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View Full Version : Sugar Ray Robinson-vs-Sugar Ray Leonard-@ 147 lbs.



kikibalt
01-22-2006, 03:12 PM
Have this one been ask before ? if not who would win ?

Steve McV
01-22-2006, 04:12 PM
Who would win?

Robinson by TKO round 10.

Next question?

Man, Leonard was a great fighter, no question. He was willing to go up against the best of his time. I mean, good Lord, Duran, Hagler, Hearns... talk about Murderer's Row!

Leonard was fast. Robinson was no turtle.

Leonard had great skill, offensively and defensively. Anybody ever see Robinson? Same thing.

Leonard hit pretty good at welter. Not great, but he could sting. Robinson hit harder.

My feeling is that Leonard was great, a complete fighter... but Robinson just did the same things, and at least as well or better.

Leonard was a great fighter, no question. Sugar Ray, at welter, was the greatest. Ever.

Just my opinion.

wildhawke11
01-22-2006, 05:44 PM
Steve you got it right

As someone once said "Robinson wrote the book Leonard just read it" Plus of course as Leonard would not be the big money draw in this fight he would not be able to dictate the terms so easy and put things like ring size or weight conditions in his favour. At this weight the Sugar Man Robinson could do it all. Robinson by decision i think.

walsh b
01-23-2006, 03:11 AM
What a matchup...Leonard had it all, speed, movement, chin, stamina and a great punch in either hand. I disagree Steve that Ray was a good puncher, not great. Leonard had KO power whe he connected...maybe not as devestating as say the G man but he could take out any Welter when he got it right. Even with all Ray's talent and skill, I feel Robinson was simply that bit better in terms of roughness, tougness and busyness'.I see a late TKO win for Robinson due to Leonard's swollen eyes or a deserved UD....CLOSE BUT DESERVED

blv30
01-23-2006, 10:56 AM
Robinson by a close unanimous verdict.

dnahar
01-24-2006, 12:49 AM
I would take Ray Robinson KO 13, but I think Leonard would give him some problems. Tommy Bell managed to drop Robinson in a welterweight title fight, and an offensive fighter like Ray Robinson would take his share of punches. That chin was something else, though. Leonard would land some swift combinations, but Hearns also showed that Leonard could be outboxed at times as well. I just think Robinson is as fast or faster than Ray at welter, and he's probably the only fighter at welter that can hold his own speed-wise with Leonard. He lands harder and takes better punishment and I see him wearing down Leonard which Hearns might have done if not for his shaky legs.

Deepak

crold1
01-28-2006, 01:13 PM
Robinson by decision and perhaps they split a three fight series. I just can't see saying he would knock Leonard out. Who did Rob ever knock out at welter that would make me think he stops Leonard. Beat him...sure. But he got off the floor to decision Tommy Bell, went the route twice with Gavilan, went the route with Armstrong, Servo (twice), Angott (twice), Zivic (the first time), Lamotta (five out of six times), Fusari...Leonard gets knocked out though. LOL The track record says Leonard is almost cetrain to go the distance.

Steve McV
01-29-2006, 04:16 PM
Gents, I admit I might be wrong about Robinsonwinning by a KO, but on the other hand, I can't see Leonard beating him even once in three shots.

Here's an interesting thought, inspired by something mentioned. Robinson beat LaMotta five out of six.

Anybody think Leonard could be LaMotta five out of six?

Oh man, back to the computer fights...!

Juan C Ayllon
01-30-2006, 10:20 AM
Hey Cliff,

I hope all's well with you and yours.

You know, I have to take issue with what you said in regards to Robinson-Leonard. Whereas it's completely possible and even likely that Leonard goes the distance, it's not laughable to think that Robinson kayoes him flat out. Bruce Finch (sp?) really hurt Leonard, Roberto Duran stunned him and, that being said, I think it's fair to say that Robinson, landing properly, could finish him.

Robinson was a very hard hitting welterweight, period. Ditto at middleweight. And, he surely knew how to finish someone.

Looking at your list, several things come to mind:

One, Gavilan was one very, very durable fighter. I'd put his chin up there against just about anyone at welter.

Two, Jake LaMotta? He had the quintiscential iron jaw. Heck, he stood up to and knocked out Bob Saterfield, the dangerous bomber who regularly knocked out heavyweights, including one young Cleveland Williams! I'd like to see Ray Leonard TRY and mix it up with LaMotta! LaMotta would kill Ray to the body--something Leonard didn't like.

However, in all fairness, versus LaMotta, Leonard would run, and maybe pitty-pat him like he did Hagler...

Armstrong? I've heard it said that, out of respect, he carried his older friend, just like Armstrong carried Barney Ross.

And, as far as the other guys you've mentioned? I would like to see Leonard face them at their primes. I honestly don't know if he'd always come out on top. Bell might have kayoed Leonard with the shot he decked Robinson with. Zivic would have been a handful.

True, Leonard was good, but I think he'd have his hands very full in Robinson's era.

Just my two cents worth,


Juan C. Ayllon

Forum Flash
02-18-2006, 05:47 PM
I don't see Robinson stopping Leonard. Leonard had a hell
of a chin. But, I think the "original" Sugar Ray wins a 15
round decision. This would be one hell of a fight!!

crold1
02-19-2006, 09:49 PM
Yes, Juan, caught perfect it might happen. But it is a highlyu unlikely scenario. Do you think Robinson would not have had his hands full in the Leonard era? Duran would have been hell for Robinson just like he was for Leonard and Hearns is a tough draw for any welter. Robinson probably stops Benitez fast though.

Juan C Ayllon
02-20-2006, 12:01 AM
Hey Cliff,

It's always good to hear from you.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm thinking Robinson would have dispatched Duran almost as easily as Hearns did. At 5' 11 1/2 and with a 72" reach, he had a lot of leverage, reach and height to pull off the trick.

If he could knockout Graziano--who did alright against heavy hitting Zale--I think he could starch Roberto just fine.

I honestly don't think Ray Leonard was in the same class as Robinson. And saying that Robinson would have struggled with the same comp Leonard faced seems a bit of a stretch. Sure, Tommy Hearns would have been rough. But who else? I just don't see the similarity in terms of competition at all.

Taking it a step further, I think Carmen Basillio would have knocked out Ray Leonard, especially when he was older. Kid Gavilan would have been really rough on him, too, as would Gene Fulmer, especially if he elected to fight rather than run. Ditto for LaMotta. However, chances are, Ray would be on his bike a bippin' and a boppin.

I just don't think Leonard could take the punishment. He was pretty tough, but I just don't think he ever took a beating like Ray did, other than in his debacle versus Terry Norris.

Either way, have a terrific weekend,


Juan

JLP 6
02-27-2006, 11:12 AM
It could go either way. Robinson nor Leonard are going to be putting themselves at much risk. Leonard has the faster hands. Still he has to pick his spots ever closely. One false move.. and sweet nelie.

Robinson could actually take a beating if he's not one his game. Leonard is more the killer of the two and will bring much fire if forced. He is a better infighter than Robinson. If Robinson is slowed down, Leonard with his hands speed, things could interesting.

I say out of respect for Robinson that he takes the bout on points. Close split. Probably too tight to call.

Juan C Ayllon
02-28-2006, 07:52 PM
Wow. I've never, ever heard THAT before. No way, no how is Leonard in Robinson's league in terms of punching power. Not by a long shot.

Sorry, I won't buy that for a minute.

Respectfully,


Juan C. Ayllon

Juan C Ayllon
03-01-2006, 08:19 PM
I can't help resist this one last comment about Ray Leonard being the "more killer of the two."

I found that choice of words ironic, seeing that Ray Robinson killed Jimmy Doyle in a boxing ring. Morever, his one shot demolitions of Rocky Graziano--courtesy of a straight right--and very durable Gene Fulmer--courtesy of a screaming left hook--were true punching power exemplified.

Can you see Leonard pulling that off? For the life of me, I can't.

Even in his celebrated TKO win over Tommy Hearns, not exactly renowned for his chin, Ray didn't knock him out cleanly as, for example, Iran Barkley or Marvin Hagler, but wobbled him with a flurry of punches, prompting the referee to step in.

Neither Hagler nor Barkley would rate up there with Robinson in terms of punching power.

Moreover, even against a badly faded Hagler, Leonard never landed anything that remotely troubled him. Against Hagler, his power was very--how shall I say this nicely?--Virgil Hill like.

And that's your killer?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be patronizing, but honestly, as good as Leonard was, in my opinion, he was never in Robinson's league, especially when it came to power.

Respectfully,


Juan C. Ayllon

gregbeyer
03-01-2006, 09:47 PM
yeah, i have to go with juan on this one for sure.....leonard had 40 fights....robbie had 108 ko's......who's the killer?

greg

wildhawke11
03-01-2006, 11:03 PM
Greg
Trust you to kill this stone dead. Not a lot left to say now is there ;)

DaJonesMan
03-02-2006, 03:53 AM
Robinson is the best welter in the history of boxing he would get win

Roberto Aqui
03-02-2006, 04:28 AM
[[[[Moreover, even against a badly faded Hagler, Leonard never landed anything that remotely troubled him. Against Hagler, his power was very--how shall I say this nicely?--Virgil Hill like. ]]]]]]]
=============

Leonard was 3-2-1 in his last 6 bouts with one KO. I'd say his power is more "MachoCamacho" like!

starlingstomp
03-02-2006, 09:20 AM
While i certainly don't agree that Leonard is more of a killer than Robinson, or that he hit harder than him, i do think he was an excellent puncher in his prime at Welterweight.

His left hook was a devastating shot and he had fight turning power in the right as well.

Although he didn't really hurt Hagler(which makes Marvin's performance all the worse)in the grande scheme of things his power was in a different stratosphere to minimalist jabbing Hill.

walsh b
03-02-2006, 11:31 AM
At Welter Leonard could KO anytime, His speed and grace always took away from the fact he had KO power....great puncher and a killer finisher

kikibalt
03-02-2006, 12:26 PM
Leonard was a ok puncher, but not a one punch ko arttist.

Frank B.

Juan C Ayllon
03-02-2006, 07:17 PM
Hey StarlingStomp,

From what I read several years ago, Marvin Hagler was looking terrible sparring with the Weaver Triplets in preparation for Leonard, so bad was his timing. From what I saw, Leonard took advantage of an faded Hagler whose reflexes were shot and who was overconfident in giving away the early rounds.

However, that's another discussion.

Cheers,


Juan C. Ayllon

JLP 6
03-08-2006, 11:21 AM
I admit it does not make much sense. Still, I will try to expalin it.

My point is that I felt Robinson just naturally hit harder but Leonard had more killer instinct in him when he needed it.

The way he relentlessly stalked Hearns untill he KO'ed him. The way he stood toe-to-toe with Hagler in the 9th round and fired at will, the way he traded punches with Duran for 15 straight rounds.

If Robinson had more, I feel it was easier to see in Leonard.

Sharkey
03-08-2006, 11:37 AM
I dunno.

Maybe because it was told to us every second by the media. SRL wasn't a pampered middle class kid who couldn't fight. We all knew that. But hearing it every second and reading about the killer instinct in every article...that thing that legitmized him as a real fighter...

As for Robinson: I can't imagine showing more killer instinct than crushing LaMotta..standing with Basilio for 30 rounds while past it..rendering Turpin a puddle..or even fighting as often as SRR did against top-shelf men with often at a strength disadvantage.

When Robby KO'd all those guys...it wasn't on TV for someone to choreograph a line detailing how he finished them off.

Juan C Ayllon
03-08-2006, 10:41 PM
Hey JLP6,

I hear what you're saying, and I respect your opinion.

Ray Leonard was an outstanding fighter, no doubt. I just don't think he quite stacks up to the hype.

He definitely fought with a fighter's heart, but I think he also was very shrewd in his matchmaking.

For one thing, he picked Hagler when he was looking to go.

As with most greats as they approach the end of their reign, you could see the writing on the wall with Hagler. In his bout versus Mugabi, he was getting hit with lots of shots he shouldn't have. Needless to say, he was ripe for the picking, as with Louis, Ali, and Holmes, for example, towards the ends of their respective reigns.

I remember thinking around that time in Hagler's career that Michael Nunn would be the one to take his title. Of course, that was before his bout versus Toney!

You'll duely note that Leonard didn't defend the middleweight title against the young lions coming up, either.

Then, there was the fact that when he won the light heavyweight and super middleweight "titles," he did so at a contract weight of around 168, I believe, against the limited, but hard hitting Donny LaLonde.

Again, you did not see him attempt to defend either "title."

Also, let's look at the percentage wins by KO's.

Sugar Ray Robinson's record reads 117-19-6, with 108 KO's. Ray Leonards reads 36-3, with 25 KO's. Doing the math, Sugar Ray Robinson's KO's as a percentage of his wins is 92.3 percent. Ray Leonard's is 69.4 percent.

Rounding it out, Robinson's KO perentage in terms of wins is a little over 90 percent, or nine out of every 10 wins, whereas Leonard's KO percentage is almost 70 percent, or he stopped seven out of every 10 guys he beat.

Add that to the fact that Robinson fought 25 years, stretching from October 4, 1940 until November 1965, when he was 44 years old, versus Leonard--if you remove the disastrous Camacho fight in 1997 when he was 40--fighting as a pro for 14 years, ending when he took a thumping by Norris in 1991 at age 34.

25 years is an awful long time to maintain over a 90% knockout ratio.

Of course, one might argue that Leonard fought way too sporadically to maintain peak momentum and performance, with the gaps inbetween major bouts. The fact of this inactivity no doubt caught up with him when he fought the inferior, but much more active Camacho in 1997.

Anyways, my point in all this is that what appears to be more of a "Killer instinct" manifested in Leonard is very consistent with his career; it was shrewdly engineered to maximize perceived effect, whereas Robinson kept fighting, and fighting, and fighting, all the while maintaining a 20 percent superior knockout rate over Leonard.

Long term, it didn't do his health good, but he surely is the King of Sugars, in my book.

Respectfully yours,



Juan C. Ayllon

walsh b
03-09-2006, 03:24 AM
Robinson I think shades Leonard in most areas, and that includes one punch power. Both had very good punches, but Robinson's a little harder. Boh I would say were equal as regards finishing an opponent, bes in the business. Robinson's real advantage was his roughness and higher workrate. I can't see Leonard really pushing Robinson around.

JLP 6
03-09-2006, 05:32 PM
I stand corrected. Very nice response Juan. Robinson was more of a killer when you put in those term.

Thanks for teaching a fool.

Juan C Ayllon
03-09-2006, 07:19 PM
Hey JLP 6,

Thanks for the complement! We're all learning here. I wouldn't call anyone a fool in here. The fact that you're open speaks volumes about you.

Have a great day,


Juan

Sharkey
03-13-2006, 12:47 PM
with Juan in spirit..however the evidence pointing to KO percentage should reflect Robinson had over 170 wins, not 117..at least by my calculations.

wpink
04-17-2006, 12:13 AM
Juan...I am new to this site..I am always on eastside boxing.com however your post is bogus...Bruce Finch never hurt Sugar Ray leonard. The fight was ended in 3 or 4 rounds by ko..and ray simply played with Finch. Leonard had on of the best jaws in welterweight history, he never went down until he came back from retirement, and he took a lot of right hands from duran hearns...Leonard through faster combinations, but robinison did punch harder and from what I have seen I would have to go with Robinson. Leonard utilized different styles to beat different fighters, juan. He showed he could go toe to toe with great fighters as he did with duran, hearns and benetiz...he even moved up and beat hagler after 5 years off with only one fight. Please give the man the proper respect.

wpink
04-17-2006, 12:22 AM
Juan,

Also, leonard had ko or tko over heanrs, benetiz, kalule, lalond, and duran quit...kalule and lalond were heavier fighters,,,benetiz was a defensive great who went the distance with hagler, heanrs and duran, kalule never touched the canvas b4 ray,,,so really you need to back off Ray's punching power...did you see davey boy green ko, or andy price ko...Ray leonard had great great ko power at welter weight..now as far as th statement that he was 3-2-1 in his last 6 bouts..I say those fights are irrelevant as we all know that ray was retired for 5 years between 82-87, then he retired again after he beat hagler.....retired before norris for 1 year and a half,,then was out for 6 yrs before camacho....So while this does lead me to agree that Robinson was the better fighter strictly because of power..if anybody at welter wz going to beat robinson at welter it would be leonard....he is the 2nd best welter weight of all time.

Juan C Ayllon
04-18-2006, 12:02 AM
Hey Pink,

Welcome to the board. And thanks for the input. I appreciate your enthusiasm.

However, I've been following boxing on and off for years. Your info on whom Leonard beat was old news.

Without rehashing my prior points, beating LaLonde at "light heavyweight" and "super middleweight" at 168 for both titles was an inspiring performance, but rather watered down--certainly not the best representative available from either weight class--and the fact that he didn't defend his either of those titles or the middleweight title after he beat a primed for the picking Hagler spoke volumes, in my book.

And, yes, I saw the Bruce Finch fight when it happened. It appeared like you called it, yet Finch stunned Leonard briefly, which led to his quick demise as Leonard turned tiger and took him apart. Moreover, in a subsequent interview, Leonard said that Finch hurt him the most any fighter ever had up to that point. Surprising, yes! But, bogus, no. I was surprised to read that as anyone at the time.

As for Leonard's later fights, sure, they are relatively insignificant. However, my point stood that Ray Robinson went way above and beyond his peak and still remained amazingly competitive, whereas Leonard went downhill precipitously quick.

Regarding the 170 wins, Sharkey's right. When I punched up the numbers quickly on an Excel spreadsheet, I either must have mistyped the number or misread it. How embarassing!

Anyways, gentlemen, it's bedtime.

Cheers,


Juan C. Ayllon

hawk5ins
08-30-2007, 02:06 PM
Bump

Hawk