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tedsares
06-30-2008, 09:16 PM
Fellow posters, I'll be off the thread for a period of time as I now have to begin the pain stakingly difficult task of reviewing my editor's suggestions. This is both time consuming and ego shattering. See you later and thanks for the interesting exchanges. But it's worth the effort in the end because only a fool would do his or her own editing (and proof reading).

Randy Gordon
06-30-2008, 09:36 PM
We're all wishing you nothing but the best with your book, Ted. Before you know it, it'll be edited, finished, completed and printed. I can hardly wait to buy my (autographed) copy.

-Randy G.

tedsares
06-30-2008, 10:09 PM
We're all wishing you nothing but the best with your book, Ted. Before you know it, it'll be edited, finished, completed and printed. I can hardly wait to buy my (autographed) copy.

-Randy G.


Count on it.

Phillyfan
06-30-2008, 10:11 PM
buy? didn't ted say something about free copies to everyone on the board. autographed of course

Ron Lipton
06-30-2008, 10:48 PM
Does anyone know how I can get a variety of great DVD footage I have of me training fighters, TV interviews, training footage, onto You Tube. How is this done, tell the old Neanderthal. I also have some nice stuff with me, Angelo Dundee, Carlos Ortiz, Carter, Randy Gordon and others on film which I would like to get up on a link onto Cyberboxingzone. How should this be done?

thanks,
Ron

Randy Gordon
06-30-2008, 11:10 PM
Yeh, you're asking the right one. I know how to do these things:

1. Turn on the computer
2. Go online
3. Get onto the CBZ
4. Get e-mail
5. Get into Microsoft Word
6. Type documents

Anything more than that, Ron, you are one Neanderthal talking to another Neanderthal. Or possibly Fred Flintstone to Barry Rubble. Hey, how about this?

Wil/maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

-Randy G.

Phillyfan
06-30-2008, 11:28 PM
allright randy, this should keep you busy for the weekend.
what are your thoughts on
taylor/chavez 1
fenech/nelson 1
briggs/foreman
tiberi/toney
ali/young?
:)


ok, that takes care of ali/young. next:)

Mike DeLisa
07-01-2008, 12:16 AM
Ted --

My comments were directed at my opinion of Young, not your comments about him!

I respect your opinions, of course. But I wanted to be emphatic about my view. I can even understand how someone -- ok here i do mean you! -- would consider the move clever. I was trying to explain why I didnt.

CF -- Foreman pushing Frazier and then clocking him

CF -- Lennox holding Grant behind the head and dumping him with an uppercut.

CF -- Marvin Hagler wearing a cup up to his tits.

CF -- Leonard flurrying with 30 seconds left in a round.

CF -- Duran thumping to the nuts when the referee isnt looking.

CF -- Ali holding behind the head.

CF -- Sugar ray laying in punches to the kidney against that German guy

CF -- Lou Duva training his fighters to throw the last punch of the round when you hear the bell.

CF -- Holmes flicking with an open glove

Legal? Illegal? A clever move? A pussy-ass move? Ring generalship?

That is what makes talking about boxing enjoyable -- parsing through all this stuff.


Good luck with the edits -- for me that last stage of a book is like plucking out pieces of my liver.

Mike

Ron Lipton
07-01-2008, 12:49 AM
Great examples, truly on the money.

Phillyfan
07-01-2008, 01:13 AM
pazienza, punching for 12-15 seconds after hearing the 10 second warning.

tedsares
07-01-2008, 10:28 AM
Ted --

My comments were directed at my opinion of Young, not your comments about him!

I respect your opinions, of course. But I wanted to be emphatic about my view. I can even understand how someone -- ok here i do mean you! -- would consider the move clever. I was trying to explain why I didnt.

CF -- Foreman pushing Frazier and then clocking him

CF -- Lennox holding Grant behind the head and dumping him with an uppercut.

CF -- Marvin Hagler wearing a cup up to his tits.

CF -- Leonard flurrying with 30 seconds left in a round.

CF -- Duran thumping to the nuts when the referee isnt looking.

CF -- Ali holding behind the head.

CF -- Sugar ray laying in punches to the kidney against that German guy

CF -- Lou Duva training his fighters to throw the last punch of the round when you hear the bell.

CF -- Holmes flicking with an open glove

Legal? Illegal? A clever move? A pussy-ass move? Ring generalship?

That is what makes talking about boxing enjoyable -- parsing through all this stuff.


Good luck with the edits -- for me that last stage of a book is like plucking out pieces of my liver.

Mike

Thanks, Mike. And thanks for the explanation. LOL

Randy Gordon
07-01-2008, 11:33 AM
Mike, I loved those examples. In nearly every one of them, I had a clear visual in my head of said fighter doing exactly the move you spelled out.

In each of those examples, its up to the ref to either ignore those moves or do something about them.

Another two that come to mind are Michael Spinks throwing right uppercuts and following through with his elbow and Mike Tyson using his head, elbows and shoulders as weapons (see Rd. 1 of his fight against James "Bonecrusher" Smith, which so intimidated Smith that he became "Bonehugger" the rest of the fight!)

Obviously, there are plenty more.

-Randy G.

Mike DeLisa
07-01-2008, 02:05 PM
The uppercut and elbow combo is one old-time move I mentioned earlier with respect to palomino -- but Spinks, Marciano, etc all used it also.

BTW -- perhaps the CLEANEST fighter ever: Joe Frazier -- despite his style, Joe virtually never hit low, or used elbows or head etc.

Here is a great article we reprinted by none other than Fritzie Zivic -- "You gotta fight dirty!"

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/zivic-dirty.pdf

hawk5ins
07-01-2008, 02:15 PM
That has always flabbergasted me, becuase I don't get what it does other than being showy (and annoying) is the grabbing of the top rope with one hand and then either shooting out a Jab or a straight left or right.

Vinnie Pazienza CONSTANTLY did this and I was always happy when he was warned or chastised, but I never understood what it actually gained a fighter other than being a showoff tactic.

I never thought of it as a "pussy" move. Rather a "dickhead" move.

An open question to all here: what the hell does this tactic achieve other than annoyance?

Hawk

bodyblow
07-01-2008, 05:39 PM
Smith became Bonehugger more from a couple of powerful Tyson punches that landed than Tyson fighting dirty. Saying Bonecrusher was intimidated by tyson fighting dirty takes a lot of credit away from both guys IMO.

hawk5ins
07-02-2008, 04:16 PM
Re the holding the rope with one hand tactic?

This one always had me curious.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
07-02-2008, 04:43 PM
I don't remember who told me, but it was quite awhile ago in a New York City gym that some fighter told me that holding the top rope with one hand while jabbing allows the offensive fighter to then pull back and out of range quickly with the aid of a right hand that tugs on the top rope.

Make any sense?

I think we all should try the move the next time we enter the ring!

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
07-02-2008, 04:50 PM
I kept trying to figure out if it was a leverage advantage, but that didn't come Close to making sense to me as it would seem like you LOSE leverage.

So I chalked it up to being showy (though I was happy Vinnie was always warned for the move.

I didn't think about the defensive aspect of this, but purely the offensive part.

That I can wrap my arms around a bit better.

Thanks Randy.

Hawk

10-8
07-02-2008, 05:54 PM
Ali was warned for doing it against Holmes while Leonard was also warned for doing it against Hagler.

PD99
07-02-2008, 10:51 PM
What about when Shavers big right hand sent Ali skittling back in rd 2. Ali clearly grabbed hold of the top rope strand to right himself. Technically, that could've been ruled as a KD, correct?

Austin
07-03-2008, 04:26 PM
Hi Randy,

Do you think anything will be done to overturn the ruling by Joe Cortez in the Soto/Lorenzo fight? Rulings like this travesty are killing boxing. Calling Lorenzo a champ, even by the standards of the alphabet soup bodies is a joke!!

Austin

Randy Gordon
07-03-2008, 09:34 PM
Austin: Although it is quite easy to find fault with Joe Cortez' DQ of Humberto Soto last week, refereeing, like judging, is individual and subjective. In any fight, different referees will take different courses of action. There is no telling what another referee would have done in that case. Would he have stopped the fight earlier and awarded Soto a TKO victory? Would he have merely deducted a point from Soto and not DQ'd him? There is no way to know those answers. The commission will just have to call Cortez in and hear what his thought process was in making the call that he did. I find it highly unlikely that the Nevada Commission will do anything other than back Cortez up on his call. That's why the referee is there: to make those judgemental and spontaneous calls. If the commission is needed to overrule the ref, why not have the commission jump in every time there's a controversial call?

My feeling is, that while we may not like or agree with Cortez' call, we will just have to live with it.

Rematch, anyone?

-Randy G.

tedsares
07-03-2008, 10:55 PM
Austin: Although it is quite easy to find fault with Joe Cortez' DQ of Humberto Soto last week, refereeing, like judging, is individual and subjective. In any fight, different referees will take different courses of action. There is no telling what another referee would have done in that case. Would he have stopped the fight earlier and awarded Soto a TKO victory? Would he have merely deducted a point from Soto and not DQ'd him? There is no way to know those answers. The commission will just have to call Cortez in and hear what his thought process was in making the call that he did. I find it highly unlikely that the Nevada Commission will do anything other than back Cortez up on his call. That's why the referee is there: to make those judgemental and spontaneous calls. If the commission is needed to overrule the ref, why not have the commission jump in every time there's a controversial call?

My feeling is, that while we may not like or agree with Cortez' call, we will just have to live with it.

Rematch, anyone?

-Randy G.


Good call, Randy

greek1237
07-05-2008, 02:44 PM
I don't remember who told me, but it was quite awhile ago in a New York City gym that some fighter told me that holding the top rope with one hand while jabbing allows the offensive fighter to then pull back and out of range quickly with the aid of a right hand that tugs on the top rope.

Make any sense?

I think we all should try the move the next time we enter the ring!

-Randy G.

When you try it, rember the open thumb gloves, not sure the tactic will work with the thumbless gloves.

Was watching Johnson vs Flynn, and notice you can do a lot more inside work and cliching and bended the arms with the gloves of that era, Johnson was able to hold onto Flynn's arms and twist them.

Sharkey
07-07-2008, 10:09 AM
I never liked the bouncing off the ropes on purpose trick. Catapulting to deliver a punch, Bugs Bunny v. Crusher style. Renaldo Snipes for one did this and I thought it was retarded and illegal but I may be wrong on both.

tedsares
07-07-2008, 10:16 AM
Not sure it's illegal. If you can gain sling-shot type leverage from such a shot (which you can), use it if the opportunity presents itself. Whatever it takes.

hawk5ins
07-15-2008, 11:17 AM
Re Boxing Illustrated, the Ring's sister publication in the early 80's.

You guys had nearly half of that particular magazine devoted to the Amateurs. Along with what we saw regularly on Tv for amateur boxing, this was an EXCELLENT guide to knowing and learning about the US Amateurs as well as several International Amateur stars.

What an educational tool that was that is SO sorely missed today.

Of Course I always wanted to know exactly Tyronne Biggs officially became Tyrell Biggs. That one always cracked me up when I saw the Budweiser Amatuer National rankings!

I always found it fascinating when you would see a Meldrick Taylor ranked at Bantam as a Amateur and then to see him progress as a pro and win titles at 140 and 147.

And then I'd wonder what ever became of Warren Thompson or a Mark Mahone at heavyweight. Or looking back and seeing Mark Breland, Micheal Nunn and Frank Tate, all being nationally ranked at welterweight in 1982 and then realize, that ONLY Breland, would stay at that weight as a pro!

Gosh I miss when boxing magazines were boxing magazines!

Hawk

10-8
07-15-2008, 11:50 AM
Randy, I was watching Leonard-Lalonde yesterday and noted that you were doing the commentary. Intersesting was your scoring of round 4 which featured a KD, yet you scored only 10-9 for Lalonde (you gave your justification on the broadcast.)

I'm curious about your thoughts, opinions and reflections on Leonard-Hearns II, your scoring etc....thanx.

doomeddisciple
07-21-2008, 02:56 AM
The uppercut and elbow combo is one old-time move I mentioned earlier with respect to palomino -- but Spinks, Marciano, etc all used it also.

BTW -- perhaps the CLEANEST fighter ever: Joe Frazier -- despite his style, Joe virtually never hit low, or used elbows or head etc.

Here is a great article we reprinted by none other than Fritzie Zivic -- "You gotta fight dirty!"

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/zivic-dirty.pdf

Thank you Mike for this link. This part alone has made my afternoon

"Look at the three best chmpions of our day - Rocky Marciano, who was one of the best after-the-bell punchers I ever saw; "cute" Archie Moore; and alley fighter Sandy Saddler. To all of them the book is something you could clout a guy with if you had it ready."

Hilarious.

I'd also be curious to know which fighter walked around with Harry Greb's teeth marks in his shoulder where the chunk Greb bit out used to be was.

I'm going to download it and put the third page the right way up - My neck and eyes are hurting and people in the office think I'm looking at a centrefold or something...

=================

G'day Mr Gordon,

I watched all the MMA yesterday thanks to the wonders of modern PCs. I ask you this question in fun.

Fedor Vs Wladimir - Boxing rules - I STILL like Fedor's aggression and confidence even if he's only as tall as Wlad's reach - He had no trouble touching the 6'8" Sylvia last night.

And Randy - Might I also add as a life long metal head and watching Affliction in a house full of metal heads - We were all disgusted by the performance and particulalry the vocals of Dave Mustaine in Megedeth last night!

I also think the Affliction people need to look at replicating Prides approach to the ring ropes and perhaps getting their ref's to be more officious when going through the ropes - There could be some serious injuries with that set up as is.

Overall it was a pretty positive card for a first event the feldgling orgainisation - But the biggest laughs in our lounge room were resevered when we saw Don Trump sitting next to Jenna Jameson on one side and Don Johnson on the other.

I've got the same crew of MMA fans coming to my place on Sunday arvo for the Cotto Margarito fight to try and show them some striking defense!!!!

Cheers mate,
Josh

Randy Gordon
07-22-2008, 10:11 AM
Josh,
As a boxing/MMA guy, I watch everything I can and attend everything I can. I was extremely impressed with Fedor Emelianenko's performance the other night. What I didn't get was Megadeth. I suppose they were there because of the age of the target audience MMA is reaching out to.
However, I'm glad they were on: I used the time to get up, stretch my legs, walk the dog, go to the bathroom, make a few calls then head to the kitchen for dessert. When I walked back in, they were still performing, or making noise, whatever it is they do!
Have fun this weekend with your pals watching Miguel Cotto-Antonio Margarito. It should be nothing short of exciting.
And we KNOW Megadeth will not be performing.

-Randy G.

doomeddisciple
07-23-2008, 01:37 AM
Randy,

Me too - I pretty much get everything I can, including K-1 and Muay Thai and even the Muay Thai Contender series with a couple of Aussies in it is entertaining at the moment.

I'm sure my friends and my suggestions for replacing Megedeth would provide an equal amount of leg stretching time for you - But we are in wholehearted agreement.

What did you think of how Affliction dealt with the ring set up? (I noticed Zab Judah took one of his boys and was up front there)

I thought the ropes make the risk of an injury very apparent. I can't remember how Pride had their bottom rope set up - But obviously they haven't quite got the balance right in regards to physical strength of the rope nor in the way the referee's handled the situation - I think the Pride ref's precedent of sometimes physically dragging the fighters back into the middle would be called for.

Babaloo was the only fighter that dealt with it well, placing a headlock/abridged guilotine choke on each time he was forced through them, but to me that and megedeth were the only real detractors to a pretty strong card that my MMA friends all siad they'd buy again.

I would have loved to been a fly on the wall at Dana Whites house for both when things were running poorly and to his reaction to Fedor taking out Sylvia in 36 seconds.

Rock on mate,

Josh

EDIT PS: Mate - Any advance on getting your radio show in Podcast format or something yet? I subscribe to the ESPN boxing one and listen to them on my way to work - I'd prefer a meatier version!

Randy Gordon
07-24-2008, 12:12 AM
N.Y. Gov. David Patterson will have a major announcement at a press conference in Harlem, NY, on Friday at 11:00 p.m. The Governor will nominate a new Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission, replacing Ron Scott Stevens. I will put up a story on the new commissioner tomorrow (Thursday) night.

I will be at Gov. Patterson's press conference with tape recorder in hand.

-Randy G.

PeteLeo
07-24-2008, 01:19 AM
So, it's going to be Melvina, right? PeteLeo.

Ron Lipton
07-24-2008, 08:34 AM
It is amazing what Stevens has gotten away with despite his symbiotic relationships with other promoters. It is incredible that he is not called out much worse for his choice of officials, blackballing and worse. Is his little hatchet man the total non boxing guy Hugo "The Spin" Spindola still going to be hiding in the woodwork calling the shots as Pataki's boy?

Randy Gordon
07-24-2008, 02:03 PM
Ron: Hugo "The Hatchet Man" Spindola is no longer with the NYSAC. He has actually been out of there for several months. The story is he had a major falling out with RSS and said "See ya'!" For now, RSS will stay on as a commissioner, but not as the Chairman & not with the fulltime salary...and that makes me wonder if he'll want to stay on at all. He gave Commissioner Lathan no respect, and now that she's in charge, is he going to be able to deal with the fact that he once again has to go out and get a job, then show up at ringside and not be the boss? Quite frankly, I don't see him sticking around any longer.

-Randy G.

Ron Lipton
07-24-2008, 08:37 PM
Thanks Randy.

I will be seeing RSS and Spindola in Fed court along with a few others to expose what they did to me under oath. Melvina judged a few of my fights I believe and her husband the Doc always seemed like a nice man.

Randy Gordon
07-24-2008, 10:24 PM
It was early 1990 and I was in a revamping and rebuilding mode as Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission. I was re-writing the antiquated NYSAC rulebook, updating our licensing procedures, strengthening our medical requirements and meticulously reviewing tapes and scorecards of our NYSAC judges and referees.

On this particular evening, I was trying out a trio of prospective boxing judges. The group was comprised of two men and a woman. They had to score each round of each fight, then write a brief synopsis on the scorecard why they scored the round the way they did. After several evenings at ringside like this, it was apparent to me and my right-hand man, Rich Hering, that only one of them would make the cut. That person was the woman. She became the fourth female judge I licensed in New York, joining Barbara Perez, Carol Castellano and Eva Shain.

That first tryout included a funny incident. The prospective female judge was sitting next to me, scoring the fights, then handing her cards to Rich Hering. I had told her to pay attention to each match and ignore anything else which might be going on around her, such as a fight in the stands. Sitting behind me was my wife, Roni. Admiring the woman’s footwear, Roni said, “Nice shoes.” There was no reply. Thinking she was not heard, Roni again said “Nice shoes.” Again, no reply. Roni then leaned forward and got closer to the woman. I had thought I heard my wife saying something, but my mind was on the fights, not on footwear.

“I love your shoes!” my wife called out. Still, there was no answer from the apprentice judge.

That’s when I turned around, finally realizing who Roni was attempting to talk to.

“Honey, don’t bother her,” I said. “She’s being tested…trying out as a judge.”

Roni winced and apologetically said, “Sorry.”

After the fight card ended, the woman said to Roni, “I heard you, but knew I couldn’t turn around talk about my shoes…the commissioner would have had my head.” The three of us had a good laugh. Then the two of them talked about shoes.

Over the next five years that I remained as Chairman, this woman was more than one of the two dozen or so judges who held licenses in New York--she became one of my very best judges.

Her name is Melvina Lathan. She went on to judge hundreds of fight cards and officiate close to 100 title bouts. She turned in scores for such outstanding fighters as Evander Holyfield, Wladimir and Vitali Klitschko, Floyd Mayweather, Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Chad Dawson, Israel Vazquez, Joe Calzaghe, Laila Ali, Paulie Malignaggi, Jermain Taylor, Miguel Cotto, Zab Judah and Virgil Hill. Then, last year, Gov. Eliot Spitzer brought Ms. Lathan aboard as one of the three commissioners who comprise the NYSAC. Sent packing was useless the political hack Jerry Becker, who was nominated by former Gov. George “Whacky” Pataki. It was Pataki who single-handedly did all he could to destroy the NYSAC with all his politically-motivated appointments.

At 11:00 on Friday morning, New York Gov. David Patterson will hold a press conference at the P.A.L. in Harlem, New York, to announce one of the finest executive decisions he has made in his short time as the state’s top administrator: At the press conference he will thank New York State Athletic Commission Chairman, Ron Scott Stevens, for his five years of public service, keep him as one of the three commissioners, then replace him as Chairman with Melvina Lathan.

Incoming-Chairman Lathan, who is African-American, doesn’t see color or race. She sees people. Expect that she will have detractors, but only in the beginning, because she is a woman in what is still primarily a man’s sport. However, before too long, those detractors will become believers. They will be won over by the beautiful, classy, educated, charismatic, well-spoken, the-dame-knows-her-boxing Lathan.

Yes, Commissioner Lathan knows and loves boxing. She has conducted training seminars for judges in several states, as well as for the IBF and WBO. Even on nights when she is not judging, the mother of three sons and one daughter and grandmother of 11 can often be seen at ringside with her husband, Dr. William Lathan, a longtime physician with the New York State Athletic Commission. Last year, she was voted into the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame and is the only female recipient of the “Rocky Marciano Official’s Award,” presented by the American Association for the Improvement of Boxing (AAIB). She was also a consultant in the construction, design and development of the Muhammad Ali Center in Louisville, Kentucky. New York’s new boxing boss is also an accomplished photographer, artist and costume designer. She has created costumes for NewYork theatre as well as for MTV video productions.

In addition to her love of boxing, Commissioner Lathan loves Mixed Martial Arts, which is currently not licensed or regulated in New York State. Commissioner Stevens doesn’t care for MMA, and refused to push for its regulation in New York. Under Lathan’s leadership, expect New York--one of only 15 states not yet regulating the fast-growing sport of Mixed Martial Arts--to enter the “Age of MMA” sometime in 2009.

A new era in New York boxing is about to begin--the Melvina Lathan Era.

Oh, and when you see her at ringside, tell her you love her shoes. I know Roni will.
###

Ron Lipton
07-24-2008, 10:36 PM
It is a shame they are keeping Stevens on to do more damage than he already has, I believe the Gov's office does not have the full picture of what he has done behind the scenes yet.

I also hope she does not continue the practice of using the worst of NJ's referees and the worst of NY's but uses the best instead.

Who are the Commissioners of the NYSAC now?

Randy Gordon
07-24-2008, 11:46 PM
Ron: The NYSAC is comprised of three commissioners. One of them is the fulltime, salaried employee, the Chairman. He, or, in this case, she, runs the day-to-day operation of the commission. When I was there, the other two commissioners were Rose Trentman and Herb Washington. The other two commissioners and per-diem employees, making around $150 for every fight card and commission meeting they attend. Each of them has a fulltime job outside of their commission work. The third commissioner, who is soon to be confirmed by the Senate, is a former New York court judge, who also happens to be the author of "Carlito's Way." He is soon-to-be-retired and will receive a pension. As for Ron Scott Stevens, the guess is, now that he is out of his $100,000-a-year job, will be forced to quickly look for work. As a state worker who served "at the pleasure of the Governor," he is not eligible to collect unemployment (as he will soon find out, much to his dismay). He didn't see eye-to-eye with Melvina, and my gut tells me he won't be able to take 1) not being the boss and 2) Seeing Melvina sit in his office and 3) not making money and will bolt the position within a few months.

Ah, the changing of the guard. It's wonderful for some, and painful for others.
Been there, done that!

-Randy G.

Ron Lipton
07-25-2008, 01:09 PM
Besides Melvina, what are the names of the other Commissiones under Gov Patterson now, if you know, and who is the Executive Director?
Who actually makes the assignments now under Melvina L.?

Ron Lipton
07-25-2008, 01:42 PM
Just want to refine the question Randy, I believe that Commissioner will be Edwin Torres, Melvina Lathan as Chairman, and Stevens remaining temporarily?
Who is the other Commissioner and who would be slated to replace Stevens in your opinion. Then lastly who is her Executive Dirrector and will she or the Exec make the appointments for offiicals?

Randy Gordon
07-25-2008, 11:15 PM
Ron: The members of the three-panel New York State Athletic Commission are: Melvina Lathan, Chairman/Commissioner (fulltime salary & job); Ron Scott Stevens, Commissioner (per diem); and Edwin Torres, Commissioner (per diem).

For now, Ron Scott Stevens is staying aboard as a voting commissioner. However, he must be totally devastated at the loss of his high-paying position, and my guess is he will pack it in by the end of the year, give or take a few months.

I am not sure Chairman Lathan will have an Executive Director. She may revamp the commission entirely and immediately or do it piece by piece over many months. If I had to guess, she will take the latter route, looking at each person to see what their job is and how well they perform it.

As far as officials, I know Chairman Lathan and Commissioner Stevens disagree in many areas. However, the call is now Lathan's--not Steven's--on which officials get called. She may have a Deputy Commissioner such as Bob Mangi make those calls now with her approval, but I know you will see a difference, beginning with the very next show.

Will it be politics as usual, however? Only time will tell.

-Randy G.

Ron Lipton
07-25-2008, 11:34 PM
Thank you Randy.

Ron

tedsares
07-29-2008, 12:19 AM
[

Randy Gordon
08-02-2008, 08:12 AM
A bunch of posts ago, I was asked my opinion of around a half-dozen fights from around 15-20 years ago. One of those fights was the James Toney-Dave Tiberi MIDDLEWEIGHT fight. Yes, fat, lazy 'ol James Toney was once a middleweight--a damn good middleweight.

The fight, which took place on February 8, 1992, in Atlantic City, was for Toney's IBF Middleweight Title. This was the sixth title defense for "Lights Out" since he won the vacant IBF crown 20 months earlier.

Toney, 23, from the Detroit area, entered the fight with a record of 22-0-2 with 16 knockouts. He was also generally considered to be the best "Pound-for-pound" fighter on the planet.

Tiberi, 25, out of New Castle, Delaware, brought a 22-2-3 record into the fight, along with the reputation of being a smooth boxer and a non-puncher (he had but seven knockouts, although he had kayoed his previous two opponents coming into the Toney bout).

Fought at the Trump Taj Mahal, a boisterous crowd was on hand for the fight, made up of mainly Dave Tiberi supporters who had made the short drive up from Delaware. The referee was Robert Palmer, a licensed New Jersey official. The judges were Frank Brunette, Frank Garza and William Lerch. Brunette, from New Jersey, was also licensed by the NJSACB. Lerch, from Chicago, and Garza, from Toney's state of Michigan, were not licensed by New Jersey. They were licensed in their home states, however, and were merely appointed by New Jersey boxing commissioner Larry Hazzard to judge the fight.

Aside from Tiberi being penalized one point in the sixth round for a low blow, the fight was rather uneventful. Toney applied slow pressure while Tiberi boxed and moved behind a snappy jab. After 12 rounds, the scorecards were read: Frank Brunette had Tiberi comfortably ahead, 117-111. Lerch, the Chicago official, had Toney ahead, 115-112. Then there was the Michigan judge, Frank Garza. Would he score it in favor of the Michigan fighter? Yes, he did. He had it the same as Lerch: 115-112. The crowd erupted with boos and chants of "Bullshit! Bullshit!"

Naturally, Toney thought he had done enough to win. Tiberi, through tears, said he was convinced he had done more than enough to hand Toney his first loss. My scorecard showed Tiberi ahead 115-113 (114-113 with the point deduction).

Among those watching on television was U.S. Senator William Roth of Delaware, Tiberi's home state. Sen. Roth then called for an investigation into boxing. In August of that year, the investigation and hearings took place in Washington, D.C. I--who was then Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission--was among the witnesses called by the investigatory panel. I was asked questions such as "Explain your licensing process for judges," "What is the requirement for licensing judges?" and "Do you have seminars for officials?"

The hearings only showed that the two officials I named earlier were not licensed in New Jersey. No foul play was ever found and the split decision for Toney stood. Toney went on to eat his way out of the middleweight, super middleweight, light heavyweight and even cruiserweight divisions.

Tiberi, totally digusted, walked away from boxing. He never returned.

Randy Gordon
08-03-2008, 09:29 PM
It seems that at least once a month, a boxing match takes place which has a controversial ending: The referee stopped it too quickly. The referee didn't stop it soon enough. The commissioner was forced to stop the fight. A cornerman intervened to stop the fight. A fighter quits, and as soon as the fight is stopped, he argues vehemently to say that's not what he meant.

Well, a match which probably will go down in history as having the most controversial ending of all time was another of the fights I was asked about by CBZ'er Phillyfan a bunch of posts back: the first meeting between Julio Cesar Chavez and Meldrick Taylor.

The date was March 17, 1990. The Hilton Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada, was the host of the fight, which was billed, appropriately, "Thunder and Lightning."

The fight, scheduled for 12 rounds, would unify the IBF (Taylor) and WBC (Chavez) 140-pound titles. As matchups go, it didn't get better than this.

The fast-fisted Taylor was the 1984 Olympic featherweight gold medalist. He had made his professional debut soon after the L.A. Olympics, coming from a U.S. squad which featured Mark Breland, Pernell Whitaker, Tyrell Biggs and Evander Holyfield. Taylor's incredible hand speed was compared to U.S. gold-medal Olympians of the past, Sugar Ray Leonard and Howard Davis Jr.

Going into the fight against Chavez, the 23-year-old Taylor took a 24-0-1 record (the draw coming against the fast-handed Davis to whom he was constantly compared), along with 14 knockouts. He had won the IBF Light Welterweight title 18 months earlier with a 12th-round stoppage of champion Buddy McGirt.

Chavez was already a Mexican legend. At 27, he had won the WBC Super Featherweight Title, the WBC/WBA Lightweight Title and the WBC Super Lightweight Title. He was unbeaten in an astounding 68 bouts, with 22 opponents failing to go the distance. He had a body attack which was in a league of its own and he was continuing to improve with every outing.

The judges were all from Nevada: Chuck Giampa, Jerry Roth and Dave Moretti. The referee was Richard Steele.

From the opening bell, the two unbeaten champions tore into each other: Taylor landing crisp, clean combinations, both to the head and body, Chavez driving powerful hooks and right hands both up and down. Both fought like undefeated champions. Both looked like men who refused to relinquish neither their championship or the zero on the right side of their won-lost ledger.

The rounds flew by like the rounds from a Rocky movie, only with more action. Both were landing solid shots. Both were taking solid shots. By the start of the 12th and final round, both were cut, bruised and swollen. But both were still throwing fast and lethal punches.

With a little under 30 seconds to go in the fight, Taylor ripped a left hook to Chavez' side. Taylor followed with a left hook to the head. Chavez staggered and the mainly-pro-Chavez crowd screamed, as if to keep their hero on his feet. It worked. With his back to the ropes, Chavez dipped to his left, then fired a left uppercut which found Taylor's chin. Chavez then launched a right cross thrown with everything inside of him towards Taylor's chin. It found its mark. Down went Taylor. You could not hear yourself think, the crowd was that collectively loud.

Taylor struggled to his feet at the count of five. There were perhaps seven seconds remaining in the fight. Steele continued counting, giving Taylor the mandatory eight-count. Then, Steele leaned close to Taylor and asked him a question. Taylor didn't answer. Then he slowly blinked. Still no answer. Steele shot another question at him. Taylor turned his head to the right without answering. Steele ended the fight. Then the bell rang.

Many in the crowd thought the fight was heading to the scorecards. Had that been the case, a split decision would have been read off. Chuck Giampa had it 105-104 for Chavez. Dave Moretti had it 107-102 for Taylor. Jerry Roth had it 108-102 for Taylor. But it never got that far. As bedlam broke loose in the ring, Steele tried to make it clear that he had stopped the fight. He went to Mark Ratner's predecessor, Chuck Minker, and told him he had stopped the fight, awarding it to Chavez. The time was 2:58 of the 12th and final round.

You can imagine Lou Duva and the rest of the Taylor camp. Watching on TV, I was sure a riot was about to happen. Thankfully, security quickly and professionally put out "fires" as they erupted from all s.ides of the ring.

When it was all said and done, ref Steele said it is not his job to be concerned with how much time is on the clock. He said he was watching Taylor closely, and when he asked question to Taylor, and received nothing more than a blink and a turn of the head away from him, he had no choice but to stop the fight. Later, Taylor said he was turning because he saw his cornerman, Lou Duva, running towards him. Duva said he was doing so because he thought he heard the bell, which, in actuality, rang two seconds later.

Whether or not he should have survived to the final beel and savored the victory, the beating he took in the fight ruined Taylor. Nevada commission doctor Flip Homansky said Taylor was urinating "pure blood," and had taken a severe beating to the face, head and body.

Taylor continued to fight for 12 more years, and although he even went on to win the WBA welterweight title, his record over those 12 years was a lack- luster 14-7. One of those losses was on an eighth-round TKO to Chavez in a rematch four-and-one-half years later.

Today, at the tender age of 41, Taylor is a hollow shell of the incredible athlete he used to be, a man rapidly heading into the abyss of dementia pugilistica.

Controversial stoppages will always be a part of boxing, but it's doubtful any will ever be as controversial as the first meeting between Julio Cesar Chavez and Meldrick Taylor.

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
08-05-2008, 09:48 PM
I was just informed today that both Joe Calzaghe and Roy Jones will be in-studio with me on my show, "Fight Club," on Sirius Radio, on Friday, Aug. 15. I am really looking forward to interviewing both of them. Their fight at MSG is still three months away and already they are beginning the hype for it.

Will Jones be too big for Calzaghe? Will Jones have anything left? Will Calzaghe be too slick for the fading Jones? Will what's left of Jones' quickness keep Calzaghe from throwing his usual vast amount of punches?

How many of you think this is gonna' be a Jones victory? How about a Calzaghe victory?

I'm anxious to hear the sales pitch each guy makes regarding this fight.

I wish this fight could have been made 10 years ago!

-Randy G

doomeddisciple
08-05-2008, 10:22 PM
Randy -

Can I subscribe to Sirius from Australia so I can hear your show?

Can you provide a link to anymore info about your show?

Kind regards,
Josh

Phillyfan
08-05-2008, 11:03 PM
Randy, you re-capped both fights, but didn't give us your opinion.
I would like to know if anyone ever sat down with brunette and asked how the hell he could have scored it so lopsided for toney. 9 times out of 10, toney easily defeats tibiri, but i was there that night. Toney was severly dehydrated and threw up immediatly after the fight. tibiri had his way with toney almost every round. I was with tibiris crowd and they were very quiet during the whole fight, occasionally rallying for a "lights out " chant. They saw the same thing i did, Tibiri won that night.

Randy Gordon
08-06-2008, 03:50 PM
I got so caught up in writing about both the James Toney-Dave Tiberi and Julio Cesar Chavez-Meldrick Taylor fights that I neglected to give you my personal feelings about each.

As for the Toney-Tiberi fight, I believe Tiberi should have had his hand r.aised in victory that night--not Toney. You're confusing me--you said you wonder if anybody has ever sat down with judge Frank Brunette and asked how he could have scored it so lopsided for Toney. If my old memory serves correct, I beleive Brunette, a solid, world-class judge, had it lopsided all right, but lopsided for Tiberi: 117-111 (that's 9-3 in rounds). It was the other two judges, Frank Garza and William Lerch, who had Toney winning by scores of 115-112.

As I mentioned in the article, Lerch was from Chicago, Garza from Detroit. Where did Toney

Randy Gordon
08-06-2008, 03:50 PM
I got so caught up in writing about both the James Toney-Dave Tiberi and Julio Cesar Chavez-Meldrick Taylor fights that I neglected to give you my personal feelings about each.

As for the Toney-Tiberi fight, I believe Tiberi should have had his hand r.aised in victory that night--not Toney. You're confusing me--you said you wonder if anybody has ever sat down with judge Frank Brunette and asked how he could have scored it so lopsided for Toney. If my old memory serves correct, I beleive Brunette, a solid, world-class judge, had it lopsided all right, but lopsided for Tiberi: 117-111 (that's 9-3 in rounds). It was the other two judges, Frank Garza and William Lerch, who had Toney winning by scores of 115-112.

As I mentioned in the article, Lerch was from Chicago, Garza from Detroit. Where did Toney

Randy Gordon
08-06-2008, 04:21 PM
The board swallowed the rest of my response...I am headed to the gym...will have to re-write the rest of my post when I get back.

Computers! Sometimes I miss my old Remington!

-Randy G.

Phillyfan
08-06-2008, 05:51 PM
sorry, i made a couple of mistakes on my post. i was with Toneys crowd for the tiberi fight and toneys crowd was very quiet. Brunette had the correct score, were the other 2 judges questioned? I remember there was a stink that jacquie kallen, toneys manager at the time was schmoozing with the judges and may have influenced the results.

Mike DeLisa
08-06-2008, 06:25 PM
Randy -- don't let the board get the better of you..

I always write my responses in notepad -- or word, then cut and paste to the board.

I learned to do that after losing many posts!

In fact one time I was wri

Randy Gordon
08-06-2008, 06:55 PM
Randy -- don't let the board get the better of you..

I always write my responses in notepad -- or word, then cut and paste to the board.

I learned to do that after losing many posts!

In fact one time I was wri


LMAO...I've now learned. This old dog's been taught a new trick.

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
08-06-2008, 10:42 PM
Philly: Here's a continuation of my earlier post, including my first two paragraphs. I realize you have since "un-confused" me. Anyway, here goes:
________________________________________
I got so caught up in writing about both the James Toney-Dave Tiberi and Julio Cesar Chavez-Meldrick Taylor fights that I neglected to give you my personal feelings about each.

As for the Toney-Tiberi fight, I believe Tiberi should have had his hand raised in victory that night--not Toney. You're confusing me--you said you wonder if anybody has ever sat down with judge Frank Brunette and asked how he could have scored it so lopsided for Toney. If my old memory serves correct, I beleive Brunette, a solid, world-class judge, had it lopsided all right, but lopsided for Tiberi: 117-111 (that's 9-3 in rounds). It was the other two judges, Frank Garza and William Lerch, who had Toney winning by scores of 115-112.

As I mentioned in the article, Lerch was from Chicago, Garza from Detroit. Where did Toney come from? That’s right--Detroit. However, a Senate investigation, led by Senator William Roth of Delaware (the same state as Tiberi came from), produced no evidence of foul play. The only thing that investigation did was show that both Lerch and Garza did not have licenses issued in New Jersey. They were, however, licensed in their home states.

The only thing that fight did, was show what incredible disparity there can be when 12 close rounds are piled on top of each other and three people are asked to give their official scores. Two saw it one way. Another saw it entirely different.

As for the Julio Cesar Chavez-Meldrick Taylor fight, I was besieged with calls from the media, asking me if I agreed with Steele, as I was then Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission. My answer was “Yes, I agree with his call.” It’s not the referee’s job to know how much time is remaining in the round. It’s his (or her) job to protect the fighter. In the incredible thunder of noise that existed throughout the arena in the final seconds of that fight, Steele was unaware of how many seconds remained. He had been watching both fighters closely because both were battered, cut, hurt and exhausted from a long, grueling fight. When Taylor went down and rose on unsteady legs and didn’t respond to Steele’s questions, other than to blink and turn his head away from Steele, the referee had no choice but to stop the fight. I’ve watched the tape plenty, especially in the days after it happened. I watched it by myself, I watched it with my staff and I watched it with friends who are/were in the boxing business.

I had no doubt then that Richard Steele did the right thing in stopping the fight.

I feel the same way today.

-Randy G.

P.S.--I also believed in backing up a ref's call. If the ref made a controversial call, I would always back him up. In private I might disagree with him, but in public I was always with him.

GorDoom
08-10-2008, 05:20 PM
Don't mean to interrupt all the sturm & drang .... Actually I do.

This is an article that Randy wrote for the CBZ back in Jan. 2000. I'm sure he doesn't remember it but I do ...

Randy's World of Boxing

By Randy Gordon

The new millennium was not yet one week old when Father Time ran out the Clock of Life on Theodore "Teddy" Brenner, 82, perhaps the greatest matchmaker this sport has ever known.

To know Teddy was to know a man who truly loved boxing. For over 50 years he was involved with his passion. Among his many credentials: He was the longtime matchmaker for Madison Square Garden as well as for promoter Bob Arum's promotional firm, Top Rank.

Brenner saw the greats and made matches for most of them.The greatest, according to Teddy, was Sugar Ray Robinson.

"Unparalleled," is what Brenner would always tell me about Robinson.

He also made matches for ESPN when the sports network was just getting off the ground.

"Top Rank Boxing," is the show ESPN ran from 1979 through the mid-1980's, giving Top Rank a virtual monopoly on their shows.

For years, I used to ride from New York City to Atlantic City with Brenner. Two-and-a-half hours there and two-and-a-half hours back. For five hours, we talked boxing. Then, in 1982, Brenner and I got into a huge fight.
We didn't speak for seven years.

Then, in 1989, when I had already been Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission for a year, Brenner approached me at a press conference. I saw him coming and began to walk away. He said, "Randy, wait! I need to speak with you." I looked at him with astonished eyes and mouth open in astonishment.


"Teddy wants to talk with me?" I thought. "Wow! I wonder what this is all about."


I found out a few moments later.

"I'm dying," the then-72-year-old Brenner said, "and I want to make peace with as many people as I can." He proceeded to tell me that the fight we had been having since 1982 was his fault. Then he told me the story. I
listened intently. All he told me I already knew for years, as a former colleague of his had told me the entire story only a week after the incident in 1982. For years, Brenner denied it all. Now, he was clearing the air.When he was done telling me the story, he asked me to forgive him. I told him I would, though a deep scar remained.

"I'm so, so sorry for hurting you," Brenner said, over and over. He could not have sounded more sincere, and I hugged him. Then he said, "If you have a few minutes after the press conference, come on up to the office so we
can talk boxing. I smiled and thanked him. I also took him up on his offer. We talked for several hours.

As it turned out, the disease Brenner thought would soon take his life thankfully turned out to be a false alarm. However, he was having problems with his back and legs and was soon confined to a wheelchair. Not wanting to
go out in public in a wheelchair, Brenner began to spend virtually every waking hour in his Manhattan apartment, talking on the telephone.

In the early '90's, Madison Square Garden threw Brenner a party for his 75th birthday. I pulled the "Theodore Brenner" file from amongst the files at the New York State Athletic Commission and showed them to Teddy. The file contained his matchmaker licenses, dating back to the early 1940's. He looked at them and saw pictures of a young, strikingly handsome young man. He fought back tears. I told him I would turn the file over to Ed Brophy, Executive Director of the Boxing Hall of Fame, where the file so rightly belonged. Days later, I did exactly that.

A few years ago, Brenner slipped into deep depression after one of his closest friends, Robbie Margolies, died after plunging several stories from his balcony. It is still unsure whether Margolies was murdered. Regardless,
he was gone, and so was Brenner's longtime pal. He told me and he told a few other of his friends that "there's no point in going on." His will to live had ebbed.

Though he clung to life, the last few years saw him slip further and further into depression. A few months ago, a longtime associate of his traveled across the country to surprise him in New York. At his door, the visitor was sent away, told only, "Mr. Brenner is not taking any visitors."

His will to live was gone.
He died peacefully on January 6.

In the early 1980's, Brenner wrote a book about boxing. It was entitled, "Only The Ring Was Square." He signed the book for me only days before our fight in 1982 which separated us for seven years. They are words
which will stay with Teddy and me. They are words I always knew he meant, even during the years of our fight. In 1992, 10 years after he wrote them and three years after we made up, he asked me, "Do you still have my book?"I told him "Of course I do." He asked, "Do you remember what I wrote to you?" I told him I certainly did, and repeated what he wrote. He said, "Those words I wrote are very true." I smiled and thanked him.

Every time I think of Teddy Brenner, I will try not to think of the vicious fight I had with him, a fight which actually changed the course of my career, but I'll try to think of our drives back and forth to Atlantic City and of how much he taught me about boxing and of the words he wrote to me in his book.

I'm glad to have known Teddy Brenner.


To boxing history's greatest matchmaker, of which there will never be another one even close to his enormous talent, Rest In Eternal Peace.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *

I'm hearing more and more that the Feds are squeezing nooses around the necks of, not just Bob Lee of the IBF, but two big-name fight promoters and a boxing manager. Quietly, but with every passing day, it is looking more and more like at least one--maybe all--of them will be moving residences soon. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of fellas!...While on the subject of the IBF, one of that organization's real good guys--Darryl Peoples--has been put in charge of the 15-year-old organization's ratings as Bob Lee fights the Federal charges against him. If anybody can restore credibility to the organization, it's the hard-working and ultra-honest Peoples...I just wish all the other organizations would come under as much scrutiny by the Feds as the IBF. However, they are all based out of the United States and the Feds can't touch them. Any wonder why they are based out of this country???...Don't know about you, but I was very impressed with Roy Jones Jr. in his fight against rough, tough David Telesco in New York City's Radio City Music Hall. The more I see of Jones the more I believe in his greatness. In many ways, he is much like Muhammad Ali. While Ali made tons of mistakes in the ring, he was just so fast he could get away with them. The same for Jones. Also, Ali used to fight only as hard as his opponent would make him fight. If you were Alfredo Evangelista or Jean Pierre Coopman, he'd fight you just so hard. If you were Joe Frazier or George Foreman, he'd reach down to fight you at that level. Apparently, Jones is that same kind of fighter. When he faces the Lou DelValles and David Telescos of the world, he gives enough to win convincingly. Put him in even easier and he won't look as good. Conversely, if he's put in tough he'll
fight tough and using much of his skill. Can he beat 41-0 Darius Michalczewski, who many think he's trying to duck? Number one, I totally disagree Jones is ducking him. Number two, I think he'll give Michalczewski a boxing lesson he'll never forget.In my book, Jones is untouchable and rapidly on his way to being considered an all-time great...Oh, and how did Jones ever get past the New York State Athletic Commission with a fractured left wrist, as he apparently had? Glad to see they do thorough physicals!...As most people know, I support boxing in every fashion, and that includes women's boxing. I'm actually looking forward to the day Laila Ali and Jackie Frazier actually trade leather. Even though Ali is only 3-0 and Frazier is yet to make her debut (that happens on February 6 in Scranton, PA), I have a real feeling the fight will eventually happen and be the biggest thing to hit the female side of the sport since Christy Martin gained national attention with her go-get-'em style some five years ago...Got into a discussion with some friends recently on the group of fighters I feel belong on the "Most Wasted Talent" list. To me, Mike Tyson has got to be number one, no matter what he does for the remainder of his career. Can you picture how great he could have been, how many gazillions of dollars he would have been worth, had he not thrown his youth away. Tony "El Torito" Ayala is also on the list, no matter what he, too, does. Sixteen years in prison took greatness away from him. High up on the list, too, is James"Lights Out" Toney. The former middleweight champion has toiled in relative obscurity and mediocrity since losing to Roy Jones in 1994. However, at 31, Toney still has his youth and all of his skills. What he has been lacking is the desire and the attitude. Now, he tells people he's ready to concentrate on winning a championship at the cruiserweight level. He certainly has the skills to do it. If his head is together, who knows what this gifted boxer can accomplish...While on the subject of age, heavyweight Mitch"Blood" Green, who is somewhere around 42, is back in the gym, training in "Gleason's, Garden City," Long Island, New York. Great! Just what boxing needs as it works to clean up its image! "Blood's" newest promoter is Sal Musumeci, head of Explosion Promotions, which has been one of New York's busiest promoters the last three years. I never knew Sal enjoyed having
migraine headaches. He must. Why else would he be promoting Green, a 20-year professional, who has been in and out of police stations more than he has been in a boxing ring the last 12 years?

Mike DeLisa
08-10-2008, 07:23 PM
Randy -- you wrote: "I also believed in backing up a ref's call. If the ref made a controversial call, I would always back him up. In private I might disagree with him, but in public I was always with him"

With all due respect, why take the party line? Why wouldn't honest criticism of a mistake be more appropriate than "backing up" the referee.

And why couldn't you as commissioner say "x referee exercised his judgment. I disagree but the call was his to make.?

Randy Gordon
08-10-2008, 08:54 PM
After I wrote the words, "...I always believed in backing up a ref's call...", I knew I'd hear from several of you. That was an understatement. Many of you sent me PM's asking why, when I was NY commish, would I would back up a ref in public, but disagree with him in private.

I should have written, "In most cases, I believe in backing up a ref's call."
Obviously, if a referee makes a call so blatantly wrong and ludicrous, I would have certainly had a problem with it, public or otherwise. Luckily, in seven years as Chairman of the NYSAC, I cannot recall having had such an incident.

However, at many boxing cards I attended over those seven years, there were many incidents involving judgemental calls of refs which the media and fans did not appreciate (giving or not giving a standing eight-count, stepping in to call "time" when a fighter's mouthpiece fell out, breaking a clinch when no break was necessary, not breaking a clinch when a break was necessary, callng or not calling a knockdown when a fighter fell against the ropes after being hit, etc.). In those cases, never did I overrule the referee. The call was his to make, not mine. That's exactly why he is in there. If the ref is the "traffic cop," as we so often have heard, then the commissioner is indeed the Chief of Police (and I was "Commissioner Gordon").

I would sit at ringside wearing a stone face for every fight, trying not to show emotion or favoritism. When a referee made a call I did not especially agree with, I wouldn't sit there and cover my face with my hands. I merely watched and did lots of writing ("Speak to {name of ref} about his late stoppage," and "Ask {name of ref} why he didn't call a knockdown when {name of fighter} was blasted into the ropes."). But when of New York's yellow journalists, or "New York Negatives," as I loved to call them, came to me and asked if I agreed with referee so-and-so, I wouldn't say, "Hell, no, I didn't agree with him. His call was inept. I think he should have..." That would have given any one of the "NYN" material for a great story the next day:

"COMMISSIONER GORDON CALLS REFEREE (NAME) "INEPT"

Speaking out against an official publically is just the wrong thing to do, just as I believe it's wrong to demean or reprimand a colleague in front of others, no matter what your line of work is. If you do it, if you want to give them constructive criticism or possibly reprimand them, do it in private.

I think if you'll ask any of the officials I worked with (including Chairman Melvina Lathan and Ron Lipton), they'll back ME up as to how I handled boxing-related, official-related issues.

Doing it the way I did it is truly the classier, more-professional way to handle a work-related matter.

That's my opinion, anyway.

-Randy G

Randy Gordon
08-12-2008, 11:20 AM
Had a chance to watch the documentary "Muhammad Ali: Made in Miami" last night on PBS. I don't care how many docs on Ali you've seen and whether you love him or feel otherwise, but the doc was a winner.

It covers his early days of training in Miami's Fifth Street Gym and his days as Cassisu Clay and the changeover to becoming the most famous man in the world, Muhammad Ali.

The doc was shown on PBS. Check your local listings to see when it'll be shown in your area. It is one-hour long and totally worth the time.

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
08-19-2008, 06:29 PM
I ran into the family of the late, great cornerman/cutman Al Gavin yesterday. Unfortunately, it was at the wake of Gavin's son-in-law, fight judge Bob Gilson, who passed away from complications after falling and breaking his hip last week. First of all, my deepest condolences to his wife, Barbara (Al's daughter), and daughter, Hope, and the rest of the Gilson/Gavin clan.

I gave Bob Gilson his license to be a fight judge in the early 1990's, and he turned into a world class judge. He made me, his family and the rest of the boxing world proud.

Rest in Peace, Bob.

I know Gilson would agree with me wholeheartedly when I say I believe Al Gavin's memory needs to be enshrined in Canastota, NY, one of these days, in the "Non-Participant" category. Well, he did box a long time ago, but he made his mark as, quite possibly, the best cutman in the sport. Yes, I know the names of other outstanding and even great cutmen. But Al Gavin stood out, even amongst them. Ralph "Close the Cut" Citro was inducted a few years ago. He belongs in Canastota. So does Gavin.

Want to see more? Go to "TheCutman.Blogspot.com"

After seeing it, you'll know what I have known for a long time: That Al Gavin belongs in the Hall of Fame.

-Randy G.

Ron Lipton
08-19-2008, 08:22 PM
Very sad news and sincere condolences to the family, just absolutely terrible and heartbreaking.

Al Gavin absolutely belongs in the Hall of Fame.
He was the best. He taught me much about being a good cut man, cornerman as did George Mitchell, Angelo Dundee and Eddie Futch.

Al was always supportive of me as a referee a fair and square true boxing man who paid his dues and if I was still fighting I would want Al in my corner, or big George Mitchell his protege.

I remember one time in the Villa Roma after the fights were over, I was sitting alone with my son Brett in the coffee shop. Al came over and sat with us and we talked about the old days in the Garden until they kicked us out of the place. He remembered all the fights and I loved him very much.

Always a pro during the bout, never gave the refs a hard time, always a gentleman and a pro. I miss him.

Randy Gordon
08-29-2008, 11:14 PM
A short while ago, I received a forwarded and chilling e-mail from our friend, Henry Hascup. He had been sent an e-mail from Jacquie Richardson of the Retired Boxer's Foundation and a close friend of former middleweight contender Alex Ramos.

Alex was found unconscious and near death in his California home. Apparently, he suffered a seizure and possibly a severe asthmatic attack. No drugs were found in his system.

Doctors worked on him for over an hour in the emergency room to save his life, and now he is on a respirator in the Intensive Care Unit.

During my years as Editor of The Ring and with ESPN and USA in the 1980's, I covered every one of Ramos' fights and spent more time with him than any other fighter.

Before you hit your pillow tonight, say a prayer for one of the kindest, warmest individuals G-d ever put on this planet.

-Randy G.

Ron Lipton
08-30-2008, 12:05 AM
I will,
Alex has e-mailed me over the years and we stayed in touch, he is a loving warm hearted great guy, who truly cares about fighters needing help,this is just terrible, I pray to God he is going to be alright.

Ron

KOJOE90
08-30-2008, 09:35 AM
This is sad news indeed.

Get well soon Mr Ramos.

theironbar
08-30-2008, 04:36 PM
That is terrible news! I exchanged e-mails a few years ago with Alex -- what a great guy!

-Peter

hhascup
08-30-2008, 10:28 PM
This is all the E-Mails that I received on Alex Ramos's condition:

I just received this E-Mail from Jacquie Richardson, a
very close friend of Alex Ramos.


Dear friends, I am writing this to people who I know love and care about Alex Ramos.

He is in the hospital in critical condition. He is on a respirator. After several hours in the Emergency Room, he has just been transferred to the Intensive
Care Unit. He has nor regained consciousness, and now, he is in a drug induced coma to rest his brain. The best guess at this time, per the physician, is that he suffered from brain seizures and possibly an asthma attack. His vital signs are stable, finally. The worked on him for over an hour this morning to resuscitate him in the ER and performed many tests. He had a CT scan and his brain shows no sign of bleeding or anuerysm. His
tox screens came back negative --no alcohol or drugs.
Since I had not heard from Alex since yesterday at 5:30 PM, and since
he had not checked his email for 15 hours, I became worried (If you
know Alex, you know he calls me frequently!). I called his apartment
manager, Vicky, and told her that I had a bad feeling and if she saw
Alex, would she call me and tell me he was alive. As we talked, I
told her that I did not want to impose on his right to privacy, but I
was concerned that he might have fallen or that he was sick. Vicky
called her manager and made the brave decision to go into the
apartment. Without going into details, Alex was unconscious, with
shallow breathing and probably near death. Vicky called 9-1-1 and
they attempted to stabilize him and took him to the Emergency Room.
ER Staff worked for another hour to stabilize him, using a hand
respirator. He had a CT scan that revealed no bleeding or anuerysm.
As I said, Tox screens came back negative. Based on the description
of how he was found (body and neck rigid/stiff), there is a strong
suspician that he suffered a seizure, and complications from asthma.
I will keep you posted. Please, if you have a prayer in your heart,
use if for Alex. He will be slowly weaned from the respirator which
will leave us with some answers about how much damage has been done
early tomorrow morning. Alex is loved by many people through out
the world and he needs you to pray for his recovery.
As he always says...."God Bless!"
Jacquie
RETIRED BOXERS FOUNDATION

Lets all pray for his 100% recovery,

Thanks, Henry Hascup



Alex was moved to the Intensive Care Unit at about 5 today. He
remains heavily sedated and on the respirator.
The Neurologist saw him today and the are nearly certain that Alex had one or more severe seizures and probably an asthma attack. His lungs are wheezing and they are caring for that condition. The neurologist did a test to determine whether Alex's eyes would respond to light and they did, which is a good thing. I know that he is in pain because he cries out and he had a seizure while I was there. Thank God he is so heavily sedated. I am pretty sure he has no clue how sick he is. '

The hospital ICU nurses told me that the next 12 hours are critical. He will be
weaned from the respirator and we will see if he can breathe on his own.
He will be in a drug induced coma for at least the next 24 hours. After
that, the doctors will know more.

I will keep you all posted. Your prayers mean the world right now.
I would call each and every one of you if I could, but my phone battery died a couple of hours ago. Email will at least help me communicate with all of you. I will send updates as I can. If you would rather not get these emails, just let me know.

God Bless!

Jacquie
RETIRED BOXERS FOUNDATION



Here’s also an article that Mike Indri just wrote on his good friend Alex. Mike said he is like a brother to him:

Please Pray for AlexRamos.
Champion for all ex-fighters - now fighting for his own life.

By Mike Indri
Retired Boxers Foundation
August 29, 2008

Hundreds of phone calls each year come into the (805) 955-9064 home
of former USBA middleweight champion Alex Ramos.
MOST are from current or retired boxers that have fallen on hard times.
MANY of these calls from Alex's boxing brothers can't or won't even be followed
up with a "thank-you" call after receiving that much desired
help, yet one thing is for sure…
ALL these calls will be answered.

Since forming the Retired Boxers Foundation in 1995, proudly serving as the
non-profit organization's president since day one, Alex Ramos has devoted his
life
to helping his fellow retired boxers in need.
While having to rely on miniscule funds raised from not enough fundraisers and
donations, the "RBF" has been able to literally come to the aid of
thousands of hurting fighters. This was as much a part due to the
relentless efforts of the committed five-time New York Golden Gloves champion, as it was to
his infectious smile, his warm personality and gigantic, lovable heart; which
drew many willing resources from outside boxing.
Surprisingly, and embarrassingly, support from within boxing - a sport and
business that Ramos has embraced since he first entered a Bronx gym, along with
his father, at the age of eleven - has been virtually non-existent.
The RBF's Executive Director Jacquie Richardson, a Simi Valley governmental
worker, is the backbone of the organization.

One of the many RBF hats that Richardson dutifully wears is that of
"Surrogate Mother" to the forty-seven year-old former middleweight
contender who sometimes needs to be prodded to takes his pills, make his
scheduled doctor visits, or simply insist on his taking a much needed walk if
the always-hyper Ramos's stress level soars while spending countless hours
manned at his computer answering the endless drove of emails.

"Mama Jacquie" as she is affectionately called sensed something
wasn't right, after not hearing from Alex since Thursday evening and
realizing his email had not been checked for close to fifteen hours.
Those of us dearly close can expect calls usually every fifteen minutes!

Nervously calling upon Alex's apartment complex manager, a conscientious check
found Ramos unconscious, barely breathing and in near-death condition.
Rushed to a nearby hospital and feverishly worked on for over an hour in order
to be resuscitated, Ramos spent the day in critical condition with a grim
prognosis.
After battling for many hours Alex has been transferred to the Intensive Care
Unit. He is currently on a
respirator; his condition has been stabilized,
but has not regained consciousness and is in a drug-induced coma, to rest his
brain.
Latest word is that Alex's eyes are following the direction of light from his
doctor's flashlight and they may plan to take him off the respirator sometime
tomorrow, although he is still unconscious.

Alex Ramos is a credit to boxing and has been a shining star of hope for so
many downtrodden warriors who had mistakenly thought that they were
forgotten…NOW is their time to say "THANKS".
We all need to help Alex, with our prayers and our hope.

I haven't met anyone, in or out of boxing, who is so dear, so genuinely warm
and caring, and so deeply motivated and passionate for the cause, as Alex.
I love him like a brother, and hope you will say a prayer for Alex Ramos.
Thank you.

Mike Indri can be contacted at RBFNJMIKE@aol.com

Thanks, Henry Hascup

LATEST UPDATE ON ALEX:

I just spoke to the ICU nurse. Alex woke up "a little bit"
during the
night and was able to follow simple commands. She asked him to
squeeze her hand and he did. He does not like the breathing tube and
they are going to try to disconnect it later today. This is very good
news. Alex is a fighter. He is still heavily sedated. He is
still
listed as "critical."

Jacquie Richardson


Some GOOD NEWS about Alex!!

I just returned from the hospital (6:15 California Time) and I am so
happy to report that Alex has come out of the coma. They removed the
respirator and all of the tubes, and he is talking, complaining, and
seeking all the attention he can get from the nurses! He is a little
bit disoriented and he does not recall what happened to him. He tried
to get out of bed and go home, so they have given him more sedatives.
He doesn't want to sleep, but he needs to, which is why I finally
left.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of your prayers, for
that is what brought him back to us. In the end, the neurologist
believes that Alex suffered a couple of pretty serious grand mal
seizures, triggered (possibly) by an asthma attack. Believe me,
someone was looking over Alex! It was 110 degrees in his bedroom, and
his blood pressure was very high. Dr. Stiller of our Medical Advisory
Board explained that this is what forced blood to his brain and is
probably why he does not appear to have suffered any serious brain
damage. He is not out of the woods, and still listed as "serious
condition" and will remain in the ICU for at least another 24 hours.

Please continue to pray for him, and then pray for me because he is a
little cranky! He is mad that I "told his business" but I explained
to him that if something happened to ME and no one told him, he would
be madder than hell. He understands when I tell him that way. A few
minutes pass and he starts all over. Its going to take a few days for
him to be completely back to normal, and barring any unforseen
changes, that is what I am waiting for.

I will sleep tonight and again, I thank you all for your prayers. I
thank Vicky the very most because she took a chance when I asked her
to open Alex's door. Another hour and he would have been dead.

Love and hugs,

Jacquie
RETIRED BOXERS FOUNDATION


Thanks, Henry Hascup

Ron Lipton
08-30-2008, 10:58 PM
All the people that love Alex did the right thing.
He is a tough and lovable guy and full of pride and fight to this day.
Thank God we have some good news and hope with this now.

Thank you for letting us know.

Ron

gregbeyer
08-31-2008, 11:23 AM
good to hear alex is doing better. crankiness is a good sign of recovery.

gods speed,

greg

hhascup
08-31-2008, 09:39 PM
Alex will be in the hospital for at least a week. He is being moved
out of intensive care tonight, but he has developed an infection which
has to be treated. He also needs to be able to get up and move
around. If people want to send him a card, send it to:

Alex Ramos (Patient)
Simi Valley Adventist Hospital
2975 North Sycamore Drive
Simi Valley, CA 93065

Alex is very touched by all of the email and the phone calls Mike
Indri and I have told him about. He will love and treasure and save
every card or letter sent to him. I think it will help him a lot!

Thank you, Henry, for your loving thoughts and for your concern. Alex
got a tear in his eye when I told him you sent this out to the boxing
community. THANK YOU!

Jacquie

hhascup
09-02-2008, 06:05 PM
I said I wouldn't do any more updates, but because of the number of
calls and emails, here is the latest:

It's Tuesday morning and Alex had his second physical therapy session
this morning. As I told you earlier, he cannot walk. He can feel his
feet, but he cannot make them move like he wants to. I know for a
fact that Alex is a fighter: In spite of the fact that he has severe
gout in both feet (new development) and his right arm is as big as his
thigh (swollen from all the IV'), he worked with the PT to stand with
a walker. The therapist wanted two tries, but he did 4. The
therapist was very happy, but Ramos wanted three more, which he did.
He is going to walk come hell or high water. He is in great physical
condition since he has been going to the gym on a regular basis.
Stong heart and strong will. I could see that he worked through a lot
of pain and he worked up a sweat! He is definitely motivated.

Alex will have a lot of work to do to get back his legs and it is
encouraging to him to know how many people prayed for him and who care
about him. If anyone wants to do something, I would suggest that you
send him a note or a card. He will not be on the computer for at
least a week, but if you want to leave him a message, I print them out
and take them to the hospital. If you are in the Los Angeles area, he
welcomes visitors. He is at Simi Valley Hospital, 2175 Sycamore, Simi
Valley, CA 93065. He is in the Telemetry unit, Room 272.

Thank you again for all your love and support and for your prayers.
It makes a difference!

Jacquie


Thanks, Henry Hascup

hhascup
09-06-2008, 10:14 PM
Thought you would all like to know that Alex Ramos is out of the hospital, and is walking with a cane, although he has a ways to go. He is blown away by all of the email and phone calls and cards. It is hard for me to believe that one week ago this minute, he was coming out of a 48 hour coma!!! He will be getting home health assistance (nursing) and he will also have home physical therapy. He got amazing care at Simi Valley Adventist Hospital and the nurses were sad to see him go. Alex thanks you all for your love, prayers and support, and asks that you continue through his recovery. His feet are still very painful when he walks, but that does not stop him!

Alex IS a fighter and we are all grateful for his miraculous recovery. Like I said, he's too mean to die and he is to determined to beat this thing, and I believe he will. As you would expect, he wants to run but he has to walk, first.

I would also like to thank you all for the moral support. We could not have gone through this alone. We needed to multiply our own
prayers and you were there for us. THANK YOU!

If you want to call Alex, feel free to call him on his cell phone at (805) 390-7334.

Love and hugs,

Jacquie Richardson
Executive Director
RETIRED BOXERS FOUNDATION

PS- I just talked to Alex and he is doing GREAT and is thankful for all your support and prayers.

Thanks, Henry

walshb
09-11-2008, 12:28 PM
Hi Randy,

Quick question:

Did the RING or NAT continue to rate Ali during the exiled years
because this was the POLICY of the magazine; or, did NAT and the RING continue to rate Ali because NAT was a decent fellow and had a liking for Ali?

I maintain that NAT and RING had to rate Ali as the champ because POLICY dictated this and had NAT and the RING changed this policy and NOT rated Ali, they would have lost a hell of a lot of credibility!

I also maintain, that if this policy did NOT exist, RING and NAT would have immediately removed Ali as the listed champ!

Thanks.

walshb
09-11-2008, 12:57 PM
Damn, I want to edit post #573 but can't.

I also maintain, that if this policy did NOT exist, RING and NAT would have immediately removed Ali as the listed champ!

This above line should read:

I also maintain, that if this policy did NOT exist, RING and NAT would more than likely have immediately removed Ali as the listed champ!

I'd hate to be accused of being over zealous

hawk5ins
09-11-2008, 01:38 PM
This is what Walsh REALLY wants to ask you:

"Randy,

I am in the midst of a debate with some poor deluded fellow (Hawk) that thinks for some unknown reason that Nat Fleischer had some sort of 'Omni-Powerful' reign and hold over the Ring during the years he ran it after creating the magazine himself.

He seems to think that the RING Policies were actually HIS policies and that he dictated decisions such as continuing to List Ali as Champion during the years of his (Ail's) exile when every other publication, commision and sanctioning body, withdrew their recognition from Ali. He thinks this decision by the Ring is something that Nat had the Final say on. Simply because it was the Magazine that Nat created and ran from 1922 until 1972.

Would you do me a favor and set him straight in explaining to him that Nat Fleischer did not wield this sort of dictatorship like power over the magazine and that decisions made by the magazine were not influenced or required final sign-off by Nat Fleischer, who in your current incarnation of the magazine is 'only' credited as being "Founder" of the Ring?

Thank you very much.

Walsh"

Hawk

walshb
09-11-2008, 02:03 PM
This is what Walsh REALLY wants to ask you:

"Randy,

I am in the midst of a debate with some poor deluded fellow (Hawk) that thinks for some unknown reason that Nat Fleischer had some sort of 'Omni-Powerful' reign and hold over the Ring during the years he ran it after creating the magazine himself.

He seems to think that the RING Policies were actually HIS policies and that he dictated decisions such as continuing to List Ali as Champion during the years of his (Ail's) exile when every other publication, commision and sanctioning body, withdrew their recognition from Ali. He thinks this decision by the Ring is something that Nat had the Final say on. Simply because it was the Magazine that Nat created and ran from 1922 until 1972.

Would you do me a favor and set him straight in explaining to him that Nat Fleischer did not wield this sort of dictatorship like power over the magazine and that decisions made by the magazine were not influenced or required final sign-off by Nat Fleischer, who in your current incarnation of the magazine is 'only' credited as being "Founder" of the Ring?

Thank you very much.

Walsh"

Hawk
Now now, Hawk, manners. Allow Randy to answer the question without unnecessary influence. Don't let yourself down!

Hey, by all means, you can ask him that question after he's answered mine!

Randy Gordon
09-11-2008, 02:26 PM
Walsh: Great question about The Ring/Nat's rating of Muhammad Ali during his 3 1/2 years of exile (1967-1970).

When Muhammad Ali was exiled in 1967 by Edwin Dooley, the Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission, then by other state commissions, I was an 18-year-old high school senior who, along with many others, didn't think what Dooley did was right (it was later shown by the U.S. court system that he was indeed wrong!). After the NYSAC stripped Ali of the title, I called Ring Magazine and asked to speak to Publisher/Editor-in-Chief Nat Fleischer. When the secretary asked me "Who may I say is calling?" little did I realize that, in 12 more years, I would be Ring's Editor. So, rather than get prophetic and say "The future Editor-in-Chief of The Ring and future Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission," I just said, "A reader of The Ring and a big fan of Nat Fleischer." Mr. Fleischer, who was called "Mr. Boxing," got on the phone with me moments later.

"Nat Fleischer speaking," he said. "Who am I speaking with?"

"My name is Randy Gordon, sir, and I am a big fan of boxing, of yours and of The Ring."

"A big fan, huh," said Fleischer. "Who's your favorite fighter?" I told him I had several. I named them. They were Floyd Patterson, Joe Frazier, Muhammad Ali and Emile Griffith."

"Pretty solid group there," he said. I agreed.

"How can I help you, Mr. Gordon?" Fleischer asked me.

"You can try and help keep Ali as champion, Mr. Fleischer," I said to the most powerful boxing writer in the world. "It's not fair what the New York State Athletic Commission did to him."

"I agree," said Fleischer. "But I've already called Chairman Dooley and he said action has already been taken. Clay is an ex-champ in their eyes. But we at The Ring will continue to rate him as champ, no matter what. He won the title inside a ring and we feel he must lose it there as well. We will keep Clay as champion."

I noticed immediately that Fleischer called Ali by his birth name, but was too intimidated to question "Mr. Boxing" as to why he kept referring to the heavyweight champion by the name he no longer wanted to use.

Nat never mentioned if it was Ring policy that would keep Clay/Ali atop the ratings or a political move which kept him there. At the time, there were a lot of people (myself, included) who thought Ali should remain as champion. However, there were also a lot who believed that his refusal to face induction in the U.S. military should mean banishment. I believe Fleischer kept Ali atop the ratings because he believed it was the right thing to do. As he said, "He won the title inside a ring..."

I did ask Nat if I could become a Long Island correspondent for The Ring, and he was extremely nice as he turned my request down, saying, "We already are overloaded with requests for Long Island, Brooklyn, Queens and Manhattan correspondents. But if you'll send me a letter asking me for such a position, I will keep your request on file."

The following month, when I pulled The Ring off the newsstand at my favorite candy store (that's what we had back in "those days"), the first thing I did was flip to the ratings. There, amongst the heavyweight was this:

HEAVYWEIGHTS
CHAMPION: Cassius Clay

Ali was still champion of the world in The Ring's eyes. He also was still, as Nat Fleischer called him, "Cassius Clay." In later years, his son-in-law, Nat Loubet, who succeeded Fleischer as Publisher/Editor, told me, "Nat could be stubborn. He came to know Ali as Cassius Clay and that's how it remained. While almost everyone called him Ali, Nat continued to call him Clay. He meant no harm in doing it, but to him, he was Clay, not Ali."

Following my 1967 chat with "Mr. Boxing," I didn't speak with him again for about four yearsr, when I was getting ready to graduate from college. He was in failing health and very rarely in the office. But, on the day I called, I found him in. He took my call, remembering his conversation with me in 1967.

Again, I requested a position as a Long Island correspondent. Again, he told me to send in a letter or resume. I did. I received a call back from him a few months later. He told me he'd begin using me as a Long Island correspondent very soon. Then, he took ill and died a short time later.

So, Ali/Clay, whatever, remained as The Ring's champion through his exile. It may not have been The Ring's policy, but it was Fleischer's. And he WAS The Ring.

-Randy G.

walshb
09-11-2008, 02:56 PM
Thanks a lot for that long reply. Great effort and thought put into it.

So, it seems from what you have said, that Nat and RING kept Ali as champ because
he and they felt it was the'right thing to do'. The right thing according to their policy?

Did their policy not dictate that this was the right thing to do. Policies obviously devised by Nat?

You say NAT never mentioned that it was RING policy to retain Ali as champ.
Did he have to?, or was that not just implied and widely known?

I am not an expert on the RING or NAT, but from what I know, the most fundamental and known fact about RING magazine was their policy regarding the continual rating of the champ.

I am not doubting that the RING and NAT were interwoven so to speak; however, I just believe that NAT kept Ali as champ purely because this was HIS and RINGS policy, and not because he had any liking to the guy. My god, he couldn't even call the man by his name, and IMO, that's pretty low, yet you believe Nat meant no harm? I don't buy that for a second. I think there was a strong dislike for the man and his beliefs and his
convictions.

Randy, about this almost mythic policy I have asked you about. Simple question, did it and does it exist?

Thanks mate

Mike DeLisa
09-11-2008, 03:21 PM
Nat Fleisher set all Ring "policy" -- there was no "they"

Also, I believe Fleisher did accept Ali's "retirement" which made Joe Frazier-Jimmy Ellis a bout for vacant title.

walshb
09-11-2008, 03:32 PM
Nat Fleisher set all Ring "policy" -- there was no "they"

Also, I believe Fleisher did accept Ali's "retirement" which made Joe Frazier-Jimmy Ellis a bout for vacant title.
Ok, NAT, did NAT's policy exist in this regard? Yes or no?

Thanks

hawk5ins
09-11-2008, 03:55 PM
I'd say the answer is no.

It was not listed in the Magazine in the ratings section and if there were such policies they would be Nat's Policies and he could see fit to do what he wanted with the policy.

And if they did exist, the Ring during the Fleischer years did not abide by them consistantly. IE, Nat could do what he wanted with any such policies.

Case in point: Archie Moore.

He was stripped first by the NYSAC and EBU on Fe 10 1962 for not defending the 175 title.....against top ranked and then NBA Light Heavyweight Champ Harold Johnson. The Ring followed suit and on May 12, the RIng Recognized Johnson's bout agianst Doug Jones as a fight for the Vacant title.

The Reasons cited for Declaring the Light Heavyweight title vacant was Moore not Defending agianst Johnson. His last Defense in 61' was considered a World Title defense but at the time Only California and Mass recognized Moore as Champ. Along with the Ring. When their recognition went away, The Ring followed suit.

Moore did NOT relinquish his title. He was stripped of recognition.

This goes agianst the policy of Only losing your title in the Ring by defeat, or by retirement or moving out of the division and relinquishing the belt.

Moore was releived of his title by being stripped.

Hawk

walshb
09-11-2008, 04:08 PM
I'd say the answer is no.

It was not listed in the Magazine in the ratings section and if there were such policies they would be Nat's Policies and he could see fit to do what he wanted with the policy.

And if they did exist, the Ring during the Fleischer years did not abide by them consistantly. IE, Nat could do what he wanted with any such policies.

Case in point: Archie Moore.

He was stripped first by the NYSAC and EBU on Fe 10 1962 for not defending the 175 title.....against top ranked and then NBA Light Heavyweight Champ Harold Johnson. The Ring followed suit and on May 12, the RIng Recognized Johnson's bout agianst Doug Jones as a fight for the Vacant title.

The Reasons cited for Declaring the Light Heavyweight title vacant was Moore not Defending agianst Johnson. His last Defense in 61' was considered a World Title defense but at the time Only California and Mass recognized Moore as Champ. Along with the Ring. When their recognition went away, The Ring followed suit.

Moore did NOT relinquish his title. He was stripped of recognition.

This goes agianst the policy of Only losing your title in the Ring by defeat, or by retirement or moving out of the division and relinquishing the belt.

Moore was releived of his title by being stripped.

Hawk
Woohoo, I finally get my answer. Why oh why did it take that long!

However, your answer doesn't appear to be definitive. You say 'I'd say no'; sort of sounds like you are not really sure...Just a thought! I will accept it.

hawk5ins
09-11-2008, 04:24 PM
You pointed to the Ring Website that has the CURRENT Championship policy.

As I have repeated Multiple times now, that policy was created in December of 2001. It did not apply during the time when Nat and the Ring were one and the same.

However, all of this re: formal "in writing" policies for the Ring during Nat's 50 years at the Helm of the magazine he may or may not have created, is irrelevant, as The Commander and Chief of the Ring: Nat Fleischer, who WAS the Ring, had the Final say on any policies he created and Override or Veto Power on anything. ANYTHING.

It was All Nat. He had the final say on everything. He was BOUND by nothing and could do whatever he wanted to.

I don't know how much clearer this has to be for you to understand this.

Granted Walsh, you have come a long way from your stating the following only two days ago as it pertained to Nat/The Ring recognizing Ali as Heavyweight chanp during the exile years:

"That recognition was by the RING and NOT NAT!

I bet if Nat was allowed, that recognition would have been wiped.

You are making out that NAT recognised him and Nat alone.

Nat was a major player in the RING obviously, but he WASN'T the RING!"

But you still have a bit to go before you, I dunno..."Get IT".

Hawk

walshb
09-11-2008, 04:26 PM
And you just have a long way to go!

Mike DeLisa
09-11-2008, 04:53 PM
Hawk --

Great example on Archie Moore -- I actually wanted to raise that but can't get to my books right now.

Fleisher did write several editorials about Clay-Ali and the title -- again, I cant get to them.

But the point remains the same -- NatRing made all decisions while he was there. And, he was not consistent.

PS and by way of digression -- and I guess not for Randy's thread:
Nat also compromised his objectivity by taking paid trips around the world to serve as judge/referee.

Mike DeLisa
09-11-2008, 04:56 PM
PS -- Ring started arbitrary lineages in 2001 -- some 5 years after the CBZ began recognizing lineal titles and actually using the proper lineages!

The whole notion of "Lineal Title" in fact was I advanced by GorDoom and me.

We may need to update a few pages for lineages, but I still think our champ lists are the best!

Randy Gordon
09-11-2008, 11:19 PM
Believe me, guys. From all I heard from his former staffers and even from his son-in-law Nat Loubet, who took over the reigns when Fleischer stepped down, "Mr Boxing" was more in control of every aspect of The Ring than Jose Sulaiman is with the WBC. If he wanted a fight, but both er rated, he was rated. If he wanted a fighter dropped, he was dropped. Hey, he was the guy who started the ratings system in the first place, and he figured he could do anything he wanted at any time.

And, yes, I definitely agree that Nat compromised his objectivity by taking money from promoters to travel around the world, even serving as a ringside official on many occasions.

But, when we attack or question the judgement or a statement by Nat Fleischer or a Cus D'Amato, who was as nutty as my grandmother's fruitcake, often come under fire by many veterans in the boxing biz. Both were very interesting characters, but both were extremely flawed (Cus told Bert Sugar and myself that we were wrong saying that Duk Koo-Kim was killed due to injuries suffered in his bout with Ray Mancini.). To many, attacking those two is worse than blasphemy.

Tar and feather me!

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
09-25-2008, 02:46 PM
Well, the big build-up for Oscar de la Hoya-Manny Pacquiao begins next Wednesday in NYC, when the two kick off a six-city tour. They will hold the first p.c. at Liberty Island in NYC, at the base of the Statue of Liberty, the first-ever p.c. held there. Two other famous venues which will host their p.c.'s will be the Sears Tower in Chicago and the Alamo in San Antonio, Texas.

I will be attending the NY p.c. and have Oscar on my show at Sirius radio. While I can only see a de la Hoya victory here, I am shocked at how many fans actually think Pac-Man has a shot because of his busy southpaw style.

What's the feeling out there in CBZ Land? Is it one-sided for Oscar? Pac? Or are you guys divided?

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
09-25-2008, 03:05 PM
points to an Oscar Victory.

Unless he is in much worse shape than he was for Mayweather or even Forbes, I can't see how he loses.

I think the intrigue here is completely reliant on the mystery surrounding both fighters. What does Oscar have left in the tank? Can Manny perform effectively at such a high weight.

Sort of like when Jones went up agians Ruiz. Although it is completely unfair to compare Oscar to the Quiet man.

I used logic in that pick and chose Ruiz becuase quite frankly, I did not anticipate just how bad Ruiz would be. Based on what I saw in the uneven performances agianst a faded Holyfield, it seemed obvious to me at the time, that if he used his size and strength effectively, it would be an easy night for him.

Well he did neither and of course Nady didn't allow him to fight his typical Ugly fight either.

Was wrong as wrong could be on that one.....using LOGIC. Of course in Hindsight, it was OBVIOUS that Jones was such a superior talent to Ruiz. I simply expected Ruiz to do more to offset the talent disparity. He cemented his "quality" when he did it agian vs. Toney.

Oscar has SOOOO much more proven talent than Ruiz. ANd Manny isn't as versatile as Jones.

THINKING what Oscar should be on fight night, it SHOULD be a clear win for him. However, I suspect that he may not bring to the table come fight night what we expect him to.

It's no win for him. Win and he was supposed to have won. Lose and it looks bad. Even if being shot, is a valid reason.

I'm taking Oscar based on Logic.

But where has logic ever gotten me?

Hawk

Randy Gordon
09-25-2008, 09:14 PM
Hawk: With the de la Hoya vs Pac-Man fight, more fans are breaking the matchup down into tiny variables than I have have seen in a long time: Pac is too fast...Oscar is slowing down...Oscar is a much harder puncher...Pac is just too small to deal with Oscar's size...Pac's style will give Oscar problems...Oscar's right will be totally ineffective against the faster Pac-Man. And on and on.

My initial feeling is that Oscar will win and probably win big, but I just know I'm gonna' waffle--a lot--before the opening bell rings.

Pac's right jab will be too pesky for de la Hoya...Pac's fast combinations are something Oscar hasn't seen in a long time...

Know what? I think this fight can be fun!

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
09-26-2008, 07:21 AM
Becuase guys like us are going to over analyze the Bejesus out of it to try and figure out what will happen.

What will be neat about this is, that after all the breakdowns and X factors and scenario analization, the fight will more than likely turn out to be so simplistic and after it's all over, we'll all sit back and state how "obvious" it all was and why didn't we see it for how it ended up being.

If nothing else, it'll give us all something to talk about!

And that's what the sport needs.

Even if this is REALLY an odd matchup.

And "Uneven" Even Matchup?

Hawk

Randy Gordon
09-26-2008, 11:19 AM
...is exactly what Oscar vs. Pac-Man is. Can you picture, say 25 years ago, Sugar Ray Leonard taking on someone like Ruben Olivares, a fighter was blasted through the flyweights, became a great bantamweight champ, the featherweight king, and then moved up through jr. lightweight to lightweight?

I am so curious as to how this fight is going to turn out. I anxiously await next week, when I get a chance to question Oscar about it.

As for tomorrow's bout, I look for Sugar Shane to beat the man (Ricardo Mayorga) who beat him (Vernon Forrest).

-Randy G.

10-8
09-26-2008, 11:54 AM
I'm taking Oscar based on Logic.

But where has logic ever gotten me?

HawkFor years I was a logic thinker.

Can Spinks beat Holmes? Nonsense, light-heavyweight champs can't make the leap!

Can Leonard beat Hagler? Nonsense he's a welter whose career ended 5 years ago!

Can Foreman regain the heavyweight title? Ya gottta be kiddin' me. He hasn't fought in 10 years and weighs over 300 lbs!

Throw in SRL getting KO'd by an old feather-fisted Macho Camacho, and middleweights Roy Jones and James Toney winning belts at heavyweight and nothing really surprises me anymore.

I'm going against logic and relying on gut feeling and I somehow envision Manny winning this one. His reign at welter will be over quickly though if he stays at that weight.

TDKO
09-26-2008, 01:19 PM
I would use logic to pick Pac-man here's why:

Manny is younger, faster and in his prime.
All Freddie has to do is to tell him to box using in and out movement, and circle away from Oscar's Left hook , and come on strong in the later rounds when Oscar fades (he will fade), and win a close UD.....
But:

Manny does get hit!
Oscar's right (being a converted southpaw) cannot hurt Manny bad enough(in my opinion), but if Oscar connects with the Left hook....goodnight!
I still go with Manny UD, but this is boxing anything is possible.

Randy Gordon
09-26-2008, 10:33 PM
10-8, TDKO, Hawk: Yeh, let's not go with logic in this one. It wouldn't surprise me if the fight went like TDKO said--with Pac moving in and out with his faster punches, stealing the late rounds as Oscar fades and capturing a close, stunning unanimous decision. But, as I said earlier, I really expect to waffle tremendously for this one. I'm gonna' be like Bob Arum here: "I said that yesterday, but it's not how I feel today!"

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
09-28-2008, 03:22 PM
In last night's HBO doubleheader, we were treated to two action bouts and exposed to one annoying refereeing job and a head-slapping, "What the freak was he watching?" judging job.

Last night's annoying referee was Dr. James Jen-Kin, a California-based physician who doubles as a judge in the state. As a judge, I like him. As a ref, he is an action-stopper who over-involves himself in the fight too many times. His assignment was the Andre Berto-Steve Forbes bout. Every time the two moved in close, there was Dr. Jen-Kin to break them up. Over and over and over, as the two moved in close for some down-in-the-trenches warfare, there was Jen-Kim, hollering, "Break," or "Stop punching" or some other annoying command the moment the two locked up. Rarely, if at all, did he let the two work out of it (I won't even say "clinch", as many times they were not clinches). If anything, Dr. Jen-Kin's commands were action stoppers. Many friends called me or texted me during the bout to complain.

"What the hell is this ref's problem?" asked one of my friends.

"Get this fat ref out of there!" complained an other.

But he stayed in there all the way, and I found myself incredibly annoyed by his actions and not as able to enjoy the excellent fight because of him.

Not that it will do any good, but I intend to call my friend Armando Garcia, the Executive Director of the California State Athletic Commission and give him my two--and even three and four cents--about how Jen-Kim, an excellent judge, should continue to watch and score fights and not be the third man and ruin the action of a bout.

A California official who had a worse night than Dr. Jen-Kin was judge Pat Russell. Had the Sugar Shane Mosley-Ricardo Mayorga fight lasted another second, it would have gone to the scorecards. It was a fight in which Mosley outclassed the rough and brawling Mayorga and just had to have been ahead on the scorecard of anyone who happened to have been keeping tabs on the fight (scoring the final round, my card had Mosley ahead, eight rounds to four). Apparently, the usually-competent Russell had Mayorga ahead. Ahead? On what grounds? That Mayorga was applying pressure and rough-housing Mosley? On blocking punches with his chin? Mayorga's mother wouldn't have had her son leading against Mosley. How did Russell have him leading? This is another assignment for Commissioner Garcia: find out what Russell was thinking throughout the Shane Mosley-Ricardo Mayorga fight.

Sugar Shane Mosley and Andre Berto. They are two world-class fighters who had outstanding nights on Saturday, September 27. Pat Russell and Dr. James Jen-Kin are two world-class officials who did not.

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
10-09-2008, 10:57 PM
I love the card promoter Ced Kushner and his "Gotham Boxing" is putting together on November 21 at the Roseland Ballroom in NYC. It features four of New York's hottest prospects--three of them middleweights--in separate bouts.

One bout will feature red-hot lightweight Jorge Teron (22-0-1, 15 KO's); Pawel Wolak (22-1, 15 KO's) will be in another; Peter "Kid Chocolate" Quillin (20-0, 15 KO's) in another; and "Irish" John Duddy (25-0, 17 KO's) in another.

Their opponents will be announced in the next week, with matchmaker Jim Borzell telling me "all four of these guys will be put in against tough, live opposition."

Personally, I'd love to see any of the three middleweights mixed and matched against each other (Duddy-Quillin, Duddy-Wolak, Quillin-Wolak). The best of the three matchups (IMHO) would be Duddy-Quillin.

But just to see all of those guys, and the Mark Breland-trained Teron in action on the same night, is certainly worth a fight card being in attendance for.

I look forward to November 21.

Also, this weekend should be fun, with Vitali Klitschko-Sam Peter and Antonio Tarver-Chad Dawson ready to be served to us. Dawson's promoter Gary Shaw, will be nervously watching his guy face Tarver. Why nervously? He already has lost a fortune with his backing and promoting and over-paying Kimbo Slice. A Dawson loss to Tarver may put overweight Gary in the ICU of a local hospital.

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
10-20-2008, 10:42 AM
After watching Bernard Hopkins take Middleweight Champion Kelly Pavlik to school last Saturday, I decided that if, on November 8, Roy Jones does the same thing to Joe Calzaghe, it will only be natural for Jones and Hopkins to finally face each other again--more than 15 years after their 12-rounder for the IBF Middleweight Title back in May 1993.

For years I have listened to B-Hop's call for a rematch go nowehere. Promoters didn't care about putting it together, Jones didn't care about doing it again, and, most importantly, very few of us cared about seeing a Jones-Hopkins rematch.

From that night on May 22, 1993, both fighters went on to careers which will surely place them in Canastota--B-Hop with his 49-5 (32 KO's) record and all those middleweight title defenses and Roy Jones with his 52-4 (38 KO's) record and doing all he did inside the ring.

There were lots of us (me included) who never figured B-Hop would beat Pavlik, and certainly not shut him out. But a 12-round no-hitter against a big, walloping middleweight such as Pavlik? Well, he did it.

In a few weeks, Joe Calzaghe will face Roy Jones in the MSG ring. Not many of us can see the 39-year-old Jones doing the same to Calzaghe as B-Hop did to Pavlik. Quite frankly, I'm picking Calzaghe by decision. However, if Jones does the same to Calzaghe as B-Hop did to Pavlik, there is only one fight we should be thinking about at 175 pounds, and one of those names is not Chad Dawson, though he is certainly looks to have a bright career ahead of him.

The fight I want to see if and when Roy Jones takes Joe Calzaghe to the same school as Bernard Hopkins took Kelly Pavlik is the mega-rematch that has been over 15 years in the making: Roy Jones vs. Bernard Hopkins. I don't want to see the rematch if Jones loses, even by the closest of margins. He needs to win and to win the way Jones used to win--one-sidedly. Then, and only then will Jones-Hopkins be a fight we all want to see.

Chad Dawson will have to find his own opponent to be linked to over the ages.
Right now, I find myself thinking about Jones-Hopkins (I put Jones first because of his solid victory in 1993).

Bernard Hopkins did what he had to do to make the rematch possible. The next step is up to Jones.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
10-20-2008, 12:13 PM
On the Seniors Circuit Tour, but If Jones were to somehow beat Calzaghe, then I agree this rematch HAS to happen.

I gotta think Jones will be motivated to try and up Bernard and beat Joe (Something I thought Bernard very nearly did himself) and force this rematch to happen.

But to be honest, while I saw Hopkins Pavlik to be a pickem fight, based soley becuase I thought Bernard might be pushing father time one to many times, I think Jones will lose decisively to Joe.

Whihc unfortunately set up a rematch with Hops and Cal. A Hopkins Jones Rematch might prove to be just as dreadfully boring, but at least there is more time between dull affairs with that one.

I would not be opposed to seeing Jones pull it off and see if Bernard can exact revenge 16 years later.

And waiting 8 years for a Leonard Hearns rematch seemed a bit much. HA!

Hawk

hhascup
10-21-2008, 02:42 PM
The following message is from Jacquie Richardson

Alex Ramos suffered another series of seizures over the weekend, but at least they happened in front of 3 fabulous doctors who happen to be members of the Association of Professional Ringside Physicians Association, and also long time members of the Retired Boxers Foundation Medical Advisory Board.

Alex always says: "God don't make no mistakes!" and he was right again! We were on our way to the AAPRP Conference so that Alex could see Dr. Ray Monsell from Cardiff, Wales and Dr. John Stiller from Baltimore, Maryland. Both are ringside physicians with a lot of experience and on our Medical Advisory Board. When we were invited, it was shortly after Alex's bout in August when he nearly died. The doctors thought it would be a good idea for Alex to get away, and also, for myself to get away. I actually kidded them by saying that I would bring Alex as a "class project!" I feel bad about that now, but believe me, you have to maintain a sense of humor after being so scared. Alex is a neat guy and we all would have been lost without him.

We were on our way to Las Vegas and Alex fell asleep. After two hours, I stopped to ask if he was hungry and he said "No." We continued on and I remember calling my husband to tell him that this was THE quietest trip EVER with the Bronx Bomber. Little did I know, he was unconscious. As we approached Primm, Nevada, I tried to wake him up and he wouldn't. I panicked a little and took the next exit. I parked the car and tried to revive him with no luck. It seemed to me that he was trying to wake up, but could not. With the last episode less than 6 weeks prior, I didn't hesitate for a minute.

I called 9-1-1. We had to wait about 20 minutes for an ambulance that drove out from Vegas. A man just back from Iraq and a former combat medic, took Alex's vital signs and we were OK until the ambulance arrived. They took us to St. Rose of the Dominican Hospital which has a neuro unit and a neurologist on staff.

Shortly after we arrived, Dr. Stiller, Dr. Monsell and Dr. Paul Wallace (Chief Ringside Physician for the California Boxing Commission) came to the hospital. That was when Alex was fully into a seizure and the three doctors, along with the ER physician saw what happened and were confident that they now knew what kind of seizures he was having, making it much easier to treat. Bottom line is that Alex will be fine with anti-seizure medication and his life will improve dramatically. We now know that he has suffered multiple seizures and at least three very serious seizures and with the appropriate medical supervision, he can live a normal life, relatively free of complications from seizures. He hates the hospital, but he kinda likes all the nurses...not enough to stay, though!

I cannot find the words to thank Drs. John Stiller, Ray Monsell and Paul Wallace adequately. They are compassionate, caring physicians who love the sport of boxing and would do anything to protect the athlete. Boxing is in good hands with these guys looking out for the athletes!

Alex is grateful for the treatment he received and for the attention paid by the doctors from AAPRP, the RBF Medical Advisory Board and St. Rose of the Dominican Hospital. He is also grateful for the prayers that have come his way and he is totally humbled by the outpouring of love and prayers. THANK YOU. As you would imagine, this has been very scary for Alex and for me too. Alex has too much work to do and I'm sayin' "Look out world" cause the Bronx Bomber is back. We're here for the fighters who need a hand up.

That's how the RBF rolls!

Thanks, Henry

Ron Lipton
10-21-2008, 03:51 PM
Thank God he has the right medication now, he is a great guy and I pray for him to be well. I feel so bad for him to have to go through such an ordeal.

Randy Gordon
11-09-2008, 06:22 PM
A 28-year-old fighter, at the top of his game and on his way to the International Boxing Hall of Fame, was having dinner with me three nights before his rematch against the only man he had not beaten as a professional. At that time, I was a promoter, and was promoting his fight against the man he was DQ'd against five months earlier for hitting him after knocking him down.

I asked the fighter, "Do you have any thoughts about retiring?" The fighter took a sip of his water and replied, "I plan on winning this one, then perhaps one or two other fights, then getting out. You won't see me hang around after my skills erode."

"How will you know it's time to get out?" I asked. "Historically, fighters rarely ever know when to get out."

The fighter placed a hand on my shoulder, smiled and said, "Believe me, I'll know when that time comes. In fact, I'll know the answer long before anybody ever gets to see that day." Part of me believed him. Part of me didn't. As I said, fighters rarely know when that time comes.

Three nights after that dinner, Roy Jones Jr. pummelled Montel Griffin inside the first round, and later playfully said to me, "I guess it's not time for me to retire yet."

Well, here we are, 11 years after having dinner with Roy Jones Jr. I was the promoter of that fight, and got to witness, firsthand, a truly great fighter on a truly great night.

For many of his subsequent fights, he entered the ring to rap music, much of which he wrote, much of which he sang, er, rapped.

After his back-to-back-to-back losses to two men (Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson in 1993-1994), Jones rapped some lyrics entitled, "Ya' Musta' Forgot." Oh, how quick we were to bust on him for losing...for being knocked out...even for moving up to take the heavyweight title from yawn-inducing John Ruiz.

"Ya'all Musta' Forgot," he told us, over and over. "Ya'all Musta' Forgot."

It would have been nice to see Jones recapture his youth and hand Joe Calzaghe the first defeat of his career last Saturday, much in the same way Bernard Hopkins sent Kelly Pavlik's "OH" to the graveyard of undefeated records a few weeks earlier. And in the first round, when Calzaghe went down, friends of mine who were big Jones' fans called my voice mail screaming "Jones is back! Roy Jones is back!" However, the once-great finisher only was a young Roy Jones for an instant, and let Calzaghe get back into the fight. And when he did, it was over. There would be no Hopkins'-like magic for Jones at The Garden. A Jones-Hopkins rematch, talked about since their first fight in 1993, would remain just that--talk. No sense, no reason, no purpose for having it now. No sense, no reason, no purpose for having it anywhere but in discussions and debates with other boxing fans on the phone, on trains, at parties, at pubs, at lunch with the guys or here on the CBZ.

What it lost to Father Time is lost forever, and cannot be gotten back. Roy Jones, a proud but beaten man, learned that lesson the hard way, desperately trying to roll back years, but facing not only undefeated Joe Calzaghe, but long undefeated Father Time, as well.

Roy Jones should have known you can't beat Father Time.

He must've forgot.

-Randy G.

HE Grant
11-11-2008, 08:20 PM
Nice piece Randy. The first hand stories are terrific .... Hopefully Roy gets out now ... I cannot see him making big money again ... it is really amazing considering his losses that he was able to even have this fight ... part of it he owes to Hopkins since many thought/hoped Jones could replicate Hopkins late career success, actually giving him a chance ... that plus the doubts that still remain about Cal ... whatever, as long as he is not physically hurt it is hard for me to feel bad for anyone making that much money in today's world ...

hawk5ins
11-19-2008, 04:31 PM
rather than taking on Pavlik.

I got to think that this decision worked out in Calzaghe's favor here. He was pretty much given a whole lot of grief for taking on Jones, a Shot fighter, for MORE money, than Pavlik, who was considered far more dangerous for less money.

WHen Pavlik got undressed by Hopkins, I don't think anyone thought THEN that Pavlik was NEARLY as formidible as once thought. And that going for the bigger purse in Jones was the right move.

Of course as Evan points out here, Hopkins' win gave many the beleif that Jones COULD duplicate what Bernard did and then set up a Hopkins Jones rematch.

So with that thought process, I'm almost wondering if the shift from beleiving Pavilk was more dangerous to JONES being the bigger threat to Cal, was almost complete.

Given Jones was pretty much done, waiting on Roy and HOPING he'd still be a viable money fight and instead going through with Pavlik first, in hindsight, seems like it would have been a bad move for Joe.

I think, while the win over Jones doesn't enhance Cal's legacy, it was a very nice payday that probably wouldn't have been there had he taken on Kelly first. And given the exposure Bernard showed us about Pavlik, I think it makes little sense for anyone who still thinks Joe C. isn't all that and a bag of chip, to say Joe AVOIDED Pavlik in favor of Jones. Or that he avoided a fight he could have lost. I don't think anyone thinks that.....do they?

It was a sound move by Joe.

Golf clap for him from me.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
11-26-2008, 05:22 PM
It is with heavy heart I relate to you some awful news I heard a few hours ago: Referee Toby Gibson has died. According to a source, Gibson's wife found him unconscious in their garage on Monday night. Emergency efforts to revive him failed. It is not clear whether he died of natural causes or by asphyxiation.

If it was suicide, Gibson joins two other Nevada referees--Mitch Halpern and Richard Green--whose lives ended in the same manner.

A story by Steve Carp on Gibson's passing appears in the Nov. 26 edition of the Las Vegas Review Journal.

Gibson, a referee since 1985, had officiated for such notables as Sam Peter, Kelly Pavlik, Roy Jones, Jermaine Taylor, Michael Carbajal, Butterbean, Bernard Hopkins, Michael Moorer and Tommy Morrison.

Last Saturday night, Gibson worked the undercard to Ricky Hatton-Paulie Malignaggi, including Matthew Hatton (Ricky's younger brother) against Ben Tackie.

I knew Gibson as a fun-loving, life-loving man, and shared a table with him the last two years at the International Boxing Hall of Fame Dinner in Canastota. He told me he was working on learning how to referee Mixed Martial Arts bouts, which are frequently held by the UFC in Nevada.

Our deepest condolences go to his wife and children.

-Randy G.

Kyoodle
11-27-2008, 12:26 AM
Wow, this is shocking news, Randy.

What the hell is it about Vegas and boxing refs that has led to three different tragedies?

R.I.P. to Toby and God Bless his family.

Kyoodle

Randy Gordon
12-05-2008, 01:58 PM
Every time a boxing match comes our way on PPV, I:
A) Always hope for a great fight and
B) Buy it, sucker that I am.

Judging by the things people have said to me in the gym, at Sirius Radio and from the callers to my show, the Oscar de la Hoya-Manny Pacquaio fight had better be an action-packed thriller, free from any controversy. If it's not, PPV boxing as we know it will fade off into the sunset--if it isn't fading already.

Despite Pacquaio's #1 PFP rating, there are some--make that many--who believe he is just too small to be a legitimate threat to ODLH.

Not that any of them are "experts." But they are more than "experts." They are fans, just like all of us are. They hear the talk and know that ODLH is a businessman first and a fighter second.

"Why doesn't de la Hoya go after Antonio Margarito?" is a question they keep hearing.

The most common answer is, "Because an Antonio Margarito fight is one which de la Hoya may not win."

Then why Manny Pacquaio, the #1 PFP fighter in the world?

The most common answer is, "Because a Pacquaio fight is one that de la Hoya believes he can win, despite Pacquaio's lofty status." The reality is, Pacquaio is a good little man moving up to fight a good big man. Look up boxing history and see what happens when good little men take on good big men. It's usually, as my friend and former colleague, Sal Marchiano used to say on ESPN Boxing, "Goodnight Sweet Prince" for the good LITTLE" man.

If de la Hoya is to win this, I hope it's in a close and competitive but truly deserved decision. The worst case scenario is for de la Hoya to blast Pacquaio out in the first or second round. In that case, de la Hoya, Pac-Man and HBO PPV all will be laughing straight to the bank, while we subtract $50 from our bank accounts and blog away angrily here on the CBZ, saying things like "I will never buy another PPV fight again." And many of us won't.

I, for one, said I was through after de la Hoya's lackluster performance against Floyd Mayweather. I paid to see both guys do their best to come out a winner. I saw that in Mayweather. I didn't see it in de la Hoya. Then, months later came the talk of a Mayweather-de la Hoya rematch. To that one I said "No way." Not for $1 was I going to buy another Mayweather-ODLH match. I figured I'd catch it the following week on cable.

But this fight is different. At least I think it's different. Pacquaio is not Mayweather. Totally different fighting style. And different styles make for different fights. I think it'll make for a very exciting fight.

Pac-Man will give it his all, which will force ODLH to shift into a higher gear. And that shifting into a higher gear as Pac-Man comes in throwing will make for an exciting fight, one I believe will be worth paying for.

My pick is Oscar de la Hoya to win it by decision, as I am sticking with my good big man vs. good little man theory.

But, through it all, I think we'll see, not two or three action rounds, but 12 of them. If that happens, those of us who shelled out the bucks to see the fight will be thrilled. It may even entice those who have walked away from the sport to come back.

And, Heaven forbid, it turns into a quick ODLH KO or a 12-round stinker win for ODLH, we can kiss PPV goodbye.

Maybe even what remains of the sport, too.

Let's hope for something great.

-Randy G.

HE Grant
12-05-2008, 07:12 PM
If Oscar has anything left I cannot help but see him blast Paq out early ... with all respect to Manny , he is very hitable. I never was into this fight as I really cannot stand how Oscar manipulates the game at this point. I really hope Manny pulls it off as I am so sick of Oscar's act. He's been a great fighter and a credit to the game but for the past few years he jerks everyone's chain like Ray Leonard used to and it irritates ...

Randy Gordon
12-14-2008, 06:40 AM
I realize promoter Dan Goossen's job is to secure a title fight for his heavyweight pretenders, er, contenders, two of whom are named Chris "The Nipple" Arreola and James "Flickering Lights" Toney. But the thought of either one of them against one of the Klitschko Brothers, be it Big Klit or Little Klit, is a scary thought. So, Goossen should do the next best thing: Match the two heavyweight porkers against each other.

And if they won't fight each other, he can have them face each other in an all-out "Breakfast Buffet Eat-off." I can see each of them wolfing down pounds and pounds of pancakes, French Toast, eggs, sausages, bacon, buttered toast, hash browns, waffles with whipped cream and, of course, breakfast enchiladas. In this kind of matchup, you'd see the absolute best of both Arreola and Toney. They'd even train hard for this, I am sure, probably doing a minimum of 10 meals a day for two months before the big showdown.

Arreola vs. Toney in a food gorging contest. Now, that's a great thought! They wouldn't even need napkins! I'm sure both would fight until carried away from the table. In this fight, you'd see the greatness of both men, I am sure.

That's a dream fight I'd pay to watch!

-Randy G.

P.S.--It could be shown on the "Food Network." Any thoughts on commentators? How about Mike Katz and Tony Tubbs or Joe Hipp?

hawk5ins
12-14-2008, 09:20 AM
You may have ruined breakfast for me forever.

Hakw

10-8
12-14-2008, 11:08 AM
If the food is free, I want the winner.

hawk5ins
01-25-2009, 02:46 PM
any input on how things look to be shaping up for 2009?

I think Mosley's win over Margarito really opens up a slew of potential matchups that will be great to watch and look forward to and ultimately be great for our sport that was agian taken off Life support.

Pac's win over Oscar has set him up for a bout with Hatton, that while I have little doubt who wins, it still will be entertaining while it lasts.

Of course this sets up a match with Mayweather if he comes back whihc will be gi-normous.

AM's loss sets up attractive rematches with Shane and Cotto and Cotto and Margarito.

I could see Williams dropping back in and striking while the Iron is hot as well in taking AM on agian should he grab a belt.

I don't see Shane and Pac happening, but Shane and Floyd?

Seemed like a way too late to happen now, fight Yesterday morning, but now it has a very attractive ring to it.

How long will Shane be able to hold onto this fountain of youth.

Can Berto throw his hat in the ring and be interesting? He sure looked pretty average last weekend.

It seems like "all of a sudden", things got interesting in the boxing world.

Thoughts?

Hawk

Randy Gordon
01-29-2009, 07:45 AM
Thanks, Hawk, but I haven't been gone from this site...just nutsy-busy what with my show on Sirius Radio, my Personal Training business, working on my novel, "Class Reunion," running around with family and a small thing like getting everything in order for my son's wedding. But I've been checking up on things here at the CBZ regularly.

So many things to talk about, and I certainly want to answer your question about Shane Mosley's huge win over Antonio Margarito.

First, though, I just want to express my deepest condolences to the families of those boxing people who have passed in the last few weeks, most notably two men who were very kind to me over the years, Howie Albert & Jose Torres.

Both lived their lives with class & always went out of their way for others. You can't ask for more than that from any individual. It was Jose whom I replaced at the helm of the NYSAC, and from day one, he let me know that if I needed him in any way, he'd be there with advice. During my first week in his seat, he sat in front of his former desk & told me who was who in the NYSAC. He told me of a major leak (stool pigeon) in the commission & warned me about the individual. I eventually set the creep up & fired him. A day later, Torres called to say, "Congratulations. You did something I should have done a long time ago. The NYSAC & boxing in general is better off without him."

But the boxing world is not better off without Albert & Torres. They really will be missed.

* * * *

I look forward to a Pac-Man-Hatton fight. I was bummed when I heard the bout had fallen apart a few weeks ago, but was told by sources not to worry, that Pac-Man will come around & demand a bit less money. It was true. Not we await what most likely will turn into a candidate for "Fight of the Year."

I have no interest in seeing either a PBF v Pac-Man or PBF-Hatton II fight. Nor do I have any interest of seeing another boxing match in which one of the participants is named Oscar de la Hoya.

I would like to see Miguel Cotto & Antonio Margarito get together for a rematch, with the winner to face Mosley.

You can also drop Paul Williams back to 147 & throw him into the mix, along with Andre Berto.

Mosley vs. Pac-Man. Hmm. A bit too far down the road to think seriously about. Let Pac-Man dispatch of Hatton first, then we'll talk Mosley-Pac. There's also Mosley-PBF. I like that. Give me the Mosley who dismembered Margarito & you've got something.

I wonder how long Mosley can perform at this level. Remember, he's pushing 38 & has a lot of big names breathing in his face. Sooner or later it's inevitable that Father Time will catch up with him.

Back to Andre Berto for a second. There's no question he's good, but listen carefully...do you hear a groundswell of public clamoring for a Mosley-Berto match? No! Especially not after Berto struggled against Luis Collazzo.

So, here are the matches, in order, I'd like to see for Mosley:

He vs. PBF
He vs. the winner of Margarito-Cotto
He vs. Pac-Man
He vs. Williams
He vs. Berto

Sorry I've been off my thread for over a month. I promise...it won't happen again.

Love you guys!

-Randy G.

P.S.--To Ron Lipton, thanks for the kind words on your radio appearance. I'm telling you, if Sirius Radio comes through with the boxing show we've been talking about, you're gonna' host with me. (The show I do now is a wildly-popular MMA show--go figure!).

Ron Lipton
01-30-2009, 10:11 PM
My pleasure Randy,

I was just telling the truth about your efforts as a Commissioner.

Anytime you need me for your show, it would be my honor.

best,

Ron

doomeddisciple
02-01-2009, 12:19 AM
Now THAT would be a great show!

Ron Lipton
02-01-2009, 02:09 AM
It would be and thanks.

We both know a lot about the inside and out of boxing and have done some great fights together and both remembe the fights from the old Garden like it was yesterday.

It would be fun.

the wonderful 134
02-15-2009, 05:36 PM
Randy

I watched the Nate Cambell fight the other night and I have a question regarding scales. When I was in school I was on the wrestling team, before each season the scales we used to weigh- in for the matches was certified by the Bureau of Weights & Measures. They were only certified that once, and by the end of the season they might not have been as accurate as they were in the beginning of the season. The scales used for the weigh-ins for major bouts, are they certified before every bout? What is the criteria for scale certification?

Thank You
134

Randy Gordon
02-22-2009, 11:19 PM
Wonderful: Most commissions, as told to me by the commissioners of each of the states which have such agencies, do have an "official" scale within the commission office. The scale in the office of the New York State Athletic Commission is a relic...a piece of American history. It is a Fairbanks (ever hear the old expression, "He tipped the Fairbanks at..."?) that dates back to the 1930's. It is made of wood and brass, and the plate on which the fighters step on is 100% brass. That plate is oxidized except for the area on which the fighters place their feet. The sweat, salt and oils from their bodies has kept the area on which they step free from oxidation and still a shiny, brass color. During my years as commissioner, we used to have a member from the Bureau of Weights and Measures come in at least once per year to balance and adjust the scale, which remained in a corner of the "Weigh-in Room," untouched until the day of the weigh-in. The only ones who could operate the scale were official members of the fulltime NYSAC staff at my direction. In the early 1990's, I got actor Robert DeNiro special permission to use the scale for a weigh-in scene for his movie "Night and the City." For his 24-hours of use of the scale, DeNiro insured the scale for $1 million and put round-the-clock security guards around it, as if it were the Mona Lisa. When he returned it, he had the Bureau of Weights and Measures come in to re-balance it. When we had fights out of New York City, say in upstate New York or out on Long Island, we were forced to use the scale from the facility where the fight was taking place. On many occasions, we used either weights or bags of flour to try to balance the scale as best we could. Other commissions do basically the same thing. I would be surprised (and it takes a lot to surprise me!) if some commission merely dredged up a bathroom scale and had a fighter step on it and announced the weight as "official."

So, the next time you see a fighter stepping on a scale at the official weigh-in, you can rest assured that scale has been balanced and is on-the-money accurate to less than 1/10 of a pound. If a fighter is overweight, it's his fault and his trainer's fault. I always hated when a fighter said something like, "How can I be 10 pounds over? I made weight when I stepped on the scale at my gym this morning." Yeh. Right!

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
02-23-2009, 05:00 PM
What the fighter failed to mention was that with no one standing on his scale in his gym, the needle was 10 pounds to the left of "0".

I have that same scale at home. Makes me feel good every time I step on it and it says 185.

Hawk

walshb
02-23-2009, 05:09 PM
Wonderful: Most commissions, as told to me by the commissioners of each of the states which have such agencies, do have an "official" scale within the commission office. The scale in the office of the New York State Athletic Commission is a relic...a piece of American history. It is a Fairbanks (ever hear the old expression, "He tipped the Fairbanks at..."?) that dates back to the 1930's. It is made of wood and brass, and the plate on which the fighters step on is 100% brass. That plate is oxidized except for the area on which the fighters place their feet. The sweat, salt and oils from their bodies has kept the area on which they step free from oxidation and still a shiny, brass color. During my years as commissioner, we used to have a member from the Bureau of Weights and Measures come in at least once per year to balance and adjust the scale, which remained in a corner of the "Weigh-in Room," untouched until the day of the weigh-in. The only ones who could operate the scale were official members of the fulltime NYSAC staff at my direction. In the early 1990's, I got actor Robert DeNiro special permission to use the scale for a weigh-in scene for his movie "Night and the City." For his 24-hours of use of the scale, DeNiro insured the scale for $1 million and put round-the-clock security guards around it, as if it were the Mona Lisa. When he returned it, he had the Bureau of Weights and Measures come in to re-balance it. When we had fights out of New York City, say in upstate New York or out on Long Island, we were forced to use the scale from the facility where the fight was taking place. On many occasions, we used either weights or bags of flour to try to balance the scale as best we could. Other commissions do basically the same thing. I would be surprised (and it takes a lot to surprise me!) if some commission merely dredged up a bathroom scale and had a fighter step on it and announced the weight as "official."

So, the next time you see a fighter stepping on a scale at the official weigh-in, you can rest assured that scale has been balanced and is on-the-money accurate to less than 1/10 of a pound. If a fighter is overweight, it's his fault and his trainer's fault. I always hated when a fighter said something like, "How can I be 10 pounds over? I made weight when I stepped on the scale at my gym this morning." Yeh. Right!

-Randy G.
Fascinating. Man, you would think that in the 21st Century there would
be some sort of change or improvement. Has the NYSAC ever heard of the
transistor? It's been around a while apparently, and allows very acurate measurement for a number of devices. Something to do with TECHNOLOGY:D

hawk5ins
02-23-2009, 07:14 PM
As an aside here, but related to weights, what was your impression of Weight Gate down in DC involving Spinks and Mustafa.

I know you were with the Ring at that time, but don't recall if you had any input on the coverage of the non event.

Laziness is preventing me from digging into my collection.

Hawk

Ron Lipton
02-23-2009, 10:28 PM
Would love to hear Randy's take on that one.

I knew both guys pretty good and their corners too. I used to punch the heavy bag in Eddie Mustapha's home in West Orange with him, and played many games of ping pong with Slim Spinks in training camp.

The films of the tensions after that happened were as good as the fight would have been. Butch, Eddie, Mike and the rest got into it like you would not believe, remember the footage, very. very tense atmosphere.

I thought for sure the fight would have gone on, but it did not.

hawk5ins
03-09-2009, 05:02 PM
Ah I went and made this Question it's own thread.

Hawk

mrbig1
03-09-2009, 08:59 PM
As an aside here, but related to weights, what was your impression of Weight Gate down in DC involving Spinks and Mustafa.

I know you were with the Ring at that time, but don't recall if you had any input on the coverage of the non event.

Laziness is preventing me from digging into my collection.

Hawk
I want to hear that as well.

Randy Gordon
03-11-2009, 03:01 PM
Boy, you guys are taxing the memory on this one. For sure I know I don't have all the facts down.

I do remember that Michael Spinks & Eddie Mustafa Muhammad had fought before, in the Summer of 1981, and Spinks won a 15-round decision over Muhammad that day. A few years later, the two were to go at it again, I believe in Washington, DC.

Spinks was still light heavyweight champ and the fight was for Spinks' LH title, so both guys had to make the LH limit of 175 pounds. I remember Eddie getting on the scale and seeing it go over. I believe it was to 177. Spinks' manager, Butch Lewis, quickly shouted, "Two pounds. You gotta' lose two pounds!" We all figured Eddie would then go and do that. Incredibly, he said, "This scale is not right. Somebody's been messing with this scale...I'm not losing one ounce, much less two pounds." He motioned to his camp and off they went, back to Eddie's room.

Bert Sugar, thinking quick, ran into the kitchen of the hotel where the weigh-in was taking place and came out with a few bags of flour. I don't remember the weight of each bag. But they were sealed, unopened bags. Bert placed them upon the scale. It registered exactly the weight on the bags, showing the scale to be accurate.

By this time, Eddie was back in his room. We contacted him, but he said it was too late--he had already consumed some food. He said he didn't trust Butch Lewis and that he firmly believed games were being played with the scale. Nothing we said could convince him, otherwise.

I do remember Bert writing an editorial on "Weight Gate," but like Hawkins, haven't had a chance to look it up--in the "Randy G. Boxing Library"--for a check of that editorial and a detailed report of what went on that day.

I'm sure when I do read Bert's editorial, it'll all come back as if the incident happened yesterday.

-Randy G.

mrbig1
03-12-2009, 08:11 AM
You see I'm getting old. I thought Ring magizine said the scales where off. Not the first time I got stuff wrong.

sweetsci
03-14-2009, 09:40 AM
MrBig1, I too thought that Ring said the scales were off. I no longer have the issue to confirm it. When I read Randy's post I just assumed I'd remembered incorrectly.

Randy Gordon
03-14-2009, 09:59 AM
Hey guys, in my opening line in said, "For sure I know I don't have all the facts down." For this one I reached deep into the abyss that is my memory and came up with what I remember. I do recall Bert getting hold of those sacks of flour and gently placing them on the scale. While I seem to recall the scale being accurate, that might not be the case. Later tonight, when I have ore than a few minutes, I will search through my bound volumes of The Ring and see what I can come up with.

Normally, my long term memory is okay--it's my short term memory that's gone. What did I have for dinner last night? But not having sharp recall on a boxing-related event I was in attendance for? That scares me.

I'll be sure later to search for The Ring which carried that story.

If I remember!

-Randy G.

mrbig1
03-14-2009, 01:22 PM
Here's what I remember. Keep in mind I'm old and like Mr. Gordon don't know what happen yesterday. Bert Sugar went to the kitchen and got a bag of gold metel flour, then called the manufacturer to confirm the weight. He puts the five pound bag of flour on the scales and came up with 7 pounds or something like that.

sweetsci
03-15-2009, 03:17 AM
Hey Randy,

I'm not faulting you one bit. It's fantastic having you here. We all have loads of information in our heads and we can't remember everything. I assumed I was remembering incorrectly, then when I saw MrBig1's comment I thought I'd chime in, figuring that someone here would have that issue and confirm what was actually printed.

Isn't it just amazing that we can come here and talk with someone who was there about the weigh-in to a cancelled-at-the-last-minute boxing match from almost 26 years ago!

mrbig1
03-15-2009, 09:24 AM
Mr. Gordon has forgotten more about our sport then I'll ever know. So it's great to pick his brain and get the story behide the story. I enjoyed Mr.Gordon very much when he worked for the USA network.

Randy Gordon
03-15-2009, 02:56 PM
Thanks for the kind words, Big, but not remembering every detail of an event I was at (Spinks-Muhammad "Weight Gate") really pisses me off. Guess the old synapses are not firing like they used to. Gotta' ease up working out the body and get back to playing some more chess! Hey, the Klitschkos play and so does Lennox Lewis--at a very high level.

-Randy G.

mrbig1
03-15-2009, 10:05 PM
Sir, with your resume I can not believe you're not in the boxing HOF. We here at CBZ have to do something about that.

hawk5ins
03-16-2009, 05:38 PM
THIS is the issue that carried the story.

I myself can't find it (Oh to be organized!), but recall that there was some dispute as to the weight of the packaging that carried the flour and if that might have accounted for descrepencies.

http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Image:83Sep.jpg

Hawk

Randy Gordon
03-16-2009, 08:18 PM
Hawk: I have bound volumes of The Ring going way back, but, alas, none of that issue. So, I put in a call to Bert Sugar, to see what he remembers about the incident. Now, I await his return call (which he's pretty good at).

Mrbig1: I don't know what to say except, Thank you. I am humbled beyond description at your kindest of words. I am just like you guys, a tremendous lover of boxing who just happened to be fortunate enough to land a few nice boxing-related jobs, enough so that I was able to make a career out of it. Again, thank you.

-Randy G.

doomeddisciple
03-16-2009, 09:53 PM
G'day Randy,

Quick question on your thoughts on the refereeing performance on the recent UFC card on the brown/Sell fight - I was wondering if the MMA fraternity have any kind of post-match review of their performance from an officiating point of view, did you discuss this on your radio show?

Kind regards,
Josh

10-8
03-16-2009, 10:25 PM
THIS is the issue that carried the story.

I myself can't find it (Oh to be organized!), but recall that there was some dispute as to the weight of the packaging that carried the flour and if that might have accounted for descrepencies.

http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Image:83Sep.jpg

HawkI have the issue at my disposal Hawk. What do you want to know?

Randy Gordon
03-16-2009, 10:48 PM
Josh: Although boxing and MMA are two different animals, refereeing a boxing match and an MMA fight are really quite similar. A referee is there to enforce the rules and to protect the fighters. I have long said that the judges hold the livelihood of the fighters in their hands, while the referee holds the life of each fighter in his. When a referee makes a decision, he should stick with it. If a fighter gets nailed with a hard shot, it's up to the ref to make a quick decision: Does he stop the fight or does he allow it to continue? If he elects to let it go, he must watch the situation closely and be ready to react as soon as he feels the time calls for a stoppage. If he elects to stop the fight because one fighter is hurt, he can't be slow about stopping it, then change his mind and allow the fight to continue, only to stop the fight moments later when that fighter gets stricken again. In some instances, both fighters will be giving and taking plenty, making the ref's decision plemty tough. I know Ron Lipton has found himself in some tough spots, but has always pulled the trigger on a stoppage just at the right time. It's a feeling that can be discussed over and over again at seminars, but cannot truly be taught. Either a referee has it or he doesn't. To me, our resident ref, Ron Lipton, has that natural, inborn feeling and ability.

At UFC 96, it was frightening to see what Matt Brown was dropping on poor, frozen Pete Sell. Brown actually turned to usually-reliable Yves Lavigne and begged him to stop the fight (remember Muhammad Ali doing that in a few of his fights?), but Lavigne allowed it to go on. Then he waved it off, only to quickly reverese himself and allow the fight to continue. Moments later he mercifully ended the contest with Sell a battered, beaten fighter.

We have spent a lot of time on my Sirius Radio show taking calls about this particular stoppage, and, as of last Friday, I told myself I wouldn't beat the subject into the ground any longer.

I suppose the more fights a ref does the better he gets, but, at the same time,the more fights a ref does, the more opportunities he is given to make one bad call. Hopefully, a ref NEVER makes a MAJOR bad call, because, as I pointed out earlier, a referee holds the fighter's life in his hands. One major blunder can be fatal, so the hope is that, when a referee makes a blunder, it's a minor one.

I have watched Yves Lavigne referee dozens upon dozens of fights. He normally is an extremely competent referee. Let's hope the blunder in the Matt Brown-Pete Sell match was the only major blunder we'll ever see in another match from Lavigne or any other ref, be it MMA or boxing.

-Randy G.

mrbig1
03-17-2009, 10:04 PM
I seem to remember Matthew Saad Muhammad says the scales where wrong with his first fight with Dwight Qawi. In fact he blame the weight loss for his defeat. Just a little FYI.

hawk5ins
03-23-2009, 10:11 AM
Finally ran accross the issue.

The Flour 'test' was showing the Scales being off (Sorry Randy! Guess we have to ship a supply of "Brain Power" pills to you! If the supply is short, it's because I scarfed some for myself!).

What I found so odd was the bags that were used. A 36 pound sack, consisting of TWO 18 pound bags?

There was some debate (as I scarcely recalled) about the bags being the difference of the weight read on the scale (the sack weighed in at 39 and 1/2 pounds. And then there were calls into Pillsbury to verify the weight of the packaging (whihc Pillsbury had a 1.5 pounds).

What I find odd and over complicated about all of this was why not grab another scale from a dressing room to see if there were large disparities in either the weight of the fighters or the bags of flour?

If the scale was OFF for Eddie (and for the Flour), surely another scale used, even if not expertly calibrated by the Division of Weights and Measures, could have lended in just how off it was. Heck, get a third scale as well and try to get it correct.

The Flour "test" and only using the scale in question, while good for the article, just leaves to much "open" for doubt to me.

Bert, jump on a bathroom scale and if you come in at 175 (a guess!) on that scale and something similar on a second Bathroom scale, and then you jump on the Official scale and it reads 177.5.....then YES, I think we can see the Official scale is off.

This would seem less complicated than going and getting some flour from the store as "some fool reporter" did! (Yes, I'm directly quoting Bert's article! HA!)

Actually, the BEST part of unearthing this magazine was reading an interview with SRL. This exchange was PRICELESS!

Ring: And no misgivings about your decision to retire?

Ray Leonard: No, I knew once the decision was made it would never bother me. You see, I've never dwelt on adulation.

I nearly fell off my chair after reading that line!

Priceless!

Hawk

mrbig1
03-23-2009, 12:33 PM
Good job brother Hawk. I turned 54 yesterday. So it's good to know I've lost all my marbles.

hawk5ins
03-23-2009, 12:48 PM
Good that you HAVE lost all your marbles?

HA!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
03-23-2009, 01:26 PM
I told you the details of "Weight Gate" were not clear with me. I do actually remembering trying to get Eddie--a longtime friend of mine--back to the scales while Bert did his "flour thing." However, Eddie said he knew he had made weight and was of the opinion that no matter what he did, Butch Lewis, the man behind Michael Spinks, had too much political pull with the sanctioning body and that he (Eddie) would not be given a fair shake in the fight, so he was not going back again.

"I made weight and those scales were off," Eddie said to me. I guess the rest is sketchy in my mind because I was not with Bert when he put those bags of flour on the scale. I was able to pick up the rest when I returned to "the scene of the crime" minutes later.

I wish the fight had taken place, because I really wanted to see a Spinks-Muhammad rematch.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
03-23-2009, 03:57 PM
I was very very dissapointed it never came off.

I truly wanted to see what would have happened with Eddie making 175 a bit easier than when he tried to squeeze his 200 plus frame from the Snipes bouts, back into a 175 pound fighter in almost exactly 2 mos as it was.

Not saying Spinks doesn;t always win a matchup between the two, but Eddie would have given himself a much better chance had he not been trying for such a dramatic weight loss.

Certainly a "what if" moment that has left us all pondering things.

Hawk

mrbig1
03-23-2009, 10:13 PM
Good that you HAVE lost all your marbles?

HA!

Hawk
I do know I have at least 2 brain cells left and one of them is sick.

Ron Lipton
03-25-2009, 12:24 AM
I know Ron Lipton has found himself in some tough spots, but has always pulled the trigger on a stoppage just at the right time. It's a feeling that can be discussed over and over again at seminars, but cannot truly be taught. Either a referee has it or he doesn't. To me, our resident ref, Ron Lipton, has that natural, inborn feeling and ability.


Reply: Thanks Commish, much appreciated. You taught me well.

Ron

Randy Gordon
03-29-2009, 06:28 PM
Last Friday, Samuel Peter demonstrated in what kind of condition a fighter should NOT come into the ring in. He was 230 pounds of muscle & 35 pounds of blubber. You just had to know that if Eddie Chambers, not Mr. Olympia-looking fighter himself, could keep him chin off one of Peter's early-round bombs, he'd come on strong to win. That's basically what happened.

Peter reminds me of a vastly-wasted heavyweight talent from the 1980's ("Which one?" you ask). James Broad is the answer. Broad was a guy who loved to eat, and it showed. In the hours before his fight against Tim Witherspoon, Broad consumed one BOX of Dunkin' Donuts. Every one. The lard-laden Broad went out in the first round against "Terrible Tim," himself another wasted talent.

Ya' know, there's a whole list of 1980's heavyweights who wasted their talents and abilities by focusing their attention on something other than boxing.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
03-30-2009, 09:51 AM
Placing Peter on the same level of James Broad IMO is spot on.

Many of the Tubby Boys of the 80's at the very least showed a Moment or two in their careers where upon reflection, you see that they probably wasted what they COULD have made of themselves had they simply had the discipline, dedication and focus of a true athlete or warrior.

Peter, and many of the contender level heavies out there on the landscape today, haven;t to ME at least, shown those eye opener moments agianst a quality fighter where you say to yourself, "He could be something if he got his act together".

Certainly Peter, with better discipline, could have been a fine fighter and in this era, have risen to the top had he REALLY wanted to. But like a James Broad level fighter, even at his BEST, he's only going to go So far.

I honestly beleive the difference with today and the 80's, is that our expectations TODAY are SO LOW, that with any amount of servicable perfomances within the Heavyweight division, we pretty much fool ourselves into seeing something that probably isn't really there.

Having seen MANY of the heavies in the 80's (and I am taking a Holmes and a Tyson, two the divisions' greats, OUT of this equation), develop and fight on tv as amateurs, you saw at young ages the potential they had. And many of them early in their careers, had themselves in shape and you saw their pro potential. And later on when they had experience under their belts, prior to their belts disappearing from sight, you saw a performance or two that had you beleiving and EXPECTING, them to become a good solid to very good and on some occasions, even an exceptional fighter.

But it was never enough times or for long enough, to ever give them the credit for something they helped cheat themselves from never achieving.

Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda is a lame Exscuse. And you don't get credit in my book on potential or more to the point "potential, lost potential".

Today however, I'm not even seeing the Coulda's Woulda's and or Shoulda's.

And that IMO is even MORE depressing.

Hawk

Sharkey
03-30-2009, 10:46 AM
I used to call Peter "Mercer Lite". More accurate might be Obed Sullivan with Power.

Didn't James Broad happliy accept a gift of a box of ring dings from Al Bernstein during an interview or something like that?

Randy Gordon
03-30-2009, 12:13 PM
Sharks: The offering of candy to James "Broadass" Broad came in a September 1982 broadcast on ESPN from the Sands Hotel in Atlantic City. I believe Broad's opponent was Randy Mack. Only the month before, Broad had fought on ESPN and told the audience, "I will be a lot lighter in my next fight." Well, the Mack fight was his next fight and Broad WAS lighter--one-quarter of a pound lighter. So, the afternoon before the fight, I took a walk on the Boardwalk to the story which sold fudge and salt water taffy. I bought James a box of fudge. In the post-fight interview, I handed him the box, saying it was a gift from my broadcast partner, Sal Marchiano, and myself. He took the box with a chuckle, but after the telecast, went off on me at ringside.

The next day, while in my office at Ring Magazine, I received a call from the show's matchmaker, Teddy Brenner. He blasted me for my gift to Broad, calling it an "insult to this world-class athlete."

From there, Broad's weight basically hovered around the same thing: 245 pounds. But after a decision loss to Marvis Frazier about a year later, Broad's attitude went from bad to worse, and his weight headed upwards. I believe his final weight, in a fight he lost in 1993, was around 290 pounds, a weight he "trained down to" from over 300 pounds. When he died in 2001, his weight was hovering between 350 and 400 pounds.

Wasted talent. Most definitely. And a very sad story.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
03-30-2009, 12:29 PM
At LEAST Mercer had a Morrison moment.

Heck I'd settle for a Bert Cooper Moment from Peter.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
03-30-2009, 12:35 PM
Hawk: I understand where you are coming from when you say you don't count potential or potential lost into a fighter's greatness. I mean, you really have to go on all that fighter accomplished (or didn't accomplish) inside a ring.

However, when I look at the amount of fighters that came out of the 1980's group that have me saying each of them were "wasted talent," I really think "potential" should be put in there and discussed.

Look at the list: Tony Tubbs. Greg Page. James Broad. Joe Hipp. Tim Witherspoon. And, yes, even Mike Tyson. All, with the exception of Tyson, had huge problems with weight...or problems with food. Because of that, I think all fell short of their POTENTIAL, which, I think we'd all agree, was, for most of them, huge. The debate over Tyson's waste of what could have and should have been a great career will rage forever. Had Tyson's head been screwed on straight, does anybody really believe he would have lost to Buster Douglas? And with the mental/emotional beatings he took from Don King and Robin Givens, it's a wonder he did as well as he did.

Could Tyson--at his best--ever have beaten Evander Holyfield? Who knows. But it's fun to discuss.

I just think he is the man who sits atop my "Most Wasted Talent" list.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
03-30-2009, 01:27 PM
Here is how I tackled the "Tyson waste of Talent" discussion a while back.

Not saying my opinion on this is the CORRECT one, it's simply how I viewed it:


Gor, I understand what you are saying. But I have never been comfortable giving the exscuse clause out to Mike in this manner.

MAYBE he could have established himself as the very best or maybe he maxed out his potential. We really don;t know.

Personally, I think the lost years for Ali, Louis and Dempsey potentially hurt how great THEY could have been viewed as well. And what if Johnson were allowed a shot at the crown BEFORE he was 30?

Injuries to Gerry Cooney in 1982 cost Larry Holmes an extra bout or 2 during that year for him. ANd two failed negotiations for bouts with John Tate and Gerrie Coetzee nearly shelved Holmes for all of 1984. Holmes could concieably reached 49-0 or more BEFORE the Spinks bout had a few set backs NOT have happened. (Or as Poster Sharkey points out, Maybe Holmes drops a duke somewhere had those bouts happened.

As Holmes was in or near his prime during this time, I like to think he posts the wins and moves him to breaking Rocky's 49-0 record. But then it puts Lar a couple W's shy of Joe Louis's 25 defenses and you KNOW Larry doesn't stop shy of that. And of course there would STILL have to be a bout with Butterbean in 2000......)

Sugar Ray Leonard is a classic example of wasted years as well due to his eye.

Now there is NOTHING certain that says that during these lost years for the above fighters would have run the table. It seems possible and one could make the case that it is likely they would.

But it is not certain.

(poster) Hagler pointed out that in Mike's Best (Biggest? Most Notable?) performance of his career:

He was under Don King's thumb.

He had Roper and Givens who were in the picture.

His relationship with Rooney was strained.

The lawsuits with Cayton were going on.

It was these types of exscuses that are used to give Tyson a "get out of jail free card" for poor performances. Yet under those very similar type of circumstances, he delivers his "Max Schmeling" moment.

His Jess Willard Moment.

His Cleveland WIlliams moment.

The "Most Impressive" or "Best" or Biggest" or "Most Noteworthy" performance of Tyson's career.

After Rooney it was all bad supposedly. Well Richie Giachetti IMO was a better trainer than Rooney would ever dream of being. Snowell did show with Tim Austin, that he was pretty competent himself.

Maybe, just Maybe, we SAW the best of Mike Tyson under ANY circumstances.

But if we ARE to give Tyson the benefit of the doubt of what he COULD have accomplished, I think he needs to stand in line with the rest of the greats who can make the same claims about the lost years and lost opportunities and difficult situations and scenarios that they had to endure and overcome.

Hawk

Sharkey
03-30-2009, 01:31 PM
Sharks: The offering of candy to James "Broadass" Broad came in a September 1982 broadcast on ESPN from the Sands Hotel in Atlantic City. I believe Broad's opponent was Randy Mack. Only the month before, Broad had fought on ESPN and told the audience, "I will be a lot lighter in my next fight." Well, the Mack fight was his next fight and Broad WAS lighter--one-quarter of a pound lighter. So, the afternoon before the fight, I took a walk on the Boardwalk to the story which sold fudge and salt water taffy. I bought James a box of fudge. In the post-fight interview, I handed him the box, saying it was a gift from my broadcast partner, Sal Marchiano, and myself. He took the box with a chuckle, but after the telecast, went off on me at ringside.

The next day, while in my office at Ring Magazine, I received a call from the show's matchmaker, Teddy Brenner. He blasted me for my gift to Broad, calling it an "insult to this world-class athlete."

From there, Broad's weight basically hovered around the same thing: 245 pounds. But after a decision loss to Marvis Frazier about a year later, Broad's attitude went from bad to worse, and his weight headed upwards. I believe his final weight, in a fight he lost in 1993, was around 290 pounds, a weight he "trained down to" from over 300 pounds. When he died in 2001, his weight was hovering between 350 and 400 pounds.

Wasted talent. Most definitely. And a very sad story.

-Randy G.

I was 9 (almost 10) so my memory was a little fuzzy, Randy. That is an awesome story!!!!

Hard to believe Tony Tucker beating Broad when he did made put him in line for the title bout...won him a USBA title, and Broad got to that position (kind of amazingly, had he won would he have faced Bus for the vacant title??) by beating no one, and putting a KOby 2 by Spoon wnough months behind him.

hawk5ins
03-30-2009, 04:31 PM
Broad's Post Career was extremely sad and I am not trying to come accross as an unsympathetic heel here, but DURING his career, I just don't recall that "moment" where everone took a step back and pondered what might have been if he was in shape.

I don't think beating Eddie Gregg was that "moment". And other than that, the only other big moment was when he ko'd Marvis Frazier in the Olympic Trials with a punch to the forehead. One that momentarily paralyzed Marvis and it was later discovered that this happened due to a pinched nerver in his neck. One that required an operation to correct.

The Ulitmate "freak" Ko.

Marvis certainly made up for that loss as a pro when he avenged that defeat.

Broad to ME was a full notch below the fighters of the 80's who blew it with their lack of dedication and focus. A Witherspoon, a Page, a Dokes, a Thomas, a Tillis, and on and on.

Broad to me, is like a Sam Peter. I fighter who if he was dedicated and in shape, would definitely have been better......but I just am not all that certain of HOW much better.

Hawk

mrbig1
03-31-2009, 03:52 AM
The two names that pops in my head is Riddick Bowe and James Toney. Both could have been so much better than they were. James Toney could have been a all time p4p great champion if he only stayed in shape. To go from Middleweight to a fat heavyweight and still beat some good fighters in that division shows what a great talent he was. Big Daddy was a skilled big man who could fight either inside or out. When he was in shape he looked unbeatable. Bowe would go from his fighting weight of 235 to over 300 pounds in about 3 months. Then would try to get his fat ass in shape for his next fight. I don't feel sorry for these two but it is still a sad story. Peter on the other hand was never that good. I thought Toney won there first meeting. If you can't win in this division in or out a shape you ain't that good.

hawk5ins
03-31-2009, 07:45 AM
the Day I shed a tear or feel sorry for James Toney, is the day I take up the Harpsicord and sprout wings.

The questions of WHAT IF about his weight IMO can be turned around right on him. WHAT IF when he was going after the middleweight crown, he was facing a fighter with an actual beard? WHAT IF the judges in his fights with Tiberi, Reggie Johhson and McCallum II scored the fights for the OTHER guy....IE who most thought won these bouts. WHAT IF when going after the 168 pound crown, he had to face someone other than the limited Iran Barkely who was coming DOWN from Light Heavyweight? WHAT IF the Cruiserweight he fought for that crown was someone other than the rugged but limited Jirov? WHAT IF he'd faced Evander Holyfield who was NOT 150 years old?

And beyond the WHAT IF's, How about the WHY's? WHY did he not excell at 175, seemingly his IDEAL weight?

I'm sorrry, but when the QUESTIONS outnumber the Accomplishments, I think what we actually saw was what actually was there.

And with Bowe....We saw one special night with him and that was agianst a Holyfield who fought an incredibly stupid fight. Evanders fault, and still credit to Bowe for the perfomance he gave.....but we never saw THAT pre or post that showing.

Maybe, just maybe, THAT was the anomoly and not the standard by whihc he could have given us.

Bowe POST career is a reason we can feel sorry for him. But I simply didn't see enought "potential" performances from him to think anything other than what we saw was what we were getting.

Sorry here, but I just don't have a big soft spot for the whole "wasted talent" stories. My heart is reserved for those who HAD and Displayed the talent, but never received the opportunity.

Hawk

mrbig1
03-31-2009, 01:01 PM
We were talking about overweight fighters. No one said we should shed a tear. After James Toney was Champion he fought 20 times between the Nunn and Jones fight. Fighting everybody and there brother. That has not been done since the days of Joe Louis. As far as what if's we can say that about anybody. What if Jimmy Young wins against Ali. What if Ken Norton wins all 3 fighter against Ali. What if Doug Jones Wins over Ali. What if Billy Conn keeps out Boxing Louis over 15 rounds. I can do this all day. Boxing is full of what if's. The fact is Toney was a outstanding boxer when in shape. The fact also is that Toney was fat and lazy. He has no one to blame but himself. Bowe had Eddie Futch in his corner. He was a well school fighter who was a lazy fat pig. Now we come to Sam Peter. Another lazy pig who hates training and who is now a stepping stone for young fighters.

hawk5ins
03-31-2009, 02:00 PM
with any fighter.

I think that is the point here.

As it applies to Toney, for every "what if" one can apply to why he would have been a "greater" fighter, one can come up with 3 or 4 "what if"s in his career, that would have ensured he would have been even less thought of than he is today.

That's why "what DID he do" will always be more important than "what if".

And as an aside, I do think the Hyperbole of "facing everyone out there whihc hasn't been done since the days of Joe Louis", is a biiit over the top. ANd easily disproved on both sides of the fence.

Hawk

mrbig1
04-17-2009, 02:02 PM
Mr. Gordon please fill me in on the Ali vs Liston rematch. I heard all kinds of stories about this fight. Liston was still the favorite in the rematch. I heard Liston's management bet a ton of money on Ali to win. They put extra money down that Ali would win in the first round. Is that true? I loved Jersey Joe as a fighter but sucked as a ref.

Randy Gordon
05-08-2009, 03:59 PM
MrBig: Sorry it's taken awhile to get back to you here, but the last month has seen me make several trips to Florida, two to California and a few others around the country (all boxing/MMA-related).

A long time ago I heard talk that Liston's management had bet a lot of money AGAINST their fighter, but I was never able to confirm that. During my days at Stanley Weston's publications some 30 years ago, I talked to a few Philadelphia guys who were involved in the Liston camp and asked them about that. They swore that any money that was bet from within the Liston camp was bet ON Sonny.

"We believed Ali was fortunate that Liston had an off night in their first fight, and lots of us bet tons of money that Sonny was gonna' hammer Ali the second time around."

He told me "Sonny was scared to death of those Black Muslims, those Nation of Islam guys, who just stared as a group at Liston every time they were near him." He was convinced it was a combination of the short, chopping right hand landing squarely of the chin, Liston being a bit off-balance and a lot scared that sent him down. Of course, Liston was not about to get up with Ali hovering above him, yelling for him to get up. And you are right about Jersey Joe Walcott. He was a helluva fighter but had no right being in that ring as a ref. Only the assignment of Joe Louis to ref the second Joe Frazier-Jerry Quarry fight was more pathetic and embarrassing. Quite frankly, neither man had any clue how to handle the fight.

I'm not sure if this info cleared anything up, but that's the story I have heard--and choose to believe until further proof emerges and shows otherwise--of the Ali-Liston rematch in Lewiston, Maine.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
05-08-2009, 04:11 PM
Man, I've been spending the past few days talking about another Conspiracy, (Oswald/JFK).

Good to see another famous one (two actually) pop up in recent discussion. Although of far less significance in the grand scheme of things certainly.

But one just the same I think can be logically explained.

I am right in the same court re the "phantom punch" as what you described. No issue with it being legit and putting Sonny down. It was the acting when ON the canvas that I find so unbeleivable with Sonny! That propping up to one knee and then the slow roll over back on to his backside.

OY!

Hawk

mrbig1
05-10-2009, 01:11 PM
Man, I've been spending the past few days talking about another Conspiracy, (Oswald/JFK).

Good to see another famous one (two actually) pop up in recent discussion. Although of far less significance in the grand scheme of things certainly.

But one just the same I think can be logically explained.

I am right in the same court re the "phantom punch" as what you described. No issue with it being legit and putting Sonny down. It was the acting when ON the canvas that I find so unbeleivable with Sonny! That propping up to one knee and then the slow roll over back on to his backside.

OY!

Hawk You see, That's what I mean. Liston is rolling all over the canvas. He's thinking how long do I have to stay down before I'm counted out. Ali is standing over Liston the whole time, so the count can't begin. With all this going on Nat Fleischer, who's having a flashback of Dempsey vs Willard is telling Walcott the fight is over. Walcott is thinking this is Nat Fleischer. He must know what he's talking about and stops the fight. It's hard to believe that the same man who took the bombs of Cleveland Williams is rolling on the Canvas, from a punch from Ali. Strange would be a understatement.

Randy Gordon
06-02-2009, 01:03 PM
When I was told by my producer at SiriusXM that today I'd be doing an in-studio interview with Joe Frazier, I was a bit apprehensive. Frazier certainly didn't sound too good on the HBO special which was recently aired, "Thrilla in Manila." Well, I was pleasantly surprised at how great Frazier both looked and sounded.

He surprised me twice during the interview . On one occasion, I told him I had heard that he was angry--to this day--with cornerman/trainer Eddie Futch for stopping the "Thrilla' in Manila" after the 14th round.

"Eddie was just doing his job, so I have no complaints with that," said Joe.
He was protecting me." I was certain he'd go off on Futch. Such wasn't the case. I really glad about that.

Then came the big surprise. I asked Joe "If Muahammad Ali were to come to you and want to apologize to you, shake you hand, hug your and ask for your friendship, would you return the favor?" He said "I have no problem with that. Let's do it!" Instead of bashing Ali, which Frazier has done a lot of over the years," his eyes glowed at the opportunity to finally end his decades-long battle with Ali. I am now in the process of reaching out to Ali and to various networks in an effort to make this reconciliation happen. One network has already expressed an interest in this event. I believe it will happen.

The end of the Joe Frazier-Muhammad Ali feud is drawing near.

Stay tuned.

-Randy G.

mrbig1
06-02-2009, 02:45 PM
That's good to hear. I know Ali said some things About Joe that still bothers him to this day. On the other hand without Ali we would be saying Joe Who? Ali made Joe Frazier a household name and tons of money. Joe has to learn that sometimes we have to take the good with the bad.

Randy Gordon
06-02-2009, 10:48 PM
I cannot believe how many e-mails I have received in regards to the interview I did with Joe Frazier on my SiriusXM radio show, "Fight Club." It seems that Frazier's newfound willingness to end his long-running feud with Muhammad Ali has taken most of us by surprise. Now, I'll get in touch with Muhammad Ali & find out HIS willingness. Then, we'll see where & when we can do this Reconciliation.

I really hope it happens.

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
06-18-2009, 08:52 PM
Heavyweight needed to face Wladimir Klitschko for a few of his alphabet belts. Must be able to pass physical exams (have heartbeat, brain waves, be able to see a few feet in front of him & not have any transmittable diseases, such as Hepatitis or HIV). Ideal candidate should be at least 6'3" and weigh no less than 220 pounds, have an extensive amateur boxing background & a few dozen professional bouts, with most of them being victories. A solid chin is a major plus, as is an abundance of courage. Samuel Peter need not apply.
-RG

Randy Gordon
06-19-2009, 10:26 PM
A few years ago I was in Germany on vacation. I went to Berlin, Stutgardt and a handful of other cities. I found them to be like so many other European cities I've visited--beautiful, romantic, historic, enchanting and breathtaking. But I also was amazed at how many porno shops there were. And "ladies of the evening." Maybe I have become oblivious to the same things in New York City, but I swear "The Big Apple" has nowhere near the same amount of "art" among its multitude of millions.

And how about this: When the UFC recently went to Cologne, Germany, to promote UFC 99, the local licensing federation which handles such events refused to allow children under 17 into the event. Why? The rules is antiquated and makes no sense. When I came aboard the NYSAC in 1988, that same, stupid rule was in place. It became one of the first rules I changed. Dropped. Eliminated.

Then, of course, is the Wladimir Klitschko-Ruslan Chagaev heavyweight title fight. If promoters had tried to put it on in the United States, they would have been unsuccessful. Why? Chagaev has Hepatitis B antigens in his system. Virulent, contagious Hepaatitis B. Why a brilliant man such as Klitschko would accept a match against a man who you really don't want bleeding or sweating on you is mind-boggling. Hmm. Maybe Klitschko really isn't so brilliant, after all.

Yeh, the kids in Germany can watch all the porn they want, and German officials will let a boxer climb in the ring to face a man with a deadly, communicable disease and spray blood and sweat over those at ringside, but they won't allow the under-17 crowd into a building to witnes a UFC Event.

Go try to figure out their logic.

I can't.

-Randy G.

KOJOE90
06-20-2009, 07:23 AM
"The end of the Joe Frazier-Muhammad Ali feud is drawing near."

That would be a wonderfull thing to see, for Boxing, Boxing fans but most of all Ali & Frazier themselves.

Hope it happens soon.

Randy Gordon
06-30-2009, 03:36 PM
This Friday, joining me on my SiriusXM show, "Fight Club," will be one of my longtime favorite active fighters, 27-year-old jr. middleweight Paul "The Punisher" Williams.

The phenominally-conditioned Williams, who is 37-1, is coming off a near 12-round shutout over Winky Wright in April. In that fight, Williams threw over 1,000 punches in the 12 rounds the fight lasted, saving his largest volume of leather for the 12th & final round.

I find it a bit funny--and ironic--that Williams is a promotional stablemate of heavyweight Cris "The Nipple" Arreola, who is the antithesis of Williams when it comes to training (although I hear "The Nipple" is now working with a personal trainer).

So, if you have Sirius Radio or XM Radio, tune in between 5-7 pm (ET) on Sirius Channel 127 or XM 103 this Friday to hear what Williams has to say & who he is looking to pound on next.

-Randy G.

Phillyfan
07-04-2009, 05:23 AM
One network has already expressed an interest in this event. I believe it will happen.

The end of the Joe Frazier-Muhammad Ali feud is drawing near.

Stay tuned.

-Randy G.

Why does a network have to be part of the equation? Bring the two together in a private setting. Let them hash it out. No networks, not newspapers. Let the men have some privacy. If they want to speak with the press after that, then by all means broadcast it.

Phillyfan
07-04-2009, 05:38 AM
Yeh, the kids in Germany can watch all the porn they want, and German officials will let a boxer climb in the ring to face a man with a deadly, communicable disease and spray blood and sweat over those at ringside, but they won't allow the under-17 crowd into a building to witnes a UFC Event.

Go try to figure out their logic.

I can't.

-Randy G.

wow, Randy, you're being a bit judgemental here. I was in germany 3 months ago. I didn't see porn anywhere. As a matter of fact, my daughter made a remark when she saw hamburg that stuck with me. She said, Its like NY except clean".
In germany you can drink at any age, yet in the US, we have more of a problem with alcoholism.
Porn is available in any magazine store in the US and we have worse on TV. For instance Law and Order SVU which only deals in sex crimes. Sex in the City, The Sopranos, Oz, Deadwood, Nip/Tuck, dexter, etc...
In 2007 Tommy Morrison fought in WV after being diagnosed with Aids.
Why bash germany when much of the same, or worse goes on over here?

mrbig1
07-05-2009, 09:57 AM
wow, Randy, you're being a bit judgemental here. I was in germany 3 months ago. I didn't see porn anywhere. As a matter of fact, my daughter made a remark when she saw hamburg that stuck with me. She said, Its like NY except clean".
In germany you can drink at any age, yet in the US, we have more of a problem with alcoholism.
Porn is available in any magazine store in the US and we have worse on TV. For instance Law and Order SVU which only deals in sex crimes. Sex in the City, The Sopranos, Oz, Deadwood, Nip/Tuck, dexter, etc...
In 2007 Tommy Morrison fought in WV after being diagnosed with Aids.
Why bash germany when much of the same, or worse goes on over here?
Amen, I lived it Germany for 3 years. In those 3 years I never saw a piece of thash on the ground. Even in the woods it looked like somebody took a giant rake and clean the place up. You could walk down any street at night a feel safe. I would like to see someone walk down the streets of my hometown of Baltimore. You best have a gun. I saw 3 Germans here for Derby. One of them said something that blew my mind. He said I can't believe how poor you Americans are. Man that sucks. UFC lacks the skill and art that boxing has to offer. Plus it lacks the sportsmenship. I can see why the Germans would not want young people to see this crap.

hawk5ins
07-06-2009, 09:11 AM
That Randy was saying Germany was dirty or poor. In fact he pointed out how "beautiful, romantic, historic, enchanting and breathtaking" the cities were that he visited.

His point was more about Rules allowing persons under the age of 17 to have the ability to view Porn but not UFC.

Listen, to anyone who knows me, I am not exactly a big fan of UFC stuff and it's ilk. I've tried viewing it and it does not interest me. In the least. So me defending the interests of this Sport, probably does seem out of place.

But I would agree that Germany's policy of this 17 year age limit is a bit odd, when that same age limit is not applicable in other areas.

I would also agree that the medical standards and safeguards do seem to be lacking in the sporting arena, to allow Chagaev to fight so soon after his diagnosis.

I read Randy's post as having issues in these two areas and not a blanket trashing of the country for being dirty, unsafe and undesirable.

Hawk

Phillyfan
07-06-2009, 09:57 AM
That Randy was saying Germany was dirty or poor. In fact he pointed out how "beautiful, romantic, historic, enchanting and breathtaking" the cities were that he visited.

His point was more about Rules allowing persons under the age of 17 to have the ability to view Porn but not UFC.

Listen, to anyone who knows me, I am not exactly a big fan of UFC stuff and it's ilk. I've tried viewing it and it does not interest me. In the least. So me defending the interests of this Sport, probably does seem out of place.

But I would agree that Germany's policy of this 17 year age limit is a bit odd, when that same age limit is not applicable in other areas.

I would also agree that the medical standards and safeguards do seem to be lacking in the sporting arena, to allow Chagaev to fight so soon after his diagnosis.

I read Randy's post as having issues in these two areas and not a blanket trashing of the country for being dirty, unsafe and undesirable.

Hawk



amazing, I didn't see Randys lips move once.

Yes, he begins by saying the cities are beautiful, but goes on to say how many porn shops and ladies of the evening he saw. I have been to germany many many times and never saw a porn shop or street walker. I think it gave a very negative view of germany and I wanted to add my positive take on the country. Apparently I'm not the only one who thought that as MrBig1 also felt he should point out some positives.
Also from Randys post you feel "the medical standards and safeguards do seem to be lacking". Germany puts on boxing events as good as, if not better, than many other countries. No one here knows the complete medical report of chagaev or the medical steps that were used to safeguard the fighters and spectators. Ask Greg page about lacking safeguards if you want to throw stones. To make a blanket statement from one event was a bit much as it gives the impression they don't know what they're doing over there.
And finally, you're questioning a country that wants to limit exposure to a violent sport to those under 17?
MMA is on tv here now. Any kid at any age can watch it. I question our policy much more than I question Germanys.

Phillyfan
07-06-2009, 10:59 AM
Yeh, the kids in Germany can watch all the porn they want, and German officials will let a boxer climb in the ring to face a man with a deadly, communicable disease and spray blood and sweat over those at ringside, but they won't allow the under-17 crowd into a building to witnes a UFC Event.

Go try to figure out their logic.

I can't.

-Randy G.

Seriously, when you read randys post, you would think germany is full of porn shops and prostitutes.
"The kids in germany can watch all the porn they want".

The german boxing commission is inferior to the US and "let a boxer climb in the ring to face a man with a deadly, communicable disease and spray blood and sweat over those at ringside"

And the officials are backwards for denying kids under 17 the right to witness a UFC event.

In germany, they are probably saying, look at all the gun shops in america. Any kid in america can get a gun.
How could they allow Tommy Morrison in the ring. In germany we would never allow someone with a disease like aids to fight.
They allow UFC fights to be broadcast on TV, any kid can watch. No wonder they rank above us in the number of violent crimes and murders.

"Yeh, the kids in Germany can watch all the porn they want",
thats funny when our president and members of congress are the ones who find it hard to keep their pants on. We're the ones that seem obsessed with porn.

hawk5ins
07-06-2009, 11:20 AM
I will let the "puppet master" respond from here.

I thought the point he was making was rather clear.

If you are reading more into than what appears to be the case, from this set of eyes, then by all means, drag this out with Randy.

Not sure where the point Randy was making would draw an analogy with former President Clinton's getting a hummer from a chubby intern, but I guess we all see different things in what we read.

Consider my "strings" cut.

Hawk

mrbig1
07-06-2009, 12:58 PM
Seriously, when you read randys post, you would think germany is full of porn shops and prostitutes.
"The kids in germany can watch all the porn they want".

The german boxing commission is inferior to the US and "let a boxer climb in the ring to face a man with a deadly, communicable disease and spray blood and sweat over those at ringside"

And the officials are backwards for denying kids under 17 the right to witness a UFC event.

In germany, they are probably saying, look at all the gun shops in america. Any kid in america can get a gun.
How could they allow Tommy Morrison in the ring. In germany we would never allow someone with a disease like aids to fight.
They allow UFC fights to be broadcast on TV, any kid can watch. No wonder they rank above us in the number of violent crimes and murders.

"Yeh, the kids in Germany can watch all the porn they want",
thats funny when our president and members of congress are the ones who find it hard to keep their pants on. We're the ones that seem obsessed with porn.
Once again my friend you are right as rain. I feel sorry for the German people with their free health care and six weeks paid vacation. Maybe one day they shall enjoy freedom just like us.:rolleyes:

mrbig1
07-06-2009, 01:18 PM
I hate the UFC/MMA horse shit. You throw the guy on the canvas,pound his ass and the fights over. I don't get it. It is promoted the same as drag racing. SUNDAY,SUNDAY,SUNDAY, BIG UFC CHAMPIONSHIP FIGHT. BOBCAT JONES VS KING KONG JACKSON. Give me a break.

hawk5ins
07-06-2009, 02:28 PM
I see. This was all about Vacation time comparisons.

Sorry if I missed that when I initially read Randy's post.

My bad.

Hawk

Phillyfan
07-06-2009, 05:32 PM
Not sure where the point Randy was making would draw an analogy with former President Clinton's getting a hummer from a chubby intern, but I guess we all see different things in what we read.

Consider my "strings" cut.

Hawk


Please, no names. I don't want the liberal left up in arms again.
For the record, I did not mention the name bill clinton,hawk5ins did.

hawk5ins
07-06-2009, 06:01 PM
I should not have mentioned Clinton directly.

He could have been talking about any one of our presidents who have been accused of having difficulty keeping their pants on.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
07-06-2009, 07:03 PM
Wow! Talk about reading between the lines. I never meant anything against Germany or Germans, other than the fact I felt it ridiculous that Ruslan Chagaev would be licensed to fight there after medical tests proved conclusively that he had hepatitis, a disease which would have made him ineligible to fight anywhere in the United States (well, with the exception of perhaps W. Virginia, whose regulation of professional boxing has long been known to be a joke!).

As far as my remarks about porno shops in Germany, sorry, I saw many of them in the many cities I've been to. That doesn't make them bad cities, it just means I saw them. One of my neighbors lived there for something like 10 years, and said the sex is more out in the open there than it is here (and here it isn't exactly hidden).

And as far as cleanliness of the cities, all I could think of in each place I visited was, "Wow, this is cleaner than Philadelphia."

As I think about it, it's so ridiculous that kids under 17 cannot purchase a ticket for an MMA fight. Which brings me to a remark made by MrBig1. You said something to the effect that MMA fighters lack skills & sportsmanship. I am so glad I wasn't eating something when I read that, otherwise I would have choked. MrBig1, I really respect your boxing knowledge and passion for the sport. I, too, have a bit of knowledge about boxing and a passion that runs long and deep for boxing. But, I also understand and love MMA. I also train in both boxing and MMA. I can tell you unequivocally that MMA training is MUCH harder, MORE difficult and MORE strenuous. In fact, it's not even close. To say the athletes of MMA lack sportsmanship, or something very close to that, is downright ignorant, or just hateful. But I doubt you are a hateful person. In our beloved boxing, it seems every time there is a close decision, the loser bashes just about everybody he/she can think of. In MMA, the fight ends and the competitors hug, just like in boxing. But in MMA, nobody verbally bashes anybody in a post-fight tirade. Want lack of sportsmanship, check out LeBron James' remarks after the Cleveland Cavaliers lost in the NBA playoffs. That's lack of sportsmanship. But don't tell me and our readers that MMA has a lack of sportsmanship just because you can't stand the sport. Hey, I once couldn't stand it either. In fact, I am the one who banned it in New York State. Then, by keeping an open mind, I began to change my attitude. I don't know if you'll change yours, nor do I ask you to. But making a remark that there's a lack of sportsmanship in MMA is downright ignorant and hateful.

Oh, getting back to Germany for a second, my wife and I are planning yet another vacation to Deutschland in the coming months. Why? Certainly not because of any ill-feelings you believe I have towards the country.

Now, we also discussed going to France. I nixed that because, well...

-Randy G.

Phillyfan
07-06-2009, 07:23 PM
And as far as cleanliness of the cities, all I could think of in each place I visited was, "Wow, this is cleaner than Philadelphia."
-Randy G.


truer words were never spoken. 2 years ago, I took the train thru philly on my way to the airport to go to germany. I felt like the old indian in the commercial crying because he sees people use the land like a garbage dump. In philly, 1 block off of broad street and you're in no mans land.

see now we're all friends again.

Randy Gordon
07-06-2009, 08:45 PM
Phillyfan: I hope you don't think I was angry in any way for the recent back-and-forth we engaged in. I wasn't angry...not a little. You are certainly entitled to disagree or take issue with anything I or anybody else writes on these threads. The same goes for MrBig1, whose remarks about MMA I recently pounced upon, and will certainly hear from as soon as he reads my reply (he said MMA competitors "lack sportsmanship," which I took issue with).

As for my love of MMA, I look at it like this: By loving both boxing AND MMA, I get the best of both worlds. When there's a boxing match on, I watch it. When there's an MMA event on, I watch it. If I had to go without eating until the next big boxing match came along, I'd wind up back at my birthweight. At least with MMA, I can keep my weight on. Let's see, what's coming up? Oh, yeh...UFC 100.

-Randy G.

mrbig1
07-06-2009, 09:26 PM
I was talking about the way it is promoted. It's more of a in your face type of promotion. More in line with the WWF. Don't be haten, That's just the way I see it. I see the beauty and art of boxing. As I've said before, fighter A is boxing the ears off fighter B. Then fighter B throws fighter A to the canvas and starts pounding his ass and the fights over. If that's art I don't see it. Didn't old washed up Ray Mercer clock one of the MMA guys two weeks ago? I'm just not a fan of UFC/MMA. Please forgive me.

wildhawke11
07-06-2009, 09:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F1XsxE-xpM&feature=related


Just for you Randy == Turn your sound up
Danny ;)

mrbig1
07-06-2009, 09:57 PM
Dude,You're breaking my heart. I cried like a baby when I had to leave. :mad:

Randy Gordon
07-06-2009, 11:22 PM
Danny: Thanks for the National Anthem of Germany. Now, if somebody would only send me some German beer...

Oh, & MrBig, yeh, I loved it when old, washed-up Ray Mercer drilled former UFC heavyweight champ Tim Sylvia (who is also washed-up, having been KO'd in the first-round in his previous outing) in the first round.

-Randy G.

mrbig1
07-06-2009, 11:35 PM
Didn't know that sir. You can tell I don't watch it much. Just not my cup of tea.

Phillyfan
07-07-2009, 09:53 AM
Randy, no offense taken whatsoever. I probably over reacted. Its just you never see any good news about germany. If they show germany in the news at all, its got some negative spin on it. Did you ever have spagetti ice cream while you were there?

Randy Gordon
08-01-2009, 08:31 AM
Tonight from the Mohegan Sun Resort Casino in Uncasville, CT, I will be taking in the Delvin Rodriguez-Isaac Hlatshwayo (LOT/SCHWAY/O) fight for the IBF Welterweight Championship as the blow-by-blow announcer for Joe DeGuardia's Star Boxing. The event, which is being shown on GOFIGHTLIVE.TV, is also being taped for showing on cable outlets around the country.

The two had engaged in a rough 12-round battle for what was then called a title eliminator last November. After 12 rounds, Hlatshwayo was awarded a decision. But a review of the scorecards showed that officials at ringside had tallied the scorecards wrong (which absolutely boggles my mind that supposed intelligent men can't add 10 plus nine plus nine plus nine plus 10...!). After a recount, the fight was declared a draw.

So, in just a few, I'll be off to the beautiful Mohegan Sun (which is so much nicer than its neighbor Foxwoods, which is beginning to look run down & even dumpy!) on a gorgeous day here in the Northeast.

See ya' Sunday with a report on the action.

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
08-02-2009, 02:45 PM
Well, the Isaac Hlatshwayo-Delvin Rodriguez 12-round bout for the IBF Welterweight Title is history. After 12 rounds of fast-paced action, Hlatshwayo is the man who had the IBF title belt placed around his waist.

The fight goes into the books as a split-decision for Hlatshwayo, with the lone dissenter being the usually-reliable Glenn Feldman. However, his 115-113score for Rodriguez is in NO way realistic or accurate. Hlatshwayo won this fight (117-111 on my card), sweeping the last six rounds of the fight, at worst, five of the last six.

The first six rounds were highly-entertaining, as both guys walked to the center of the large ring at the opening bell & began mugging each other. By as early as the second round, the South African already was sporting a mouse under his left eye, and you had to wonder whether that eye would be a factor if the fight went into the later rounds. Well, the fight did go into the later rounds, but Hlatshwayo's corner did an excellent job in keeping the swelling from becoming that fight-stopping injury we hinted it could become. And after six, the fight looked to be dead even, or possibly even Rodriguez' by a close margin. But then, Rodriguez began to slow down, while Hlatshwayo stepped on the gas even more. Rodriguez had no answer for the super-charged South African, and was out-punched in virtually every exchange throughout the remainder of the fight.

At the final bell, there was no question as to who was about to be declared the new IBF welterweight champion. However, because of the fiery, competitive tone of the contest--especially through the first six rounds--I had said in my commentary as early as the mid-point of the fight, to expect a split decision. I was on the money with that one.

Ring announcer Joe Antonacci called off the scores:

"Judge Isaac Tshabalala has it 116-113 for Hlatshwayo."

"Oh no," I thought. "This one is REALLY going to be split."

Antonacci continued.

"Judge Glenn Feldman has it 115-113 for Rodriguez!"

I was stunned, as a guy I look at as one of boxing's best judges had just voiced his opinion through his scorecard that Rodriguez had done enough to win. Heck of a time to have probably your worst moment as a pro boxing judge!

There was still one more score. Thankfully, this judge got it right.

"...and judge Tony Paolillo scored it 116-112, for the winner...and NEW, IBF welterweight champion of the world...Isaac Hlatschwayo!"

Naturally, Rodriguez and his manager thought the decision was wrong. Let me tell them something. It WAS wrong. It shouldn't have been split. It should have been unanimous. For Hlatshwayo. Get over it. Rest up and get back in the gym. You'll get another chance, another shot, especially with Star Boxing promoting you and Ron Katz making matches for you.

For now, that IBF title belongs to Isaac Hlatshwayo. He earned it. He deserves to be called "Champ."

-Randy G.

walshb
08-06-2009, 08:28 AM
Randy, can you tell me what are the legal requirements for weighing scales
used by the WBA, WBC and IBF. Are they and do they have to be digital (electronic) and how accurate must they be?

Thanks...

Randy Gordon
08-13-2009, 05:40 PM
Walshb: As far as I recall, there were/are no "official" requirements for scales, other than they be accurate. Sanctioning bodies never use their own scales--they use the scale provided to them by the local commission.

In New York, the scale in the offices of the NYSAC is a true relic. It is a Fairbanks (as in, "he tipped the Fairbanks at 205 pounds...") that goes back to the 1930's. It is made primarily of brass and wood, with the original brass plate upon which the fighters step to be weighed still attached. At least once a year, we had the Bureau of Weights & Measures come in to adjust and fine-tune the scale. They used to come up with a handtruck and a box filled with up to 100 pounds of weights, many of which looked like the kettle bells you see in gyms. These weights would be placed alone and in combination on the brass plate. The inspector would then check the weight given as he adjusted the scale according to the weights on the brass plate. The scale would have to exactly match each of the test weights it was given in order for approval to be given. The inspector also checked he positioning of the scale on the floor, using several carpenter's levels. The scale had to be completely level before weights were put on. Had the scale been even slightly off, the inspector would make the proper adjustments, then check the accuracy up to one dozen times before signing off on it. I would have to say that scale, as old as it is, may be the most accurate one I have ever seen. When a fighter stepped on, and said it was making him "three pounds heavier than I was in the gym this morning before coming over here," I knew either his gym scale was off or he was lying. (That scale, by the way, was requested for and used by actor Robert DeNiro for his movie, "Night and the City").

Now, going outside of the commission offices was another story. Obviously, we couldn't take the old Fairbanks with us to other venues, as it weighed a few hundred pounds and was just not something you could put in the trunk of your car. So, we had to use scales from each of the venues where the fight was taking place, be it Madison Square Garden, the Huntington Townhouse, Rochester's War Memorial Coliseum, Yonkers Raceway, a nightclub in The Bronx or what was then-called "The Egg" in Albany. We did our best to check the calibration and accuracy of each of the scales hours before the weigh-in, using the same kind of apothecary weights and/or sealed bags of flour. If four 25-pound bags of flour were placed on the scale, and the reading came up 96 pounds, we'd know the scale was off. If it read 100.1 pounds, we'd know it was pretty much on the money. In both cases, we would do our best to make the scale read exactly 100 pounds.

I cannot tell you how many times we used scales from venues around the state that were off--way off--in their accuracy before we made adjustments.
But then, at the weigh-in, there was usually at least one fighter who disagreed vehemently with the scale's reading. Ten other fighters may have gotten on the scale and had no problem making weight. Then one guy would step on and be nine pounds over his contract weight.

"Hey, what's going on?" he would shout in mock surprise. His manager and trainer played along, looking at each other in shock.

"It can't be!" hollered the trainer. "Just yesterday we were right at weight, and I haven't left the kid's side since then. This scale must be off!" Right. And 10 other fighters on the card are really nine pounds underweight!

As far as using a digital scale, I never did, but would have had no other scale been available. Before doing so, I would have done the same test with weights and calibrated the scale accordingly.

All of this kind of reminds me...I haven't been near a scale all year. I wonder what I weigh? Time to go check. If I'm way over where I think I should be, I'll just blame the scale for being over!

-Randy G.

Ron Lipton
08-23-2009, 01:52 AM
08-23-2009, 01:51 AM #2
Ron Lipton
Registered User


Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York Re: malinagi robbed in houston

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08-23-2009, 01:49 AM #3
Ron Lipton
Registered User


Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York Re: Diaz Vs. Malignaggi

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08-23-2009, 01:34 AM #6
Ron Lipton
Registered User


Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York Re: guerrero-clausen

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One of the most boring cards ever.

1. In Robert Guerrero V Malcolm Klassen I was stunned again to see the non ending putrid nepotism of using Lawrence Cole in another nationally televised event with his father Dickie Cole arranging for his son to get another title fight over other officials again and again.

Then when he was assigned again as the referee in the main event twice on the same card for a double payday, it sets a new standard for shoving a relative down the throats of the public with zero accountability. I wonder how Randy Gordon who like me knows all these guys feels about this non ending bullshit.

Cole never notices equipment violatins, was ALWAYS in the way in the main event, could not get out of the fighter's way and slaps at the fighters gloves, always shooting his hands at their gloves while they are boxing, NOT locked up and infighting. Gesturing constantly with his hands

The decision was atrocious, I know Gale Van Hoy a friend of Dickie Cole, Lawrence's father. He is a nice man, but dear God these Texas officials are the most biased anywhere. I remember refereeing Orlando Canizalez V Poison Junior Jones who outpointed him hands down. The Texas Judge imported to MSG gives it to Canizales.

Malignaggi told it like it is in the ring and Max should have STOPPED cutting him off, fuck it man, let him say his piece, I don't give a shit if he is pissed, let him talk, thats part of boxing. Plus he was right.

I have reasons for not liking Malignaggi manners but in this case he was RIGHT.

Then it takes Cole until the 11th round to notice one fighter's trunks are falling down around his ass for 2 full rounds, is he blind?

The refs they used tonight failed to notice the damn foul proof cups riding waaaay up above the navel giving an unfair advantage for body protection.

No one on HBO mentions the tremendous gain in weight where a guy who made 159 now weights 175 freaking pounds, like a nine pound weight advantage is not worth talking about passed a casual one sentence mention of it.

MMA is killing boxing becaus these fights are so fucking boring it is heartbreaking. No one can punch, the officals suck, the action sucks and we are fight starved.

Man am I tired of hearing all the street talking Mayweather bullshit, it is really a strain on the ears being pimped talked to death like that 24-7.

After the fight the HBO crew should have protested the crap decision much more strongly and told it like it is instead of the sanitized rated G response, that kind of lukewarm reaction DOES NOT FIT WHAT JUST WENT DOWN THE PUBLIC'S THROAT.

GET REAL GUYS. LET THE FUR FLY AND TELL IT LIKE IT IS. LET THE FIGHTER BITCH TO HIS HEART'S CONTENT IF YOU WON'T LET HIM FOR CHRIST SAKES

gregbeyer
08-23-2009, 02:20 AM
i remember the phrase... "tip the toledo".

greg

Ron Lipton
08-28-2009, 10:51 PM
I figured you would get a kick out of the Mercante Jr interview on Doghouse and Max in which he says he agrees with his Father to bring back referees in the scoring. Good God almighty, imagine that one.

Randy Gordon
08-30-2009, 08:02 PM
I didn't read the Doghouse interview with Arthur Mercante Jr., but I probably will check it out after I do a million other odds, ends and chores around here. Old man Mercante, who has obviously swayed his son into believing referees make great judges at the same time they are doing their referee chores, used to ask me all the time to reinstate allowing referees to score the bouts they were reffing. But wait! There's more. He also used to ask, "Why don't you set yourself apart from other commissions and let the referee be the lone voice in the fight, like they do in England."

Let the referee be a judge, and the ONLY judge in the fight? Was Mercante joking? No, he wasn't. In addition to that ludicrous question, Mercante also used to suggest that I "bring back saving by the bell in ANY round." He said, "You did away with that rule, and it was a great rule." He argued "It gives a fighter who has been knocked down at the end of a round a chance to regroup and come back to win." When I told him it also gives a fighter who has been knocked out at the end of a round the chance to come out for the next round and be knocked out again and possibly hurt seriously, Mercante said "Well, the referee can watch him closely!" I told him that when he became Chairman of the NYSAC, he could make those changes himself. He actually then began pushing for the position even before my departure in 1995.

Thankfully, he didn't get it.

The duo of Floyd Patterson (severe dementia)/Tony Russo (crooked) did, but that's a story for another day!

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
08-31-2009, 03:38 PM
1,000,001: Finish that Book!

;)

Hawk

Randy Gordon
10-13-2009, 01:32 PM
HAWK: I actually have been working on the book, though not nearly as much as I would like to. Business comes first, especially with my growing show on SiriusXM (which takes a phenomenal amount of time) and ever-expanding family (grandkids #'s 6 & 7 are on their way).

I have also been going regularly to visit my dear friend, Gil Clancy, who is in an assisted living home on Long Island, along with his longtime love, wife, Nancy. Both are closing in on 90, and, while both have all their mental capacities, both are struggling with other physical ailments.

As far as the heavyweight division is concerned, the Klitsch-KO's have cleaned out the division. Unbeaten & cheap Larry Holmes imitator Kevin Johnson is apparently next to get smashed by a Klitsch-KO, when he faces Wladimir in mid-December. Aside from the two Klits, the division is unquestionably the worst in boxing. The young fans out there have a chance to watch contenders like Cris "The Nipple" Arreola, Kevin "Soft-Around-the-Middle Johnson, David "Two of Me" Tua & other pachyderms like them, or the MMA heavyweights like Fedor, Brock Lesnar, Shane Carwin, Brett Rogers, et al. Guess which way they are heading? Flocking, is more like it.

Also, I just heard through the grapevine, that Gato Figueroa was fired by Miguel Cotto for roughing him up in sparring. Interesting, if true. No matter, Floyd Mayweather should have a fairly-easy time with either Pac-Man or Cotto when he faces either one.

Well, I'm off to find out if that story is true about Figueroa whupping up on Cotto in sparring.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
10-19-2009, 09:12 AM
Wish ol Gil all the best from CBZ.

Thanks

Hawk

Randy Gordon
10-30-2009, 02:32 PM
For those of you who get either Sirius Radio or XM Radio, Don King will be on my show at 6:30 today (Friday). It's Sirius channel 127 & XM 242.

With DK, it's always a fun time, even when he's being grilled!

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
12-02-2009, 06:10 PM
Some Old Mags the other day Randy and came accross the Aug 1987 issue of Boxing Beat.

On the Cover was a Pic of Tommy Hearns and Ray Leonard and the title was REMATCH?

Now I have NOT looked at this particular magazine in OVER 20 years. Fully expected to read an article on a potential rematch between Ray and Tommy.

But the article that was in the mag that was only partially related to it was a post fight coverage article of Leonard Hagler.....and it was written by RANDY GORDON!

For the Love of Pete, Randy, I did NOT recall that you did a piece on the bout and did NOT realize you were writing for Boxing Beat in 1987.

It was just one of those: Holy Crap, discovery feelings. I bet I flipped by this mag several dozen times over the years when searching for another magazine and never really knew the contents inside because well... it was "Boxing Beat.

22 years belated Randy.....Nice Job on the Leonard Hagler Post fight piece!

Hawk

Randy Gordon
12-02-2009, 11:06 PM
HAWK: Yeh, my writing for Boxing Beat was during my fulltime sportscasting years and pre-Commissioner years. I know I have that mag around...gotta' check it out.

Ready for a laugh? I recently applied for membership in the Boxing Writer's Association of America. I was told by Tom Hauser that they don't accept commentators, just writers. I was asked such questions as "Who I write for now" and "Will you be open to sending in articles you have written" for review by the six-member BWAA panel? Are they kidding?

I will submit some articles I have written in the last few years. Let's see the BWAA turn me down!

Happy Holidays.

-Randy G

hawk5ins
12-03-2009, 08:45 AM
A couple of years back, Jeff Ryan who has written for the Ring for like 20 years now, did an article on when HE submitted his application to become a member.

Pretty much he ripped the BWAA becuase of the questionairre of which you speak. He stated it was so insulting that he couldn't take it seriously and ended up sending in sarcastic responses.

Now I have no idea if he REALLY did this or not, but he says he did.

What I do find interesting is your validating that piece of his story. Sounds like trying to get into "Bushwood", from the Movie Caddyshack.

I'll try to dig up that piece.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
12-03-2009, 09:13 PM
HAWK: Over the coming weekend, I intend to put together a half-dozen articles I have written over the last few years, and send them into Tom Hauser, Jack Hirsch and the panel of six at the BWAA. While I would like to become a dues-paying member once again, I have prepared myself for the probability of being rejected. I have always considered myself a boxing writer. I am a boxing writer and I am a boxing announcer. I love talking about boxing and I love writing about it. I have been involved in the sport since 1967 in one way or another.

I can understand there being new rules in place within the BWAA, but as we know, rules are made, not to be broken, but to be bent, even just a little. Including me as a boxing writer would not upset some vast eternal plan. How many of the members have been the former Editor-in-Chief of The Ring, and a writer for at least a dozen other periodicals and magazines. Just last week, I had an Op-Ed published in the New York Daily News about the regulation of MMA (yeh, I know--MMA isn't boxing writing!).

The BWAA should have nothing to think about here. They should look at the articles I will send in, look at my background, accept my membership check and accept me into their holier-than-thou organization.

My life will not change if they turn me down. But it would be nice to get a new BWAA card to put with the rest of the papers and business cards in my old wallet.

Let's see what Sir Thomas Hauser does next!

-Randy G

gregbeyer
12-05-2009, 09:18 PM
wow... hauser has that much power with BWAA.

i don't know the guy personally but have heard him here described as a fraud.

sounds like a fraud with a big head.

greg

Ron Lipton
12-06-2009, 01:00 AM
If Hauser turned you down as a writer, or me as I have been writing boxing articles in boxing magazines since the 60's the world is too crazy for me.
He started with Black Lights about Costello, then the other books and his association with Ali in Ali's later life.

The rest of us who have been fighters, writers, in the ring with champions are not the experts but writers are? I had a BWAA membership card and applied to have it renewed several years ago and met with this same horseshit, the pomposity, absurdity,haughtiness and territoriality of it
are so riling that the underpinnings of the people doing it make me want to punch a fucking hole in a brick wall. Just look at them and listen to them and tell me who the boxing experts are for any project.

Just look, then listen and you will know, and they know it too that is why they do not want any real expert around them, next to them.

Just look, listen and ask yourself, how in the name of God can they be a boxing expert just by writing about others.

hawk5ins
12-23-2009, 06:08 PM
On this coming Tuesday, December 29th from 7:00 PM to 9:00 PM EST, our own Randy Gordon will be hosting a Brand, Spanking New ALL BOXING Call in Show in Sirius Channel 122 and X M Channel 143.

It will follow Randy's regularly scheduled show, Fight Club, which is a Mix of MMA and Boxing. But his NEW Show is 100% Boxing and is called:

Sirius XM Boxing Special.

On the show Randy is scheduled to have such guests as:

* George Foreman

* Recent HOF inductee, Larry Hazzard

* Irish Mickey Ward

* and Vegas Boxing and MMA writer Kevin Iole

Randy is going to be giving out some 2009 Year End Boxing Awards as well as some All Decade awards, of whihc Ward Gatti I, is a Nominee (and I Gots to assume the winner) for Fight of the Decade.

For those of you/us who subscribe to Sirius or XM, be sure to listen in and or call in to the show (Randy, if you have the Phone #, be sure to post it here!).

Should be awesome!

Hawk

hawk5ins
12-23-2009, 08:41 PM
Hawk

hawk5ins
12-28-2009, 07:29 PM
Tuesday, December 29th from 7:00 PM to 9:00 PM EST

ALL BOXING Call in Show on Sirius Channel 122 and X M Channel 143

Sirius XM Boxing Special hosted by Randy Gordon

On the show Randy is scheduled to have such guests as:

* George Foreman

* Recent HOF inductee, Larry Hazzard

* Irish Mickey Ward

* and Vegas Boxing and MMA writer Kevin Iole

Tune in!

Hawk

hawk5ins
12-29-2009, 10:49 AM
TONIGHT!

Tuesday, December 29th from 7:00 PM to 9:00 PM EST

ALL BOXING Call in Show on Sirius Channel 122 and X M Channel 143

Sirius XM Boxing Special hosted by Randy Gordon

On the show Randy is scheduled to have such guests as:

* George Foreman

* Recent HOF inductee, Larry Hazzard

* Irish Mickey Ward

* and Vegas Boxing and MMA writer Kevin Iole

Tune in!

Hawk

hawk5ins
12-29-2009, 06:00 PM
Hawk

GPater11093
01-03-2010, 09:48 PM
Mr Gordon i was reading an article by you in which you said 'All Mexicans had two left feet but Miguel Canto.'

Do you really think that surely at least Sal Sanchez had graceful and superb movement. Even Chavez, Olivares and Manuel Ortiz despite being what many call sluggers still had brilliant footwork and graceful movement.

Ron Lipton
01-04-2010, 09:15 PM
Mr Lipton i was reading an article by you in which you said 'All Mexicans had two left feet but Miguel Canto.'

Do you really think that surely at least Sal Sanchez had graceful and superb movement. Even Chavez, Olivares and Manuel Ortiz despite being what many call sluggers still had brilliant footwork and graceful movement.


Reply: Got the wrong guy there Greg, never said that.Not in my vocabulary.

Ron Lipton
01-04-2010, 09:16 PM
Randy, check out on my thread the fight recollection from the Metropol where you and me had a charming encounter with an irate manager and pals.

Ron

GPater11093
01-05-2010, 07:13 AM
sorry accidently put your name instead of Mr Gordon

Randy Gordon
01-08-2010, 08:58 AM
Greg: You claim I wrote an article in which I stated "All Mexican have two left feet." First you claimed Ron Lipton wrote those words, then switched them to me. I know Ron would never come close to using that terminology, and I don't ever recall writing that. Hey, Salvador Sanchez, Carlos Zarate, Alfonso Zamora, Ruben Olivares and Jose Napoles were five of my favorite fighters at that time. I used to fly from New York to California just to see them fight. So far, the only person we can attribute those words to is you. Please let me know the story I supposedly wrote those words in.

-Randy G.

GPater11093
01-08-2010, 11:50 AM
Greg: You claim I wrote an article in which I stated "All Mexican have two left feet." First you claimed Ron Lipton wrote those words, then switched them to me. I know Ron would never come close to using that terminology, and I don't ever recall writing that. Hey, Salvador Sanchez, Carlos Zarate, Alfonso Zamora, Ruben Olivares and Jose Napoles were five of my favorite fighters at that time. I used to fly from New York to California just to see them fight. So far, the only person we can attribute those words to is you. Please let me know the story I supposedly wrote those words in.

-Randy G.

Really sorry, completly got mixed up for some reason I thought you was Malcolm 'Flash' Gordon. Very sorry about this.

Randy Gordon
01-09-2010, 03:06 PM
No problem, Greg. You won't believe how many people either think I am/was the "Flash" Gordon who put out the underground boxing newsletter from the 70's, "Tonight's Boxing Program." I'm not. He was far more talented & creative! That newsletter was, by far and away, the most interesting, most enjoyable boxing weekly ever put out. I wonder how many of us cyberboxingzone junkies remember that boxing treasure. I still have a few saved copies. Wish they were still coming out.

-Randy "Not Flash" Gordon

GPater11093
01-09-2010, 03:46 PM
No problem, Greg. You won't believe how many people either think I am/was the "Flash" Gordon who put out the underground boxing newsletter from the 70's, "Tonight's Boxing Program." I'm not. He was far more talented & creative! That newsletter was, by far and away, the most interesting, most enjoyable boxing weekly ever put out. I wonder how many of us cyberboxingzone junkies remember that boxing treasure. I still have a few saved copies. Wish they were still coming out.

-Randy "Not Flash" Gordon

haha, sorry about that.

Ive jusat read snippets of it and it is good, however i disagree with alot he says but its nice to see an alternative viewpoint

hawk5ins
01-11-2010, 02:50 PM
of Flash's news letter. ALthough I don't think I ever personally had my own copy.

Back when that was coming out, there were so many boxing publications, I simply took it for granted.

In talking about it now, I am more than a little bummed that I do not have any that I can peruse through as I do so many of my other boxing mags.

Hawk

Randy Gordon
01-11-2010, 04:17 PM
HAWK: In my mind, there was NEVER any publication like TBP. Flash used to stand outside MSG or Sunnyside Garden or the Spectrum in Philly and sell them before the fight card. The work he put in each one was phenomenal.. He was also quite an accomplished artist. He had expressions for just about everyone and everything in boxing. Flash referred to the WBC as the
WB(King) and the WBA as the WB(Arum). He called Ring's former editor, Johnny Ort--Johnny Ort/Bought/Caught. And his upcoming fights were hilarious. If he knew a few card was taking place on a certain time and day, and a few names of the fighters, but not their opponents, he'd write it up something like this:

March 1--Hiram Bithorn Stadium, Puerto Rico--Alfredo Escalera vs. Tyrone Everett (WB{King} Super Featherweight Fixed Title Rematch)
Pedro Estrada vs. Kenny Standup,8 rds., light heavyweights
Pedro Hernandez vs. Otte de Morge, 8 rds., welterweights
Oscar Perez vs. Willie Quitquick, 8 rds., middleweights
Antonio Olivo vs. Kenny Breathe, 6 rds., middleweights
Dmitri Salzberg vs. Moe Saleum, 4 rds., welterweights

I'm telling you, the TBP was the BEST, BEST, BEST boxing newsletter of all time. In there he had his own local, state, US, world & international ratings; breaking news; rumors; upcoming fights; East Coast, Midwest & West Coast happenings, fight previews & reviews & just the best (and funniest) boxing info you have ever seen. And it was in your hands every single week!

After putting his newsletter out through the 1970's and into the 1980's, Flash hit the wall. It was consuming him and he stopped. He then retreated to his home in Sunnyside, Queens, NY, and very few boxing people (I think Jack Obermayer was one of the few) stayed in touch with him.

When I became Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission in 1988, I was paid a surprise visit by Flash, who wanted to both congratulate me and ask if he could check something in our files. As far as I know, that is the last time anyone in boxing saw or spoke with Flash.

He was enjoyable, refreshing, nuts, funny, knowledgeable and totally honest. If he were around and putting out the TBP today, I would buy at least a dozen subscriptions and give them to young workout clients of mine (and to a few older ones, too).

I miss the TBP.

-Randy "I get mistaken for being Flash" Gordon

GPater11093
01-11-2010, 04:51 PM
Sounds brilliant. I did hear he has almost disappeared from boxing, which is a shame.

hawk5ins
01-12-2010, 08:01 AM
proverbial Good Old Days.

Hawk

Ron Lipton
01-12-2010, 10:13 AM
I used to buy every single one of his programs and read it cover to cover 5 times. I rarely missed any fight from the first prelim to the last bout at MSG, the old and new one. I loved Flash's TBP.

I spoke to him a few years ago by E-mail when he sold me the Tiger V Carter MSG boxing program. He told me he never watches or follows boxing anymore which really surprised me.

R

Ron Lipton
01-12-2010, 10:17 AM
Randy,
remember this night at the Metropol.

Ron Lipton


Re: Ron Lipton: Q & A Thread
Gregbeyer wrote,
next comes the rematch. same judges yet now larry rosadilla is the ref.
larry was THAT type and after several rounds of quarry getting his ass kicked trying to make the final bell larry thumbed his nose at the judges , the crowd and the whole quarry clan and stopped it. the place erupted in loud boo's and larry calmly marched back to the dressing room thru a hail of debris. i hollored "hey larry" he spun around and said "what" and i told him it was a good stop... larry looked me right in the eye and said "damn right".

i had so much respect for him that night... well i know YOU know the type.

greg

Reply: Yes I do. I am very proud of the fact that I refereed things always fair to both men, no superstar influenced me ever. I understand a promoter's investment and I understand pro boxing A-Z and how it works.
If they bring a guy into lose, they have the wrong ref with me.

Randy Gordon can tell you a story of what we both went through together at the Metropol one night in NY. It was Russian fighters and favorites on the card. I refereed it fair and square and the judges gave the decision to a kid from Patterson who surprised everyone and beat the favorite.

I admit I have a hair trigger temper if someone is in front of me that I know is pushing the insults, I will fight in a second and have. Randy was my Comm at the time and I must say I respected his cool under fire that night.

This foul mouthed manager started calling the judges every filthy name in the book, then he got on Randy and I was by his side. I was in DEADLY shape, and in the gym every day, next thing I know, this punk starts in on Randy, then me, Randy for appointing the judges and me for refereeing it fair.

Don Elbaum was there with a big sheepish embarrassed look on his face.
They keep it up about how the other guy is supposed to win, and we don't know shit about how pro boxing works because they built up this other kid.

He called us every name in the book and Randy will tell you if he remembers I wanted to smash this foul mouthed punk's face in, my son, Randy, all dragged me away and Randy chilled me out, and he took some fire from this bastard.

All in all, it was a lesson for all of us, for them, you got the wrong set of guys to give anyone an unfair advantage, me, Randy, the judges no way.

Other Commissions, and the refs the promoters want, like Tony Soprano says,
"Forget about it."

I had that kind of pressure put on me many times, it will be in my book, and it will surprise you.
Ron Lipton




Re: Ron Lipton: Q & A Thread
It was in July 92, Dimitri Epishin V Shawn Wilkins,
I had also refereed the Russian fighter killed by the mob and cut up and buried, Sergei Kobezev a different time on ESPN.

Juan C Ayllon
01-12-2010, 11:02 AM
I had also refereed the Russian fighter killed by the mob and cut up and buried, Sergei Kobezev a different time on ESPN.

Hey Ron, I wondered what happened to that fighter, and had read somewhere that there were rumors that the Russian mob may have been responsible for his sudden disappearance. Do you know what happened and why? He seemed like a good prospect, after all.

Thanks,


Juan

gregbeyer
01-12-2010, 12:36 PM
juan,

try wikipedia on sergei kobezev. there is a village voice article at the bottom of the page.

greg

Juan C Ayllon
01-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Thanks, Greg! I'll check it out.

Cheers,


Juan

Juan C Ayllon
01-12-2010, 02:56 PM
Wow! That was an interesting, if disturbing read.

Link to Article (http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-02-19/news/the-murder-of-a-russian-boxer/1)



The Murder of a Russian Boxer
Sergei Kobozev Lost His Last Fight—To Mobsters

Candace Rondeaux
published: February 19, 2002
It is a law of sports physics that to make your mark as a boxer you either move up to heavyweight or die trying. Before his mysterious disappearance in November 1995, cruiserweight contender Sergei Kobozev seemed to have mastered the sweet science. A few years after he emigrated to Brooklyn from St. Petersburg, Russia, the 31-year-old Kobozev was set to bag his second major cruiserweight belt and $100,000 to boot. But a few months before his bout, he was brutally murdered by New York's roughest Russian mob crew. Even now, after two of the three men accused of his murder were recently convicted in a Manhattan federal court and details of Kobozev's death finally emerged, no one but the killers knows the full story. The fact that Alexander Nosov, Vasiliy Ermichine, and Natan Gozman—the three men indicted for the murder—worked for Brighton Beach's Russian mafia group called the "Brigade," and that Gozman is still at large only seems to fan the flames of rumor on the boxing scene. "When he got killed, I was shocked. I got the feeling in my gut that there's more than meets the eye here," says Tommy Gallagher, Kobozev's former trainer at Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn. "This guy was a moneymaker. They're going to tell these guys to whack this kid? There had to be something more to it."

There definitely was more to Sergei Kobozev than his violent end. He first earned his rep fighting for the Soviet national boxing team at the Seoul Olympics in 1988. When he moved to Brighton Beach in 1991 he was part of a wave of Soviet bloc boxers recruited by Gallagher to go pro in the States. If it can be said that Gallagher's "Russian Invasion" briefly took American boxing by storm in the early '90s, then Kobozev was the thunder.

By the time Kobozev absorbed his first loss to cruiserweight challenger Marcello Dominguez in October 1995, he had won 22 consecutive bouts (including one against current WBA heavyweight champ John Ruiz), among them 17 knockouts. Norman "Stoney" Stone, Ruiz's longtime trainer, remembers Kobozev as "a tough kid." "There's no doubt he could have been a heavyweight contender," Stoney says. Of course Gallagher agrees, saying, "He was so easy to work with. He was a great boxer."

When Kobozev disappeared on November 8, 1995, it was such a mystery that his common-law wife, Lina Cherskikh, and Gallagher even consulted Russian émigré psychics about it. The psychics hinted that he might have left Cherskikh for another woman. Weighing in at 190 pounds and just a little over six feet, with blue eyes, light brown hair, and clean-cut good looks, Kobozev sometimes "got into trouble with women," says one friend. Kobozev apparently didn't need the money he earned from his weekend work as a bouncer at the Paradise restaurant, a hot spot in Sheepshead Bay's Russian émigré community. A close friend says Kobozev kept his job at Paradise "for the broads."

It took nearly four years for Brooklyn homicide detectives and the FBI to discover for sure that Kobozev hadn't gone on a romp. His corpse turned up with a broken neck in March 1999 in a shallow grave in the backyard of a home owned by Alexander Spitchenko of Livingston, New Jersey. As it turned out, Kobozev lost his last fight during a confrontation with hoods in an auto-body shop on East 15th Street in Brooklyn. Spitchenko, after making a deal with authorities, laid out the story in court.

Spitchenko, who arrived in Brighton Beach in 1991, was not only a master extortionist; he later became the Brigade's No. 2 man in New York. By Spitchenko's own account given at Nosov and Ermichine's trial in early December, the Brigade (headed by famed godfather Vyacheslav Ivankov until 1995) ran "hundreds" of protection scams on Brighton Beach businesses. "We strong-armed people and collected money, extorted, stole, did counterfeit credit cards," Spitchenko explained to a hushed courtroom. When the Brigade's victims refused to cooperate, Spitchenko offered a solution: "We beat them up."

The Brigade's operations added up to a smorgasbord of petty theft, prostitution, and, most importantly, protection rackets. In one extortion case described by Spitchenko, he and Ermichine raided a Brooklyn clothing retailer and made off with $3000 worth of high-quality suits. The heist was only one part of an elaborate ruse the Brigade deployed to force the petrified store owner to accept their protection scheme. Soon after the robbery, Ermichine returned to the store with Spitchenko in tow. "I had a baseball bat on me," Spitchenko told jurors. "The owner of the store was hiding from us." He said he shouted at the owner, "If we catch you, we'll break your legs."

During the trial, Spitchenko gave detailed testimony on Brigade operations and Kobozev's run-in with Nosov, Gozman, and Ermichine on that chilly November afternoon in 1995. The boxer had gone to the auto-body shop to have his car worked on. Instead, he was the one who got worked on.

Spitchenko and several other members of the Brigade were indicted on federal racketeering charges in the spring of 1999. In exchange for testifying against his friends, Spitchenko copped to charges of racketeering and accessory to murder. He got a plea deal that will reduce his sentence and place his family in the Federal Witness Protection Program.

Prosecutors used Spitchenko's testimony to support their theory that when the hoods saw Kobozev at the auto-body shop, the Brigade's 24-year-old bad boy Nosov was still smarting from a bar brawl he was involved in that Kobozev had broken up at Paradise a couple of days before. Defense lawyers attempted to portray the brawl as an extension of Spitchenko's rumored feud with the club's former owner, Valera Zimnovitsch. A sources familiar with the case doubts the prosecution's theory that Nosov's loss of face to Kobozev at Paradise was the only motive for the killing.

Daniel Nobel, defense attorney for Ermichine, says a court ruling on his cross-examination of Spitchenko prevented him from countering the mob boss's testimony against his client. "He's basically a dirtbag," Nobel says of Spitchenko. "But he claims to have undergone this very radical change of character since he was arrested." Though Nobel says he considers the Kobozev murder a secondary element of the much larger case against his client, he speculated that Kobozev's relationship with Paradise owner Zemnovitsch might not have been entirely innocent. "In his testimony, Zemnovitsch described his relationship with Kobozev as 'friendly,' "says Nobel. "I would hazard a guess that if you dig deeply enough you might unearth at least a friendly relationship between Zemnovitsch and a lot of the people the government is currently investigating."

Nakhman Gluzman, a worker at the garage where Kobozev was killed, testified that the boxer did not seem surprised when Nosov and his friends showed up. Instead of kicking up a fuss, Kobozev allowed Nosov to throw an arm around his shoulder and guide him to a small office attached to the garage. In court, Assistant U.S. Attorney Robert Buehler attributed the false camaraderie to Kobozev's overconfidence in his fighting skills. "As a professional fighter, Kobozev probably thought he had nothing to worry about," said Buehler.

The truth about what Kobozev and Nosov discussed may never be revealed. What is certain, at least according to testimony, is that in the heat of the struggle Nosov pulled out a gun and shot Kobozev in the back. Minutes after the shot, Gozman and Nosov hefted the crumpled boxer to their Grand Cherokee and dumped him in the back. Still conscious during the first few minutes of his journey to his grave in Spitchenko's backyard, prosecutors said, Kobozev "begged for his life." But a mercy plea to Spitchenko's boys proved a waste of his breath.

After depositing Kobozev's black-and-white 1988 Chevy Blazer just a few miles from the garage at a 24-hour restaurant called the Petrina Diner, the men drove around aimlessly for hours, according to testimony, while they cooked up a plan to get rid of Kobozev's body. It was late at night when they finally arrived on Spitchenko's doorstep in New Jersey looking for a way out. In his testimony, Spitchenko insisted that he did not take part in the actual murder and that it was Ermichine who broke Kobozev's neck. Whatever the case, that night in Jersey, Kobozev was KO'd for good.

With Gozman still on the loose, the only thing Kobozev's friends and family have to look forward to is Nosov and Ermichine's sentencing in May. Seven years after the boxer's death the only thing those who knew him are certain of is that Kobozev did not go down without a fight. "Even when he lost, he maintained his dignity. He kept his head up," Gallagher said.

Mike DeLisa
01-12-2010, 04:48 PM
The other guy involved was found in 2005 and brought back to NYC. I believe he is now a govt snitch:

RUSSIAN HAULED BACK TO CITY IN BOXER'S SLAY
BY ALISON GENDAR DAILY NEWS POLICE BUREAU CHIEF

Friday, February 25th 2005, 6:41AM

A NOTORIOUS Russian mobster wanted in the senseless slaying of a boxing champ 10 years ago was brought to New York from Europe last night to face charges, authorities said.

Natan Gozman, who had been sought for years by Interpol in a series of killings - including the slaying of Russian émigré fighter Sergei Kobozev - was picked up in Poland Tuesday by the NYPD-FBI joint task force.

"Gotcha!" said Tommy Gallagher, Kobozev's former trainer at Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn. "Ten years this punk has been running. He killed my boy for no other reason than to show he was a big man."

Kobozev, 31, a U.S. Boxing Association cruiserweight champion, disappeared from Brooklyn in 1995.

Investigators at first thought the handsome, 6-foot ladies' man was out on the town. Then, in 1999, his body turned up in a shallow grave outside the New Jersey home of another Russian mobster, Alexander Spitchenko.

Investigators traced the killing to Kobozev's work as a bouncer at Sheepshead Bay's Paradise Bar, where he had ejected Gozman, Alexander Nosov and Vasiliy Ermichine after they got into a brawl.

The trio was still smarting when they encountered Kobozev a few days later at a local auto body shop. Nosov shot the boxer in the back, then all three bundled his body into a car and drove him around, according to testimony. Ermichine later broke his neck and the body was dumped in the grave. Nosov and Ermichine were convicted of murder in 2001.

"They were hoods. They came here from Russia with one goal in mind - to do extortions and terrorize their own people," Gallagher said.

In his life on the lam, Gozman hid in Europe and Israel before returning to his homeland in the Ukraine. There he married a local woman, bought cars and was setting up a business under a false name.

Gozman was arrested in the Ukraine in May on charges of using forged documents. He was sent to Warsaw for transfer to New York, where he faces racketeering, weapons and murder charges, officials said.

agendar@nydailynews.com

Mike DeLisa
01-12-2010, 04:49 PM
Yes, I was correct -- Grozman turned snitch:

Witness Reveals Murderous Past
by Charles Sweeney (charles@brooklyneagle.net), published online 07-30-2007


Testifies to Avoid Life Sentence for
Murder, Kidnap of Boxing Champ
By Charles Sweeney
Brooklyn Daily Eagle
JAY STREET — Though his conservative appearance and soft-spoken manner suggested dignity and reserve, once yesterday’s witness began to reveal details of a criminal past that included robbery, burglary, extortion, assault, kidnapping and murder, a very different picture began to emerge.

“Me and my guys, we were into extortion, robbery, things like that,” said Natan Grozman, admitting to murder as casually as if he were discussing the weather.

By his own account yesterday, Grozman’s presence in the ceremonial courtroom was a self-serving one, as he outlined his current legal woes and their subsequent legal consequences.

Facing the possibility of several life sentences for crimes ranging from murder and kidnapping to extortion and robbery, Grozman struck a deal with federal prosecutors in exchange for favorable consideration at his upcoming sentencing in federal court.

As per his agreement, Grozman is required to provide details of any crime he committed in the past, as well as any knowledge he might possess of crimes committed by others.

Grozman’s criminal exploits were part of Executive Assistant District Attorney John Holmes’ attempt to anticipate what is expected to be a cross-examination by defense attorneys with a heavy focus on the witness’s criminal past.

Holmes hopes that yesterday’s final session of direct testimony, taken in conjunction with Wednesday’s revelations, will convince jurors of the guilt of the two defendants facing murder charges for two 15-year-old mob-linked homicides.

Before Holmes handed the witness over to the defense, he had Grozman sketch out the details of the protection scam that was part of the daily activities of a notoriou4sly violent crew known in Brighton Beach as “the brigade.”

“Brigade” members would prey on fearful Russian émigré storeowners and businessmen, extorting up to a “half-million dollars a year,” according to Grozman.

Currently facing sentencing on charges of murder in aid of racketeering, kidnapping and robbery, Grozman’s testimony against defendants Marat Krivoi and Vitaly Ivanitsky may be his last hope to avoid a life-without-parole sentence.

Revealing Cross
Seizing on his audacious career of crime and violence, Ivanitsky’s defense attorney, Kenneth Montgomery, began his cross-examination of 29-year-old Grozman by attempting to sort out the exact details of the latest violent crime spree that led to his presence in court.

An article in yesterday’s Daily Eagle provided an outline of the murder of a Russian émigré boxer who was shot, beaten to death and buried in the New Jersey backyard of “Brigade” member Alexander Spitchenko.

Even as his two accomplices stood trial for the killing of Sergei Kobozev, a nationally-ranked boxer with whom he’d had an altercation at a Sheepshead Bay restaurant, Grozman was already thousands of miles away.

Using falsified documents that apparently aroused no suspicions, Grozman made his way back to his native Ukraine via the not-so-popular Mexico-Cuba-Moscow-Kiev route, his false identity allowing him eventual passage to his country of origin.

Plain Talk
Montgomery’s questions elicited a different picture than the one of a repentant criminal finally seeing the error of his ways, an image Grozman projected under the gentle questioning of prosecutors. Montgomery’s cross-examination yesterday revealed Grozman as a calculating schemer, always using a situation to his advantage — including his strategy of giving federal authorities information on Kobozev’s murder in a piecemeal fashion.

“I kept my participation to a minimum,” was how he characterized the version of Kobozev’s murder he gave during an exchange with the two federal agents during the flight back to the United States from Poland, where Grozman had flown earlier in the company of U.S. embassy officials from the Ukraine. In “a dozen or so” more meetings with the feds back in the U.S., Grozman detailed his extortion racket as well as the murder of Yannick Magasayev, a crime he committed when he was a mere 15 years old. Montgomery also questioned Grozman about the FBI interview in which he was asked about his participation in the murder of a police officer. While acknowledging the interview, Grozman denied having anything to do with the murder of Officer Ralph Dols.

Snitching on former cohorts is not something new to Grozman. During his testimony yesterday, Grozman revealed that he’d given up fellow Brigade member Vasily Ermichine during a session with FBI agents looking into the murder of an Atlantic City pawnbroker.

Montgomery’s cross-examination also revealed that at no time during his first meetings with federal authorities did he mention Krivoi or Ivanitsky.

“Before talking about everything I wanted to consult a lawyer,” Grozman said.

As for Magasayev’s murder, Grozman had a far more pedestrian motive for that killing.

“I wanted to impress her,” he said, referring to the girlfriend of fellow Brigade crewmember Pyotr Sarkisov, who spent nearly all of last week testifying for the prosecution.

Drug History
Several times during questioning by Holmes, Grozman revealed he’d taken drugs — both for social reasons and lately, in jail, due to stress and sleeplessness.

Despite admitting to the use of ketamine, marijuana, cocaine, LSD and shooting up heroin, Grozman insisted he was not an addict, that he was never “impaired” by his drug use.

“I began using heroin in ’94,” Grozman said. “Right before we did Yannick, before we killed him.” Grozman was advised to snort the drug in order to relax, and better accomplish the task at hand — his role in the murder of Magasayev when he was a mere 15 years old.

“I shot up a couple times, but I really didn’t use it all that often.”

While an inmate in federal custody, Grozman admitted to wrangling sleeping pills from doctors, writing notes asking for a consultation. Starting with sedatives, Grozman began a series of medications prescribed for mental illness as well as sleeplessness and stress, though he denied using any medication for long periods.

Montgomery sought to portray Grozman as a sociopathic killer, a drug addict and liar, a man who would manipulate and kill — capable of completely amoral behavior of any sort, if it benefited him. In many ways, this has been a routine characterization in a trial marked by its portraits of organized crime and criminals without conscience committing violent crimes — and the endless cycle of snitching and plea-bargaining that have rotated the same crop of sociopaths out of jail early.

Though Grozman’s crimes may be legion, he is hoping his performance before yesterday’s juries will help him avoid a life sentence.

Provided that Montgomery’s cross-examination is complete by this morning, today’s session will feature Krivoi’s defense attorney, David Breitbart.

Selective English?
During one part of his cross-examination on Thursday, Montgomery attacked Grozman’s credibility on another level, claiming his use of a Russian interpreter during the trial was disingenuous, given the fact that he wrote several notes to a doctor in federal prison and conducted several interviews without an interpreter present.

In August 2005, Grozman even dismissed a court-appointed interpreter at his plea allocution in federal court, during which he was asked if he “read and understood” the legal documents before him as he prepared to plead guilty to several felonies.

“I understood English, but there’s a lot of words that I don’t understand,” Grozman said. “Also, there’s a lot of terms that I don’t understand.”

As he spoke, Montgomery commented on the smile forming on Grozman’s lips, for which the witness immediately defended himself, characterizing the perpetual grin twisting the sides of his thick mouth, regardless of the subject of his testimony, as an unfortunate anatomical anomaly.

“I’m not smiling,” Grozman protested, the grin forming even as he spoke. “It’s just an expression I’ve had on my face, I’ve had it since childhood,” he said, smiling.

© Brooklyn Daily Eagle 2007

Juan C Ayllon
01-12-2010, 05:10 PM
Wow, these are some pretty scary people. Thanks for sharing those articles, Mike!

Ron Lipton
01-12-2010, 11:56 PM
I have taught many self defense classes over the years.
I have worked in many nightclubs as security and am a former police officer,
I would say this as a finite rule NEVER to be compromised.
Never let an enemy into your body space, never.

Be rude, be final, but never let them get close.
It was an honor to referee such a brave fighter.

R

robertk
01-13-2010, 06:26 AM
HAWK: In my mind, there was NEVER any publication like TBP. Flash used to stand outside MSG or Sunnyside Garden or the Spectrum in Philly and sell them before the fight card. The work he put in each one was phenomenal.. He was also quite an accomplished artist. He had expressions for just about everyone and everything in boxing. Flash referred to the WBC as the
WB(King) and the WBA as the WB(Arum). He called Ring's former editor, Johnny Ort--Johnny Ort/Bought/Caught. And his upcoming fights were hilarious. If he knew a few card was taking place on a certain time and day, and a few names of the fighters, but not their opponents, he'd write it up something like this:

March 1--Hiram Bithorn Stadium, Puerto Rico--Alfredo Escalera vs. Tyrone Everett (WB{King} Super Featherweight Fixed Title Rematch)
Pedro Estrada vs. Kenny Standup,8 rds., light heavyweights
Pedro Hernandez vs. Otte de Morge, 8 rds., welterweights
Oscar Perez vs. Willie Quitquick, 8 rds., middleweights
Antonio Olivo vs. Kenny Breathe, 6 rds., middleweights
Dmitri Salzberg vs. Moe Saleum, 4 rds., welterweights

I'm telling you, the TBP was the BEST, BEST, BEST boxing newsletter of all time. In there he had his own local, state, US, world & international ratings; breaking news; rumors; upcoming fights; East Coast, Midwest & West Coast happenings, fight previews & reviews & just the best (and funniest) boxing info you have ever seen. And it was in your hands every single week!

After putting his newsletter out through the 1970's and into the 1980's, Flash hit the wall. It was consuming him and he stopped. He then retreated to his home in Sunnyside, Queens, NY, and very few boxing people (I think Jack Obermayer was one of the few) stayed in touch with him.

When I became Chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission in 1988, I was paid a surprise visit by Flash, who wanted to both congratulate me and ask if he could check something in our files. As far as I know, that is the last time anyone in boxing saw or spoke with Flash.

He was enjoyable, refreshing, nuts, funny, knowledgeable and totally honest. If he were around and putting out the TBP today, I would buy at least a dozen subscriptions and give them to young workout clients of mine (and to a few older ones, too).

I miss the TBP.

-Randy "I get mistaken for being Flash" Gordon

Agree wholeheartedly. The best boxing publication ever and 2nd place is a distance behind.

Do you remember how Flash would just not take to certain fighters though? Like Salvador Sanchez for example. Man, he just never took to the guy. And I really did believe in an awful lot of those opinions and that batting average of his was as fine as anyone in the sport. I miss that.

Randy Gordon
01-14-2010, 04:37 PM
Ron: Oh yeh, I remember that night in Brooklyn well, when you and I were threatened by those wise-guy wannabes. Punks! Lowlife vermin! Their guy lost by decision, and suddenly you, the judges and I came under fire from the creepazoid backers of the Russian fighter, Dmitri Epishin. Under the circumstances, I really think we all did a great job not tearing into them. I remember thinking "Geez, I can't believe I'm about to be in what is sure to be an all-out, arena-clearing brawl!" Do you know what held me back? One thing: My in-laws and wife were with me that night. Had they not been there, I am sure you, me, NYSAC Inspector Georgie Ward (a mountain of a man), Inspector Bob Duffy (a former NYC cop) and judge Ron McNair (who was then and still is a member of the NYPD, would have cleaned their miserable asses but good. I just didn't want my in-laws to witness a scene that really could have caused heart attacks. Had they not been there, I am sure something quite ugly would have taken place.

As we got in the car to go home, there was a brief moment of silence as we pulled away from the nightclub. Then, my father-in-law broke the silence with this: "Well, Mr. Commissioner. You sure know how to throw one heck of an entertaining party! Do you have this kind of excitement at every show?" I just rolled my eyes.

Thanks for controlling your temper that night. It always is better to difuse a situation like that than to let it explode into something potentially very dangerous (but there still is something inside of me that says I wish we had beaten the snot out of them!!!).

-Randy G.

Randy Gordon
01-14-2010, 06:18 PM
I heard the news this morning about the passing of sportscaster/sportswriter Art Rust Jr. Many of you who aren't from the New York/NJ/CT area have no idea who Art Rust Jr. was. Well, I wish there were more radio talkies like him. You see, Art Rust loved boxing. Every major fight--and fighter--of the 1980's was discussed on his ABC Radio talk show. Today, listen to a major sports talk station like NY's WFAN. It's football, baseball, basketball and hockey...football, baseball, basketball and hockey. Aside from their all-night guy, Tony Paige--who loves boxing--our beloved sport is rarely discussed on WFAN, the largest AM sports staion in the country. One of their morning guys had no clue to to pronounce Manny Pacquaio's last name, calling him everything from Pac/COW to Pah/Quee/Oh.

Art Rust loved his boxing. And during my years as Editor-in-Chief of The Ring, I was on his show almost every time there was a major fight (which back then, was a lot!). Rust couldn't get enough of boxing.

After his beloved wife Edna, passed away in 1986, Rust slowed down terribly. He began ending every show with "Goodnight, Edna baby."

He had what is widely believed to be a gambling problem (the ponies), and began to borrow vast amounts of money from both his listeners and guests. I know that Gil Clancy loaned Rust a few thousand, but was one of the few who got his money back. I had heard about Art's problem, and turned him down on several occasions for loans of up to $5,000. Many of those listeners were able to get together and exchange stories of Rust telling them to "hold the line," then talk to them during a break. Later, he'd call them back, talk some sports with them, and then, when he felt they were comfortable with him off the air, he'd hit them for a loan. When all of this came to the attention of the bigwigs at ABC, Rust was gone.

Clancy was never angry at Rust for what he had done. Neither am I. Maybe others are, and if they lost thousands, just the way investors lost money with Bernard Madoff, they should be angry.

But for me, with all the play Rust gave boxing, and for teaching me the nuances of radio announcing, I certainly can forgive him. His gambling was an addiction--a sickness--that consumed him at the time.

Art Rust once told me, "I really need boxing. I need to have it and talk about it." Well, boxing needed him, too.

From so many of his fans: Goodnight, Arthur, baby.

-Randy G.

hawk5ins
01-14-2010, 07:38 PM
Art Rust was one of those who when it came to picking a winner on a fight, I keenly listened or read what he had to say. To compare it to my selection.

Obviously to make myself feel better if the picks matched and then to sweat it out if they didn't.

When I saw he was going with Hearns in the Hagler bout, I felt so confident Tommy would win.

That was one of the very few times I recall him picking the wrong guy.

I was never privvy to his personal life and only knew the boxing guy. The man knew his stuff and he was so informative on the sport it was amazing.

He will be missed.

Hawk

Ron Lipton
01-14-2010, 07:41 PM
Ron: Oh yeh, I remember that night in Brooklyn well, when you and I were threatened by those wise-guy wannabes. Punks! Lowlife vermin! Their guy lost by decision, and suddenly you, the judges and I came under fire from the creepazoid backers of the Russian fighter, Dmitri Epishin. Under the circumstances, I really think we all did a great job not tearing into them. I remember thinking "Geez, I can't believe I'm about to be in what is sure to be an all-out, arena-clearing brawl!" Do you know what held me back? One thing: My in-laws and wife were with me that night. Had they not been there, I am sure you, me, NYSAC Inspector Georgie Ward (a mountain of a man), Inspector Bob Duffy (a former NYC cop) and judge Ron McNair (who was then and still is a member of the NYPD, would have cleaned their miserable asses but good. I just didn't want my in-laws to witness a scene that really could have caused heart attacks. Had they not been there, I am sure something quite ugly would have taken place.

As we got in the car to go home, there was a brief moment of silence as we pulled away from the nightclub. Then, my father-in-law broke the silence with this: "Well, Mr. Commissioner. You sure know how to throw one heck of an entertaining party! Do you have this kind of excitement at every show?" I just rolled my eyes.

Thanks for controlling your temper that night. It always is better to difuse a situation like that than to let it explode into something potentially very dangerous (but there still is something inside of me that says I wish we had beaten the snot out of them!!!).

-Randy G.


Ron: That was something and that's coming from me a former bouncer in many clubs. We ate a lot of water with a fork that night, humble pie a la mode. Had to, you were the Commish and me an official, we did right.

Do you know that I am the only one I believe that has films of those fights. I thought the Russian lost that match fair and square too.
I remember refereeing Jimmy McMahon Teddy Atlas' fighter and I have that film, I think I sent it to Teddy a couple of years ago.

Miss the good old days. Too bad about Art Rust Jr, I read him all the time.

Phillyfan
01-15-2010, 06:10 PM
http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp999%3Enu%3D32%3B8%3E242%3E%3B6%3B%3E WSNRCG%3D3332693854335nu0mrj

I got to meet kobozev in 1992. He was a pretty good fighter from what I remember. Good card that night, ruiz debut and buddy mcgirt. The big surprise was jersey joe walcott was there. I didn't even recoginze him and it was the first and only time I saw him.

Ron Lipton
01-16-2010, 07:54 PM
In the second part of the Brian Kenny piece with me, you can see me refereeing
Kobozev on ESPN, he is in the white trunks pounding the other fighter on the ropes when I stop the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBHQr-UB-Uo

Ron Lipton
01-20-2010, 11:09 PM
Randy when you posted this in late August, what fight was Mercante Sr trying to take away from Junior for himself?

08-31-2009, 12:59 PM #5

Randy Gordon
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Long Island, NY Some unique Mercante-isms
________________________________________
I had written a response to the Arthur Mercante Jr. interview a few days ago, but for whatever reason, the post didn't "take." Oh well. Here goes again.

I thought the interview was extremely weak, at best. Had this been a journalism class I was teaching, I was have given the writer--Dave Tyler--a D-plus. He came off throughout the interview sounding like an Arthur Mercante Jr. & Sr. groupie. There was not one tough question in there....there was no correcting Mercante Jr.'s mistakes...there was no questioning his answers. It was...oh, read the interview for yourself. You'll see.

Arthur Jr. is his father's son. He should respect his father. He should love him. He should adore him. He should idolize him. He does all of those things. I think that's great. But I don't have to feel that way about the old man. To me, he is one of the most pompous, arrogant, condescending, self-promoting, self-righteous phonies I have EVER known.

One time, Sir Arthur was pushing hard to become the referee for a WBC title fight in New York, despite the fact I had already inserted another referee. Sir Arthur wanted that referee removed and put on the undercard. Sir Arthur even went so far as to have WBC President Jose Sulaiman telephone me and plead Sir Arthur's case to work the main event. I told both Senor Sulaiman and Sir Arthur that I was sticking with my original choice for referee. Sulaiman accepted my choice, but not before threatening to pull his sanction of the fight (which he really wouldn't do because of the sanctioning fee he would lose). Sir Arthur brooded. He hasn't stopped brooding! Oh, by the way, the referee I had put in who was so heavily objected to by Sir Arthur and Sulaiman was Arthur Mercante Jr. Sir Arthur was jealous of his own son, his namesake. I told him to check his ego at the door.

Oh, shock! Commissioner Gordon is ripping Sir Arthur Mercante, the Hall-of-Fame referee.

Hall-of-Fame. That's a laugh. On his best day, Mercante was not any kind of boxing authority or expert. He was a good referee, that's it. A good referee who happened to have the political juice to get some plum assignments. He was not a great referee. He was a good one. And well-conditioned. He gave a good appearance with that flat stomach and trim waist. But his boxing knowledge was minimal and his beliefs were archaic.

One day, in my final year as commissioner, Sir Arthur said to me, "If you really want to set yourself apart from other commissions and take a lead, why don't you think about a few suggestions I have for rules changes." I listened. As I did, my mouth dropped open in shock.

One of Sir Arthur's suggestions was to have the referee as the LONE official. No judges, just a scoring referee. Go read that again! He then added, "If you don't like that, let the referee be a fourth judge, used to break deadlocks."

And how about this one, which he used to push at me ad nauseum: "Bring back SAVING BY THE BELL IN ANY ROUND." He would say "It will give a fighter a chance to come back the next round after being dropped." I continually had to remind Sir Arthur that, in greater likelihood, it would send a semi-conscious fighter back into battle the next round to be knocked out for a second time and increase his risk of being seriously injured.

After I left the NYSAC in 1995, Sir Arthur pushed hard for my post. Thankfully, in one of his rare good moves concerning the NYSAC, Gov. George Pataki turned Sir Arthur down.

On a bad note, he brought on the duo of Floyd Patterson (severe dementia)/Tony Russo (convicted felon & crooked). But that's a story for another time!

-Randy G.

gregbeyer
01-21-2010, 12:17 AM
would love to hear the patterson-russo story.

greg

Randy Gordon
01-21-2010, 01:06 PM
RON: I think the fight that old man Arthur Mercante was trying to keep me from giving to Artie Jr. was the January 12, 1993, bout between Buddy McGirt & Genaro Leon. I wanted Papa Mercante to work the 10-round bout that night between Kevin Kelley & Peter Nieves, and for Junior to work the McGirt-Leon bout. As I recall, it was shown on USA Network, and they wanted to do a piece on the Mercante's.

Old Man Mercante's ego wouldn't allow him to take a "back seat" to his son--his namesake--and he fought me every step of the way in trying to get me to appoint him as the title fight ref. He went so far as to have both Bobby Goodman, the President of MSG Boxing and Jose Sulaiman of the WBC call me to plead Mercante's case. Sulaiman even said, "Randy, I would like to have Arthur Mercante work the fight. If hedoesn't, I may pull the sanction on the fight." I promised him Mercante WOULD work. I kept my promise. Mercante was the ref. Mercante Jr. Sulaiman wasn't happy. But I wasn't in that job to make Sulaiman happy.

USA Network didn't get to do their feature piece on the Mercante's, because Old Man Mercante turned down the Kelley-Nieves fight. He said it was the McGirt-Leon fight or nothing. I gave him nothing.

And of course, in the years after I left, Mercante Jr. never developed into the ref I thought he would become.

-Randy G.

gregbeyer
01-21-2010, 02:47 PM
under the circumstances i understand if you would rather not discuss the patterson - russo thing.

greg

Randy Gordon
01-21-2010, 03:27 PM
GREG: Even before Floyd Patterson was officially nominated by Gov. George "Wacky" Pataki to replace me in 1995, and before any of the "New York Negatives"--the so-called boxing writers of the New York media could write about the commission changeover--I called Floyd to congratulate him. As a friend and somebody I had spoken to on a regular basis, I knew his memory was failing him--quickly. By the time I called him in mid-June, 1995, he was forgetting things we had spoken about minutes ago. So, going into my job, I knew Patterson would not be able to handle it. However, out of respect for Floyd, I told only my wife that there was no way he could handle the job and that I felt sorry for him.

Floyd knew he'd be overwhelmed in his job, so he requested--and got permission from Gov. Wacky's office--to bring on a close friend of his with "knowledge of the inner workings of boxing." The close friend was Tony Russo, a convicted felon who had been serving as Patterson's driver. He had about as much reason and skill to be running a state athletic commission as I do performing open heart surgery! Quickly, the New York State Athletic Commission became a joke. They took seven years of hard work by myself, my right-hand man--Rich Hering--and our staff, and ripped it apart. Just read the expose done in the New York Post around 2001 (I'll chek that date for all of you). Patterson was rapidly becoming mentally inept and Tony Russo was crooked. Together, along with a few other political appointees, they made a horrendous commission. In fact, it may have become the worst commission of all time. From first to worst!

Russo passed on a few years ago. I only wish he had lived to take the stand at the lawsuit involving the weigh-in he fixed involving Arturo Gatti & Joey Gamache.

It was a shame what they did to that commission! And a crime!

-Randy G.

Ron Lipton
01-21-2010, 09:25 PM
RON: I think the fight that old man Arthur Mercante was trying to keep me from giving to Artie Jr. was the January 12, 1993, bout between Buddy McGirt & Genaro Leon. I wanted Papa Mercante to work the 10-round bout that night between Kevin Kelley & Peter Nieves, and for Junior to work the McGirt-Leon bout. As I recall, it was shown on USA Network, and they wanted to do a piece on the Mercante's.

Old Man Mercante's ego wouldn't allow him to take a "back seat" to his son--his namesake--and he fought me every step of the way in trying to get me to appoint him as the title fight ref. He went so far as to have both Bobby Goodman, the President of MSG Boxing and Jose Sulaiman of the WBC call me to plead Mercante's case. Sulaiman even said, "Randy, I would like to have Arthur Mercante work the fight. If hedoesn't, I may pull the sanction on the fight." I promised him Mercante WOULD work. I kept my promise. Mercante was the ref. Mercante Jr. Sulaiman wasn't happy. But I wasn't in that job to make Sulaiman happy.

USA Network didn't get to do their feature piece on the Mercante's, because Old Man Mercante turned down the Kelley-Nieves fight. He said it was the McGirt-Leon fight or nothing. I gave him nothing.

And of course, in the years after I left, Mercante Jr. never developed into the ref I thought he would become.

-Randy G.


RL: Man that is incredible, just horrible. People that know me well, know I NEVER, EVER, started trouble with anyone. Both of them did bad things to me first behind my back to take fights away and discredit me.

I know Senior is old now, but so was my Father and so are we all and I don't wish him ill. I know I was always respectful to him and the kid but I got nothing but disrespect back and I am no Quaker.
They went out of their way to call the cornermen of Jesse James Leija telling them I was too inexperienced to do the DLH fight.
Mercante Sr had refereed 13 pro fights before Patterson v Johannson.
Junior refereed 31 pro fights before his first title fight.
Yet I refereed 32 fights and a title fight at that time. Go figure.

I remember Mercante Sr trying to control you and take your job. It was as a good friend of mine would say, "Unctuous."

You are right about Jr, before he helped to kill B. Scotland with his negligence he had a string of the most horrible and totally unexplainable referee performances I ever saw. Here are two of them on You Tube.
The Scotland v Jones fight with Kellerman and others screaming for the fight to be stopped was horrible.


1. Whitiker v Hurtado
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r10UhTO9JaI


2. Charles Murray V Reggie Green

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fVHQAWh-r0


3.Mercante Jr as the referee mocking Melvina Lathan's decision publicly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r1m9Xv4btY


4.Mercante Sr imitation of a "Black Voice" mocking Joe Frazier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYM_9RY3u6I


Ron

gregbeyer
01-22-2010, 01:55 AM
thank you randy.

poor floyd. sounds like the old champ was in over his head.

i am from the left coast and never heard that story.

greg