I have 3 video tapes of an interview I did with him, that I feel surpasses any other done at that time, 1991. It was my idea to do it and man did I ask him some questions on that 3 hour session.
He told me he used to run all the time in the Virgin Islands on the beach much like Ali told me he used to run everywhere rather than ride. Both men had great legs.
Griff had great heridity potential and just played a lot of sports. I played him many sets of tennis and at one time I was pretty good, two very fast first serves always in. He was extremely good, blazing athlete, but no weights.
He boxed and trained more than anyone in that gym.
Carter trained the most non stop I have ever seen though.
An animal of power and strength and Jack LaLane type feats.
16 mile Runs, 1000 pushups, 1000 situps, endless sparring.
Griffith loved to exercise and was a workhorse in the gym.
07-07-2005, 06:14 AM
thank you ron
07-09-2005, 06:46 PM
Thanks for that, Mr. Baltazar.
I agree with you that there is a big difference between the amateurs and pros, sir.
There is also a big difference between someone having 17 amateur fights as opposed to someone having 98 amateur fights.
Juan C Ayllon
07-10-2005, 05:44 AM
Here's an article I posted up on Friday which interviews Chicago boxing promoter, Bobby Hitz. In it, he speaks a lot about respect, honor, and experience, as well as some interesting tidbits from the Kronk Gym.
Check it out:
<a href="http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/news/archives/00001069.htm" target="_new">Bobby Hitz Interview</a>
07-10-2005, 10:30 PM
I liked that, Juan.
Thanks for that about Foreman; I saw that particular fight-didn't know it was the same fellow.
Only one thing: you said that Ernie Terrell was a Heavyweight "Contender".
Ernie actually won the WBA version of the title by beating Eddie Machen after Ali was stripped by that organization.
We all know Ali cleaned him up and ruined him as a fighter in their fight in the Astrodome-but he was a title claimant and goes down in the record books as being so. Not an easy feat by any means.
Juan C Ayllon
07-11-2005, 12:09 AM
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Guess I should have looked on www.boxrec.com to see if I'd missed something like that.
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Hope you're having a good weekend,
07-11-2005, 02:29 PM
Juan, that not me doing the refereeing
07-11-2005, 02:30 PM
Juan, Georgino was not my sons manager, i was , he was Danny Red Lopez manager
Juan C Ayllon
07-11-2005, 05:20 PM
Juan C Ayllon
07-11-2005, 05:26 PM
Frankie and Tony Baltazar with their manager, Benny Georgino Danny Lopez
Juan C Ayllon
07-11-2005, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the corrections. In reading the headings you sent with the pics, that's how it sounded.
By the way, please, feel free to post your own pics in the future. No offense meant, but I've got an awful lot to do.
07-18-2005, 01:50 AM
Ron, on another thread, someone asks the question, 'whats the first thing to go on a fighter". That question made me think of mike tyson. When tyson fought spinks, he had it all. He had tremendous side to side movement which made many an opponent miss. Later on, he had almost no movement whatsoever. He basically came straight at you and tried to knock your head off first. In your opinion, is tysons lack of movement due to age or a training flaw? I always thought his movement came from his legs, which looked like tree trunks. Did tyson neglect the legs too much to work on the upper body?
07-18-2005, 02:31 AM
An eternal boxing question and a good one.
I have strong feelings about this answer from a lifetime of watching it happen.
You have used Tyson as an example and all on the zone have watched Mike from the beginning either live, on film from the various early VCR tapes until his recent ring demise.
This is my answer: What goes first is focus, discipline, and clean living which got them the success in the first place. This combined with metabolic changes with age via metabolism and diet place obstacles in a fighter's path.
Depending upon the individual and how much training they are doing or not doing, punishment they are taking in the gym and in combat in the ring, outside forces robbing their focus like girlfriends, divorce, police trouble, partying, bad diet between fights, money issues all are demons to be pushed aside a la a Marciano in training camp with a spartan atomosphere.
With Tyson and Larry Holmes, with Ray Mercer, it was an area of the body which is very important to keep flexible and lean, the midsection, obliques, and lower back. As they age, they eat the same amount and train with the same methods and duration.
They NEVER compensate for their slower metablolism and they go to fat in bad places. Thus they cannot move the same way as the center of movement is in these areas.
The tone of their legs goes with age too and they just use boxing methods to train with rather than advanced training methods which contrary to the belief of some here, drain a fighter.
When you can give yourself a younger body with exercise, and changes in diet, you will last longer.
You will last longer in the ring, in the bedroom and you will not get sick as much.
Internally they must change what goes through the bowel, and get off the steak and eggs alone thing. Lay off the booze between fights, get an ab routine for the entire area and eat less and move more.
When you pound down the food between fights, get a thick waist, your arms and shoulders shrink in size and tone you will not execute well. You want to last in that ring and move quicker as you age, you have to work harder and correctly.
Tyson is a fatty, an endomorph by nature. It is the same as some babe who has dynamite legs from youth alone. She keeps smoking and drinking, hanging out late, not working out but still is a killer that everyone wants to screw. Then by 30 yrs of age, she has enough cellulite in her back thighs and ass to open a cottage cheese factory because youth isn't helping anymore.
Tyson was ripped to the tits from hardwork, youth, and a boxing regimen with Rooney that worked. He got older, cocky, stupid and partied too much. A common story. He can rock side to side all he wants, he can do preacher curls for his thick biceps all he wants and regular sit ups.
Not changing everything from the ground up is as stupid a lack of a metamorphasis as having Aaron Snowell in his corner in Tokyo because they were pals. Pals my ass, he used a blown up luke wark balloon-condom instead of a frozen enswell to try and aleviate the swelling.
Holyfield lasted as long as he did by training hard, in boxing and bodybuilding with polymetrics, movement, cable work and plenty of boxing skill training.
Mike never changed, ignorant people around him, and he is too one dimensional and petchulant. No one wants to hear someone going off on a juvenile rant and tirade on you while training him. **** him, he didn't listen to anyone who trained him right.
Sooo, he has no real training coach, no real fight teacher, and practices the same stuff in training camp.
Looping punches. All the Durans and Fenechs could do was teach him to fight like them. He has to fight like he used to. The only way is to weigh 217 in great shape not a 233lb semi muscular blivet with no determination, no focus and quite frankly you know MIke does not care anymore. A train wreck.
The first thing to go on Mike Tyson was his mind.
His mind if clear, focused, and with real goals like anyone elses can accomplish anything.
The old boxing addage is that the legs go, the punch stays, the reflexes go ad infinitum.
What goes is everything with age, everything.
You have to know how to slow it down, but it is very hard work and diet is a big part. Exercise is too, but one must move, move, move, movement is the key to life.
Remaining sedentary is a death sentence to all parts of the body. Inactive between fights that is over 35.
07-18-2005, 10:20 AM
Me and Dig we're just discussing Tyson's old style and the toll it takes on the body and effort on the midsecetion. Thanks for a great post, as always some real insightful stuff!
07-18-2005, 02:42 PM
For you and Dig, anytime my brother.
07-21-2005, 01:14 PM
I loved your answer to "what goes first".. Seems to me, its the focus and fire that got them there. These seem to pre-date reflexes or legs. Let a fighter go through a divorce or two and then see what happens.
07-21-2005, 04:56 PM
It is true Tom.
Fighting often, which means training often is full of pain and sacrifice. When you are young the well is full of piss and fire to fuel the dynamos.
In Tyson's case he had dreams of riches and accomplishment, he fought fast, hard and with those bad intentions. Remember no one fights for money, it's the things you can buy with the money, and the women, adulation, the whole trip.
The whole entire body must be kept in fighting trim to survive injury and as they get older and fat is harder to get rid of, they take short cuts and actually think they are the same warrior.
Hagler who ran and stayed in shape between fights was an amazing exception but father time even got Marvelous.
No one escapes, no one. The glory is fleeting and here but for a little while. To blow that dough any champ makes in the beginning is insanity and only someone who is not a student of boxing history will do that.
07-22-2005, 06:03 PM
Ron, what do you make of the success of Foreman's second career? (I apologize if you've addressed this elsewhere, but your comments on your recent post regarding Tyson prompted this query). I suspect that he probably worked much much harder than most fans would think, given his joking public persona and extra pounds. Also, it would seem he had disciplined his mind incredibly in order to withstand pain. It would seem he became a brilliant tactician (i.e., knowing when to hang back; knowing when to pounce). His punch seemed like didn't lose much power over the years. And maybe he was little fortunate in his opposition.... many fighters looked scared to death of him and froze; and Michael Moorer fought a very lazy fight in losing the title to George. Of course these are just theories of a fan who has never boxed himself. I was wondering what your take is.
07-22-2005, 06:58 PM
Hi Monty, thanks for writing and all your opinions are ones I agree with.
George had what I coined as the "Skeletal Mechanics" of a Terminator. His Stegasaurus bones are amazing.
He walks around the ring with his Redwood treetrunk thighs and arms like a Freight train moving through a prairie town, swinging punches and clubing like Briar Bear, from the Song of the South, "I'm going to knock your head clean off," type of approach.
The Moorer fight to me is a puzzle to this day. An enigma of boxing but fun to watch. Not as much fun as the Liston V Ali II bout which was an Oscar performance.
George's punch from 1973 is looong gawn. His heavy hands are still there, iron balls, ring savy, and mental mission. He proved his iron stones in the Alex Stewart and Holyfield fights in his second coming.
Was he that good or the guys he fought so bad. A little of both but many Kudos to big George for giving the youngsters a spanking now and then.
A powerhouse and a force to be sure.
07-22-2005, 10:26 PM
I just watched Dick Tiger's final fight with Emile Griffith. As you probably know, it took place in Madison Square Garden on July 15, 1970 - exactly 35 years ago.
I noticed that Tiger had Chick Ferrera and Freddy Brown in his corner. How good a trainer was Ferrera? What are your memories of him. How about Freddy Brown? Any good stories you can share with us?
Lastly, how different a fighter was Tiger in this final fight at age 38 than he was a decade earlier?
07-22-2005, 10:55 PM
Good to hear from you Tom, how are you doing?
The difference between the Dick Tiger that struggled with Emile in his last fight and the one who went to war with Hurricane Carter in May 65 and Henry Hank earlier, was like a Grizzly Bear comparred to a NJ Milk Cow.
The films I have of him thanks to Ade and Sal Rappa show him in 1958 in London and in San Francisco training for Fullmer. He was so sharp, so strong, so quick he was a beautiful athlete in tip top shape.
Now Freddie Brown and Chickie are some dynamic duo.
Chickie is someone who was revered by Angelo Dundee who used to tell me stories about him. Freddie with his flat nose, Q-tip in hand had eyes that saw everything there was to see in boxing.
I remember Freddie in Dick's corner when he fought Carter. I was sitting in the first row with my best buddy Jason Kedersha who was up in training camp with us and his girlfriend from Newark Lucielle Pilla. When Carter got dumped and chopped on and went down again in the 2nd round, the Garden noise was so loud I did not hear the bell. So when Zack Clayton looked like he was stopping the fight, everyone thought it was over. Well here comes Freddie Brown like Jack Kearns dragging Dempsey back to the ring, grabbing the Tiger and leading him calmly back to the corner while everyone else is bugging out, telling him the fight is still on.
Both Chickie and Freddie were like having Father time, Methusela, and the Guru on the Mount in your corner all at the same time. Nothing shook them up, no cut was too much for them, and their presence gave such a credibility to your corner, you just looked the part of a winning champ with them there.
Ray Arcel exuding that kind of credibility also and they were fair, polite to the other cornermen, no funny business, and pros to the death. They would fight for their man, argue if necessary but were part of the deep denizens of pro boxing in NY, sought after, respected and earned their pay.
Their combined experience in the corner would cut right to the chase and they knew each charge they were with.
They knew if a guy was hurt before the fighter who nailed him knew. Their knowledge was worth diamonds and they saw it all.
I know Freddie thought Tiger was a guy who could stand toe to toe with any middleweight in history and he always revered his hook as one of the best in boxing history.
08-03-2005, 08:36 PM
Did you ever meet Ray Arcel ? an if you did what kind of a guy was he
08-03-2005, 09:03 PM
Yes I did, when he was associated with Roberto Duran I saw him at the Garden and at Gleasons gym once also.
I ran into him a long time ago at a boxing writer's dinner too.
Each time I talked to him and rate him as one of the most pleasant and knowledgeable boxing men I have ever had the pleasure to talk to. I also rate Eddie Futch like that too, a gentleman with manners, knowledge and an easy going way about him.
One thing about Ray Arcel though, his eyes and ears have seen and heard it all in boxing, and once he associated himself with a fighter it had to be a maximum effort by that fighter and Ray would be his father in there like you with your boys.
When Duran quit in frustration V Leonard, it really disgusted and hurt Arcel. He had much faith in Roberto's ability and competitive spirit. It shocked his old school ways and he was of the opinion that the show must go on and the champ goes out on his shield.
I mostly spoke to him about Benny Leonard, Tony Canzoneri, and Joe Louis. He revered Leonard as the greatest. I kept asking him if Leonard could take Duran and he smiled and said no problem, but don't tell anyone I said so and smiled.
I said but Leonard couldn't hit that hard, and he took his hand gave me a little push on the shoulder looked at me like I was a crazy fool, and said with all the seriousness he could muster, "Are you kidding me, he'd kill ya with a right hand, he knew every trick in the book to set you up, never be another like him."
I just shut up after that.
He was very soft spoken, polite and liked by all.
08-03-2005, 09:08 PM
That a great story about a great boxing man
Juan C Ayllon
08-05-2005, 03:21 AM
<img border=0 src="http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/JuanCAyllon/Hopkins1995.jpg" />
This is a photo of Bernard Hopkins (left) with Ron Lipton in 1995 when Ron interviewed him.
Juan C. Ayllon
08-05-2005, 11:19 AM
I think the most importan thing we lost on the board, when the virus hit, was your views on some cases, legends, and your story with the legends and other boxers, and such.
Ever think of writting a wail thing on em???
08-05-2005, 04:23 PM
That would be fun, and thank you very much good buddy.
08-06-2005, 05:28 AM
Ron all the best in getting back your referees license I'm a british referee and could'nt contemplate how I would feel if it was to be taken away from me. All the best and good luck to the future.
08-06-2005, 06:47 AM
I made some friends with the BBBC back in the day, and have good memories of my time in England at Royal Albert Hall at the fights and my friendship with John Stracey, and the whole crew of Brits with me on the movie Muhammad Ali, The Whole Story, where the great English TV Editor Barry Reynolds worked with me.
It was a lot of fun working the two title fights I did in Ireland in Belfast at King's Hall with Eamon Loughran and Alessandro Duran, and the first Chris Eubank V Steve Collins fight in the Green Glenns Arena in Millstreet, where I ran into all my buddies from England again.
The NYSAC which is really run not by Ron Scott Stevens but by a political lawyer Hugo Spindola who tells him what to do, is packed with poltical appointees who have already been exposed in the press for knowing nothing about boxing and permitting deaths and scandals.
Although Stevens is a promoter with good friends in the media like Teddy Atlas, what he has done will come out in the wash.
Now and then he is given credit for not licensing a fighter who is way past his prime, which is what anyone would do if they had sense and he deserves no extra credit for that.
What is not spoken about is the other things he and his staff are responsible for in blackballing me, and using the worst referees who are permitted to injure and maim good fighters with their ignorance of boxing, and keeping people on his staff who are linked to several suspicious things in boxing like the faking of the weight of Arturo Gatti permitting him to outweigh Joey Gamache by 20 lbs and severely injure him.
Also the use of Mercante JR after his negligence caused the ring death of Beathoven Scotland in NY, after so many other ring atrocitites he committed by bad referee performances as in Whitiker V Huertado, Lewis V Grant,
Charles Murray V Reggie Green and on and on.
How many fights have you refereed over there and what is your name?
The ORIGINAL Irish JQ
08-06-2005, 08:08 AM
Hey Ron, I have a question for you:
What's your opinion on the hypocrisy surrounding Evander Holyfield's New York-based suspension, while Thomas Hearns (who is in MUCH worse shape) is still allowed to fight?
08-06-2005, 12:56 PM
Hey Irish JQ: I notice you are a new member to our board so I just want to say, Welcome aboard! I think you'll enjoy yourself here ...
08-06-2005, 01:18 PM
How are you and most welcome,
The licensing of fighters in the condition of Tommy Hearns or Evander Holyfield is not even a fine line issue.
It is very clear to anyone with horse sense that it is flirting with disaster.
Once Hurricane Carter answered a boxing scribe who mentioned to him how easy a fight it was when he saw Rubin knock out a man who hardly laid a glove on him.
Carter responded by saying, "Look man there is no such thing as an easy fight, only hard and bloody ones, if not for me, then it was for him."
This is true, to find someone who will not injure Hearns or Holyfield at this stage one must go to a respirator or the morgue for a victim. If not then the pampers and geritol will be flying.
Being in good muscular shape over the age of 45, 50, 55 is real nice to be in, but you will be placed in serious jeopardy in that boxing ring sooner or later.
Holyfield was denied not by some great and wise boxing sage in the form of Ron Scott Stevens but by the specter of the villagers being roused with their primitive weapons to come and obliterate the NYSAC if something bad happened to Holyfield who Stevie Wonder can see
is in the throes if not the onset of pugilistic dementia.
Tommy Hearns is so out of shape, so in need of speech therapy and rest for his brain cells that his fight was a sad spectacle of flabby combatants waging fistic war like two floundering sea creatures washed up on a beach,
banging heads like two elephant seals.
Very sad and dangerous stuff indeed, it should have been held to Caliope Circus music with dancing bears and clowns tumbling in afterward.
For God's sakes they say a fighter is old at 38. Unless you compete with other men your age the rule should be a national cut off age in pro boxing of 43 or so, with a grandfather division but no walkers allowed.
But don't worry they will have a walker division too if Arum, King, or some Bumble Futz Commission got the business.
The ORIGINAL Irish JQ
08-06-2005, 01:27 PM
Thanks for the response. On one hand, I can see the need for an age limit. But if there were an age limit in the 1950's, for example, then we'd never have seen the heroics of the ageless Archie Moore. Or in the 1990's with George Foreman. Or also in the 1990's with Larry Holmes....well, scratch that one. :lol
In my opinion, I don't think there should be an automatic age limit where you're not allowed to compete at all. But once you pass a certain age, say 38, then you should have more tests run on said-boxer that are more strict than the average competitor.
The ORIGINAL Irish JQ
08-06-2005, 01:57 PM
By the way, everybody looks at Hearns and Holyfield because they're the most high-profile examples at the moment. But if it's not a "star", then nobody cares (as far as the media goes).
Take Frankie Randall...the guy has lost 14 of his last 19 fights. 11 of those 14 losses were by KO/TKO and he's lost 3 straight by KO/TKO.
How in the hell is this possible?! He loses by TKO in 2003, so there's an automatic 90-day medical suspension right? So what does he do?
He starts fighting in Mexico. After dropping a decision to J.C. Chavez in 2004, he loses by second round KO to Marco Antonio Rubio in January of 2005. Just ONE MONTH LATER, he's in a Mexican ring again against Mauro Lucero. Guess what...he got TKO'd again.
Then in July of this year (since, technically, he'd served the required suspension from the 2003 loss in the U.S.) he fought Craig Weber and lost by 6th round TKO.
Randall has enough wear & tear on his body from his ring wars alone, but in addition to that he's got the extra wear from his years as a drug addict.
When are people going to step in and FORCE these guys to stop fighting? How many Meldrick Taylor's do they have to see before something is done about this?
08-06-2005, 11:30 PM
Good points Irish JQ.
I have trouble with the catch-22 situation of older fighters. Most are fighting for the money because they either don't have much left or can get more money than than they would by doing anything else. It is bad for the sport and its PR when one of the brave warriors that steps into the ring either dies or is seriously injured from a fight and these older fighters are at more risk.
However, most boxers do not save money. Because of the nature of the sport, they generally do not have the chance to get college educations and succeed in society outside of the sport. Boxing has no pensions, and the promoters that make money off the fighters let them go after they lose their skills. These fighters have known nothing in their life but hitting and getting hit (especially the former champs and generally fighters start early). They have tasted the high of victory and seen some money from their championship fights. They are deluded into thinking "I did it before and I can do it again." When they land some good shots in the gym, they focus on that far more than any greater fatigue they might feel or handspeed they might have lost. They look at what Foreman did at 45 against Moorer and the glory he got for winning at that age. They want to feel the roar of the crowd that sitting at home just doesn't provide.
I never boxed and I can only imagine what getting hit constantly feels like. But if that was the only skill I knew, and I had no job experience to do anything else, I can't say that I might not decide to do the same thing and continue far past when I should have quit. Unfortunately, we as fans cannot pay their bills and live their everyday lives. We can't feel what they feel on an everyday basis. So, if a fighter can look in the mirror and want to fight, and passes all of the relevant medical tests, I think they should be allowed to fight and make whatever money they can.
08-07-2005, 10:43 AM
the problem is that the licensing agencies that allow public fights carry public responsibility for what is sanctioned.
Cursory medical tests, such as is your heart beating properly, or an absence of a venerial disease in the urine are not the only level we must place the limbo bar here. Even an absence of damage in a cat scan.
All great points that you made to be sure, then the inalienable right to pursue one's dreams and livlihood are also in the cauldron here with the whole pot pourrie of decision to license.
Then there is common sense and allowing a person who is slurring speech, and showing signs of pugilistic dementia to get into a ring and get pounded some more in the name of it is his right.
It is, but not with the sanctioning of a public agency tasked with maintaining the health and welfare of pro boxers.
08-07-2005, 10:43 AM
How have you been buddy? I wanted to ask you a question about a detail that has always bugged me (and it happened again last night when Jorge Alonzo butchered the Reid-Lacy fight). When a fighter is struck with a low blow, and the referee acknowledges the foul, the rule is that the fouled fighter has five minutes to recover. Right? Why is it that the vast majority of referees don't just let the guy go into a neutral corner to recover and -within the time allowed- wait until the fighter signals he's good to go? Instead, what we see most of the time is the referee hovering over the fighter and repeatedly asking him if he's OK, and often times urging him to get back in action right away (like Alonzo did last night). I don't know about you, but if I'm struck on the cojones, the last thing I want is someone breathing over my shoulder and repeatedly urging me to continue. I don't know, I get the impression that most referees discourage the fighter from taking the full rest alowed by the rules, and just want the action resumed as quickly as possible. Is it an unwritten rule that taking the full five minutes ought to be discouraged? Thanks in advance for your answer.
08-07-2005, 10:44 AM
Jorge Alonzo is the worsts referee i seen in over 50 years of been involved in boxing, bad,bad job
08-07-2005, 04:15 PM
In the rules of the NY State Athletic Commisson under Referee's Powers and Duties section 211.6, "The referee shall have the exclusive authority to stop a contest or exhibition at any stage because of a major foul being committed by either participant. This is taken out of context, here is the rest:
The referee (He or she) shall observe carefully and continually the physical condition of the participants and shall have full and final responsibility either at his discretion or upon recommendation from the attending ringside physician for the immediate halting of any contest wherein, for any reason the safety of the participant would be jeopordized by continuence.
(Note: This is where Mercante Jr continually failed in the Beathoven Scotland fight), The referee shall have exclusive authority in the event of an injury to a participant to interrupt the progress of a round by directing the timekeeper to stop the clock and calling upon the ringside physician into the ring to examine and advise upon the condition of the injured participant.
If it shall be decided by the referee upon advice of the physician that such particiapnt is fit to continue, the referee shall dirrect the timekeeper to start the clock and the round shall be resumed from the point of interruption, provided, however, that no such interruption of a round shall be ordered when the condition of the distressed party is such as would be materially remedied by an unscheduled rest period, EXCEPT THAT THE INJURY INVOLVED SHALL HAVE RESULTED FROM A FOUL ACTION BY THE OPPOSING PARTICIPANT, WHEN THE REFEREE UPON THE ADVICE OF THE ATTENDING PHYSICIAN, SHALL ORDER SUCH REASONABLE REST PERIOD AS SHALL BE APPROPRIATE."
The actual proper procedure when a low blow or any foul like hitting on the break is causing a fighter to be visibly injured and knocked down is to do what I always did immediatley.
1. Let everyone within ear shot and in plain sight, fighters, corners, judges, know instantly whether it was Intentional or Unintentional by yelling that call out loud, to the timekeeper, "TIME-5 minutes-INTENTIONALLY HITTING ON THE BREAK, OR INTENTIONAL LOW BLOW, INTENTIONAL RABBIT PUNCH.
2. THEN TELL THE GUILTY PARTY TO GO TO A NEUTRAL CORNER. CORNER MEN NOT PERMITTED TO SPEAK TO HIM.
TELL THE INJURED FIGHTER AND HIS CORNER HE HAS 5 MINUTES TO CONTINUE OR NOT.
3. CALL THE DOCTOR IN AND HAVE HIM ADMINISTER TO THE INJURED FIGHTER.
4. DURING THIS TIME, DEDUCT POINTS 2 FOR INTENTIONAL, 1 FOR UNINTENTIONAL DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES
FROM THE GUILTY PARTY.
5. IF FIGHTER TRIES TO QUIT, IT'S ON THE DOCTOR TO TELL THE REFEREE WHETHER HE CAN CONTINUE OR NOT. IF IT IS FROM AN INTENTIONAL BLOW, THE GUILTY PARTY THEN LOSES ON A DQ IF THE INJURED FIGHTER CANNOT CONTINUE.
IF HE CANNOT CONTINUE AND THE REFEREE HAS RULED UNINTENTIONAL THEN THE INJURED FIGHTER AFTER 5 MINUTES LOSES ON A TKO.
I always tell them the same thing in mid ring. "I've given you the rules, respect each other, obey my commands and let's keep this strictly professional.
The above is the way to do that in that kind of scenario.
Referees should always call the doctor in, like when Czyz tried to quit in the Holyfield fight and him and his corner in front of 18-20 thousand people and millions on HBO tried to tell me he had a substance in his eyes, then in the corner he and Parks tried to cook up a phony back injury, then decided on the eyes.
Fine, I call the doctor in there to examine him and give him time to recover. He chooses not to continue he lost on a tko.
No substance was ever found except Holyfield's glove repeatedly punching his face in.
If Lacy hit on the break, Referee should have given 5 minutes rest, called the Doctor in, but he has to call the words out loud and proud INTENTIONAL OR UNINTENTIONAL FOUL.
That determines the outcome after 5 minutes.
The reason other referees don't do it, is they are not boxing men, but political pals of someone who got them the fight.
They panic, are too overly officious, not centered under pressure and are too busy making it look like they are boxing too, trying to bark tough orders with a pot belly, making gestures when they are introduced to their friends and family, winking at the crowd, literallly putting pancake makeup on in the dressing room like I saw Mercante Sr do once and almost threw up for him thinking he was a star ad infinitum.
Now I notice that Smoger tells them how to box too, to keep their hands up, and coaches them while they are fighting.
Then they have a guy who was on a couple of days ago from Conn at Foxwoods that was dancing around the ring and moving his hands like he was boxing. Almost threw up from that one.
What is his name anyway?
08-08-2005, 01:10 AM
Thanks Ron. Your insights are always appreciated.
I agree with what you say, I just wonder about the fighters themselves. Maybe you can answer this. When a fighter gets treated after a fight for injuries, do they just address the actual injuries or do they dig deeper for any pre-emptive signs of future disease based on the damage inflicted? And if they see that a fighter has a higher risk for such-and-such disease because of getting hit in certain body regions, are the boxers covered for it when it occurs? Does a promoter have to pay for this insurance and what does it cover?
08-08-2005, 02:23 AM
I draw from several wells here to answer you question as best as I can, not that I am Ask Jeeves, but a fan and friend who has been around this kind of thing for many years.
I unfortunately with wisdom and hindsight have had many streetfights resulting in hospital visits for all, fights in the ring, the same, and refereed many a bout where there have been injuries for the warriors involved.
The most important thing whether it be pride in the way, pubic image of not wanting the other guy to know you went to the hospital or covering up these things so the bouts themselves resulting in necessitated hospital visits do not become too publicized for the detriment of boxing, it goes like this.
Ali went to the hospital for his swollen jaw in the Frazier I fight, Smoke went to the hospital for being damn near kidney failure from the dehydration and output and swollen contusive face.
If someone has a proclivity for being injured in a certain area, broken hands, concussion, same ribs etc, the Commission automatically sits a fighter down after a tko or ko loss.
Injuries that are serious cannot be kept too quiet in boxing. Sometimes the promoter who has insurance pays for these things, depending what is in the contract.
From the days of Dr. Vincent Nardiello stitching up fighters in MSG, and the fight doctors tending them at ringside, it is taken care of then and there as the followup stitching in the dressing room.
Now a days they go to the hospital and two ambulances, are standing by at all times. In 2005 if a fighter is hurt he goes to the hospital and all comes out in the wash from Cat Scans, MRI's if ordered, blood workups and anaylis of the injuries immediately incurred in the bout.
Upon being admitted the individual I am sure has to present his insurance. If it is in the contract the onus can be on the promoter, or partly the responsibility falls upon the fighter if the follow up care is mandated.
Anti inflammatories like Naproxen for mass contusions, swelling etc are not uncommon, as is intraveinous fluid to hydrate a guy who put out too much by drying out.
It is a blood sport and one must be in tip top shape.
They screen for aids, hepatitus, drug abuse, stimulants,
before and after.
The medical scrutiny must be at a high level and that is why the referees have to be alert for signs of a concussed fighter, who someone who is internally wounded. I am well schooled in these matters as a ref.
The way however that Gerald McClellan a great and brave warrior has been abandoned by the money bags is a prime example of what minefields and pitfalls await a brave warrior who gives his all.
King, Arum and all the rest should take care of this guy for the rest of his life and not just throw him a bone.
The fat bellies with the big cigars should foot the bill for fucking forever for that poor soul so he lives comfortably.
Otherwise, you are pretty much on your own if you go down hard. That's playing with the Big Boys for you.
Juan C Ayllon
08-13-2005, 11:25 AM
Here are the first two of four documents Ron forwarded me in his unsuccessful bid to be reinstated as a licensed referee in the state of New York. The CBZ's Mike DeLisa represented him.
My deepest sympathies,
Juan C. Ayllon
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * AFFIDAVIT
RONALD G. LIPTON, * * * * ROUGH COPY
NEW YORK STATE ATHLETIC COMMISSION,
RON SCOTT STEVENS, HUGO SPINDOLA, JEROME BECKER,
RONALD G. LIPTON being duly sworn, depose and say:
1.* * * * I am a professional boxing referee who has been involved in boxing most of my life as a former three time amateur boxing champion, sparring partner of many great boxing champions like Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, Rubin “Hurricane” Carter and many other champions and contenders. I am mentioned as such in Hurricane Carter’s Book “The Sixteenth Round” , and in the upcoming book, “Dick Tiger, The Life and Times of a Boxing Immortal,” about the former undisputed middleweight and light heavyweight champion of the world as his sparring partner who helped him prepare for a world title fight.
2.* * * * I was a licensed professional boxing referee with the NYSAC from 1990 until 1997, licensed each and every year with each application, while also licensed in NJ, Pennsylvania, Maine, and Missouri. In addition, I was licensed in Vermont up until July 31, 2004. I refereed the main event at a professional boxing show in Rutland Vermont in 2002. I have refereed championship boxing matches in Ireland and Italy and have refereed World title fights in most all the major weight classes in professional boxing on HBO, Pay per view, ESPN, USA and MSG channels, and have refereed main events at Madison Square Garden.
3.* * * * I am a winner of the 2002 Lifetime Civil Rights Achievement Award presented to me in Poughkeepsie NY which was televised and have won the Black Prestige Community Service Award for my service to Boxing. I am presently employed as a teacher of a credited boxing course in physical education at Marist College in Poughkeepsie NY where I have taught for the last 3 years. I am also a retired police officer who worked as an Investigator for the Hudson County Prosecutor’s Office in NJ and various NY and NJ police departments and am credited as the police officer who freed Rubin Hurricane Carter by Carter himself in a National televised interview on Newsport Talk on March 25, 1997.
4.* * * * In addition to the above, I am a published boxing historian and boxing writer in Ring Magazine, Boxing Illustrated, World Boxing, International Boxing, Ulster Magazine and Cyberboxingzone and was a member of the Boxing Writer’s Association of America. I have received an on screen credit as the “Senior Boxing Consultant” for the film “Muhammad Ali, the Whole Story,” which was aired on the TNT network and is available in video stores in 6 one hour tapes. I am also a boxing choreographer whose work was publicized in all the NY papers as winning the choreography award for the New York Play, “Ali,” in 1992.
5.* * * * I had been asked for in 1995 by Mel Crystal, the then Chairman of the Irish Boxing Commission as the most honest American referee who they wanted to officiate the World Super middleweight Championship between Middleweight Champion Steve Collins and the English Champion Chris Eubank on March 15, 1995, which was held in Millstreet Ireland and televised to all of Europe and the Orient on Sky TV. I refereed the fight despite attempts to fix the fight, by outside sources in an attempt to coerce the officials. I reported this misconduct immediately and testified as such in High Court in Dublin Ireland in 1997 in a subsequent case. Steven Collins the champion has supplied the NYSAC with a letter of recommendation as to my abilities as a referee and as an honest official who stood up to corruption.
6.* * * * I had been chosen in May 1995 to referee the Pay Per View Event of the long awaited return of Evander Holyfield to the ring. It was billed as “The Return of the Warrior” and held in Atlantic City NJ on Pay Per View TV. The bout with Evander Holyfield V Ray Mercer the former Olympic Heavyweight Gold medal winner was refereed by me. I also was the referee for the Main Event of a Triple Header in Madison Square Garden in 1996 in which Holyfield fought Bobby Czyz on HBO and I not only officiated the main event but prevented a scandal by my decisive and professional handling of the in-the-ring action.
7.* * * * I have refereed the Super Middleweight Championship fight on HBO in Madison Square Garden with Roy Jones Jr. V Bryant Brannon, which is shown in the Al Pacino movie,. “The Devil’s Advocate,” and the Mel Gibson movie, “Payback.”
8.* * * * I was chosen by Floyd Patterson himself to referee the return of boxing to New York City after an almost 3 year absence. I refereed the Oscar DeLahoya v James Leija Lightweight Championship of the World on HBO that was billed as the “Return to the Mecca,” and held in Madison Square Garden before a sellout crowd.
9.* * * * I have boxes of video tapes where my work and performance as a referee is complimented continuously by the TV color commentators such as Al Bernstein, HBO’s Harold Ledderman, Dave Bontempo and Brian Kenny the host of ESPN boxing who is seen constantly on ESPN network and pay per view events. As recent as May of this year, Brian Kenny mentioned me on the air as one of the top professional boxing referees in the world.
10.* * * * I will be appearing in an upcoming documentary as a top referee and boxing expert giving background analysis on the life of former heavyweight boxing champion James J. Braddock, for the upcoming movie, entitled “Cinderella Man,” starring Russel Crowe. The documentary is scheduled to be aired on the A& E network in the coming year.
11.* * * * In November 2003 the HBO famous boxing Judge Harold Ledderman, contacted the Chairman of the NYSAC Ron Scott Stevens and told him I was the best referee in NY state and one of the finest in the business and that I should be licensed. Hugo Spindola acknowledged to me he was aware of these calls and claims he was present when they took place.
12.* * * * I have refereed the IBC Heavyweight championship between Tommy “The Duke” Morrison and Razor Ruddock, who twice fought Mike Tyson. It was held on pay per view where I also refereed Roberto Duran the former 6 division champion of the world. The fight was held in Kansas City, Missouri.
13.* * * * I have refereed many other exciting professional boxing matches involving the best athletes in the sport and have done title fights and bouts involving top contenders and champions in Ledyard Connecticut at Foxwoods Casinos. One title fight there was a live national telecast on channel 5 between Yori Boy Campos and Randy Stephens for the IBF Junior Middleweight Title. I refereed the Tracy Patterson V Hector Acero Sanchez for the WBC Junior Featherweight Championship of the World on ESPN in Atlantic City, also the NABF Light Heavyweight Championship between Merqui Sosa and Prince Charles Williams which resulted in a record setting double TKO. This was televised live where both boxers health was saved by my performance as the referee and my performance was continuously complimented on the air by the boxing experts at ringside.
14.* * * * I have refereed the Super Bantam weight title fight in Calgari Italy between Harold Grey and Vicenzo Belcastro and the Welterweight Championship of the World between Eamon Loughran and Allesandro Duran in Belfast Ireland. In each place I referee I have newspaper articles and films of the fights in which the boxing writers and commentators say I did a great job. I have refereed the WBC World Welterweight Championship fight between Pernell Whitiker voted the pound per pound greatest fighter of that time and Gary Jacobs of Scotland live on HBO.
15.* * * * In various conversations with famous HBO Boxing Judge Harold Ledderman it was revealed to me that Mr. Ledderman spoke to Ron Scott Stevens on November 3rd, 2003 and November 10, 2003 on my behalf but to no avail in trying to get some justice for me and fair play to have my license renewed after years of blackballing and harassment by the NYSAC. In the summer of 2004 at a fight card held in Middletown NY, Mr. Ledderman told me in person that they have “So many letters of reference, so much boxing background on me, they do not even care how good a job you do, don’t even send them any more, it doesn’t help, just be polite to Ron Scott Stevens and everything should be okay.”
16.* * * * In those conversations in November of 2003, Mr. Ledderman also told them that the referees they are using are not as good as me and it is public knowledge that they have caused ring deaths and injuries, yet the commission uses them again based on political and personal friendships rather than ability.
17. I pointed out to Mr. Ledderman that it was inexplicable that Chairman Stevens could justify using his close friend Arthur Mercante Junior in main events at Madison Square Garden and elsewhere when he had not only caused the death of fighter Beathoven Scotland in the ring against George Jones in Manhattan in June of 2001, and was written up by various boxing writers as being responsible for the fighter being killed, by letting him take a vicious head beating throughout the fight culminating in many solid and unanswered punches in the ring in that fight until he collapsed and died.
It was during this live telecast on ESPN that the commentators like Max Kellerman were screaming for the fight to be stopped and the follow up news coverage of the death laid much of the blame on Mercante Junior’s negligence, yet he is continually forgiven and used in NY State by Ron Scott Stevens.
He was often used as a referee by Ron Scott Stevens despite additionally having caused other fighters to be injured in televised bouts of which we have the films. Mercante Junior was voted the 5th worst referee in the world by Ring magazine yet is still not only licensed but used in main events and title fights in NY State because of his father’s political connections and Mercante Jr’s friendship with Chairman Ron Scott Stevens and a former NY Commissioner, Randy Gordon.
18.* * * * Furthermore I had written the NYSAC that Mercante Junior had also been vilified by the entire boxing community as being an inept and dangerous referee who had almost literally caused another ring death through his negligence in the Pernell Whitiker V Huertado fight televised live on HBO. The HBO commentators like Larry Merchant and Jim Lamply said it was the worst referee performance since Emile Griffith killed Benny Kid Paret in 1962, yet Mercante Junior was allowed to be licensed and used in fights again and again until he allowed Scotland to be killed in the ring resulting in a tremendous public outcry and lawsuit.
Some of the fights he was allowed to referee despite his continuous inept performances were the main event involving Lennox Lewis V Michael Grant televised live on HBO in which Lennox Lewis was permitted to violate the NYSAC rules of holding and hitting when he held Michael Grant with one hand and knocked him out while flagrantly violating the rules without being penalized by Mercante Junior.
The NYSAC was made aware of the film that existed on the Whitiker V Huertado fight and the Charles Murray V Reggie Green fight in which Mercante junior let Reggie Green be knocked down several times without coming to the fighter’s aid with an 8 count. The negligence shown is beyond belief yet because of political considerations Mercante junior is still used by the present NYSAC despite him causing a ring death. He was used in a title fight in MSG in May of 2005 and many more times before by Ron Scott Stevens’ appointments.
19.* * * * I have consistently been punished by the withholding of my referee license for telling the truth about the rampant corruption and use of the worst officials which have placed fighter’s lives in jeopardy.
20.* * * * On July 28, 2004 in Middletown NY I spoke with Hugo Spindola in person at the fight card held there and asked him if I could apply again for my referee license. He told me yes and that the main problem was that they did not want me ever speaking out against the Commission to the press again. I told him I would not and I just wanted my license back and have been respectful and polite in all my correspondence to the NYSAC.
21.* * * * I called him the next day July 29, 2004 and told him I would be obtaining my medicals which is a great expense and the EKG the commission requires. He said to wait until Aug 31, 2004 and then get the medicals done and send in $50 once again. I did so and had my attorney send in the fee and mail my application. The Commission waited until October 7, 2004, six days before the mandated seminar to tell me in the “Interests of Boxing I am denied.”
22.* * * * I have been active with former Heavyweight Canadian Champion George Chuvalo in his anti-drug program in arranging personal appearances and lectures with George Chuvalo where we have both appeared on television and in the newspapers as helping the youth of our country fight drug abuse. I have provided all my updated community service background to the NYSAC.
23.* * * * Despite all of this and my lifelong work in professional boxing the various members of the NYSAC have seen fit to prevent me from working the main events and now being licensed at all in the most illegal and nefarious way imaginable to punish me for speaking out against their biased conduct which has endangered fighter’s lives and has been exposed in the press and Manhattan District Attorney’s office.
24. These same Commission members Jerome Becker, Marc Cornstein, and former Commission Executive Director Tony Russo, whose friends are still at the Commission had been previously exposed by Pulitzer prize winning author Jack Newfeld and former NY Post columnist Wally Matthews in a three part expose in the NY Post, as being totally inept, crooked and biased political appointees who have ruined boxing in NY State and they themselves have no knowledge of professional boxing. These people and their friends are still actively responsible for blackballing me and have participated in preventing me from getting a license from 1998- 2004 and attending this year’s referee seminar.
25. I have been denied a renewal of my professional boxing referee license by the above individuals who are presently in control of the New York State Athletic Commission. Despite my above referenced credentials, the refusal is couched in a phrase by Hugo Spindola that “For the Good of Boxing” I am denied my license application in its entirety. It is my contention that under the color of law the above Commission has acted without any accountability as a State Agency while in the control of the above persons and has denied my license for the most nefarious of reasons which I am prepared to expose in a court of law holding the Commission and each member responsible for their actions and damages caused me with such a preponderance of irrefutable evidence that any jury would be hard pressed to ignore it.
26. The Commission had held a referee seminar on October 13, 2004. Attendance was mandated yearly by the commission for any referee wanting to be actively assigned to officiate at professional boxing matches held for the remainder of 2004 and 2005.
27. My application was submitted in timely fashion with the most respectfully submitted letters and was denied at the 11th hour in a letter dated October 7, 2004 signed by Hugo Spindola. Mr. Spindola spoke to my attorney Mike DeLisa on October 7, 2004 and gave him no indication whatsoever that I would be denied a license and Hugo Spindola was told that we would both be attending the seminar. I then received the NYSAC letter at my Hyde Park NY address on Saturday October 9, 2004.
28. *******My application was previously denied last year by the Chairman Ron Scott Stevens telling me in a phone conversation on November 23, 2003 that the “Only reason my application was denied was because we have too many guys, and that is my decision alone, no one else was asked.”
29. The way this suspicious decision was arrived at and rendered unto me impacts on the credibility of that decision in 2003 and the fraudulence of the decision in 2004, couched in every conceivable violation of my rights. Nothing has occurred from 2003-2004 that would necessitate the change from “We have too many guys,” to the fraudulent claim, “For the good of boxing.”
30. As soon as this was stated to me, I called the Commission Attorney Hugo Spindola on November 24, 2003 who stated to me, that Ron Scott Stevens asked the other Commissioners, Jerome Becker and Marc Cornstein if they “Wanted” me back. Furthermore I was told that others at the Commission were asked and they did not want me to be given my license renewal.
31. He was told this information was in direct conflict to what the Chairman just told me as it being his own decision with no one else being involved. When Spindola was told by me the Chairman Ron Scott Stevens is on record telling me my license was ONLY denied because he had too many referees, as opposed to what the Commission Attorney was saying to me, Spindola became tongue tied and stated he would instruct Ron Scott Stevens not to speak to me again and that he the Commission attorney would only do the talking.
32. Spindola setting a precedent never heard of, had in essence taken over the role of Executive Director of the Commisson and was seen in Middletown New York at the Orange County Fairgrounds in May 2004, taking over the role of Inspector, Executive Director and basically running the NYSAC overruling the Chairman’s position while acting as the Commission attorney. Spindola’s friendship with Ralph Petrillo, who was made Director of Boxing as a political reward, was upgraded to that position from being in charge of collecting and processing urine samples from the fighter’s for drug testing.
33. Neither Spindola or Petrillo has any background in professional boxing and maintain on the Commission the very friends of Russo the fired former Executive Director, who was convicted of a Federal kidnapping in the Armand Hammer case, and supposedly served jail time. This can be confirmed by any record check to see if the NYSAC permitted his hiring knowing he was a convicted felon.
34. It is beyond belief if this is confirmed that his hiring was permitted yet he was still hired and appointed as the NYSAC’S EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, are his friends and close associates still employed there are still instrumental in denying me a license for telling the truth about their scandals, fighter injuries and ring deaths as Ron Scott Stevens, the present chairman is taking direction from these people as the evidence will show in a jury trial.
35. In 2003 after being told my license was to be denied I then asked for a hearing which was granted by the Commission attorney. He was told witnesses would be brought in to testify for me including boxing champions and evidence shown on film that they were using the most inept and unprofessional referees and that my record was better in the ring. Furthermore that former Commission members had harassed me for speaking out about the various scandals and finally that their use of their friends like Arthur Mercante Junior resulted in a ring death which I predicted in writing years before.
36. Furthermore I had written the Commission in 1997 telling them that I was told I would be blackballed for speaking out against the corruption in their choice of ring officials which involved their former Executive Director Tony Russo, whose friends as stated above are still active in the present Commission. The evidence which we have and are prepared to present in a court of law shows that once Russo’s conduct complete with taped recordings was given to the Manhattan D.A.’s office and made public, I was threatened by Russo that his friends would see to it that I would never referee again in NY and NJ.
37. I also have evidence from the Chairman of the NJSACB, who had called my home prior to me refereeing the Roy Jones Jr V Bryant Brannon fight I refereed on HBO in 1997, telling me that the NYSAC was not going to use me anymore and that NJ would have to cooperate with NY. The officials for the fights in NY would be chosen more by friendship based on political contribution not ability. This alone precludes them from saying because of a sole misdemeanor conviction in a self-defense case against 3 men, I am denied a license because the tapes show I was to be blackballed before any false charges. The only other conviction is for a non crime a violation for yelling at a former girlfriend of 8 years, in my own home who was schooled to filed false charges in a domestic case, by friends of Russo. All charges were dismissed and resulted in my winning of two lawsuits. A violation is not a crime in NY or anywhere else. In both cases the friends of Russo were heavily involved. Russo used to be in charge of the Newburgh Mall Security and knew both female officers who were involved in creating both cases and contacting the Commission.
38. Police friends and associates of Russo’s orchestrated three false separate cases in which all charges were dismissed (See Attorney Smith letter), except one self-defense charge of simple misdemeanor assault which was the result of one punch thrown in self defense by me against 3 younger men who hunted me down and attacked me because of a legal dispute with their friend. They went out socially with a Commission member Even a police officer can keep his job in NY State convicted of any misdemeanor, let alone a self defense situation.
39. That friend was a close associate of Mike Fayo an inspector with the NYSAC. The Judge Tim Tamsen who presided over this falsely obtained misdemeanor conviction was disbarred for theft and dishonesty and lost his law license for life, after I grieved him with the Ethics Committee for his conduct during the self defense case. He deliberately did not preserve the stenographic record for appeal. The Judge was seen by investigative reporters often in the company of the NYSAC’s director of Boxing, Ralph Petrillo, Russo’s close friend. Petrillo owns a restaurant near where I used to live and the former Town of Newburgh local court Judge Tim Tamsen who was disbarred and kicked off the bench was seen in his kitchen helping him cook.
My own lawyer during this case was found guilty of professional misconduct so tainted was the sole misdemeanor conviction obtained through the collective machinations behind the scene which Tamsen allowed.
40. Gerald Stern the head of the Judicial Conduct commission acknowledged to me they had many complaints of misconduct against Tim Tamsen, and my file against him regarding the handling of my case impacted on their view of him as a jurist. The behind the scenes query of “Other” Commission member as to whether I “should be” licensed again is diabolical in it’s reasoning as it has nothing to do with my character, performance or anything but harassment, FOR FILING GRIEVANCES AGAINST THE DIRECTOR OF BOXING, RALPH PETRILLO’S FRIEND, TIM TAMSEN, THE EXPOSE OF ART MERCANT JR, FOR HIS IN THE RING NEGLIGENCE RESULTING IN INJURIES AND DEATH OF FIGHTERS.
41. FURTHERMORE, RON SCOTT STEVEN’S FRIEND THE FORMER COMMISSIONER RANDY GORDON’S CONSTANT USE OF MERCANTE JR, IN MAIN EVENTS IS CONTINUED BY STEVENS AND THE REVENGE UTILIZED BY THEM IN DENYING ME A LICENSE FOR TELLING THE TRUTH IS ILLEGAL, AND IS BEING DONE UNDER THE COLOR OF LAW.
42. ADDITIONALLY THE CONNECTION TO THE FIRED TONY RUSSO IS EVIDENT AND BEING USED TO DENY ME A LICENSE. THE POLITICAL DONATIONS MADE BY THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE, CORNSTEIN, BECKER ET AL WAS EXPOSED IN THE NY POST. THESE PEOPLE ARE PLAYING GAMES WITH THE LIVES OF FIGHTERS AND ARE USING THE WORST OFFICIALS WHILE DENYING ME A LICENSE.
43. WE ASK THE COURT FOR THE CHANCE TO SHOW THE FILMS OF THE REFEREES BEING USED, THEIR PHYSICAL CONDITION, THEIR BACKGROUND, AND THE HISTORY OF ART MERCANTE JUNIOR AND THE EXPOSES DONE ON JEROME BECKER, MARC CORNSTEIN, AND THE CONFLICT OF INTERESTS WHICH EXISTS WITH THE PROMOTIONAL BACKGROUND OF RON SCOTT STEVENS WHICH PREVENTS ANY FAIR JOB EVER BEING POSSIBLY DONE WITH HIS CONNECTION TO OTHER PROMOTERS WHILE CHOOSING REFEREES BASED ON POLITICS, WHICH WE ARE PREPARED TO PROVE IN COURT.
44. The former Deputy Commissioner Mike Pascale, Russo’s lifelong friend and companion can be seen sitting next to Ron Scott Stevens on 12/16/03, in a special reserved section for officials only, in Madison Square Garden during the Vladamir Klitchco V Kirk Johnson fight, also on November 13, 2004 working the John Ruiz V Andrew Golota fight in MSG.
45. *******DESPITE Stevens telling me that Russo’s friends were all gone from the Commission. It is clearly evident that my license denial in 2003 was not because “They had too many referees”, some of which were appointed after the commission refused to answer my numerous letters from 1998-2003 to get my license back.
46. It cannot be for the fact that I have but one misdemeanor conviction for self defense in which the appeal is still pending, as police officers in New York State are allowed not only to keep their jobs and pistol permits with ANY misdemeanor conviction.
47. Nor can the reason be that I have but one “Violation” offense for yelling in protest at anti-Semitic phone calls coming into my home, in which police friends of Russo and Petrillo had placed vicious anti-Semitic literature into my mailbox at my former home in Newburgh NY, which was promptly reported by me to the Department of Justice. The false charges their friends help orchestrate against me by a former girlfriend were DISMISSED!
48. The threat to blackball me as a referee in NY State which is binding on other commissions based on NY’s action, was reported to attorneys and the press prior to any false charges being filed against me and this evidence will be presented in a court of law.
49. I had received a call from the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board Chairman Larry Hazzard on my answering machine which is a matter of record, stating that after I reported the NYSAC’s refusal to take action on the various illegal appointing of officials, “They weren’t going to use me anymore after I refereed the Roy Jones Jr V Brant Brannon fight,” this all being PRIOR to any false charges of ANY kind filed against me. Furthermore I was told by the NJSACB Chairman Larry Hazzard, that “NY was my home base and I could not even have my NJ license back because NY would not use me”, as both commissions let their referees officiate for the other in a symbiotic relationship. Therefore if NY blackballs you, NJ will then follow suit. This is evidenced by the use of the NJ referees in NY on Nov 13, 2004 in MSG.
50. The continuation of this harassment at the hands of Ron Scott Stevens whose position as Chairman is and will always be questioned by the press as a conflict of interests as Stevens is a boxing promoter and has strong ties and friendships to other promoters. This is consistent with his ties to former administration members whose conduct in using Arthur Mercante Jr. and other referees whose performances ruined not only fighter’s health but their lives too.
51. The NYSAC use of referees from other states as reciprocal favors, while NY residents like myself are continuously prevented from doing main events or even being licensed is patently unfair, while a NY resident like me is being told on the record, “I am denying you a license because we have too many referees.” The use in main events of NJ resident referees like Steve Smoger, Randy Neuman, Benji Estevez, Mike Ortega and others is a matter of record. Estevez one of the kindest gentleman in boxing is not begrudged any assignment by me, it is just a matter of record and I wish him the best at all times.
52. The use of Neuman and Smoger is highly questionable based on the grossly overweight condition of Neuman and the highly questionable background of Smoger which has been publicized greatly and can be provided in court. Neuman’s recent handling of the John Ruiz V Andrew Golota card, on HBO pay per view November 13, 2004 Saturday was widely criticized as he failed to rule a legitimate knockdown, failed to penalize a fighter for hitting the other on the deck, counted over a fallen fighter who was pushed to the canvas, and constantly broke the fighters prematurely preventing any inside fighting. He appeared in the ring grossly out of shape, at least 80 lbs overweight and could hardly get out of the way of the fighters yet as a NJ referee was used in the main event because of political connections and reciprocal favors as was the other out of State referee Mike Ortega, from Connecticut.
53. The NYSAC instead of giving me my boxing life back and letting me referee, used Ken Zimmer, a nice man, but very inept referee, who was responsible for the mini riot at the Roy Jones Jr V Merqui Sosa fight in which the film of the fight showed clearly the consistent mistakes in judgment made by this referee who has a history of poor performances. They used him in a televised ESPN show in Poughkeepsie, NY in the summer of 2004, bringing him him from upstate NY rather than give me an assignment where I live and teach boxing in Poughkeepsie-Hyde Park NY.
54. The damage to my reputation by this ongoing course of illegal conduct by the NYSAC under the color of law, has caused great anguish, embarrassment and damages to me as a teacher in Poughkeepsie, where in the very place I was awarded a lifetime Civil Rights Achievement Award and where I teach boxing, I have no explanation to give to my students, friends and family why I cannot referee a boxing show where I work and live.
I will actively seek damages for the 7 years I have been blackballed with no legitimate explanation given to me for taking my life’s work away from me under the most nefarious of circumstances and scandals the NYSAC has been involved in.
55. Main events are given to Randy Neuman from NJ, who I respect as a former fighter, but is grossly out of shape by being overweight by 80 pounds and is a friend of Wayne Kelly, Ron Scott Stevens’ personal friend. The films of the referees they have chosen to officiate and their performances are a matter of record.
56. Kelly, another nice man and in my opinion a good referee, is unfortunately hearing impaired and was the referee in the ring during the bribe attempt in the Jesse Fergusen V Ray Mercer fight in which an indictment was handed down. Kelly testified he “Could not hear the bribe offer.” He also was written up in a boxing magazine for giving an 8 count, not to the fallen fighter, but to the fighter who scored the knockdown as Kelly became confused. We all make mistakes and my point is that these referees have made big mistakes but are still being licensed and used in big televised fights.
57. There are always misinformed fans who criticize referees for stopping fights tooearly, and too late and I have always used the films of the fights I have refereed to show the reason which justified my actions, which is always the safety of the fighter.
No fighter has ever been injured severely with me as the referee. I have always kept an open mind and was always willing to help others and pass on my knowledge and take direction from classes attended. The films we have of Mercante Jr and the other referees the Commission uses are beyond belief and are available to show a jury.
58. The blackballing of me and refusal to issue a license is coming from two factions within the NYSAC out of revenge. Chairman Steven’s friendship with former Commissioner Randy Gordon and the constant use of Stevens’ mutual friends not based on ability or performance and the present remnants of the Russo administration who control Stevens. and were fraught with scandals which were publicized and resulted in firings.
59. Ron Scott Stevens lives in Long Island and continually gives the main events to Mercante Junior, and Wayne Kelly from Long Island along with NJ referees like Steve Smoger, Randy Neuman and others whose horrible performances and objectionable backgrounds are available on film. Other referees being given work by the NYSAC have nowhere near my boxing background and some were given a license while mine was being illegally refused from 1998-2004.
60. On November 14, 2003 I faxed Commissioners Jerome Becker and left phone messages to inform him that I wanted them both to see the file I sent to the Commission on my behalf. I did the same to Commissioner Marc Cornstein. Both men were vilified in the NY Post as having no boxing knowledge and obtaining their jobs only through political cash donations. Both Commissioners failed to respond in writing or view the material sent separately to them, or respond in anyway to me before the Commission attorney told anyone not to speak with me.
61. When the Chairman was called by me to ask if they all viewed the tapes of my fights I sent them to evaluate my performances and read my background, Ron Scott Stevens stated to me on the phone on October 23, 2003, that they “Lost my file”, and the package I sent containing my background, fight films, $75 money order, another $50 money order, police certificates, newspaper articles etc,
After receiving it and acknowledging receipt of it on October 15, 2003.
62. On November 17, 2003, I received a letter from Hugo Spindola informing me that he “Made a mistake in telling me I could have a fair hearing.” No hearing was allowed for me to legally plead for my license because, he stated again at the 11th hour that “Only people with a license could have a hearing.” The viciousness of this ploy and the callous ruse it exudes makes a mockery of the NYSAC being a State Agency, as it has taken it’s noble legacy and digressed into a bias social club.
63. The following was also pointed out to Chairman Stevens and Hugo Spindola in writing and in person as well as the other commissioners. That the former Executive Director Tony Russo who was fired from his position and is mentioned extensively in the various scandals at the Commission, notably the falsification of the weigh in for Arturo Gatti versus Joey Gamache fight at Madison Square Garden. Gatti was permitted by Russo as a favor to Gatti’s promoter to weigh in 20 pounds over the agreed weight. Russo faked the weigh in and was caught, yet let the farce proceed. Gamache was almost killed by the heavier fighter and received brain damage and had to retire from boxing and filed a lawsuit V the NYSAC.
64. It is deliberately and illegally orchestrated under the color of law that I not be allowed to attend the mandated seminar so that if I win a court order for my license to be restored, that I be prevented from working in 2005 because I did not attend the seminar.
65. The NYSAC, as it exists now and is classified as such in all the exhibits we are prepared to put into evidence by the press, has digressed into a biased social club for the sole purpose of punishing anyone who exercises their first amendment rights to speak out against the blatant favoritism and corruption therein, which has resulted in fighter’s deaths and massive ring injuries.
66. I have been singled out and denied my license for personal reasons couched in revenge. I had uncovered an unethical attempt to take away my assignment as the referee of the Oscar DeLahoya V Jesse James Leija fight held in December of 1995 as the main event in the HBO telecast. The corner man of Jesse James Leija Richard Giachetti admitted on tape which was provided to the Manhattan District Attorney that this plumb assignment was attempted to be taken away from me by having the friends of Arthur Mercante Jr approach him and the other corner man Lester Bedford to stage a false protest against me as the referee in order to give the assignment to “Mercante’s kid.”(Mercante Jr.)
67. The then Executive Director Howard Albert a lifelong friend of the Mercante’s was fired the following week. Tony Russo was given the tape recordings of this attempt to fix the officials in the most unethical preplanned smear campaign. He refused (also on tape) to do anything about it, while the wife of Floyd Patterson admitted he was making “Deals” for himself. This was also provided on tape to the District Attorney and the then Commission.
68. Russo’s scandals are now a matter of record, but his friends Ralph Petrillo, the present NYSAC Director of Boxing, and Mike Pascale the former Deputy Commissioner who sat next to Ron Scott Stevens as mentioned above in a reserved for officials section, appear to be influential among others for preventing my license renewal. Also, Marc Cornstein and Jerome Becker, both of whom were seen by me personally, are associated closely with Russo. Ron Scott Stevens either has no power in the Commission whatsoever or is according to him responsible for denying me a license in 2003 while stating they have too many guys. Now it is for the “Good of boxing”, while using a State Agency under the color of law to prevent me from continuing as a main event referee.
69. My performance as a referee is documented on film with interviews with boxing hall of fame greats and boxing experts like Angelo Dundee, Joe Frazier, Muhammad Ali, Hall of Fame Director Ed Brophy, Harold Ledderman, George Chuvalo, ESPN’s Brian Kenny and Al Bernstein and many others.
70. My character is exemplary as a winner of a lifetime civil rights achievement award, community service awards, a Marist College Teacher, Boxing Awards and the sole misdemeanor conviction is the only one in my entire life, and the very lawyer who represented me during that trial was found guilty of professional misconduct in not representing me properly and failing to bring up the connection between Russo’s friend who participated in tampering with the jury, the judge was disbarred for dishonesty and theft and that is the only conviction in my life, for throwing one punch against three men who attacked me. The connection to NYSAC members in these cases is written in stone, they do not dare to use that reason for the denial of my license, nor have they ever.
71. We ask these people whose background in boxing has been widely criticized as non existent to show cause why my license has been denied “For the good of boxing,” and I have been prevented from working main events and even being licensed while they use people who have killed fighters in the ring through their negligence, referee in grossly out of shape condition, and are political friends of the Chairman.
72. It should be noted that the NYSAC recently licensed NJ resident Steve Smoger, who was vilified in the NJ Star Ledger, and various other papers (Exhibits on request), as having been found guilty of the most heinous judicial misconduct, barred for life from ever becoming a judge again and found by a panel of NJ deciding Judges as being a “Dishonest person.” Smoger was previously denied his license in New York, Connecticut and NJ, yet despite the legal findings against him specifically designating him as dishonest he was not only re-licensed by the NYSAC but given the Main Event of Felix Trinidad V Ricardo Mayora in Madison Square Garden, televised on HBO. There were other referees who spoke Spanish that could have been used, like Mike Ortega and Sam Viruet, yet despite Smoger’s ban from boxing he was given this chance by the NYSAC.
73. *******The NYSAC also did not hold against Smoger his much publicized practice of relentless, self-serving campaigns of soliciting assignments from promoters which was addressed on the internet by various boxing writers including Pedro Fernandez on his website.
74. They have ignored my correspondence for years, have told me they had too many guys while hiring other people and ignoring my requests, and have taken away my life’s work and accomplishments in boxing by preventing my career from continuing because I spoke out against them and their friends while licensing and assigning referees with the most questionable records and underpinnings in boxing.
75. Finally, while attending the referee seminar in 2003, at the NYSAC offices, I was called into the Chairman’s office with Ron Scott Stevens, Hugo Spindola and Robert Limrick present. In a meeting documented by me, I was asked if I would be loyal to the Commission which I said I would, I was told by Stevens that I was “Only a sparring partner for great fighters, not a pro with Stevens himself never even having been a fighter, I took the abuse and remained polite, I told him I was a winning fighter with a much publicized knockout record as opposed to one former pro he had on the staff who had 2 fights and lost them both. Then I was told that there were other people there at the Commission who did not want me back, and they would have to approve.
I told him it was a State Agency and not a social club and that violated my rights of due process and the right to work.
76. The whole meeting was designed to humiliate me and test me out as a ruse.
Hugo Spindola incredibly said, “If you punched those men who attacked you, maybe we would be afraid you would hit someone in the ring if they hit you.” Everyone laughed at the absurdity of his remark and the ridiculous and incredible ploy of comparing that situation. They later denied my license in a documented phone conversation as previously described in which the Chairman said they had “Too many guys and lost my file they had signed for.”
77.* * * * Additionally, the symbiotic relationship with the NYSAC and the NJ State Athletic Control Board is also instrumental in the agreed blackballing of me as a referee. Larry Hazzard Senior the Chairmain of the NJSACB, has refused my letters, phone calls and any correspondence since 1997 until now. Despite numerous recent calls in which his secretary has promised on no less than 5 occasions to mail me an application for my referee license renewal, claiming it had been mailed out to me in May 2005. Despite giving this woman named “Kathy” my present address over 4 times, the Post Office has confirmed that no correspondence has been delivered here from the NJSACB.
78. Larry Hazzard Senior sued the NJ State Attorney General’s Office for usurping his authority. I contacted Mr. William Brown of the NJ State Attorney General’s Office who told me no one can help me, but to apply for my license again. When I told them no one would send me the application, they still did nothing to intercede.
78.* * * * I provided the NY Attorney General’s Office in the past with information of what was being done to me by seeing Elliot Spitzer in person in Newburgh NY and handing him a file. No one ever contacted me again. It was later learned that Mary Kavaney who is a Supervisor with Spitzer’s Office, had gone out socially with disbarred Judge Tim Tamsen and according to legal personnel who operate in Newburgh, had a personal and private relationship with the Judge.
80. I was later informed by my attorney Mike DeLisa, that the NYSAC’s attorney Hugo Spindola, is not being allowed to represent the NYSAC on this case. It is now incumbent upon the NY Attorney General’s Office to defend the very people who have been blackballing me under the color of law. Upon Mike DeLisa speaking to Assistant Attorney General Eugene Benger, who admitted he knew nothing of this case but is handling it, a “Superior” in his office took over and wanted to pursue it for the NYSAC to help them. They are in the NY Office at 212-416-6276. I cannot believe that Elliot Spitzer knows fully of what the NYSAC has done, and if he does, how could he allow them to do this.
The Court's Decision:
Court's Decision PDF File (http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/news/archives/NYSAC_COURT_DECISION.pdf)
Juan C Ayllon
08-13-2005, 11:32 AM
Ron's Petition PDF Link (http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/news/archives/RonsPetition.pdf)
Juan C Ayllon
08-13-2005, 02:37 PM
Mike DeLisa's Affimation PDF Link (http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/news/archives/Mike_DeLisa_s_Affirmation__June_21__2005.pdf)
08-13-2005, 04:16 PM
Please look at #'s 27, 28 & 29 on my affidavit.
The comments refered to by the NYSAC are on tape.
They cannot deny they said that as the reasons for denying a renewal of my license.
They cannot make up any other bullshit excuse now either. They have used a NY State Agency as their personal Social Club.
08-15-2005, 03:35 AM
How did joey archer beat rubin carter? what is your opinion of joey archer?
08-15-2005, 11:50 AM
As a kid I was in awe of Archer even though he was not a puncher and a puncher is what I was and always wanted to be.
I met him twice, once at the Tiger V Carter fight. He was sitting 3 guys down from me and by fight time he switched seats to sit next to me we were talking such good boxing together. He saw me another time in the Garden basement when I was boxing with Tiger and we talked briefly.
I know fighters and this guy was class A #1, confident, classy image outside the ring, snazzy NY style dresser,
and looked like he came out of a Hollywood casting office as a fighter they would choose to play a fighter.
Joey was to me taller than the 5'8" they had him listed as unless my young eyes grew him a couple of inches. He seemed to me to be almost 5'10" and although he pissed off a lot of hardcore fans and writers for getting some close "Housefighter" decisions over Mims, Rodriguez, Tiger and Carter, there are many who make a strong case for him shading Carter and Tiger legit but not the other two.
Joey was a classic boxer, right glove open catching shots, parrying punches and coutering with his well timed double and triple jabs, straight piston like shots and sometimes a paw-shap over the glove of his opponent.
He would come into the ring fresh as a daisy, dark hair parted on the side, slicked back, his nose that of a seasoned pro, high cheek bones, no fat, always high black boxing shoes, and sparkling fresh white as snow high boxing socks. His long black laces on his blackshoes were tied over in a bow that had the laces hanging loose and they would fly as he stepped like a dancer around the big bangers.
He would take shots to the head and body that would drop a 600lb Gorilla and not even flinch in the toughest mold that ever came out of Valhalla they day they made Joey Giardello's chin and heart, they made Joey Archer too.
He had zero fear of the guys in the top 10 at the time, Carter, Archer, Gonzalez, Griffith, Mims and Joey did what Billy Graham told him to do one day when they introduced Graham at the Carter fight.
He said, "Your left hand is the brush, your right hand holds the paint, do a paint job on this guy."
That's what Joey did, he would step around you, painting your face red with snappy jabs, stay a half step ahead of the plodders, and drop right hands in there and damn if I did not see the Tiger walk right into one which landed on the point of his chin and stagger him when Carter, Hank and Fernandez could not.
Archer had it in spades and used it successfully.
His luck ran out when boxer-puncher Emile Griffith beat him at his own game and had a bit more muslce and conditioning to make it work those two nights.
I was in awe of him because of his ability to take shots, show no fear, and his 100% confidence, inner toughness and charming smile and pro attitude.
He came from a fighting family who was mighty proud of him like his tough as nails brother Jimmy.
08-16-2005, 01:33 AM
I talked with Jimmy today and he said he and joey were doing fine. I know the NJ BHOF honored Jimmy this year, but no ones seen joey in a few years that I know of.
08-16-2005, 02:04 AM
Please tell Jimmy that I want to do a story on Joey like no one else can. I want to interview him in person if Jimmy can arrange it and be there too.
My e-mail is firstname.lastname@example.org
Tell him Carter, Tiger, Gonzalez and Griffith's sparring partner would do a special story on Joey if he wants.
08-16-2005, 07:44 AM
Ron, I just sent you an e-mail.
I hope you can talk jimmy into it, but i don't know of anyone thats seen joey in years so i don't know how he's doing.
08-16-2005, 07:45 AM
Joey Archer is being inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame in October in Commerce (LA), CA. I think I am going to be there and it will be a thrill to meet him.
08-16-2005, 04:15 PM
Ron---I was just curious if you have ever had any run in's with that prick Jim Grey? Also, I was reading through some 90s KO mags last night and came across a quote of yours following the Ruddock-Morrison bout, which was just a great line...."Tommy hits harder than a winter on wlefare." Classic!!!
08-16-2005, 05:06 PM
Thanks BD, that is an original quote from someone who knows, me. (Smile)
That fight was very exciting to referee and much behind the scenes pre fight underhanded stuff went on, and during the fight at ringside and afterward too.
That's boxing for you.
Tommy Morrison recently wrote me and wished me well and me the same for him. I feel the same way toward Razor too.
I love all these guys and admire them very much for their courage. I wish I was in there again protecting their rights.
08-16-2005, 07:43 PM
Hey Ron, is it truth Joe Louis Adair k.o Rubin ( Hurricane ) Carter in the gym back in 1963
08-16-2005, 07:54 PM
how are the boys doing, well I hope.
yes it is true and I was right there at 230 Market Street Newark, 3 flights up at Mooksie's Gym. I wrote all about it on the Zone awhile back and then the system crashed here and all my writings were lost.
Joe Louis Adair then a good friend of mine and our mutual trainer, George Branch who is seen in the picture with me in my TV fight posted on the Zone awhile back, where I scored the amateur record 6 second KO in NJ.
Joe Louis Adair was with me in the audience on my way to the ring.
Anyway Joe was out of Witchita Kansas and was some smooth left hooker with no fear. I watched him stop Holly Mims on a cut eye in the Elizabeth Armory.
Carter did not like Joe and for whatever reason got into his boxing togs while drunk out of his mind and Joe knocked his dick in the dirt for him. Laid him out cold.
He got up and Joe did it again. They did a story on it in the old Boxing Illustrated but they got the locatio wrong.
It happened in Neward at Mooksies as did many other bizzare things like stabbings, shootings and I once saw a heavyweight named Thurman Johnson get his fingers chopped off by a man named Mark Murray who was a trainer in the gym.
The cops even brought a young fighter into be questioned by the name of Larry Hazzard, who was also there besides me.
Joe was one of the first guys to wear white boxing shoes besides Kid Gavilan and Cassius Clay.
Nice hearing from you,
08-16-2005, 09:31 PM
Ron---I'm sure this has been asked and answered, but I missed it, so I was curious if you have ever considered writing a book about your life? It really sucks how you are being treated and I certainly hope that you can very soon be back in the ring. Have you ever considered contacting the HBO show "Real Sports?" Your story sounds very much like something that that program would jump at to tell.
08-16-2005, 11:04 PM
I appreciate that and yes it will be considered.
I never saw that program but will certainly look into it.
If I wrote the book it would be based on the highly unusual things I experienced as a uniformed police officer and later a Detective, my battles outside the ring with the KKK and crooked police who helped them and winning a lifetime civil rights achievement award, and of course the entire boxing background as a referee and fighter, and the legal battles in Federal courts I was lucky enough to win regarding these issues.
Thanks for your interest and support, much appreciated at this bad time.
08-17-2005, 01:58 AM
Juan C Ayllon
08-17-2005, 10:52 AM
Wouldn't you know it: I still had copies of these gems in my computer.
Here are a series of workout pieces put together by Ron and his son, Brett. They originally appeared at Ron's string before the original message board crashed.
INSTRUCTOR RON LIPTON
INSTRUCTOR BRETT LIPTON
written by Ron Lipton, Boxing Instructor, for his BOXING STUDENTS.
BODY BUILDING EXERCISES, HIGHER REP PRINCIPLE FOR SHAPING, SYMMETRY, MUSCLE ENDURANCE
VERY IMPORTANT! THIS IS NOT A SIZE BUILDING WORKOUT WHICH WOULD NECESSITATE HEAVIER WEIGHT AND LOWER REPS, BUT RATHER, AN OVERALL CONDITIONING WORKOUT. MALE STUDENTS WILL BECOME MUCH MORE MUSCULAR AND FEMALE STUDENTS WILL LOSE FAT AND IMPROVE OVERALL APPEARANCE. THIS WORKOUT IN THE GYM COMBINED WITH THE BOXING CLASS WILL MAKE YOU LOOK AND FEEL LIKE A CHAMPION.
PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING POINTS AND NOTES PRIOR TO STARTING YOUR SUGGESTED WORKOUT.
The gym workout is to be utilized and adjusted accordingly as per individual needs* combined with proper diet, rest, and an aerobic conditioning program geared to your present medical condition, lifestyle and other physical endeavors.
Train to your favorite music if you want, use a headset and get into it. Each rep and set is money in the bank and one step closer to a better you!
Train with deep concentration and focus on every second of what you are doing and warm up each muscle group with very low weights prior to start of new exercise. Really enjoy the workout!
Don't stretch when you are completely cold. Warm up and try to stretch the muscles you are working before and after each set if possible.
When changing exercises, you must do the first new set with light resistance, sending a message to that muscle that you will be calling upon it to extend and contract in a different plane of movement and at a different angle. THEN YOU CAN ADD WEIGHT IF SO DESIRED or ADD REPS WITH SAME WEIGHT.
Use little rest between sets Get your heartbeat up but do not strain yourself. You must work at your own pace...BUT DO THE REPS SLOWLY WITH FULL COMPLETE MOVEMENTS, DOING THE REP PROPERLY. Avoid chatting, socializing, losing focus or concentrating on what OTHERS are doing in the gym - this is your workout!
*See Coaches Ron or Brett Lipton for differences in compound movements as opposed to isolated exercises.
Juan C Ayllon
08-17-2005, 10:55 AM
To avoid the pitfalls of injury, elbow strain, pulled muscles, etc., see coach for training tips. E.G. Avoid doing any heavy isolated tricep exercises FIRST, such as tricep bar or rope press downs, and or tricep extensions, but rather do light dumbbell warm-ups for the biceps first when training arms.
Try supinating light dumbbell curls either sitting or standing to warm up the elbow joint sufficiently first and help avoid the elbow twinge which comes with straining the tendons and ligaments in isolated movements. Always start your tricep workout well warmed up and with light press downs - gorging the area with blood - before going heavier in any isolated movement.
To help avoid knee injury while doing legs, start off with higher rep leg extensions which warm up the knee joint first BEFORE doing leg presses, squats or heavy movements.
Before doing squats, it also helps to warm up FIRST with some abdominal crunches and then SECOND with a set of 12 hyper extensions AFTER warming up and stretching.
The hyper extensions warm up the lumbar area of the lower back and this front & back warm up of the midsection and lower back enable you to lock in the mid-section which stabilizes you better for squats. See the Boxing coach for proper form, while utilizing continuous tension principle.
Do your workout 2-3 days per week-TUES & THURS OR MON & WED, or FRIDAY & SUNDAY - however you want to work it - but get at least ONE DAY REST OR MORE IN-BETWEEN. Do something for abs every day, and try to walk in the park each day for the fresh air.
WATCH WHAT YOU EAT EVERY DAY. If you want to lose weight, eat smaller portions, train and eat instinctively.
Avoid starches, sugars, junk foods.
Minimize red meat and dairy products. GOOD SOURCES OF PROTEIN ARE: Egg whites, tuna, turkey and lean chicken.
Eat different fresh vegetables and fruits DAILY. Use romaine lettuce, spinach, and kale instead of iceberg lettuce because they contain more vitamins and minerals.
DRINK FRESH COLD WATER EVERY DAY. It is the best thirst quencher.
Get a Jack Lalane or comparable power juicer for melon, carrot, cucumber, celery, apple, parsley juices or any combination of vegetables or fruits.
Juan C Ayllon
08-17-2005, 10:56 AM
SEE BOXING INSTRUCTORS ON PROPER FORM FOR DOING THESE EXERCISES CORRECTLY IN THE GYM TO HELP MINIMIZE RISK OF INJURY.
ALWAYS KEEP YOUR MID-SECTION TIGHT, FLEX IT, USE IT.
WIDE GRIP LAT PULL-DOWNS-1ST SET MINIMUM 20 REPS,
MAXIMUM 35 REPS. 2ND SET-20-35 REPS.
SEATED CABLE ROWS-WIDE GRIP-1ST SET 20-35 REPS. 2ND SET-CHANGE GRIP TO OTHER HANDLE, CLOSE GRIP 20-35 REPS. ROW TO MIDSECTION, CONTRACT SCAPULA, EXTEND WITH A STRETCH, KNEES BENT, FEET FIRM ON PLATFORM.
IN BOXING GYM-T-BAR ROWS, 2 SETS OF 20-35 REPS. USE YOUR ARMS AS HOOKS. CONTRACT YOUR SCAPULA-SHOULDER BLADES, MAKE SURE YOU USE YOUR BACK, NOT ONLY ARMS.
CHOOSE 3 EXERCISES PER WORKOUT FOR CHEST.
IN THE BOXING GYM-HIGH CABLE CROSSOVERS-2 SETS 20-35 REPS. USE PROPER FORM. SEE COACH FOR PROPER FORM
INCLINE DUMBBELL PRESSES-2 SETS 20 REPS. 2ND SET, IF POSSIBLE, ADD WEIGHT.
INCLINE DUMBBELL FLYS-2 SETS 15 REPS.
FLAT BENCH DUMBBELL PULLOVERS-2 SETS 15 REPS
FLAT BENCH PRESS-3 SETS, 1 SET 20 REPS, 2ND SET 15 REPS, 3RD SET 12 REPS. THIS IS FOR BOXING TRAINING NOT MR. OLYMPIA CONTEST.
PUSHUP BARS, FEET ELEVATED ON BENCH, KNUCKLES FACING OUTWARD, ARMS CLOSE TO BODY-2 SETS 15 REPS. KNUCKLES FACING FORWARD 2 SETS 15 REPS, THIS EMULATES BENCH PRESS FOR PECS.
TO HIT THE AREA KNOWN AS PEC-DELT TIE IN-DO DIPS-2 SETS 15 REPS. THIS MOVEMENT CAN BE DUPLICATED WITH HIGH CABLE STATION EXERCISES, GRABBING THE STRAPS AND KEEPING ARMS CLOSE TO BODY EMULATING THE DIPPING EXERCISE, KNUCKLES FACING OUTWARD.
Juan C Ayllon
08-17-2005, 10:59 AM
SEATED MILITARY DUMBBELL PRESSES: 2 SETS.
1ST SET 15-20 REPS, 2ND SET 15-20 REPS ALSO. USE GOOD FORM, GET THAT BLOOD INTO THE AREA.
IMMEDIATELY COMBINE (SUPERSET) THIS WITH: LATERAL DUMBBELL RAISES-2 SETS 15 REPS SEE COACH FOR PROPER FORM
THEN GO TO POSTERIOR DELT EXERCISE-BENT OVER DUMBBELL LATERALS-2 SETS 15 REPS.
CABLE LATERALS AT CABLE STATION. ADJUST HANDLE FOR LOWER LEVEL. 2 SETS OF 12-15 REPS FOR EACH SHOULDER.
DO 2 EXERCISES PER BODY PART. 6 SETS TOTAL FOR BICEPS.
SEATED OR STANDING DUMBBELL CURLS
2 SETS SUPINATING HAND, CONTINUOUS TENSION ON BICEPS, NO DEAD SPOTS, SEE COACH. 15-20 REPS TO THOROUGHLY WARM UP. THEN 2 SETS PALMS FACING OUTWARD, STRICT CURL. 15-20 REPS.
PREACHER BENCH CURLS WITH TWO DUMBBELLS.
2 SETS 15 REPS, USE GOOD FORM, USE PARTNER TO HELP WITH WEIGHTS. OR STANDING STRICT BARBELL CURL WITH STRAIGHT BAR OR CAMBERED CURL BAR. 2 SETS 15 REPS, THEN 12 REPS. CAN SUBSTITUTE THIS FOR STRICT STANDING DUMBBELL CURL.
TRICEP ROPE PULL-DOWNS-2 SETS 15-25 REPS
TRICEP ROPE EXTENSIONS-2 SETS 15-20 REPS. USE PROPER FORM, SEE COACH FOR PROPER FORM.
DUMBBELL TRICEP KICKBACKS-2 SETS OF 12-15 REPS. SEE COACH FOR PROPERFORM
YOU CAN ALSO SUPPLEMENT WITH PUSHUP BARS. ELEVATE YOUR FEET, KNUCKLES OUT, ARMS CLOSE FOR TRICEP LATERAL HEAD. THIS IS A COMPOUND MOVEMENT EXERCISE AND ALSO HITS PECS AND FRONTAL DELTS.
ALSO FOR TRICEPS - CLOSE GRIP BENCH PRESSES-15-25 REPS 2 SETS. THIS HITS LATERAL HEAD OF TRICEP. GRIP APPROX. 6" APART.
Juan C Ayllon
08-17-2005, 11:03 AM
LEG EXTENSIONS: 2 SETS 15-25 REPS LEG CURLS: 2 SETS 15-20 REPS LEG PRESSES-20-25 REPS 2 SET
FULL SQUATS: USE A WEIGHT BELT AND PROPER FORM. MAKE SURE YOU ARE THOROUGHLY WARMED UP WITH THE BAR RESTING ON UPPER BACK, NOT YOUR NECK!!!
USE A TOWEL, JACKET FOR CUSHION. 3 SETS-HOLD YOUR STOMACH MUSCLES TIGHT TO SUPPORT MOVEMENT. KNEES SHOULD FLOAT OVER YOUR TOES, BACK STRAIGHT, EYES LOOKING TOWARD CEILING. USE THOSE BUTTOCK MUSCLES TO DRIVE WEIGHT UP, ALONG WITH YOUR QUADS. DO A SMOOTH REP WITH CONTINUOUS TENSION. DO NOT LOCK KNEES AT TOP OF MOVEMENT. BREATHE NATURALLY - BREATH DEEPLY THROUGH YOUR NOSE ON THE WAY DOWN AND EXHALE THROUGH YOUR MOUTH ON THE TOUGHER PART OF EXERCISE ON THE WAY UP.
STANDING CALF MACHINE AFTER ALL LEG WORK IS DONE. THIS IS LOCATED ON THE UPPER LEVEL OF MARIST GYM. 3 SETS OF 20 REPS. MAKE IT TOUGH AND DROP THAT HEEL ALL THE WAY DOWN UNTIL YOU FEEL IT BITE DEEP INTO THE CALF MUSCLE. GO ALL THE WAY UP LIKE A BALLERINA, SQUEEZE AT THE TOP AND THEN DROP DOWN AGAIN. GET A RHYTHM GOING.
SEATED CALF MACHINE FOR SOLEUS MUSCLE IN BACK OF CALF. 2 SETS OF 15 REPS.
DO ABS EVERY DAY. DO THE BOXING WORKOUT AS WE DO IN CLASS -FLOOR WORK.
IN GYM, INCLINE CRUNCHES WITH CABLE - 2 SETS 20 REPS.
2 SETS ROPE CRUNCHES ON KNEES, 20-30 REPS, SEE COACH FOR PROPER FORM
Juan C Ayllon
08-17-2005, 02:11 PM
LEG RAISES: GO TO CHIN BAR, HANG FROM STRAPS. DO 2 SETS 12 REPS EACH OF KNEE UPS OR STIFF LEGGED LEG RAISES FOR THOSE LOWER ABS. GET RID OF THAT LOWER BELLY DOUBLE BUBBLE FLAB WITH THIS EXERCISE. or
LAY ON BACK. PULL KNEES INTO CHEST, LIKE I SHOW YOU IN CLASS, OR DO PILATI EXERCISES, BUT MOVE THOSE KNEES, DRAWING THEM UP TO MID-SECTION.
30-45 MINUTES PER DAY: TREAD MILL, JOGGING, ROPE JUMPING OR MACHINE OF YOUR CHOICE IN THE GYM. WALK IN THE BEAUTIFUL PARKS UP HERE IN DUTCHESS, UPHILL IF POSSIBLE, TAKE A PET, BUT GET OUTSIDE.
VITAMINS & SUPPLEMENTS:
BEST VITAMIN SUPPLEMENTS, OR SHOULD I SAY ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY IF TAKING SUPPLEMENTS AT ALL:
VITAMIN C, ESTER C-STAYS IN TISSUE LONGER. 500MG.
VITAMIN E-400 I.U. BUT MUST SAY "MIXED TOCEPHEROLS WITH GAMMA!!!!
B-COMPLEX, AT LEAST 50 MG.
MALES-CHEALTED ZINC 30-50MG.
CALCIUM, MAGNESIUM, VITAMIN D COMBO.
THINK POSITIVE, NO NEGATIVE THOUGHTS. PICTURE THE WAY YOU WANT TO LOOK AND MAKE IT HAPPEN. GET BUSY AND DO IT! ONE DAY AT A TIME.
IF YOU ARE DEPRESSED, WORK OUT! IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A KILLER WORKOUT, BUT WORK OUT. TRICK YOURSELF INTO THE GYM, PROMISE YOURSELF YOU WELL DO 10 MINUTES, AND THAT WELL GET YOU INTO THE GYM. THEN THE 10 MINUTES WILL TURN INTO 30!
IF YOU EAT BAD FOOD, WORK IT OFF BY WALKING, AEROBICS AND ABDOMINAL WORK.
RECENT STUDIES ON CNN, SHOW THAT 6.5-7.5 HOURS OF SLEEP IS THE MOST BENEFICIAL AND HEALTHY. MORE IS NOT BETTER AND LESS IS JUST AS BAD.
BEST OF LUCK.
RON & BRETT LIPTON
08-22-2005, 07:17 PM
To those of you who want to see the specifics of the Affidavit, it is on page 4 of this thread.
08-22-2005, 09:48 PM
I must of missed the beer refreshment exercises. That's OK, I'll just grab another and go through the regimen again.
Congrats to Ron on a fine regimen. Maybe he could become a personal trainer for some of the NY media and sports stars.
08-22-2005, 11:16 PM
After that workout it is definitely Miller time Robert.
First one's on me.
08-23-2005, 09:41 PM
Joey Archer will not be at the hall of fame induction ceremony.
08-23-2005, 10:24 PM
I figured that, as no one has seen anything about Joey for many years, something is terribly wrong here as in Mrs. Bates in the fruit cellar wrong, I hope to God I'm wrong but either Joey is so sick they will not let anyone see him, which is wrong, or God knows what.
Not one iota of information comes from the brother. Very scary, very strange.
I would love to do a story on Joey and hope someone can find out where he is and get the truth about this great fighter.
08-27-2005, 06:22 PM
You have probably commented on this in the past, but given your knowledge on these fighters, I could not resist asking you about it. I was just reading the current issue of Ring magazine, and they had a flashback to 1962, where their fight of the year was Hank vs. Giardello. Did you witness that fight? What are your memories or recollections of it?
08-27-2005, 08:56 PM
Hi buddy, how are you doing?
Wow, what a memory and what a fight. I remember it was real cold outside the arena and people were talking about it afterward as the greatest war they had seen at the time. I felt Hank won the fight but don't tell Joey on me, one Judge had it a draw I believe and the other two by a point or so.
I saw shots that would kill an ox land on Giardello and he told me in person in Philly when I testified for him in his lawsuit V the Movie Hurricane a couple of years ago that Hank was absolutely the hardest puncher he ever faced and he faced Tiger, Fullmer, Carter and Durando among other bangers.
Joey as usual would tie him up, turn him, jab feint, jab again, sneak a right to the head, sneak a left hook to the belly, but Hank was none stop in beating a steady wild swinging bunch of leather on Joey raising welts on his body and sending the water and sweat and blood flying with shots, while he growled as he threw them.
They were just helacious punches and if you saw Tiger V Hank, it was those kind of shots, and I thought he really hurt Joey, who never admits he was ever hurt, but never goes down or even staggers. Hank was a wildman in the fight and kept coming forward to destroy and keep punching.
He was the winner over Joey in his hometown of Detroit about 6 months earlier and Joey wanted to get it back.
It was held in the same place as when Joey fought Carter, in the Convention Center in Philly. I always made it a point to watch Hank fight as he was one of my favorites and I got to talk to him a few times and liked him very much. I also saw him fight Johnny Person and several others in person
He was one cool guy to me and he really reminded me of a sharp classy Ray Robinson kind of confidence. He was so strong and durable when he was lighter at middleweight (he fought welter too) I hated to see him put on weight and tarnish his image.
He had a good sense of humor and would talk to the fans after the fight. His real name was Joe Harrison and he worked in the Detroit Zoo on the side. He later became a Muslim and was known as Jusuf Salaam.
Rocky Alkazoff knew him too, and I bet has some great stories about Hank. I hope Rock shares a few with us here.
Best to you buddy,
08-27-2005, 08:59 PM
Sorry I misspelled PERSOL
09-04-2005, 09:12 PM
It is very hard for a fan like me that lived through and enjoyed the great matchups on the Gillete Calvalcade of Sports, and the tough matchmaking which was the signature of Teddy Brenner in the old MSG, to see how some of these guys in my wildest dreams get a fight on tv and into your living room.
To see on the last live show from Arkansas a fighter like that heavyweight Manley, with his breasts flopping in a fight that would not be acceptable in the Golden Gloves in NJ or NY is really the state of boxing today.
I believe for ANYONE to get onto tv ANYTIME in a fight they have to be good enough to be there and look the part of a fighter. If not DON'T put them on at all on national television.
I really feel that the fighters listed in the top 100 in the new Ring magazine, and the fighters in the top 10 in the world are
not well seasoned or could stand up to the fighters in the 60's when you really had to pay your dues to get a shot on tv.
Oh well, I am getting old I guess.
09-05-2005, 03:09 AM
I saw Manly fight, perhaps in the same scuffle you were talking about. What's really sad to me is that he actually defeated his much better conditioned opponent.
The heavyweights are just awful and it's at the point where it's nigh unbearable. I just hope Peter-Klitschko is a real barnburner while it lasts.
09-05-2005, 10:12 AM
I just looked at the Ring Ratings and tried to be really honest with myself as to what fighters in all the pages even interested me a little bit.
The only names I came up with which would even interest me a little bit were: Samuel Peter, Joe Calzaghe, Jeff Lacy, Jermain Taylor, Hopkins, Winky, Judah, Hatton, Mayweather, Corrales, Castillo, Juan Diaz, Barrera, and Morales.
Are there many other good fighters? Yes.
Do I always watch the ESPN fights, yes. But even the above names are so limited as to really exciting matchups that pique the interest of the average Joe, you see what I am saying here.
Tyson or Ali could fight anyone and people would come to see it. It is getting to be a big yawn and that for me is very sad.
09-05-2005, 10:13 AM
I agree one hundred percent with Ron here.
There are some good kids out there; but none to set the world on fire.
I think this has a lot to do with the trainers out there as well.
There are some fairly competent guys as far as getting a fighter into condition goes; but none I would classify as a Great Trainer and Teacher in the Futch, Blackburn, Goldman, or Arcel mode.
None come even close.
The talent pool at the training level has dried up for the most part as far as developing a Great Fighter goes.
09-05-2005, 12:18 PM
don't expect too much...i have not seen a thing in little klit that would lead me to believe he can escape the 1st round against such a thunderous puncher as peter... amazed that this fight was taken by the klit camp.
09-05-2005, 12:36 PM
There are still good sharp fighters out there but not many to me. Nothing to make me excited like a division full of talent and great matchups. I think to myself sometime that right now Boxing is in one of the most pitiful states it has been in years.
When you lose a guy like me and the zone fans' interest, they had better start finding some exciting talent to save the game but quick. The general public needs a Joe Louis, Dempsey, Tyson, Carlos Ortiz, Canzoneri,
Gavilan, Bob Foster, Moore etc but quick, or goodbye big fights.
When I saw that guy Carlos Maussa win a "World title" e.g., when I look at the whole pathetic heavyweight division, the real lack of excitement in the light heavy division full of retreads, nothing exciting in Super middle, the middleweight with only Taylor v Hopkins for any interest, Jr Middleweights-sooo boring,
Jr. Welter- a few good matches for Hatton, Lightweights-some good matches there too, Jr lightweights-same guys over and over, with not one big exciting name, in the whole lot, not one big dynamic puncher except Samuel Peter, who is a fat guy with heavy hands or is going to get fatter and fatter like Tua did.
Man I am telling you pick up a Ring Magazine and look at the ratings I don't get that thump in my mind like I did when I picked up a boxing magazine to read an old Boxing Illustrated with really great champs and great contenders stocked to the limit in each division.
Punchers and boxers galore.
Just absolutely terrible today. Still love boxing, always will, just telling you the truth. The worst EVER
09-05-2005, 04:04 PM
i remember jerry quarry talking about learning to fight one day. he said some guys taught him the basics and other guys helped get him in shape but that it was not until teddy bentham came along and taught him the tricks of the trade that he felt he was really learning something. those guys are all gone it would appear. teaching those tricks a lost art.
it has been slowly slipping away for sometime now. when i saw those clowns in mike tysons corner applying a water balloon to the swelling caused by buster douglas i knew we had turned a corner. these days we have main event fighters that have no idea what to do when they are hurt, guys not trained in how to fight backing up and fighters brought up way too quickly on the merits of punching power alone ala kermit cintron.
i remember jackie mccoy saying once that anytime eddie futch spoke, he listened. that is a skill in its self and one lacking in many of todays know it all trainers who toss a towel over their shoulders and hope their charge makes them look like a genius. that ain't training. i really don't know where it all goes from here. in other sports the techniques have become more scientific over the years. boxing seems to have gone backwards. when these young guys hear us talking this way they often think we are just over estimating the past but i really do remember the old trainers from L.A. gyms passing on the trade secrets to their charges and then seeing them improve with every effort. i don't know what is going on now but have seen very little improvement lately. IMO.
09-05-2005, 04:35 PM
Ron, Karl and Greg
Karl the key word in your post is " teacher's " we
just don't have any, yes there are a few but i can count
them on one hand , this new so call trainer's did't
spent years in the gyms learning the trade.
It's like Greg say they toss a towel over their shoulder
an now they are trainers, yes Ron it is sad , that why i stay away from the gyms now
09-05-2005, 06:04 PM
All you guys really know.
I have a tape Frank, where Carlos Ortiz calls into a live tv show where I am doing an interview and talks about when we were boxing together training for his title fights later in his career. Teddy Bentham was with us alone in this spartan training camp which used to be Madam Bey's and later became Ehasan's in Chatam NJ.
I trained with him day after day with just him leaning in over the ropes while Carlos and I punched each other bloody and swelling, day after day, round after round he taught me good.
Every trick there is
I can pass this stuff on but this referee blackballing shit has really got me down until Mike DeLisa can turn it around for me.
I also was trained day after day by Jimmy Wilde up in the same place when Carter had Jimmy taking care of all of us, and of course I was with Angelo Dundee who also called into that show for me the same night as Carlos did.
No one is like them except the guys they taught and we are getting old, worn out, and sad from the lack of respect in boxing for us anymore.
If I told a strong kid how to train and live clean all the time, they never listen, the boxing experts they have for commentators, trainers know nothing compared to others.
Look what Frank did with two of his own sons, one of which decked world champions. why isn't he on ESPN or me, to hear our opinion, it's a joke.
Even the kid who was kicked out of here was calling Paul Pender a piece of garbage and calling me filthy names and he was less than 20 yrs old, there is no real understanding or appreciation of great fighters, except it seems on the Zone here, where everyone from the original Davey Moore to Gilroy, McAvoy and Turpin is remembered the way they were.
09-05-2005, 08:37 PM
You know something guys i am from the other side of the world in UK but i agree 100 with what your saying. On the hand i suppose it could be because give or take 10 years we are all around the same age.
Also i to have to admit i cant even name you our present champions and top contenders in most of the divisions. I at one time loved the fight game but nowadays i find it so hard to keep interested. Somehow the excitement and magic that once existed for me sad to say seems to have gone.
Is it because there are so many other ways to make a living these days for the average man. Is it because the more talented young men turn to other sports. It also does not help when you see a welterweight in the ring with a guy who has obviously in realty a Middleweight.
One of the problems is i think is in out time fans could follow a fighter who maybe would lose one in every three fights but he did his best, gave it everything he had and gave us value for are hard earned cash. These days it seems the fighter has to have a winning record to keep any fans interested. The drawback of course is he never learns from these easy and carefully picked fights.
Some of the old time greats had losses on there records but because they went in with all styles each fight was a learning experience for them and they came out far better and experienced fighters for it. Even with our present knowledge of correct diets and modern physical training methods. If the right teachers are not around anymore all we can turn out is well trained robot zombies who cant even think for themselves when in the ring.
On a last not take a guy like Charley Burley who most modern fans have probably never heard of who never got the chance to win a world title and who even Archie Moore admitted gave him a boxing lesson. Can you imagine just how many titles in this day and age Burley would have held. These sort of men are long gone now and craftsmen like him are now just a thing of the past.
Boxing and the fight game has changed and never will be the same in my humble opinion sad to say.
09-05-2005, 08:40 PM
Well said Danny.
Charley Burley would eat em alive today.
09-05-2005, 09:20 PM
I go back over 55 years of watching an been in the game of boxing, an i'm not liveing in the past.
But fighter nowday are not what they used to be when i was a young man , it's been years since i seen a fighter block a jab an counter over the block jab you just don't see that anymore , it all go back to the lack of good teaching
09-06-2005, 05:19 AM
It's amazing that you said that Frank, that is one of the first things I teach in my boxing class.
09-06-2005, 06:57 AM
you been around , i bet lots of those guys don't know what we are talking about
09-06-2005, 03:23 PM
"i bet lots of these guys dont know what were talking about"
Yeah, we're all uninformed or stupid.
09-06-2005, 03:24 PM
Hey J Slade
I was't talking about the guys on the ZONE , i was talking about the so-call trainer's out there in the gyms, but if you think you fit in that group so be it
09-07-2005, 04:07 AM
"but if you think you fit in that group so be it."
Since you're the one whose defining that 'group' I wouldn't know where I would fit into said group. Because it's obviously just a matter of your perception.
09-07-2005, 05:00 AM
Lets keep this strictly boxing, especially on my thread please.
I think he was talking about that many guys in the gym would not know who Teddy Bentham was etc.
Juan C Ayllon
09-14-2005, 02:46 AM
I know this is a little off-topic, but Ron, you just have to read my interview with Johnny Tapia. Specifically, some of his observations about Duran, Arguello, Ali, Robinson and Leonard are something else. Ditto for how he expresses himself when describing his love of boxing.
Karl, I think you'll get a kick out of it, too!
Here's the link:
<a href="http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/news/archives/00001205.htm" target="_new">Johnny Tapia Interview</a>
09-14-2005, 12:43 PM
thank you Juan,
it was a very good interview and Tapia has sure been to hell and back. I wish he would end the ring career soon before he gets brain damage though as his best days in that ring were when he was younger and living clean.
It is not going to do him any good to continue to take punches to the head and body at 38.
His observations on Duran especially are accurate in that Duran was never hit a solid shot on the jaw too much in his career without negating it by twisting and turning his head and body. I always noticed that about him.
The few times he was hit clean under the chin (DeJesus) down he went, or from the side on the jaw (Hearns) he was made of the same stuff as every other human.
In his 15 rounds with Hagler I did not see one solid power punch land on his chin.
Good interview and we all wish Johnny the best for his family, he is one brave fighter.
Juan C Ayllon
09-14-2005, 08:41 PM
I thought you'd enjoy that. Thanks!
I'll be reporting on his fight at the Aragon Ballroom this Friday. In a way, it feels like I'll be watching just a little bit of boxing history, as I take in this throwback fighter's efforts to position himself for one more title.
09-15-2005, 12:12 AM
I liked that, Juan.
Kid would be hard to follow by a non-historian or boxer in some circumstances, but I got it.
I wish he would retire personally as he has nothing left to prove as he has been to the mountaintop.
Sounds like he is gonna keep on going like most of them do that can't hear the final bell.
I wish nothing but the best for this Gladiator.
Juan C Ayllon
09-15-2005, 01:34 AM
I thought you would like that! I got a kick out of talking with Johnny Tapia. He seems like a terrific guy, not to mention a throwback type of fighter with interesting thoughts and observations about the sport of boxing.
Have a good day,
09-17-2005, 01:03 AM
Having seen of course your views on not quitting in the ring. With the greatest respect meant to you and knowing where you are coming from and believe it i am from the same school of thought, meaning *give it your best shot or dont bother at all*
The difference is, in a lot of cases i feel the modern fighter is i would say better informed and now more knowledgeable health wise then the average fighter from the past. I Would not insult you are any other expert on here by naming the former great fighters let alone the unknown to many ex fighters who gave as we wanted in each and every fight there all. Then either ended up in the gutter so to speak, or at the very least they became a shadow of there former self. All because they were to brave, and in a great many cases exploited by there own charges and of course perhaps not educated enough to know the effects and pain that later in life lay in store for them.
Before you jump on me and give me a good kicking the above as i said is maybe not how i would seen it in the past if the fighter in the ring with the odds against him was taking a real battering. But now with old age and knowing some so called fans, again i dont mean us on here but the so called fan who i sometimes feels does not give a shit for the fighters welfare. Yes, i have seen drink sodden so called fans who would not have the courage to step into the worst fighters boots screaming at and baying for blood. I have to admit my train of thought these days is perhaps a little bit more forgiving at seeing a fighter quit rather then take a bad battering.
With your experience i am sure you know the correct time to step in and stop a fight. I also know off course not all referees or officials are up to standard in this direction. Till a few years ago i took the same stand that i feel most people that love the fight game had, but with age comes a little more wisdom and now i am perhaps a bit more forgiving if a fighter does not as we say go out on his shield.
On the other hand Ron maybe i am just getting a little soft in my late years ;)
09-17-2005, 01:27 AM
No Danny you are 100% right.
None of the carnivores in the seats should ever forget what it is really like in there. I think the people who love boxing, are people who work hard, have tough lives and many wish they could fullfill their dreams and be that guy in the ring and box on.
With the protection we have today, all most of us ask of the highly paid athlete is give it an honest go in the tradition of the sport.
The two doctors at ringside, the modern gloves, the well trained referees, the enswell, the coagulents, the better and thicker mouthpieces-gumshoes that prevent concussion are all a plus.
I just did not like the way Kostza folded with one round to go appearingly not in great distress.
Each man knows his limit, lets just come into that ring in shape, give it a go, respect your opponent and yourself and maybe just once in awhile when you are making over
$100K for a fight, just think of the fans and put on a bloody show.
I NEVER want to see a lad get hurt in there and the flipside of the coin was the horrible commentary by Dr. Ferdie Pacheco when Gerald McClellan took a knee while his poor brain was pounded into jelly by Nigel, and Pacheco said nothing was wrong with him etc.
A cut eye could portend blindness if in the orbital bone area. Then things must halt and to be damned with the fans.
If it is an injury we all get after a pint too many in the parking lot outside the pub, after a few wallops, the fight outside the bar has to at least be as good as the one I'm paying for on pay per view, or I am going to be quite disappointed to say the least.
John Houseman said it all to James Caan in Rollerball the movie, he let him know that all the bosses, all the white collar boys dream of being in there and doing the job on someone for pay. If the fates give you the chance, the tools, the opportunity, then mate, one must win one for the Gipper.
The Gipper being in this case all the loyal boxing fans who support the sport, guys in hospitals who can't fight or even have their health, and all the rest of us who love the game.
I didn't like Liston quitting on his stool, I didn't like the smell of Ali v Liston II, Tyson V Seldon, or the way Kostza went out V Hatton. It it is a bad cut, but not in a bad place, box on.
09-17-2005, 01:55 AM
Ron called it perfectly.
It's not doing him any good taking "punches to the head AND body".
Tapia was paralyzed and destroyed by that side shot and I wish he would have retired as I stated before.
It pained me to watch that, Juan as I am down with a bad back at the moment.
This man has no business being in a boxing ring anymore, as much as I respect and admire him as a gladiator.
09-17-2005, 10:53 AM
hey ron its me mike depaula. i just wanted to say hi
09-17-2005, 11:01 AM
hey whats up?tell me why ring mag never rated my father frankie depaula?
09-17-2005, 12:03 PM
It's been a long time. Your father and I boxed quite a bit up at Ehsan's training camp in Chatam as you know during the time Carter used the place.
I remember the time Frankie gave Rubin the present of the two gun holster set of two Hi Standard .22 Western style revolvers with a decorative black two gun rig.
Anyway you know I was with your Dad at the Rag Doll in Union City at times, and in later years when I was a Detective in the Hudson County Prosecutor's Office in the 70's I visited your father at the Jersey City Medical Center, where he later passed away.
All of the things that were going on in those days may have impacted on the Ring Magazine's ratings which were ruled by Nat Fleischer and his staff who had their own ideas about things.
Your father's fight V the great Dick Tiger I can still see punch for punch in my mind in Sept 68 while I was in the Essex County Police Academy. I wrote about this fight in the great book by Adeyinka Makinde, Dick Tiger, The Life and Times of a Boxing Immortal, by Word Association Publishers.
Please get a copy of that book asap Mike.
Your Dad was one of the hardest punchers I have ever seen but as you know he liked to party too. There was a time however he was at the top of his game and as strong as a bull. On a given night he was on of those guys if he landed on the chin, anyone goes out but hard.
If he had dedicated himself more to training he could have been rated higher. There were some tough people in those days in his division but like all of us his toughest opponent was himself. I was like that too as we all are when we are young.
Frankie was one guy not to cross, and he was wild and unpredictable. He ran with a tough, unforgiving crowd, guys who would not accept any kind of insult from anyone. I arrested one of them in conjuction with your Dad's case on a warrant I served literally at the Chuck Wepner V Randy Neuman card in Jersey City.
Bad memories Mikey, it was a jungle then as it is now.
That's why I stay home a lot and away from people who sooner or later will make you fight. There out there in nightclubs, bars and on the job.
Your pops would take shit from no one, absolutely no one
and while his roller coaster life ended hard, he made his mark in that ring as the fight of the year in 1968 and no one can ever take that away from him.
He also left a mighty fine son and many fans who relive his exciting ring memories here on the zone.
I rate him as one of the best one shot punchers ever at lt heavy Mike.
You stay well and I always like to hear from you, God bless you.
09-17-2005, 12:42 PM
hey ron thank you for those words.as you know im in florida now but ill be up in jersey city on the 26th of this month for only 3 days. why dont we meet somewhere. the first drink is on me.
09-17-2005, 12:44 PM
ps as for as that book goes belive it or not im broke!!!! but i got a mention in the book
09-17-2005, 01:16 PM
hey ron.i got stuff on the old timers board about my father check it out and let me know what you think. i got one who is the real rocky chuck wepner or frankie depaula.and there is more stuff.
09-17-2005, 02:31 PM
hey what was the deal with that midget mario?someone told me that he was involved in setting my father up the night he was shot?
09-18-2005, 10:36 AM
hey ron. do me a favor can you email me a picture of my dad knocking down tiger?this way i can make copys.you can email it to me at email@example.com please ill make copys and bring to jersey city.
09-18-2005, 01:01 PM
I'm wondering if you knew Bobby Halpern? If you did, could you fill us in on him a little bit. I'm sure a lot of people here would find his story very interesting.
<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif" />
09-18-2005, 01:24 PM
It's been a long time since I made that arrest of Gary Garafola in Jersey City. I don't remember a midget's involvement at this time without reviewing the file, which was in our Homicide division of the Prosecutor's office which was run then by Steve McCabe a former NY City cop.
I was assigned the arrest of Garafola and subsequent court squad issues in assisting them on the case.
I went with them to see Frankie in the hospital and it was grim down there.
The pictures of the exchanged knockdowns on the DePaula V Tiger fight are on the web. I will look it up and be back to you.
TKO Tom, how is it going buddy?
I ran into Halpearn in the day when I did not miss a fight in the old Garden. I was ringside when Guy The Rock Casale laid him out and I still cringe at that punch.
All time showstopper right hand. BRUTAL.
He was always nice to me and the fans outside the Garden and very appreciative that anyone cared about him as a fan.
The Hebrew Hammer was a character and a half, very tough man, very strong, a real product of the mean streets and would fight anyone like a Bummy Davis.
I read an updated article on him long ago and forgot what it said, I wonder what's what with Halpearn today.
09-18-2005, 01:28 PM
You will find the pictures at this website.
09-18-2005, 01:39 PM
That was some fight Mike as you know by now.
I had been Tiger's sparring partner and very close friend for years after that up until his death.
I knew your Dad pretty good from staying up in camp in Chatam NJ with him and fighting for my life in Ehsan's ring to deal with Frankie's power and come out alive.
The toughest part was getting him up to run in the morning and covering for him when he would sneak out of camp at night and did not train and looked bad when the managers would come up there and yell at everyone.
I wanted to see a good fight between them and did not want to see either one get hurt. When Tiger went down I was instinctively yelling for him to get up as I was in such shock he went down.
I thought Frank would be blown out of there based on the Charlie Devil Green fight which I missed seeing but heard about.
Frankie surprised everyone that night and hung tough till the end, and I had much respect for both their courage.
09-18-2005, 02:08 PM
thanks ron.i met garys son he told me his dad did not do it he his told him it was a guy named joe dogs do you know anything about that piece of shit?
09-18-2005, 02:31 PM
hey ron is there anyway to get that case reopened?i would do what ever it takes for it to be reopened!!
09-18-2005, 04:43 PM
hey ron did you know rubin carter changed his phone#if you want his new one ill email to you let me know
09-18-2005, 04:56 PM
I am at the point now in my life where I have learned a few things. Believe me people are not going to tell you they killed someone.
If you have evidence that you feel should be looked into go to the Hudson County Prosecutor's Office in Jersey City, 595 Newark Ave and tell them who you are and what you believe happened and why.
I remember most of the office at that time believed Garafola did it. I do not know otherwise. I was the head of the SWAT team for 5 years and they used me for difficult arrests etc, as their police firearm instructor. I did not see the intimate details of the case.
I also worked the Organized Crime squad and I saw guys in the hallway at that trial who were the last people anyone would mess with in this life. The woman witness folded like a wet taco.
This female witness who initially said Garafola did it and then after she took a good look at the mob guys around that trial, she flip flopped on the stand and later died anyway. I believe she was killed.
Your Dad ran with some rough boys Mike, and him and I were just two tough kids who liked to fight with our fists.
These other people were stone cold murderers which is a nightmare for decent people who believe in God and want no part of these things.
All the detectives believed they had the man who did it.
Who knows anymore. Some of the cops I saw down there were worse than the mob guys, and I shit you not.
I have seen police in Orange County NY where I worked too, frame people, put them in jail and act like it is nothing.
They had two NY State Troopers who went to prison for framing and get this, over 6000 people by placing their fingerprints at the scenes of crimes just so they could solve a crime.
This was on tv and they showed a film of the two troopers testifying in open court that they found the defts fingerprints at the scene. Then the camera showed this poor man sitting there while the two cops placed their hands on the bible and swore his life away, just sitting at the defense table, helpless with no one believing him.
I have seen people perjure themselves in trials against me, and have lost a lot of faith in some officers integrity.
It goes on and on.
All we can do is take it one day at a time.
If it was my family member, I would not give a shit what someone's son told me, what Rubin told you, or what anyone told me, what the **** are they going to say, you know what I mean.
Not to disrespect his son or Carter here, or anyone else including Garafola, but I would find the detectives who worked on the case and speak to them. It's been 30 years now, maybe someone will talk to you. They should.
Rocky Alkazoff will tell you, there are guys in the slam, who everyone knows did something bad, but they become psychotic liars even making themselves believe they did not do it and when you talk to them you are talking to the other half of Norman Bates whose mother in Psycho really believed Norman was a bad boy etc.
I have seen master liars, cops, thugs, females, males,
and all of them are 100% convincing even when you catch them with the smoking gun.
After awhile Mike, you become seasoned wood that can see through bullshit 5 miles away. I heard it all believe me.
FOIL the records on the case, call them up and file a Freedom of Information request and see what you get that isn't redacted.
09-18-2005, 05:39 PM
would you help me ron?
09-18-2005, 09:22 PM
as a former member of that Prosecutor's Office I can do nothing to get involved in this, not even to mention my name.
Your efforts would have more weight than anyone as Frankie's son.
Just call the Prosecutor's Office, as a citizen and ask them to send you the F.O.I.L. forms and make your request. That 's all there is to it.
I am also pretty broke right now and taking care of 3 sick people with a part time job. I'm fighting to get my refs license back and I am so far removed from that stuff I can't begin to explain.
You can mail me the new number on Carter at firstname.lastname@example.org
Good luck on that Mike, just write them in plain english and tell them what you want, they will either do it or they will not.
09-19-2005, 09:09 AM
hey ron i emailed you rubin carters new phone# ok
09-19-2005, 10:36 AM
ron i just sent it. i went on one of his web sites years i told who i was and i wanted to talk to him and 2 days later he called me
09-19-2005, 10:37 AM
how i got the new number is when i called his house the message said his number is changed and they gave the new one:hat
09-19-2005, 10:53 AM
I did not receive it.
PS Do you spell your last name DePaula or Depaula without the capitols?
09-19-2005, 10:56 AM
ill send it again. i spell it DEPaula
09-19-2005, 11:02 AM
ron i just emailed you the # i emailed to email@example.com
09-19-2005, 11:04 AM
hey ron ade just mailed a copy of his book i should have it by thursday i cant wait
09-19-2005, 11:50 AM
ron i forgot to tell something.i just found out that i have a a second sister from my father her name is donna. she found me last month via internet.she said she has been looking for me a very long time. i went to jersey city 2 weeks ago to meet her. she looks some what like me. ill be staying at her house for a few days down the shore.she knows my dad was her father but she does not know who her mom is. she was giveing to this couple when she was 2 years old. talk to you later. mike
09-19-2005, 12:03 PM
09-19-2005, 12:40 PM
the e-mail is firstname.lastname@example.org
you did not spell it right.
How did you get the current # on Carter?
09-19-2005, 02:36 PM
hey ade i just got off the phone with rubin carter. i told him about your book. also rubin is going to help me get a copy of the tiger vs depaula fight film. any any other films on my dad
09-19-2005, 06:57 PM
Hey, if Rubin wants a signed copy let me know. I hope that it doesn't bring him too many bad memories though -when you read the book Mike, it's in there because Ron told me Rubin admitted that it was the biggest whupping he ever took inside or outside the ring.
09-19-2005, 08:05 PM
ok i will
09-19-2005, 08:12 PM
i just called rubin he was not home so i left him a messagr to call me ok
09-19-2005, 08:33 PM
ade i just spoke to him again. he gave me his address ill email it to you. make sure nobody get his address ok mike
09-19-2005, 09:06 PM
hey ade now write a book about me ha ha
09-19-2005, 10:36 PM
You e-mailed me this when I requested Carter's address & phone.
"rubin does not want to give his address out.the book is a diffent story.i
told him i gave you his new number he really wasnt to pleased sorry buddy."
You also posted to Adeyinka Makinde not to give out Rubin's address to anyone.
I hope you get the film Mikey, we all want to see it.
I must however tell you how I feel about all this.
I supplied Rubin with many of his fights at my own time and expense.
Many boxing historians I know who have friends in the film business cannot get that fight because it has not been transfered to tape yet.
Carter will not be able to get that fight although it is nice of him to tell you that.
It will cost thousands to do and after I got Muhammad Ali to put up $10,000 bail for Rubin in 1976 to set him free, I asked Carter to put up $5000 to help me in a self defense case.
He was making at least $10,000 per lecture and basically hung up on me to avoid helping.
Sooo if you get the film, and you were only 5 years old when we were trying to find out who shot your father, and Carter wil put up the $1000's to get the film for you, my hat is off to you Mikey, because after a lifetime of helping him, visiting him in prison for years, I happened to need his help one night when he was answering the phone drunk.
I needed a friend to help me and he did not want to get involved. He was busy. Some day you should speak to George Chuvalo who will tell you what Rubin did to his son before his son died after George and his son helped Rubin survive after he left the Canadians. It is some story.
But now the "New" Rubin will help you get the film and doesn't want anyone to have his address as you posted to Adeyinka Makinde.
I don't think anyone wants to bother Rubin Carter anymore, trust me. He should be glad anyone on earth wants to ever call him again.
After people helped him get out of jail, survive jail, and get the whole publicity campaign going for him, he turned his back on everyone including his own son.
Ask Mike DeLisa and Steve Gordon here what they think of him.
When you asked me to help you as to finding out who killed your father I did what I could.
Then I asked you to give me Carter's new address as I knew him all my life. You literally called him back and asked him if it was ok, and he said no.
Do you know what that is like for me to ask you permission to get an address of Carter and you refuse, as the little kid who was 5 while I was killing myself to help Carter and your father while he was in the hospital.
You should have just on your own given it to me based on who I am and what I tried to do for Carter and your father, instead of begging Carter for permission.
You should have said, Hey pal, I gave it to Ron Lipton, because he was there for you all your life, if he has something to write to you, then so be it.
I have his address now anyway and no one is going to bother Mr. Carter Mikey, so don't worry.
I got your e-mail telling me that you called Carter and asked him if it was "OK" to give me his address.
Why do that to begin with. To be polite?
C'mon bro, you ask me to put it on the line for you and help you find a murderer, and you waiver on giving me the address of a guy I knew since I am 12.
Sheet. Good luck with Rubin Carter.
This is what makes life obnoxious and crazy.
He's some fucking movie star now, I knew him when he was puking vodka out of car windows and punching out helpless women.
As I said, Ask George Chuvalo about what Rubin did to his son when they were trying to help him, and what he did in the place they gave him to stay in.
As far as him not wanting lifelong friends to have his phone and address and me having to hear it from a kid who was 5 while I was visiting him in prison and your father in the hospital, sorry Mikey that kind of conduit is a little hard to take for my 60 year old mind these days.
The disrespect is mind bending.
Everyone should read this:
<< Prev Topic |
09-19-2005, 10:37 PM
Ron is correct about the price; I would estimate when all is said and done it will cost between $3,500.00 and 5 Grand to have that fight transferred, Mikey as I had one of Jerry Quarry's done years ago.
I don't know Rubin personally; but he dosen't seem like the type of guy that would foot the bill for something like that.
Hope you get it and enjoy your dad's finest hour.
In a fight like that-there are no losers.
09-20-2005, 01:08 PM
ron there is no disresepct
09-20-2005, 03:55 PM
hey guess what bob foster just calld me he is sending an autograpg picture!!!!
09-20-2005, 06:53 PM
I am sorry you felt i did you wrong, but out or respect for Rubin i should have not giving you his address and phone #, but out of respect for you i did. When someone ask you not to give out personnel info about them you shouldnt. I think you can understand that. Its just not right. And please stop trying to turn people against me and my father on the message board. Lets just forget about all of this, and get on with it, and lets just put the misunderstanding behind us. Also i want you to know that i like rubin and he is a friend of mine. so i dont want to hear anything bad about him. Lets just act like this never happened.
Mikey De Paula
09-20-2005, 06:58 PM
I hope you understand that out of respect for Rubin when he told me not to give out his address and #, i should not have. but i gave it to you. I know that if some one ask you for someone personnel info and they told you not to give it to anyone you wouldnt. So lets forget this all happened.
I also would appreciate it if you have your friends stop talking bad about me and my father on the message board.
Mikey de Paula
09-20-2005, 07:09 PM
I'm beginning to wonder how much longer this is going to go on.................
09-20-2005, 07:14 PM
I don't recall anyone talking bad about Frankie DePaula or Mikey on this board; in fact I know they didn't.
09-20-2005, 07:17 PM
Everyone thinks what they want to, no one has to rewrite history on Rubin Carter, everyone knows about it.
When you say you don't want to hear anything bad about him, you would have to eliminate the two people who run this board. One is Mike DeLisa the founder who was an Assistant District Attorney in the City and everyone in his office felt Carter was guilty of murdering 3 innocent people.
Steve Gordon, Gor-Doom also has a right to his opinion and it ain't too good about Carter.
Then there is me. If you read the link Mike, what more is there to say. I dedicated half my life to save the man and what he did and said in a crisis is pathetic and beyond dishonorable.
No one's "friends" are turning against you, relax.
What do you mean against your father remark though, that was puzzling to me? I can't figure that one out though.
Frankie had some reputation in Union City Mike, ask any cop from that era and the boxing guys who were with him.
I liked him and stuck by him and probably knew him a lot longer than you at 5 years old you said.
I'm sure you thought you were doing the right thing by Carter and that's cool. Just no one here wants to hear about the idiosyncricies of Rubin Carter anymore with his secret addresses and phone numbers, thats what pisses people off after the way he treats his friends.
One would think he would be happy for anyone on earth to call him now that had genuine concern for him.
Do you think you know him better than me Mike? You talked to him on the phone a few times and you're his pal?
Ok, I respect that, but only after you read graphicwitness.com
then tell me what you think ok?
Now, no more of this lets keep it to boxing only.
09-20-2005, 07:33 PM
I know that you know Rubin better then me, but i still like the guy, he hasnt done anything to me. So as far as iam concern this matter about rubin is closed. So lets just drop it, i really dont want to hear anyones personnel feelings about him.
Mikey De Paula
09-20-2005, 08:40 PM
Then you shouldn't have asked in the first place. You ask a question here & you're going to get an answer. C'mon Mikey, lighten up.
09-20-2005, 08:50 PM
yes i will . im a ginny sorry
Juan C Ayllon
09-20-2005, 11:02 PM
Here's a message one of my nieces originally sent me which I think is appropriate here:
<a href="http://dingo.care-mail.com/cards/flash/5407/ilikeyou.swf" target="_new">Message to Posters</a>
Juan C. Ayllon
09-20-2005, 11:05 PM
Hey Juan that is funny
Juan C Ayllon
09-20-2005, 11:09 PM
You're absolutely right. In fact, I was laughing as I was posting it up.
With all the seriousness and tragedy in life, it never hurts to laugh a little now and again.
Moreover, all kidding aside, I think the idea is that regardless of where one's been, people are welcome here to enjoy exchanging ideas, debate now and again and enjoy the fellowship of a kindred passion, boxing.
Have a great night!
09-20-2005, 11:46 PM
Ron does not badmouth anyone unless they ask for it. I have never heard anything but respect for Frank DePaula. In regards to your father vs. Wepner, and Ron's observations of your father's fighting style, he was just giving his honest opinion, hold the sugar coating and side of bullshit. That's how he is about everything from what I've read on this forum: frank, blunt, and to the point.
If he doesn't think a fighter would have a chance in a fantasy matchup he will tell you so, even when the fighter in question is one of his absolute favorites.
Don't take it badly when he says your father swung wildly at times, or wouldn't be able to beat a 6'5" tough as nails heavyweight, he's just being honest. Each of us are only human and as Ron says, again and again in various posts, "you have to know your limitations."
09-21-2005, 12:30 AM
Thank you Kid, it is the truth.
Frankie DePaula was an amazing physical specimen of a fighter.
He had very strong legs in the Marciano tradition and a powerful back. His arms at one time were very powerful and muscular and he had very heavy hands. Al Braverman who I knew well but did not like too much liked Frankie and told many stories about him.
One of them was at the weigh in for the Foster fight.
He said Frankie was paralysed with fear of Foster and was shaking uncontrollably at the scale. He wanted to run out of the fight and not show up and Braverman who was one of the most intense foul mouthed cursers and tempers I have ever run across said the following in a published article which is where the former statements came from.
Braverman was his cornerman. He said, he twisted Frank's ear and told him if he did not control himself and look Foster in the eye and tell him he was going to break him in half then Braverman would yell in his face in front of everyone there.
Frankie did what he said, according to Braverman and later achieved a bad call knockdown against Foster which was ruled legit. The films show Foster clearly slipped and it was no knockdown. Frankie tried but Foster found the range and demolished him.
Frankie however handled himself well with Rubin Carter in training camp although Carter got the better of all the sparring I saw. The Tiger fight was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen and all the respect in the world goes out to DePaula for his showing that night against the aged Tiger.
Also his win of a bit pudgy Rocky Rivero who beat Rubin Carter and who beat Fernandez has to be respected.
He also had Charlie Green going but faded and was stopped hard.
He was a one shot puncher out of the mold of a Bob Satterfield and knocked out many guys in the Rag Doll nightclub in Union City where I was often.
He always treated me with respect and had a big hug for me.
I held his hand in his hospital bed when he was dying from Pneumonia and bed sores from some scrag nurse leaving his window open while he weighed 120 lbs down from 200 from the .45 slugs in him.
He died shortly before I came aboard in 1971 in the Pros Office, he passed around Nov 70 or so. I visited him while I was a cop in Essex County and then in Jan 71 I became a Det in the Pros Office. I attended the trial and saw who was hanging around that trial and it was not too cool from what I saw and heard.
The less said the better now.
I will always remember Frankie as a tough fighter who if he trained better and lived cleaner would have gone farther. He loved the ladies like we all do and sometimes did not believe fully in himself against the likes of Foster. Foster was an all time great who got to Frankie a little bit too much before the fight. It is understandable and Bob was the best.
Frankie was tough as nails and could punch like a mule kicking downhill. I stayed with him up in Chatam and had many swap sessions with him while I weighed 159 and he weighed 180.
I had to use all my speed to survive and then we would go out together afterward for some laughs.
It was a long time ago and a very sad thing. Many people liked Frankie and many people did not. It is the way things are for most of us.
I will always remember him as a wild guy, who would fight anyone and a tough good natured street type kid who basically had a good heart but his wild streak led him down the wrong path with the wrong guys.
There but for the Grace of God go I.
09-21-2005, 10:21 AM
The story of the Foster V DePaula weigh in with Braverman, I believe was in Teddy Brennar's book, Only the Ring was Square, I saw it somewhere else too.
09-21-2005, 12:11 PM
I've tried to resist chiming in here as I ahve on similar threads BUT I must state my personal revulsion at seeing a quote such as "out or respect for Rubin."
Makes me wanna lose my cookies -- and just resurrects my anger at losing all of our prior posts on this issue in the EZBooard hacking.
Furhter than that deponent sayeth not.
09-21-2005, 02:23 PM
What ever happed to Bob Lee?
is he in jail?
09-21-2005, 04:03 PM
I believe Bob did go to the house of many slammers as the Govt did not care that he was sick or old.
Bob at one time in 1971 was my Lieutenant in the Hudson County Prosecutor's Office while I was working on the Pre-Grand Jury Squad.
25 years later he was walking with me using a cane down the streets of Manhattan in 1996 after I refereed Roy Jones Jr on HBO in a world title fight.
Life is strange.
09-22-2005, 01:31 PM
im sorry ron fir the misunderstang
09-22-2005, 02:50 PM
Those last three posts were within an hour of each other. A bit schizo, IMO. Wonder what is really going, maybe more than meets the eye...
09-22-2005, 02:58 PM
I don't know if you remember, but when we talked a while ago you said that you might send me a tape with some of the fights you refereed. I'd still love to see it if you have time to put one together. I hope you are well!
09-22-2005, 05:26 PM
You got it Molly.
E-mail me your mailing address you want it sent to.
09-24-2005, 12:17 AM
The tape was mailed today to you. Hope you enjoy it.
09-26-2005, 07:20 PM
I will make an effort once again to write ESPN and ask them to show the public.
Tiger V DePaula
Jose Torres V Charlie Devil Green
Archer V Tiger
Archer V Carter
Rivero V Carter
Joe Frazier V Doug Jones
10-02-2005, 05:41 AM
It came up again tonight with the Chris Byrd fight where the ref told them to "mix it up" since they were going to slow. Al Berstein had a kitten. Do you think it is the ref's role to get the guys to 'pick it up' if the pace is slow? Have you done that? Curious.
If they aren't throwing anything, I understand maybe you gotta step in at some point. But when Richard Steele told Ray and Tommy to pick it up in their 2nd fight, in the 2nd round I think it was, I thought that was a little too much. Like these guys know what they are doing.
10-02-2005, 11:43 AM
I remember in the many fights over the years I refereed in the Garden or before big crowdswith the many guys on the way up I refereed in the prelims,
Alex Stewart, Montel Griffin, Ray Anis, Ivan Robinson, Lou Savarese, Courage Tsashabala, Tiger Martinez, Howard Davis Jr, Kevin Pompey, so many others, I would be hard pressed to remember, but many times, it would become necessary to say,
"Lets look good in here, or Lets do our best gentleman, c'mon, when things slowed down to a snails pace.
People pay to see them, pro boxing involves marketing a fighter, people paying to see a PRO fight, and the effort needed to maintain a quality show, it is part of the deal in my mind, when a fighter decides to turn pro.
It used to turn me off to see guys come into the ring really orca fat and say, "I'm comfortable at this weight," and then fight at a snails pace and stink out the joint.
10-02-2005, 11:44 AM
Yes, those Braverman comments on the Foster-DePaula weigh-in also appeared in Nigel Collins' "Boxing Babylon".
I well remember the reaction of author and Boxing News writer Tim Mo when he heard of the death of Braverman's sidekick Paddy Flood in 1983.
Mo was a softly-spoken intellectual who rarely spoke out of turn.
"Good," he said at the news of Flood's death. "Good."
10-02-2005, 11:48 AM
Like the written in stone Federation of Planet's Prime directive to all Star Fleet Vessels, Do Not Interfere or you willl cause a change in the outcome of other's destiny.
I never tell either fighter what to do as far as pace or style in that ring. It is up to them.
If things are getting dull and neither fighter is trying, the comment of "C'mon gentleman, this is for the title," might slip past my lips.
I have only DQ's one fighter in all these years, and that was for a NY State Title live on National TV. It was former lightweight champ Charlie "White Lightning" Brown V Jake "The Snake" Rodriquez.
Brown coming off of a long layoff and bouts with Cocaine abuse seemed to run out of gas within the first 30 seconds of the fight. He would throw one or two shots that would miss then grab and hold on to Jake for dear life. This went on and on, round after round with repeated warnings of "Stop holding, stop maintaining a clinch", followed by a point deduction etc.
But a referee cannot tell a fighter how to fight like the referee did in the Louis V Walcott rematch, where the referee according to Walcott kept telling him to stop moving and get in there and fight. That is insane to presume to tell someone how to fight.
Whether it is a barnburner or a fight that is stinking out the joint, the referee enforces the rules.
If neither contestant is doing their best then a case can be made for telling them to fight or the Commission has the right to hold up their purse.
10-02-2005, 12:29 PM
Referees shouldn't have to talk in the ring anyway except to say:
(3.) One, Two, Three......Ten, Out!
That should be the extent of what a referee should ever say to a fighter in the ring IMO.
<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif" />
10-02-2005, 01:06 PM
Hi TKO T,
I guess if the fighters would all fight good fights and obey the rules like pros, it would be that simple, and that would be fine with me.
Some things have to be added to that repertoir though now and then, but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong (Smile) like,
Hey Zivic Get your thumb out of his eyeball,
Tyson, Stop biting his ear off,
Hey Wepner, stop hitting Ali 50 times per round in the back of the head,
Hey Chuck stop kicking him in the balls,
Hey Chuck stop kneeing him in the balls,
Hey Hamsho, don't throw Scypion out of the ring again,
Hey Bowe, tell Rock Neuman to stop choking Tillary on the ring apron,
Hey Elijah, don't kick Riddick in the balls again,
Hey Mercer, stop bribing Ferguson, I heard that,
Hey Cooney, don't hit Holmes in the balls again,
Hey Pou'ha don't bite his shoulder again,
Stop hitting on the break,
Hey Roy Jones jr, don't hit Montell on the deck again,
Hey Mercer, stop punching Morrison while he is unconscious,
Hey Cooney, stop punching Norton while he is unconscious,
Hey Czyz, stop inventing bullshit stories in the corner,
Hey Holyfield, I have to check you for liniment, Czyz is acusing you of blinding him,
Hey Camacho, your cosmic diaper is coming off in the ring,
Hey Liston, wait till he hits you a real punch before you lay down,
Etc, Etc, Etc
10-02-2005, 01:31 PM
Those commands work in the amateurs well when you are dealing with obedient kids that train to those commands; but not in the professional ranks when you are dealing with men.
With all of the physicalities a ref has in the pros-it's simply not feasible. I will say: I thought Vic was absolutely correct in telling those guys to fight, and they would have been disqualified back in the 60's and 70's for their non-efforts. Mills Lane would not have tolerated that crap last night for very long, that's for sure.
10-02-2005, 02:59 PM
absolutely correct, and I have that book in my basement somewhere. That is exactly what Braverman said about Frankie DePaula.
Why Mike, his son got so mad at us for remembering it I will never know. I was always nice to Frankie and what happened is just part of boxing history. It certainly was published by someone else for God's sake.
There were many boxing people, writers, fighters, that remember Braverman and Flood as being very cruel, nasty guys. Others remember Flood more fondly than Braverman.
I have never seen a nastier guy than Braverman anywhere in life that I can remember. I cracked up when I read an underground paper written by Randy Gordon, who called himself, "The Pug knows." He attacked me, Floyd Patterson, Mercante Senior, it was hilarious really, but he wrote about Braverman, calling him,"The most foul mouthed lout I ever saw."
I laughed fit to bust. I always liked Randy as he gave me my first chance in refereeing, I along with my son will always like him and wish him the best. He loved boxing and to me was a good Commissioner, except for his unending use of Mercante Jr based on friendship. The worst ref out there.
10-02-2005, 03:31 PM
Thanks for answering my question and for those hilarious fill in the blank referee commands in historic bizarre fights. That cracked me up royal.
Best back at you.
10-02-2005, 03:32 PM
Hello Ron. Love reading your often poignant insights into eras I know very little about (I'm an 80's Bible, and that's about it). And we over here remember you well for your refereeing in the first Collins-Eubank fight. Great job.
As for Mercante Jnr; no doubt, Ron, he is a terrible ref. He refereed a fight over here a few years ago - Michael Ayers against Wayne Rigby. Ask any British fan about that ending.
Rigby was so out of it, he was literally begging to be rescued, but Mercante Jnr was in another world. Thankfully, Ayers could see Rigby was finished and the two fighters agreed between themselves to stop punching. I kid you not.
I also remember how Mercante Jnr allowed Mike Dokes to cop a sickening left hook from Razor Ruddock in 1990 at MSG. Dokes was out on his feet by the ropes, and Ruddock measured him for that final brutal hook with Mercante Jnr just allowing it. I thought Dokes was dead as he slid down to the canvas.
10-02-2005, 08:05 PM
thank you both, Tim, Beddows, and TKO Tom who I always like. Tko is right in a way as if two guys are fighting the way they are supposed to like in Carter V Benton, there should not be much to say.
Anyway, Beddows, what is your full name and where do you hail from?
I don't remember the Ayers v Rigby fight but I heard it was a bad job too.
Do you know the NYSAC under Ron Scott Stevens and Hugo Spindola still use Mercante jr in big fights despite his deadly negligence in the Scotland v Jones fight and the horrific history of amateur negligence before that bout.
Too much amateur refereeing and not enough fighting, he quit after less than 6 fights or so at 112lbs. Should have never been a pro referee.
The worst ones I saw him do where people really get hurt with is neglect are Whitiker v Huertado on HBO,
Charles the Natural Murray v Reggie Green on TV which you have to see to believe, Lennox Lewis v Mike Grant with the holding and hitting, Beatoven Scotland v George Jones which was a ring death that could have been avoided and so many more.
Big difference between a close call on a knockdown or standing 8 count as opposed to fatal beatings, freezing in the ring, he also gets too involved in the fights and it becomes very corny and embarrassing after awhile.
When it's close, he is heard to yell to them loud enough for the microphones to pick it up, "WHO WANTS IT MORE," cheering them on, very unprofessional.
I remember once he was refereeing Iran Barkley and Darrin Van Horn on tv. He came to the center of the ring, and trying to be "Hip" on camera, he says, "Ok Schoolboy and Blade, I am here to enforce the rules, copying exactly what the Senior Mercante would say.
Calling them by their nicknames just fell flat at that moment and was a cringing embarrassment because he said it in a real irritating New York City Bowery Boys Huntz Hall accent.
I just don't like all the political strings him and his father pulled with the WBC over the years and the favors in scoring that glare out when certain pals of the Dad were fighting.
In a chilling moment during an interview I did with Mercante Sr in the early 90's he admitted on tape he always favored the slick boxer over the punchers when he used to score. I almost fell out of my chair as I remember some of his biased scoring.
His best friends socially were Howie Albert and Clancy and they handled many fighters he refereed where he should NEVER have been given the assignment.
When you are politically connected like them you can get away with much crap behind the scenes for decades.
Did you ever wonder why they were used so many times despite terrible horrible mistakes over and over again.
The answer is major political contacts in Long Island and Albany.
10-03-2005, 02:22 PM
Thanks for the interest, Ron. I've sent you a message, given I'd rather stay anonymous on the board. Not that anyone would know me, I hasten to add. It's just, well, more fun that way.
Incidentally, for anyone interested: my interest in boxing began in 1960's when I watched the Greatest doing his thing. By the 70's, I became a huge fan of Duran, Arguello, Olivares and all those left hook to the liver guys. By the 80's, I was well obsessed. My favourite fights of the 80's include:
Bobby Chacon-Cornelius Boza-Edwards II
Aaron Pryor-Alexis Arguello I
Roberto Duran-Sugar Ray Leonard I
Sugar Ray Leonard-Tommy Hearns I
Wilfredo Gomez-Lupe Pintor
Marvin Hagler-Tommy Hearns
Salvador Sanchez-Azumah Nelson
Matthew Saad Muhammad-Yaqui Lopez 11
Bobby Chacon-Bazooka Limon IV
Julio Cesar Chavez-Edwin Rosario
Evander Holyfield-Dwight Qawi I
10-03-2005, 09:00 PM
Those were all great fights, good picks.
PS You said there was an anonoymous message? On what thread?
10-04-2005, 10:39 AM
Sent you a private message, Ron.
10-04-2005, 04:08 PM
I mean to my e-mail??? I did not get one.
thanks and always good to hear from you.
10-04-2005, 04:42 PM
To your ezboard Inbox, mate.
10-04-2005, 10:35 PM
can you e-mail me at email@example.com
I do not know how to access that private message.
Juan C Ayllon
10-06-2005, 11:02 PM
I thought you might enjoy this piece I just put together this evening. It's an interview with UFC Heavyweight Interim Champ, Andrei Arlovski's boxing trainer, Mike Garcia, who had a 26-0-0, 18 KO record as a professional fighter:
<a href="http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/news/archives/00001260.htm" target="_new">Mike Garcia Interview</a>
Let me know what you think of it!
10-07-2005, 12:58 AM
Thank you Juan, I shall certainly check it out.
Juan C Ayllon
10-07-2005, 08:11 PM
I posted this photo up of you at the CBZ Newswire page. Check it out:
<a href="http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/news/archives/00001263.htm" target="_new">Ron Lipton Photo</a>
10-08-2005, 04:51 AM
Good interview Juan, as I said, as always.
Why? Because you make them answer the questions that I personally want to know in detail and you get the answers.
In these boxing interviews involving an active fighter it is amazing the differences in training and diet which is very important to know for me as a fan, trainer etc. I am glad you dig it out of them for us to read about.
Mike is doing the right thing and he is luck he has a charge that is willing to put out that kind of work rate and listen to him. Mike's record as a former fighter is impressive and so is the rapport and comradery he has with Andrei.
If Andrei can maintain the concept that gaining useless weight is the bane of any fighter or athlete, he will realize that when he wins it is because he is training harder than anyone else.
Being he is not abusing his diet as far as Mike knows anyway, with starches (Bread), sweets, too much dairy, too much red meat, he will be quick, and look good while doing it.
Even with all that great aerobic training he has to keep his entire lower torso, abs, intercostals, serratus, lumbar, obliques, in lean rock hard shape to execute strikes, avoid strikes and stay flexible so he can twisht, turn, bend and churn on the ground and while setting up strikes.
There is so much time in a 6 day period even with a split routine training at night and during the day too. All boxers run sometime during that day and 3-5 miles is no joke for anyone, when it is run hard, interspliced with sprints and uphill, downhill work.
Andrei is doing great work on the punch mitts as to time spent, and also the heavy bag. He is sparring according to Mike 6-7 rounds which is plenty. I know this guy is bodybuilding too and must guard against doing ALL this and burning out. I do not think that will happen having seen him fight.
Lets see how his whole ab area looks in his next fight, as somewhat of a barometer as to how his diet is balanced V the aerobic work he is doing. At that work rate, if this guy watches the source of his carbs he should be looking like a ripped animal.
The only thing I would add for all these UFC guys and fighters too is my unique routine I have developed, for getting in the hardest strikes without telegraphing the moves, while both fighters are facing each other, tentatively in the opening 30 seconds. It is then that I do the most damage with what I teach as to punching power, to immediatley get someone in trouble while they are hoping to warm up to the first contact.
Juan C Ayllon
10-08-2005, 11:56 AM
Thanks for the kudos. Have you thought of writing a book?
When I interview these guys, I try to keep in mind what knowlegeable fight fans, fighters and former fighters would want to know. It's nice to know that it's working.
By the way, I talked with Dr. Stoxen after the fight and he gave me a recap, which I posted up at the CBZ Newswire page. See the link below:
<a href="http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/news/archives/00001264.htm" target="_new">Fight Recap</a>
From what it sounds like, like Muhammad Alli against Sonny Banks, Buentello was knocked out, but woke up when he hit the deck. The only thing is, Buentello was not allowed to continue. However, had the ref allowed the bout to continue, Arlovski was in perfect position to execute his superb ground game.
Anyways, I must run.
Have a blessed day,
10-08-2005, 06:24 PM
Good call on the Banks fight, Juan.
AJ Liebling wrote about that knockdown, as a matter of fact that is included in the book "A Neutral Corner".
Banks knocked the piss out of Clay briefly when Cassius tried hooking with a hooker, and nearly ended the fight then and there.
Tragically; the underrated and overlooked Leotis Martin fatally injured the Detroit youngster in a vicious fight some several years later.
Ron should not only write a detailed book, but put out some videos as well.
Juan C Ayllon
10-09-2005, 12:29 PM
Cool beans! Too bad Banks died as he did.
And, like we both said, I would love to see a documentary, as well as professionally produced training videos on Ron.
Have a good one,
10-18-2005, 02:26 PM
Hey Ron-----question for you although I think I know what you'll say....
What is your opinion of some of these present day fighters and their training camp preparations? To be specific, I see a guy like Rahman---mediocre at best at preperations---is in a must win bout in 3 weeks. He simply cannot afford a loss against an opponent that has like 34 ko's in 35 wins. But Rahman is training--and his opponent is a gym rat always in shape--in that boxing mecca; Bend, Oregon. His top sparring partner--and he's only using 3--is kevin mcbride.
I sincerely doubt you would take that same path. What path would you take with a guy like rahman in a bout like this?
10-18-2005, 03:07 PM
There is only one path for either fighter to take.
They must first put their entire body in a state of readiness to execute all their strengths for 3 minutes, 12 times in a row with only 1 minute rest between.
This is only the beginning. The fighters who do not watch tapes of their opponents in combat are fools.
I would study all my opponents fights and pay particular attention to tendencies, where their hands are in combinations, what postion they put their feet in, how they attack when they have a man hurt, how much shoulder they get into their punches, weak spots on their bodies ad infintum, everything and then some.
If the fighter does not have the eyes to see these things, then bring in someone who does.
Next for a big fight with all the marbles on the line, doing roadwork is not enough. It is how you do that roadwork up and down hills, sprinting, jogging, walking, sprinting until all the crap is out of your lungs and no dairy to put more phlegm back in is used.
Arms and legs must be in their best shape especially being able to spar all out, hit the heavy bag all out for 3 minutes a round, practicing your strong points, delivering fast combinations and really working on your foot placement in combination and keeping your damn chin tucked deep into that deltoid for each shot.
Refine your delivery, work your entire abdominal area besides the frontal abs, you must do rope cruches, a variety of high rep twists, eat less and get your body to be a more efficient machine with smaller portions of great and useful food and clean water. Vitamin and mineral supplements, the right ones.
In sparring practice how you will take the other guy apart and hurt him early and hurt him with everything.
I would have a specific plan for Rahman and another one for Klit. I know exactly what I would have both do seperately.
Rahman in my mind has always had too much water retention, too much useless bulk and intercellular fat on him despite his muscular size. When he gunned done Lennox he was sharp. He got tagged but good with that left hook camoflauge shot which paved the way for the semi-arching semi-roundhouse right hand that put Tyson and him away so well. He must refine his defense in moments of fast exchanges or when he is hurt.
Klit does not punch exactly like that and his delivery is more on a straight plane but he does go around the gloves with it. Rahman must not think of defending or he will eat too much leather from the outside.
I would have him taking lightining fast jackrabbit quick half steps almost like running speed and come in at angles while blasting Klit constantly off balance and hitting him everywhere like a heavyweight Henry Armstrong.
Of course to do this, Rahman would have to be ripped to the bone, to take up the slack and in getting close, really hurt Klit with everything. He would have to learn to turn through his midsection more and get more Jack Dempsey torque into his shots, and not always aim for Klit's chin from in front of him while the tall man has his hands up.
Rather, punch him while crouching and exploding forcing him back and to the side, hit him on the turns on the arms, shoulders, elbows etc until Klit opens up. Then nail the chin on him in an exchange rather than waste your time constantly aiming at it from the outside while in front of him.
Rahman has a chance to nail him with overhand rights too. All of this I would practice on my sparring partner who are either there to help you or not.
As to Klit, I would have him as I would Rahman do exercises in addition to their strength training that would accentuate the red muscle fiber fast twitch endurance aspect of training. 100 pushups, 100 crunches, then again and again with the pushups done with feet elevated.
Thus, with a real voluminous punch output in hitting the bags and in sparring, you would have both fighters truly ready aerobically, and with limbs that would not crap out in a real matchup of endurance.
A chain is only strong as it's weakest link and if your arms give out you are finished, if your legs give out same thing, and if your arms and legs are fit but you are heaving for breath you are finished.
Once must pay the dues and come in on time and be a CHAMPION in all aspects. Then your deserve the money, the fame and all that goes with it.
Then like Hagler, maintain this condition byl 75% throughout the years and bring it to 100% in training camp before a fight. Then you have achieved boxing longevity, and you are not only a pro fighter but a champion in the truest sense of sacrifice.
I would have Klit nail over and over again every second he came within range and make each punch hurt and cut, I would have him put his body into such shape that he would keep the fight on the outside and nail Rahman constantly making him pay underneath, straight down the pipe, and turn him while sticking him fast and hard.
A chess game of power and speed with the man winning who prepared the most and executed his plan more effectively. I would prepare both men to hurt the other as often and as soon as possible and then maintain that punishment like a racehorse who gained an early lead and just kept it up.
10-18-2005, 04:41 PM
I guess I should have asked you what you wouldn't do---and that's seemingly what rahman is doing.
What do you think of him in Oregon and not vegas? And using 3 sparring partners for this particular opponent? Should a kevin mcbride be the best of the 3? And what about padwork--he always seemed like a guy that needed some help and refinement there.
I read also where the rock is doing some weights in his training now also. To me, it's a big mistake for this opponent who can counter over hasim's jab. also, I think rahman has overdeveloped shoulders anyway and can't keep those arms up as rounds go by.
I can imagine just trying to get a guy like that jogging--and add his recent bankruptcy and zero monies for this fight--up at 5 am to make sure he gets the miles in. My guess is he takes a car ride and pours water over his head at 6:30.
Thanx for your response---I just watched requiem for a heavyweight today and it sure looks to me that not only does it appear like the rock will take a beating like a mountain rivera, his career will end up the same by the year 2015. A real shame.
10-18-2005, 08:23 PM
I think Rahman was a one hit wonder, Robert.
I also don't think a great boxing mind like Ron Lipton would help the guy, as he wouldn't listen anyways to what Ron has to say as he has been stubborn and insolent to his trainers and was to his former trainers. He has been lifting big time weights for awhile now-but I think it worked out well for him in terms of power. He iced Corrie Sanders and Lennox and was really massive through the chest, shoulders, and biceps. But; Rahman is very lazy as you correctly pointed out, Robert and is his own worst enemy. Klitschko has a stamina problem however, and if Rahman does his homework on the road, he has a shot if he gets past the first several rounds. Klitschko was in HEAVY breathing against Danny Williams and the Englishman was doing absolutely nothing to get the guy tired. Vitali's mouth was wide open sucking wind. Ron Lipton could mold this guy into a Champion again; but it takes two to tango and Rock isn't going to listen to anyone but himself, and in no way would he ever train the Spartan lifestyle Ron has laid down for us here.
10-18-2005, 08:34 PM
RobertK and Stinker Karl.
I have to agree with both of you the way it seems with the Rock.
He could fool us all depending on how much he wants to train hard. Training hard is the only way to win and training right, right for you.
Robert, being in Oregon, or Chatham NJ or Greenwood Lake or anywhere is actually ok as to health and hyperventilating good rich oxygen during roadwork and to avoid the distractions of the city.
The three sparring partner thing can actually be ok too if they do their job and make him work by emulating Klit, and most important getting Rahman to put out and hone his attack that is geared to this fight specifically.
I actually got my first look at Kevin McBride in Belfast Ireland in 1994 when I refereed at Kings Hall in Belfast while doing the WBO welter title fight. This kid was on the card. Wow, almost 11 yrs ago!
For all Hurricane Carter's major fights he used Bill Hardney, Clay Thomas, me and sometimes Jay McCombs.
We got hammered like you would not believe but earned our keep. The hardest work was the damn roadwork with Carter who could run all day, and doing it at 4:30AM. Vicious hills ran we did, Obi Wan. I puked my guts out at the pace. But we never tired in that ring.
Rahman and Klit owe the fans a good fight and to be in shape. If not, boxing interest is truly dying out among the casual fan.
10-18-2005, 08:55 PM
Stinker Karl:rollin , huh Ron??l
There are actually a few folks that will agree with you on that one!
I agree with everything you said, btw and thanks for that info about Carter.
10-18-2005, 09:59 PM
a thousand apologies my good buddy, I type like an Orangutan on acid sometimes.
I did not see it and I do apologize, call your seconds off immediately, I shall not meet you at dawn with pistols.
Nice typing Ron.
10-18-2005, 10:20 PM
Hi Ron - What did you think of Lennox Lewis as a boxer ? Did you ever ref any of his fights or see him live ?
When he was "on" he was very impressive for such a big man. That three or four punch combo on Frans Botha was the best combo put together that I've ever seen by a heavyweight it was so fast - truly amazing for such a big man
At other times he was too passive or so it seemed to this armchair fan .
All things considered he was one of the best Heavyweights since Ali.
10-19-2005, 06:43 AM
Hi and thanks for writing.
Lennox Lewis when on top of his game, in control of his weight and overall condition was truly a powerhouse of a professional fighter. When his ire was aroused and his competitive spirit tasked, he would rise above any complacency that would set in and he would get into the destruct and destroy mode.
When he was younger and lighter his right hand would flash out like a snake strike and down would go a big man like Razor Ruddock. He beat Ossie Occasio W 8, Mike Weaver, Tyrell Biggs, Tony Tucker although by decision, Frank Bruno, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer,
Ollie McCall in a rematch, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Michael Grant, Tyson, Rahman, Holyfield by decision ,same with Tua, Botha and Vitali Klit among many others.
The sight of Tyson lying on the deck knocked cold with blood streaming down his eye, and Lewis pounding his chest telling everyone, "Nobody beats this Mon," is not soon to be forgotten. When he was in shape and kept that weight down, he was a dangerous big man who could dispatch other dangerous big men in bad ways.
He had balls to be sure and he came to fight. On the down side he did not have the mobility to save himself when forced to go to plan B, and when Rahman and McCall brought some Kryptonite to the frey, Superman fell but hard. He took care of both of them in fiery fashion in returns to be sure.
It would have been nice if he got Tua out of there and Holyfield too like Bowe did, and this would have helped his destroyer image.
I have recently studied the right hands he nailed Ruddock, Tyson and Rahman with and the way he loops it around the glove with a slight arc on it at the end of it's delivery and makes it work with tremendous snap, is a thing of beauty. The more straight right hand I saw in the Ruddock fight is one he did not use enough after that fight and it would have served him well.
His left hook was not on a par with his right hand but it was a heavy punch which could hurt when it landed and it paved the way for many stoppages.
I would have liked to see three things in this fighter, more of a fast and punishing jab, much more flexibility and leg movement, as he stood too straight up while he had his way, but could not bend, weave, and slip when things went wrong, and finally a diet and training regimen change to offset the amount of fat that set in as he got older but obviously did not compensate for it via diet and training. Thus his power waned along with his mobility and killer instinct.
He is a winner and truly was one of the best since Ali.
All in all a big, skilled, seasoned and dangerous heavyweight with formidable power who became competitive seasoned wood who kept his cool in front of big crowds in big fights.
His chin if tested and nailed failed the big man on several occasions, and when he is hurt or wobbled he absolutely has to be re-schooled in what to do. It seems to be too much of a shock to his mind that anyone can hurt him and when they do, he lets his mind control go, and while he is saying to himself, "Damn, I'm hurt, how the hell did this happen?" They then dust him off quickly.
That can be fixed though in training camp to a degree.
10-19-2005, 06:46 AM
I have seen most all his fights, but the ones in person were both Holyfield fights, and when I refereed Holyfield V Czyz, I watched him fight Ray Mercer on the undercard in Madison Square Garden.
10-19-2005, 03:45 PM
Thanks Ron , great info ! It must be something to see a big fight live let alone ref one.
I've heard some say that Ray Mercer gave Lewis a very tough fight and made it close but Lewis did win , is that how you saw it ?
It was nice to see Lennox retire with a win over his heir apparent. True it was stopped by a cut after the sixth round. In that fight it appeared Lennox hadn't trained much and was gassed early, he took some hard punches but stayed in and returned some howitzers of his own. Who know how it would of ended had it gone a few more rounds. I'm glad he retired on top not many boxers can say that.
One more question , it seems that lighter weight guys have more hand problems than the heavyweights . Is that true or do they have just as many but take it in stride without mentioning it ?
Thanks again ;)
10-19-2005, 05:01 PM
It is untrue. A fighter's hands are certainly prone to injury at anyweight.
I am really big on taping properly and I have been doing it since I am 12 years old. A long time. I attended many seminars where the Commissions invite well schooled cornermen to demonstrate the way they tape for the Inspectors to watch. Therefor eliminating any hoodwinking attempts in the dressing rooms which goes on all the time.
The best tape job I ever saw, a thing of beauty to watch was Floyd Patterson taping Tracy's hands, Jimmy Wilde who trained Hurricane Carter was a master and Charlie Goldman who I saw also. That's the best way to avoid hand injuries.
I also used to watch and learn from Teddy Bentham who taped Carlos Ortiz in training camp.
A harder puncher at anyweight is going to feel the impact on those metacarples, knuckles and connective tissue also. Got to take care of those two mitts, it's all you have to deliver the goods.
All body weight, skeletal frame, is relative and if one has a propensity toward injury in that area, it is going to happen regardless of poundage.
Strongest hands I ever saw, like an animal, the knuckles, finger strength etc, was Carter. Yet he too was plagued by pain like all of us and used sponges in his wraps.
10-22-2005, 09:42 AM
On October 18, 2005, Hugo Spindola of the NYSAC and Ron Scott Stevens denied my Referee License Application for the third time without giving me any explanation.
Mike DeLisa and myself have to now file the Petition again, within a specified time of their Oct 18, 2005 denial to finally get them into court to explain this and of course for me to tell what I know.
I have to raise the approx $300-$400 filing fees which is exactly what the NYSAC wants me to do.
10-22-2005, 11:47 AM
This is bad news, I feel for you Ron. Keep fighting man.
10-22-2005, 01:25 PM
a lot of good people in boxing know what's going on behind the scenes now, we will get it into one court for the Petition, and then I am going to sue them individually for this vicious harassment and let a Fed Jury decide on damages for the years they cost me.
10-22-2005, 07:56 PM
Man, Ron-this is disturbing.
You are one of the best referees at letting the fighters fight.
In that Jones W Canizales fight we spoke of-you were hardly in the picture.
I know and you know that you look out for the fighter's best interests.
That is all that counts ultimately, IMO.
Most of these refs outside of Randy Neumann have never even had any fights!
I liked Randy as a fighter-good clubfighter that beat Jimmy Young and Chuck Wepner but is now in bad shape physically.
I also saw Duane Bobick almost kill him, and we all know Bobick was no world beater.
I am rooting for you, bro.
10-22-2005, 08:05 PM
I just want to get into a courtroom where the Judge can see my full affidavit and hear my evidence, as to who is at this Commission, their background and associations and the history of the truth here as to what the real chronology is and how they did this to me.
Mike needs the filing fees and we go!
10-23-2005, 06:00 AM
As painful as their decision is, this is not unexpected.
The hope will now be to have a date scheduled in court at the earliest possible time for you to give the unexpurgated truth and to expose for public record this insidious cabal who have shamelessly and ruthlessly denied you your fundamental right to earn a living much in the manner that they are depriving both fighters & fight fans of your prodigious talents.
All the best.
10-23-2005, 08:43 AM
thank you Ade and everyone else.
It is all political and personal revenge for telling the truth.
No matter what they come up with, it will be dealt with in court by showing what they have allowed, forgiven, and knew about other officials who are working all the time for them.
They have licensed Smoger who was kicked off the bench in NJ as a local magistrate with the ruling, "He does not have the integrity to be a judge ever again."
He was refused a license and then given one.
They cannot say anything about asking for assignments as Pedro Fernandez did an expose on Smoger for just that and they licensed him.
It cannot be for a misdemanor conviction for self defense against 3 men, because in NY State you can have a misdemeanor conviction and still be a police officer let alone a referee. They also have a lawyer's letter explaining the charges and how everything was dismissed, I was set up by the very officer who was friends with their former executive director, and additionally the judge who was involved in tampering with this case is thier Director of Boxing's dear friend, now that judge was disbarred for theft and dishonesty and my complaints were involved in that process.
The buddy of that Executive Director sits next to Ron Scott Stevens at ringside and is shown to do this on film.
I was told personally by Ron Scott Stevens that they had too many guys as the only reason they would not renew my license in 2003, and it was his decision alone.
Then the next day I found out from his hatchetman, that he had gone around asking around the office if I should be let back, the other people he asked said no, and you all know the rest. Then all of a sudden, a guy who is a promoter and sits as the Chairman, says through Spindola, "It is for the good of boxing."
For three years they will not tell why, but when they do, it will be turned around on them in court with evidence and a history that will by their own hand ruin their legacy forever.
They are linked forever to their former Commission members who were involved in ring deaths and scandals, and their friends and stooges still work there and pull the strings using the same officials.
That is not just my opinion it is an incontestable fact,
and their backgrounds have already been investigated as much as a former member of their staff who was involved in a federal kidnapping charge and still was employed there, exposed, fired and humiliated, yet rewarded with another job for keeping his mouth shut.
For "The Good of Boxing" everyone there at the NYSAC that has paid money to get their job, contributed to getting fighters killed and injured, and had no boxing background themselves other than promote fights watching other men bravely fight each other, making money off their bravery, and felate their way into a boxing position in a State Agency, and use that agency to blackball lifelong boxing men in order that their friends can get the assignments rather than fighters getting the best protection, should be not only let go which they will soon enough, but be remembered always for the total lack of boxing knowledge they have shown.
The only reason they are there is the political contributions they have made to Albany which was exposed in the NY Post by Jack Newfeld. The same men are there now.
Little Hugo Spindola who sits ringside and wrote the letter to me, has no boxing background whatsoever. He made himself Executive Director and he sits as Comm Atty. Stevens was told by no one less than Harold Lederman that I should be licensed and used again, others in boxing echoed the same thing.
Stevens told me (On record) "If I license you, I will have to use you then." He cannot because then his personal friends who want the assignments will be angry, so he uses the NYSAC along with Spindola, as their personal social club.
When I was there I never went public with any criticism of any official, I kept it in the family. When they let me go and permitted one atrocity after another, I then and only then spoke out.
In essence, they want you to suffer in silence and do what ever they want with no one saying anything.
An ethics committe should investigate this Spindola.
His weakness is what he has allowed to be done already, and the comparison cases he is aware of regarding officials, their performances on film and how the Comm is used for revenge in preventing me from working while giving the same men more work despite ring deaths, injuries and major foulups on tv.
Juan C Ayllon
11-04-2005, 07:51 PM
I posted this link at the CBZ Newswire page to a great newspaper article on Ron after I received permission from its managing editor:
<a href="http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/news/archives/00001333.htm" target="_new">Ron Lipton Article</a>
I also included the photo of Ron with Muhammad Ali that he recently sent me.
Juan C. Ayllon
11-11-2005, 11:45 PM
Thank you to all the family on the Zone for posting so many supportive comments regarding my battle to get my license back, and the replies to the Poughkeepsie Journal story.
It meant a lot to me and you guys are the greatest!
thank you again,
Ron Lipton and family
11-12-2005, 05:32 AM
Did you ever get the PM that I sent a few weeks ago?
11-12-2005, 01:47 PM
no I don't think so, please send it to me again. Thank you
11-12-2005, 06:03 PM
Another pm should be in your ez box.
11-12-2005, 06:25 PM
please e-mail it to me at firstname.lastname@example.org
I cannot access the PM box for some reason.
11-21-2005, 07:27 PM
I am editing this thread on which I posted Ron's updated (rough) affidavit and will instead post a summary of his arguments -most of which are familiar with members of the Zone and other boxing internet users in a condensed format.
Ron, the challenge is still there for any of these anonymous "administrators" and "insiders" to debunk your allegations.
11-22-2005, 07:38 PM
Ron Lipton's credentials
3 Time New Jersey Golden Gloves Champion
Sparring partner to Ali, Frazier, Rubin Carter, Dick Tiger
Teacher on accredited college course at Marist College
Licensed referee in New York 1990-1998
Also New Jersey Pensylvania, Maine, Missouri and Vermont
Refereed in the UK, Ireland and Italy
Holyfield v Mercer
Ruddock v Morrison
Holyfield v Czyz
Jones v Brannon
DeLaHoya v Leija
Sosa v Williams
Patterson v Sanchez
Whitaker v Jacobs
Collins v Eubank 1
Boxing Historian/Expert Status
Praised by amongst many:
Corruption within NY Boxing Administration
Jack Newfield and Wally Matthews's 3 part expose in the New York Post of commission members who still have friends in the current set up
Evidence of NY re-using less than proficient referees
Referee involved in the Beathoven Scotland tragedy and incidents of poor decision making in Whittaker-Huertado, Murray-Green, Lewis-Grant, Dokes-Ruddock, Ayres-Rigby (UK)
Referee whom the Judicial Conduct Commission in NJ pronounced did not have the "Integrity to ever be a Judge again."
Articles published in Ring, Boxing Illustrated, World Boxing, Ulster Magazine (won an Award), cyberboxingzone.com
Boxing on TV, DVD and Stage
Senior Boxing Consultant on Muhammed Ali-The Whole Story on TNT
Award winning cheoreography in regard to the stage play Ali
Boxing Expert on the documentary Cinderella Man: Jim Braddock-The Real Story
Boxing issues in relation to the law
Testimony in the legal battle between Joey Giardello and the company responsible for the movie "The Hurricane" crucial in the $350,000 settlement in favour of Giardello.
Testimony on in Irish High Court contributed to World Champion Steve Collins's victory in a contractual dispute with his manager/promoter
Both serve as clear cut evidence of Ron's integrity and credibility
Mentioned in the following Boxing Books
The Sixteeth Round
Dick Tiger: The Life and Times of a Boxing Immortal
Stellar record as a Police Officer and Dectective for Hudson County Prosecutors Office
Life Time Civil Rights Award
Anti-Drug Abuse campaigns lending support to George Chuvalo, former Canadian Heavyweight Boxing Champion
11-30-2005, 02:08 AM
I just saw the tape today of the fight on tv.
It looked to me that Briggs held Mercer with one arm and while behind him and to the side, hit him while holding, with several shots which I never would have believed would have even buzzed Ray, but ko'd him.
It looked like a clear cut case of a foul of holding and hitting without the ref Brian Garry saying one word about it.
Barry Thompkins and Sean O'Grady did not say one single word or even hint at it. What the hell is going on?
It seems that Mercer was supposed to lose, Briggs is on the rise, so anything goes?
12-21-2005, 10:52 PM
I just wanted to say to all my Cyberboxingzone friends besides wishing everyone a very Happy and Merry Christmas and healthy new year that I am very grateful to all of the caring boxing people who stood by me to help me get back into that ring.
Furthermore, whether I ever get my referee license again
in NY or not due to what I know specifically is a totally unjust situation, I have come to a few conclusions about life.
I believe I remain someone who will still speak out like all of you when a boxing situation merits it, and I would still like to think I am the same tough street kid I was long ago but I have come to realize one truth.
There are many good people in boxing who have shown me they a good guys to the marrow of their bones and one of best of them is Teddy Atlas.
I have come to respect and really like Teddy and I count myself as one of his friends. I had him all wrong and I can tell you for sure his heart is in the right place and that is all that counts to me in this hard hard life we all face. We both love boxing and may or may not disagree on things from time to time, but he is the salt of the earth kind of guy.
I also think I was wrong to Publicly criticize some refs who fouled up in the ring, only because they did not do it on purpose and were doing the best they could.
Certain refs who got assignments through relatives my opinion stays the same, especially regarding ring injuries and death. That being said, I think I was very wrong to risk hurting any human beings feelings, because nothing is worth that to me anymore in life.
So, whether or not I get back in that ring again, the new year for me will see a different outlook on things. We as boxing fans see everything, we all know what is going on but as a fighter I never enjoyed hurting any man, and I never want to hurt another person's feeling either that did not come gunning for me personally so to speak.
People have shown me recently when I have really been down as far as I could go that they have a good heart, and it has changed my outlook tremendously.
thank you all,
12-22-2005, 02:12 AM
That's very impressive Ron. It's always a struggle, then some sweetness, more struggle, the warm sun, stumbling on a can of beans in a remote corner of the pantry meaning you can put off going to the store until tomorrow and enjoy the last of your beer and tacos in style.
"No matter how much I struggle and strife, I'll never get out of this world alive"......Hank Williams, chorus of the last song he ever wrote and was #1 country hit probably blaring on the radio as he lay dying in the back of his chauffered Caddy.
It's easy to get down of people as you noted, but then I look around and see all manner of folk with traits I find superior to myself who are more humble and caring and hey, I'm not such a big shot or cold cynic anymore. I'll just enjoy the roses when they bloom, waitout the yearly ice storms, and be happy to be feeling alive to see and hear of incredible things.
Merry Christmas ALL.........I sorta had a premature Christmas with finding a miracle parking slot downtown, seeing the Telefutura fights at the ring apron last Friday, and getting some great shots of me 'n Jesus Chavez together, one that is being printed for my Christmas cards being mailed tomorrow. It's the little things that put us over the top. Thanks again Ron.
12-22-2005, 11:33 AM
Exquisitely put Robert, and thank you.
Those Christmas cards sound pretty cool too.
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