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View Full Version : Taylor-Pavlik Predictions, Result, and Discussion 9/29/07



diggity
07-03-2007, 10:09 PM
Well it's put up or shut up time. Glad this came together so easily.

Elwill7847
07-04-2007, 09:28 PM
I like Pavlik in this fight.

DscribeDC
07-05-2007, 11:17 AM
Wow. A real fight between real top guys. And this is free while the Dead End Kids milk PPV. How f***ed is boxing?

gregbeyer
07-06-2007, 01:16 AM
taylor exposed in this one.
greg

Mexal
07-06-2007, 02:48 AM
Kelly is all business inside the ring and Taylor seems reluctant at times to even throw a punch.

Kelly will make him fight, that's for sure, which will probably bring out the best in Taylor to make this fight very interesting.

I like both guys a lot, but Pavlik seems more hungry determined than Jermaine at this point.

Roberto Aqui
07-06-2007, 04:36 AM
Pavlik's size and style practically guarantees a good bout. Taylor will feel pressed and will have to respond with either his own power or some rough tactics he learned from Hopkins.

Pavlik has progressed well the past 2 yrs, whereas Taylor seems to be stuck toughing it out against negative style fighters that nobody looks good fighting. I'm still not believing how easily Pavlik dismantled Miranda who couldn't put a dent into him. Taylor will have taken notice and will be ready.

Haven't made my pick yet, but if Calzaghe is still around, the winner might get a superfight in Wales or London.

diggity
07-06-2007, 09:19 AM
This is a real good fight for Taylor win or lose. He will be pressed to show his natural talents and I'm sure his offense will look good at points but I just do not see him being able to take a punch from Pavlik nor hurting him too much for that matter. Pavlik will certainly get hit but he will throw all night and something will eventually catch Taylor. Unfortunately for Taylor, due to reasons we all know too well, he has no idea what a puncher feels like.

Nixon
07-06-2007, 10:37 AM
This is a good styles match-up. It will be an explosive fight.

diggity
07-09-2007, 07:39 PM
Sounds like Taylor is jockeying for position already. Reports today say what most of us already know that he can no longer make middleweight and plans to get this fight at a catchweight. My feeling is he will need all the help he can get against Pavlik & sounds like he believes it too.

prototypeofamodernmadman
07-10-2007, 11:44 AM
yea, Taylor also made the statement that this defense would be his last at middleweight and that he would be moving up to supermiddle, hmmm, sounds like a built in excuse, " I was really struggling with the weight man" I didn't give Pavlik any chance against miranda, and although he dominated, miranda just looked like another mayorga in there which is a far cry from Taylor, (I hate taylor by the way), anyway if Taylor gets knocked out i'm sure the weight is going to be his major excuse.

diggity
07-11-2007, 07:38 PM
You know it.

TKO Tom
07-11-2007, 10:36 PM
I think Jermain Taylor is in a pretty dark place right now.

Nobody has heard a peep from him since the Cory Spinks "stink show". Now when he finally pipes up he says he doesn't know about the Pavlik fight and that he has to move up in weight.

Taylor, I think, is cracking under the criticism. Think Apollo Creed after he fought Rocky Balboa the first time. Remember the scene in Rocky II when Apollo was reading the hate mail from fans to his wife? I think that's the frame of mind Jermain Taylor is in. He's the Champ, but everybody is questioning all of these tainted decisions (Hopkins I, Hopkins II, Wright, Spinks) and the fact that he has fought a lot of junior middleweights.

If he runs from Kelly Pavlik, any respect I still have left for Taylor goes right out the window. It's time for Taylor to step up to the plate and make a statement. It's the proverbial "shit or get off the pot" scenario.

Kelly Pavlik is a great guy and a down to earth guy to talk to. All he wants is his shot at the title. It's a fuckin' travesty that Taylor is now beginning to pull these games by trying to make the fight at a catch weight and in my view trying to back out of the fight. Get of the fucking donuts, run a fucking mile and lose a few pounds. Jesus fucking Christ this is a sport of whiners now! Look at Micky Ward who fought for 18 years at 140 pounds!!! Better yet look at Marvin Hagler. I don't imagine it was a walk in the park for Marvin to make 160 for all of those years - but he did it.

TKS

dnahar
07-13-2007, 08:59 PM
Tom, I agree 100% with your post. As a U of A student and Jermain fan, I am getting tired of the excuses. He said he tried too hard to knock Ouma out right away and had little left for the rest of the fight. He said that Hopkins was an awkward style that was impossible to look good against (any boxing fan knows this is actually true). I personally thought his best fight of the bunch was against Wright and we were in the arena and thought Winky won it. And the Spinks fight was a total non-effort by Jermain and his whole camp from beginning to end.

But this weight excuse is total crap. Doesn't his team realize that his cachet comes from the fact that he IS the middleweight champion? No way HBO pays the same money for a catchweight fight and to even consider that an option is insulting to boxing fans, Pavlik, and the viewers. Even Al Haymon can't brainwash HBO into agreeing to that! And to think, there is precedent here. For the Cory Spinks fight, Cory initially weighed 161.4 on the scale. There were rumors Taylor might not make weight. And Jermain talked about how unprofessional Cory was to be over. And now this.

When I think of Jermain now, and how he's about money and business, I think back to Hagler's famous quote: “it's tough to wake up and go running at 5:00 in the morning when your in silk pajamas.” I hope Jermain goes back to the basics that made him good and focuses for this fight against Pavlik. I hope he is doing roadwork at 5am. Because Pavlik won't let him be passive and I don't want to see all of Jermain's potential go to waste.

Deepak

Roberto Aqui
07-13-2007, 09:49 PM
“it's tough to wake up and go running at 5:00 in the morning when your in silk pajamas.” Deepak

OUCH!

Guess that's why I sleep in Joe Boxers and run in the heat of the afternoon.

diggity
07-18-2007, 06:46 PM
Deal finalized today. Can't wait.

silk degrees
07-19-2007, 07:27 PM
I think you Pavlik hanger on's are in for a rude awakening!! I will be in Atlantic City, and I won't be hard to spot, I will be the guy with the crutches in tow waiting for all of you Pavlik sicko's to jump off the bandwagon that night after his defeat. Pavlik is a real mechanical fighter, he looks like Lurch from The Addam's family out there, and yes Taylor hasn't looked great of late, but Pavlik is made to order for him, and look at the respect Hopkins gave Taylor in those two fights, he was not coming in with any force like many of his fights, don't count Jermaine out just yet. Manny Steward will have Jermaine move side to side, and occasionally showing Pavlik his own power. I think Pavlik is made to order for Taylor. With that said, have a nice life guys!!!

sr71ko
07-19-2007, 09:58 PM
I like both Jermaine Taylor and Kelly Pavlik, however my gut feeling for Kelly Pavlik is that he should be careful what you ask for. This may be the time when Taylor is perhaps more dangerous than ever because of all the flack about his past performances may force Taylor to really prepare and respond with devastating results.

Roberto Aqui
07-19-2007, 10:26 PM
Pavlik is a real mechanical fighter, he looks like Lurch from The Addam's family out there

I picked Miranda over Pavlik because of his stiff style and lack of comp.

The only thing stiff about Pavlik against Miranda was his punches. His timing was superior, his footwork and balance spot on, and he had the eye of the tiger in there against a really rough guy with fearsome power.

Taylor won't be fighting an old man or defensive fighter. He will have his hands full, I promise. Pavlik sure looks like he needs a meal and T-bone Taylor may well be on the menu.

diggity
07-20-2007, 01:54 AM
When was the last time Taylor really hurt anyone significant? He is not putting a dent in Pavlik and I'm willing to say Pavlik will put a dent in him since the not-so-powerful BHop made Taylor do a little hula. Pavlik may not look completely pretty in doing so because it wasn't his style to begin with but I'm willing to bet he takes out Taylor. Taylor is certainly no push over but Pavlik is real and he is not going anywhere without a brawl.

silk degrees
07-20-2007, 09:16 PM
You guys have Pavlik in the Hall already, give me a break!! As far as Hopkins, he never force the issue in both fights, he gave Taylor much respect. As far as Taylor not looking good, most fighters in there with Cory Spinks won't look good against him at all. Taylor knew if he came forward with Spinks he would have spent the whole night chasing, I thought his laid back style there worked good. I feel Pav's style is just right for Taylor, he can give movement, and I believe he can keep Pav at bay with his power. Remember Ali got knocked down by Cooper, and many thought Doug Jones beat him prior to the Liston bout. Well I am not saying Taylor is Ali, he isn't, but don't bury Taylor just yet. This is the kind of fight Taylor needs to bring out the best in him. Diggity your boy Pav never fought a guy like Taylor, and the bet, bring it!!! You may not be able to handle a bet after you suffer that broken ankle jumping off Pavlik's bandwagon!!! I respectfully disagree with your view

kikibalt
07-20-2007, 10:28 PM
Taylor has not looked good since he won the title, of their last few fights you would have to pick Pavlik, not that I'm picking him just yet, but you know that old saying, "you're only as good as your last fight" so I'll wait and see down the line who I pick.

I really think that this fight is a make or break fight for Taylor, as far as been a marquee fighter, because he can't keep on looking the way he has in his last few fights and expect to make the money that a good fighter can make from PPV.

silk degrees
07-21-2007, 12:38 AM
Hello Frank

Hope you are are well these days. Frank yes you are very correct about Taylor not looking good, and with the big money looming, he needs to step it up a bit. Frank you know even better than me what happened to Cassius Clay prior to the first Liston fight, people feared for his safety in the ring. We all know how this turns out with Clay, basically he stepped it up after some lackluster performances. People are counting out Taylor, all I am trying to say is this kid Pavlik got more holes in his arson than a little bit. He is a dangerous fighter yes, but I am not ready to say he is the next Carlos Monzon. We in society throw the word "great" around with much frequency, without any substance behind it. I like what Pavlik brings to the table, and I love this being a big fight, God knows we can use something in boxing to hang our hats on. Frank I just want folks to start looking at fighters for what they are, longevity will tell the story on Pavlik. I get peeved when folks just stamp guys in the hall based on piss ass performances, or against inferior competition. Let history spell out Pavlik's suppossed greatness, not the hot dog eating, beer sipping guy who knows nothing about boxing

hagler04
07-23-2007, 06:38 PM
Taylor has always fought like he might be a little chinny. This fight will show us if that is true or not. I was confident picking Miranda over Pavlik and was wrong.

But still, I have a hunch Taylor is going to take care of business vs the lanky Mid-westerner. All of those rounds with Wright and Hopkins must have taught Jermain something. And Pavlik still looked a little stiff and slow to me vs Miranda (who was even slower), even in a thrilling fight.

kikibalt
08-01-2007, 02:02 PM
"Bad Intention" Taylor!! He hasn't had a bad intention bone in his body since he started wearing silk shorts.

Roberto Aqui
08-01-2007, 02:16 PM
Has Taylor ever been down before?

Pavlik?

Hmmm, should be interesting.

PeteLeo
08-01-2007, 04:57 PM
Pavlik's been down several times, but he's always gotten up quickly and -- unless I'm mistaken -- OK'd the man who dropped him. I don't believe Taylor's been on the floor as a pro. PeteLeo.

OMG65
08-06-2007, 03:13 PM
I really have never seen Taylor fight so I ask this question:
For those who have seen Taylor fights with the opponent coming after him instead of running and boxing,how has Taylor fared?Styles make fights.Is it possible Pavlik's straight ahead style might play into Taylors hands?

Roberto Aqui
08-06-2007, 03:50 PM
Taylor hasn't faced a big, strong, active prime type contender who can punch. He's faced welter/jr middles moving up. Hopkins past prime can only fight in spurts, and Wright a safety first type of fighter.

So, we don't know how either guy will react to the best each has seen. I'm still cogitatin' though.

mike 5150
08-07-2007, 10:06 PM
I've only seen Pavlik fight once. But the one time I did see him, he looked better than Taylor did in his last four fights. Maybe he is overrated. But Taylor has looked boring and mediocre. It's kind of hard to see how this one will go. But if Pavlik's even half as good as some think, Taylor can kiss his title goodbye.

diggity
08-07-2007, 11:44 PM
Taylor is no slouch but I simply do not see him being able to keep Pavlik off him or down & I can see Pavlik catching Taylor & hurting him badly. Pavlik is more green in my book but this is not a fight where Taylor's natural athleticism will bail him out. Pavlik will not allow this to be a posing match as he will throw with little concern of the incoming unlike most of Taylor's previous opponents. I question whether he could have kept Miranda off had they fought.

Husker
09-07-2007, 09:40 PM
I know I'm in the minority here but I feel that those picking Pavlik, at least in part, see him winning because he's the more exciting fighter and he did look better against Miranda than Jermain has, well, maybe ever.

I'm going with Taylor and I feel more and more confident the closer this gets to happening. Jermain is noticeable faster, more agile and more athletic, imo. His biggest fault that I can see is that he often stops to think, which at this stage of his career is puzzling. This isn't some 21 year old kid fresh from the amateurs after all.

Pavlik can bang, though and seems to take a pretty good shot. I believe Pavlik today hits much harder than Hopkins did when he first fought Taylor and he stunned him badly. But Hopkins is crafty and Taylor was fading in his first exposure to the brightest of lights. I don't think that happens here.

I see Jermain, picking and choosing the spots he engages and using his advantages to the fullest. If he has trained for the long haul, I think he'll have Kelly going or on the verge of it late.

Jermain taylor TKO10 Kelly Pavlik.

Husker
09-08-2007, 01:16 PM
Yeah, I know Mr. B. I went back eight pages where it should be and gave up. Just happened to stumble on it.

Sad, the middleweight championship generating this little buzz.

gregbeyer
09-09-2007, 01:41 AM
or taylor could suddenly fight like a mongose with his back to a tree trunk. i think pavlik wins it but ....stranger things have happened and i would not go betting the farm....
greg

BDeskins
09-11-2007, 06:39 AM
I'm picking Pavlik to win by knockout!!

I've liked this kid every since I first saw him and I picked him to handle Edison Miranda fairly easily. Taylor will be his toughest fight, but in the end I think Pavlik is all around a better fighter. Taylor's only superior in defense, which he is not a lot better in that regard, but I think Pavlik will bust him up and eventually stop him late!

hagler04
09-11-2007, 10:06 AM
I still say Taylor steps up to the plate and takes it in a great fight. One thing I'd worry about is stamina as Taylor tired in his other tough scraps vs Wright and Hopkins, but if anyone should tire more it's the gangly 6'2 kid (who I still don't know how he makes 160).

BDeskins
09-11-2007, 11:21 AM
But the problem for Taylor now is that Wright and Hopkins were neither big hitters. Pavlik is a huge hitter and he seems to have all assets that is found in champions...especially his durability, skill and power...not to mention his confidence. I may be wrong, but I think Pavlik may turn out to be one of those special kind of fighters!

hagler04
09-11-2007, 02:02 PM
But the problem for Taylor now is that Wright and Hopkins were neither big hitters. Pavlik is a huge hitter and he seems to have all assets that is found in champions...especially his durability, skill and power...not to mention his confidence. I may be wrong, but I think Pavlik may turn out to be one of those special kind of fighters!

You may be right. I was dead-wrong about the Miranda fight (though I thought both guys looked rather sloppy in that fight). I'm cautiously picking the more proven and experienced Taylor (who will be facing for the first time in a long time someone who's relatively easy to hit and a big target, something some fans forget) but would not be shocked if Pavlik wins.

Dan Gunter
09-11-2007, 10:42 PM
I have never been sold on Taylor. I have not seen tremendous power out of him, and he does not appear to have great balance.

I'm a fan of Pavlik, whose last few fights have sold me on him.

But I'm still on the fence about this one. Taylor at least went 24 rounds with Hopkins, who showed that he still has something left in his last two fights.

So I'm going with a really gonzo "Gee, guys, I just ain't sure" on this one.

rocky111
09-18-2007, 07:07 PM
Pavlick is awesome in a power fight and if you stand in front of him, he kills you. Miranda did that and he got nailed over and over. Pavlick also has a fine chin. He is also physically strong. So if Taylor FIGHTS HIM he will lose by a ko. But if he moves and moves and boxes and jabs and keeps his chin out of danger, I favor him. But if he moves into the wheelhouse of Pavlick its good by. Tony Zale, Jermain Taylor aint. I say though he moves and boxes and then its up to Pavlick to show us he is a real complete fighter. I favor Taylor but I root for Kelley as I feel his vic would be great for boxing.

HE Grant
09-23-2007, 05:09 PM
I just caught the HBO promo for this fight and I ask you guys ; does Pavlik really have a shot or is he simply another well marketed fighter with the right complexion? They play up one victory of his. Who else has he beaten? How is his chin? Does he cut up easily? Does anyone know how Taylor beat him as an amateur?

Taylor has not looked great but most fail to acknowledge that he twice fought Hopkins on even terms, he fought Wright on even terms, he beat former welter champ and tough cutey Spinks ... Why does Pavlik even belong in the ring with him let alone on such a hyped fight? Can I ask, white hope?

diggity
09-23-2007, 06:59 PM
On paper Pavlik does not stack up to Taylor whatsoever but on paper Taylor lacks an opponent like Pavlik. Someone with Pavlik's style is a potential nightmare for Taylor's style and I think the lack of fighting an opponent like Pavlik will cost Taylor at this point in the game. Pavlik is ripe to be taken apart by someone with exceptional movement & speed but other than Taylor being reasonably quick & possessing a nice jab, he is not all that above average. Taylor's made his paydays fighting champs that are over the hill & not fighting young lions like himself. He will have a very hard time with Pavlik's pressure & power. Pavlik may not look pretty doing it but I think he will KO Taylor ultimately. I doubt Taylor can stay out of harms way longer than 7 rounds & I dont think Taylor has enough power to bother Pavlik.

newpoppop
09-23-2007, 10:18 PM
I think this has the makings of a good scrap. Taylor only fights as hard as he has to to win. Pavlik will pressure him, but may not be able to land on a much quicker guy than Miranda. If Pavlik gets to him early, he'll win by KO. If it goes rounds, I pick Taylor by a close decision.

Julian Jackson
09-25-2007, 01:53 PM
There are so many good posts on this website about classic fights and fantasy match-ups. But people are being awfully quiet about sharing their opinions on what is (at least in my opinion) a highly anticipated contest between two worthy fighters who are not past their primes.

I admit that this is a tough fight to handicap. On one hand you have power, agression, and toughness of Pavlik, and on the other hand you have the skill and better experience of Taylor.

Taylor defeated Pavlik in the amateurs, but I do believe that Pavlik has come along much further from the amateur ranks than Taylor has. I have not seen ANY evidence that Emmanuel Steward has helped Taylor in any way, shape, or form. Taylor will still have an edge in skill, speed, and natural ability, but he has never fought anybody that I can remember (Bernard Hopkins included) that really brought the fight to him. And make no mistake about it, this natural ability of Taylor is not anything like what Roy Jones used to bring to the ring. This agressive style of Pavlik will certainly make him more susceptible to be hit himself, but I believe if it goes more than 3-4 rounds, that agression will wear on Taylor. I have never been impressed with Taylor's mental toughness or ring intelligence. I am not saying that he is not a very good fighter...because he is. But the ability to dig deep and come on strong when it matters is what seperates the true champions from just "good" fighters. In his last several fights, he has done nothing to close the show against opponents who he should have easily beaten. (In fact, I had Hopkins squeaking out a victory in both fights. Had Hopkins not conserved energy in the beginning of both those fights, there is no question in my mind he would have won them going away. Since Hopkins was 41 years of age at the time, I excused him for this reasonable strategy. I cannot extend such a courtesy for a fighter who should be in his physical prime)

Pavlik may indeed have a number of flaws, but they are at least crowd-pleasing ones. At the end of the day, I think he wants this fight more, and will wear down the cautious Taylor after some potentially shaky moments in the first few rounds.

Julian Jackson
09-27-2007, 02:22 PM
Although it may still be too early to tell how good (or not good) Pavlik is, Emmanuel Steward"s preposterous comments above are making me lean even more strongly towards a Pavlik upset on Saturday.

Emmanuel Steward is usually a man of few words before a fight. But the comments he has made in this fight are so ludicrous, that they just can't be ignored. First he indicates that he has Taylor in better shape than J.C. Chavez, Oscar De La Hoya, and Wladamir Klitschko when he trained them. I sure hope so, because all three of them demonstrated SERIOUS, fight altering conditioning problems under Steward. By the time he trained Chavez, Julio was in serious decline, so I don't think there was much that could be done. (As a sidenote, in his prime, Chavez's conditioning was always incredible....in spite of his party habits). But De La Hoya was in his prime when Steward took over, and I believe all of his losses are primarily due to conditioning. As for Klitschko, I have two words: Lamon Brewster.

As Steward continues his comments, they only become more ridiculous. He actually goes on to say that "Surar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, and SUGAR RAY ROBINSON! want no part of Taylor." Is this the same Jermain Taylor that drew with junior middleweight Winky Wright, struggled with junior middleweight Kassim Ouma (who 5 months earlier was HAMMERED by limited Roman Karmazin), and squeked by welterwight Corey Spinks? Comparing Jermain Taylor to the all time greats is so laughable that it really doesn't deserve further comment.

It sounds to me like Emmanuel Steward is talking up Taylor so Taylor will actually believe he is not going to get a whipping on Saturday. Because this type of talk is out of character for Steward, it just doesn't ring true with me. On Saturday, I don't think it is going to ring true with Taylor either, and hopefully a new champion (who doesn't mind fighting) is crowned.

TDKO
09-27-2007, 02:33 PM
In the HBO "Countdown to Taylor Pavlik", near the end of the show Pavlik
gives the key statement as to why he will win this fight, (I believe), "Because
he is hungrier".
Taylor has the wealth and fame, even if he has not lived up to expectations,
he has the good life, and his place in boxing history may not be his motivation, at least not anymore.
Pavlik wants what Taylor has.
Sometimes matches like this come down to hunger, they are both talented,
in or near their primes, who wants it more and why?

rocky111
09-27-2007, 02:52 PM
good point. If its a war that has to be considered and it means alot. I think Taylor will move and move and move. He trades and he dies. He has to pull teeth from Pavlick first. If he doesnt hell lose.

HE Grant
09-27-2007, 02:58 PM
I'm just curious about how good Taylor really is. On one hand he fought even with Hopkins and Wright. Say what you want but those are still two very top guys and he was right there with them, having more natural ability at this time than either. However, ring history is filled with guys that based on amateur background and physical skills you would expect to be great but do not turn out that way...something is just missing ... guys like Johnny Bumphis, Bernard Taylor, Mark Breland and even Andrew Maynard come to mind.

Taylor may simply be a very good but not great fighter despite what appears to be great skills. I know nothing about Pavlik at all except HBO's hype for the fight but if he is as tough as toughted, if his chin holds, if his skin does not bust up, if he really has this great power, drive and stamina it will tell us a lot about Taylor. If Pavlik's turns out to be a 2007, middleweight version Gerry Cooney, that's another story.

It's interesting that Manny is talking so much here. It's not his style. It appears something has caught his eye somewhere and he's trying to motivate Taylor. I don't believe he has any reason to make Pavlik look bad. Why would he? It would diminish the luster off a huge Taylor win and all Manny's own accomplishment. Something is up and we'll see Saturday night.

OMG65
09-27-2007, 03:34 PM
I can't see this one going the distance.
Admittedly I don't know much about Taylor but I do know that he will have to deal with the pressure Pavlik is going to put on him.Pavlik is Youngstown tough and he will go out on his shield if he has to.Not so sure about Taylor.This fight has the makings of a real good tussle.

hagler04
09-27-2007, 05:56 PM
Steward in recent years has always talked up a bunch of BS to build up confidence in his often self-esteem challenged yet physically talented fighters. I remember him saying before Klitschko fought cruiserweight journeyman Eliseo Castillo that Castillo was a tougher opponent than Chris Byrd. He's been saying similar things regarding Cintron recently and how Kermit easily dominates all the other welters right now.

Taylor has natural cockiness but the criticism after his performances vs Wright, Ouma, and Spinks have affected him no question.

Julian Jackson
09-28-2007, 10:15 AM
Are you F***ing kidding me? I am looking very much forward to this fight tomorrow, but to insinuate it is even in the top 100 most significant middleweight title fights of all time is ridiculous. In this day and age there are lots of fighters with undefeated records. (And it certainly helps if they give you a title shot in your 22nd bout). Had they fought in a different era, it certainly wouldn't have stayed that way for long. Just my opinion.

Come on Pavlik, please end this pretender's reign!

DscribeDC
09-28-2007, 11:02 AM
Hey, I'm excited. A good, tough, evenly-matched non-PPV title fight that hasn't been cancelled because someone stubbed his toe or couldn't make weight.

Maybe I'm easy, but that's plenty for me! Bring it on!

Punchdrunk
09-28-2007, 01:19 PM
Gotta go with the blue collar guy, looking for the upset. Pavlik, mid round ko.
Gary

Julian Jackson
09-28-2007, 01:42 PM
OK, now that I read the full article, and not just the snipet from above, I agree that it was at least a good insigtful column.

Now let's just hope we get the fight we are expecting.

p.s. I would still like to hear more people weighing in on their picks before the fight, rather than just discussing the aftermath.

Crold1
09-28-2007, 06:34 PM
Nixon: Thanks.

JJ: Thanks...for reading. I would disagree though...this fight could one day very well be at least a top 100 middleweight title fight. Time will tell...love to see the other 100 you'd put first though as of now. :)

HE Grant
09-28-2007, 07:24 PM
I really know next to nothing about Pavlik but I do feel Taylor has a ton to bring , has fought the best in the world and would be surprised to see him lose ...

diggity
09-28-2007, 07:26 PM
I thought it was a solid piece Cliff. The Nunn JT comparison was right on.

Crold1
09-28-2007, 07:38 PM
Gracias...did you hit the interview link prior to the pick section...that was fun to do. :)

ShawnTheBleeder
09-28-2007, 08:37 PM
I think Taylor is going to run and box his ears to a UD. I'm pulling for Pavlick, but it's too good to be true to have him actually win the title. That would be too cool.
Shawn

Southpaw1982
09-28-2007, 11:23 PM
I believe Pavlik will win inside the distance tomorrow night, and most likely before the 10th round. Pavlik has been in with bigger punchers and fighters than Taylor has, and he took the best they had to offer and knocked them out.

I am aware however that bigger puncher does not necessarily mean better fighter, but then again who did Taylor fight before he got his title shot? An old and over the hill Joppy and Marquez, and a C-level fighter at best in Edouard.... not exactly a who`s who of the middleweight divsion now is it.

Taylor doesn`t hit harder than some of Pavlik`s previous opponents, and I don`t believe he hits hard enough to discourage Kelly from coming to him to get his own pound of flesh in. Taylor`s habit of backing himself into the ropes by anyone who applys pressure and cuts the ring off effectively on him will be his downfall in this fight.

If smaller fighters such as Wright and Ouma could back Taylor into the ropes, I don`t see why a stronger and bigger fighter in Pavlik wouldn`t be able to do it, and keep it up for longer. I am convinced Pavlik woud have stopped Ouma and Spinks had they fought, and might have well beaten Wright if given the chance.

Pavlik is the hungrier and tougher fighter of the two, as well as the harder puncher, and I believe that will be the difference in the end. And if he somehow doesn`t knock Taylor out, his workrate would likely earn him the decision.

I also believe HBO is hoping for a Pavlik win, as he is far more marketable than Taylor who I believe has fallen out of favour with the network due to his recent performances. Pavlik is a pressure fighter who can punch like nobody`s business and makes for good fights, which is a far cry from what Taylor has been.

Just my 0.02$

GorDoom
09-29-2007, 12:14 PM
Once again stalwart CBZ board member, Zev, has volunteered to cover the fight for us. For that he definitely gets a Tip O' The Fedora!

Please keep all discussion of this card to this thread. Redundant threads will be deleted.

thanks,

GorDoom

KOJOE90
09-29-2007, 06:23 PM
Still can't make my mind up on this one, so here goes....

Pavlik on points due to being the busier fighter and scoring a knockdown or two along the way.

Ron Lipton
09-29-2007, 07:30 PM
When they play the hi lite tonight of the Pavlik V Miranda fight, it will be my first good look at that demolition job. Taylor is listed as 6'1 and Kelly at 6'2, just an incredible era for tall middleweights. What will they really weigh in that ring?

Taylor although unpopular with his close decision wins with Hopkins and his draw with Winky has hung in there with the best of the division although not in spectacular fashion.

The blow out of Miranda cannot be taken lightly but other than that Pavlik has not had the opportunity to show his potential with a great fighter.

Taylor must as Tom says show it now or never, champ or not and it looks like Pavlik has the height and tools to make him rumble. Taylor just might surprise people tonight with his skill and durability unless Pavlik can hurt him and keep him hurt. I have to see more of Pavilik to make an accurate analysis, but that Miranda KO was a big surprise.

He does not look strong at all and for the Zone family to be that impressed with him impresses me.

Ron

kikibalt
09-29-2007, 07:58 PM
I'm going with Pavlik on this one, true he hasn't been in big fights like Taylor, but I think he is going to be too tough and rough for Taylor, Taylor hasn't show me that he has that fire in the belly, a la SRL or others of that ilk.

theironbar
09-29-2007, 09:09 PM
Did my eyes deceive me or has Pavlik not gone past the 9th round of a fight?

Still, my gut says Pavlik by stoppage before the end of the 8th, or a close but fair decision win.

Zevl
09-29-2007, 10:12 PM
Early results from Atlantic City:

Middleweight Ronald Hearns (16-0, 13 KOs) needed just 2:42 to demolish Robert Kamya (16-8, 4 KOs). Hearns dropped Kamya twice before the bout was waved off.

Heavyweight prospect Chazz Witherspoon (20-0, 14 KOs) dominated Ron Guerrero (19-15-3, 13 KOs) until the doctor stopped the bout between the fifth and sixth rounds.

Former world title challenger Omar Sheika (27-8, 18 KOs) ended a competitive fight with an explosive left hook in the fourth round that knocked out Tiwon Taylor (26-14-1, 19 KOs) at the 2:24 mark of a light heavyweight bout.

In a big upset, heavyweight Robert Hawkins (21-9, 7 KOs) ended a five-fight losing streak with a unanimous decision over Terry Smith (30-3, 18 KOs). Scores were 60-54, 59-55, 58-56. No knockdowns.

Nine months after his devastating loss to Miguel Cotto, WBA #4 welterweight Carlos Quintana (24-1, 19 KOs) returned to stop Christopher Henry (23-19, 17 KOs) in round four. An uppercut rocked Henry and the bout was stopped at 2:46.

Super middleweight Richard Pierson (5-1, 3 KOs) scored a fifth round TKO over Ray Smith (7-2, 2 KOs). Time was 2:58. Smith was down in round two.

Junior middleweight Ronney Vargas (2-0, 1 KO) used Bruce Burkhardt (0-2) as a punching bag for four rounds, winning 40-36 on all cards.

apollack
09-29-2007, 10:32 PM
Good evening everyone,

First up is Andre Berto vs. David Estrada

Referee is David Fields


Round One

The fighters start out by jabbing. Estrada lands a left hook. Estrada is aggressive and is forcing the action. Estrada lands another left hook. Berto landing some nice hard jabs. Estrada's round.

Round Two

Berto looks more aggressive this round, lands numerous hard jabs. Berto trying to land off the jabs but not much is landing. Berto finally lands a nice right hand off the jab. Estrada lands a nice right hand along the ropes. Close round, I'll give it to Berto.

Round Three

Estrada lands a couple of left hoks in close, to start the round. Berto more willing to exchange in this round. Berto lands a couple of nice uppercuts. Left hook lands for Berto, backs up Estrada. They trade hooks to the body. Berto finishes the round very strong, landing both upstairs and downstairs. Berto's round.

Round Four

Rounds starts the same as the last. Berto opening up and landing punches. Estrada backs Berto to ropes and lands to body. Berto lands a left to the body. Berto backs Estrada to a corner and flurries. Estrada not as aggressive. Berto's round.

Round Five

Estrada immediately backs Berto to a corner and flurries, but not much is landing for him. Berto really puts his punches together in the middle of the ring, landing lots of punches. Great left hook to the body by Berto. Estrada lands a left hook. Left hook-right cross combination stuns Estrada at the end of the round. Berto's round.

Round Six

Berto really starting to dominate. Estrada has done less and less as the fight has gone on. Left hook by Estrada. Berto making Estrada miss, land a nice right hand. Estrada backs Berto to the ropes and lands some meaningful punches. Berto backing up Estrada consistently now. Better round for Estrada but still Berto's round.

Round Seven

Berto jabbing alot to begin the round. Estrada just not doing enough work now. Berto is controlling the action and the fight. Beautiful right hand by Berto lands flush. Berto's round.

Round Eight

Estrada bulls Berto to the ropes and lands a couple nice lefts to the body. After about a minute, Estrada really slows down. Berto flurries and lands some nice combinations. Estrada looks like he's almost done. Amazingly, Estrada comes to life and lands a few punches along the ropes. Berto flurries towards the end of the round. A good round that I'll give to Berto.

Round Nine

Berto landing a right uppercut with frequency. Estrada looks tired, Berto lands numerous punches while Estrada is pinned to the ropes. Estrada holding, crowd boos. Berto dominating this round, Estrada looks exhausted. Nice right hand backs Estrada up. Easy round for Berto.

Round Ten

Much of the same this round, Berto is dominating. Nice right hand lands by Berto. Estrada lands a couple nice left hooks to the body. Estrada does his best work from there, unfortunately it's too few and far between. Much the same this round. Berto's round.

Round Eleven

Berto flurries to begin the round. Uppercut and right hand floors Estrada. After the follow up flurry by Berto, referee stops the fight. Berto was impressive, in a tough fight against a tough guy.

Great fight. Berto proved a lot. Entertaining fighter. Only problem with Berto is he's short, and he needs defensive work. His head is straight up and he's hittable. Might get KO'd by a big puncher. But he's fun to watch.

David Fields did a nice job as ref. Didn't break them too soon. Let them work out of clinches. Stoppage could have been a tad sooner though.

Zevl
09-29-2007, 11:39 PM
Main Event


Referee is Steve Smoger


Round One

Taylor begins the round by throwing a big right hand. They trade jabs. Pavlik starting to land the jab, using his longer reach. Taylor lands a left hand but Pavlik responds with a nice right hand. Pavlik lands a nice combination, starting to get to Taylor. Pavlik finding a home with the right hand. Pavlik's round on my scorecard.

Zevl
09-29-2007, 11:43 PM
Round Two

They trade rights to begin the round. Pavlik backing Taylor up, but Taylor downs Pavlik with right hand follwed by combo. Taylor flurries and Pavlik on shaky legs. Pavlik ties Taylor up, Pavlik getting his legs back. Taylor looks a bit tired. Taylor's round by two points.

Kurant
09-29-2007, 11:45 PM
That, right there in round 2 will be there all night for Taylor. I said it from the start, Pavlik will be there for Taylor to tee off on.

Zevl
09-29-2007, 11:47 PM
Round Three

Pavlik lands a right hand to begin round, backs Taylor into corner. Taylor lands a counter right. Pavlik coming forward landing right hands. Pavlik backs Taylor into corner with combo and flurries. Good action as Taylor comes back and gets out of corner. Pavlik's round.

Zevl
09-29-2007, 11:51 PM
Round Four

Pavlik coming forward once again at the beginning of the round. Taylor lands low with a left, gets warning. Pavlik backs Taylor into corner once again, but gets out quickly. Yaylor lands a right-left combo. Pavlik backs Taylor to the ropes with right hand. Left hook for Taylor. Close round, I'll give to Pavlik because he was more aggressive.

Zevl
09-29-2007, 11:55 PM
Round Five

Pavlik landing jab consistently and follows with right hands. Taylor lands a big right hand. Taylor is more explosive and flashy but Pavlik keeps coming forward and lands meaningful punches. Slower round from both. Taylor lands a couple of jabs. Pavlik's round.

Zevl
09-29-2007, 11:59 PM
Round Six

Pavlik backs Taylor into corner but doesn't land anything. Left hook by Taylor followed by body shots. Another left by Taylor lands. Right hand backs Taylor to ropes. Another right by Pavlik followed by uppercut. Taylor lands a one-two. Right hand lands for Taylor after he is backed into ropes by Pavlik. Taylor's round.

TheSentinel
09-30-2007, 12:01 AM
Gee, I think Taylor's winning 58-56

TheSentinel
09-30-2007, 12:03 AM
Wow, Taylor looked like zertuche!

Zevl
09-30-2007, 12:06 AM
Round Seven

Pavlik lands a bodyshot. Pavlik landing his jab once again. Pavlik's jab is controlling the action in this round. Right hand hurts Taylor, backs Taylor into corner and follow-up flurry ends fight with Taylor slumped to canvas. Great fight, Pavlik is the real deal. He's a machine, comes forward and throws lots of punches. Very impressive, Pavlik's gonna be tough to beat. The judges had Tayor up by 3 and 4 points, what a joke, horrible judging.

kenmore
09-30-2007, 12:07 AM
Sounds like an incredible, sudden knockout win for Pavlik. Explosive.

Dan Gunter
09-30-2007, 12:07 AM
Wow! Wow! Wow!

Kurant
09-30-2007, 12:09 AM
Good fight, till it ended...

He was there all night for Taylor to tee off on, but Taylor should think about keeping his hands up at some point in his career.

Good fight, hope it happens again. I'm sure there is a rubbermatch in there.

Zevl
09-30-2007, 12:12 AM
Good fight, till it ended...

He was there all night for Taylor to tee off on, but Taylor should think about keeping his hands up at some point in his career.

Good fight, hope it happens again. I'm sure there is a rubbermatch in there.



I'll be honest with you. Other than the 2nd round, I thought Pavlik was winning handily. I think if they fought again, nothing would change. I don't think it'd get to a rubbermatch.

HE Grant
09-30-2007, 12:16 AM
Holy sh-t ... what a fight and what an ending ... This kid had every reason in the world to let it slip away but he has the heart of a warrior and realy ko power ... this guy is a reincarnation of Marciano at middleweight ... Taylor gave it his all, fought like a champ all the way but simply got beat ... I'm watching him in the post fight interview and Taylor looks completely mentally crushed from a confidence standpoint ...

bomma
09-30-2007, 12:21 AM
I LOVE BOXING!! So much for that white hope crap that people were saying. How about the scores, what bull! Kelly was wining the whole time.

I feel bad for Taylor who is a great guy but I don't think he has been improving under Manny Stewards tutelage. He used to be a guy who threw a bunch of jabs now he is a free swinger.

Anyway Great fight! Kelly is going to be hard for anyone to fight and people better not underestimate him. He doesn't look that great but he is very very good.

Chuck1052
09-30-2007, 12:22 AM
HBO put on two terrific fights tonight. Kudos to Kelly
Pavick, Jermain Taylor, Andre Berto and David Estrada
for making this evening a memorable one.

- Chuck Johnston

bomma
09-30-2007, 12:26 AM
Watch the fight on replay an notice how many shots Kelly blocked with his glove in front of his face. He was also consistently beating Taylor to the punch with his jab. The kid doesn't look that smooth but he also has heavy hands you can tell. The real deal. Love to see that fight again. Fight of the year I think.

Husker
09-30-2007, 12:28 AM
Congrats to Kelly Pavlik. I picked Taylor to beat him and think he was winning, not like the judges had it but he was ahead, imo. I'll go on record right now as saying Taylor wins the rematch in a much less exciting battle. The advantages Taylor STILL has over Pavlik could make it relatively easy for him. Hard, for me anyway, to root against either one of these guys, at the core they seem like good guys.

Question: "Gene Williams", a judge in the Berto fight wouldn't be the supposedly banned "Eugenia" of the Lewis-Holyfield draw fiasco, would it?

kikibalt
09-30-2007, 12:28 AM
Both guys fought a great fight, I pick Pavlic to win, but I have to say that he has to learn to follow through with his left after he throws his right, up until the end he was just throwing that old one-two.

bomma
09-30-2007, 12:31 AM
I think in a rematch without the knock down Pavlic will beat him handily, however I don't think Taylor will opt for a rematch to tell you the truth.

Ron Lipton
09-30-2007, 12:35 AM
Incredible ending.

I actually thought Taylor won the first round and was shocked to see how careless Pavlik was in the second round by dropping his hands and getting hit with shots he never should have taken. The fact he got through that was amazing and showed tremendous determination and heart and in shape recovery power. Using that sledgehammer on those tires I truly believe paid off for his kind of strength.

Taylor seemed to be doing much better than he was getting credit for on the air but Pavlik used his jab and straight right effectively while going to the body well too.

Smoger was getting bumped into a bit and could not seem to get out of the way effectively being too out of shape. At times he would step in at the wrong time, but basically it went ok.

Believe me when I tell you this, it is INCREDIBLY lucky for Smoger that Taylor did not try to rise because Steve NEVER should have stood over him like that stopping it instantly, he should have stepped back and started to count just in case Taylor attempted to get up. It worked out ok for all but he stepped in too quick without knowing he would or would not TRY to rise while TOTALLY blocking that possibility, I have rarely seen such a move before.

Look at the replay, the punches did not seem like all time show stopping hard shots either and on the replay the right hand had no real kick to it but was pushed out nice but with no real snap, it did the job fine though and the follow up lefts were slapping but punishing. I thought he would get up but
it was an accumulative effect.

Taylor always a gentleman and a great win for Kelly and family.

Terrific effort and great win for all the guys who stayed with Pavlik from the beginning. Amazing surprise.

bomma
09-30-2007, 12:38 AM
I don't think Kelly's shot look that great but I think they hit really heard, he has that long skinny deceptive strength. Kind of like Monzon.

kikibalt
09-30-2007, 12:42 AM
I don't think Kelly's shot look that great but I think they hit really heard, he has that long skinny deceptive strength. Kind of like Monzon.

He (Pavlic) reminds me a lot of Danny "Lil Red" Lopez.

apollack
09-30-2007, 12:44 AM
I only gave Taylor 2 rounds, 3 at the most. Kelly's jab kept him up on points. It landed so solidly and consistently. And he was sneaking in occasional rights to the jaw that had underrated effect. Jermain was surprised at how far away Kelly could hit him. Kelly should have stayed on him in the corners more and worked the body a lot more, because the few left hooks he landed, I really thought he took the wind out of Jermain. I analogize this to Foreman-Moorer in the sense that when you get hit that cleanly and solidly, it has a cumulative effect. Taylor got hit way too cleanly and solidly every round by those jabs, which actually backed him up.

Taylor was throwing from way too far away, and looked overly amped and tight early. After the knockdown round, he was trying to take big rests and then occasionally explode with a right or hook or a flurry and try to test Kelly. However, Pavlik got smarter and started pumping that jab in better, moved his head and rolled slightly better, and when he wanted to take a break, stepped back a bit better. His biggest problem was when he stepped into range without throwing or when he was done, not stepping back and jabbing.

Bottom line is that relatively light punchers like Wright and Hopkins were able to nail Taylor, back him up, so when a stiff puncher like Pavlik hits you consistently, it's going to break you. Taylor's defensive liabilities got even more exposed because he was in there with a guy with a lot of height and reach and more power than he'd ever seen as a pro.

Elwill7847
09-30-2007, 12:50 AM
I had Pavlik winning 4 rounds to 2 rounds...up by 1 point.

bomma
09-30-2007, 12:52 AM
apollack the Foreman comparison is a good one and actually when you think about it Foreman when you watch him doesn't look that quick or that smooth but he hits hard I would say same for Pavlik

kenmore
09-30-2007, 01:04 AM
Taylor reports that he thought he was losing the fight in the middle rounds, and as a result he made the mistake of not allowing himself to relax enough. I read this on ABC.

apollack
09-30-2007, 01:08 AM
He thought he was losing because he was losing, despite what the judges say. Both he and Kelly thought Pavlik was winning, and that's how the judges should have had it.

Other than the knockdown round, Jermain was hardly landing, Kelly was rolling and dipping, and when Kelly landed, they were solid - right on the jaw. I was surprised Jermain took it as well and as long as he did, and quite frankly was impressed at how well he conned Kelly, because I thought he was hurt on a number of occasions from rights but played it off relatively well. Bottom line though, is the mind can be tough, but the body will give way if you keep getting hit that cleanly and consistently.

Dan Gunter
09-30-2007, 01:26 AM
Pavlik clearly and cleanly beat a tough fighter: a fighter who went 24 rounds with a still-dangerous Hopkins and 12 rounds with a very tough fighter in Wright.

Pavlik himself is perhaps still a work in progress. But I give him high marks for his toughness.

And, yes, I had him up at the time of the stoppage. Also, I think the stoppage was appropriate. In fact, I was screaming, "Stop the fight!" when Smoger stepped in.

kenmore
09-30-2007, 01:33 AM
It's impressive that Pavlik stormed back to win after being on the verge of a kayo defeat in round two. Might we have a new Matthew Saad Muhammad on our hands? Let's hope so.

apollack
09-30-2007, 01:36 AM
At first I thought he at least deserved a count. However, Taylor was getting hit with a lot of clean shots trapped up on the ropes, and there was one hook that made him momentarily go to sleep, just like when Zertuche just went limp for that split moment against Pavlik. When that happens, the fight needs to stop. Otherwise you can have a Griffith-Kid Paret situation. So, in the final analysis, you can't fault Smoger for jumping in there.

gregbeyer
09-30-2007, 01:50 AM
i did not see the fight ...but i did pick kelly.

anyone think this might do jermain some good?

greg

evander
09-30-2007, 01:51 AM
This fight was the way Leonard/Hagler should have went. Leonard , early out of the blocks ....then Hagler methodically moving forward wearing him down and stopping him later in the fight. I can dream can't I....? This was a great fight...don't think Taylor will use the rematch clause.

BDeskins
09-30-2007, 02:03 AM
I've been touting Pavlik for a good while now and picked him to easily beat Edison Miranda and I picked him to knock out Taylor as well. I think the kid can be a very special fighter if he stays on track.

PeteLeo
09-30-2007, 02:07 AM
It's impressive that Pavlik stormed back to win after being on the verge of a kayo defeat in round two. Might we have a new Matthew Saad Muhammad on our hands? Let's hope so.

Well, Pavlik doesn't take nearly as much sustained punishment as Saad seemed to in every fight, only to come back for a KO win. On the other hand, Kelly goes down a lot more than prime Saad did, too. I've seen Pavlik on the floor about five times now, and to his credit he has shown steel balls in getting up every time and knocking the opponent out. He appears to possess great self-confidence. Even after getting hammered in the second tonight, there didn't seem to be a moment that he wasn't convinced that he was going to wear down and wear out Taylor. It certainly wouldn't hurt him to hold his hands a little higher in the early rounds, however. PeteLeo.

BDeskins
09-30-2007, 02:20 AM
I missed the fight due to a fishing trip, so I'll have to watch the replay. I would typically be very upset that I missed the fight live, but I had the best fishing trip that I've had in a long, long time and caught some of the biggest largemouth bass that I've ever caught, so I cannot get to upset for missing the live fight!

Dan Gunter
09-30-2007, 02:40 AM
BDeskins: A man has to know where his priorities are!

Anyway, you can watch the replays. There's nothing like watching in real time--but there's nothing like having a big fish on line, either!

I'm interested in seeing how Taylor responds to this fight. In the postfight interview, he was clearly disappointed in his performance. But he clearly had doubts about himself before the fight. How does he respond now?

ricky
09-30-2007, 02:47 AM
Hell of a fight. I had Taylor up 57-56 at the time of the KO. Taylor let a golden opportunity pass him by in the second round. Pavlik IMO still has a major problem with keeping his hands up, especially after he fires off his one-two. He doesn't bring his handfs back up. He was wide open for counter hooks all night. Taylor was waitng for the right and landing some good counters. He did an excellent job picking up on Pavliks lack of variety and was winning two in a row IMO. In that last round Pavlik finally mixed it up, he did not throw his right as often and used mainnly his left. Taylor let his gaurd down for a moment and Pavlik exploded with that right hand. Hell of a finish.

I picked Pavlik in this one and I was confident in my pick. To be honest I am 50/50 on who wins the rematch after seeing this fight. I see too many flaws Taylor could come back and expose next time. Pavlik has just not cleaned up his defense like I would've liked to see for this one. If a few of punches don't miss inn that second round and maybe Taylor pulls away with an exciting win.

Pavlik is a hard puncher with a great heart though and he will be a tough figter to beat for anyone. I'm just not sure he can pull this off again, especially if it takes place at 166.

BDeskins
09-30-2007, 02:49 AM
This is what I was catching tonight!


http://i23.tinypic.com/v45phy.jpg


This one weighed right around 8 pounds,


http://i24.tinypic.com/5eh183.jpg

This one was between 7 and 8 pounds. My friend and I caught 17 in all and they were all in the 3 to 8 pound range, so it was a great night of fishing.

Sorry about posting this here, but I thought I would show why I was unable to watch the Pavlik-Taylor fight live!

PeteLeo
09-30-2007, 03:04 AM
That was the same expression Pavlik had while holding up the championship belt.

Do bass only come out at night? PeteLeo.

PeteLeo
09-30-2007, 03:06 AM
I wish HBO could have gotten a camera on Harry Aroyo, too. He may not have been Mancini, but he was an honest, solid workman and had his share of exciting performances (I still watch the Terrance Alli bout from time to time). PeteLeo.

diggity
09-30-2007, 03:53 AM
I doubt Taylor can stay out of harms way longer than 7 rounds :)
I also didnt think Taylor's power would bother Pavlik & boy was I wrong about that. I couldn't believe Taylor wasn't able to finish him off in the 2nd.

Pavlik will probably never make it look easy or pretty but he has all the right stuff to gets the job done regardless. There is something to be said about a guy who can get up off the canvas to KO the other guy again & again. You can't put a value on that trust & confidence in yourself.

Pavlik does not have all that many more flaws than Taylor IMO & I don't think Pavlik gets enough credit for his skills. His average speed, size & lankyness doesn't make for beautiful aesthetics but he is more than just a brute with a big punch. Taylor got hit with a lot of shots I didnt think he would get hit with & Pavlik was right in there boxing with Taylor after the KD. Pavlik did fall into some 1-2 ruts at points but I'm sure nerves came into play. I thought Taylor looked the fresher of the 2 but Pavlik will always be dangerous up till the last bell.

Although I had him losing close, Taylor fought with balls & earned a ton of respect back in this loss IMO. I don't see anything changing at 166 but Taylor should get right back into a rematch. He was very much in the fight & either guy could have been KOd. Its always interesting to see how a fighter comes back after a KO loss. I would have like to see Taylor have the opportunity to get up also but thats boxing. It was a good stoppage.


Good solid win for Berto tonight. He looked a little shaken in the first but he was in total control from that point onward. He's still a work in progress but a fun & explosive fighter to watch nonetheless.

ShawnTheBleeder
09-30-2007, 04:57 AM
I'm glad I was wrong. Was shocked to see Pavlik get rocked, for those who didn't see it he really had to dig down to survive Round 2. That's all Taylor talked about in the dressing room afterwards with Merchant, wasting to much energy trying to finish him early.

Ron, you're right on Smoger. Steve Smother is more like it. Taylor was done, but he did leave a window open, if Taylor's team were dicks they could have made Smother a scapegoat and ruined a great night for everyone because of one error in officiating.

Taylor rushed out of the ring immediately afterwards. I was surprised that he said he wanted Pavlik next. But what do you say? He was gracious in defeat.

Great to see a changing of the guard via TKO. And nobody beats Taylor on the cards, just ask Hopkins and Winky.
Shawn

Off The River
09-30-2007, 08:12 AM
Obvioulsy Mr Liptons eye is better trianed than mine, but I felt the stoppage was just. I thought he caught him with a really nice uppercut at one point and that was the one which put him down.
He may very well have prevented a brutal KO. Instead, Taylor will be much better off health wise.

HE Grant
09-30-2007, 08:51 AM
I have to disagree with Ron about the stopage shots...the first right hand distorted Taylor's face in a way I have not seen since Joe Walcott ... he was blasted by some terrific thunder...Pavlic simply has extremely heavy hands and he appears to retain power through out a fight opposed to losing it like a Foreman or Shavers.

I truly thought Taylor fought the best and bravest fight he could. He has his own champion's heart. He had Pav badly hurt in the second and tried his best but could not finiish him. In the middle rounds...maybe 4 - 6 it looked like he was beating him on ring generalship and overall skill. However, Pav is like a machine and keeps coming. He has a good , hard jab and slips more punches than it appears.

I don't know what Taylor can do in a rematch. If he tries to do a Terry Norris 2 vs Brown I don't know if he has the stamina or ability to keep Pav off him. To keep Pav off he has to trade and explode a bit like he did last night and we saw how that worked. I also do not think confidence wise he is coming back so quick. He looked lost in that post fight dressing room.

Julian Jackson
09-30-2007, 09:01 AM
HeGrant, et al,

I told you this was coming. Ironically, the knockout came after what was, in my opinion, one of Taylor's best performances. But you just can't teach heart. Pavlik showed it in spades, and as soon as he turned up the heat, Taylor folded. I do agree that a Terry Norris vs. Simon Brown strategy would be the smartest (and probably the only intelligent) strategy against Pavlik if they do get a rematch. Pavlik still has a number of glaring flaws (and paid dearly for getting too cute in round 2), but nobody can question his toughness. I have often questioned Taylor's, and finally he fought somebody who was willing to exploit it. I doubt Pavlok's reign will be particularly long, but I will always remember this victory fondly. (In spite of the heinous OSU Buckeye trunks)

Julian Jackson
09-30-2007, 09:07 AM
And Emmanuel Steward should not be let off the hook so easily, either. His pre and post-fight comments were ridiculous. He has certainly had a hand in the carrers of a lot of good fighters, but I have always felt him to be wildly overrated. (Does anybody remember Naseem Hamed's performance against Marco Antonio Barrera?)

OMG65
09-30-2007, 09:28 AM
Message to Arum if you're serious about salvaging boxing.
Get Pavliks first title defense most likely in Youngstown,on free network prime time TV.Hype the hell out of this guy and make him the biggest star in boxing.Maybe this will get the athletes who used to want to be fighters interested in the sport again.Strike while the irons hot.Kelly Pavlik might be boxings last chance to get off life support.

Nixon
09-30-2007, 10:17 AM
Obvioulsy Mr Liptons eye is better trianed than mine, but I felt the stoppage was just. I thought he caught him with a really nice uppercut at one point and that was the one which put him down.
He may very well have prevented a brutal KO. Instead, Taylor will be much better off health wise.

Taylor was finished. Smoger got in there at the right time.

Neither fighter is a "great fighter" but they have great hearts. They have some severe limitations which will not allow anyone to forget not only a prime Hopkins, but Toney, Sumbu Kalambay, Mike McCallum, Jackson, Nunn, McClelland, and other good middleweights of the last 20 years. A well prepared Herol Graham would beat both.

I'll give Taylor this. Wanting an immediate rematch after that brutal a ko shows guts. A rematch could conceivably end Taylor's career. He has a lot of pride.

kikibalt
09-30-2007, 10:33 AM
I hate to second guess Rod here, but I though Steve Smoger stopped the fight at the right time, when Taylor went down and the way he went down I got a flashback of the Griffith-Paret fight.

Two things
One, Taylor showed that he has the heart of a champion and went out like a champion.

Two, Pavlic not only has the heart of a champion, but that he is a great finisher.

hagler04
09-30-2007, 10:48 AM
Very good fight, glad to see it met expectations. Not an awful stoppage. I think Taylor deserved a standing 8 count but I don't think it would've made much of a difference. Pavlik def. has that deceptive strength from his lon gangly frame. His recuperative abilities were also VERY impressive, I thought he was done in the 2nd.

I do have to disagree strongly with Lederman's and several others' here scorecards. I had Taylor winning every round except two (I believe it was rds 3 and 6) on my scorecard (but two of those for Taylor could've been scored even so I can see a closer card) Pavlik had a few flurries when Taylor would let himself sit on the ropes but when they were in the center of the ring Taylor was working good quick counters and a beautiful double jab I hadn't see from him since the Hopkins fights. But I think two things really hurt Jermain: A lack of defence, and the fact that at 160 his stamina is really awful. The way that by round 3 he already had to rest on the ropes (as he did for Winky) says a lot. Taylor needs to move up to 168 to have a chance at any more longterm success. Oddly even though Pavlik is bigger he seems to have a much easier time at 160 . . .odd body type.

HE Grant
09-30-2007, 11:44 AM
I'd like to see Pav tighten up his D. IF he's been down 5 times as Peteleo says, he can be stopped. However, he stood in there with the best Taylor I've seen and took it ...

HBO must be giddy ... if promoted right, they have a new, better Gatti ...

mrbig1
09-30-2007, 12:39 PM
I'm still in a state of shock. I thought Pav was Tailor made for the champ. Not the first time I've been wrong.

Olympic Auditorium
09-30-2007, 12:40 PM
I think Pavlik was just too big and strong for Taylor.I knew Pavlik could hurt Taylor when in the 1st rd.,Pavlik threw a short hook on the inside,and hurt Talor .I beleive Taylor was complaining about a rabbit punch to the ref.That stunning jab that Pavlik threw was a key to victory in my opinion.Taylor was getting bullyed on the inside .Pavlik was sneaing punches in while being tied up and to my surprise Taylor wasnt doing anything about it.Pavlik was ahead on my cards,dont know what these judges were watching?

Ron Lipton
09-30-2007, 01:22 PM
The stoppage turned out to be OK because Taylor did not get up, I understand that.

The position the referee immediately put himself in by jumping in, standing and pinning Taylor to the floor could have turned out to be a bad mistake if he tried to rise.

Steve Smoger stopped it very fast and it turned out to be ok. Yet he could not have known for sure if Taylor could suck it up and arise, that is all I am saying, if you watch the film again.

If he started counting and it looked like the man was hurt and could not arise at 3 or 4 then stop it quickly, or if it is a KO like Tuv V Ruiz, then stop it immediately. Taylor was very strong before this happened so fast, and no one has a crystal ball to see how a fighter will react.

Taylor went down, Smoger jumped in and stopped it immediately by standing over him. All's well that ends well, no problem, stoppage turns out to be ok, but not the right move as opposed to stepping back, let the crowd see him, take a look a while counting and give him a second or two chance as the title is on the line.

Yet I have seen guys go down in a heap, e.g. like Jacobs in the last round against Whitiker, if I stood over him and prevented him from rising, he never would have made it to his feet to lose by a decision.

Richared Steele can explain all he wants for the next two decades but he stopped Taylor V Chavez in a bad bad way. This was different and turned out ok which I am glad for, but step back, wait a second before stopping it in a millisecond while standing over a guy who just might try to get up.

Thats all I'm saying.

Thanks,
Ron

Wing master
09-30-2007, 01:33 PM
I don't think Ron said that Smoger jumped in too soon. What I understood was Taylor wasn't given the opportunity to get up. Smoger stopped the fight instead of starting a count. I dont think Taylor would have gotten up, so it ended up allright.
I agree with Ron
Just my opinion

Randy

HE Grant
09-30-2007, 01:39 PM
Not to take anything away from Pav or even Taylor and maybe it's just me but didn't HBO and the team last night, from the announcers (very little) to the post fght ring announcer sound a little overjoyed that a white guy, and a white American at that, won the title in such a dramatic way? I mean from the claim of "one of the greatest middleweight fight's in history" to Merchant spending what felt like 15 minutes interviewing Pav postfight just seemed a bit over the top to me. I just don't feel Cory Spinks would have gotten the same attention.

I know all about the business side of the game and the right to go for it and I even can accept a white audience cheering for a white fighter just as blacks, asians, hispanics all do for their own, ect ... I'm just saying that the brass at HBO must have woken up with huge dollar side erections this morning ...

It will be interesting to see how the marketing and match ups for Pav developes from this point... I doubt he will be thrown to the lions like Taylor was, fighting every top guy all in a row ...

BDeskins
09-30-2007, 02:23 PM
>>>Do bass only come out at night? PeteLeo.<<<

No, but the bigger ones are caught in the fall. Though night fishing is very productive!


Now about the Pavlik-Taylor! I just watched the replay and it was a great fight. The judges again showed me that boxing needs a whole new group of boxing judges as they must have not been watching the fight!

It was a great fight, but it was not right behind Hagler-Hearns as one of the greatest...it was not equal to the Zale-Graziano trilogy either, but it was a great fight none the less…certainly one of the best fifty middleweight title bouts and quite possibly one of the twenty best!

A rematch at 166 will benefit Pavlik in my view and I believe that Pavlik will stop Taylor within five rounds at a higher weight. That is unless Taylor fights a purely tactical, defensive fight, then he may be able to last the distance. But then again, if he fights a purely defensive fight without throwing a lot of punches then Pavlik will just overwhelm him with all of the shots that Pavlik throws, but all-in-all the higher weight will be more to Pavlik's advantage in my opinion!

I would like to see Pavlik tighten up his defense, which if he can do that then he will likely hold the title for a number of years, or until he outgrows the division, which probably is not far off. Pavli will be a very strong super middleweight as well and right now he could very likely beat both Calzaghe and Kessler.

One thing for certain, I do not think that Pavlik will be a cheese champ! I think he will consistently fight tough opposition and I believe that he will consistently win and win impressively for several years to come as he is only 25 years old, so he certainly has time to improve.

A good friend of mine lives near Youngstown, so if Pavlik has some defenses of the title in, or near Youngstown I'll be ringside!

I think Pavlik can really boost boxing in a similar manner to the way Oscar De La Hoya has...as long as he continues to fight and win impressively...though I honestly do not think that Pavlik knows how to be a dull fighter!

kikibalt
09-30-2007, 02:55 PM
Just watch the fight again and kept score, at the end of six rounds I had Taylor wining the fight by a score of 58 to 55.

Ron Lipton
09-30-2007, 03:30 PM
I had Taylor ahead also.

PeteLeo
09-30-2007, 03:34 PM
I think Pavlik's opponents generally fall into the same category: guys who expect the lanky kid to tire late. Even though he has a lot of early KOs, from what I've seen the champ is a pretty decent distance man, grinding away round after round with his unspectacular but effective offense until the other man just can't keep up anymore.

In the five or six times Pavlik has been down, most have come in the first couple of rounds (round two appears particularly precipitous for Kelly), with the KD to McCart occurring latest, in the fourth or so. Looks to me that if you're going to beat him, go for it early. Once he gets into his rhythm, he's a "Terminator"-like monster. PeteLeo.

Nixon
09-30-2007, 04:00 PM
At the post-fight press conference Jermain Taylor said he thought he was losing the fight going into the 7th round. I had the fight 3 to 3 going into the seventh with Taylor up by a point. Lou DiBella and Emanuel Steward said Steve Smoger did a good job. Jermain Taylor did not complain about the stoppage.

Great action fight.

PeteLeo
09-30-2007, 04:07 PM
I doubt that Taylor even remembers the ending. PeteLeo.

HE Grant
09-30-2007, 04:58 PM
I hope they don't match him up with Calzege too quickly because unlike Taylor he has great stamina himself and would slap Pav around for the most part at this point ...

I will be very honest here...when Taylor pounded the sh-t out of Pav in round 2 I was screaming out loud, here's another Gerry Cooney ... the fact thaqt he survived and came back makes all the difference in the world because let's face it, most fighters would not have been able to come back .. Taylor was throwing bombs there ...

What impressed me the most last night was how Pav kept coming on when the fight looked like it was pulling away fom him in the middle rounds ... he kept at it and just like in HBO's promo's, he kept coming and had tremendous power to really flatten Taylor. I think it was one of the most crushing KO's I've seen under this sort of circumstances in a long while...not a Roy Jones or a Lennox Lewis out with a shot but a series of murderous shots ... I really do not think Taylor will ever be the same ... He really trained with it all for this fight and got flattened ...

kenmore
09-30-2007, 05:39 PM
After six rounds, I had Taylor ahead 57-56. All of the rounds except for the second were very closely contested. Going into the seventh it was anybody's fight.

In my book, Taylor won the fifth and six rounds because of his superior counterpunching. But Pavlik never, ever stopped storming forward in these rounds, and I thought I sensed that Taylor was getting confused and discouraged about how to handle Kelly's tank-like aggression.

The seventh round ending was incredibly dramatic...flashing, devastating, and sudden. For the entire round the two fought on nearly even terms, then suddenly Taylor crumpled to the deck after absorbing a brutal fight-ending combination from Pavlik.

Just like in the Miranda fight, it was Pavlik's intense, non-stop forward movement that made all the difference. Pavlik's strength and mental intensity are remarkable.

Lennox Lewis said that Taylor would have done better if he had reacted to Pavlik's monster-like aggression by side-stepping after taking two steps back. Lennox is probably correct. But given Pavlik's capacity to end the bout with a single punch at any juncture, there's no telling how the fight would have turned out no matter how intelligently Taylor had moved and countered.

Pavlik reminds me of Danny "Little Red" Lopez and Matthew Saad Muhammad in terms of style. In some ways, Pavlik also reminded me of Mike Spinks. Like Spinks, Pavlik is a tall guy with a lethal right hand who likes to mix it up on the inside and who could end the fight with a single right hand at any point. Remember the "Spinks Jinx"?

I scored the rounds as follows:

1. Pavlik
2. Taylor (extra point for the knockdown)
3 Pavlik
4. Pavlik
5. Taylor
6. Taylor

Southpaw1982
09-30-2007, 05:44 PM
I take my hat off to HBO, as they put on a very interesting and action packed card last night, and even the losers of last nights bouts walked away winners in my book as they showed heart and guts galore before getting taken out. Now to the fight itself, I was shocked to see Pavlik put his hands down and getting nailed the way he did after he got hurt by that punch behind the ear which let to the eventual knockdown a few moments later.

He did well to survive though as he held on and did what he had to do to buy some time to clear his head, and his conditioning was clearly excellent as a lesser conditioned fighter may well have been stopped in that round. What I cannot understand however for the life of me is why Taylor never got rough and tried to fight out of Kelly`s attempts at clinching in the second round after hurting his man. He should have pushed him off, hit him to the body and back of the head, do anything and everything to keep hitting your man while he is hurt... but Taylor seemed content to hold on to Kelly instead and let him off the hook.

This may well have cost him a golden opportunity to end matters early and in impressive fashion, but it is clear that Pavlik was by far and away the more intelligent fighter of the two as he did what he had to do when hurt to clear his head by holding on, whereas Taylor as usual backed himself into a corner when he got hurt and this time it cost him against a big puncher in Pavlik who finished him off. Pavlik was clealy the smarter fighter of the two, and he regrouped very well in the 3rd round which he won in my opinion, and he kept walking his man down landing shots that while they may not have looked hurtful, were taking a toll on Taylor.

When all is said and done when Pavlik had his man hurt he finished the job in impressive fashion while Taylor let his man off the hook by being content to hold instead of punching. I was very impressed with Kelly`s jab as well as he repeatadly kept backing Taylor up with it, and landed it consistantly while also going to the body whenever the opportunity presented itself. Mr.Baltazar mentioned that Pavlik reminds him of Danny Lopez which is a great comparison IMO.

Like Danny, Pavlik is vulnerable to knockdowns early on before he gets into his groove, and like Danny he throws a steady barrage of jabs/right crosses while going to the body as well to wear his man down. Both men have the utmost confidence in their ability to track down their foe and eventually stop them, and they have the stamina to keep up a high pace from the first bell to the last while carrying their power with them throughout a fight. If Pavlik turns out to be half as exciting as Little Red was, we can look forward to quite a few more memorable bouts from him.

Kelly does have some glaring flaws however and he really needs to tighten up his defence a bit, but with his intangibles and power he can end a fight at a moment`s notice and will make any fighter wary off walking in recklessly to try and finish him. It will take a fighter with lots of lateral movement, good handspeed and a excellent chin to beat Pavlik, much like Sanchez when he beat Lopez. But I don`t see anyone like that out there on the horizon for Pavlik to worry about, and I expect him to have a nice run as champ before eventually moving up in weight. Either way, lets all enjoy a new middleweight era with a fighter who comes to fight and comes to win and is prepared to do both each time out in Kelly Pavlik.

bomma
09-30-2007, 05:55 PM
HE Grant I think a lot of guys go into fights thinking Pavlik is just another Cooney. Which works to his advantage. The fact that the guy doesn't look that spectacular adds to this, but watch his hands when he fights he blocks a lot of shots with his gloves. He has good technique even thought it doesn't look real sooth, the more I think about it the more he reminds me of Foreman.

I almost feel like because he is white people think he is overrated but really there are a lot of white guys that can fight now a days. The days of the Chuck Wepner are over. The obviously biased thoery that white guys are some how only a product of hype should be long forgotten.

starlingstomp
09-30-2007, 06:34 PM
Let's be fair to Cooney here.

He had a vastly superior fighter to overcome in Larry Holmes and he did suck it up after getting hurt.I'd wager that Gerry might have found it a bit easier to get back into that fight had he a jermaine Taylor in front of him.

Does anyone really think that had Pavlik been in with a Holmes level middle he wouldn't have had been thoroughly outclassed and possibly brutally knocked out?.

Elwill7847
09-30-2007, 06:55 PM
I had Pavlik ahead 57-56 (4-2 in rounds).

Crold1
09-30-2007, 07:23 PM
Ron: Taylor was LIMP on the way down. Smoger was jumping in to stop it before he hit the deck. The kid was OUT...you could really see his legs go jelly from where I was sitting.

doomeddisciple
09-30-2007, 08:44 PM
I'd like to hear what john Duddy thinks about fighting Pavlik, if Camaps landed that often on Duddy - Pavlik should have it all over and done with in about 1.40 of the first...

great fight.

kenmore
09-30-2007, 09:01 PM
I'd like to hear what john Duddy thinks about fighting Pavlik, if Camaps landed that often on Duddy - Pavlik should have it all over and done with in about 1.40 of the first...

great fight.

I think this fight would be a very, very bad move for John Duddy. Duddy is easy to hit -- particularly by right hands -- and he would be an easy mark for the powerpunching, aggressive Pavlik.

Bob Arum is keen on making Pavlik-Duddy. If Duddy's managers are wise, they will reject "Honest Bob's" offer and select a lighter hitting champion for Duddy to challenge.

Pavlik is all wrong for Duddy...Duddy's people should be looking at anyone but Pavlik.

diggity
09-30-2007, 09:05 PM
Pavlik will be brought up on murder charges for Duddy, why not just throw him in there with Gatti for christ sakes.

Ron Lipton
09-30-2007, 10:53 PM
Thanks Cliff,

I go by what you say as you were right there. I know better than anyone that the ref sees things others don't more clearly.

I just did not like the way he seemed to stop it so damn fast and then stood over him in case he snapped out of it and tried to rise. No problem.

Steve is very very very very lucky to get these assignments in NY and NJ despite some behind the scenes stuff best left unsaid.

best always,
Ron

Thomas44
09-30-2007, 11:30 PM
Does anyone know what weight both guys entered the ring at ?

kenmore
09-30-2007, 11:45 PM
Does anyone know what weight both guys entered the ring at ?

I don't remember exactly, but I know it was between 167 lbs. and 169 lbs. for each fighter. HBO showed the weigh-in and "rehydration" (i.e., actual weight before entering the ring) weights on it's "Tale of the Tape".

diggity
10-01-2007, 01:43 AM
I agree with HEGrant, Calzaghe is all wrong for Pavlik. That is a prime example of a fighter who could completely undress him.

hagler04
10-01-2007, 09:26 AM
I think the only fight at middleweight worth making besides a rematch is Pavlik-Abraham. I actually think Arthur would have a solid chance at the upset there.

DscribeDC
10-01-2007, 09:54 AM
Better late than never...my observations on Sat. night:

I think what Pavlik exposed may have been weakness in Taylor's chin and heart. First major fight against a guy who could punch with him and he crumbled. All the Manny Stewards in the world can't fix those deficiencies.

Steve Smoger may have been a little premature. I don't think Taylor could have weathered the storm but, as champion, he deserved the same chance that Smoger gave the challenger.

Congrats to Kelly Pavlik!

walshb
10-01-2007, 10:00 AM
I just got to see the fight. Great fight. Two very good fighters.
Two things;
Taylor IMO was 4-2 rds ahead with a big 2nd round.
I had it 58-55 after 6 rds.

The ref had asbsolute no option but to intervene.
Taylor was not just hurt, but dangerously so..

Pavlik is a great talent, but I felt that he is a little easy hit
by big shots and if Taylor was a heavier banger and a little more precise
in his finishing, he would have taken Pavlik out. All credit to
Pavlik for getting up.

The judges had it as I saw it, 58-55 on two cards and a little closer on the third card

walshb
10-01-2007, 10:18 AM
The HBO scorer Harold Lederman is it?, gave the first rd to Pavlik. I thought that this was the most decisive rd in Taylor's favor, apart from his winning 2nd rd.....Not impressed

kikibalt
10-01-2007, 10:54 AM
I also thought that Taylor won the first rd.

walshb
10-01-2007, 10:58 AM
I also thought that Taylor won the first rd.
Then it's OK to assume that Taylor had a 3 point lead going into the third rd....
Bad judging IMO, despite Pavlik also having a good first rd, Taylor was sharper and landed more and controlled the rd. It was I believe, a 'decisive 10-9' rd for Taylor

wildhawke11
10-01-2007, 11:09 AM
In regard to the knock down in my opinion the fallen fighter should be given every chance to beat the count. Surly if the fighter beats the ten count an experienced ref should be able to tell very quickly if the guy is in a condition to continue. By the way i never saw the fight.

walshb
10-01-2007, 11:14 AM
You have to see the fight. It was NOT a simple punch-knockdown. He was beat down in a decisive manner. Taylor was slowly collapsing in the corner. He was losing consciousness. It was dangerous looking. The ref could have actually got in quicker I felt....

Cruiser86
10-01-2007, 11:28 AM
Normally, I would take issue with Smoger, but I think in this case he did the right thing, Pavlik is as good a finisher as there is today and he connected on two brutal uppercuts while Taylor was on his way down. It looked to me that Taylor was out before the uppercuts and Pavlik will not stop just because Taylor went down and I do believe Smoger put that into his equation.

As for the scoring, watching from afar you get a very different look then being there. I thought that Taylor was more active, but Pavlik controlled the pace and geography of the fight. I never really thought that the fight would go the judges descision. These two men had too much to prove and wouldn't hesisitate to stand in harms way to make their points

DscribeDC
10-01-2007, 11:32 AM
Decisive factor: nobody in Taylor's corner complained about the stoppage. That tells me he was beaten.

hawk5ins
10-01-2007, 11:36 AM
I think SMoger got caught in an unfortunate Split second timing issue here.

It seemed to me, that his intent when he stepped in was to call off Pavlik from delivering on Taylor who was taking a slew of shots.

JUST when he stepped in, Taylor hit the canvas. The thing is, Smoger already had waived it off. Hade Jermaine stayed on his feet a second longer, I doubt anyone would have said anything. It was becuase he fell as Smoger stepped in an waived it off, was there that 'back of the mind" thought of, should have Taylor been allowed a count.

As has been said by nearly everyone here, becuase Jermaine was so obviously hurt an out of it, when he hit the canvas, Smoger was saved of any real controversy.

It was just a weird unique timing scenario where becuase Jermaine hit the canvas when he stepped in, it did leave you with just a tinge of "what if" in the back of your mind.

Re the scoring: BDeskins earlier commented that he thought the judges scorecards of 58-55 were an indication that scoring needs to be revamped.

I'm not sure that THIS bout was an indication of this. It sounds like one rounds difference seems to be the issue here. I had it a one point fight going into the 7th. 3 rounds apiece, 2 point round to Taylor in the 2nd.

I also scored the 1st round to Pavlik, who I thouhgt landed the heavier shots. I didn't see that round as a CLEAR round for Pavlik, but it was one I had given him nontheless. ANd after a second viewing, I STILL beleive he deserved the round. Given that someone as respected as Frank Baltazar thought it was a TAYLOR round, gives me reason to beleive that the round's winner is an arguable point.

Given that point, I think 58-55 is conceivable by the judges and not out of Line. I had it a one point fight for Taylor, but all that is being debated is a single rounds score. Nothing that I would think is an example of the need for an over haul.

Excellent bout. IMO a clear definitive winner. My card didn't mirror 2 of the 3 judges' cards and like most everyone else, as the result of EXACTLY how the ending played out, I too had a 'back of the mind' uneasy feeling with the stoppage, even though I knew it was ultimately the correct call.

I'm not sure there is much need to quibbleTOO HARD about the conclusion or the scoring in this one. Excellent bout.

Hawk

walshb
10-01-2007, 11:49 AM
Just to clarify? Did Mr Baltazar NOT score rd 1 for Taylor?. This is what his POST seems to imply. I too scored it for Taylor even though Pavlik performed very well in rd 1, Taylor was extremely sharp in this rd. Hawk, in your POST, it seems you are implying that Frank scored rd 1 for Pavlik....I could be wrong

hawk5ins
10-01-2007, 11:52 AM
Hawk

walshb
10-01-2007, 11:53 AM
Good call!!!

hawk5ins
10-01-2007, 11:54 AM
you........approve?

Hawk

kikibalt
10-01-2007, 12:24 PM
Just to clarify? Did Mr Baltazar NOT score rd 1 for Taylor?. This is what his POST seems to imply. I too scored it for Taylor even though Pavlik performed very well in rd 1, Taylor was extremely sharp in this rd. Hawk, in your POST, it seems you are implying that Frank scored rd 1 for Pavlik....I could be wrong

Mr. Baltazar score the first rd. for Taylor, and had Taylor winning the fight after 6 rds. 58-55.

Lol!

Ron Lipton
10-01-2007, 01:10 PM
The issue has always been, the behind the scenes methods he used to get those vast amount of assignments, what his real background was in boxing when he got started which was nothing really, and the expose Pedro Fernandez did on him on Ring Talk when he was kicked off the bench in Margate NJ for what the Judicial Conduct Commission ruled, they are directly quoted in their opinon on preventing him from ever being a judge again by saying he "Lacked the integrity." See Fernandez article.

I worked with him many times and his behind the scenes conduct to get the assignments was nothing short of vicous machinations and a pomposity that was beyond belief for a non boxing guy. He is very smart, lawyer smart and he does let the fights go.

He is not in good shape however as films don't lie. It is all moot because he is politically in and that is all that is needed.

A title fight is an honor, it is constantly given to men who really had nothing to do with boxing themselves, and that will always be unjust.

diggity
10-01-2007, 01:42 PM
I can't help but be left with the thought that Taylor was completely let down by Steward in this. From the start they downplayed Pavlik way too much & Steward did later go on record admitting he underestimated his skills & speed. Steward sent Taylor in there with the same game plan he had when he sent Lewis in against Grant, go in there & rough up & blow the lesser experienced guy out. Big problem with that strategy chief...Taylor has never been in a gun fight with a big puncher unlike Lewis whos been in dog fights with Mercer & Bruno. Taylor was wobbled by Hopkins which would essentially be like Lewis getting wobbled by Chris Byrd. Taylor also has not demonstrated devastating KO power on the upper end as Lewis has. I'm no trainier but this don't all add up to a bonafide strategy to me.

Forgetting Taylor's opposition for a minute as an excuse, I have yet to see Taylor do a single thing better since being with Steward. In fact Taylor has looked stiffer & more mechanical under Steward IMO. For such a naturally gifted athlete (or so I thought), he still gets hit too much. Steward can't get Taylor to listen to him in the corners & the one time he gets Taylor to listen he sends him to cross a highway blindfolded into a lions den? Enough already. Steward & Taylor should part ways IMO & wouldn't be surprised if they did.

rocky111
10-01-2007, 02:00 PM
Any guy that gets into the wheel house of Pavlick is going to get very hurt. He has the leverage and he trains correctly to develop BOXING STRENGTH. Hes like a Bob Fitzsimmons. He is slim but powerful in boxing terms.
Steward had a ridiculous fight plan. Ridiculous. I have to laugh. He was going to take Pavlick to a pace in which hed burn out? Kelly can stand in front on his flats and punch hard for thirty rounds. Hes trained like that. You have to move and give him angles and then try to nail him. I cant understand the nonsense. I dont care that he did nail Pavlick and knock him down. Kelly was in his first big one and he got hit. Marciano got nailed that way and so did Joe Louis. He was very strong and he came back in the same round to box with effect. He was never close to a knockout and if Steward or Taylor thought that and adjusted to stand in front and punch they were wrong. This kid had his strength and showed the greatness of BOXING 101-You can shake off a big shot and come back and win. Great fighters can do that and that seperates them from great boxers and hitters who cant.
No disrespect to the others but I thought the scoring was ridiculous. Pavlick was moving forward with his shots and hurting Taylor, although Taylor was fighting with all his heart. Pavlick was busting the kid down little by little and it was there for eyes to see. It was no one punch blowout. He just wore this brave kid down. See it a draw or see it one round either was, but three rounds for Taylor ahead? Comon now. I even think Kelly was jabbing with Taylor with no problem.
I hardly ever disagree with Ronnie, but Smoger's call was correct, or maybe it just turned out lucky, or maybe he saw what many didnt since he was so close. But when Taylor hit the canvas on his knees it was obvious to even me on the telly that he wasnt going to move. Ordinarally I would say give the guy a chance to get up and that is always the right move. But this time it came out okay cause Taylor really was koed. I would have had no problem though saying Smoger should have given him a chance to rise-but this kid was knocked out and really might have gotton hurt.
Taylor fought like a champ and was a true sportsman and deserves a rematch and might win if he fights differently.
Why isnt anybody mentioning a match with Art Abraham who hits very hard, moves very well, keeps his hands up and is very strong?
Letterman Harord saw the fight like I did and he was on target IMO and Larry Merchant and Lennox did good jobs, but Lamply just dont get it. Why make the remark about Pavlicks "pale skin" being a smokescreen for talent? Is this guy for real?
I think Pavlicks for real and very very dangerous guy for anyone who stands in front of him. Hes also very strong and has that will to win at this point.

DscribeDC
10-01-2007, 02:02 PM
Taylor, 166; Pavlik, 168

Those are the fight-night weights...

bomma
10-01-2007, 02:28 PM
diggity - I agree totally with you about the Taylor Steward combo. I never thought that Steward matched Taylor's style very well. In my mind he should be with someone like McGirt. As soon as Taylor matched up with Steward he tried to turn him into a Kronk style banger. Coming up he used to have a sharp crisp jab that was his best weapon, and for some reason up until this recent fight he basically abandoned it. I also agree that his whole team took Pavlik very lightly. Steward is a great trainer but he and Taylor don't mix and it is disappointing to see a guy with the potential of Taylor not living up to it.

diggity
10-01-2007, 03:25 PM
Under different KD circumstances, I think everybody would have liked to see Taylor have the opportunity to get up but he wasn't getting up that night. If he knew how to fight hurt, maybe things would be a little different but there is no shame is going down to someone who is starting to look like one of the best finishers in the sport.

Enswell
10-01-2007, 03:26 PM
I can't help but be left with the thought that Taylor was completely let down by Steward in this. From the start they downplayed Pavlik way too much & Steward did later go on record admitting he underestimated his skills & speed. Steward sent Taylor in there with the same game plan he had when he sent Lewis in against Grant, go in there & rough up & blow the lesser experienced guy out. Big problem with that strategy chief...Taylor has never been in a gun fight with a big puncher unlike Lewis whos been in dog fights with Mercer & Bruno. Taylor was wobbled by Hopkins which would essentially be like Lewis getting wobbled by Chris Byrd. Taylor also has not demonstrated devastating KO power on the upper end as Lewis has. I'm no trainier but this don't all add up to a bonafide strategy to me.

Forgetting Taylor's opposition for a minute as an excuse, I have yet to see Taylor do a single thing better since being with Steward. In fact Taylor has looked stiffer & more mechanical under Steward IMO. For such a naturally gifted athlete (or so I thought), he still gets hit too much. Steward can't get Taylor to listen to him in the corners & the one time he gets Taylor to listen he sends him to cross a highway blindfolded into a lions den? Enough already. Steward & Taylor should part ways IMO & wouldn't be surprised if they did.


I have a feeling they will part ways. I think Manny telling him he was losing the fight will be an issue, though I don't think it ought to be, necesarily.

Who do you think would be a good fit for Taylor at this point? I was thinking Joe Goosen.

kikibalt
10-01-2007, 03:38 PM
I have a feeling they will part ways. I think Manny telling him he was losing the fight will be an issue, though I don't think it ought to be, necesarily.

Who do you think would be a good fit for Taylor at this point? I was thinking Joe Goosen.

Joe Goosen is the wrong guys for most fighters, I always thought that Manny S. was overrated, but so is Joe Goosen.

Enswell
10-01-2007, 03:58 PM
Joe Goosen is the wrong guys for most fighters, I always thought that Manny S. was overrated, but so is Joe Goosen.


Frank: Given the fact that you are a trainer, I will happily defer to you on this one. But if you could pick a trainer for Taylor who would it be?

kikibalt
10-01-2007, 04:04 PM
Frank: Given the fact that you are a trainer, I will happily defer to you on this one. But if you could pick a trainer for Taylor who would it be?

I don't know, I just know Goosen would not be the one.

bomma
10-01-2007, 04:11 PM
Buddy McGirt

kikibalt
10-01-2007, 04:47 PM
Buddy McGirt

Yes, Buddy McGirt, Freddie Roach and a very good trainer here in L.A. Dub Huntley.

Crold1
10-01-2007, 06:28 PM
There was a pretty good split on press row about the first round; I had it for Pavlik and had Taylor up a point after six. Didn't really matter though.

ricky
10-01-2007, 09:58 PM
It was a close fight coming down the stretch. The first and the third rounds could have gone either way. It makes no difference now though, the fight was stopped at the right moment, as Taylor was out after that last left hook landed on the chin. And we have a new, and quite marketable Middlewieght champion of the world.

If the rematch does not happen I would love to see Pavlik fight Arthur Abraham. A Pavlik-Duddy fight is ridiculous at this point.

diggity
10-01-2007, 10:26 PM
I think Birmingham would be good. Anybody would be an good change for him. It doesn't mean Steward is bad but they never clicked from what it seems.

BDeskins
10-01-2007, 10:52 PM
>>>Why isnt anybody mentioning a match with Art Abraham who hits very hard, moves very well, keeps his hands up and is very strong?<<<

I was thinking about this match-up also! Abraham showed some serious heart in his bout with Edison Miranda to last the fight with Miranda even with the serious injury that Abraham suffered, but Miranda is not Pavlik and though Miranda is certainly a hard puncher his punches are not nearly as accurate, nor are they as damaging as those of Pavlik. I think Pavlik would take out Abraham within 8, or 10 rounds!

I don't think that there are any middleweights who can handle Pavlik unless they can catch him cold and early and get him out of there quick, but if Pavlik can get two, or three rounds to get good and warmed up then he is a very strong force who seems to get stronger with every round. He reminds me a bit like Trinidad in that after he gets knocked down he just gets back up and then really punishes the opponent who knocks him down.

As I said, I don't think there is anyone at 160 who can handle him and even at 168, both Calzaghe and Kessler would have a hell of a tough time beating Pavlik at 168 as I think that he hits harder than both and unlike Lacy, Pavlik throws a lot of punches which would not allow Calzaghe to do what he did against Lacy!

If Pavlik can tighten up and be very consistent with his defense then there is nothing to suggest that Pavlik will not be able to move up past 160 and 168 to even 175 and be among the best and perhaps even the number one light heavyweight in a few years as he is only 25 and seems to be getting better with each fight! His next two or three bouts will be very, very important and if he continues to impress and continues to improve and win in those next two, or three fights then he will be the next big-time superstar who can bring a lot of new fans to the sport!

Regardless of what happens, Pavlik is going to be a pleasure to watch!!

Dan Gunter
10-02-2007, 01:03 AM
During this past year, Kelly Pavlik has fought two fights that emphasize why boxing is such a great sport. Against Miranda, Pavlik was masterful, showing real skill--and power--against raw power. Against Taylor, Pavlik showed great heart, rising after a serious knockdown that might have defeated a lesser fighter, then fighting on until he won.

I thank him for these fights.

And I thank Jermaine Taylor, too, for fighting hard against a fighter who he knew could knock him out.

I think that Taylor was amped up in the first rounds because he needed to be amped up to take on Pavlik. I say this: Taylor knew that Pavlik could knock him out. Taylor was afraid that Pavlik would knock him out. But despite his fear, Taylor did all that he could, summoned all that he could, to deal with Pavlik. And he almost succeeded.

I'm a great fan of "The Iliad": that tremendous, violent poem that is the wellspring of European poetry--in fact, of European culture.

In this world, where the media focus on Paris Hilton and Britney Spears, it seems impossible that anything could be left of a world and time that could imagine, much less create, much less house characters like Achilles--or even characters like Hector, who quailed when faced with great Achilles and raced three times around the walls of Troy.

In boxing we can still find the shadows of such heroes.

I think that Taylor was afraid of Pavlik. But Taylor faced his dread Achilles and almost mastered him.

All praise to Taylor for his courage: courage forged in fear.

All praise to Pavlik for his courage. All praise to Pavlik for his strength and skill.

Some of you may know the motto of the Order of the Garter: "Honi soit qui mal y pense." In English: "Shame to he who thinks ill of it."

I say: Shame to anyone who thinks ill of Pavlik. Shame to he who thinks ill of Taylor. They are both brave men, and we should honor both of them.

prototypeofamodernmadman
10-02-2007, 02:47 PM
What a great fight, I didn't bet any money, but I'm glad because I would've flipped out in the second when Pavlik ate all of those flush shots, it was one of those rare fights when the guy that was heavily hyped and who was the underdog that everyone wanted to win, actually won, it seems like every fighter I like and want to win loses, as for Pavliks future, I noticed immediately in the first round that Taylor looked a lot smaller than Pavlik, it was like a middle versus a light heavy in there, Pavlik could easily become a triple crown champion at this point, in fact I think he could beat the winner of Calzaghe-Kessler in his next fight with a follow up match against Bernard Hopkins in his very next fight, be a latter day Higher weight Henry Armstrong, don't get me wrong, I don't see him as the second coming, in fact he appears to be really slow and clumsy in there, too much strength youth and power, Calzaghe or Kessler would give him a tough time but he would definitely be too active for the aging grab, hold and rest, Hopkins, yea,

as far as middleweight threats, Abraham is probably the most serious because of his power, but from what I've seen of him he is VERY inactive, his strategy is to put his gloves up around his head and lay on the ropes, occasionally exploding with a punch or two, ok I'm at work and have to go, Bye everyone

apollack
10-02-2007, 06:57 PM
A true championship!! I thought Jermain fought the wrong fight (but a fan friendly one). He was way too amped, tried to hurt Pavlik way too much early, threw from too far away, threw too hard and fast, and the knockdown in the 2nd round actually HURT Taylor. I agree with Jermain's post fight comments that he gassed himself out trying to knock Kelly out. I think he went into oxygen debt and never really recovered. I also think he was not in the kind of fight shape he needed to be, which is strange given that he was in that camp. Usually a well trained fighter can get his second wind, which to me Jermain never really did. He fought very tight, especially early. His body looked great, but sometimes that is deceptive.

Jermain has never really been able to maintain a fast pace. The Hopkins bouts were very slow paced, and even then Jermain got very tired late the first time and the pace was still abysmal in the rematch. Jermain allowed smaller guys who were not punchers in Ouma and Wright to pressure and back him up and he only fought in bursts at best. Even the Spinks fight was very slow paced. So to go out there and fight that fast early, I'm not seeing it.

Of course, Pavlik had a LOT to do with Jermain's wearing out as well. You cannot take that many solid shots from a big puncher. Like Foreman-Moorer, if you keep letting a puncher hit your chin that often, something's going to give. All you have to do is watch some footage of Pavlik to realize the guy has freakish power and great condition for a puncher. All you had to do was watch his fight with Zuniga to realize the dude has heart. So to fight the style that Taylor fought, it was as if they were not going to show Kelly any respect and thought he was overrated and overhyped, which I cannot understand at all, if you had bothered to watch footage, which I'm sure they had.

Jermain's defense was awful. He couldn't block a jab to save his life. And it was like he hardly ever saw those rights coming. I think he was really thrown off by how far away Pavlik could hit him, not to mention that his D has never been his strong point. Winky Wright and Bernard Hopkins both found it fairly easy to back Jermain to corners and ropes, and hit him solidly when they were aggressive. Hopkins even stunned him with rights. Those guys are feather fisted compared to Pavlik. I think Jermain was mentally okay when he got hit, but underestimated the physical damage being done. And Pavlik came forward the whole fight and consistently pumped in clean hard shots, which can wear on a man.

My biggest criticism of Kelly is he should have gone to the body more, should have kept Jermain on the ropes a tad longer, and should have pumped that jab a bit quicker and higher in the 2nd round, not to mention not made a stupid face at Taylor every time he got nailed (instead of defending or punching back).

But ironically, Kelly's defense was the most underrated thing about him. Other than that bad sequence in the 2nd round, Taylor rarely hit him solidly. Most of those shots were grazing or hitting gloves as Kelly was ducking or turning away from them. He also got a bettter sense of how to do a little half step back and shoot a jab to maintain a safe range when he was taking a momentary break. His biggest problem was stepping into Jermain's range without that power jab, which is the best jab I've seen since Foreman.

Kelly Pavlik is a modern day Bob Fitzsimmons. He is going to continue to be underrated because he is a bit stiff and straight up, and not a speedster. But with that height, reach, two-fisted power, consistent offense, and toughness, he's going to surprise a lot of guys.

Off The River
10-03-2007, 07:20 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=ki-lostcheck100207&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

New middleweight boxing champion Kelly Pavlik did everything he expected to do last week in Atlantic City, N.J.

He knocked out Jermain Taylor to win the WBC and WBO titles. He charmed the national media with his easy-going nature. And he made himself must-see television by putting on one of the best fights of the year.

"Pretty much everything went the way we planned it," Pavlik said Tuesday after a golf outing in his hometown of Youngstown, Ohio, where he was mobbed as if he were a rock star.

All of it went the way he planned, except for one fairly significant detail: Pavlik and his father, Mike Pavlik Sr., left Atlantic City without their paychecks.

ADVERTISEMENT




Pavlik earned a gross purse of $1.05 million Saturday. After the fight, the New Jersey Athletic Board of Control presented Pavlik with a check for $666,750, which represented his share of the earnings after his managers, trainers and all fees were paid.

Pavlik's father, who along with Cameron Dunkin serves as his co-manager, received $105,000 for his services.

As the co-manager, the elder Pavlik took his check and his son's on Saturday night after the title-winning effort over Taylor.

The Pavliks had checked out of the Bally's Hotel in Atlantic City on Sunday morning and were halfway to Philadelphia for their flight to Pittsburgh when Mike Pavlik was suddenly stricken.

"It's about an hour from Atlantic City to Philadelphia and we were literally halfway there when out of nowhere, it just hit me," Mike Pavlik said. "My heart stopped and I just knew I had made a big mistake."

That mistake was leaving checks totally more than three-quarters of a million dollars on a countertop leaning against the coffee pot in their hotel room. In his excitement to get home, Mike Pavlik forgot to pick up the checks.

"I think I gave that maid probably the best tip she ever got," he said, forcing a laugh. The new champion took the news as he takes pretty much everything else: Calmly and without a lot of excitement.

He rarely gets nervous or upset, even with some of boxing's hardest punchers coming after him, and he didn't seem particularly bothered that the largest payday of his seven-year pro career had been misplaced.

"A check that big, it was going to be pretty difficult for someone to be able to cash it," he said. "I figured that somehow or other, we'd manage to either get it back or get a new one. My Dad might have been a little worried, but I wasn't too upset."

Dunkin reached Top Rank publicist Lee Samuels, who was on a private jet flying to Las Vegas along with Top Rank chairman Bob Arum and president Todd duBoef, via cellular telephone. When Samuels explained the problem, Arum agreed to stop payment on the check and issue another, though it wasn't entirely a new situation to the 75-year-old Hall of Fame promoter.

"I have never had a guy leave it in the room before, so Kelly wins a prize for that, but I've had guys lose them," Arum said. "Julio Cesar Chavez used to go out and party after fights and I can remember a lot of times he'd call me and tell me he couldn't find his check. But at least Kelly got the money he deserved."

The lost check was only part of Pavlik's adventure on his way home. Once the SUV Pavlik was riding in hit the Ohio border, he was met by a phalanx of police cars and fire trucks that gave him an official escort home to Youngstown.

Pavlik's SUV dropped into the middle of that sea of what he estimated were 30 police cars and fire trucks and made a triumphant return home.

"The support I get from the people here has always been great," Kelly Pavlik said. "But this was pretty incredible. It was nice to have those guys there for me and it made the win a little bit more special."

Mike Pavlik would like to tell people that the police were there to help protect him as he carried the large check home.

But he knows he's going to get a bad time from members of Team Pavlik for a long time to come.

"This isn't the last time this is going to come up, I'm pretty certain," Mike Pavlik said.

"We went there like it was just another fight. We did our thing the way we always do, but this one turned out to be a little more memorable in more ways than one."

DscribeDC
10-03-2007, 10:12 AM
Why was it necessary for Arum to talk trash about Chavez like that?

HE Grant
10-03-2007, 10:25 AM
Interesting analogy with Fitzsimmons ...

I've watched the fight a few times now and one thing Pav has to work on is clinching when he is hurt ... the funny thing about that second round was that it was Taylor who started most of the clinches even after he rocked Pav's world ...

Mexal
10-03-2007, 12:10 PM
Is Arum implying that Chavez was overpaid or that he didn't give fans their money's worth?

Sharkey
10-03-2007, 12:45 PM
I read it like this:

__________________________________________________ ___________
Chavez was another guy who used to have problems with checks. While he didn't leave them in hotels, he lost them sometimes.

While leaving a check behind is something I don't recall, in any event it was possible to make sure Kelly got paid though he left his check in the room.
__________________________________________________ ___________

I read (pronounced 'red') it like that, though admittedly have no idea what he really meant, nor does anyone when it comes to Bob.

hawk5ins
10-03-2007, 01:18 PM
Is that for me, I missed all of the interpretations on this on how it could have been construed and simply sat back and asked out loud how many times Chavez actually fought for Arum.

He was a King fighter for so long, that I have difficulty recalling when he fought under Arum's promotional banner. I will assume it was later in his career.

But Bob says this happened "A Lot" of times, that Chavez went out, partied and lost his check.

What constitutes "A Lot"? And that applies to how many times he fought for Arum AND how many times he lost his check!

Hawk

Dan Gunter
10-03-2007, 02:55 PM
I read Arum's comment much the way that Sharkey did. I don't sense any attempt by Arum to speak ill of JCC: it's simply an example.

In any event, the comment seems entirely trivial.

On the other hand, I do recall that the word "filioque" caused all sorts of problem through the ages . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque_clause

DscribeDC
10-03-2007, 02:56 PM
How smashed do you have to get to forget to take along a million-dollar check? I've had some doozy hangovers, but never one that bad.

Dan Gunter
10-03-2007, 04:48 PM
He didn't recognize it because it was a cheque, not a check.

Michael Frank
10-03-2007, 05:00 PM
I read Arum's remarks over twice and don't see that he talked one bit of trash about Chavez at all. He stated facts, and the facts weren't insulting facts.

Nothing was implied, either. If something was, no one reading it would recognize any implication, to my mind.

Mexal
10-03-2007, 05:14 PM
"But at least Kelly got the money he deserved", these were Arum's words right after stating that Chavez many times lost his checks.

I may be wrong, but to me (and I also read it over again) it is implying that Kelly got the money he deserved but JC didn't. Not that it matters, but that's what I can make out of Arum's words.

PeteLeo
10-03-2007, 05:16 PM
How smashed do you have to get to forget to take along a million-dollar check? I've had some doozy hangovers, but never one that bad.

I remember that Oliver McCall pulled a boner like that (I think it was after the Holmes match). Luckily, some honest soul found it and passed it on to the "Genius of Boxing." PeteLeo.

Todd
10-03-2007, 06:15 PM
Actually it was weirder than that:


Oliver McCall, who lost his World Boxing Council heavyweight championship to Frank Bruno earlier this month in Wembley Stadium, lost again in St Louis on Thursday.

Three men robbed McCall of his loser's purse - a cheque for $1.4m (pounds 927,500) which he had tried to hide in a sock - at about 3am police said.

Police arrested two suspects and recovered the cheque. However, McCall denied the incident had happened. "Man, I don't know what you're talking about," he told a local newspaper. "I love St Louis. What robbery? I wasn't robbed."

The suspects were both freed because McCall said he did not wish to press charges.

Austin
10-03-2007, 07:22 PM
Thank God Jay Nady was sorting his socks last Saturday night!! Otherwise Jermain Taylor would still be champ by a 2nd round TKO. Smoger knew that both boxers were warriors and let the fight continue.

Austin

Thomas44
10-03-2007, 10:37 PM
I like the Fitzsimmons comparison though Pavlik is taller by 2 1/2" . Interesting that it has been said that Bob's prime fighting weight was 167 which is about what Pavlik was at against Taylor. Given Pavlik's age and frame it would seem he could easily compete at 168.

I'd like to see how Pavlik would fare against Abraham.

Punchdrunk
10-04-2007, 03:35 PM
I'll bet the farm he didn't forget the belts...:)

Enswell
10-05-2007, 10:13 AM
I'm a bit surprised they even write out the checks anymore. I'm assuming Pavlik has a bank account. Why not just transfer the money?

DscribeDC
10-05-2007, 10:46 AM
I'm a bit surprised they even write out the checks anymore. I'm assuming Pavlik has a bank account. Why not just transfer the money?

The promoter collects interest on the money until the check is deposited and clears. If I'm the promoter, why am I in such a hurry to part with my dough?

Enswell
10-05-2007, 12:50 PM
The promoter collects interest on the money until the check is deposited and clears. If I'm the promoter, why am I in such a hurry to part with my dough?

Ah, hadn't thought of it like that. Makes sense then. Thanks for the info.

bomma
10-24-2007, 05:42 PM
If Jermain lost that fight because he didn't get the crowds backing what does that say about his mental toughness? I mean do they really want to spin this as Jermain heard too many boos so he got KOed? Plus he knocked Pavlik down in the fight.

Steward says "He needs to spend more time learning to do things where it will become instinctive naturally." I'm sorry but after how many fights he has had in his life if this is natural then it is probably too late.

I still don't here Pavlik getting the credit that he deserves. To me they still don't get how good a fighter he is. I suspect Taylor will get KOed again.

diggity
10-25-2007, 09:10 AM
The crowd huh? Cmon Steward. Maybe its me but I think it was the punches that Pavlik landed on his head that had the most do to with him losing but what the hell to do I know.

Nixon
10-25-2007, 11:05 AM
Steward is a funny guy. A lot of his marquee Kronk guys had plenty of major technical flaws. Hearns and Paul carried low left hands among others. Milton McCrory often dropped his right hand as he was jabbing, opening himself up to a counter left hook. Michael Moorer was addicted to going to the ropes as a heavyweight with Steward. A lot of Kronk fighters never held when they were in trouble and lost big fights because of that. Lots of examples. Taylor's camp have been pointing fingers at each other all along.