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Randy Gordon
05-07-2008, 03:19 AM
Mike: If the set of Ring Mags you listed above don't get gobbled up, I'll take them off your hands for the $35 asking price (I already have a few sets, but with my grandkids arriving like rabbits...)

I'm glad you'll be going up to the IBHOF. I look forward to seeing you there.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
05-07-2008, 12:14 PM
I imagine you are correct re Tzsyu. I'd be very surprised if he is not in on the first ballot.

And hey Psst. Can you swipe me a program from this years hall?

I'll pm you my addy.

Thanks.

Oh and BTW, did you ever run in to Howard Davis when you were down in FL?

He still owes me a Sharpie!

Hawk

doomeddisciple
05-07-2008, 02:51 PM
But waht about Benn, Eubank, Collins, Little Red, and all the Asian guys (JaPan, Korea and Thailand) who have not gotten in. I would hope they put Myung-Woo Yuh in first. But this could be a great thread topic if titled correctly. Food for thought anyway. I am a great Tszyu fan as well.

I realise that Canastota is a professional boxing hall of fame, but I would also consider Tszyu's stellar amatuer achievements add weight to his pro-career credentials.

I have no idea if when members get their ballot if they vote by a criteria other than personal choice, but I would put Tszyu in there before either Eubank or Benn for a start.

Randy - I have a lot of "Mecca's" to visit when I come out to the States, a lot of them are music related - But Canastota is totally on my list of must visit places.

Hope to have a beer with you all at the hall in 07 :o)

bodyblow
05-07-2008, 03:40 PM
Hi Randy,

I have a friend who would like to talk with you via email about a project he is working on. Would you be willing to talk with him? He is writing a boxing book.

Bodyblow

Randy Gordon
05-07-2008, 04:51 PM
Doomed: I would definitely consider the incredible Kosta Tszyu's amateur record in voting for him. He only lost around 10 bouts out of something like 250 in the amateurs (I remember this from having been the color commentator at the 1990 Goodwill Games in Seattle, WA). He won a gold medal for the Soviet Union in those games, beating the USA's Terron Millett along the way.

And I WILL have a drink with you at the IBHOF when I see you there (the drink is either on me or I'll expense GorDoom for it!).

Bodyblow: Tell your friend I'd love to speak with him. If you send me a PM, I'll pass along my cell # to you so you can give it to him. Either that, or he can reach me here in the CBZ.

TedSares: I think an ongoing thread pondering if this fighter or that fighter is HOF material is a great idea. Here's one for ya': Does Mike Tyson ever get voted into the IBHOF?

-Randy G.

bodyblow
05-07-2008, 08:01 PM
Tried to send you a PM but it says your box is full and you cant recieve any more.

doomeddisciple
05-07-2008, 08:10 PM
Kostya's amatuer record was 259-11 according to Wiki, but I've seen up to 271-11.

His Vernon Forrest performance here in Aus in Sydney was just amazing.

I often wonder if Tszyu had have stayed on in Russia to fight in Barcelona if Oscar would be now heading up Silver Boy Productions instead.

Mate, getting thirsty right now! As a good Australian, I'll only take your drink if I can buy you and the rest of the board a "shout" (a round of drinks) back.

Randy Gordon
05-07-2008, 11:36 PM
Bodyblow: Try my PM now in regard to your friend. I zapped my old messages. I'll speak with ya' later.

Doomed: Doesn't matter who is "Shouting," as long as you get to Canastota one day.

-Randy G.

walshb
05-08-2008, 12:25 AM
Kostya's amatuer record was 259-11 according to Wiki, but I've seen up to 271-11.

His Vernon Forrest performance here in Aus in Sydney was just amazing.

I often wonder if Tszyu had have stayed on in Russia to fight in Barcelona if Oscar would be now heading up Silver Boy Productions instead.

Mate, getting thirsty right now! As a good Australian, I'll only take your drink if I can buy you and the rest of the board a "shout" (a round of drinks) back.
No, Oscar in 92 was superb and would have found a way to beat Tsyzu....

doomeddisciple
05-08-2008, 02:56 AM
I agree walsh, but Tszyu in 91 form was something to behold too. His finely honed defensive finese against Forest was amazing. Would love to have seen that fight.

hhascup
05-08-2008, 04:41 AM
Hawk: $85 for a DVD of your kid's recital? I used to pay $20. I think my kids are now paying $25. Who's the promoter in Vermont? Don King? Bob Arum? P.T. Barnum?

By the way, I believe the ticket for the IBHOF dinner on Saturday night is a hefty $135.

Hey, it's only money!

-Randy G.


I just have to add my opinion on this one.

Back in 1981 I became a single parent of 4 small children, ages 10, 8, 5 & 3, as their mother decided that she didn't want to be a mother anymore.

My whole life was those 4 kids. I did everything with them I was a baseball, softball, football coach, leader of the Cub Scouts and Boys Scouts, helped out with the Girl Scouts and even 1 year I was a Brownie Leader for a dozen 6 year olds. I also helped out with a Track team, Wrestling team, etc. What ever any of my kids got involved I did as well and we all went together to support one another.

They also went to dancing school and at the end of the year they had 1 recital on Friday night, 2 on both Saturday and Sunday, that's 5 recital's in all. AND that wasn't counting the rehearsals all that week.

I use to sit in the 3rd row for every show with my movie camera on my shoulder and back in the 1980's the camera's were a lot heavier then they are today. These shows use to last 3 to 4 hours, BUT it was all worth it when my daughter or sometimes by son came out. They would all look into the 3rd row and they would have the biggest smile on their faces just because I was their.

I wouldn't change those days for anything in the World.

It didn't stop me from being involved with boxing, as I am into my 23rd year as the President of the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame.

By the way, 8 years after I became a single parent, I married a beautiful lady who also had 4 kids (we also each had a large dog). A year later we took in 2 more kids. Some people called us the Brady Bunch BUT we say 8 is enough, or should I say 10.

Thanks, Henry Hascup

hawk5ins
05-08-2008, 08:20 AM
I'm with you on every word here.

Sure I'll miss not being able to attend the festivities at Canstota and it would be awesome to tip a few back with some great guys I've met on this site.

But my three girls are my world. Four girls if you include their mother. Not Only would I want to miss out on these experiences, I could never stomach the thought of breaking their hearts or dissappointing them.

Hawk

10-8
05-08-2008, 06:51 PM
Henry, my hat off to you for going it solo and raising your kids. Men get the bad rap by society in marital break-ups, but in truth there are many women that walk out on their families and many unsung dads that raise their kids alone. I can't imagine doing it without my wife.

As Dads we know you can't get those years back, and they fly by. I've been hands on and coached my 3 kids in sports non-stop for the last 9 years and figured I had coached my last game when my 15 year old son's rep hockey season ended last month. I was plain burned out.

Then along comes my 11 year old daughter who wants me to coach her in soccer this summer, so there I was again last night at the local soccer club, attending yet another coaching seminar, picking up my "coach package" phoning parents, scheduling practices etc.....

Randy Gordon
05-09-2008, 06:46 AM
Guys, you have no idea how I admire Henry Hascup. Some single parents make a shambles out of their lives and out of their kid's lives, but not Henry. He took the proverbial bunch of lemons life handed him and made lemonade out of it. On top of being a dad to 10 kids (even though they are grown he still plays dad), he does a fantastic job as head of the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame. Their yearly banquets and inductions are well-run, mainly because of the vast amount of work "Double-H" put into the ceremony the previous 364 days.

Yeh, most of us know what it is to be a responsible parent. But we all could learn even more by getting to know an amazing man who, I'm proud to say, is also a boxing junkie just like us--Mr. Henry Hascup.

A huge Henry Hascup fan,

Randy G.

hhascup
05-09-2008, 08:02 AM
Guys, you have no idea how I admire Henry Hascup. Some single parents make a shambles out of their lives and out of their kid's lives, but not Henry. He took the proverbial bunch of lemons life handed him and made lemonade out of it. On top of being a dad to 10 kids (even though they are grown he still plays dad), he does a fantastic job as head of the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame. Their yearly banquets and inductions are well-run, mainly because of the vast amount of work "Double-H" put into the ceremony the previous 364 days.

Yeh, most of us know what it is to be a responsible parent. But we all could learn even more by getting to know an amazing man who, I'm proud to say, is also a boxing junkie just like us--Mr. Henry Hascup.

A huge Henry Hascup fan,

Randy G.


Randy, thank you so much. Coming from you it means a lot.

HE Grant
05-24-2008, 02:19 AM
Hey Randy, I have been skimming through some of the pages in this very interesting thread and have to say find it very enjoyable ... I specifically remember the era of Ring Magazine covers you refer to as if they were yesterday as I had all of them ... I loved the Hitman Hearns cover and remember at the time some writers wrote that it was in poor taste ... screw them ...

I also wonder about some of the fighters you had the opportunity to see first hand and meet ... what comes to mind that you can share with us about Carlos Monzon and Victor Galendez? Everything I have read about Carlos says that the guy was distant and almost nasty to outsiders, unfriendly, ect , like Duran at the time he seemed only comfortable among his own and not very open or friendly to Americans ... There is so little about him to read these days, at least in English, it is frustrating ... I'd really like to know more about the guy and anything first hand is greatly appreciated ...

Randy Gordon
05-24-2008, 02:35 PM
HE: Thanks for the kind words. When the idea of this thread was put to me earlier in the year, part of me really wanted to do it, but another part was a bit hesitant. So, my parts debated about it, and the part that wanted to do it won. I'm glad it did.

Yeh, the "Hitman" cover created a lot of waves (which Bert and I loved). If I'm correct, that issue became the biggest-selling Ring Magazine ever.

As far as Carlos Monzon is concerned, I became friends with him when he came to New York for his fight in 1975 against slick, light-hitting Tony Licata. In the 10 days or so he was in NYC, I was in the gym with him almost every day. At the time, I was the Assistant Editor of World & International Boxing Magazine. My boss was Stanley Weston, who was inducted into the IBHOF a few years ago. I was crazy about "Mr. Weston," as the staff called him, but, geez, was he a cheapskate and a control freak. He allowed me to go into NYC one day to meet with Monzon, and even paid the $4 or so that it cost for a roundtrip ride on the Long Island Railroad from Long Island into NYC (that same ride is $20 today!!!). But one day is all he gave me for meeting with Monzon. I tried to convince him that Monzon was a great...a legend. But all I got from Weston...Mr Weston...was "Carlos Monzon couldn't have lasted a day with Ray Robinson as a sparring partner. You're not going to take any more than one day away from the office to meet with a sparring partner."

I got my way by telling him I was going in the city to meet with, not just Monzon, but Victor Galindez (whom I knew Mr. Weston thought highly of), then called in sick a few other days.

On one of the days in Gleason's Gym, which was then on 30th Street in NYC, Monzon was preparing to spar. As he warmed up, he said to me, through an interpreter, "You Americans spar too hard." He said that as he watched two New Yorkers--weighing somewhere between 145-155--smacking the beejeezuz out of each other.

"Watch me," he said.

A few minutes later, he sparred the first of eight rounds against one of four different sparring partners. In one round, he had a sparring partner throw nothing but jabs at him. In another round, all Monzon did was lay on the ropes and practice blocking shot after shot. Every round was different. I watched. I learned.

I told Monzon that my boss was a difficult man and didn't want me taking time off from work more than one day. I told Monzon that I simply had to come back with an interview with Victor Galindez. Monzon smiled and said, "I'll take care of that." That evening, I went to the hotel Monzon was staying in and I had dinner with him and Galindez.

Mr. Weston was thrilled I had gotten the interview.

In his title defense against Licata, Monzon toyed with his foe from New Orleans. He hit him as he pleased with whatever he chose to hit him with, stopping him late, I believe in the 10th round.

After the fight, in his dressing room, Monzon hugged me and said, "I'll see you again, my friend."

We never did. He never returned to the states. He retired a few fights and about two years later after thoroughly beating Rodrigo Valdez in Europe.

But that one week in 1975 was a special one for a 26-year-old boxing writer from New York.

-Randy G.

HE Grant
05-24-2008, 02:39 PM
Priceless ... truly amazing ... anything about Galendez?

Randy Gordon
05-24-2008, 07:39 PM
HE: What I gave you on Carlos Monzon was an abbreviated version of a chapter from my book, which I am about 90% done with. Had my book come out when my old boss, Stanley Weston, was alive, it would have killed him right then and there!

As I mentioned in my last post, I told Mr. Weston (remember, the staff called him that--I called him "Coach") that I had arranged to interview Victor Galindez and needed to take a trip into NYC. I really didn't, but knew Weston would give in to making me stay in the office, as Galindez was one of his favorite fighters. So, I called the man who served as translator for Monzon, and asked him to speak with Monzon for me to see if he could arrange an interview for me with light heavyweight king Victor Galindez.

Done. The translator said Monzon would be happy to take care of my interview needs with Victor Galindez.

The next evening, at the Pennsylvania Hotel, directly across the street from Madison Square Garden, I had dinner with Carlos Monzon, Victor Galindez and the interpreter. Monzon and Galindez were best friends, and they constantly joked and laughed throughout the dinner. But whenever they'd laugh, Monzon would say something--in Spanish--to the interpreter, who would then turn to me and say, "Carlos said..." and explain what it was he and Galindez were laughing about. Neither champion spoke any English, and my Spanish was as poor as their English, so we required the help of the translator. But with that interpreter/translator, we spoke about everything from John Conteh (who held the other half of the light heavyweight belt) to contender Eddie Gregory to Muhammad Ali. I told Galindez I hoped he'd be able to unify the title with a fight against John Conteh, but he said the fight would never happen.

"Conteh's people don't want me near their guy," said Galindez. "They know I am far too physical for him." He was right.

It was hard for me to believe that this rugged 26-year-old light heavyweight champion was three months older than me. He had a penchant for fast cars and auto racing. He said he wanted to be a race car driver when his boxing career was finished. Five years later, after losing a decision to contender Jesse Burnett, Galindez was killed during a race. I believe his car had broken down, and Galindez was killed while emerging from his vehicle into the path of an oncoming car.

So much more of the interview will be in the pages of my book. The chapter is called "Don't Cry For Them, Argentina."

I must tell you--I really enjoyed reading that chapter again. It brought back a rush of incredible memories.

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
05-25-2008, 01:08 AM
Have you ever looked at Carlos Monzon's record? It's something you just won't see any more. Ninety fights...unbeaten in his final 13 years as a pro... unbeaten in his FINAL 80 bouts (most champion's records have several blemishes at the end of their career--not Monzon's!)...The three men who defeated him early on were all soundly beaten by Monzon in rematches (he told me stories about each one of those losses--WOW!).

Mr. Weston--Stanley--was wrong--so wrong about Monzon.

He would have given ANY middleweight in history a tough night.

He may have been a "pretty boy," but inside of him was one of the greatest fighters of all time!

-Randy G.

HE Grant
05-25-2008, 02:02 AM
Randy your first hand accounts are amazing. To me there is no compensation for them .. in addition, the era you refer to is one that is extremely dear to me ... I fell in love with the sport in the mid-1970's and watched every fight possible and read everything imaginable till well into the 1990's ... as I wrote earlier the champions from those days....Monzon, Conteh/Galendez, the class of 76 and so on made major impressions on me ...

Monzon was always an enigma as we really saw so little of him ... even today you only see poor quality versions of a handful of bouts ... in addition, he was the ultimate pretty boy/bad ass ...he's just one guy I wish there was more available about ... even scouring the web there is very little ... just a fascinating character .... plagued by demons ....somewhat like Duran in the way he never conformed to playing to an American audience ....

Has anyone seen his fight against Briscoe ? I'd be curious about it ....

Another guy from that era I find interest is Conteh ... I think he was a hell of a fighter although I do not know ultimately how good as injury and partying plagued his career ... any thoughts on him Randy ?

iskigoe
05-25-2008, 02:47 AM
Hey Randy,

Don't want you to think He Grant is the only one enjoying all this.
Great stuff. Sounds like your "living the dream"

KI

Randy Gordon
05-25-2008, 08:15 AM
KI: I know I am "living the dream." I absolutely KNOW it. And it seems that every passing day brings yet something else I can smile about and tell myself, "Randy, you are truly the luckiest fight fan who ever lived."

Of all the champions and big names of the 1970's and into the '80's, John Conteh was one I really wish I had a chance to know better. We met for the first time in August 1975, when he was the defending WBC light heavyweight champ, making his inaugural appearance in the U.S., in, of all places, the Catholic Youth Center (CYC) in Scranton, Pennsylvania. He was in a non-title fight against journeyman Willie "The Bull" Taylor.

Although the fight was the main event, Conteh was not the main attraction. A twenty-six-year-old heavyweight from a few miles up the road in Easton, was the man fans had come to see: Larry Holmes.

I had been to Holmes' pro debut a few years earlier and was convinced the first time I saw him that his future would be as ruler of the heavyweights, so I continued to take the three-hour ride to Scranton whenever I heard he was fighting again. Only this time, I also got to see--and meet--the gentleman that was--IS--John Conteh.

I sat in his dressing room with my large tape recorder and spoke with him while trainer George Francis taped his hands. He told me of his desire to unify the light heavyweight title, but thought the politics and friction between the WBC and WBA would make it next to impossible to do so. He was everything you can imagine about him, if everything you imagine is good. He was nothing short of a gentleman, especially when you consider that he was allowing me into his dressing room only minutes before a match against a tough, durable opponent. A short while later, Conteh went out and put on a boxing clinic against the rugged but slow Willie Taylor. I watched the fight with Larry Holmes, who bombed out Obie English in round seven a short while earlier, his 15th victory in as many fights.

Conteh didn't fight in the States again for four more years, and when he did, it was as an ex-champion against the current titleholder, Matthew Saad Muhammad, who won a 15-round decision. They went at it again seven months later, but this time Saad Muhammad mauled Conteh, taking him out in four rounds. Had he won, Bert Sugar and I had planned to put him on the cover of The Ring. Oh well. Soon after, it was Saad who graced our cover in one of The Ring's best-ever cover shots.

Yeh, those days were the days, weren't they?

But now, as I continue to live the dream, I am working with a Panamanian amateur heavyweight, who hopes to turn pro in a few months. I will manage him and train him. We'll train throughout the summer, then look to debut on a Long Island card in late September. In addition, I am working with NY Jets star safety Kerry Rhodes in his off-season conditioning program. He is without question the best athlete I have ever had the pleasure of working with. He'll be heading into Jets camp in July in the best shape I have ever seen him in--and this is the third year we are working together.

As you said, KI, I am indeed living the dream.

-Randy G.

Obama fan
05-25-2008, 08:39 AM
KI: I know I am "living the dream." I absolutely KNOW it. And it seems that every passing day brings yet something else I can smile about and tell myself, "Randy, you are truly the luckiest fight fan who ever lived."

. . .

I also got to see--and meet--the gentleman that was--IS--John Conteh.

I sat in his dressing room with my large tape recorder and spoke with him while trainer George Francis taped his hands. He told me of his desire to unify the light heavyweight title, but thought the politics and friction between the WBC and WBA would make it next to impossible to do so. He was everything you can imagine about him, if everything you imagine is good. He was nothing short of a gentleman, especially when you consider that he was allowing me into his dressing room only minutes before a match against a tough, durable opponent. A short while later, Conteh went out and put on a boxing clinic against the rugged but slow Willie Taylor.

. . .

-Randy G.

Randy, you are too modest.

With your sterling 37-2 amateur record you are far more than a fight fan.

Jerry the Bull Martin stopped Willie Taylor in 8 rounds, knocking him down in the process.

Randy Gordon
05-25-2008, 03:42 PM
Thanks, Obama, you always make me smile.

Any reason you stuck that tidbit about Jerry Martin stopping Willie Taylor, in there? Was it because I called Taylor "a rough, durable opponent?" I was ringside for a lot of Taylor's fights. He lost a few more than he won, and was stopped several times, but I maintain that he was exactly what I called him. He wasn't called "The Bull" because he rolled over for anybody.

Hope your holiday is going great.

-Randy G.

Crold1
05-25-2008, 04:14 PM
Just adding my 2 cents...I'll vote for Tyson when he's eligible. First ballot? Hmmmm...that's a tougher question. No doubt he'll get in but that's because the IBHOF is biased, IMO, towards Heavyweights. Would Ingo be in had he posted his resume in any other division after all?

Still, Tyson was TYSON and he requires one to make an argument against rather than for (meaning ask the average cat "Tyson in the HOF" and they'll look at you like 'duh?').

Obama fan
05-25-2008, 04:41 PM
Randy,

Your talents never cease to amaze me.

I had no idea you were training professional fighters.

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, with all your contact with experts like Bert Sugar and Herbert Goldman.

Randy Gordon
05-25-2008, 05:18 PM
Crold1: I think this is a very interesting topic, whether Mike Tyson should be voted into the IBHOF when his time comes up in a few years.

While I do believe he'll get in, I'm not sure if I would bet on it being on the first try. I am with a lot of other members of the CBZ who feel that Tyson's out-of-the-ring problems and crimes should not be considered when checking (or not checking) the box that'll be next to his name on the HOF ballot. However, it's his in-the-ring actions that count.

Mike was not exactly exemplary and a model of a Hall of Fame fighter in many of his fights. He butted, elbowed and used street tactics quite often. Of course, his double ear-munch of Evander Holyfield was the lowest of the low. If asked following that fight whether he belongs in the Hall of Fame, I wouldn't be surprised if 100% of those being polled answered emphatically "No!" And that goes for even Tyson's staunchest fans.

Tyson truly had the chance during his career to carry boxing on his broad shoulders to heights of popularity it hadn't seen in years. He couldn't do it. He failed miserably. Like the movie, "Sliding Doors," I can't help but think of the condition boxing would be in today if things had gone differently for Tyson...if Don King hadn't been with him...if Robin Givens hadn't been with him...if Cus D'Amato had lived a few more years...the same for Jim Jacobs. It's an interesting thought.

However, it's only a thought. Tyson did what he did. And while I believe he is a Hall of Fame fighter, I don't believe he deserves a first-ballot induction.

-Randy G.

Crold1
05-25-2008, 07:37 PM
Randy:
Don't you think sometimes that Don gets a bad rap with Mike. I mean, if Jacobs lives, if he stays with Rooney, MAYBE he stays clean but Mike's demons were there all along. Isn't there a hell of a chance he falls apart no matter what?

BTW, you're spot on with Monzon. Just a beastly fighter.

PeteLeo
05-25-2008, 08:23 PM
Wasn't the fight against Willie Taylor the one in which Conteh broke his right hand for the first time? If I'm remembering correctly, that injury recurred throughout the remainder of his career and threw a major detour into its upward arc. PeteLeo.

Randy Gordon
05-26-2008, 12:50 AM
Pete: I'm pretty sure you're correct about Conteh breaking his right hand against Willie Taylor in Scranton. I went into his dressing room with Larry Holmes after the fight and Conteh had his hand in a bucket of ice as he talked to a few of the local reporters. Also, if you check Conteh's record, the next bout he had was against Yaqui Lopez, 14 months later. Like so many fighters, that fragile hand became as tough a foe for him as any opponent he ever faced. A few years later, heavyweight Gerrie Coetzee would have the same problem with a crytalline-like right.

Speaking of broken right hands, Paulie Malignaggi just broke his right knuckle in his narrow win the other night. That's at least the second time Paulie has broken the hand in his career. I'm hoping it heals in time to get him into the ring against Ricky Hatton in the Fall.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
05-27-2008, 02:45 AM
Apparently everyone who sits Ringside at a fight, is a trainer.

Or maybe I'm reading that wrong.

Like Iskigoe and the majority of everyone else posting on this thread, there is a lot of great stuff here. And thanks agian Commish.

I guess the "twit" comments, that are not as clever as those who write them, think they are, are just something we all have to tolerate.

Oh well.

Hawk

Mike DeLisa
05-27-2008, 06:56 PM
Obama fan --

stop being an unctious douchebag or i will ban you from this board. You are in my house. Behave yourself or I will throw you out.

Randy Gordon
05-27-2008, 07:18 PM
Crold1: You asked, "Don't you think sometimes that Don gets a bad rap with Mike?"

No I don't. I have no idea how much $$$ DK made off of Tyson, but I am sure it was a heavyweight bundle. How about all the stock DK was given by the MGM for signing Tyson to fight for them when he was released from prison after serving time for the Desiree Washington incident. After Tyson's chowdown of Evander Holyfield's ears, DK was told by the MGM to take Tyson and get lost. DK was paid off for the stock. It was millions of dollars. How much did DK throw back in Tyson's direction, being that it was Tyson's presence which got DK the deal in the first place? How much? I'm waiting for an answer. And Tyson is still waiting for his money.

Want more? Go ask Steve Lott--one of the truly upstanding gentlemen you will ever meet, and a man who may have been the most positive influence in Tyson's life--if DK gets a bad rap.

There's a book worth of DK stories in his relationship with Mike Tyson.

A very thick book.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
05-29-2008, 12:10 PM
Just thumbing through an Oct 1981 issue of the Ring. It was the first best fighter Poll you guys did.

And in the accompanying article, there is a full page cartoon drawn by Charlie McGill.

Seeing the Old Cartoons in Boxing Magazines is something I miss quite a bit. Any stories or tales to share regarding McGill who always seemed to nail what ever fighter to made a characiture of?

Hawk

Randy Gordon
05-29-2008, 04:49 PM
Nothing about Charlie McGill, other than the fact he was one one the great cartoonists I have ever seen and simply a great caricaturist (I may have just made up a word). In all of his cartoons, he had a guy in a hat and another guy with a large moustache somewhere in the cartoon. The guy with the hat was Bert. The moustached guy was him. I have a few of his original drawings in my home. One day, I may donate them to the IBHOF.

Charlie could take a photo of a guy, stare at it for a few minutes, then sit down and draw an unbelievable likeness of the guy. He was just an incredibly talented artist--and a great guy.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
05-29-2008, 05:15 PM
McGill was my absolute Favorite Boxing Cartoonist. But Al Kratzer and Luis Perez, who Bert had at Boxing Illustrated for quite some time, were two others I really enjoyed and appreciated.

The little things about Boxing magazines that made such a big difference.

Now it's all about shiney colorful pages.

Gimme my B&W Newprint paper and some 'toon work in my boxing mags!!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
05-31-2008, 02:09 AM
Well, the day is here. After a morning of training, I am headed with my Sirius "Fight Club" crew to th Prudential Center in Newark, New Jersey, to watch an MMA show which'll be shown live on CBS tonight. Do we see boxing on CBS?

No we don't.

How about on NBC or ABC?

Again, no we don't.

Tonight, love it or hate it--and most of you reading this probably hate it!--MMA will get even bigger and more popular in front of a nation already obsessed with it. Tonight, Robbie Lawler will face Scott Smith in what should be a great bout. And the nation will see Gina Carano. And they'll see the New York "Badass," Phil Baroni, face Joe Villasenor.

And they'll get to see Kimbo Slice, the most exciting fighter since a young Mike Tyson captured our imagination over 20 years ago.

Kimbo's opponent is 6'5" and around 270 pounds. He's called "The Colossus." And he's primed to take a colossal fall against Kimbo, probably in the first round, probably within the first minute, after a Kimbo Slice right hand nearly decapitates him.

I wish it was boxing that was getting this kind of publicity and limelight. But it's the red-hot sport of MMA.

I'm looking forward to doing my boxing training this morning, to working out with my "White Collar" boxers and my aspiring Panamanian heavyweight (who is looking tremendous in his workouts). But tonight belongs to MMA. And to Kimbo Slice.

Tell me you're not gonna' watch it.

I'll check in with all of you tomorrow--after I check in with Kimbo tonight.

-Randy G.

PeteLeo
05-31-2008, 07:57 AM
Tell me you're not gonna' watch it.
-Randy G.


I'm not gonna watch it. I saw enough of "streetfighter" Kimbo Slice on YouTube while he was chunking around a bunch of nonentities and then getting his own ass KO'd by a guy who had enough amateur boxing experience to stay out of his way for a few minutes while Kimbo's clock ran down.

At least he didn't do the "roll on the floor for twenty excruciatingly boring minutes before somebody gives up" crap. PeteLeo.

Randy Gordon
05-31-2008, 08:28 AM
I hear what you're saying, Pete. I'm just filled with curiosity. Kimbo was nothing more than a tough stree fighter then. He's been training for quite awhile with former MMA champion Bas Rutten and I want to see how much he's improved. I watched him train under Bas a few months ago, and I must say that in the four rounds I saw him spar (boxing) and three more on the ground, his stamina was terrific.

I'm gonna' go for curiosity reasons and to get a few sound bites for my show on Sirius, which is 70% MMA and 30% boxing.

Whatever you do tonight, have a great time!

-Randy G.

Obama fan
05-31-2008, 10:41 AM
. . .

my show on Sirius, which is 70% MMA and 30% boxing.

. . .

-Randy G.


"my show on Sirius, which is 70% MMA and 30% boxing."

That is DISGUSTING.

But at least you know where the money is, don't you Randy?

"Boxing commissioner" my ass.

Obama fan
05-31-2008, 10:45 AM
Obama fan --
stop being an unctious douchebag or i will ban you from this board. You are in my house. Behave yourself or I will throw you out.

Mike,

Are you telling me that the boxing commissioner with the 37-2 amateur record (along with his flunkie Hawkins) comes running to you when he can’t handle his own business?

Unctuous is definitely the word for Randy Gordon’s self-promotion that you enable here.

Non-physical ‘twits’ like yourself and Randy Gordon who have never had any actual physical contact with what boxing is in the real world but who attempt to attach yourselves like parasites on the periphery of boxing are laughable to those of us who do have a background in the sport.

As for your “house” here, it is a pretty sorry excuse for one from what I have seen.

As for you Mike, you can kiss my ass.

HE Grant
05-31-2008, 10:57 AM
I will watch the card tonight, why not ... Gina is hot and Kimbo is a phenom .. I am sure they are doing their best to bring him along against very unthreatening opposition as there are many guys out there that would bring him down in seconds but he is explosive and exciting ... more a muscular, younger Butterbean than a young Tyson but definately fun to watch in the controlled enviornment they allow for him ... they should put him in with Bob Sapp ... Good luck tonight Randy! It's nice to see a sport on an upward part of a curve ...

KOJOE90
05-31-2008, 11:13 AM
With reference to John Conteh, his trainer George Francis said he felt Conteh was never quite the same after his fight with Jorge Victor Ahumada. He said that fight just seemed to take 'something' out of him almost as if Conteh was never willing to dig quite so deep again.

hawk5ins
05-31-2008, 02:31 PM
Anyone here besides me have to look up the word Unctuous?

Ok, Lets' get back to the GOOD stuff on this thread!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
05-31-2008, 10:16 PM
Just got home from the Prudential Center in Newark, where I got to see quite an exciting night of fights (even if it wasn't boxing).

Then, still smiling from the fun night, I headed out into cyberspace, where I saw there was another butt-whupping,this one far more brutal than the one Kimbo layed on James Thompson. The only difference here was that muscle wasn't required--brainpower was. The poor victim, without anything upstairs, was in way over his head. For him, it was like throwing spitballs at a battleship. Ooh, it was not a pretty sight. Thankfully, the big "O," as in ZerO, was put out of his misery early and his pieces scattered throughout cyberspace.

Now, onto the CBS show. Gathering from the cell phone calls and text messages I received, the show looked great and sounded great. The matches were action-packed and competitive. Hey, even the Kimbo Slice fight was a two-sided fight, with Kimbo on the precipice of defeat several times. I really must watch the replay, because a bunch of ringside folks could have sworn they saw Kimbo tap out (resign) the round prior to his winning on a TKO.

Now, with the clock telling me it's past 3:00 a.m. and me having to get up and head to the gym in under three hours, it's time to say goodnight. My eyes are heavy, my fingers feel like lead, my whole body is tired and I'm unctuous (some say).

Thanks for the fun night, everybody.

It's time to start concentating on the IBHOF weekend (see ya' there, Mike)and on the Kelly Pavlik-Gary Lockett fight coming up.

-Randy G

HE Grant
06-01-2008, 03:36 AM
I watched the matches and the deal about Kimbo is out ...

he is a very hard hitting slugger/striker.

he is taking his attempt at MMA very seriously and has managed to significantly improve his wrestling tactics. He is far superior to the street brawling legend of Youtube lore. He has greatly improved his conditioning as well. The Kimbo that was mugged by Sean Gannon in his one Youtube loss was in far inferior condition to the man I saw last night ...

That being said, Kimbo must be far closer to forty than the 34 he is listed as .. he is no kid. He is also still a novice in MMA and I doubt his dedication is going to make up for the vast learning curve necessary to be a top fighter at his age.

Last night Kimbo showed a hell of a lot of heart. He was getting pummeled for the final 70 seconds of the second round and really looked lost. He did not know what to do but took it. I was almost amazed the ref did not stop the fight but then again I was not as the third round was to prove ....

Kimbo , with all of two previous MMA bouts under his belt, one against a 46 year old former boxer, is the promoters attempt at the games first cross over superstar, and they are doing everything possible to have him last. They are promoting their own Butterbean as their own young Tyson ... Kimbo got such a gift stoppage last night that it was both revolting and revealing ... it immediately proved to me that MMA will be as crooked as boxing ... the other fighter put up a hell of a fight and would have won if the ref did not stop it to save Kimbo's ass .. Kimbo came out for that third round so exhausted no one was more amazed over the gift stoppage than he was ... from this point on they will be more and more careful with whom they match him ... real fighters will call him out and eventually he will have to fight one and he will be taken to the mat and forced to submit in one round ... till then he will be matched more carefully than Monte Masters ...

Whatever, Gina was hot !!!

Randy Gordon
06-01-2008, 12:02 PM
HE: Man, you are right on the money with your post. While Kimbo certainly looked better than he has looked in his previous outings, he indeed showed he is light years away from climbing in the cage with a seasoned MMA heavyweight. Promoter Gary Shaw said he'd put Kimbo in tomorrow against Wladimir Klitschko. Why? So he can get Kimbo slaughtered?

For one night, Kimbo and his mystique was a lot of fun. But as far as I am concerned, that mystique is gone. I saw all I had to see. I think all of us did.

Gina Carano? Now she's another story!

-Randy G.

HE Grant
06-01-2008, 12:45 PM
Randy I am interested in your thoughts once you have watched a taped version ... it is easy to have slightly different thoughts when seeing such an event live .. all joking aside, Kimbo v.s. Bob Sapp would be a super fight between two extremely charismatic , physically imposing, well promoted characters ...

By the way .. what was the deal with the opponent coming in with an ear in that condition? I cannot tell you how many people today told me they felt the fight was clearly fixed ...

Randy Gordon
06-01-2008, 01:17 PM
HE: In your last post, you wrote, "What was the deal with the opponent coming in with an ear in that condition?"

As I haven't watched the tape yet, I am wondering "What condition?" I am so used to these MMA guys have cauliflower ears that I don't even notice it any more when a guy steps in the ring/cage/octagon wearing a vegetable for an ear. Is that what you were referring to?

-Randy G.

evander
06-01-2008, 01:20 PM
Hi Randy,

I was curious about what your thoughts were on watching Holyfield & Tyson coming up the ranks as pros, and if you felt early on....that they would eventually meet in the ring?



Thanks
Rene

HE Grant
06-01-2008, 02:30 PM
That was no cauliflower ear , it was like Basilo's eye in the second Robinson fight ... a swollen pocket filled with fluid ... that is why it popped and blood flew everywhere when Kimbo connected on it ... it was like he popped a water balloon ...

hawk5ins
06-03-2008, 07:43 AM
I just read Evan's post while eating lunch.

Much appreciated compadre.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-03-2008, 05:53 PM
I got a look at a segment of the Kimbo Slice-James Thompson fight today while at Sirius Radio. Yeh, that ear did indeed look like an overripe eggplant. I have no idea why/how the NJSACB allowed a fighter to compete with such a injury.

And please, don't tell me it's something ridiculous like, "We all know just how on the take state athletic commissions can be. Why, if I were commissioner..."

Save it.

I hope to have Nick Lembo, head of the NJSACB, as a guest on my show next week. Hopefully, he'll be able to answer that question.

-Randy G.

Mike DeLisa
06-04-2008, 04:57 AM
Ask him also why so many MMA fighters have cauliflower ears.

This sort of disfiguring injury was virtually eliminated in boxing -- it is fairly disgusting to see young guys with these ears.

Randy Gordon
06-04-2008, 07:23 AM
The reason so many MMA athletes have cauliflower ears is that they practice their trade quite often without the use of headgear. They may practice the boxing aspect of the sport wearing head protection, but they grapple and train in the "ground portion" of their game without using any headgear or even any ear protection (sort of like an MMA earmuff). Thus, they are often taking punches, slaps, kicks, knees and various other strikes to the ears, which injure the ear and cause it to swell with fluid. Repeated swelling over several years causes the "Cauliflower Ear Syndrome" which is so common among those in MMA. Because of the advancement in both use and technology of headgear, we are seeing less and less of cauliflower ear among boxers.

Basically, boxers use headgear during training, MMA athletes do not.

Thus, the "Eggplant Ear" we saw on Kimbo Slice's opponent, James Thompson, last Saturday night.

I watched the tape again. It gets more grotesque every time I watch!

-Randy G

hawk5ins
06-04-2008, 07:48 AM
I'm curious about how you got so deeply invovled in the MMA stuff.

I understand your Sirius Network Radio show, has a large portion dedicated to MMA, whihc as you and I have discussed, is dictated by those who are referred to as the "bosses"! (Hope you don't mind me referenceing conversations we've had in PM world. I think it's obvious I'm not attempting to make public, pieces of OUR Private Conversations that were INTENDED to REMAIN Private. But at the same time I did want to acknowledge that, YES, we did discuss your Radio Show "Off-Thread".).

But what came first: The provierbial Chicken or the Egg? Has you interest in MMA been the result of the show or did your following or involvement come first?

I obviously have not yet (if ever, to be honest) bridged over to MMA, so forgive me my ignorance if you have had invovlement in the sport for years now or if it predated your radio show. I simply don't know enough about MMA and other associated Sports.

So much for me being your lackey. HA!

Thanks Randy. All I want is another history lesson!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-04-2008, 05:43 PM
Hawk: I don't mind answering your question to me about my love for MMA, for I know it is well-intentioned, unlike an imbecile whose IQ was about two points higher than an asparagus and who recently was bounced from this board.

My involvement with MMA goes back about 15 years, when Bob Meyrowitz, the original owner of the UFC, approached me (I was then the Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission) and asked me to sanction the sport his organization was involved with--Mixed Martial Arts.

I watched a few of his shows and absolutely hated what I saw. It was, as Senator John McCain called it, "Human Cockfighting." Bert Sugar called it (and still does) "Street Fighting Without the Beer Bottles." So, I banned it in New York. I left the NYSAC in 1995, and soon after, Gov. George "Whacky" Pataki signed a bill banning MMA within New York's borders.

Over the next few years, MMA and the UFC floundered. Most states, other than Colorado, did not accept the sport. Then, a set of rules were put into place by New Jersey State Athletic Commissioner Larry Hazzard. The UFC then began promoting shows in New Jersey. Many other states followed New Jersey's lead. Among them were California and Nevada. Marc Ratner, the Executive Director in Nevada, had once scorned and disliked MMA in the same manner I did. But he watched it. He studied it. He began to like it. The more he watched, the more he enjoyed it. A few years ago, the UFC made Ratner an offer he couldn't refuse. They would pay him per year almost four times what he was earning at the NSAC. Four times! If you enjoyed something very much and a job opened up in that field, offering you FOUR TIMES what you are currently earning, would you leave your position? Of course you would. Ratner left his position with the NSAC to join the UFC as their Vice-President of Regulatory Affairs.

Well, the years went by and I watched with interest as the sport of MMA and the promotional outfit called the UFC--the company I banned in New York years earlier--became bigger and bigger. The sport changed. I believed, and still do, that it changed for the better.

I began to watch every show on MMA that I could find. I added MMA to my almost daily diet of boxing. If it was boxing or MMA and it was on TV, you can bet I was either watching it or taping it to be watched later. While I still love boxing, and love it with a passion, I have now adopted another child--MMA.

Last May, I sent a letter--a proposal--for a boxing show to Sirius Radio. MMA was not mentioned in my letter. The show was to be 100% boxing.
I was invited in for an interview. Guess what happened? The Vice-President of Programming thought about it for a second, took a deep breath and then said, "Boxing is in the doldrums. The sport has become boring. Very little is happening. And the only things that ARE happening are not good." He thanked me for coming in and told me it was a pleasure to meet me. Before he could show me to the door, I said, "How about a show on MMA?" He just looked at me in puzzlement.

"But you're a boxing guy," he said. "What do you know about MMA?"

I told him I had two passions. One was boxing. The other MMA. We talked for a few minutes. I gave him an idea for an MMA talk show. Then, right there, right away, he bought my idea and bought the show. "Fight Club" was born right there in his office. He circled a date on a calendar on his desk. Six weeks from the date I sat there I'd be on the air as the host of the Sirius "Fight Club." I took time off from my training sessions and studied as much MMA as I could.

My new boss told me I could talk about boxing on the show, but I should keep the boxing talk to a minimum. He said a 95%-5% split between MMA and boxing, with MMA getting the 95%, would be fine. I didn't like that, but as the new kid on the Sirius block, I didn't want to make waves. The boss wanted MMA, and MMA is what he would get.

Well, July 3 will be my first anniversary as Host of the "Fight Club." I have since taken on a co-host--Chris Thomas--and we're about to add a second "Fight Club" per week to our schedule. We're #1 in our time slot and #1 on the channel we broadcast on. And, our split is no loner 95%-5%. It's more like 70%-30% (MMA-boxing). And there is nothing disgusting about that, as the imbecile alluded to in his post a few days ago. (The imbecile obviously needed to take his medication and anti-depressants before he wrote his letter).

Very soon I am going to be starting a new show, in addition to the "Fight Club" shows I do. The new one will be 100% boxing. And Sirius and I are negotiating with a very big name in the business to co-host the show with me. I hope we can seal the deal. I'd love to work with this person on a show such as the one we have planned.

I am going to Canastota this week. I am going to be taping the Kelly Pavlik-Gary Lockett fight so I can watch when I get home Sunday night. On Monday morning, I'll be in the gym at 5:00 training my Panamanian heavyweight. Later that day I'll be working with my Golden Gloves champion. Does it sound like I have abandoned boxing?

Marc Ratner didn't abandon boxing either. He still loves it and watches every fight he can. But, like me, he has also adopted a new child--MMA.

There's nothing wrong with that. A parent can have lots of children and love each of them the same. I love my boxing and I love my MMA.

And I love the CBZ and you guys (even the imbecile and his friends!).

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-05-2008, 02:30 AM
I appreciate the insight.

Not saying I'll ever "Cross the Bridge", but it was very interesting to hear about how you became involved and how it goes back to your Days as NYSAC.

Quick question about when you left your post as commisioner, I know it was 1995, but what was the date that you left your post to go over to Foxwoods? Can you recall?

I did want to make a point about PM's and posting info from those PM's into a Thread. Obviously there are discussions that NEED to remain Private and are not for public consumption. I wanted to clarify, that that was not a bridge (what is it with me and bridges?) that I was crossing with any Ill intent.

Thanks agian.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-05-2008, 05:10 AM
I left the NYSAC in mid-June, 1995, replaced by my dear friend, former heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson. I started work for Foxwoods about four months later.

What was done to Patterson in his two years as Chairman of the NYSAC is an embarrassment and a travesty. Patterson brought with him his friend/driver (and a bunch of other terms) with him into the commission. Other men, both in Albany and in NYC, were added to the commission as deputies and athletic assistants. They began to use Patterson's failing health as a springboard to the Chairmanship, and for the next five years or so, the NYSAC became the laughing stock of the boxing world. A power-play for Patterson's job began, especially after he left a little over two years after taking over as Chairman.

But, your question was when did I leave the commission, not about the ugly power play which ensued following my departure.

Have fun at your daughter's (both of them) recital. I'm proud you made the choice to be there and not up at Canastota. You'll have a great time and be grinning ear to ear after seeing those little cuties in action. Maybe next year you'll join me and some of my "boxing crazies" at the BBQ on Saturday, the memorabilia show on Saturday afternoon, the dinner on Saturday night, the "Parade of Champions" on Sunday morning and induction ceremony on Sunday afternoon. I'll keep ya' all posted and take lots of photos.

-Randy G.

P.S.--Aside from Mike DeLisa, whom I look forward to seeing, will anybody else from the CBZ be going to Canastota?

hawk5ins
06-05-2008, 05:28 AM
The added info helped address the questions I was looking for answers to. I was thinking it was mid year 1995, and I was correct.

Don't have TOO much fun at the Induction Ceremonies.

And please make sure you tell me it rained the whole weekend and you had a lousy time!

HA!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-05-2008, 08:11 AM
I've been told to expect temps in the upper 80's and humidity in the upper
90's in Canastota for the weekend. In other words, it's gonna' be HOT & MUGGY--lots of sweating going on--for Induction Weekend.

One of the guys I most look forward to seeing will be Gil Clancy, who goes up every year with his wife, Nancy (I know--Nancy Clancy!). The two of them are still high school sweethearts.

I'm gonna' try to get a shot of The Giller with Emile Griffith, who will also be on hand.

Among some of the other boxing celebs expected to be there, are: Alexis Arguello, Aaron Pryor, Carmen Basilio, James "Bonecrusher" Smith, Billy Backus, Micky Ward, Gerry Cooney, Bert Sugar, and, geez, a slew of others. I'm glad the digital recorder I'm bringing holds, not one hour, not 90 minutes, but 24 hours of material.

One of the stories I have to get on tape is from Carmen Basilio, who once told me he started to fight when some kids started making fun of his name, singing, "Carmen is a girl's name, Carmen is a girl's name...nah nah nah nah nah! I punched 'em all out and said 'You just got knocked out by a girl. Nah nah nah nah nah!'"

Yeh, there's gonna' be plenty of those kind of stories.

Hopefully, the Saturday night banquet moves along faster than it did last year. So many of these guys think they are after-dinner speakers, when in fact they're not any kind of speaker! Roberto Duran, one of last years' inductees, who CAN speak English, did not do so, but instead, labored on in Spanish for almost 30 minutes. People were falling asleep at their tables! I'm sure Larry Holmes will be great.

I'm gonna' bring along my laptop and see if I can get internet service from the IBHOF. If I can, I'll zap along some IBHOF notes & quotes.

I'm not leaving until very early Saturday morning, so I'll be back on with you boxing junkies later.

-Randy G.

tedsares
06-06-2008, 11:51 AM
I sure wish you could relate my feelings about Danny Lopez--and the Asian fighters--as set forth in threads above. Of course, that is if you are on the same page. If not, I totally understand.

My favorite times have always been the cocktail party and just mixing around the Hall grounds and in the hotel lobbies. I used to enjoy the memorabilia stuff but that has declined in recet years. Also, I loved the fights but tha also has stopped. Of course, a dinner at Graziano's is allways nice, particularly the roasted peppers and white pizza -- sluuurp! I go every other year and will attend next year. Have a great time, Randy and have one or two on me.

hawk5ins
06-06-2008, 04:06 PM
Steal me a program.

Thanks.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-06-2008, 05:13 PM
Well, the big day is just about here. A bunch of people--two in particular-- will be heading up on the stage with so many eyes upon them.

Their friends and family will be so proud as they perform as only they can, then receive flowers from their loved ones.

The moment will be captured on photos and on tape, to be looked at and watched for decades to come.

Yes, on Saturday, June 7, Abigail and Caitlin Hawkins will dance away in front of daddy Jeff (Hawk5ins) Hawkins and their mommy and a lot of friends and relatives at the Paramount Theatre in Rutland, Vermont.

Be proud, Hawk, be proud. I'll be sure to "Hawk" an IBHOF Program for you.

-Randy G.

P.S.--Remember to have flowers ready to give them after their performance (my daughters always loved that, and today, as women, tell me they loved it when I gave them flowers after their recital).

Randy Gordon
06-06-2008, 05:22 PM
Ted: I have seen the list of Asian fighters who are not in the Hall of Fame and agree that many of them should be in there.

I will answer in full in a few days, after I return from the IBHOF Weekend.

And as for Danny "Little Red" Lopez, of course he belongs in there. I will speak to Herb Goldman, the HOF's resident historian, about seeing what, if anything, we can do to push the amazing "Little Red" into the hallowed halls of Canastota.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-07-2008, 02:31 AM
My Wife has already threatened me within an INCH of my life about the Flowers.

Lucky for me, RIGHT accross the street from the theater is a flower shop.

On it Randy!

Have a great weekend!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-08-2008, 03:56 AM
Hawk: Having a great time...got you a program. Be back on late tonight when I get back to L.I.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-08-2008, 08:43 AM
Glad you had a blast. My Duaghter's Recital while a tad long, was very nice. We took the baby and that probably was not the right call. She's nearly 2 but 3 hours is a lot to ask of a 23 month old.

You have to fill us in with what went on with Holmes. Sounds like an ugly scene.

Will refrain from passing judgement either way until I hear more from you as to what exactly happened.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-10-2008, 06:04 PM
The IBHOF weekend was a real hit (excuse the pun)! I have received a lot of e-mails and phone calls about some of Larry Holmes' remarks, especially one about Rocky Marciano.

If you recall, back in September 1985, Larry Holmes gave light heavyweight champ Michael Spinks a shot at his heavyweight title. Holmes was 48-0. Spinks was 27-0. A victory in this fight would tie Rocky Marciano's record for a heavyweight champion at 49-0. It was not to be. Spinks came away with a unanimous decision and the heavyweight championship.

Following the fight, Holmes stormed out of the ring without talking to the audience which was watching on HBO.

Minutes later, HBO commentator Larry Merchant was dispatched to the Holmes dressing room in an effort to secure an interview. He got what he came for--and more!

In discussing the loss, Holmes talked about how it left him one victory shy of Marciano's record. He then said, as he discusssed the "Brockton Blockbuster," Rocky Marciano could not have carried my jock strap," and wrapped it up with, "and if you don't like that, you can kiss me where the sun don't shine, and that's on my big, black behind." The firestorm that followed was unmerciful. Holmes was called everything from a racist and bigot to being insensitive and heartless. Eventually, he met with the surviving members of Rocky's family and apologized for the remarks.

In private, Holmes had told me on several occasions since then that he never meant to hurt the Marciano's in any way, that he respects all that Marciano was as a fighter, a husband, a father, a family man, and a friend. I believed him then. I still do.

Yes, I still do, even after this past weekend. During his acceptance speech in Canastota, Holmes said "There has been something that has been bothering me since 1985, and I have held it in all these years." He quickly reminded the large audience about his 1985 remark about Marciano. He said he still feels that way. But, he did it in a light-hearted sort of way, one that made most of the audience laugh.

"Muhammad Ali always said he was 'The Greatest,'" Holmes remarked. "That's his opinion. I say I was 'The Greatest.' That's my opinion. It's my opinion I could have beaten all these heavyweight champions. That includes Rocky Marciano." And it was Marciano's record Holmes was chasing, hence the remark (though he could have found another way to say it!).

He joked about Bert Sugar, too.

"Bert said I was the best heavyweight of all time," Holmes told the crowd, "but then ranked me behind George Foreman. What's up with that?" Everyone laughed.

Could Larry Holmes have beaten Rocky Marciano? You didn't ask, but I'll give you my opinion, anyway.

Yes, Holmes would have beaten Marciano. Decisively. He would have cut Marciano three different ways: Wide! Deep! Often! He would have done the same to a lot of other heavyweight champions.

Larry Holmes was a talented, gifted king of the heavyweights. He deserves to be in the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

Oh, and Hawk, congratulations on getting through the dance recital of two of your daughters. As I haven't seen anything online or in the papers about a guy from Vermont being chopped up by his wife for forgetting flowers for the dance recital of their daughters, this tells me you did the right thing and bought those cuties a couple of hefty bouquets. When the pressure is on, Hawk, you come through.

You make the IDHOF.

The International Daddy Hall of Fame.

-Randy G.

Phillyfan
06-10-2008, 10:25 PM
Mr. gordon. i love and collect the old Ring magazines. I think the old weston covers with lamotta, beau jack, gavilan, kid matthews are classic. My favorite has to be the hagler in the superman outfit. Also, hearns with the machine gun, Jeff chandler close up with hood on, Bramble with the snake, Don King, michael olijide, and darrin van horn, mcguigan close up. just great covers. interesting they used dry ice for the saad muhammad cover since his nickname in the philly gangs was 'iceman". Todays covers are horrible. The best thing KO did was insert the fighter centerfold. i miss those. Which are some of your favoite cover shots?

hawk5ins
06-10-2008, 11:39 PM
I appreciate the kind words.

I also happen to agree with your take on Holmes Marciano. I think it would have been a favorable matchup for Larry.

Holmes I hear, went into the Hall, as a Great Grandfather.

Now THAT has to be a first. A fighter inducted in his first year of eligibility, but Also a GREAT Grandfather?

Yikes.

Glad you had a great weekend. I did too. The flowers were a hit.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-11-2008, 08:38 AM
Philly: I love those old covers, too. Many of them were painted by my old boss, Stanley Weston. In my five years at The Ring, my favorite cover was undoubtedly the Thomas Hearns "Hitman Cover." In a previous post, I talked about how the idea of putting Hearns on the cover in a pose like that began, and of the succeeding discussion between Publisher Bert Sugar and myself to make the cover become a reality.

The Matthew Saad Muhammad cover was, artistically, one of the best Ring covers ever. It is a classic shot with Saad sitting in a "thinker-like" pose in a white robe. An eerie cloud-like appearance was provided by dry ice on the floor and out of view. It really is a beautiful, frameable cover.

Believe it or not, the"Howard Cosell Cover" also became one of my favorites. That one was totally Bert's idea. As much as I tried to talk him out of it, his feeling was that fight fans will buy the magazine because it's The Ring, others will buy the magazine out of curiosity and their familiarity with the legendary sportscaster. Bert was correct. The magazine was a major hit at the newsstands.

Also, our very first issue together--October 1979--with Muhammad Ali on the cover was among my favorites. It is a tight head shot with a plum-colored background. To me, the magazine is special because it hsowed the boxing world that Bert and I were for real, that Ring Magazine, which was basically a dead magazine before the Sugar-Gordon takeover, was back and better than ever>

You said "today's covers are horrible." Funny, but I hear that from a lot of boxing fans. Ring's putting Floyd Mayweather in a gangster-like pose on their cover a year or so ago is a flattering way of Editor Nigel Collins telling Bert and I how great he thought the Thomas Hearns "Hitman Cover" was, now let him try and make some money doing the same thing with one of the sport's top stars.

My home office is a museum of boxing memorabilia, and the walls a tribute to many of the incredible covers whih graced The Ring between October 1979 and late 1984.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-11-2008, 12:56 PM
Dec 1980
Oct 1980
Jul 1981
Sep 1981
Feb 1982
Mar 1983

All from the Sugar/Gordon era!

http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine_Covers:_1979
http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine_Covers:_1980
http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine_Covers:_1981
http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine_Covers:_1982
http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine_Covers:_1983
http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine_Covers:_1984


Hawk

walshb
06-11-2008, 01:41 PM
Holmes is a bit of an ass and a bullshitter. He did indeed mean those 1985 remarks
and only apologised because he realised what an ass he was and how badly it went down; and he is still bringing it up now, as well as crapping on about him being the greatest. He always envied Ali and Ali's popularity. It's hardly surprising why, Larry, you were never really appreciated or liked much

hawk5ins
06-11-2008, 02:08 PM
Raining on Larry's parade so soon after induction weekend.

Ahhhhhhh.... Larry had his moment.

Let's get back to the bashing!

Woo Hoo!

Hawk

gregbeyer
06-11-2008, 03:24 PM
i doubt i'll ever make a complete crossover to mma from boxing but i am surprised that this kimbo guy got all the press after uriah faber and jens pulver put on a great fight and show of courage.

maybe its the same heavyweight symdrome that boxing suffers from. the little guys in mma seem as over shadowed as are guys like vasquez and marquez are in boxing by the big slow boring fat guys....too bad.

i will be looking in on uriah again and they don't make guys tougher than jens pulver.

greg

Phillyfan
06-11-2008, 04:20 PM
Holmes is a bit of an ass and a bullshitter. He did indeed mean those 1985 remarks
and only apologised because he realised what an ass he was and how badly it went down; and he is still bringing it up now, as well as crapping on about him being the greatest. He always envied Ali and Ali's popularity. It's hardly surprising why, Larry, you were never really appreciated or liked much

I think he did mean those remarks back in 1985. He was probably right too. It was also heat of the moment and I think he truly regrets saying it or he wouldn't bring it up on "his " day when he didn't have too.
Yes, he envied Ali, who wouldn't? Ali could have stepped up and made Holmes transition to champion easier though. One word from Ali and his fans would have embraced larry . yet Ali has all the class.
Larry feels he's the greatest, what wrong with that? I feel bad that he has to sit through a BS program like the greatest top heavyweights and have Bert Sugar sit directly next to him and rank him number 10 to his face. The man did everything he could in boxing. Top 3 at least.

walshb
06-11-2008, 04:29 PM
I think he did mean those remarks back in 1985. He was probably right too. It was also heat of the moment and I think he truly regrets saying it or he wouldn't bring it up on "his " day when he didn't have too.
Yes, he envied Ali, who wouldn't? Ali could have stepped up and made Holmes transition to champion easier though. One word from Ali and his fans would have embraced larry . yet Ali has all the class.
Larry feels he's the greatest, what wrong with that? I feel bad that he has to sit through a BS program like the greatest top heavyweights and have Bert Sugar sit directly next to him and rank him number 10 to his face. The man did everything he could in boxing. Top 3 at least.
Holmes has shown two really nasty sides; bitterness and jealousy, and folks make excuses for it

hawk5ins
06-11-2008, 04:35 PM
It's been 3 days.

Let's have at it.

Hawk

Phillyfan
06-11-2008, 05:53 PM
Holmes has shown two really nasty sides; bitterness and jealousy, and folks make excuses for it


He has also shown me humor, generousity, and friendliness. The good far outweighs the bad. Have you ever sat down and talked to him or even met him? When I visited his gym a few years ago he let my 5 year daughter run around his ring and even told her the story of "humpidy dumpidy". I've had lunch with him, jimmy young , and ernie terrell and he paid for it all and was cracking jokes left and right. He supports many charities in and around easton. I've seen those sides of him which is why i disagree with you.

Randy Gordon
06-12-2008, 07:43 AM
Sorry for not jumping in here earlier and adding my two cents, guys. Severe storms in the area have been causing power outages and such...my internet service has been messed up for a few day. Looks like I can head back into cyberspace again, so...

Walsh: Maybe it's because I was with Larry Holmes from the beginning of his career, which was the beginning of my boxing writing, as well, that I am among Larry's loyal legion of admirers.

Now, I certainly didn't admire him when he made that statement about Rocky Marciano in 1985 and I have been all over him about numerous questionable things he's done. But I've come to realize that's who Larry Holmes is. And, believe me, there is a lot of good in that man.

Walking in the shadow of the legendary Muhammad Ali certainly didn't do anything to enhance his image in any way. He wasn't Ali in the ring and he wasn't Ali outside of the ring, either.

I believe Holmes, when he says, "I respect Rocky Marciano as a man and a fighter." He has said that in public and he has told me that one on one. He has also said to me, "But even though I respect him, I don't believe he could have beaten me." He agrees that he could have chosen a different way to say it back in 1985, after suffering his first loss to Michael Spinks.

And, I must say, it was a wierd feeling having two of his children--daughter Candi and son Larry Jr.--both of whom I pushed in a stroller on visits to Easton, PA, come up to me as beautiful, grown adults and give me a hug. Larry's wife, Diane, doesn't even look like a grandmother, much less a great grandmother. She was always wonderful to the media, and hasn't changed a bit.

All of you should try to get there next year. (I do realize the prices are rather steep, between travel, the HOF tix, dinners, hotel, etc.)

If you have half as much fun as I had last weekend, you'll have a great time.
For me, Induction Weekend at the IBHOF 2008 was a very special time. It was worth every penny.


-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
06-12-2008, 08:02 AM
Greg: You are so right about the "little guys" not getting enough credit for being the real warriors in both boxing and MMA.

In boxing, almost every division up to--but EXCLUDING heavyweight--is exciting. Honestly, how many times have you sat down to watch a replay of Wladimir Klitschko-Sultan Ibragimov? It was barely watchable the first time. But the Israel Vasquez-Rafael Marquez wars? I watch them every chance I can. Geez, they are unbelievable! And Antonio Margarito? Who doesn't want to see him in action? And BJ Penn. And Urijah Faber.

Soon, Hasim Rahman will "battle" James Toney. Ho-hum. Another stellar evening for the heavyweight division. Don't all of us wish we could come back as heavyweights and clean this mess up? Now, the winner of Rahman-Toney (or even the loser!) against Kimbo Slice! Now we're talking!

Yes, Greg, the Pachyderm Division is in a coma. No movement. No thrills. No excitement. Nothing.

Bring on the "little guys." In both boxing and MMA, they are where the real excitement is.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-12-2008, 08:05 AM
Lat's focus on the Positive on Holmes at least through the weekend, to give Holmes some appreciation.

Then Next week "we" can get back to bashing, if that is what is felt is needed.

Now on the great Grand father/Mother point Randy, was it Kandi, the daughter Larry had with Diane, that has had not only a duaghter, but whose daughter had a child, or is it one of Larry's other daughters?

I do know he had a couple of children that were older than the two he had with Diane, from previous relationships.

I've seen recent pictures of Diane and I will be flabergasted if not only is she a Grandmother, but a GREAT Grandmother to boot!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-12-2008, 08:14 AM
Hawk: Larry's great grandson is from his oldest child, from a relationship he was in pre-Diane. Kandi is now about 28 years old and engaged to be married very soon. So, while Larry is the great grandfather, Diane becomes the "step-great grandmother."

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
06-12-2008, 09:07 AM
Later this afternoon, following my gym sessions, a studio session for Sirius Radio and a quick swim and short nap by my pool, I will give you my Induction Weekend 2008, Hall of Fame Diary.

Betcha' can't wait!

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-12-2008, 09:26 AM
Phew Randy!

Thanks for clearing that up!

Hawk

wildhawke11
06-12-2008, 11:05 AM
Yes, Holmes would have beaten Marciano. Decisively. He would have cut Marciano three different ways: Wide! Deep! Often! He would have done the same to a lot of other heavyweight champions.


Randy
Often when Marciano stepped into the ring the so called experts said Marciano was going to lose this one. Problem was nobody told Rocky that. Watching from a ringside seat and thinking you could beat this crude slugger was a totally different ball game from going into the ring with a guy who broke bones, never stopped coming at you and seemed to get stronger as each round went by. Yes i am sure it would have been an easy night for Holmes. Then again its hard enough to get today's fights right so i guess i can forgive you on this one :)

Randy Gordon
06-12-2008, 11:25 AM
Wildhawke: One of my favorite games in sports is playing, "Do You Think (Fighter) Could Have Beaten (Fighter)? Joe Frazier-Mike Tyson. Carlos Monzon-Bernard Hopkins. Miguel Cotto-Sugar Ray Leonard. And on an on.

I realize that Rocky Marciano was a devastating puncher and a helluva fighter with a heart as big as Mt. Everest. And in A Marciano-Larry Holmes fight, would they be fighting under the rule and guidelines of the 1950's or from this era? Big question. A split nose would certainly bring about the end of the fight today. Today, a referee wouldn't walk to Marciano's corner and say,"You've got one more round, Rock, or I'm gonna' stop it." That split nose would certainly bring an end to the fight almost immediately.

So, we all can have our opinion on the outcome of a Marciano-Holmes fight. But to one man--Larry Holmes--that outcome is always the same.

And he doesn't hold back in telling us that!

-Randy G.

wildhawke11
06-12-2008, 04:33 PM
Wildhawke: One of my favorite games in sports is playing, "Do You Think (Fighter) Could Have Beaten (Fighter)? Joe Frazier-Mike Tyson. Carlos Monzon-Bernard Hopkins. Miguel Cotto-Sugar Ray Leonard. And on an on.

I realize that Rocky Marciano was a devastating puncher and a helluva fighter with a heart as big as Mt. Everest. And in A Marciano-Larry Holmes fight, would they be fighting under the rule and guidelines of the 1950's or from this era? Big question. A split nose would certainly bring about the end of the fight today. Today, a referee wouldn't walk to Marciano's corner and say,"You've got one more round, Rock, or I'm gonna' stop it." That split nose would certainly bring an end to the fight almost immediately.

So, we all can have our opinion on the outcome of a Marciano-Holmes fight. But to one man--Larry Holmes--that outcome is always the same.

And he doesn't hold back in telling us that!

-Randy G.


I guess if Larry says it enough times he might start to believe it Randy.
I often wonder if Rocky had met Larry for a chat if he would have asked Holmes what it feels like to lose a pro fight. In the end all you can be is the best of your time and both were that.
Thanks Randy

Randy Gordon
06-12-2008, 05:08 PM
I hear ya', Wildhawke. Marciano was indeed the best of his era and Holmes the best of his. However, I just find it so much fun to mentally match up these guys from different eras against each other. As far as being correct, there is no way to tell. Hey, I picked Vernon Forrest over Sergio Mora. 'Nuff said! Dream matchups are exactly that--mental images and pictures and thoughts you have about a particular fight that took place only in your mind.

And in my mind, Rocky Marciano vs. Larry Holmes is indeed among my top dream matchups.

Time to go back and dream some more!
-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-12-2008, 05:08 PM
I beleive it.

I beleive Holmes would have beaten Marciano if they fought.

(I said it...I Beleive it!)

Larry is at least not alone in his thoughts here.

As a matter of fact, he's got a lot of company.

As an aside here, I often wonder if Holmes ever met Marciano, if he would have asked Rocky if he felt he would still would have ended his career undefeated, if he put his title on the line 21 times as opposed to only 7.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-12-2008, 06:31 PM
THE IBHOF INDUCTION WEEKEND, 2008 (Part I)

The Randymobile pulled away from the house shortly before 6:00 a.m. on Saturday, June 7. Its destination: The International Boxing Hall of Fame in Canastota, New York.

On board were myself, my wife Roni, and two friends, Peter and Wayne. By trade, Peter is a high school music teacher and Wayne works for the Town of Hempstead on Long Island. Peter’s hobby is photography. He is the photographer for the L.I. Ducks baseball team. He also loves shooting football (he shoots a lot for the N.Y. Jets) and boxing. Wayne’s hobby is refereeing. He holds a referee’s license with the New York State Athletic Commission. He recently refereed the 12-round snoozefest between Wladimir Klitschko and Sultan Ibragimov (yes, he’s THAT Wayne--“Irish” Wayne Kelly).

Our plan was to be at the Hall of Fame in Canastota before noon, even with a planned stop at Syracuse University. We were headed to the land of the Orangemen to pick up my daughter, Greer, who recently graduated with a Master’s in Speech Pathology, and is now in the final few weeks of finishing up her analysis at a local hospital and her thesis.

We made great time, even stopping along the way at the famed Roscoe Diner, right off the Thruway, and about 90 minutes or so outside of Syracuse. At around 10:45, we arrived at Greer’s sorority house, needing to be talked in by Greer, as it appeared my GPS was “lost.” As it turned out, I punched in the wrong address, really confusing the poor ‘ol GPS.

After arriving at Greer’s place and getting through lots of hugs and kisses and unpacking, we jumped back in the Randymobile and took off for the IBHOF. About 20 minutes later we were there. It was before noon, which we had planned on from the start.

We parked directly across the street from The Hall, then got out, cameras and microphones in hand (I was doing interviews for my show on Sirius Radio). As I opened the door of my air-conditioned car, we knew it was hot. My temperature gauge read 94. When the door opened, it felt hotter. The humidity was also in the high 90’s.

The 200-yard walk to the speaking area under the overhang had the four of us already sweating. Up on the stage, conducting a Q & A with the large crowd was my close friend, journalist Steve Farhood. When I left Stanley Weston’s publications in the summer of 1979, headed to join Bert Sugar at The Ring, Farhood, who had just joined the staff, was the first--and only--guy I told of my impending move. For two months, Farhood and I kept the secret. Finally, when I left, Farhood took my place. Years later, when Weston purchased The Ring and when I was commissioner in New York, Farhood became the magazine’s editor. I am sure that if he was the magazine’s Editor-in-Chief today, and under the ownership of “Golden Boy Productions,” Ring Magazine would be bigger than ever. Steve Farhood is one of the finest gentlemen I have ever met. I hope you all have a chance to meet Farhood one day.

In the ring set up off to the side, Christy Martin worked the mitts of her trainer as Farhood spoke. I stood in the back, watching Ms. Martin and listening to Farhood.

As I stood in the back, a man in his early 50’s approached me, throwing playful jabs at me (it wouldn’t be the International Boxing Hall of Fame unless people were throwing playful punches and posing with fists on your chin!). It was Hall-of-Famer, Aaron “The Hawk” Pryor. I thought he looked great. We spoke for a few minutes, then I headed into the building which houses the boxing ring donated by Madison Square Garden last year. It was also where I would pick up my dinner tickets, my card show tickets, my cocktail party tickets, my induction ceremony tickets and my Working Press pass.

Inside, I ran into referee Frank Cappuccino of Philadelphia (remember ring announcer Ed Derian saying, “Referee Frank Cap/uh/CHEEEEEE/no”) and judge Chuck Williams of Hawaii. We hugged and took pictures. Of course, fists were placed on each other’s chin!

We went back outside and listened to Farhood field more questions. Then he finished his session and stepped down, graciously signing autographs along the way. I waited until he was done, then greeted Steve. A photographer asked us to pose for him and even sent me the shot via e-mail, which was very nice of him.

It was broiling, and the sweat was flowing freely on all of us. As Farhood hung out and signed autographs, the four of us headed across the street to “Graziano’s Restaurant,” where so many of the boxing community converge. On the way to Graziano's we spotted Bert Sugar. Greer said, "Dad, there's 'Uncle Bert.'" I said, "C'mon, let's go over and say hello. I'll take your picture with him."

"Do you think he'll let me do the photo wearing his hat?" I just gave Greer a look that said, "Get real!"

Bert was as warm and engaging as ever. He was my boss and friend during our days at The Ring and he remains as one of my closest friends. When I asked him to pose for a picture with Greer, and she asked him "Can I wear your hat for the photo?" he gave her the same look I did a minute earlier. The photo still came out great. I'm gonna' see if I can get the photo up here.

We talked for perhaps 10 minutes under the blazing sun, making us more in need of Graziano's...some ice water and air conditioning.

This was one of the rare times Graziano’s was basically empty. At least there was air conditioning! We ate, fueled up, then got ready for a very busy afternoon.

From Graziano’s we drove less than a mile to Canastota High School, where the memorabilia show was going on. When we got out of the car, we ran into promoter J. Russell Peltz, who always has one of the best booths at the show. I talked to him for a minute of two, but wished it could have been longer. Peltz has always been one of my favorite people in boxing and I never have been able to spend the kind of time I’d like to with him talking about boxing. Hopefully, one day we will.

The non-air-conditioned gym where the memorabilia show took place was hot, but on this weekend, I was expecting to sweat, so the heat didn’t bother me a bit.

We only stayed at the show perhaps 30 minutes, then headed back to the IBHOF grounds. It was 1:30, and former heavyweight contender Gerry Cooner was the celebrity guest speaker. He was tremendous. He was warm, poignant, serious and funny.

Cooney was asked about his fight against Larry Holmes on June 11, 1982, a a racially-charged bout which Holmes won on a TKO in round 13.

After talking about the fight, Cooney held up his big left fist, which accounted for most of his 24 career knockouts, and yelled, “Where’s Larry Holmes? I want him here now.” Then he smiled and said, “I’m just kidding. Larry and I have become great friends.” And they have. It was a joy to watch them kidding with each other and posing for pictures throughout the weekend.

As Cooney was up on the stage, Hall-of-Fame trainer Lou Duva, whose ego is the only thing bigger than his stomach, walked up to share the stage with Cooney. A few moments later, Cooney saw Wayne Kelly, and told him to come up. The three then fielded questions from the crowd. I glowed when Duva called Kelly “the best referee in all of boxing.” The crowd politely applauded.

Following the threesome of Cooney-Duva-Kelly, Bert Sugar took the stage along with Angelo Dundee. Dundee just wrote a book, or should I say, told a story to Sugar, who then wrote the book. It was an interesting hour with Sugar and Dundee.

It was then time to head back to Greer’s sorority house, relax, and get ready for the banquet.

(To be continued)

Randy Gordon
06-12-2008, 09:01 PM
Larry Holmes said he had to get something off his chest at his induction ceremony, and he did. I have to get something off my chest, too. And I will.

The ticket to the banquet cost $135 apiece. For that money, you get to sit at a table of approximately 10 people in a room filled with perhaps 600 people, in front of a dais of two dozen boxing celebrities, eat, drink, talk boxing and have a good time. But the main course--grilled chicken breast along with filet mignon, was, well, so-so. That's not just commentary from this corner. We heard gripes from all over the room. But the biggest gripe is about the liquor. For $135 a ticket, you think they'd have an open bar. No sir. No ma'am. Drinks cost money, like everything else of the IBHOF weekend. They actually charge you for drinks!! That's hard to believe, especially for the price of the ticket. They did have complimentary wine on the table--two botrtles--but with 10 people at the table, two bottles are just not enough.

OK, enough bitching.

At the banquet, the dinner guests all mingle or sit at their respective tables and share boxing stories. I did that, but only for awhile. Then IBHOF Executive Director Ed Brophy took me into a large room in the back, where all the 2008 Inductees, other Hall members and honorees awaited their being paraded out in front of the large crowd.

The room was actually Fight Fan's Heaven. There, mingling about, was Larry Holmes, talking to former WBA heavyweight champion Ernie Terrell and former heavyweight contender George Chuvalo. Holmes saw me and greeted me with a hug.

A few moments later, as Holmes was hugging him, I heard, "You hold him, Larry, I'll work him over." A light left jab tapped my stomach. It was Marvelous Marvin Hagler. Geez, he still looks in fighting shape. Another hug followed.

A lady in a red jacket joined our group and said "Hi, Randy, it's been a long time. Where's Roni?" It was Christy Martin, who is soon going to be fighting again. She is looking for three victories to bring her career victory total to
50.

In the next few minutes, I saw Inductees Dave Anderson, Frank Warren, Mogens Palle and Joe Koizumi. It was Hug Central as I saw old friends Hector Camacho, Alexis Arguello, Carmen Basilio and Billy Backus (who was one of my Deputy Commissioners at the NYSAC). I saw Ron Lyle, Eddie Perkins, Michael Carbajal, Gil Clancy, Emile Griffith, Ruben Olivares and Jose Torres (who I didn't think looked well). I saw Jeff Chandler, but didn't get to speak with him. However, CBZ member Phillyfan was with Chandler and sent me his number. Jeff and I were on the phone this morning for 20 minutes.

Noticeable by his absence was Hall-of-Famer Arthur Mercante Sr., whom I cannot recall ever missing one of these events. I hear Mercante, who is in his late 80's, is not doing too well.

Finally, it was time to bring the stars out. Ed Brophy moved among our group and tried to get everyone's attention. They were too busy laughing and hugging and storytelling to hear him.

Brophy tapped me on the shoulder and asked, "Randy, please try and get these guys into a line by their number. We're about to start." I looked at Brophy and thought, "Do I really want to tell Hagler, Holmes, Camacho, Chuvalo, Arguello, Martin and the rest to shut up and get in line?" I did my best.

The dinner, which started at 7:00, was over around 11:00. I enjoyed all the speeches, especially because nobody rambled on like Roberto Duran did at last year's dinner.

This year's Induction Weekend had not one, but two, Grand Marshals. One was former Dallas Cowboy and boxer Ed "Too Tall" Jones. The other was comedian Pat Cooper. Both gave outstanding speeches. Cooper's, of course, was of the ultra-comedic nature. Jones surprised me by saying he'd trade his four Super Bowl rings for the chance to win a world boxing championship.

Overall, even with the cash bar, the dinner was a success.

The following morning, Roni and I, along with Wayne, Peter and Greer, went out to breakfast at a small but crowded pancake house about two miles from her sorority house. Then it was off to catch the Parade of Champions at noon and the inductions.

A massive downpour delayed the parade for awhile. A steady rain after that kept me in my seat under the roof at the IBHOF's Induction Plaza.

The speeches were all interesting, and I am proud to have worked in some manner with every one of the inductees (with the exception of Mogens Palle).

The Randymobile left minutes after the final speech of the afternoon, delivered by Larry Holmes. It was 4:30. With a food stop about two hours later, we were back on Long Island by 10:00.

The weekend was fantastic. I look forward to next year. With Greer no longer at Syracuse, we'll probably book a few nights at the Turning Stone Casino.

Only one thing: I think more of us from the CBZ should go, and get ourselves a table. That will make a great weekend even greater.

-Randy G.

Phillyfan
06-12-2008, 11:14 PM
Mr. Gordon. I'm glad you had a chance to talk to Jeff.
He was having problems all weekend with his ring. He must have put on a pound or two because the ring was a little tight and giving him circulation problems. i joked with him he should go up to too tall jones and flash the diamond chip under his nose and tell jones not to be jealous. I took a photo of the 2 of them and am waiting to get it developed.

Randy Gordon
06-15-2008, 12:19 PM
To all of you dads and grandpa's (and to great-grandpa Larry Holmes), Happy Father's Day. Kick back & enjoy the day. Feel the love. Then, take the entire family out to dinner later and be prepared to pay!

The best to all of you.

-Randy G.

walshb
06-16-2008, 06:43 AM
He has also shown me humor, generousity, and friendliness. The good far outweighs the bad. Have you ever sat down and talked to him or even met him? When I visited his gym a few years ago he let my 5 year daughter run around his ring and even told her the story of "humpidy dumpidy". I've had lunch with him, jimmy young , and ernie terrell and he paid for it all and was cracking jokes left and right. He supports many charities in and around easton. I've seen those sides of him which is why i disagree with you.
Hey, he's not all bad...

Randy Gordon
06-17-2008, 09:12 PM
Last week, at the IBHOF Induction weekend, I was asked by a couple of fans who I thought was the best ref out there...and who was the worst BIG NAME ref. Either could be active or retired.

I really considered not posting an answer here, but then thought, "Hey, it's just MY opinion, and I certainly can back up my picks, especially with my picks of the WORST.

I'll give you a quick answer here, but I think this topic can easily support a thread of its own.

My favorite ref today is Joe Cortez. Oh, he's had his off-moments, but I think those moments are few and far between. Anybody who has worked as many title bouts as he has and virtually always looks good--in my eyes--rates way up there.

Wayne Kelly is another outstanding referee. But, as he is also a close, personal friend, I'll withhold any further comments.

In my opinion, the MOST OVER-RATED bigtime ref was Arthur Mercante Sr. He did the high-profile Ingo Johannson-Floyd Patterson rematch and then became THE referee everyone looked to. That was the fight in which Patterson became the first man to regain the heavyweight title, when one of his leaping left hooks knocked Ingo quivering. Then, less than nine years later, Mercante reffed the first Joe Frazier-Muhammad Ali fight, and he became, not just THE ref in New York, but THE ref in boxing. Sorry, but I never bought into all his marketing.

He worked so far away from the fighters it was scary. And to think he actually was able to "sell" his theory to sportscasters such as Howard Cosell ("referees should be as far away from the action as possible") just boggles my mind. I went to a few of his referee seminars with the WBC and was staggered at how many referees were mesmerized by King Arthur. He was a good referee, but doesn't even fall into my Top 10 All-Time Referees.

I'd talk about Arthur Mercante Jr., but enough has been written about him on this site (see "Ron Lipton Thread"). I will say that I once thought he had it in him to become boxing's top referee. That thought was a long time ago. I believe that Arthur Sr. played a big hand in the ruination of his namesake as a ref.

In my opinion, the worst BIG NAME ref I've seen is Tony Perez. All I have to do is think of these three fights he reffed: Gerry Cooney vs. Ken Norton. Michael Spinks vs. Mustapha Wassaja. Ray Mercer vs. Tommy Morrison. My stomach turns when I think of them. There were more. Say no more.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-17-2008, 09:41 PM
ANd accurate Analysises, Randy.

I doubt there will be many arguments on these picks.

One of my favorite Refs, was the late Richard Greene. I just thought he was such a conssumate pro. I also miss the young Mitch Halpern quite a bit at well.

Two outstanding referees who the game is NOT better off with thier unfortunate losses.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-17-2008, 10:47 PM
Hawk: You are so right about Richard Green and Mitch Halpern both being A) quality referees and B) sorely missed.

For those who don't remember, both were Nevada referees. Both were among the best "third-men" around. Both died at their own hand.

I knew Green well, but I was very close friends with Halpern. I even stayed over his house when I flew to Las Vegas for the funeral of my dear friend, Chuck Minker, who died from lung cancer while serving as Executive Director of the Nevada State Athletic Commission (Chuck was replaced by Marc Ratner).

I believe that if Green and Halpern had not taken their lives, we'd be talking about them in terms of greatness.

-Randy G.

Phillyfan
06-17-2008, 11:10 PM
Randy,
just wondering about your thoughts on the new commissioner?
Also, do you still attend fights?

Randy Gordon
06-18-2008, 05:44 AM
Philly: You asked about my thoughts on the "new commissioner" and whether I still attend fights.

What "new commissioner?' What state? I gather you meanNew York. If that's the case, there are THREE commissioners in New York, with one of them being the Chairman (my old job). Currently, Ron Scott Stevens is the Chairman. One of the commissioners is former New York boxing judge Melvina Lathan. Recently, Gov. David Patterson appointed a retired court judge to be the third commissioner. His confirmation by the Senate is still pending.

Commissioner Lathan is a great appointment. When she loves both boxing and MMA, and will lead the way to New York opening its doors to the sport. Chairman Ron Scott Stevens is a good man, but over the last few years, is taking both himself and his job way too seriously.

You also asked if I still attend fights. I certainly do. I cover them for my show on Sirius Radio. Also, when Long Island promoter "Frankie G. Productions" puts on a fight card, I do the ring announcing for him. I also go to all the local (NY-NJ-CT) MMA shows.

So, between writing about boxing and talking about boxing and training in boxing, my life is boxing (and MMA) filled.

Do you attend many fights and what is your opinion of Pennsylvania commish Greg Sirb, an old friend of mine.

-Randy G.

Phillyfan
06-18-2008, 10:31 PM
Mr. gordon,
I thought Tony Orlando was recently appointed boxing commissioner in NY or NJ? Maybe i have my info wrong. Larry Hazards old job.
I still attend fights. I went to jones/trinidad and klitschko/ibragimov. The reason i asked if you attend is because I only saw very few boxers attend both events, pauli malinaggi and junior jones. It seems as though the boxers don't even attend/support the boxing events anymore. I don't enjoy watching hatton fight but I love the enthusiasm the british fans bring. Can you see planeloads of american fans flying to britian to watch a fight?
You have an interesting take on arthur mercante. Its nice to see someone give an honest opinion and cut thru the hype and BS. someone who doesn't have an agenda.
I do not know the philly commissioner and don't really have an opinion.Except for jimmy binns who I don't especially like. I do know my favorite venue for fights, the blue horizon has put on some serious stinkers in the past few years. Even Russell hasn't put on the best shows at his new location, the alhambra. If you're up for attending a fight in philly, drop me a pm and we can visit some of your old friends.

Randy Gordon
06-19-2008, 08:27 AM
Philly: While I have also heard that former ref Tony Orlando has been named the new commissioner in New Jersey, apparently such is NOT the case, at least not as of this writing.

I do believe Orlando is one of a few names I know of who are being interviewed for the job as NJ Boxing Commissioner. Counsel Nick Lembo is serving as the interim commissioner, and doing a great job.

You don't like watching Ricky Hatton fight? Why not? You know you're in for an action bout when he's in there. As far as his fans are concerned, they really are tremendous. No, I cannot imagine planeloads of Americans flying to England to watch a fellow countryman compete over there.

The Blu Horizon...ahhh, I loved that place. I was announcing on USA Network with Al Albert when USA did its first fight from there. We were so excited to be there that USA continued to go back over and over, even doing their final broadcast from there.

I am not familiar with the Alhambra, other than hearing about shows from there. What is it? A nightclub-type place? Don't worry about Russell Peltz' shows. He is a great promoter and knows how to put on barnburners. I think I'd rather attend a Peltz Promotion card than any other promoter. He'll be fine.

While I'd love to take a drive or train ride to Philly for a fight card or some catching up with old friends, my schedule just won't permit it. Between my gym work, my show on Sirius Radio, covering fights for Sirius (both boxing and MMA), writing my book and spending quality time with my large and getting-larger-by-the-year family, I barely have time to stop to gas up the Randymobile (I paid $4.39.9 yesterday here on L.I.).

But one day I will get down to the City of Brotherly Love again. Oh, and I did call Joltin' Jeff Chandler. We talked for perhaps 20 minutes. As we were hanging up, he said, "Please call me again. Don't be a stranger." I promised I would call soon. Know what? I think today's that day.

-Randy G.

TKO11
06-19-2008, 09:11 AM
Randy - I haven't been posting much in the last few years (after being one of the site's "opinion on everything" guys for the previous few), but I still check in regularly and read most of the topics. I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the material you post - it is always insightful and thoughtful and entertaining. I'm really glad we have you here. Your posts on the induction weekend above read almost like an article from a magazine - they are terrific.

hawk5ins
06-19-2008, 09:42 AM
(after being one of the site's "opinion on everything" guys for the previous few)

Good thing there was a sub handy to pick up the slack in your absence.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-19-2008, 09:47 AM
TKO: Welcome back onto the site. Why have you been away from us? It's funny, but I used to just read the posts here every day, then leave without posting anything. About three months ago, I was given this thread and here we are.

I thank you for your kind words, but writing about boxing has always been something I've enjoyed more than anything else. Boxing is an incredibly exciting sport at any level. At its best, there is nothing like it.

I really hope you return to these pages on a regular basis. You really did have an "opinion on everything," and I think most of us enjoyed that. I know I did. For me, would you please get back on here on a regular basis?

If you want, I'll even beg and plead!

I hope to be chatting with you, soon.

Be well.

-Randy G.

Sharkey
06-19-2008, 10:22 AM
Too Sweet,

I echo and amplify TKO's observations. This is usually, for me, a read and keep quiet thread.. the info and observations are terrific. Kind of like listening to the war stories of a wisened, grizzled vet.. you feel lucky when they want to share their experience.

I don't know if you have had the occassion, but if you have, is it possible to relate what it's like to deal with Bob Arum? I realize the question might be like asking someone to explain why water is wet.

TKO11
06-19-2008, 01:27 PM
Randy - thanks for the kind and unexpected compliment. I haven't made much of a presence of late (though I have been around) simply because I got tired of being told I was wrong by people that thought boxing began in 1986. Who needs the aggravation? But one of these days I'd love to make it to Canastota in June, especially after reading your piece on it. Hell, I'll even spot you the first two rounds. Who needs an open bar?

Phillyfan
06-19-2008, 01:29 PM
I was excited to finally see hatton when he fought castillo. I was expecting a mickey ward non stop punching exhibition. I thought he held a bit too much for my taste.maybe I'm remembering it wrong or the cocktails got to me. I have nothing against hatton, he's just not all I expected. I also think him and his fans are the best thing to happen to boxing in quite a while. I wish the exhuberance would catch on here.

Randy Gordon
06-19-2008, 01:35 PM
Sharkey: It still takes some getting used to when I hear someone call me something like an "old sage" or a "grizzled vet." I still see myself as Stanley Weston's 25-year-old "cub reporter" who was scared out of his mind to have his first big interview; a sitdown with heavyweight contender Jerry Quarry. As it turned out, I became very close with Jerry and his beautiful wife, "Charlie," though she hurt him more than Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier and Ken Norton ever did.

Your question: "What was it like to deal with Bob Arum" indeed will take a lot of megabytes. He is a well-educated man (Harvard) and is a ruthless businessman. He is truly Don King's counterpart without the flamboyance and charisma.

One day, I'll post a chapter from the book I am working on right here on CBZ. The chapter is entitled, "A Choice To Make." In it, I detail a run-in I had with Arum and matchmaker Teddy Brenner regarding a fight they were promoting on ESPN in September 1982, Billy Collins Jr. vs. Eddie Flanning. At the time, I was sharing ESPN's analyst duties with Al Bernstein.

For years, the battle raged between me and Top Rank. Then, not long after I became commissioner in 1988, we buried the hatchet.

During my years as commissioner, I sanctioned many fights in New York which were promoted by Arum and Top Rank. I found him easy to work with. A few weeks ago, on my trip to Canastota, N.Y., for the IBHOF Induction Weekend, I saw Arum briefly. He looked good, but he also looked old. Hey, he's pushing 77. For some, that's still young. Arum is starting to wear each of those years.

He was voted into the IBHOF several years ago.

There is no question he deserves a plaque on the wall.

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
06-19-2008, 01:40 PM
TKO: Don't worry about what others say or feel. Your feelings and beliefs count as much as theirs. Geez, if I took to the road every time somebody told me I was wrong or they didn't agree with what I said or how I felt, I'd be on the road every day.

Get back over here, and let's talk some boxing!

Speak to ya' soon.

-Randy G.

Sharkey
06-19-2008, 01:53 PM
Sharkey: It still takes some getting used to when I hear someone call me something like an "old sage" or a "grizzled vet." I still see myself as Stanley Weston's 25-year-old "cub reporter" who was scared out of his mind to have his first big interview; a sitdown with heavyweight contender Jerry Quarry. As it turned out, I became very close with Jerry and his beautiful wife, "Charlie," though she hurt him more than Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier and Ken Norton ever did.

Your question: "What was it like to deal with Bob Arum" indeed will take a lot of megabytes. He is a well-educated man (Harvard) and is a ruthless businessman. He is truly Don King's counterpart without the flamboyance and charisma.

One day, I'll post a chapter from the book I am working on right here on CBZ. The chapter is entitled, "A Choice To Make." In it, I detail a run-in I had with Arum and matchmaker Teddy Brenner regarding a fight they were promoting on ESPN in September 1982, Billy Collins Jr. vs. Eddie Flanning. At the time, I was sharing ESPN's analyst duties with Al Bernstein.

For years, the battle raged between me and Top Rank. Then, not long after I became commissioner in 1988, we buried the hatchet.

During my years as commissioner, I sanctioned many fights in New York which were promoted by Arum and Top Rank. I found him easy to work with. A few weeks ago, on my trip to Canastota, N.Y., for the IBHOF Induction Weekend, I saw Arum briefly. He looked good, but he also looked old. Hey, he's pushing 77. For some, that's still young. Arum is starting to wear each of those years.

He was voted into the IBHOF several years ago.

There is no question he deserves a plaque on the wall.

-Randy G.

Randy,

Wasn't calling YOU old or grizzled, just that this thread, like when your grandpa would sit you down totell you something, demands your full attention and it's worth every second spent reading it.

thanks for the answer, kind of what I expected the answer to be: "Arum? Sure I'll tell ya...got a week?"

Randy Gordon
06-19-2008, 01:57 PM
Sharkey: Don't think for a moment I was annoyed at being called "grizzled." Hey, Arum is almost 77. I'm not THAT old, but getting there. After four decades in this biz, I've earned it: "A grizzled veteran."

Yeh, and I could go on for a week about Arum!

-Randy G.

wildhawke11
06-19-2008, 07:36 PM
Young wildhawke11
Born 4th March 1939

gregbeyer
06-19-2008, 08:26 PM
geez danny...you must have an autographed picture of christ.

greg

kikibalt
06-19-2008, 09:03 PM
Too Sweet,

I echo and amplify TKO's observations. This is usually, for me, a read and keep quiet thread.. the info and observations are terrific. Kind of like listening to the war stories of a wisened, grizzled vet.. you feel lucky when they want to share their experience.

I don't know if you have had the occassion, but if you have, is it possible to relate what it's like to deal with Bob Arum? I realize the question might be like asking someone to explain why water is wet.

Shark,

You didn't ask me, but I'll you tell anyway...;) , I found Arum easier to deal with, then his late sidekick out of Las Vegas, Mel Greb, now Greb was a hard dude to deal with.

kikibalt
06-19-2008, 09:07 PM
Young wildhawke11
Born 4th March 1939

You're a young man, Danny.

Sharkey
06-20-2008, 08:47 AM
Shark,

You didn't ask me, but I'll you tell anyway...;) , I found Arum easier to deal with, then his late sidekick out of Las Vegas, Mel Greb, now Greb was a hard dude to deal with.

Frank,

I would like it if you told me stuff I didn't ask more regularly..I have heard that about Mel Greb.. I've read a lot about how honest and wonderful he was as well. Was he hard-nosed and shrewd.. or an arrogant petty guy?

hawk5ins
06-20-2008, 09:03 AM
I second this!

"I would like it if you told me stuff I didn't ask more regularly"

I would certainly appreciate you giving me answers to the questions you THINK I should ask!

That would save so much time Frank and the learning process would be sped up quite a bit!

Hawk

kikibalt
06-20-2008, 11:19 AM
Frank,

I would like it if you told me stuff I didn't ask more regularly..I have heard that about Mel Greb.. I've read a lot about how honest and wonderful he was as well. Was he hard-nosed and shrewd.. or an arrogant petty guy?

Shark,

No I didn't fine Greb to be arrogant, not in the sense of the word, I did fine him to be hard-nosed, shrewd, if you let him be , for example, he would want you to sign contracts with out reading them, and if you had, rooms, per-dim and airline tickets, he didn't want to write them on the contract, he would tell you "Just take my word" I'm not the smartest guy around, but I know better then that.

After Tony's fight with Robin Blake, we got pay our money and I'm still owned $500 bucks that I had put out of my pocket for airline tickets, I told Bob Arum, "Bob you still own me $500 bucks" he tell me "see Mel Greb" so I go to Mel, and I tell him "Mel, I'm still owned $ 500 bucks and Bob said to see you about getting my money" he digs in his pocket and pulls out a roll of nothing but 100 dollar bills, he gives me $400, and I tell him, "Mel its 5 not 4 hundred dollars, he tell me "ah! take the 4" I said no , he gave me the $100s and he never had a good word to say about me after that, Jim Montoya used to tell me "Mel Greb don't like you" and I would tell Jimmy "yeah, and I know why"

Arrogant? well maybe.

kikibalt
06-20-2008, 11:23 AM
I second this!

"I would like it if you told me stuff I didn't ask more regularly"

I would certainly appreciate you giving me answers to the questions you THINK I should ask!

That would save so much time Frank and the learning process would be sped up quite a bit!

Hawk

Hawk

You do alright on your own, you and Chris are two of the best posters on this site, as you know I don't post here much any more, but I like to read you and Chris, so keep up the good work.

Sharkey
06-20-2008, 11:44 AM
Shark,

No I didn't fine Greb to be arrogant, not in the sense of the word, I did fine him to be hard-nosed, shrewd, if you let him be , for example, he would want you to sign contracts with out reading them, and if you had, rooms, per-dim and airline tickets, he didn't want to write them on the contract, he would tell you "Just take my word" I'm not the smartest guy around, but I know better then that.

After Tony's fight with Robin Blake, we got pay our money and I'm still owned $500 bucks that I had put out of my pocket for airline tickets, I told Bob Arum, "Bob you still own me $500 bucks" he tell me "see Mel Greb" so I go to Mel, and I tell him "Mel, I'm still owned $ 500 bucks and Bob said to see you about getting my money" he digs in his pocket and pulls out a roll of nothing but 100 dollar bills, he gives me $400, and I tell him, "Mel its 5 not 4 hundred dollars, he tell me "ah! take the 4" I said no , he gave me the $100s and he never had a good word to say about me after that, Jim Montoya used to tell me "Mel Greb don't like you" and I would tell Jimmy "yeah, and I know why"

Arrogant? well maybe.

WOW.

hawk5ins
06-20-2008, 11:50 AM
From a "Read it" History and a "Viewed it" History, I think I can contribute.

But you come from a "Lived it" History.

THAT type of perspective, is where I am so fortunate to be able to soak up the knowledge you share with us.

Being able to converse with those Invovled in the sport like your self and the Commish and others here..........Well, without being TOO much of a "suck up", let's just say I find what You guys contribute on CBZ to be nothing short of invaluable.

THanks Again.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-20-2008, 12:17 PM
I was sitting here shaking my head in agreement with Frank as he told his Mel "I Owe You $$$" Greb story. Frank wasn't alone when it came to being stiffed by Greb. Chris Dundee was also the same way. They both would say things like, "I haven't had a chance to have my secretary make travel arrangements, so just go to the airport and pick up a ticket. You'll be reimbursed at the other end." Of course, at the other end, there would be a "cash flow problem" and "I'll put a check in the mail to you first thing in the morning." Yeh, right.

Yeh, Frank...we learn so much more as we get older. Promoter Frank Warren, who was recently inducted into the IBHOF, has many of those Mel Greb/Chris Dundee characteristics. Don't ya' wish more people could just do the "right thing" all the time?

-Randy G.

Phillyfan
06-20-2008, 11:58 PM
Randy,
In Larrys induction speech, he thanked Don King. The impression a lot of people have is Don King took a lot of money from a lot of fighters. I've never heard any fighter really say a negative thing that I can remembr about king. Jimmy Young would tell me he loved seeing don because don would always slip him a few bucks. Buddy Mcgirt said he would rather fight for don king although he took more money, you also made you more money. Johnny Lira said he used to see guys in don kings office all the time asking for loans or advances on their next purses. Whats your opinion on Don? And do you think larry owes don any sort of thank you?

Austin
06-21-2008, 11:25 AM
Hi Randy,

I just noticed your post on page 12 #351, regarding your opinion on referees. I found it thought provoking and decided to weight in. If you asked 10 people to list their 10 favorite refs, it’s unlikely that any 2 lists would be the same.

When I watch a fight on TV I hope to see Dick Flaherty, Steve Smoger or Tony Weeks as the 3rd man. On an expanded list I’d add Ron Lipton’s name, as I loved his work in the 90’s.

All 4 men look professional when entering the ring. Although Smoger might finish 4th in a footrace between them, none appear out of shape. I know that Flaherty and Lipton have boxed themselves in addition to being a ref which contributes to their excellent body of work. I lack knowledge regarding the background of Weeks and Smoger. A good 3rd man should rarely be seen unless there is a rule infraction. Their job is to insure the seamless flow of action and not change the outcome do to unnecessary interference. When these 4 men speak it’s succinctly and germane to the rules of boxing. Finally they show good judgment when stopping a fight; acting neither prematurely or endangering the safety of the boxer by waiting too long. As a result my favorite refs are; Dick Flaherty, Steve Smoger, Tony Weeks and Ron Lipton!!

My least favorites would have to be Jay Nady, Joe Cortez and Randy Newman as they repeatedly become part of the action and influence the outcome of a fight. I saw the replay of Abraham V Miranda I on TV the other night and couldn’t believe how confused Newman appeared to be. I feel that Joe Cortez has slipped badly the last few years and Nady’s work I never enjoyed.

Love to get your feedback, regarding my picks.

Austin

Mike DeLisa
06-21-2008, 11:41 PM
Flaherty is getting a little old and perhaps should make a transition to judging only -- I like him but he has shown signs of slowing down recently and has been out of position in a few bouts.

Other than that, i agree with Austin -- and for sure Nady and Cortez are the worst.

Nady does not understand the rules of boxing at all.

Randy Gordon
06-22-2008, 11:03 PM
I agree with a number of points both Austin and Mike DeLisa made.

Austin, I certainly think it's a given that no matter how many people you'd ask to put together a Top-10 Ref's List, all 10 would be as different as night and day.

I don't necessarily agree that having been a fighter will contribute to a man (or woman's) body of work. Joe Louis and Jersey Joe Walcott were two of the best heavyweights the division has ever seen--and two of the worst referees ever to step into a ring.

As far as a referee not being seen unless there is a rule infraction, that is something that King Arthur (Mercante) professed over and over, and even got sportscaster Howard Cosell to parrot Mercante's sales-pitch repeatedly (despite the fact that Cosell didn't particularly like King Arthur.) A ref needs to be close and fast-enough to stay in that "open door" at virtually all time and not behind either fighter. His reaction time needs to be in milli-seconds. Remember, one more punch is all it takes to send a fighter into The Great Beyond. That's why I loved watching--and this will draw flak--the ultra-fast Larry Hazzard. Oh, so what that he was a showman. He was much more of a great referee than a showman. I'm telling you--try to get a look at the Matthew Saad Muhammad-Jerry "The Bull" Martin fight. You may never see a better stoppage.

Also, the more fights a person works as a referee, the more chances he has to look good--or to make some mistakes. Remember, a judge holds the livelihood of the fighter in his (or her) hands. The referee holds the fighter's life in his hands. Hopefully, a referee's mistake will be miniscule and not catastrophic. So, the more fights a ref works, the more errors you are bound to see, in addition to his volumes of great work.

I just don't agree that Joe Cortez is among the worst, as Mike stated. Why is he "the worst?" The worst? I mean, there are some bad ones out there, but Cortez? Puh-leeeez! (Okay, we don't like his "I'm firm but I'm fair!") He moves well, positions himself just fine and is there to uphold the rules or to stop a fight when it needs to be stopped.

I know, Cortez' detractors are going to give me a few instances where JC messed up. And I'll follow and give them 20 major fights he worked perfectly and flawlessly.

No basketball player hits every free throw. No excellent fielder in baseball goes errorless throughout a season. No ref in any sport goes from game to game without jumping in with a questionable call. JC is not perfect. But who is, especially when you're working as many fights as he is?

Dick Flaherty: Fine ref. Outstanding boxing guy. But I do agree he may be slowing a bit. The next time I see him work a fight I'll let you know what I think. Maybe it's time for him to exclusively stay at the judges' table and score 'em.

-Randy G.

Surf-Bat
06-23-2008, 12:14 AM
Call me a sadist, but I always liked Rudy Battle. He reminded me of those old school refs who just let the guys tear each other apart. Knocked down and looking woozy? Rudy wipes your gloves and tosses you back in. I loved the way he used to ref Simon Brown fights.

The only way Archie Moore wouldn't have suffered a TKO to Yvonne Durrell if they'd fought today is if Battle were the ref.

BTW, Mr. Gordon does make some good points regarding Cortez. Totally true. But I am having a hard time forgiving him for his intrusive, mother hen performance in the Mayweather/Hatton bout. I'll get over it I guess.

hawk5ins
06-23-2008, 01:54 PM
He's not perfect. He does a few things that irritate me. But I would also rank him as one of the better ref's in the game today.

There is a Pile load of inferior ref's below Joe.

Hawk

thewonderful134
06-23-2008, 08:10 PM
This might sound like fistic blasphemy, but I never liked Auther Mercantes style of refereeing. I always thought he gave an unfair advantage to the boxer over the puncher in a bout. Anytime puncher A got boxer B on the ropes and there was a clinch, Mercante would not only break the fighters up, but he would then move the fighters off the ropes and into the center of the ring. If I"m the puncher in this particular instance, it"s my job to trap the boxer on the ropes, it's the boxers job to move an get off the ropes, it is not the ref's job to help him off the ropes. I always prefered Carlos Padilla's ( I hope I spelled that right) style, he broke the clinch, but didn't break the fighters or pull them off the ropes

Randy Gordon
06-23-2008, 09:25 PM
There are quite a few refs out there who don't get enough credit. One of them is Florida's Telis Assimenios. He was just recently seen as the third man in the Arthur Abraham stoppage of Edison Miranda. Telis did a fine job, especially in that final round, when Miranda hit the floor three times. He kept his cool, took a look into Miranda's eyes after the first two knockdowns and let the fight continue. When Miranda went down the third time, it was time for him to hit the showers.
.
Bad referees? Oh, there are plenty out there.

One night, I once had a referee show up with liquor on his breath. I told him he wasn't going to work that night. He went crazy, yelling at me in front of several of my inspectors and a deputy commissioner. Naturally, he didn't work that night--and for many, many nights afterwards. He tried to turn it into a racial issue, but that quickly went nowhere.

Another time, as I was making the assignments for the evening, I overheard a referee say to another ref, as I was walking away, "I'm glad the commissioner gave me that fight."

I stopped in my tracks.

"Why?" I asked. "I heard that. Why are you glad?"

"Oh, it's just a little something personal," he said.

"Excuse me?" I said, wearing a concerned look.

Well, it turns out that the referee had reffed one of the fighters before and stopped the fight, handing said fighter his first defeat. The fighter immediately protested the stoppage, but to no avail. Afterwards, the fighter had unkind words to say to the ref in the dressing room area. The ref never told the commission about the incident, nor did I ever hear about the incident until that moment. Now, the ref was drooling over the fact I was putting him back for another chance to ref this guy again. I quickly changed assignments. The ref knew better than to even moan about it.

Also, in high-profile fights, both camps get ultra-picky when it comes to who they want and don't want as referee.

Back in 1993, when Buddy McGirt was getting set to defend his welterweight title against Pernell Whitaker, both camps were adamant about who they wanted and didn't want as referee. The Whitaker camp, with ego maniac Lou Duva in charge, wasn't happy with any New York referee.

"McGirt is a New York fighter," Duva told me. "A New York ref will be favoring him."

That was a total croc and Duva knew it, but I wasn't going to cave in for some out-of-town ref who Duva wanted. The McGirt camp had no problem with my choice of referee, so long as it was MY choice and not Duva's.

That's when I got an idea that I'm still proud of. I would choose, as the referee for the fight: Larry Hazzard, the NJ Commissioner.

TOMORROW: Sweet Pea, Buddy & Larry

Randy Gordon
06-23-2008, 09:52 PM
TheWonderful 134: Don't feel that knocking King Arthur Mercante is fistic blasphemy. He may have been the most overrated referee of all time. Don't get me wrong, the guy was good, but I never considered him great. Two very high-profile fights--Floyd Patterson-Ingemar Johansson II and Joe Frazier-Muhammad Ali--contributed to the legend of King Arthur.

I totally agree with you on King Arthur's very frustrating habit of, not only breaking fighters up on the ropes, but then walking them to the middle of the ring, especially when the slugger had the boxer backed against the ropes. I don't think any referee's actions have ever pissed me off as much as that one.

He once told me he was thinking of opening a school for referees, where he would hold calisthenic classes and teach men how to referee. When I asked him "Would women be included, too?" he just looked at me and said, "You've got to be kidding...a female referee? That's absurd!"

Part of his referee training was that move on the ropes. Another was the breaking up of fighters by giving each a sharp slap on the back the very first time he broke them up.

"After the first slap, the fighters know you mean business," he said. "They'd almost break on their own. All it takes is a sharp verbal command: "Break!"

I could go on for quite awhile about the legend of King Arthur, but will save his tribute to my book, which is about 85% complete.

I call the chapter dedicated to him "The Greatest Referee of All Time."

Guess what? It's not him!

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-24-2008, 07:38 AM
We're waiting...IMpatiently!

Hawk

FeltForumFodder
06-25-2008, 07:23 AM
Well, seeing that Randy is fielding questions about the “Golden Sugar-Gordon Era” of “The Ring,” maybe he can answer some hardball questions. Randy is unquestionably a nice enough fellow in person, but this lovefest is a bit over the top in light of what is basically common knowledge in the boxing biz. So with all due respect and apologies to any friendships formed with CBZ's administrators…

Randy, the word around the business was that you and Bert ran TR the way Big Paulie ran the “Bamboo Lounge” in “Goodfellas.” In other words, you ran up the credit accounts of the business to your own benefits, and when nothing was left to charge, you guys basically busted the joint out.

What benefits?

It is said you guys used TR to advance yourselves and promote yourselves as boxing personalities, all at the expense of TR’s own interests. You flew, all expenses paid, all over the country (world?) sticking your mugs in front of every camera available. You wrote puff pieces to curry favor with managers, promoters, broadcasters, and fighters. Objectivity and journalistic integrity took a backseat to advancing yourselves as boxing characters, and ensuring cushier jobs for yourselves down the road.

You knowingly blew the expenses through the roof. Once TR was thoroughly bled out and you had other options to pursue, TR be damned.

I still see Bert now and then using his time-honored scam to get on camera to this day. He’ll take an upcoming big fight that the boxing media pretty is unanimous on that “so-and-so” will win. Hagler-Mugabi for instance. Bert will make sure he’s the only one to pick Mugabi.

So pre-fight, the mainstream sports media will track Bert down and interview him and throw his face on the tube. After all, he’s the only boxing writer picking Mugabi. Then, after the fight, when the Mugabi of the night predictably loses, they track down Bert again to make him eat crow. He throws his hands up in the air and shrugs it off with something like, “Hey, you can’t be right all the time.”

Then he has a smug grin on his face as if to say, “You idiots haven’t caught onto this act YET?” Meanwhile, for one intentionally bad boxing pick, he gets on TV twice, whereas the Pat Putnams, Phil Bergers, and all other legitimate observers, are never even heard from.

Clever? Yes. An ounce of journalistic credibility or integrity? Nope. But this represents the true character of the so-called “Golden Sugar-Gordon Era”.

I know boxing analysts, real “call ‘em as they see ‘em” type of guys, who got angry phone calls from managers whining “Why can’t you be more like Randy Gordon?”

First Randy came up with his “Randy’s Reach”, which has now lead to a “Randymobile”. :rolleyes: Can a Marvel feature film be far behind?

Randy shamelessly pumped up nearly every bum match he was hired to announce for his bosses. When Jim MacDonald knocked out Willie Edwards - admittedly a decent win but certainly not Louis-Schmeling - one writer compared Randy to the guy broadcasting the Hindenburg disaster on the radio, the way Randy screeched in a totally out-of-proportion context.

Oh, and this one was one of my favorites. August 22, 1985. Eddie Mustafa Muhammad vs. Elvis Parks. Parks comes out looking around the ring for a soft spot to land and a soft punch to put him there. EMM throws a punch in the vicinity of Parks’ personage. Parks hits the deck.

Any announcer worth anything would have been shouting for the Commission to hold up Parks’ purse and hold an inquiry. But there was our Randy gushing, “Ooooo, that Eddie can still punch!”

Could it be that Dick Young was just telling you not to be such a whore?

And is it true you called the mother of a magazine editor at her home before a review of your TV performances was printed, reminding her that you got her son started in the business? Which wasn’t even true… all in the hopes of fending off a bad review?

Prediction: Randy will whine to the site’s Administrator to get this whole post removed. He’ll probably pull it off too, and go on for another 30 years of puffery.

And it looks like Randy is still be making himself part of every story. Look at his account of the never-realized Ali-Frazier reunion. “I”, “me”, etc… I can’t even imagine what kind of “Tribute to Randy” that night would have become.

From all accounts, yeah, Stanley Weston was a cheapskate. But how many publications did he run into the ground? Let’s put that record up against the golden Sugar-Gordon record, shall we?

Everyone in the publishing business knows this kind of special interest magazine operates on a shoe-string budget. Maybe 50,000 magazines printed, maybe 25,000 sold. Probably less than $1 profit on each magazine. That’s not a lot of money considering printing, distribution, writers, photographers, misc. salaries, rent on office space, etc.

Its no secret that in the boxing mag business, the writers often have to watch the fights the same way the fans do; on TV. They’re not newspaper writers, they don’t have a deadline to hit for tomorrow’s newspaper. Coverage of tonight’s fight won’t be on the newsstands for another 10-12 weeks. Simply put, it is cheaper to have a longer printing lead time.

So the writers do not have to jet around the world and stay in hotels and incur additional heavy expenses. If the fight is not on TV, they can wait for a videotape to arrive via Fedex. They can telephone the fighters and trainers the next day for exclusive comments. All for the sake of economy and keeping the magazine afloat.

So why did you and Bert BOTH have to go to Tennessee for the Weaver-Tate fight? Ditto the Leonard-Duran fight? Was it just to be seen, to be noticed, and to advance yourselves? How many times did you two double the expenses needlessly like this? And you wonder why Herb was banging his head on the wall?

Weston pinched pennies even with nearly a dozen covers on the newsstands every month; 2 or 3 boxing covers, 3 or 4 wrestling covers, true detective pulp mags, old time western tales, and probably more pulp we’re not even aware of. With only 1 or 2 covers on the newsstands, you and Bert knew damned well you were overextending The Ring’s credit.

So the word is that you and Bert maxed out every bit of credit available, then split. Poor Herb, you and Bert left him at the helm of a flailing ship with the unenviable task of scuttling a once noble vessel on the shoals.

PS: Where is Herb now? I’d love to hear his side of this. Hawk5ins touched on this in his recounts of his phone conversations with Herb.

Herb didn’t run around advancing himself by running an iconic American publication into the ground, so what was left for him in the end? I know he was briefly in a Broadway production of “Requiem For A Heavyweight,” playing a boxing writer. But I don’t think he had the acting chops to make a career of it. :)

Herb, where are you? Let’s hear your side of this.

hawk5ins
06-25-2008, 08:00 AM
No sense in easing your way onto the site, just come out guns a blazing!

"Could it be that Dick Young was just telling you not to be such a whore?" Nice one. Class Act I see.

Man it took me at least a few months before I became abrasive! (Well, only abrasive to a select number of posters. Not accross the board. Right Guys? Right?)

Of course there is NO chance that you already post here under another poster name now is there?

Um...Welcome....aboard?

Hawk

FeltForumFodder
06-25-2008, 08:10 AM
Thanks for the welcome :D

No, I haven't been here before. I just surfed onto the site. A lot of good observations here by posters. I really like it.

But this thread isn't about me. So, back to Randy. :D

hawk5ins
06-25-2008, 08:23 AM
Back to Randy.

BTW, I did want to post this comment that GORDOOM, who runs this site, posted a short while back:

"Me & Randy have had SO many conversations where I've asked him every question I could think of... - & he patiently answered all of them over the course of quite a few years.

& he has submitted many articles for our magazine. Anyways, I felt no need to delve into his thread because he's already answered the great majority if not all, my questions for me.

BUT ... If somebody is trashing him.

Me no like that!

Just like I wouldn't tolerate it on Ron Lipton's, El Gato's, Frank Baltazar's, Hap Navarros' & other CBZ cornerstone threads that you just don't fuck with.

Outta RESPECT."

You might want to try and absorb the point he was making here about RESPECT and then apply it going forward.

Just a little friendly advice.

Hawk

Sharkey
06-25-2008, 08:30 AM
Hey Felt, got anything tangible about your claims about Sugar and Gordon at the Ring? Kinda just toss things out there and make it like it's fact and it's up to someone else to disprove it, rather than delivering proof.

Your post doesn't really read like a question or collection of questions but more a op-ed bio on Gordon. So, anything to your claim of Sugar and Gordon purposely using The Ring as some money-laundering operation?

Or is this Hearsay Week at CBZ?

Just asking.

FeltForumFodder
06-25-2008, 08:59 AM
:D

As may be inferred, I was connected to the business at one point. But like I said, the thread isn't "Q & A for FFF". Running interference for Randy by turning everything around to me isn't going to make the questions go away. Questions that were just common knowledge at the time.

Face it, if you're a photographer waiting in line for months for a $100 check, and you turn on your TV and see Randy and Bert jetting all over the place, you'd have questions. And at fights you'd hear similar commisseration from others in the business. Also consider; Bert, Randy, and Herb were not the only names on the masthead. There were other unnamed witnesses present. Personally, I'd love to hear Herb's account of those years.

If anyone is starstruck by Randy Gordon, I seriously suggest you adjust your settings. Like I said, he's a nice guy in person and a knowledgeable veteran observer, but c'mon, he is what he is.

As for the Holmes post, I made it quite clear it was my belief. The "I think"s and "it seems" were there for a reason. And I offered up a string of examples to back it up.

I guess I'm being a wet blanket on your lovefest, so just ignore me and carry on. :D

Randy Gordon
06-25-2008, 09:06 AM
Dear Misinformed FeltForumFodder,

You are an incredibly misinformed individual. Bert Sugar and I never ran The Ring into the ground or bankruptcy. It's funny, rather than spell out The Ring, you elected to shorten it to TR in your rambling, made-up, misinformed diatribe.

When Sugar bought The Ring in 1979, along with three business partners, one of whom was basketball legend Dave DeBusschere, the magazine was just about out of business from the previous administration's mis-handling of the magazine's affairs--and ratings.

In a very short time, we turned the magazine around and built sales up, both on the stands and in subscriptions. During our time there, funds were indeed mishandled, but it wasn't by us--it was by an in-house bookkeeper who was ripping off thousands of dollars and by DeBusschere himself. Yes, DeBusschere.

DeBusschere didn't steal from The Ring. But all Big Dave could do was play basketball. Other than that, he was 6'10" of DUMB. He cost The Ring a fortune by ending its relationship with Budweiser Beer, which advertised heavily on its pages. That alone cost The Ring over $200,000 a year.

And so what that Sugar and I went out of town to fights. We were supposed to go. It was part of the job. And when we did, we never flew first class, usually shared ONE room amongst three or even FOUR of us and took less than $100 apiece in expense money.

Yeh, I got overly excited for some fights I was announcing. Big deal. I still get excited while watching a fight. Arthur Abraham's victory over Edison Miranda the other night was just another fight I got excited about. Sorry for the excitement.

And as far as calling the mother of some magazine editor, that is total b.s., along with just about all your other mindless ramblings here.

And see, I didn't notify the administrator to remove your drivvle. I just sat here, read it, shook my head and said, "Some people are really sick individuals." You should either get a life or get professional help, maybe both. I'm sure there is a medication which can help you.

Oh, and this happens to be my thread. Lots of guys have threads here. If you don't like the guy, don't read it. If you don't like Howard Stern, don't listen to him. You don't like Sean Hannity, don't listen to him. You don't like me, don't read my thread.

Thanks for the smile you put on my face with some morning fiction.

Hoping you get the help you truly need,

-Randy G.

Sharkey
06-25-2008, 09:08 AM
To: Felt.

I was just asking for some information about where the questions come from, as in, knowledge base, your experience etc.

Otherwise, it's just tossing out stuff either overheard or that you want to believe... or your opinion couched as fact. This could hurt perception of your questions and make them out to be not worth getting behind... something I would guess would make your posting them in the first place a fruitless endeavor. That's all.

Calling 'listening to answers' and being happy to get some info from someone involved for decades in the sport a lovefest is odd. A lot of us don't have information to know what we ought to believe or not. So, I don't want the questions to go away, by any means. Maybe you shouldn't be ignored. So I asked some questions of you, seeing as how you're here.

hawk5ins
06-25-2008, 09:11 AM
see My previous post.

It's not a "love fest".

It's respect, that the board expects posters to have.

No one is running interference here, and no one is answering anthing on Randy's behalf. Randy's a ig boy and can and will speak for himself. Doesn't need any of us to do so. (and as a late edit, it looks like Randy already has.)

Your first post on this site you come off as a turd in My opinion. Whether you have legitimate "questions" or not.

There is a way to go about "introducing" your self to a board.

You have chosen your method. Don't be upset if "first impressions" (wink wink) are lasting here.

Hawk

FeltForumFodder
06-25-2008, 09:25 AM
And as far as calling the mother of some magazine editor, that is total b.s., along with just about all your other mindless ramblings here.


This I know for a fact. The guy in question left the business so I won't drag his name into it.

Everything else you posted is now reflected in the light of this denial.

:rolleyes:

hawk5ins
06-25-2008, 09:36 AM
For bringing anything tangible to the table Sharks!

It MUST be Hearsay week!

Hawk

Sharkey
06-25-2008, 09:52 AM
Pretty soon the PM's will begin flying I suppose. Anyway, I was actually just trying to get a handle on what was being asked? I thought for such known info it was pretty new to me. Oh well, no more about this.

Sharkey
06-25-2008, 12:47 PM
And I got a bridge to sell you..

bodyblow
06-25-2008, 12:57 PM
Ive got my own complaints about the Goldman/Sugar era of Ring but I dont really think it has much to do with Randy. I hated that Herb went around and started rewriting or simply making up the early lineages of titles that didnt even exist at the time for the era of the late 1890's when they did the Ring Record Book. Goldman snuck that stuff into the record book under Sugar's nose because Sugar isnt half the boxing historian he portrays himself to be. I agree that both men were somewhat piggy backing on boxing to make a name for themselves but I never really saw that from Randy. I always had/have a lot of respect for him and feel its a shame hes being attacked this way. Bash Goldman and Sugar all you want, but leave Randy out of it.

walshb
06-25-2008, 02:03 PM
Man, this thread has seriously taken off....

walshb
06-25-2008, 02:06 PM
And I have to be honest, our new poster I doubt was here before; he/she brings a whole
new approach to posting...

hawk5ins
06-25-2008, 02:44 PM
I just think it would be nice if when one does criticize, they have something to bring to the table, tangible, to back up what they say as opposed to "It has been said..", "Word around the business..." and "I Know Boxing analysts..."

Re Bert and Herb being fair game here......

Bert and Herb have proven their boxing history acumen enough times that I think thier knowledge of the game should be above being questioned as Historians.

That however does NOT mean I have to agree with everything they say. I certainly do NOT qualify as a Historian. But I don;t think that disqualifies me from having the right to disagree with their conclusions, opinions and lists.

Disagreeing with Bert Sugar does not mean I think he's an over rated Historian. It means I disagree with him.

Heck, as much as I respect Mr. Gordon here, I don't agree with everything he said or written. Heck, we are both on Opposite ends of the Spectrum as far as MMA goes. But becuase he enjoys something I simply don't care for at all, it doesn't mean his viewpoints are without value to me. Quite the opposite to be quite honest.

You Earn respect. Randy IMO has earned it from all of us. Whether or not we agree with him or not.

I'd say the same applies for Bert and Herb as well.

Hawk

hawk5ins
06-25-2008, 02:57 PM
Whihc is why the questions that Sharkey asked, are ones that would be helpful to have answered.

Then agian, if done so and you are on target with your perception here, it probably is veiwed as just a bitter individual who is looking for some verbal payback.

The way this was presented, in the manner it was done, certainly does lend to obvious questioning of the motives behind the poster who wrote this.

Doesn't come accross as very favorable either way.

There CLEARLY was a better way to try and make points and ask questions than the "I'm New (whihc still is up for debate) and I'm going to begin my stay with as prickly and abrasively a demeaner as I can portray."

Sure it get's you attention right off the bat. But it probably isn't the type of first impression that I would think anyone would want.

Acting like a prick right out of the gate, tells everyone you want to be known as a prick. Well that's fine. But be prepared to deal with that lasting perception.

Side note: I was responding to this post, but it has since been deleted:

06-25-2008, 02:47 PM #406
walshb
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Louth, Ireland Re: Q & A for Randy Gordon

Maybe it's simply an axe to grind, but it's been fun while it lasted. I doubt R

Hawk

walshb
06-25-2008, 03:02 PM
Yes; I posted that but lost it from a typo, damn French keyboards

hawk5ins
06-25-2008, 03:08 PM
Everyone didn't think I was talking to myself.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Hawk

walshb
06-25-2008, 03:09 PM
Isn't it me who should have said thank you:confused:

Randy Gordon
06-25-2008, 03:35 PM
I was editing a chapter of my book (about choosing Larry Hazzard as the ref for Whitaker-McGirt) when FFF jumped ugly on here. I'll finish the edit when I get home around 9:30 and see if I can get it up tonight.

Is anybody here looking forward to the upcoming Valuev-Chagaev fight?

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-25-2008, 03:44 PM
lost agian.

*sigh*

Hawk

tedsares
06-25-2008, 09:32 PM
Sometimes you can't see the forest through the trees which is to say that Ron Lipton was a very fine referee as well. The thing about Ron, aside from his fairness, was that he always was in great shape and was imposing enough that he could control every fight without verbal or physical intrusion. Yeah, Ron was one of my favorite refrees along with Stanley C. and Toby Gibson.

hawk5ins
06-26-2008, 07:41 AM
Getting back to your book that you are working on. Do you have any estimate on it's release or is it still in the "work in progress" stage?

Just curious. And Impatient!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-26-2008, 02:30 PM
To those of you who have inquired, my book is still a work in progress, though it is approximately 85% complete. I have an agent and he doesn't think we will have any trouble getting ourselves a publisher.

Also, get ready for a new reality show. It's called "Dispute." Instead of going in front of someone like "Judge Judy," the contestants climb in the ring with 16 or 18-ounce gloves and, well, attempt to settle their dispute.

The site for the new show and all the info that goes with it is: DisputeTV.com

What do you think?

The creator of the show, boxing promoter Ron Resnick, will be a guest on my show "Fight Club," on Sirius Radio, this Tuesday at 1:15. It'll be interesting to hear what he has to tell us about the newest entrant into the world of reality television.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-26-2008, 02:58 PM
I imagine finding one willing participant wanting to take out their grievances, physically, on the one who "wronged" him, should not be an issue.

Getting BOTH to agree to it, may be a challenge.

I imagine that the "fueds" would be pretty dicey to get both to want to jump in the ring and throw it down.

You know, Sharkey always rides me for over-rating Donald Curry. And I've about had it with those criticisms! "Sir Sharks! I challenge YOU, to a Duel."

Randy! You got yourself your first match!

Unless these are supposed to be celebrity feuds. In which case I don't qualify as I'm barely recognized in my own household. And I'm the only Male!

Good luck with this Randy. Sounds like "made for tv stuff" to me!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-26-2008, 03:30 PM
Hawk: The upcoming reality series, "Dispute," is not my invention or creation. That credit goes to boxing promoter Ron Resnick of ochester, NY. Now, if Mr. Resnick is looking for a host...

Hawk, if you went up to the IBHOF weekend instead of to the dance recital of your daughters, do you think you and Mrs. Hawk would have been going toe-to-toe?

Silly question. Of course you would have. And you would have looked like one BEATEN fighter at the end of the battle!

It's a good thing you went to the recital. But, start looking into next year's IBHOF Weekend. Maybe you--and a bunch of other CBZ'ers--will be able to make it up.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-26-2008, 03:48 PM
Mismatch Randy.

I'd have been pulverized.

Hawk

Phillyfan
06-26-2008, 07:08 PM
The creator of the show, boxing promoter Ron Resnick, will be a guest on my show "Fight Club," on Sirius Radio, this Tuesday at 1:15. It'll be interesting to hear what he has to tell us about the newest entrant into the world of reality television.

-Randy G.

ummm, not really.
I guess with actors threatening to strike, we'll get at least 6 months of reality shows. I barely have time to watch most of the fights as it is, why would anyone want to watch johnny appleseed vs joe q public?
A better show, in my opinion, would be to replay and old classic fight, say pryor/arguello, with both in the studio giving their thoughts leading up to the fight, during the fight, and after the fight. We could call it "Phillyfans Idea".
It would also circumvent the Screen actors guild, which is what they're trying to do anyway. Imagine Fullmer and Basilio in the studio talking about their fights. Could be the last opportunity.

Phillyfan
06-26-2008, 07:34 PM
but seriously, that is one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. why would anyone want to watch 2 people, who have absolutely no boxing experience, strap on 20 ounce gloves and head gear, and punch it out in a ring. They would be gassed within 30 seconds of throwing windmill punches. At least holyfield can still go 5 rounds. If I wanted to watch that junk, I'd buy the bum fights videos. 2 people fighting to settle a dispute, give me a break, it conjures up the term human cockfighting. What are they going to do, have tommy gallaher in one corner yelling at joe palloka "Give it all you got, there's no tomorrow!!".
Mr. Gordon, if you support this, I'm very surprised. leave the ring to the professionals. whats the next step, no holds barred to settle disputes, then on to the thunderdome where weapons are supplied? Do not drag boxing thru the mud and support this.

Randy Gordon
06-26-2008, 08:37 PM
Philly: I hear what you're saying and really appreciate your thoughts and feelings. It truly is not boxing as we know and love it. The boxing we know and love are a few of the names you mentioned and so many more just like them. As far as "Dispute" is concerned, it is not to even be compared to boxing. But will I watch it? Probably, as I watch just about everything else. I'm not going to boycott it just because you've got two out-of-shape shlubs huffing and puffing instead of Miguel Cotto-Antonio Margarito doing their thing. I wonder if Mr. Resnick's venture will even get off the ground.

By the way, if Sirius Radio and XM ever do merge, I will then be given a Classic Boxing Show, where I recreate the blow-by-blow of a classic fight, using as much existing audio of the fight as possible (pre-fight and post-fight interviews, etc.). Now, THAT I look forward to!

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
06-26-2008, 10:56 PM
No, I didn't forget Mills Lane. He was damn good. But ya' know what? I really don't think he was lenient enough. If a fighter bites his opponent--takes a chunk of his ear off--don't you think that would have merited being DQ'd? I think so. But Lane didn't DQ Mike Tyson after his first ear munch of Evander Holyfield. It took a second chomp before Lane threw Tyson out.

Hey, it takes balls to DQ a fighter in a fight, especially a televised bout. In the HBO-televised Riddick Bowe-Andrew Golota I bout, ref Wayne Kelly (another top-notch ref) gave Golota several warnings, yanking point after point for low blows. Finally, after Bowe went down from yet another South-of-the-Border shot, Kelly had seen enough and DQ'd Golota. And don't think for a moment the riot occured because of the DQ. That night, there was fuel in the Garden for a riot. Had Golota won a decision there would have been a riot. Had Golota won on a stoppage there would have been a riot. Had Bowe won a decision or by knockout there would have been a riot. A riot was in the making that night, with or without Golota being DQ'd.

Yes, Stanley Christodoulou was another favorite of mine, as was Mitch Halpern. So was our own Ron Lipton. In fact, I will always take pride that I was the one who approved Lipton's ref's license. For every fight, I was always a bit nervous for every fight. Hey, when you're commissioner, you want everything to go smoothly. When Lipton or Wayne Kelly were in that ring, my nervousness was gone.

For what it's worth, if I was Chairman of the NYSAC again, I would make major, sweeping changes in the officials. And, in my small, "starting rotation," two names would be most prominent: Wayne Kelly would be one. Ron Lipton would be the other.

-Randy G.

Ron Lipton
06-26-2008, 11:29 PM
Much appreicated Randy,

When I was up in that ring, I too felt good knowing you were there, trusted my judgment, backed me up and always complimented me on camera.

Thank you,

Ron

Phillyfan
06-26-2008, 11:47 PM
By the way, if Sirius Radio and XM ever do merge, I will then be given a Classic Boxing Show, where I recreate the blow-by-blow of a classic fight, using as much existing audio of the fight as possible (pre-fight and post-fight interviews, etc.). Now, THAT I look forward to!

-Randy G.
i would also look forward to it. but i think boxing needs a visual medium. Picture this: take a classic fight, say hagler/antuofermo. Show highlights of the fight. Bring both hagler and antuofermo in and get their thoughts, round by round. Use the latest technology to enhance the fight videos. Also, use digital technology to recreate parts of the fight, like they do in "dogfights". slow motion, computer enhanced imagery side by side with the real footage.
Remember the classic fights with marciano bringing in a guest and commenting on the fight. I loved those shows. Plus, its the only way future generation get to "know" rocky.
advantages
a. saves the thoughts of the fighters for future posterity
b. gives the fighters a small payday
c. its interesting

the footage allready exists

some fights off the top of my head
basilio/fullmer
bramble/mancini
fenech/nelson
chandler/murata
chandler/oscar muniz
tex cobb/shavers
holmes/cooney
and so on...

boxing has a lot of great fights and great personalities.

Phillyfan
06-27-2008, 12:00 AM
No, I didn't forget Mills Lane. He was damn good. But ya' know what? I really don't think he was lenient enough. If a fighter bites his opponent--takes a chunk of his ear off--don't you think that would have merited being DQ'd? I think so. But Lane didn't DQ Mike Tyson after his first ear munch of Evander Holyfield. It took a second chomp before Lane threw Tyson out.
-Randy G.

HUGE fight, holyfield wants to continue, and the commish gives him the wink wink. Yes, he should have stopped it after the first bite, but looking back, allowing it to continue might have been the best move mills made. The second ear bite clearly showed it was no coincidence and left no doubt tyson should have been disqualified. If mills had stopped it, there would be questions to this day if the stoppage was too soon. mills had too many good performances to be remember just by the ear bite incident.

Randy Gordon
06-27-2008, 10:26 AM
Philly: When we would have our yearly seminars, we would pose Questions and Answers to the officials (our judges and referees). Many times, an answer was not necessarily right or wrong. It was just an opinion, and we all have opinions.

"Do you score that round 10-8 or do you make it 10-7?"

"Should the fight have been stopped right there?"

"Who won that round?"

Opinions.

Let me ask you this: You be the ref for Evander Holyfield-Mike Tyson II. Do you DQ Mike Tyson AFTER his first ear chomp? I mean, Evander Holyfield is jumping up and down, holding his ear. You look at the ear. It's bleeding heavily. It's plain to see that a piece of his earlobe is missing. After "time out" has been called, you discover that Mike Tyson has caused the damage by biting off a piece of Holyfield's ear. The commissioner is up on the ring apron. You quickly confer with him. He tells you to make a decision. You know he'll back you up on whatever choice you make. Do you:

A) Do nothing but warn Tyson

B) Deduct one point from Tyson

C) Deduct two points from Tyson

D) Walk over to Tyson and disqualify him?

You said, "...there would be questions to this day that the stoppage was too soon," had the fight been stopped after the first bite. Too soon? Do you really believe that would have been too soon? So, because Mills Lane hesitated, Holyfield was forced to suffer through a second excrutiating tearing of his flesh from a fighter gone mad.

Would a DQ after the first bite really have been too early?

I'm pretty sure I know your answer. And I'm pretty sure there are a lot of folks who agree with you.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
06-27-2008, 01:53 PM
to, ahem, CHEW on re Holyfield Tyson II and Lane allowing the fight to continue after the first bite:

What happens if Tyson DIDN'T Bite Evander a second time? I've always felt that Tyson actually Bailed Out both Lane and Ratner AND Flip Homansky, for what could have turned into an even UGLIER conclusion, had the second bite not occured and the DQ happened.

So let's imagine that the fight continues and the blood simply doesn't stop flowing from Evanders ear. At some point, the amount of blood being spilled is going to create a cause for concern. If it gets to about the 5th or 6th round and it doesn't stop and Mills confers with Homansky, who two rounds earlier said the fight could go on, and a decision needs to be made to stop the bout, do we go to the scorecards? Is there a "retroactive" DQ placed on Tyson? Does Evander Lose on a TKO?

What if Mike goes on to legitimately wear down Holyfield who clearly is distracted by the "flesh wound", and eventually he stops Evander? Does Evander get to file a protest given the bite contributed to his being stopped?

What if the Arm Bar tactice that Mike used earlier in that third round, actually had some lingering effects on Evander as the bout wore on? His arm and his ear were injured due to BLATANT fouling by Tyson. Everyon forgets that Mike TRIED to break Evanders Arm, prior to Biting his ear off. I guess it only get's mentioned in the Botha fight, becuase there was no Ear biting to overshadow THAT lowlife tactic. The Fact that THAT, was not factored in when making a call after the 1st bite amazes me to this day.

I REALLY think this could have turned into a MUCH bigger nightmare had the second Bite by Tyson not have happened.

And I honestly beleive Lane, Ratner and Homansky owe Mike BIG time for coming through for each of them with the second Bite.

Anyone want to guess on where I stand on whether I think the fight should have been stopped after the 1st bite?

Hawk

walshb
06-27-2008, 02:03 PM
I've seen a lot of dodgy ref decisions; but Lane's one, ref Tyson bite, is one of the worst.

Sharkey
06-27-2008, 02:19 PM
The ref would not be robbing or cheating the fans if he DQ'd Mike immediately, Mike would have been... and did.

hawk5ins
06-27-2008, 02:42 PM
From Lane here, but I would have liked Ratner to have backed Mills' original decision on this. And I don't understand Homansky's thought process at all when Mills went over to him.

It doesn't seem to me that anyone was thinking beyond the extreme Immediate.

Hell, a shot to the nads gets a fighter a five minute timeout to recover. This situation, if discussion and second guessing was going to happen, TO ME merited Lane, Ratner and Homansky, taking some time to hash out the ramifications and potential dangers of letting this bout go on.

It all went way to Knee jerky to me, without ANY thought of what COULD and WOULD happen if they allowed this to go on. The only decision that would have been correct, if made in a split second without indepth discussion, would be an automatic DQ.

Again, Mike ended up bailing all three guys out of a bigger potential mess.

Hawk

Ron Lipton
06-27-2008, 03:07 PM
I would not have let Holyfield continue with a piece of ear missing, caused by an Intentional foul. I would have disqualified Mike on the spot and the Commission in it's authority would take care of Mike and his conduct, sending a message that this standard of behavior will not be tolerated in professional boxing.

I only DQ'd one fighter in my career. Charlie "White Lightning" Brown in his NY State title fight with Jake Rodriquez. Charlie was warned repeatedly to stop holding, and to stop maintaing clinches. He had come off of a long layoff fraught with drug problems, and had no energy to fight. He would throw one punch and immediately grab and hold, then refuse to break.

10-8
06-27-2008, 03:23 PM
No surprise that I agree with Ron.

Guys, lets clarify something here. This was not a mere bite. HE BIT OFF A PIECE OF HOLYFIELD'S ANATOMY! The bite was intentional and if that doesn't contitute an automatic DQ nothing does.

Watching the fight live I was contemplating on what Holyfield was going to do in retaliation because if it were me, Tyson would have been met with the mother of all elbow smashes square in the face at the very first opportunity. How Holyfield maintained his composure is beyond my comprehension. I only foresaw pandemonium happening when Mills let the fight resume which is in fact what did happen when Tyson bit him yet again.

Mills needed to realize that Tyson's actions were not those of a stable individual and in allowing the fight to continue put Holyfield at risk by allowing Tyson to bite him again.

I realize it's easy to Monday morning quarterback when we're not under the glare of the spotlights and an audience of millions, but if Mills could have one decision back I'm guessing it would be the one that allowed Tyson to continue.

tedsares
06-27-2008, 03:30 PM
I totally agree, Ron. Cannabolism warrants an inmmediate halt to matters. Woe, While Lightening My two friens Greg haugen and Joey Farrell (and another good friend Harry Arroyo) all sent him to dream land. Haugen iced him ASAP! Harry savaged him as only Harry could. Yeah, that brought back some quick memories.


As for Tyson, he was a serial fouler (Holyfield, Botha, Saverese, McBride and all the others he butted. Once you back up a bully, he has few options left and fouls represent one category.

hawk5ins
06-27-2008, 03:33 PM
And I'm not trying to pile on Mills here, who I still think was an excellent ref.

But does anyone else here think that:

A: Tyson's INTENTIONALLY trying to break Holyfield's arm should have factored into the initial decision from the first bite? Heck if a Single bite wasn't bad enough, how's about adding in that Mike ALSO tried to break Evanders arm!

B: Ratner SHOULD have supported Mills' initial decision? Let's remember here, Mills did NOT go about this decision alone. He was second guessed by the commsioner after Mills made his initial call. In the book, Mills actually credits and praises Marc Ratner for doing so. As Mills States: Marc's statement woke me up. My Better judgement took control and I said to myself, 'Wait a minute. It's time to get your brain in gear.'

That's when I saw Flip Homansky the ring doctor in the center of the ring I told him to take a look at Holyfield's ear and see how bad it was. Once Flip examined the wound, I asked him, can he fight? Flip said, He can fight. I repeated the question and Flip agian assured me that although the wound was cosmetically bad, Holyfield could fight.

C: What was Homansky thinking? Cosmetically bad? He had a Chunk taken out of his ear and that Ear was going to get HIT AGIAN, by PUNCHES!

Again, CAN Evander fight RIGHTNOW? Yes. But with the intent on HOW Evander suffered the wound, doesn't that action outweigh what Evander's Immediate physical condition was? Especially given that prior to that Tyson was trying to break his arm.

I commend Mills for wanting to take a step back an ensure he's making the right call. But Damn it, He should have had Ratner's support for his original call and Homansky's inability to NOT see beyond 3 seconds, is Unbeleivable to me.

A collective effort if you ask me.

Hawk

tedsares
06-27-2008, 03:57 PM
I do recall Holyfield using his other hand; namely, his head, in round two. That looked intentional to me, but I don't recall Lane deducting any point, nor do I recall any warning. Tyson had repeatedly complained about head butting in the first bout between the two. If you are going to go ape against anyone, it would be Holyfield who was--shall we say--a liberal interpreter of the rules. Maybe Lane factored that in. Just don't know and probably never will know.

This does not help much: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdFydag3YUM


This is what Tyson said:

“ Holyfield butted me in the first round and then he butted me again in the second round. As soon as he butted me I watched him. He looked right at me and came right at me. He kept on going down and coming up, then charged into me, and no one warned him. No one took any point from him. What am I supposed to do? This is my career; I can't continue getting butted like that. I've got children to raise and he keeps butting me, tryna get me, stopped on cuts I gotta retaliate"

hawk5ins
06-27-2008, 04:23 PM
" Tyson's reason for disregarding protocol and taking a bit out of Evander's ear in the third round was that he'd been headbutted by Holyfield earlier in the bout. Of Course, the headbutt wasn't intentional. In fact, you can expect that to happen whenever these two guys get together. Tyson's style is to lower his head and wade in; Evander's style is to stay on top of you and not give an inch. Therefore the clash of skulls was inevitible. In fact, I would have indicted Holyfield for stupidity if he tried to avoid bumping heads with Tyson. I know I've said this before, but it bears repeating: Holyfield pounded Tyson unmercifully through the first two rounds and wasn't fazed in the least by Tsyon's best shots. Bite or no bite, Evander was far and away the best fighter in the ring that night. Tyson's third round DQ saved his body a lot of wear and tear."

And this earlier in the book:

".....It was rough up close. So rough that Tyson recieved a nasty gash above his right eye from the impact. While Mike complained that the head butt was intentional, I saw it as brutal but perfectly legal Infighting."

I agree with Mills' take on the butts. Nothing was intentional here. Heck I recall in the first bout when Mike Rammed him head into Evander's and his knees buckled from the impact and he acted like HE was the one who was fouled.

It was a CLASH of Heads. NOT a deliberate Head butt. But even if it were deliberate, Trying to break his arm and Biting his ears? That's your retaliation? Hatton Tzsyu. Hatton got a low blow he didn't care for, he came back with a very deliberate one right back at Kostya. That's sending a message to "knock that shit off". THat's how men take care of this.

What Tyson did, were deliberate acts of cowardice that was also intended to get HIMSELF Dq'd and out of there.

I will say that while I had Evander winning both the first and the second round pretty cleanly, Lane's description of Tyson being pounded unmercifully, was a bit of hyperbole.

Hawk

mike casey
06-27-2008, 04:30 PM
Randy, just between thee and me, is it true that you and Bert Sugar were responsible for breaking up the Soviet Union in 1989?

Come on, you rogue, come clean!!

tedsares
06-27-2008, 04:55 PM
I totally disagree with Mills Lane's on the butts. Both of these guys were terrible butters. I could care less what Lane says. It's what I saw in person that counts, of course, I might be wrong. But being the age I am, I had the good fortune to be close to ringside at many of these high profile fights and I know what I know. Heck, some posters have already vilified poor Lane for errors in his book, Maybe this iust just another. In summary, I think Tyso was incented to do what he did. I also think what he did was wrong. If I'm butted, you are going to be butted. If you hit me low, I'll hit you low. If you hit me on the back of my head, I'll hit you on the back of your's. Biting off a chunck of ear is unheard of and warranted immediete DQ--and that's why I agree with Brother Lipton.

tedsares
06-27-2008, 04:58 PM
And oh yeah, I had Tyson winning the 3rd as did the jusges. I think he was actually coming on, but then he imploded. He got what he deserved. You take a guy like Golata. Hell, he is still aroiund and in the mix because he had more fortitude than a Tyson who simply cannot grow up and take accounatbility as a man. I am no fan of Tyson's.

tedsares
06-27-2008, 05:04 PM
Agian, excuse my typos but I have a retina issue that requires frequent dilations and I simply can't do any better.

mike casey
06-27-2008, 05:06 PM
Ted Sares was on the grassy knoll in '63 - take my word for it. I've been covering up for him ever since.

And I stick to my belief that my man John Lennon was shot by a cunningly disguised Paul McCartney.

hawk5ins
06-27-2008, 05:10 PM
It was questioned what Mills was factoring in when he made his decisions in the DQ and how the Clash of Heads played into this.

So I introduced Mills own words on this very point to get His view on the matter.

I happen to agree with his summation on this completely. In My opinion, there was nothing intentional with Holyfield's actions in either bout.

As far as Mills book goes, I have indeed pointed out factual errors in the book. But I have also stated that there is alot that is good about the book as well.

Like Mills, himself, the book is not perfect. And it does have some glaring errors in it. I have also clearly stated that there are some good parts to the book and it does not Suck and I would never tell anyone to NOT read it.

Hawk

tedsares
06-27-2008, 05:12 PM
Fair enough.

tedsares
06-27-2008, 05:27 PM
Ted Sares was on the grassy knoll in '63 - take my word for it. I've been covering up for him ever since.

And I stick to my belief that my man John Lennon was shot by a cunningly disguised Paul McCartney.


HAHAHAH

Hell, in 1963, I was just an innocent kid out of grad school with a wife I married in undergrad. By January - March, 1966, I was no longer innocent--believe me on that.

tedsares
06-27-2008, 05:30 PM
Is it just me or is this site ON FIRE RIGHT NOW?

10-8
06-27-2008, 05:35 PM
Ted this is the best boxing forum on the net bar none.

I no longer even visit any others, much less post.

hawk5ins
06-27-2008, 05:49 PM
I don't have time to be anywhere else!

HA!

Hawk

mike casey
06-27-2008, 05:59 PM
It's you fellas who make it that - don't forget it. You trade hard shots but always with a smile and good intentions. Now take a look at those other jungles - you'll get mauled to death if you so much as disagree with someone.

The CBZ currently ranks fourth on the most independent and far-ranging of the internet-ranking sites. Isn't that something? And Gor and Mike D have been doing this gig since '95, if memory serves correct.

So we lick the others on longevity, as well as quality.

Randy Gordon
06-27-2008, 06:56 PM
I've been at work all day, and I get home to a zillion posts. Wow! Touched a nerve with everyone here, apparently.

Ron, I have no doubt you would have sent Tyson to the showers after the first munch. I would have been right there back up your action. I'm sure any other commissioner would, too. As you know, it's not the commissioner's job to ref the fight...we leave that to you. We regulate. So, when a ref makes a judgement call, we've got to do nothing less than back him up.

I remember when you DQ'd "White Lightning." And you were so right to do so. His conditioning was far from tops, and he was getting gassed. All he could do was clinch, clinch and clinch some more. Your actions were totally justified.

I'm gonna' rifle through my tapes tonight and find a few fights reffed by Mills Lane. One that stands out in my mind is Mike Tyson-Bonecrusher Smith. I'll tell ya' why later.

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
06-27-2008, 06:59 PM
Mike: Yes, Bert Sugar indeed was a major force in the breakup of the Soviet Union. However, I had nothing to do with that. I was commissioner then and not allowed too far away from 270 Broadway in NYC.

-Randy G.

Phillyfan
06-27-2008, 11:14 PM
years ago, there was a movie where robert redford offered woody harrellson a million dollars if he could sleep with his wife, demi moore. All around the country, husbands were getting asked the same question by their wives, "would you want me to sleep with someone else for a million dollars?" This was a trap. Any answer to this question was wrong. I came up with the only answer possible, "I don't deal in what ifs".
its very easy to be an monday quarterback and say "I would have done ...". You have to imagine the moment. All I'm saying is I can live with Mills decision at that moment. Tysons ear biting was a total shock to everyone. I'm sure as a referee, you are prepared for a,b,c. When z happens, such as an ear bite or fan man, I can live with some confusion, even by the best of professionals. Mills decision to let the fight continue was not unforgivable under the circumstances, in my opinion.

tedsares
06-28-2008, 12:11 AM
Ted this is the best boxing forum on the net bar none.

I no longer even visit any others, much less post.

It certainly has the most informed posters and the 180 second delay thing is very good. As you might know, I write for another site that is maybe the only one that has no registration so anyone can get on it and start blasting away. Converesly, you can engage your posters instantly. It's brutal and savage--and it's clearly not for everyone because the posters can get very rough--but I love it because it is so rough. Kind of like if you can make it in NYC, you can make it anywhere.


I agree with you, however, that this site probablyy is the best one out there and I get a lot of great ideas for articles and other things from it. I truly value it. For the past two days, I upped my post count tremendously, but that was a catharsis, as I had a lot on my mind. It worked, so now I can go back into the wood work for a while, but I do love to post on here.


Cheers, :D :D :D

Randy Gordon
06-28-2008, 12:34 PM
You're right, Ted, in saying this site "is not for everyone, because the posters can get very rough." Whew! How true that is. But they're also a great group of individuals. It's kind of like being in a fraternity house with a bunch of different characters (some who clean up after themselves, some who don't...some who are argumentative about everything, some who are just laid back...).

But this recent topic of referees has really set everyone off.

Oh, and don't worry about typos and spelling mistakes. Mike DeLisa and GorDoom aren't grading your posts--just watching over them!

-Randy G.

tedsares
06-28-2008, 01:53 PM
You're right, Ted, in saying this site "is not for everyone, because the posters can get very rough." Whew! How true that is. But they're also a great group of individuals. It's kind of like being in a fraternity house with a bunch of different characters (some who clean up after themselves, some who don't...some who are argumentative about everything, some who are just laid back...).

But this recent topic of referees has really set everyone off.

Oh, and don't worry about typos and spelling mistakes. Mike DeLisa and GorDoom aren't grading your posts--just watching over them!

-Randy G.


Actually, I meant the site I write for which makes the posts on this site look tame. The guys on the other site play very rough and you have to have skin the thickness of a large wet reptile. Thw guys here are more focused on the issues which is the way it should be. Man, we get into SERIOUS Global warfare-Wales vs. US, Mexico vs. PR, Brazil vs, Argentina, South Korea vs. Japan, The Philipeenes vs. the rest of the world, and, of course, the UK vs. the US. And even Brooklyn vs. the rest of the world. :confused: :D :D

tedsares
06-28-2008, 01:56 PM
Any typos and spelling mistakes will be the result of my eye (retina) issues and nothing else.

FeltForumFodder
06-28-2008, 04:17 PM
In a very short time, we turned the magazine around and built sales up, both on the stands and in subscriptions.

Although the inner editorial staff may not leak out the truth, or even the printers, the distributors always do. The distributors are the companies that actually drive around and physically put the magazines on the newsstands. They're the blabbermouths of the industry who give out the genuine sales dirt.

So bumping up the monthly print order for a magazine by 50,000 copies may look like circulation is up. But when the distributors return 45,000 of those 50,0000 extra copies at the end of the month as "unsold," yeah, circulation may be up by 5,000 copies. Financially though, its a net loss.

People competent in the business would know this.

Small wonder Bert was throwing free magazines into boxes when people ordered stuff. You must have been buried in boxes of returns stacked all over the place.


During our time there, funds were indeed mishandled, but it wasn't by us--it was by an in-house bookkeeper who was ripping off thousands of dollars

Possible, it happened to Stanley Weston. The story was printed in Newsday that a woman who worked for him was caught stealing thousands of dollars, and was arrested.

The newspaper named her, a criminal complaint had been filed, she had been arrested, and charged by the District Attorney's Office.

Now since everyone is demanding details from me; who was the person at the Ring stealing money? Was a criminal complaint filed? Was the person arrested and charged? What were the results?

Oh, and Weston was getting stolen from, and still managed to sell the Ring and retire a wealthy man. Another point for him.


And so what that Sugar and I went out of town to fights. We were supposed to go. It was part of the job.

And how many other writers from other magazines did you TWO see there? I already explained why magazine writers do not usually fly to fights and how they have to work around it.

And they weren't even working for magazines that were going down a financial toilet. You and Bert were, and you both knew it.


we never flew first class, usually shared ONE room amongst three or even FOUR of us and took less than $100 apiece in expense money.

So now we're up to *FOUR* roundtrip plane fares. In the era before Reagan deregulated the airline industry as well. I remember those tickets being quite costly. Long before those $69each way airfares. Plus $400 in expense money?

You and I both know that little outing probably ate up TR's entire profits for that month. Leaving only 11 more issues to catch up financially. But oh yeah, there were other big fights coming up that you and Bert had to be at. :rolleyes:

Randy Gordon
06-28-2008, 05:56 PM
To Misinformed & misinforming FFF,

You really are a terrorist kind of individual...attacking behind a screen name and nobody knows who you are. You are so misinformed that it's sad.

I'm not going to rip your latest diatribe apart because there are really so many other great posts to read and digest. I will give you this, though:

Yes, we (at The Ring) sometimes went with as many as FOUR to a fight. But to Las Vegas, it was usually Bert and I (and I had a FLY FREE pass, as my dad worked for the airlines). And quite often, neither of us went. To Atlantic City fights and overnights, that's when several of us would pack in the car and go, usually piling in one room. I also said we went with less than $100 expense money. Most of the time, when we returned from the trip, we also gave the bookkeeper back the unused portion of our expense money. On many occasions, nearly all of the expense money was returned. I didn't need to eat meals at the hotel, as I had many friends who lived in Las Vegas and was constantly over their homes for meals.

Magazine returns? Of course there were returns. Every magazine has returns. But our sales back then were fantastic. On top of that, we put out as fine a boxing magazine as the boxing world has yet seen.

Yes, Stanley Weston retired a wealthy man. That's because he also put out a slew of wrestling magazines which were incredible money-makers. He even used the profits of one of those money-makers to give each of us our holiday bonus, which each of us appreciated. But Weston didn't revive The Ring after it spiraled into near-bankruptcy throughout the 1970's. Bert and I did. We took a near-dead magazine in late 1979 and brought it back to life. That's a fact.

Now, I'm bored. Spending any more time with a terrorist is ridiculous.

We were rolling along here on my thread with some great chatter, then you jumped in with your anti-Bert/Randy diatribe. If you were some photographer or writer who didn't get paid--not because we just didn't pay you, but because of a bookkeeping screwup--tell Nigel Collins, maybe he'll make good on your money.

Other than that, please keep off my thread.

-Randy G.

FeltForumFodder
06-28-2008, 06:14 PM
Deleted By Delisa

HE Grant
06-28-2008, 06:30 PM
FFF: a few thoughts ....

You may or may not have valid points but by attacking in this manner on this forum you are taking a personal agenda public in an unattractive way.

We live in a capitalistic society. There is no question that Bert Sugar is a shameless self-promoter, often enough to make you stomach sick, however he is good for boxing, a sport that is dying as we speak. He is one of the few writer/personalities that the mainstream viewer can recognize on sight... if he and Mr. Gordon utilized a situation and maximized it to their benefit you would be naive to single them out for such behavior... anyone that moves to the top of any super competitive field be it entertainment/journalism ect does so by working every angle possible ... you don't think they were making fortunes working there do you ? They have to be in the business of marketing themselves ... not always pretty but not by any means unique in any business ... since you appear to be a bright guy, I'm assuming there is more to this , the whole thing sounds like sour grapes to me ...

Ted: What site do you write for? Can it be mentioned? If not, send me a message ...

FeltForumFodder
06-28-2008, 06:43 PM
Deleted

HE Grant
06-28-2008, 06:49 PM
I'm definitely just a fan here ... I actually find the debate interesting since I grew up in the late 70's and 80's waiting with baited breath for each issue of Ring, World Boxing, International Boxing, Big Book of Boxing , ect to show up at the newstand ... however, I have enjoyed Randy's first hand accounts of his boxing career experiences and have come to enjoy the good natured manner in which he has shared them ... I guess from my perspective this is really a fan based site but that is just one guy's perspective ...I do have to say personal attacks aside it is facinating to learn more about how the business worked ...

HE Grant
06-28-2008, 07:20 PM
I'm definitely just a fan here ... I actually find the debate interesting since I grew up in the late 70's and 80's waiting with baited breath for each issue of Ring, World Boxing, International Boxing, Big Book of Boxing , ect to show up at the newstand ... however, I have enjoyed Randy's first hand accounts of his boxing career experiences and have come to enjoy the good natured manner in which he has shared them ... I guess from my perspective this is really a fan based site but that is just one guy's perspective ...I do have to say personal attacks aside it is facinating to learn more about how the business worked ......how did you come into such industry inside knowledge ? Is it possible to qualify insight or must you remain the Board's "Deep Throat" ?

Phillyfan
06-28-2008, 08:13 PM
allright randy, this should keep you busy for the weekend.
what are your thoughts on
taylor/chavez 1
fenech/nelson 1
briggs/foreman
tiberi/toney
ali/young?
:)

Randy Gordon
06-28-2008, 10:05 PM
Philly: I'll take each one of your choices, one by one. Let's start with the oldest of the bunch, Muhammad Ali vs Jimmy Young. How many times can you yawn during a fight without falling asleep? This one made Wladimir Klitschko-Sultan Ibragimov look like a heavyweight classic!

Although Ali won via a unanimous decision, his detractors asked, "Why, he hardly landed a meaningful punch on Jimmy Young. Well, neither did Jimmy land anything meaningful on Ali. In fact, the highlight of the "fight" was that Young continually put his upper body through the ropes and out over the ring apron, causing a break in whatever action there was.

I believe thinking that the referee, who I remember to be Tom Kelly, should have warned/taken points from Young for that maneuver, even DQ'ing him. He shoudl have handled it the same way referees handle a fighter who continually spits out his mouthpiece.

I'd love to hear Ron Lipton's take on this one.

-Randy G.

10-8
06-28-2008, 10:19 PM
Randy, I asked Ron about this a little while ago. Here was his take:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10-8
Ron,

I rewatched the Muhammad Ali Jimmy Young fight the other day and while it was a sloppy performance by an out of shape Ali I was wondering how as a referee you would have handled Jimmy's annoying and multiple "stick my head through the ropes so Ali won't hit me" tactics. To me it's almost an act of surrender, like taking a knee to avoid punishment, although Young was never hurt.

I always thought that Jimmy may have deserved a warning for the first time but what about each subsequent time. I think if the referee had have deducted a point after one warning Young would have stopped the annoying tactic.

What would you have done as the third man?


Reply: April 30, 76 I was there, and that was the time Rubin Carter was acused of beating Carlolyn Kelly, the head of his defense campaign while out on bail. Never forget that night in and out of the ring.

I would have warned Young with several hard warnings maybe 2-3, then deducted a point for failing to obey the referee's warnings. I would have said if you keep turning your back and hiding outside the ropes you will be disqualified. If it kept up he would have been DQ'd. Jimmy rest his soul did some job on Lyle and Foreman and was very clever in his fights with Norton and others. That hiding outside the ropes is not acceptable in a pro fight.

best,
Ron

Ron Lipton
06-28-2008, 10:25 PM
I guess me and my old boss are still on the same page on the way we believe a fight should be handled. I remember you asking me long ago 10-8, and Randy's and my answers turned out to be the same.

tedsares
06-29-2008, 12:22 AM
I guess me and my old boss are still on the same page on the way we believe a fight should be handled. I remember you asking me long ago 10-8, and Randy's and my answers turned out to be the same.


But a prime Jimmy was the quintessential cutie (like Vinny Curto) and knew every trick in the book. By stopping the action, he was able to assess the situation and plan a way to take away his opponent's game plan--which s what cuties do. Still, I agree about the warnings, though I loved to watch Jimmy do that because I knew why he was doing it.

tedsares
06-29-2008, 01:00 PM
It Was Not Hiding To Avoid Ali; It Was A Tactic To Take Ali Out Of His Game. And It Succeeded.

Randy Gordon
06-29-2008, 04:46 PM
To Ted and everyone else who thinks Jimmy Young's tactic was effective: All it succeeded in doing was stopping what little action there was in the fight. Here's Jimmy Young--he was called a "cutie" by many--in the ring against the world heavyweight champion for the world title, and what did he do? He stunk out the Capital Centre in Landover, MD, with his continual "head-outside-of-the-ropes" tactic. When I watched Sultan Ibragimov try NOT to win the title earlier this year at MSG against Wladimir Klitschko, my thoughts turned to Young trying NOT to beat Ali. I really wish the ref had been tougher with Young that night. It was worse than if he had done the "Jab & Grab"--holding on tighter than an octopus--throughout the fight.

Jimmy Young was such an outstanding boxer. Why did he elect to put on the stinker of his life on the night he may have been able to win the most coveted prize in sports?

-Randy G.

tedsares
06-29-2008, 08:35 PM
To Ted and everyone else who thinks Jimmy Young's tactic was effective: All it succeeded in doing was stopping what little action there was in the fight. Here's Jimmy Young--he was called a "cutie" by many--in the ring against the world heavyweight champion for the world title, and what did he do? He stunk out the Capital Centre in Landover, MD, with his continual "head-outside-of-the-ropes" tactic. When I watched Sultan Ibragimov try NOT to win the title earlier this year at MSG against Wladimir Klitschko, my thoughts turned to Young trying NOT to beat Ali. I really wish the ref had been tougher with Young that night. It was worse than if he had done the "Jab & Grab"--holding on tighter than an octopus--throughout the fight.

Jimmy Young was such an outstanding boxer. Why did he elect to put on the stinker of his life on the night he may have been able to win the most coveted prize in sports?

-Randy G.

Stink out the house! Heck, Randy, I thought he won the fight. If anyone stunk, it was Ali. He also came close to beating Norton and did beat Big George. I could not disagree with you more on this one with all due respect. :mad: :D

tedsares
06-29-2008, 08:45 PM
Unless I am mistaken, Jimmy was often referred to as "the man who gave Ali a boxing lesson." In my book, I pay homage to him for his fight with Ali where he uses a game plan of fighting effecivley from the outside. He hit Ali often while dodging Ali's counterpunches. His parying was somehting to behold.

I don't think Im the only fight historian have stated Jimmy took Ali out of his strategy and made him miss more often than did any other opponent. He had Ali cluless at times during that fight, and worked over his body in close.

When they announced the scores, I said at the time "you gotta be kidding me."

Fellow IBRO member Tracy Callis has this to say about Jimmy:

"Jimmy is most famous for his title bout against Muhammad Ali, a contest in which most boxing fans believe he won but received an unjust decision, and his victory over big George Foreman; Young defeated such men as Foreman, Ron Lyle, Richard Dunn, John L. Gardner, Jose Luis Garcia, Jose "King" Roman, "Memphis" Al Jones and Gordon Racette"

We will agree to disagree on this one, mate.

Mike DeLisa
06-29-2008, 09:15 PM
I have permanently banned FeltForumFodder.

Phillyfan
06-29-2008, 10:04 PM
I've defended Jimmy plenty on this site so I'm not going to jump in on this thread. I was just was curious on Randys take on some of the more controversial fights I've seen, especially taylor/chavez. That being said, I agree whole heartedly with tedsares. We've had a few threads on this and its not going to ever change the outcome. I would like to know why was young never warned. One warning to stop and he probably would have. Thats all I'm saying..

Mike DeLisa
06-30-2008, 12:23 AM
I havent watched the fight in some time, but didnt the referee begin counting on at least one occasion? In effect he called it a knockdown, thus losing the round for Young I would think on the cards.

In my opinion, sticking your head outside the ropes is the same as turing your back and the referee would be in his rights to end the fight by tko.

Phillyfan
06-30-2008, 12:46 AM
according to jimmy, he was never warned, thats straight from his mouth. In my opinion,he knew he was the better fighter that night and was smart enough to stop ducking thru the ropes if the referee had warned him. again, i don't want to rewrite history, it is what it is, just wanted Randys opinion.

walshb
06-30-2008, 04:31 AM
referee: Richard Steele | judge: Angel C. Tovar 142-143 | judge: Medardo Villalobos 139-143 | judge: Guy Jutras 141-142 ~
~ WBA featherweight title ~
1986 Fight of the Year - Ring Magazine.

Randy, can you tell me the nationality of the judges above please
They were the judges for the McGuigan-Cruz bout in '86

Thanks

Randy Gordon
06-30-2008, 05:59 AM
Walsh: Guy Jutras is from Canada; Medardo Villalobos is Panamanian and Angel C. Tovar is from Venezuela.

-Randy G.

10-8
06-30-2008, 10:36 AM
I'm not looking to re-open this can of worms which has been dealt with in other threads.

I do think it is important to refrain from generalizations such as "Ali couldn't fight as the aggressor, Ali couldn't cope with a jabber etc....Ali fought and beat plenty of jabbers and also beat guys moving forward and fighting as the aggressor. It wasn't his optimum style (nor Larry Holmes for that matter), but to suggest that Ali is always going to be troubled by that style is a generalization that I certainly don't agree with.

Ali at 230 lbs likely did next to no training for that fight and I would be very surprised if he even trained 2 weeks. There was a good outtake clip on Youtube from Champions Forever where Reggie Jackson is interviewing all the guys at a dinner table and Larry Holmes states that in the time he was around Ali, he usually only trained 2 weeks for a fight. Holmes then goes on to to say that Ali would be The Greatest undoubtedly if he had trained properly for fights.

Although Young was rated #3 when he fought Ali, his career on paper was shoddy and he was a powder-puff puncher. Ali treated the fight almost like an exhibition. Knowing Ali's terrible and lazy training habits, how geared and focused does anyone think Ali was for this fight, especially coming off Foreman and Frazier wins and looking ahead to a 3rd Norton fight?

This is not a knock on Young who I think wasa real crafty guy. You can make a case that he beat Norton, although you can also make a case that he lost to Foreman. Against the upper echelon guys he always failed to put an exclamation mark on his wins. He always left me scratching my head after rounds trying to decide who did enough to win. Jimmy had a real good run for a short period of time but back to back losses to a novice Ossie Ocasio often makes me question how good he really was.

tedsares
06-30-2008, 11:32 AM
I havent watched the fight in some time, but didnt the referee begin counting on at least one occasion? In effect he called it a knockdown, thus losing the round for Young I would think on the cards.

In my opinion, sticking your head outside the ropes is the same as turing your back and the referee would be in his rights to end the fight by tko.



I disagree. A fighter whoi turns his back on another fighter needs to have been hit before he is DQ. But I think you are correct that a count had begun. Just can't recall the entire fight.

hawk5ins
06-30-2008, 11:37 AM
Turning your back on your opponent and/or Sticking your head through the ropes, should illicit a STERN warning from the ref that if you do EITHER agian, you are going to get DQ'd.

Hawk

tedsares
06-30-2008, 11:37 AM
I'm not looking to re-open this can of worms which has been dealt with in other threads.

I do think it is important to refrain from generalizations such as "Ali couldn't fight as the aggressor, Ali couldn't cope with a jabber etc....Ali fought and beat plenty of jabbers and also beat guys moving forward and fighting as the aggressor. It wasn't his optimum style (nor Larry Holmes for that matter), but to suggest that Ali is always going to be troubled by that style is a generalization that I certainly don't agree with.

Ali at 230 lbs likely did next to no training for that fight and I would be very surprised if he even trained 2 weeks. There was a good outtake clip on Youtube from Champions Forever where Reggie Jackson is interviewing all the guys at a dinner table and Larry Holmes states that in the time he was around Ali, he usually only trained 2 weeks for a fight. Holmes then goes on to to say that Ali would be The Greatest undoubtedly if he had trained properly for fights.

Although Young was rated #3 when he fought Ali, his career on paper was shoddy and he was a powder-puff puncher. Ali treated the fight almost like an exhibition. Knowing Ali's terrible and lazy training habits, how geared and focused does anyone think Ali was for this fight, especially coming off Foreman and Frazier wins and looking ahead to a 3rd Norton fight?

This is not a knock on Young who I think wasa real crafty guy. You can make a case that he beat Norton, although you can also make a case that he lost to Foreman. Against the upper echelon guys he always failed to put an exclamation mark on his wins. He always left me scratching my head after rounds trying to decide who did enough to win. Jimmy had a real good run for a short period of time but back to back losses to a novice Ossie Ocasio often makes me question how good he really was.



Yoy say "...it is important to refrain from generalizations such as "Ali couldn't fight as the aggressor, Ali couldn't cope with a jabber etc...." and then say "...Ali at 230 lbs likely did next to no training for that fight and I would be very surprised if he even trained 2 weeks...." You can't have it both ways. IMO, Young was a cutie who, when he was good, was very good, and who-when he was not good- was just plain awful. He was what he was. Still, he came this close to being the only man ever to beat Ali, Foreman and Norton and that counts for something. I'm done with this exchange, but it was a fun one. :D

10-8
06-30-2008, 11:44 AM
How is that both ways? One statement compliments the other.

Ali was woefully out of shape and THAT is why he had difficulty with Young. NOT that Ali couldn't fight as the aggressor, couldn't fight a jabber etc....That's a generalization born from that fight. In actuality Ali was out of shape, overconfident, unfocused not to mention 34 years old and far past his peak which is why he looked less than stellar.

It was far less Young's style than Ali's condition. That is what I am saying.

tedsares
06-30-2008, 11:52 AM
Turning your back on your opponent and/or Sticking your head through the ropes, should illicit a STERN warning from the ref that if you do EITHER agian, you are going to get DQ'd.

Hawk


Unless, you are thumbed in the eye or otherwise fouled and turn your back, in which case "protect yoursef at all times" comes into play, but not necessarily a warning and certianly no DQ. A DQ should be the very last option taken by a referee. Two intentioanal head butts, more than two or three intentional low blows after a stern warning that the next will get you DQ'd. Jimmy's behavior did not come close to a DQ in that fight. He simply took Ali out of his game and, as 10-8 implied, was ill-prepared for what Young did.

WHen a fighter is clearly hit and turns his back and walks away, that is usually a sign he wants no more. It also is almost always a DQ. Heck, McCall had a nrevous breakdown in the ring before he was DQ'd.


I like to get Ron Lipton's take on this.

I said I was done, but I 'm not--for Jimmy's sake.

tedsares
06-30-2008, 11:56 AM
How is that both ways? One statement compliments the other.

Ali was woefully out of shape and THAT is why he had difficulty with Young. NOT that Ali couldn't fight as the aggressor, couldn't fight a jabber etc....That's a generalization born from that fight. In actuality Ali was out of shape, overconfident, unfocused not to mention 34 years old and far past his peak which is why he looked less than stellar.

It was far less Young's style than Ali's condition. That is what I am saying.


Point taken though I think both influenced the fight.

hawk5ins
06-30-2008, 12:03 PM
Yet the Ref would need to see the foul that caused the fighter to turn away. I can only think of Mugabi's loss to Duane Thomas here. This resulted in a TKO win for Thomas. The Ref never saw the thumb in this case.

I didn't like Young's tactic. And thought he should have been admonished much more severly than he was. I see the comparison in that when your opponent turns his back on you, you are not allowed to hit him or YOU are fouling by hitting your opponent in the back of the head.

You are purposefully (unless the aforementioned previous foul causes this) NOT allowing your opponent a target, through illegal means. Ducking your head through the ropes does the same thing.

BOTH tactics IMO deserve sever reprimands from the ref up to and including a DQ if it continued after the first warning.

BTW, I thought Ali looked HORRIBLE agianst Young. One of his worst performances ever. I also thought he won the bout by thismuch. Young didn't so much impress me in that fight, as much as Ali dissappointed me. Young not getting the duke, was NOT a robbery IMO. Especially when he HIMSELF could have done so much more to have sewn up the win.

Hawk

tedsares
06-30-2008, 12:04 PM
I have permanently banned FeltForumFodder.


I trust a stern warnings was given before the DQ! :confused: :D ;) ;) ;)

tedsares
06-30-2008, 12:08 PM
Yet the Ref would need to see the foul that caused the fighter to turn away. I can only think of Mugabi's loss to Duane Thomas here. This resulted in a TKO win for Thomas. The Ref never saw the thumb in this case.

I didn't like Young's tactic. And thought he should have been admonished much more severly than he was. I see the comparison in that when your opponent turns his back on you, you are not allowed to hit him or YOU are fouling by hitting your opponent in the back of the head.

You are purposefully (unless the aforementioned previous foul causes this) NOT allowing your opponent a target, through illegal means. Ducking your head through the ropes does the same thing.

BOTH tactics IMO deserve sever reprimands from the ref up to and including a DQ if it continued after the first warning.

BTW, I thought Ali looked HORRIBLE agianst Young. One of his worst performances ever. I also thought he won the bout by thismuch. Young didn't so much impress me in that fight, as much as Ali dissappointed me. Young not getting the duke, was NOT a robbery IMO. Especially when he HIMSELF could have done so much more to have sewn up the win.

Hawk

We are pretty much on the same page. Young indeed should have been warned, but if the referee is negilgent 9as he was), a fighter (Young) should take every advantage of the situation until and unless he is warned.

hawk5ins
06-30-2008, 12:20 PM
unless you get caught!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
06-30-2008, 02:33 PM
Go back to posts #464 & #465 to see our Ron Lipton's thoughts on Ali-Young. Yes, Ali was not in top shape for Young, either physically or mentally. He definitely underrated Young, much the way he underrated Leon Spinks two years later as Spinks took his title. Still, excessive spitting out of the mouthpiece or excessive clinching will warrant a deduction of points or a DQ. Leaning through the ropes certainly takes an opponent out of his fight plan. It also warrants action by the ref at some point.

But I do remember the firestorm of feelings this fight generated. It's doing it again!

-Randy G.

Ron Lipton
06-30-2008, 02:45 PM
Unless, you are thumbed in the eye or otherwise fouled and turn your back, in which case "protect yoursef at all times" comes into play, but not necessarily a warning and certianly no DQ. A DQ should be the very last option taken by a referee. Two intentioanal head butts, more than two or three intentional low blows after a stern warning that the next will get you DQ'd. Jimmy's behavior did not come close to a DQ in that fight. He simply took Ali out of his game and, as 10-8 implied, was ill-prepared for what Young did.

WHen a fighter is clearly hit and turns his back and walks away, that is usually a sign he wants no more. It also is almost always a DQ. Heck, McCall had a nrevous breakdown in the ring before he was DQ'd.


I like to get Ron Lipton's take on this.

I said I was done, but I 'm not--for Jimmy's sake.

Hi Ted,

Your loyalty, admiration for Jimmy Young and appreciation for his skills are respected and understood by me. I was at the fight ringside and I was of course rooting for Ali, who gave me a ticket and who I was with quite a bit.
I remember feeling exasperated by Jimmy's tactic of avoiding getting hit by going outside the ropes and had never seen anyone do that so many times.

The other fans around me were going beserk at the tactic and wanted to hang the referee in the public square for allowing Young to continue that ongoing course of conduct.

I truly would have warned him several times in mid ring for all to see to stop using that no man's land as a sanctuary, and my warnings would be akin to him intentionally spitting out his mouthpiece to gain a moment to clear his head. I NEVER would have allowed Diego Corrales to do what he did in the Castillo fight absolutelly NEVER, and cannot believe Tony Weeks went for it.

If Jimmy kept ducking through the ropes to deliberately avoid Ali's retaliatory responses, after several warnings including me going over to his corner to speak to him and his chief second, I would instruct the 3 judges to deduct points accordingly as the situaion degressed.

If he "Failed to heed the referee's warnings" which becomes a Major Foul, I would tolerate it as much as possible depending on his effort, and the specificis of each incident. In other words, it would have to be an absolute coup de gras of Ali raining on him and him once again hiding outside the ropes rather than use his boxing skills to outmanuever Ali, tie him up, spin him, block, slip, parry, take a knee whatever.

We as boxing fans all admire the punchers, the cuties, and all categories.

When you get so cute as to think you can out cute the serious boxing men in charge, or resort to this particular ruse of putting on Frodo's cloak or Harry Potter's cloak of invisibiltiy, OUTSIDE, the squared circle, then you are playing tag, ringalevio, touch football, hopscotch without stepping ont he cracks, and NOT fighting for the Heavyweight Championship of the World.

Ingemar Johnanson found that out with Ed Sanders in the Olympics while trying out his new track shoes, Charlie "White Lightning" Brown found that out with me while holding on to Jake "The Snake" Rodriquez like an anaconda, and refusing to let him go, and Jimmy Young fought a smart and cagey fight against Ali, until he resorted to adding that move into his whole pot pourrie bag of razzle dazzle.

Jumping outside the ropes, turning your back to avoid the gunfire?

Old School referee says, NO CAN DO.

tedsares
06-30-2008, 03:06 PM
Understood but if the Ref allows you to get away with it, you would be stupid not to do it. You do whatever it takes to win--I have aleways believed that and practiced it when I fought (PAL, CYO, CPD, etc.). I was a roughousing fighter until I was told to be otherwise. Whatever it takes. I forget who the ref was that night, might have been Tom Kelly, but whoever it was, he did not warn Jimmy that he would be DQ'd if he continued that.


Here is my final word on the subject (and what I stated in my book after having defined what a "cutie" was and after describing a few):

"Crafty Jimmy Young did a number on both Mohammed Ali and George Foreman
bymaking them fight his fight. Young Jimmy had a skill-set that could best be
described as being savvy and unorthodox and with it; he would outbox the boxers and outthink the punchers. He was savvy in that he was difficult to hit, had an educated left jab and straight right hand, and an excellent body attack. He was unorthodox when he bent away and down from an opponent and did other odd things in the ring, like put his head outside the ropes halting the action and giving him time to reassess matters. Jimmy Young had a very high ring IQ.

With this skill-set, he exploited Ali’s technical flaws like no other fighter, but
still lost a highly controversial decision. Ali had no strategic clue as to how to
fight Young. While Jimmy’s legacy is a sad one given the circumstances of his
personal life, he was nevertheless the quintessential slickster who could well have gone down in history as the only boxer to beat Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, and Ken Norton. His losses to Ali and Norton were that questionable."

HE Grant
06-30-2008, 03:07 PM
It is basically like calling a mid-round time out ... much as I liked Jimmy, that stuff severely tainted the otherwise fine performance he gave that night ...

tedsares
06-30-2008, 03:18 PM
No!!!!! The referee tainted it by allowing it. That's the point I'm trying to make here. If I am fighting someone and whacking him over the top in clinches or elbowing him as I come out of the clinches and am not being called on it, I'll continue until such time as I am called on it. It's up to the refree to control the action.

Maybe another way to frame this is to say Jimmy Young almost beat Ali because the refree that night lost control of the fight. I might buy that, but absoultely, positivley nothing else. I'll never forget the boos when that decisionwas announce, never, kind of like the sound the crowd made when the Toney-Tiberi decision was read.

tedsares
06-30-2008, 03:25 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is that Young was at his career best that night and had a long undefeated streak coming in and a decent one after. The included two wins over Ron Lyle. Ali was 50-2. If he was unprepared, he and his management own that. Young came in with a well thought out strategy and a game plan. Ali didn't. Ali was lucky to get the win.

Ron Lipton
06-30-2008, 03:51 PM
You are 100% right about one reality in boxing Ted, if the ref does not do anything, the fighters will try and get away with most anything if it starts gettig out of hand, that is why a real pro referee has got to be used for major title fights.

Look at what Gene Fullmer would do, Zivic, Al Bummy Davis, Wepner especially.

I will never understand why Tony Perez was allowed to referee anything after the Ali v Wepner fight. I still cannot believe my eyes as to what he allowed Chuck to do.

hawk5ins
06-30-2008, 03:57 PM
I have already agreed with you that a fighter should bend the rules as far as a ref would allow him to do so.

But this said, what Young did with the ropes was a violation of the rules and meritted a warning, then a points deduction and then a DQ if necessary.

He got away with what the ref allowed him to get away with.

Now is it simply semantics as to WHO tainted the performance, the Ref or Young himself?

I say this because, would Young have performed as well as he did agianst Ali WITHOUT using that tactic of as HE-Grant describes it: a Midrounds Time out?

By the same token, if he tried this tactic and a Ref does not allow him to do so, whether it results in Point deductions or a DQ or he simply discouraged Young from doing so, would Young have been as successful if a Ref ENFORCED the Rules?

The difference in the previous 2 statements is Young controlling his actions and the REF controlling his actions. But either way, it was the actual tactic, that comes into question. That is where the "taint" comes on the performance. The Illegal tactic that was repeatedly used.

An analogy here: Muhammad Ali get's a TON of Grief for the excessive holding he did in the second Ali Frazier fight. It can be argued, that he would NOT have been successful in that fight, if Ali had been admonished of those tactics he used throughout the fight. Tactics that helped him win. But tactics that had they NOT been used, whether by CHOICE (Ali's) or FORCE (Perez's), might have altered the outcome of the fight.

I'm willing to give Ali the benefit of the doubt that he could have altered his approach and still won the fight, based on the merit he had built up through the years.

Unfortunately for Jimmy, he doesn't merit that same benefit of the doubt. Fair or not.

Hawk

Enswell
06-30-2008, 05:03 PM
I havent watched the fight in some time, but didnt the referee begin counting on at least one occasion? In effect he called it a knockdown, thus losing the round for Young I would think on the cards..


You're right. It happened at the end of the 12th. Kelly got up to the count of three, I think. But it seems to have gone unnoticed. I was just watching this on youtube, and Cossell made no mention of it, and I'm not sure that the judges figured it in to the scoring. That's some memory you've got!

hawk5ins
06-30-2008, 05:50 PM
It is Clear, that the Ref begins a count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuwGPnieMfU&feature=related

The theme of when Young pulls this tactic everytime Ali begins landing in earnest with Young against the ropes.

THis is the first time I've viewed this in awhile, and I have to be honest, I become more and more 'irritated' with Young everytime I view this.

Take advantage of what the ref will allow you to get away with, but it doesn't mean I have to be impressed with what you are getting away with.

Hawk

HE Grant
06-30-2008, 05:57 PM
Keep in mind that Ali was basically lazy through out his second reign ... he was fat and out of shape for Wepner, Lyle, Young, Evangelista, Cooperman and even worse as he got older ... he was only in shape for Frazier 3 and Norton 3 .. my point is that considering how long he waited to regain the title, it is surprising how poorly he trained to defend it ... he was in poor shape for Young and that had a huge impact on the fight ... there is not much if anything Jimmy Young could do that an inshape Ali, even in his early/mid thirties could not do better ...

10-8
06-30-2008, 06:01 PM
Here's something to consider.

If Wladamir Klitschko in his next fight decides to repeatedly stick his head through the ropes to avoid getting hit, how many posters on CBZ will:

A) Concede that Klitschko is a defensive, crafty, ring-smart cutie,

or

B) Verbally carve Klitschko a new rectal cavity with a dull, rusty pearing knife (figuratively speaking of course).

I will also add that having watched the 12th and 13th round, where Young purposely sticks his head through the ropes on 3 seperate occasions, Jimmy, to me, looks less like a smart and crafty fighter and more like a tired amateurish fighter looking to get a break from getting punched while trapped on the ropes.

Mike DeLisa
06-30-2008, 07:31 PM
I just watched youtube -- the referee there did the right thing as i recalled, calling a knockdown on Young and starting to count.

It is a bullshit move, and is very different violation of the rules than say Carlos Palomino's uppercut with elbow.

I stand by my view from 30 some odd years ago -- if I was the referee I would have stopped the bout in Ali's favor when Young turned his back (and I was rooting for Young). Nor would I give Young "credit" for this move as it is a pussy move. Of course, that is my worthless opinion -- if another viewer enjoys that and thought it clever, so be it.

HE Grant
06-30-2008, 08:05 PM
I'm afraid to raise issue with you or Gor ... management here has been wacking guys lately like Jimmy from Goodfellas ... :p

tedsares
06-30-2008, 08:36 PM
I just watched youtube -- the referee there did the right thing as i recalled, calling a knockdown on Young and starting to count.

It is a bullshit move, and is very different violation of the rules than say Carlos Palomino's uppercut with elbow.

I stand by my view from 30 some odd years ago -- if I was the referee I would have stopped the bout in Ali's favor when Young turned his back (and I was rooting for Young). Nor would I give Young "credit" for this move as it is a pussy move. Of course, that is my worthless opinion -- if another viewer enjoys that and thought it clever, so be it.


Wow, let the pile-on begin, eh. I'll bypass your "Pussy" and bullshit" comments except to say that I'll stand by my comment that I thought it was clever move. That's my point of view. It might be wrong because it is a subjective thing, but it's my opinion. I respect yours; I expect respect in return.

tedsares
06-30-2008, 08:43 PM
I'm afraid to raise issue with you or Gor ... management here has been wacking guys lately like Jimmy from Goodfellas ... :p


Let's have a meet in private near LaGuradia. We can figure something out.:mad: :D