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bomma
06-27-2005, 12:10 PM
Since no one answered my points about Harris in the Mayweather vs Gatti thread I thought I would start a new one. Harris' performances that was one of the worst choke jobs I have ever seen in boxing. All he did was try for the big KO and didn't use any of his skills to fight this guy. I am sorry but Manny Steward needs to take a hit for this too, Kellerman said as much saying Manny is like an offensive Coordinator that becomes a head coach in football. I think that is a great analysis. How many times do we have to hear that Manny's guys come into a fight over trained. I mean your the trainer tell them to take a brake, and how many of Mannys guys come into a fight head hunting don't get the KO and then end up KOed, Hearns, McClellen (I know Manny wasn't his trainer that night but he was up until that point), Klitchko and now Harris. I love Manny he is a great guy and a true HOFer but Mannys guys never have a back up plan.

Molly
06-27-2005, 12:31 PM
I agree with you that some of the blame has to be put on Steward. It is part of the trainer's responsibility to control the training for a fight and let the fighter know that he either isn't doing enough or he's doing too much. After a trainer works with a boxer for a while he gets to know what that particular fighter is capeable of and how much training he will need to do. You should be able to recognize when your boxer is fading in sparring due to overtraining (or undertraining). I also think that the trainer needs to recognize when a big fight is putting so much pressure on their guy. Harris definately folded under the pressure of this fight and trying to talk him down in the corner is too little too late. Steward's former fighters also seemed to have a problem with overtraining, so maybe bomma is onto something. Seems like a pattern is developing.

Todd Hodgson
06-27-2005, 12:32 PM
The funny thing is when Harris finally did bother to do what Manny had been pleading with him to do -- throw a left hook -- he immediately got KO'd.

Here's the KO: LINK (http://x4.putfile.com/6/17623103274.gif)

Chuck1052
06-27-2005, 03:50 PM
I thought Vivian Harris fought an incrediably stupid
fight, too. He was loading up and throwing
roundhouse punches at Carlos Maussa's head.
At the same time, Maussa was weaving alot,
which meant that Harris was missing alot.
To add to Harris's troubles, he was not
active enough while Maussa seemed
tireless.

First, Harris should have thrown short
punches. He also should have thrown
more punches to the body. Since Harris
had some success with his jab, why didn't
he use it more?

Taking a look at Harris before the bout, one
would have thought that he was in shape. But
he seemed to tire easily. It could be that
Harris overtrained, but I think another reason
for his fatigue could have been his nervousness
before the bout. According to Emmanuel Steward,
Harris was keyed up before the bout because he
wanted to make a big impression. That type of
thing can make one tired even before the bout
starts.

- Chuck Johnston

crold1
06-27-2005, 04:55 PM
McClellan is not an argument against Manny because his problems didn't result from anything involving Manny. You're reaching. Steward also is a case for a guy who can do something with athletes that listen. Holy, Lewis, McCall...they all did fine with Manny

AEP2
06-27-2005, 04:56 PM
I don't think the problem with Harris was overtraining. The problem was that Harris fought a very dumb fight. Some of those hooks he was throwing almost knocked out people in the third row. Harris was trying to impress the PPV audience. He admitted such after the fight to Merchant. It reminded me of the Junior Jones-Kennedy McKinney undercard fight to Hamed-Kelley. Jones came in the fight trying to blast McKinney out but ended up getting knocked out himself. In the interview after the fight, Jones told Merchant that he fought a bad fight because he was thinking ahead to a big money fight with Hamed and wanted to make an impression. Fighters who feel nervous or pressure sometimes come out wanting to blast the opponent. You see it all the time in amateur bouts. Some guy comes out throwing bombs and by the second or third round he's out of gas and ready to be taken. You can see it in their body language that they are nervous and their panic response is to throw bombs. The remarkable thing here was that Harris is a top professional, a belt holder.

Molly
06-27-2005, 06:28 PM
I agree with chuck that Harris fought a really dumb fight. Totally wrong for this situation. But he was only good for about the first minute of each round and then he tired to the point where he just couldn't work at all. He should have jabbed a lot more and worked on finding the guy before trying to lay him out with big shots. But it's hard to jab more when you have no energy. Nervousness was also a factor in his fatigue I'm sure. But someone who is in shape and trained properly shouldn't be out of gas after two or three rounds regardless of how nervous they were before the fight.

StingerKarl
06-27-2005, 11:30 PM
Well Kellerman dosen't know anything about boxing first of all.
Secondly; if anyone feels that strongly about Mr Steward: they can go the Kronk and prove themselves.
I am sure accomodations will be made for them to test their manhood. And am ambulance will be nearby as well I am certain of that. Mr Steward is one of the finest trainers of the last 30 years and has more than paid his dues running a bankrupt gym for no pay a lot of the time while working 60 hours a week for Edison Electric. Mr Steward has dedicated his life to boxing and is a selfless man who has done a lot of people a lot of good. Not some punk behind a microphone that lacks the courage to enter the ring himself-not even once-and prove himself.
Karl

diggity1
06-28-2005, 02:53 AM
Harris blew it with nerves & his own lack of discipline. His lust for wanting to KO Maussa and pay him back for every shot he landed was the other half of the downfall. There was one round in the fight where Harris jabbed & won easy only to blow the end of the round by getting baited into brawling again, he just couldn't keep his head on straight. The only thing Steward may have been guilty of in this is underestimating Maussa slightly. You can easily see Steward was upset with Harris but I never got the sense that Steward felt that these mistakes would ultimately cost the fight. It seemed that even though he knew it was going bad, he had some blind faith that Harris would eventually KO Maussa to bail out of this disaster and get the chance to yell at him later. This had Mayorga/Forrest I written all over it.

J Slade
06-28-2005, 10:50 AM
I thought Steward's advice to Harris between rounds was sound. Mauss was throwing long range and telegraphed looping punches. Steward told Harris to get inside and shorten his own punches. He also told Harris that he was losing the fight and trying to drop a long righthand on the "rubber man" wasn't going to work.

As for Harris 'over-training'; I don't buy it. Steward is too experienced an eye not to recognize if a fighter is being over trained in the course of his training.

I agree with chuck's view. I think Harris was done in by nerves and being over anxious to impress. That kind of combination of stress can blow some fighter's minds and break their rythymn once things don't unravel in the ring as they envisioned.

bomma
06-28-2005, 11:32 AM
First of all it was reported in the broadcast that Manny said he did over train. He said that he went out running unbeknownst to him. Same with Hearns having his legs rubbed down before the Leonard fight. Let's also not forget the "poisoning" incident of Klitchko, remember? As far as McClelland the reason why I mention this as far as Manny is concerned is that McClelland had been trained to be a little too much of a head hunter IMHO, and it came back to hurt him in the Benn fight. I think it seems like some times Manny's fighters fall in love with there power. This doesn't mean that Manny isn't an excellent overall trainer.

Finally StingerKarl personally I don't agree with everything Kellerman says but to say he doesn't know anything about boxing is just wrong. I am sure I could talk to Manny's about my opinions and his reaction would not be well lets get into the ring to prove your man hood ambulances standing by. Besides I never questioned Manny's commitment to boxing or the fact that he a great guy or any of that. I just said this has happened to many times on his watch. If you disagree with my points tell me why I am wrong. This is a boxing discussion board we are here to discuss and debate boxing right? If every argument ended with will if you don't agree with me then go fight in the ring, what would be the point of this board?

StingerKarl
06-28-2005, 11:33 AM
bomma;
The leg rubbing was before the Hagler fight; and Hearns was running twice a day before the Leonard fight. I saw Hearns workout before the Hagler fight as I was stationed in Vegas at Nellis AFB. He didn't appear to be overtrained at all, just had a lot of guys hanging all over him. In fact; Tommy was razor sharp sparring and hitting the pads. He had a massive torso, but toothpicks for legs. That is a reason why he lost-his legs could not hold him up under the relentless pressure and punches of Hagler. Steward told me that Hearns was in the best shape of his life in fact in the days leading up to that fight. We will agree to disagree on Kellerman; and I am not going to coment on that guy anymore here ever again as I don't have a good opinion of him at all.
Karl

cyberboxingzone
06-28-2005, 12:45 PM
Re Steward "being too experienced an eye not to recognize if a fighter is being over trained in the course of his training"

Exhibit one for the prosecution: Hagler vs. Hearns.

StingerKarl
06-28-2005, 12:53 PM
Mike:
I have to disagree with you on that one.
Hearns lost that fight to a better fighter and he broke his hand in the first round.
Hearns also had the weakest set of legs I have ever seen on a boxer-Michael Olijade is also right up there. Hearns was completely top heavy, and I don't think he was overtrained.
Karl

Todd Hodgson
06-28-2005, 01:50 PM
I thought the HBO crew said the 134 was a mistake, that it was really 139.

AEP2
06-28-2005, 01:51 PM
Fightnews had Harris' weight on Friday, June 24 as 139lbs.

I still don't see how anyone can conclude Hearns was overtrained in the Hagler fight. He might not have recovered because Hagler was all over him like a cheap seat belting his brains out. If you look at Hearns' eyes between rounds two and three you can see how glassy they are.

I agree though that the massage story is probably b.s. Same with the Wladmir story that vasaline on his arms and legs before the Brewster fight caused him to lose his stamina.

bomma
06-28-2005, 03:05 PM
Karl, OK I agree we can agree to disagree on Kellerman, though I am not saying I think he knows everything, and he is no Bert Sugar, I see him more of a Howard Cosell type always interesting always opinionated. That for me makes him good for boxing. Anyway as far as Hearns goes, it could be stated that that Manny's job there is to prevent Hearns from being too heavy on top which will hurt his chances in the fight. Once again I am not saying Manny is not a great trainer but I think this type of stuff has happened to many times on Manny's watch. If the report from the fighter’s camp had been, the other guy was just better this night, then I would have nothing to say. But when the report comes back, well he over trained, or his legs were messaged before the fight, or my guy was poisoned (I don't think this was really Manny’s contention but I am not sure) then he opens himself up for criticism because it is my opinion that his role as a trainer is to all these things from happening before the fight.

StingerKarl
06-28-2005, 03:13 PM
Ok; but Hearns was saying at Caesar's that he was working out at Nautilus for the fight. Remember those places? I am sure Manny only took care of the boxing part-maybe he should have had Hearns lay off the weights, yeah.
Karl

J Slade
06-28-2005, 03:20 PM
I haven't seen a replay of the Hearns/Hagler fight in years. But I always thought Hearns lost his legs because he took some vicous shots. After-all it's not unusual for the nerves in one's legs to get short-circuited after their brain is jolted.

I've seen world class fighters lose their legs after 8 or 9 rounds because they may have been overtrained. But losing their legs after 1 or 2 rounds? That's very extreme. If he was over-trained to such an extent that his legs failed him after just 1 or 2 rounds, I would think he also wouldn't have had the energy to unleash some of the ferocious fire-power he did in that same brief time. I think he hit the wall so early because Hagler made him, not because he did it to himself in the gym.

AEP2
06-28-2005, 03:41 PM
I don't know how anyone can conclude Hearns was overtrained in the Hagler fight. It lasted only three rounds because Hagler walked through Hearns' best shots, Hearns broke his right hand and took some trememdous shots in return. Where's the evidence Hearns was overtrained?

cyberboxingzone
06-28-2005, 03:51 PM
Hearns-Hagler. Tommy was overtrained because -- just like Harris -- he went out too fast in the first round and NEVER RECOVERED.

That is one consequence of overtraining.

As EVERYONE who has ever spoken to Manny knows, he blames it on the "dressing-room leg rubbing" that Hearns recieved." That, of course, is hogwash.

bomma
06-28-2005, 03:57 PM
That is a very interesting comment Slade that I never thought of. Make sense and that may very well be true, maybe Manny is a better trainer then I give him credit for. Good point!

kikibalt
06-28-2005, 03:58 PM
Hey, some of you guys give Steward to much credit, he is not that good of a trainer, who have Steward ever made as a fighter Hearns? Hearns made Steward, he talks a good game , but all the big name fighter he work with were already made fighter

crold1
06-28-2005, 04:07 PM
That's not true. Guys like Jimmy Paul made it coming up with manny?.

kikibalt
06-28-2005, 04:08 PM
Jimmy Paul was just a so-so fighter, no more no less, Paul was not a big name fighter

TKO Tom
06-28-2005, 04:33 PM
No question in my mind that Vivian Harris was over trained for that fight against Carlos Maussa. Something nobody here has mentioned is that Harris weighed in at 134 while we all know the Jr. Welterweight limit is 140. Also, something else nobody mentioned is the fact that if you look at Harris throughout the fight he doesn't have one bead of sweat on him - none. Harris showed all of the signs to me of a guy that left everything in the gym and out on the road.

Can Manny be blamed? It's a tough call. However, what I will say is that the signs of over training would have been evident several weeks before the fight. Harris' low bodyweight should have been a primary concern. Also, the signs should have been evident in the gym. A guy like Steward who has been around boxing for over 40 years and has trained many world champs and top amateurs should have seen the signs and stepped in to change things and rein Harris in.

However, even Eddie Futch, as great as he was, was blamed for over training Alexis Arguello against Aaron Pryor in their first fight. But with Manny Steward it seems to happen a little more frequently.

<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif" />

J Slade
06-28-2005, 05:00 PM
"However, even Eddie Futch, as great as he was, was blamed for over training Arguello in his first fight against Pryor."

I never heard such an accusation regarding the first Arguello-pryor bout. And I think it defies all logic for anybody to even consider such a thing. Arguello both took and dished out an extrodinary amount of punishment in what was 14 rounds of balls-to-the-wall fighting.

If anything, Arguello's performance in the first Pryor fight was testament to a man in remarkable condition.

AEP2
06-28-2005, 05:21 PM
In the re-broadcast of the second Arguello-Pryor fight, Chris Schenkel mentioned that Arguello had blamed Futch for overtraining him after the first fight. Arguello later apologized to Futch for the accusation.

bomma
06-28-2005, 06:05 PM
See my problem is that the excuses that are used for both Hearns, Klitchko and now Harris' losses all boil down to Manny being asleep at his post. If these things did happen why couldn't he keep his fighters from doing these things (Rub downs, running on the boardwalk)? If the truth is that these things never happened then in my mind he would do better to just say my guy lost to the better guy tonight. If anything the excuses are more of an indictment of himself. IMHO.

Chuck1052
06-28-2005, 06:22 PM
The fact that Alexis Arguello was able to keep up
with Aaron Pryor for fourteen rounds shows that
the former was in tremendous condition for their
first fight. In fact, I would say that it was one
of Arguello's finest performances. After all,
Arguello, a featherweight for much of his great
career, was facing a young human dynamo who
who was in his prime and a full-fledged junior
welterweight.

If Arguello wasn't in condition for the first bout,
what was wrong when he fought Pryor again?
The second bout was much more lopsided in
Pryor's favor than their first bout.

- Chuck Johnston

J Slade
06-28-2005, 06:24 PM
I get what you're saying Bomma. Maybe he's being business savvy in transferring the blame to himself. If he actually came out and said "My guy lost, even though I trained him flawlessley and gave him great advice between rounds, because the other guy was simply the better fighter and kicked his ass"......He knows he'd be fired. So part of his job is to make excuses for the man who pays him. So he can continued being paid by him.

Kind of like a vacum cleaner sell's man explaining to his boss that he didn't sell the product to the last customer because he had a cold thus didn't deliver his best sales pitch.....As opposed to telling his boss that he couldn't sell the vacum cleaner because the product sucks. Politics.

crold1
06-28-2005, 07:21 PM
You're right, but Manny took him pretty far for a so-so guy. wins over Pendleton and Tyson before a MD loss to Haugen. And manny had Hearns from the amatuers up, not to mention guys like Duane Thomas, Michael Moorer...the list is LONG of guys Manny groomed.

kikibalt
06-28-2005, 07:34 PM
Don't give Paul to much credit for a win over Pendleton , how many guys have wins over Pendleton? i still say that Hearns made Steward , that of couse is only my opinion

Monte Cox
06-29-2005, 07:35 PM
Dont know if it's relevant but BEFORE the 1st Leonard-Hearns fight in '81 Hearns weighed in at 145 and reporters were screaming he was over-trained then.

I have always viewed Manny as a good offensive minded trainer who gives good advice in the corner. I do not think his fighters are as good defensively however. I think alot of that is because of the big amateur background. Still Manny is an excellent cornermen he is rarely wrong in what he says in the corner.

-Monte