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View Full Version : Calzaghe-Jones Results & Discussion Nov. 8/08



HE Grant
07-11-2008, 03:45 PM
Well it's set .... joke is coming off the Hopkins fight, Joe has been established as a very good but not unbeatable fighter, slightly past his best days with a chin that is good but not granite and very little power .... not a bad match up for the still well conditioned Jones whose biggest weakness is his chin ...

of course Cal should win but it is not the blow out it might be from a style basis ... still, unless Gor is treating I'm only catching the replay ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3478973

Surf-Bat
07-11-2008, 06:57 PM
Just remember folks:

You buy this bout, you're supporting it.

You support it, you allow promoters to keep dishing us up the tripe and selling it as prime rib.

WE the VIEWERS- who shell out the dough- dictate what the "superfights" are, not the promoters.

If they lose money on this they'll think twice about trying to serve up similar crap in the future.

Michael Frank
07-11-2008, 07:36 PM
Well it's set .... joke is coming off the Hopkins fight, Joe has been established as a very good but not unbeatable fighter, slightly past his best days with a chin that is good but not granite and very little power .... not a bad match up for the still well conditioned Jones whose biggest weakness is his chin ...

of course Cal should win but it is not the blow out it might be from a style basis ... still, unless Gor is treating I'm only catching the replay ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3478973
I think Jones's chin has gotten way too much discredit relative to his entire career accomplishments, but, o.k., in several recent fights it failed the test.

Only thing is, I don't think Cal is the guy to test his chin now because he isn't that hard a puncher.

I dislike that they make matches with old-timers, too, but I think Jones has a decent chance in this one. Cal should be favored, since he pulls the trigger a lot, and old Jones does anything but.

diggity
07-11-2008, 10:39 PM
Calzaghe as well as BHop were slowed down by each other's speed in that fight. A bit too much respect was given to eachother for 2 guys who aren't known for being KO artists. RJJ or Calzaghe is going to have step up & show the other a bit less respect to get a convincing win, otherwise we may be in for a nasty posefest with even less action than the Calzaghe/BHop fight. Calzaghe can't wait on RJJ like he tried with BHop earlier in the fight. Old RJJ or not, he will be even less successful. Swarm & stifle RJJ and he should pretty much cruise on through him like Johnson did.

Surf-Bat
07-23-2008, 04:43 PM
It's now been cancelled. I'll be sure to wear a black armband in protest/mourning.

Now can we make the REAL fight(Calzaghe-Pavlik)?

diggity
07-23-2008, 10:35 PM
from fightnews.com

Jones Jr. on postponement!
"It sounds to me as though Joe has a normal and usual injury," said Roy Jones Jr. regarding the postponement of his September 20 date with Joe Calzaghe. "He had shown some concern recently about his hand not being ready. I still wanted to move forward with the September date, since HBO had already laid out the red carpet for a pay-per-view success when we took the De La Hoya-Mayweather date. But I don’t want him to be no less that his best – so if this is what it takes for that, then so be it. "Regarding the new date, Jones stated, "I have been informed by my people at Square Ring that the fight will most likely be rescheduled for November 8, 2008 on HBO Pay-Per-View at Madison Square Garden . I am glad we are close to being able to put together a new date for the fight within 24 hours of learning of Joe’s injury. I am thankful that the people at HBO and Madison Square Garden were able to open things up for us....I had originally proposed something kind of different for this fight. And that is that Joe and I would first weigh-in for the fight at 168 and fight for Joe’s Super Middleweight titles. Then we would step off the scales, drink some water and weigh-in again at more than 168 so that we could also fight for Joe’s Ring Magazine Light Heavyweight title. I only recall this happening once before, in the Leonard/Lalonde fight and I think it would really add something unique to the promotion. Joe initially expressed concern about his ability to make 168 by September 19, but now that we have another 7 weeks, I hope that he will go for it and that the WBA, WBO and the WBC will sanction it."

mrbig1
08-24-2008, 12:51 AM
I know this sounds crazy but I want to see Hopkins vs Jones 2.

jim glen
08-24-2008, 02:05 AM
I think Jones blows Calzaghe out here, Jones is an all round better fighter and should/could still deliver KO goods.

Re: Hopkins, I would much rather see Jones vs. Tarver than Bhop..."if we have too!"

wpink
08-24-2008, 03:32 AM
I dont see why Joe "should beat" roy. Styles makes fights and now roy is not what he was, but he is still better thn anyone Joe has ever fought.

Antonia Margarita
08-25-2008, 03:08 PM
zag is dirty and roy likes to hit fighters when they are down
seems even to me
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Wladimir Klitschko Sucks
08-25-2008, 03:40 PM
Jones should win this fairly easily. Calzaghe could not handle Hopkins speed, and even got floored by the light hitting middlewieght,

WKS

TDKO
08-25-2008, 07:02 PM
Prime Roy pot shots Zag all night with sneak right hands as he's coming in and cruises to a close points victory....

But, unless he has a time machine, Roy cannot outwork Zag, he must hit him with something big right away, or it will be a long (boring) night.
Roy will land the sneak right, but doesn't have the energy or desire to follow up and finish. Roy's right is quite a bit faster then Hopkin's , but lacks the snap as of late, and Zag won't be taken out with one shot.

Close points victory for Joe with a few "moments" as Roy tries to emulate his old self. collect a payday and go back to where the weather is bad.....

diggity
11-04-2008, 10:18 PM
Call me stupid but I'm buying this fight and I'm halfway even looking forward to it. It is a lot more interesting to me now than it was back when it was made. This is a huge fight for both guys.

JC has a lot to lose and not much to gain as compared to RJJ. For JC if anything, it preserves his perfect record and he takes out a big name which would be a pretty nice cap to his career.

For RJJ, this can erase many wrongs in the past few years. Should RJJ win this convincingly, it would be huge. I don't care what happened to RJJ the past few years, taking out JC would clean the slate nicely for retirement.

I thought this would easily set a nice stage for RJJ/BHop 2 in the wake of the domination of Pavlik, but RJJ recently has made it abundantly clear that he is not interested but whatever. That is a fight I would not have bought even if I got free beer. It pretty much sucked the first time and I wouldn't be holding any hope its better the second time around almost 20 years later.

My head picks a JC UD after a rough start but I would not rule out a surprise KO in 9 by a very motivated RJJ.

sr71ko
11-05-2008, 04:46 PM
Call me stupid but I'm buying this fight and I'm halfway even looking forward to it. It is a lot more interesting to me now than it was back when it was made. This is a huge fight for both guys.

JC has a lot to lose and not much to gain as compared to RJJ. For JC if anything, it preserves his perfect record and he takes out a big name which would be a pretty nice cap to his career.

For RJJ, this can erase many wrongs in the past few years. Should RJJ win this convincingly, it would be huge. I don't care what happened to RJJ the past few years, taking out JC would clean the slate nicely for retirement.

I thought this would easily set a nice stage for RJJ/BHop 2 in the wake of the domination of Pavlik, but RJJ recently has made it abundantly clear that he is not interested but whatever. That is a fight I would not have bought even if I got free beer. It pretty much sucked the first time and I wouldn't be holding any hope its better the second time around almost 20 years later.

My head picks a JC UD after a rough start but I would not rule out a surprise KO in 9 by a very motivated RJJ. I don't think that you are stupid. I am going to a local bar and pay $5 to get in and watch this fight. A prime Roy Jones from 1988-1998@ 168-175lbs would destroy Calzaghe inside of 10 rounds. But the only real questions are what do Roy bring to the table and what does he have left? Back to back ko losses to Tarver and Glen Johnson made Roy look shot and weak. The prime Roy had a pretty good chin. If Roy has anything left then he will beat Calzaghe. What bothers me about Calzaghe is how easily he was hurt and floored by B-Hop. Roy@168-175lbs was a huge puncher with awesome speed. If the 2008 version of Roy Jones has any of ko power and speed then he will kick Calzaghe butt. What makes this fight interesting is will we see a Roy Jones train wreck or a restoration of an all-time great fighter ala B-Hop vs. Pavlik?

PD99
11-05-2008, 09:52 PM
Dig - no, you're not stupid. Fans often become a little too precious in their intellectual approach to an upcoming bout.

Boxing isn't enjoying the heights that it has in previous yrs (fans repeating this in mantra-like fashion isn't going to help) but die hards will take what they can get, particularly when it involves a personal favourite.

Imo, anticipation and speculation is an important part of the whole package and if you can reasonably set up a compelling set of reasons to watch this, go for it!

Personally I wouldn't buy this fight but in my neck of the woods I can watch the bout for free at my local club, something I will endeavour to do.

Upon the Tarver and Johnson losses, I NEVER viewed Jones as literally shot. He'd simply lost a step in mobility and reflex making him that much more hittable. Imo, this simply revealed a chin that was likely, always less than stellar but a chin that was never truly tested in his prime.

I don't question Jones' courage, it is, after all, his professional obligation to be on his feet at fight's end but his express efforts to avoid punishment in the Johnson fight and to some extent, the second Tarver fight, were obviously counterproductive. So, for all intents and purposes, following the Johnson fight I would've agreed that Jones was "shot" if was not able to modify his mindset.

Given Calzaghe's work rate, Jones should not look solely to boxing to a decision, a strategy that would always see him lose and perhaps even result in him being KO'd or stopped. No, imo, Jones should enter the bout with a mindset to kill or be killed or at least gain measurable respect from the get go with some welll placed power shots. Ultimately, Jones just might surprise himself and his fans as to how effective that strategy might be with little punishment incurred along the way. Sometimes the best form of defense is offense and, for Jones at this point in his career, I think that is the case.

The aura of Jones is gone forever and I think every man and his dog now thinks he has a good chance to level the once great Jones and it's tough when a once great fighter can't even milk some advantage of his once formidable reputation, at least for a few rds breather. The only things Calzaghe will show respect for will be the things that Jones actually does in the ring. Imo, Jones better establish whatever he has left in his arsenal very early in the fight.

hawk5ins
11-06-2008, 08:27 AM
Is THIS fight at the stage of his career that Jones is at, worth $50.00?

THAT is the issue here. Less that the fight has been made. But that promoters are going to serve this up to you at an absurd cost.

And with that, I am 100% wiht Surf here in that if you DO pay to watch this fight, YOU are part of the problem.

I will catch a replay and follow the fight here.

But no one is getting a dime from me for this fight.

I think the bout will be awful. ANd Jones has shown me nothing dating back the the 3rd Tarver bout that would make me think he could win.

Hopkins performance in the Pavlik bout was not all that surprising to me becuase A-I didn't believe two wins over Taylor were making me see anything more than a good tough fighter.

And B-At least Hopkins HAD shown impressive performances SINCE the "losses" to Taylor. Tarver being one and to a lesser degree, Wright.

Bernard COULD have won both Taylor Stinkers and the Joe C bout was very close as well. He'd NEVER lost conclusively in the manner Jones had in the 2nd and 3rd Tarver fights and Johnson.

Since then, Jones' comp has been below average at best.

Hopkins since his two "losses", has been fighting INFINITELY superior comp.

So I think it's a stretch to draw a parrallel between Hopkins' revival and any hope for A Jones duplication.

Calzaghe Is not at the top of HIS game any more either IMO. But HE is a whole 'nother ball of wax compared to what Jones has been in with recently.

The intrigue for me here is that if SOMEHOW Jones Did pull this off, a rematch with Hopkins 200 years later, would be interesting (and we thought Leonard Hearns II was an absurd wait. Hell that was ONLY 8 years!)

But the intrigue is not so great that I'm willing to pay for Cal and Jones.

And certainly NOT $50.00.

Hawk

Overhand_Right
11-06-2008, 09:19 AM
Luckily this fight isn't on PPV in the UK (they save PPV for 'treats' such as Hatton/Lascano and Prescott/Khan...), so i'll certainly be up late on saturday night.

This fight scares me for two reasons, one, RJJ would of splattered ol padded record Joe in his heyday, and two, in the probable event that JC wins, for the rest of my days we in the UK will have to see his sneering smarmy face wheeled out on TV as 'the greatest ever' and hear about his WBOllocks '10 year reign'.... I'm breaking into a sweat just writing it.

For these reasons, in order to preserve my sanity, i NEEED Jones to somehow turn back the clock on saturday and whip this face first slapper.

Please God. Pleeeease!!!

diggity
11-06-2008, 10:40 AM
Good post PD99

I don't think its worth the money at all but its more than I would have spent on drinks at a bar where replays of MMA would be playing all night. No bars by me get boxing anymore so I dont have the luxury of a $5 cover charge to get by on this fight. So I'll play the bad guy this time. I pass many a PPV fight on principle but I have always been fans of RJJ & Calzaghe so this fight would have always been a guilty pleasure somewhat. But had JC not beaten Hopkins (won may be a better word) and Hopkins not undressed Pavlik, this fight would have a lot less interest to me. RJJ also has not really done anything to redeem himself since the losses so I would like to see him finally own up and take his shot.

This fight doesn't have Hopkins or a big name vs a nobody or a fat & slow Tito or Tua so I really don't see it being such a bad thing. These guys are in great shape and certainly have life left. JC has earned his right to PPV fights the past few years and I'm much happier spending my money for the sake of him than RJJ. I also see RJJ having a real live chance here so I just see it as there are worse things to spend my money on than this.

TDKO
11-06-2008, 10:59 AM
I guess when you are or were a fan of someone like RJJ, you remember the highlight reels more then the trips to sleep on the canvas. I may still purchase this fight, though it would seem a steep mountain for RJJ to climb. Zag can go 12 full 3 minute rounds, RJJ will have to pick his spots, and cannot win a decison unlless he hurts Joe early and stays on the outside, that off tempo sneak right hand will have to be the weapon of choice, and I think Joe will get hit by it, but if he can take it, it will be a boring UD for him. Joe says he wants to hurt Roy early and not "pitter pat" his punches, can he do that? I think this fight is somewhat interesting, could the stars be lining up for the RJJ B-hop rematch? That would be much more interesting then a Zag Bhop rematch.
I guess we still think the old horses may have one more race in them......

diggity
11-06-2008, 10:59 AM
"Roy can handle the volume of punches," Hopkins said of Calzaghe's output. "He has the ability to neutralize it. Roy's not going to stop it, but he will neutralize it to the point where will Joe will fight using a different tactic and see what else he can do.

"I think I exposed to the world that Joe throws a lot of punches -- you can't take that away from him -- but are the punches he throws effective? Does he connect enough to get points? He throws a lot of punches, but not effective punches. That's where Roy beats him by a landslide."
Hopkins said he thinks Jones is a better puncher than Calzaghe and only a "tad" slower.
"Roy is fast and Roy can hurt you," Hopkins said. "Once that happens, Joe will realize he will have to give Roy Jones respect. It's not how many punches you throw, it's how hard you hit.
That's the difference in the end.
"I think Roy Jones wins by unanimous decision. I think he busts Joe up. Roy is two times faster than me and I had Joe's face busted up. Last time I saw, Roy Jones is faster than Bernard Hopkins. I look for Roy to pot shot Joe. Roy knows this guy very well. Roy ain't a fool. He's a smart man. He knows who to pick on as far as what they can do and what they can't do. Joe's not a big puncher who can hurt him so Roy is going to take a lot more chances than he ever took. He saw me fight Joe from ringside. I'm not the biggest puncher in the world, and I put [Calzaghe] on his a-- [in the first round]. Roy knows something. I gave him something to realize about Joe. I think Roy, at the end, with his speed and all-around athleticism, you will start seeing the difference between him and Joe in the middle rounds.
"Joe ain't gonna knock Roy out, he doesn't punch like that. He doesn't put himself in position to knock you out. He's mastered volume. He is a Hall of Famer. He wants to outwork you. But unless Joe comes out and does something out of character, that's the only way [a knockout] will happen. I don't think it will happen that way, like one punch knocks Roy on the ground. But that is not Joe.
"It's going to be a long fight. It will be mainly about conditioning. Who can throw, who can hurt and who can do it for 12 rounds? It's a big task for both of them."

diggity
11-06-2008, 11:09 AM
One thing I like for RJJ in this fight is his lead right. If he has the comfort to pull the trigger on it, he should hit JC all night with it. If he does not get that going, he might as well pack it in because its the only way he is going to get respect.

JC on the other hand is going to need to figure out a way to smother this shot if he starts to get into trouble with it. He is open for this punch & it kept him honest with BHop. With RJJ it will be coming at him much faster. Way back when, RJJ would have given him a lot of problems with that shot. We will see.

10-8
11-06-2008, 12:23 PM
This might come back to bite me in the ass but I'm taking Jones. No real analytical breakdown, just gut instinct and my distaste for JC's fighting style and inflated record.

Bring on Jones-Hopkins II. I wanna feel young again!

Paulie W
11-06-2008, 12:42 PM
It's almost impossible to call this fight IMO because I have no idea how much Jones has left - not much it would seem - and I'm equally unclear as to how far Joe has deteriorated - the Hopkins fight already suggested quite some way but at his age and with his style the drop off is going to be rapid for Calzaghe.

hawk5ins
11-06-2008, 12:54 PM
is interesting.

But to me it comes off as wishful thinking.

We KNOW who he wants to win.

Joe C. Hopkins II wouldn't draw flies.

Hawk

TDKO
11-06-2008, 01:03 PM
Hawkins...

Absolutely, Hopkins is on the campaign trail!
Dollars speak, and admit it, you would probably buy this fight,
or at least be quite interested.
And this could be a very large PPV

Maybe Oscar will be his VP

hawk5ins
11-06-2008, 01:17 PM
That this is Hopkins' goal.

The way I see it is this way: If I were to entertain purchasing Hopkins Jones II, I'm not going to first pay to see Cal Jones, becuase A-I'm not into dropping $50 bucks every time a fight has fleeting interest with me.

THis is not the days where I could get friends to chip in to buy Leonard Hearns II....Fighters they had heard of, had seen and had been entertained by in the past.

BTW, I did not purchase Hopkins Pavlik either.

B-I'm not expecting Jones to win. So the motivation of seeing THIS fight live, prior to a Potential Hopkins Jones rematch, isn't all that enticing, as I am not expecting THIS fight to lead to the One I ACTUALLY would be interested in seeing.

Which to be frank, that I am interested in seeing a rematch of Hopkins Jones, illustrates how low the bar is set these days for me. The First fight was absolutely colorless. No...It sucked.

That I have even a passing interest in seeing a rematch of THAT fight, 16 years later........Well, what else needs to be said?

I guess I'll take what I can get......even if what I can get, couldn't carry the Jockstrap of the fights I couldn't WAIT to see, when the sport was still at its apex.

Hawk

TDKO
11-06-2008, 01:26 PM
Yes,

The bar is set incredibly low, I remeber when they were talking about this figh
years ago, "60-40 and I kick your ass", from Roy, even then it was kinda ho hum......
But as a fan I also take what I can get
Someone WILL come along eventually and reignite boxing, with MMA possibly on the decline, there will be some incentive to be great, or at least make lots of money.

diggity
11-06-2008, 01:38 PM
I don't care if RJJ stops JC in the first round, I still will not pay for RJJ-BHOP 2. JC-RJJ has the potential of being a stinkfest itself, forget about the stalest rematch out there today.

GorDoom
11-06-2008, 02:34 PM
I didn't know if we were going to be able to cover this one because I couldn't find anybody who was buying it. Let's face it, this fight is as if the Superbowl was being played by guys all within a whisker of 40.

Personally I think this fight is a fucking joke but then, it's the only one we got this week. Luckily our man, Dig decided to buy it & cover it for us. A Tip O' The Fedora to Dig. Even though I & most of you won't be buying it we still want to know what is happening.

So again, thanks Dig!

Per usual please keep all discussion of this fight to this thread. Redundant threads will be deleted.

thanks,

GorDoom

hawk5ins
11-06-2008, 02:52 PM
I think I need to keep reading your posts on this subject for the purpose of injecting some sobriety into my head, so that I can make a wise decision should a certain rematch ever come off.

Really now, can we see a show of hands from anyone who actually was enterertained by the Bowe Fergusson undercard 15 years ago?

Hawk

diggity
11-06-2008, 03:10 PM
Wow is that what is was on? Funny.

I revisited the interest of a RJJ-BHop rematch in my mind after the famous "60/40 I'll kick your ass" conversation between the 2 of them. Even though I've seen the fight at least twice prior, the next partial viewing reminded me why I never need to watch it again or a rematch of it when both guys are well past their best. Two safety first fighters who are getting slower & slower to pull the trigger? Don't kid yourself if you think BHop will be remotely as active versus RJJ as he was Pavlik. I'll catch the rerun out of curiousity but I'll pass on dumping a single cent into it live.

hawk5ins
11-06-2008, 03:25 PM
Since I nearly fell asleep in a Bar (Didn't have HBO in 93') in downtown Boston, waiting to see the Bowe Fergusson bout (I actually thought that was going to be interesting in lieu of the Mercer first fight. YIKES!).

I could not beleive how terrible a fight between two young prospects looking to prove to the world how good they were and to make a name for themselves, ended up being.

I've heard a comparison to Leonard Benitez being made in that it was a "great technical Battle".

Horse shit. It ended up being worse than HEARNS BENITEZ! It was two safety first fighters affraid to committ and or make a mistake and thus look bad.

Problem was, in BOTH taking that approach, they BOTH looked bad. Thought Jones won by about 3 points, but was so disinterested, that at the time, it didn't really matter WHO won. I was just glad it was over.

And then on to the "Real" fight in Bowe vs the Boogey Man!

I had visions of Carl Williams vs. Jesse Fergusson all over agian for that fight!

D'Oh!

Hawk

diggity
11-06-2008, 03:42 PM
BHop was tentative in the face of that speed & RJJ did just enough to keep anything close to a fight from breaking out. I don't see how it would be any different now except for even more posing and less punching.

The main reason I am buying this fight is for JC. I would like to see him earn & keep his 0 and also because JC is a very good fighter with known vulnerabilities. That leaves for some drama in the fight especially when in with someone who will be faster than him & has something big to prove.

sr71ko
11-06-2008, 04:15 PM
Normally Gordoom I would agree with you about this. However, with Roy Jones there a couple of interesting possibilites: 1) Will we see a Roy Jones jr. train wreck ala Tarver-Jones II and Glen Johnson-Roy Jones? 2) An amazing comeback and restoration of an all-time great fighter kind of like B-Hop vs. Pavlik. 3) The distinct possibility of Roy Jones knocking Calzaghe on his ass and stopping him(I was surprised just how easy Calzaghe was hurt and went down and there were 2 or 3 other times that he nearly went down). I know that Roy Jones and B-Hop do have track records of having boring fights in their past, but both of these fighters have strengths and weaknesses that can be exploited, especially in the chin area lately. What does Roy have left? Does Roy have a chin of iron or a glass chin? If Roy has his power, strength, and handspeed will Calzaghe be able to hang? I know that Calzaghe has, but if Roy has anything close to what he had about 7-10 years ago, than Roy Jones will stop Calzaghe inside of 10 rounds. I know that I have said it before, but it just seems like 1993 all over again, and Jones vs. B-Hop II is coming next whether we like it or not.

hawk5ins
11-06-2008, 04:25 PM
50 of us should each chip in a buck and send it to Dig.

Better man than I am.

Thanks fella.

SR, in 1993, Jones and Hopkins served as an Undercard to Bowe and Fergusson.

If this is the "good old days", in recalling that card that played on HBO 15 years ago, please give me OLDER, BETTER days.

Hawk

hawk5ins
11-06-2008, 04:55 PM
And getting knocked off their perches:

Roy Jones:

After losing back to back to back fights to

Tarver KO By 2

Johnson KO By 9

and Tarver Clear decision Loss in 12

Jones's Opp since 2005 has consisted of

Prince Badi Anju

Anthony Hanshaw

and Felix Trinidad who had not stepped into the ring in nearly 3 years.

And Now Jones Faces Joe Calzaghe.

Hopkins following back to back, arguable and controversial close decision losses to Jermaine Taylor, Bernard's opp has consisted of

A dominating white wash of Antoinio Tarver to Win the Light Heavyweight Championship

A Win over Pound for Pound top 5-er WInky Wright.

An close decision loss to Joe Calzhaghe

This was who Hopkins was facing prior to taking on Kelly Pavlik, whom he defeated cleanly and handily a few weeks ago.

Has Jones's opposition properly prepared him to be ready to face Calzaghe in the manner that Hopkins top shelf opposition has kept him among the best fighters in the game?

If the question is: "Hopkins was able to pull off a Stunner agianst Pavlik, what can't Jones do something similar to Calzaghe"?

A- I think Joe is a better fighter than Kelly.

B-Hopkins has remained among the best fighters in the game since the "losses" to Taylor and has consistently fought the best in the game during that timeframe.

Jones' fell off the map with back to back Ko losses to Tarver, Johnson and then a decisive loss to Tarver. Following that his opposition has been dreadful.

Hoping to "turn back the clock" IMO seems very unlikely and the recipe he has been following is in no way shape or form similar to what Bernard has been doing over the past 3 years.

No comparison IMO.

Hawk

diggity
11-06-2008, 05:52 PM
I'll happily be taking donations. Just because I'm paying for it does not mean I am happy about it whatsoever. I hear the undercard is dreadful to boot but what do you expect when it is co-promoted by 2 fighters who are about to retire.

hawk5ins
11-06-2008, 06:01 PM
"A Dollar for Diggity"

Can be sent be sent to the following PayPal acct.......

Hawk

doomeddisciple
11-06-2008, 08:13 PM
*Cough*http://www.justin.tv*cough free*

It goes against all logic, but I would so love for Roy to stop Calzaghe...But when he dropped Hanshaw and Trinidad he didn't press for a KO so I don't see it happening in this fight either.

wpink
11-06-2008, 08:36 PM
And getting knocked off their perches:

Roy Jones:

After losing back to back to back fights to

Tarver KO By 2

Johnson KO By 9

and Tarver Clear decision Loss in 12

Jones's Opp since 2005 has consisted of

Prince Badi Anju

Anthony Hanshaw

and Felix Trinidad who had not stepped into the ring in nearly 3 years.

And Now Jones Faces Joe Calzaghe.

Hopkins following back to back, arguable and controversial close decision losses to Jermaine Taylor, Bernard's opp has consisted of

A dominating white wash of Antoinio Tarver to Win the Light Heavyweight Championship

A Win over Pound for Pound top 5-er WInky Wright.

An close decision loss to Joe Calzhaghe

This was who Hopkins was facing prior to taking on Kelly Pavlik, whom he defeated cleanly and handily a few weeks ago.

Has Jones's opposition properly prepared him to be ready to face Calzaghe in the manner that Hopkins top shelf opposition has kept him among the best fighters in the game?

If the question is: "Hopkins was able to pull off a Stunner agianst Pavlik, what can't Jones do something similar to Calzaghe"?

A- I think Joe is a better fighter than Kelly.

B-Hopkins has remained among the best fighters in the game since the "losses" to Taylor and has consistently fought the best in the game during that timeframe.

Jones' fell off the map with back to back Ko losses to Tarver, Johnson and then a decisive loss to Tarver. Following that his opposition has been dreadful.

Hoping to "turn back the clock" IMO seems very unlikely and the recipe he has been following is in no way shape or form similar to what Bernard has been doing over the past 3 years.

No comparison IMO.

Hawk


Hawk,

Good Points. I have had this discussion over and over again with people who are claiming that Calzaghe can not beat the Jones that stepped in the ring with Trinidad. This baffles me. Are people forgetting that Trinidad was a great welter, but got his ass handed to him when he was prime and stepped up to 160. To think that beating those 3 fighters you mentioned, means he is now almost back to the Jones of Old, to me is crazy.

I think Roy is like a lot of great fighters, but even worse, as Roy has fell of much faster and farther than other fighters of his level. I say this because he was at one time the greatest talent in boxing then, over night he was getting beaten silly by the very average Tarver, and a very good and aggressive but not at his level Johnson. Most fighters have a much more gradual decline than Roy had. Roy has to know that he has nothing compared to what he did have in the areas of instinct, speed and reflexes. He never made focused on the basics that could have carried him through vs
Tarver and Johnson, and thus I simply can not see him beating Calzaghe.

Not that I think very much of Calzaghe. Sure he is a very good fighter, but I dont believe he beats a prime Hopkins, or Wright, or Jones. I know roy saw some weaknesses especially how he got rocked with that straight right hand down the pipe, but Roy is always full of himself, and thinks that he can do whatever whenever, and i just dont think he will do the work to set up this right hand, like Hopkins does. I think roy will try to simply depend on his instinct and it could be a very ugly night for him.

It always seems the great fighters seem to know before that final fight (or what should be that final fight) that they dont have it anymore. Many times you see it in there prefight interviews. Ali vs Holmes, Leoanrd vs Norris, and others. The ferocity the confidence seems to give way to fighter credits his opponents accomplishments before the fight, and seems to vocalize that they may find a way to win,,,,vs the dominant supreme confidence that they had generally. Looking at roy, in the press confernece and on 24/7, he seems happy to just be up there competing again, but that super confidence that a mayweather shows, or he used to show does not seem present...

I am going with a 5th round stoppage by calzaghe. Starting round 2, we all will see exactly Hawk what you pointed out above....Roy level of oppostion is no where near what he will face in Calzaghe and he will not be able to avoid the onslaught, even though Calzaghe does not hit all that hard he is a professional champ, he hits hard enough.....

Crold1
11-07-2008, 02:16 AM
Joe Calzaghe-Roy Jones: Pre-Fight Report Card

By Cliff Rold

While unsure where the superstition about things happening in threes got started, like most superstitions it leaves an impression in the back of the mind. In the last three weeks, two fights have featured prohibitive underdogs with big names assumed to be on their last legs. In both, rumors of any ring demise were more than exaggerated as both Bernard Hopkins and Vic Darchinyan made mince meat of Kelly Pavlik and Cristian Mijares respectively. Before those fights, Joe Calzaghe (45-0, 32 KO) vs. Roy Jones (52-4, 38 KO) looked like a farewell tour for both with Calzaghe seeking to end undefeated and Jones just seeking an end.

Somehow, the victories of others make Jones’ chances feel suddenly realistic. Do the performances of Hopkins and Darchinyan have any real bearing on Calzaghe-Jones in the ring? Probably not, but sometimes a feeling gets in the air.

Sometimes, the feeling turns out to be gas.

If Calzaghe were facing anyone else but Jones, there wouldn’t be any question. In fact a fighter of Calzaghe’s current status facing someone who hasn’t had a top ten win at Light Heavyweight in years, and who was beaten badly the last three times he tried, would be derided with venom. Superstitions are fun but rational minds realize they are often the object of coincidence.

Hopkins beating Pavlik was surprising, but only because full credit wasn’t doled out for his previous bout with Calzaghe, a fight deserving of viewing in a new light. Darchinyan’s win was downright shocking, but recent strong performances against Z Gorres and Dimitri Kirilov served as a clue many missed. Jones has nothing like that in recent vintage. While he looked solid versus Felix Trinidad in January, does anyone think Tito lasts twelve, hell six, with Jones five years ago?

And yet, still, it’s Jones and once upon a time, even against lesser foes, Jones was so good as to make the idea of some magic this Saturday conceivable. It’s for Ring Magazine’s Light Heavyweight belt, but it’s also the two best Super Middleweights in the history of that division, both in the twilight of their careers. It’s impossible not to look forward to this one even if sometimes it’s easier to picture it as what might have been years ago rather than what it might be now.

Let’s go to the report card.

Read the Rest at: http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=16814

P.S. Picking Calzaghe by UD but wouldn't be shocked with a KO anywhere from three forward. Hope Roy turns back the clock and we get a great fight...NYC is a long drive and this undercard is hardly worth the hotel fare. :)

diggity
11-07-2008, 10:16 AM
Looks like we agree on the result but I need to move your piece to the other thread. :)

walshb
11-07-2008, 10:55 AM
I am a little interested in this bout, but have to agree, that paying TOP dollar for it is a NO NO!

I think Cal wins by mid to late TKO because he sets, or should set, a frenetic pace, overwhelming Jones. Both are past it 'age' wise; but Joe is definitely the fresher and
fitter man here. If Joe can take Jones' clean shots, he will wear Jones down. Roy hasn't the heart or stamina IMO for 12 hard paced rds.

There's no way I can see 'slapper' Cal taking Roy out with one or two shots. He just doesn't hit near hard enough I feel; and even with Jones' weak chin, he will not be Tarver'ed or Johnson'd in this one.

The key to the win is work rate, something Jones lacks and Joe owns!

Peak to peak, I would pick a clear Jones KO win!

hawk5ins
11-07-2008, 11:12 AM
is that some, not all, are not only thinking (praying more like it. Bernard I'm talking about you!) Prime Jones is returning. But his victory over Trinidad was as if Tito were still the Tito that Ko'd William Joppy in 2001.

Heck the Trindad that fought Jones was the Tito that got whitewashed by Winky Wright.

The three wins Jones has since the back to back to back defeats.....how can we place ANY amount of weight given the quality of those opponents?

I just don't think we can.

I can only imagine that the Jones we will see will be what we saw in the 3rd Tarver fight (a fighter who I can make a quality judgment on). Given that, I say Joe C wins and it will be a relatively clean and clear victory.

The mystery to ME in this fight, is how much is JOE sliding? I think he's on the other side of the hill, but much closer to the top than Jones is.

I think the outcome of this bout won't reveal anything about how these two would have fared agianst one another if both were in their primes.

Hawk

diggity
11-07-2008, 01:59 PM
I agree although I think the Tito that fought RJJ was better than the one that lost to Winky.

One thing I always come back to is I wonder if this will be the case of two guys fighting at a different level for years & once they meet up the disparity is apparent.

RJJ has not had a real fight since the first Tarver bout.
He wasnt in the Johnson fight at all & fought to survive Tarver the 3rd time.
Ajamu, Hanshaw & Tito were about all the same threat, heightened sparring.

JC on the other hand has stayed active against better opposition and has something to show for it.

I'm holding out hope that RJJ goes for broke, otherwise it will be a boring night & the fight will be the let down I originally thought it would.

jim glen
11-07-2008, 03:01 PM
I have already expressed my opinion on the outcome of this fight - Jones and possible stoppage; my thought for this fight deals more with legacy and historical placement for these two lads.

Calzaghe = Good fighter not Great fighter.
yet 'if' he wins he will surely be consider among Britain's greatest middleweights & L-HW's an honour, just like Eubank I don't believe he (they) deserve.

Jones = Great fighter 'possible' all-time great.
yet 'if' he losses or worse gets stopped again he risks some heavy critism to the point of really making a difference on his historical status.

So here it is, irrespective of who wins. Roy Jones Jnr. IS the better/greater fighter and should be remembered as such and as I said it's possible he won't be and you can bet, like I said a Calzaghe victory will place Joe, here in Britain anyway - the Best we EVER had... better than Wells, Wilde, Farr, Lewis, Harvey, McAvoy, Tarlelton, Roderick, Lynch and literally dozens too numerous to mention. For me it kind of causes a aggrevated empty feeling because there are just too many left behind and killed off by modern media hype, it's just not right!

I'd like to see Calzaghe win for his sake. I expect to see Jones win for "the better fighters" sake... But more importantly I'd like to see Jones win for True Boxing Histories sake!

what we need is honest reporters especially here in Britain!

walshb
11-07-2008, 03:06 PM
I have already expressed my opinion on the outcome of this fight - Jones and possible stoppage; my thought for this fight deals more with legacy and historical placement for these two lads.

Calzaghe = Good fighter not Great fighter.
yet 'if' he wins he will surely be consider among Britain's greatest middleweights & L-HW's an honour, just like Eubank I don't believe he (they) deserve.

Jones = Great fighter 'possible' all-time great.
yet 'if' he losses or worse gets stopped again he risks some heavy critism to the point of really making a difference on his historical status.

So here it is, irrespective of who wins. Roy Jones Jnr. IS the better/greater fighter and should be remembered as such and as I said it's possible he won't be and you can bet, like I said a Calzaghe victory will place Joe, here in Britain anyway - the Best we EVER had... better than Wells, Wilde, Farr, Lewis, Harvey, McAvoy, Tarlelton, Roderick, Lynch and literally dozens too numerous to mention. For me it kind of causes a aggrevated empty feeling because there are just too many left behind and killed off by modern media hype, it's just not right!

I'd like to see Calzaghe win for his sake. I expect to see Jones win for "the better fighters" sake... But more importantly I'd like to see Jones win for True Boxing Histories sake!

what we need is honest reporters especially here in Britain!
Jim, in a perfect world I couldn't agree more.

I just think it's a few years too late for Jones against a good fighter who
is still closer to the TOP of his game than Jones; and noticeably so!

jim glen
11-07-2008, 03:21 PM
maybe Walsh, just maybe!

hawk5ins
11-07-2008, 03:31 PM
If folks can't see that beating Jones at THIS stage of his career isn't worth anymore than Jones Beating Tito at the stage of his career that HE was in......Then I agree.

You do need better reports and writers over there.

Cal IMO does deserve to be considered an excellent fighter and AMONG the best ever produced from that side of the pond.

But NO, I don;t consider him the best ever from over there and REGARDLESS of what happens agianst Jones, my opinion of him will not elevate or lower one IOTA.

Scary thing though, If Jones somehow wins, don't tell me the overreaction the OTHER way won't be just as bad.

Don't think anyone need worry about that though.

Hawk

walshb
11-07-2008, 03:41 PM
Should Cal beat Jones, the British press will go into overdrive; but that doesn't mean that
knowledgeable fans (myself&Jim) will not take it for what it is, "a decent win over a faded man."

Cal cannot escape this fact.

To me, it doesn't change my opinion of Cal, very good, but nothing excellent!

hawk5ins
11-07-2008, 04:12 PM
No.

I do think he's proven to be an excellent fighter though.

I don't place a whole lot of merit in defending the WBOgus belt a million times, but he does have some quality victims on his resume in whihc he has performed well agianst.

WIns over Eubank, Reid, Brewer, Mitchell, ruining Lacy, Kessler and the close and arguable duke over Hopkins (who was coming off of two impressive showings), I think deserve some merit when evaluating him.

Still doesn't make him the best to come out of your neck of the woods.

But I do think he is on par with Say a Turpin and Conteh, behind Buchanan and ahead of the likes of Minter, Stracey, Graham, Eubank, Benn and Watson.

I think those clearly ahead of him are Lewis (Ted Kid and Lennox), Wilde, Welsh, Driscoll and Moran. Nothing changes with a Win over THIS Jones.

I think that's a fair shake when assessing him.

Hawk

walshb
11-07-2008, 04:22 PM
Depends how one rates his victims?

I rate Kessler as average, Lacy as 'useless,' Reid as average to above average and Eubank as very very good, but he was well past his peak.

I rate Buchannan and Turpin and Benn and Eubank (peak) all ahead of Joe.

I think Watson was better too.

starlingstomp
11-07-2008, 05:32 PM
To be fair to Joe, you can pick holes in the records of all those men.

One thing Calzaghe does have in his favour over many recent British fighters is longevity.

Rafael
11-07-2008, 08:04 PM
This fight would have meant something about 6 to 8 years ago.

wpink
11-07-2008, 08:11 PM
Part of me hopes that Jones of old,,, can resurface for a brief moment and have some flashes and make this a good fight that he can win.

Most of me thinks, not a chance. Hawk. I agree with you competly, and to reinterate again...tito greatness was at 147 years ago. How can one rate his fight vs Jones as a measuring stick for Calzaghe. I don't get it.

I hope this does not turn into another sad episode where we see a once great fighter who does not realize he has nothing left, get lead to his final pasture. Everything in me senses this, but who hurts is that it is coming vs Calzaghe. Why not Chad Dawson or someone, but it does not seem right to not have made this fight all this time (whether is was roy camp or Calzaghe's camp ducking this fight) then when Roy has nothing left to make it. Thus Calzaghe fans will try to say he was better all along, undefeated, beat the best fighter Roy faced or 1 of the best 2 fighters roy ever faced, and then some other good ones. I can literally see their arguement for Calzaghe being one of the greatest ever, already.

That is why I wish if Roy is being led to his last pasture, it would be against a yound up coming fighter like Dawson, and the torch is passed, but it is a clear cut youth vs ancient match up. This match up stinks to me!

diggity
11-07-2008, 10:02 PM
The fight would have meant much more 6-8 years ago but Lacy was far from useless when JC fought him and Kessler was FAR above "average" when they fought. Give the guy a few ounces of credit. Nobody gets by on a record like that. He has plenty of other wins on that record to suggest he beat people with little more than a pulse. To suggest anything less is blatant ignorance.

Crold1
11-07-2008, 11:54 PM
Calling Lacy useless ignores part of why; it's like taking away from Trinidad for the Vargas win because of the state Vargas was left in by that fight. Kessler is quite good and Calzaghe weather some heavy leather to win.

I offer this...if Calzaghe wins tomorrow and IF he retires, undefeated, calling him less than an all-time great seems a reach. There are very few who have done it and it usually implies a flawed resume somewhere, but both Rocky Marciano and Ricardo Lopez have achieved that status and Calzaghe would stack favorably with either. His longevity trumps Marciano and overall quality of competition dwarfs Lopez with similar stats. I realize Cal's style bugs some, but results matter. I imagine Calzaghe will be much more appreciated in retrospect than he is now.

hawk5ins
11-08-2008, 07:37 AM
A huge cosign on both of your posts from me.

Good stuff.

THe Vargas analogy was perfect btw.

Again, my position is that Cal does not go to the top of the tops, but he CERTAINLY belongs in the discussion of great fighters. ANd his accomplishment of going unbeaten (anyone have examples where he CLEARLY avoided or ducked his best opp avail to him?) is also imressive as well.

Hawk

Ron Lipton
11-08-2008, 02:07 PM
Thanks Dig,

right off the bat tonight could you mention who the referees are for this card, thanks.

R

diggity
11-08-2008, 05:05 PM
sure

Ron Lipton
11-08-2008, 11:32 PM
Anything going on????

Husker
11-08-2008, 11:37 PM
Ron: per ESPN.com, a female referee named Sparkle Lee handled the duties for the middleweight fight between Alphonso Williams and Daniel Edouard. Other than that, I can't help ya.

GorDoom
11-08-2008, 11:51 PM
I believe that maybe Dig is just going to cover the headline bout because the undercard was crappy. I'm sure he'll show up soon. If he was hung up he would have e-mailed me or called me.

GorDoom

Ron Lipton
11-08-2008, 11:57 PM
Thanks gents,

Sparkle Lee? Oh yeah, one of Larry Hazzard's newer refs I believe from NJ.
Incredible.

wildhawke11
11-09-2008, 12:01 AM
Sparkle Lee == what is the world coming to

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 12:05 AM
They gave referee jobs to people you have to see to believe in action, friends of friends and no matter what they do, they get more fights.
Now they are in NY, not hard to figure out why.

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 12:11 AM
So sorry for the computer glitch

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 12:16 AM
At 11:16PM are they in the ring yet? Who are the officials?

Mike DeLisa
11-09-2008, 12:21 AM
Hang tight -- it is 6th round of Judah fight.

diggity
11-09-2008, 12:31 AM
Main event didn't start yet. I didn't watch anything on this garbage undercard.

diggity
11-09-2008, 12:46 AM
hubert earle is the ref

PeteLeo
11-09-2008, 12:47 AM
Jeeze, Dominick Guinn has won two fights inside a month without a single loss between them! I think that's one of the signs of the End of Time, isn't it? PeteLeo.

diggity
11-09-2008, 12:51 AM
r1 jc jags to the body...jc jabs...rjj waiting jab n misses..jc backs roy to the corner...circles out jc jabbing left to the body jc jabbing short rjj with a soft lead right ...backs into the corner jc flurries rjj counters misses with a lead right....rjj with a body shot jc DOWN!!!! gets up ok...jc flurries....rjj to the body again....jc back up roy...starting to trade...wow...9-8 rjj IMO

diggity
11-09-2008, 12:55 AM
replay shows a forearm caused the kd....

r2 jc jabs...roy posing...roy flurries..jc's cut...on the nose...roy to the body....lookiing more comfortable now...jc roughin up roy in the corner...jc showboating...lead right by rjj....jc to the body...rjh to the body again...lead right for roy...roy showboating some more...jc roughs up roy in the corner....jcs round but roy landed the harder shots...

diggity
11-09-2008, 12:59 AM
r3 jc jabs...roy counters & jabs...jc back roy into the corner...roy with a lead right...combos n misses...jc grapples in hits...both guys fighting with their hands down..,.jc backs roy into the corners n showboards...flurries n turns... body shots...sticking his head out...roy not firing back...more flurries by jc and sticking his neck out....stupid....i cant believ what he is trying to do....jc jabbing & jabbing... roy not doing anything....lands a lead left....jcs round big....jc finishing the round with a chicken dance

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:03 AM
r4 both jabbing short....missing...jc lands & pursuing...misses with a wild shot....lands ot the body... jabs....backs into the corner...jc toying with him...jabbing...roy not doing anything at all...lands a quick right...jc lands a hook....then to the body... roy cant get off...jc toying with him more in the corner....roughing him up in the corner....roy lands a wild shot jc makes fun of him....jcs round big again...

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:07 AM
rjj does not seem like he can hurt jc

r5 jc back him into the corner...jc jabs...jc just roughin up roy n no answer...backed into another corner...roy not answering lands a weak right....lands another...lands a nicer one now..misses...they clinch....jc flurries low...jc toyin with roy, chin in the air....jc may have stunned roy...roy trys to answer....closer round but i think jc takes it

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 01:07 AM
They count the forearm smash as a legit knockdown?

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 01:09 AM
Anyone know who Hubert Earle is?

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:11 AM
r6 jc to the body....rjj clinches...jc back him into the ropes roy circles out, both missing with jabs...fight slowing a little...posing....posing....posing....no punches...glancing right by rjj...jc sneaks one through...flurries him into a corner...keeping him there...jc toying with jim....roy lands to the body...jc answers to the body....jc to the body....roy misses with a wild right...uppercut lands for rjj..jc flurries to end the round....jcs round

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:11 AM
i have no idea who earle is and yes it was called a KD

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 01:12 AM
Found out, he has never done a world title fight, he is from Canada and he has been a ref since 2006

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 01:13 AM
Thanks, go diggity go. Good job.

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:15 AM
r7 roy hooks...jc labs...lands to the body...rjj tried to flurry & was countered...jc backs roy to the ropes...rjj poking in a few jabs...jc misses....jc to the body...flurries a bit more....rjj looks hurt....jc toying....another nice body shot...rjj bleeding form his left eye...roys eyes swelling...jc showboating...jcs round easy...rjj eye bleeding badly

writehooks
11-09-2008, 01:15 AM
Earle is from Halifax and has been a referee for more than 25 years. The first time I saw him do a fight was one of Willie de Wit's bouts in 1986.

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:19 AM
r8 roy still bleeding.....jc jabs...flurries...roy wrestles him into the ropes....posing...rjj trying to back up jc....both holding n hitting....lands a lead right with nothing on it...jc back roy into the corner...rjj bleeding ....rjj looking a little more urgent but it doesnt seem to matter...jc toying, smashing home another left....jc toying more...bullies rjj into the ropes...roy sneaking in an uppercut....jc round again

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:23 AM
r9 cut flowing in the corner.....this cut will stop the fight soon.....roy in the corner again....jc to the body...roy coming forward...they clinch...another clinch....roy misses with a hook....roy in the corner, getting roughed up..jc combos to the face...roy with no answer...shakes his head no...jc to the body, hitting everything....jc leaving his chin out there...roy cant hurt him....jc jabs to the body....roy to the body & again....jc with his hands down...another round for jc

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 01:24 AM
Writehooks, you are correct, sorry, I only had one page on him. He refereed mostly in Canada. Virgil Hill, Joe Mesi and a few others.

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:27 AM
r10 the fight really lost any drama it had...the cut is the only drama......jc with a hook, lands a left through the guard....right to the body....to the head & to the body again...rjj with no answers...rjj with a quick body shot....jc with a 1-2 & again...roy bleeding...jc to the body then up top...rjj has not landed a decent shot in a very long time.....they wrestle against the ropes, jc does not stop punching..looking fresh...the fight should be stopped...jcs round again

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:32 AM
r11 rjj looked the most banged up i have ever seen him in the corner.....they are taking a hard look at the cut again....they let it go, for what i dont know.....jc jabs...roy backing up...in the corner...jc toying....lands a left to the body then up top.....rjj pokes in 2 rights....roy lands to the body...roy misses with a right...jc bangs in a right hook....roy in the corner again...jc showboating, trying to bait roy into throwing but gets nothing...rjj lands a decent lead right.....blood streaming....roy with a jab....jc to the body....they clinch....guess what, a jc round

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:36 AM
r12 thank god, i am such a sucker....jc jabs to the body....rjj with a right...& another....jc 1-2 to the body....roy misses with a right....jc backs roy into the corner....lands a wild left...rjj doing nothing on the ropes....roy throws a few shots, misses all....misses with an uppercut....lands a nice body shot on jc, he seemed surprised.....ref falls down ha!.....the fight ends
i only thank god i did not bother to go to this piece of shit

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:38 AM
scores (like it matters)
all 3 the same
118-109
jc threw 985 punches landed 33%
outlanded him by almost 400 shots

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 01:40 AM
Incredible, just incredible after all those HBO shows on the lead up t the fight.

All the stuff RJJ talked about JC having to kill him to win. How many rounds did you give RJJ Diggity?

Wing master
11-09-2008, 01:41 AM
Thanks Diggity.

Randy

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 01:42 AM
Thanks Dig,
much appreciated

SigniferSanctusMichael
11-09-2008, 01:46 AM
Yeah, many thanks from me too, Diggity!

hawk5ins
11-09-2008, 01:46 AM
Did the Bodyshot/forearm, seem to hurt Cal or knock him off balance and down? Was it clear live that the shot seemed as "odd" as you described it? (A Forearm?).

BTW, Earle has been reffing bouts and title fights for years dating back to the early 80's. Title fights involving Brian Mitchell, Myung Woo Yuh, Virgil Hill, among others and as recently as 2007 in an IBF Super Bantamweight championship bout involving Steve Molitor.

I beleive his first title fight was in 1986 when Donald Curry defended his Welterweight crown for the final time agianst Eduardo Rodriguez.

Hawk

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 01:50 AM
JC probably wanted a ref from outside the USA. Saw his full record.
How did he do tonight?

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 01:55 AM
Was the forearm knockdown an incorrect call? Other websites say the knockdown came from a "Glancing right hand." Other than that, did Roy Jones Jr win more than two rounds? Did the crowd consider it a legit knockdown or the HBO staff once they saw it was a forearm, did they say the knockdown was not legit??

Off The River
11-09-2008, 02:18 AM
When I first saw the knockdown, I thought it was a hook to the body. My initial reaction was the Joe was in for a short night. The replay, from what I saw that is...with an infant eating his milk and a toddler upset because his lego would'nt go together properly) was a hard jab followed by a right which Joe ducked into. It was quick and short and would have been tough to spot from almost any angle. The forearm was hard enough to cut the bridge of Joe's nose. I would tend to think most refs would have called it a knockdown and not been criticised too much for it.

Ron, In the end the ref did a decent job... from my untrained eye of course. The only exception was he slipped while breaking the fighters from a clinch in the twelfth.

It was a great performance and win for Joe Calzaghe in my opinion. I've always felt that he has (and most European fighters) nnever gotten the credit he deserved.

He was so much faster than Jones in this fight, and took some hard shots along the way with little problem. This leads me to believe he would have given Roy trouble at any time of his career.

I think this is the only time in my life that I actually enjoyed showboating in a fight. I always despised Jones' cocky demeanor in the ring and to see the Karmanic Laws shoved in his face was a bit of poetic justise for me. Joe fought with his hands down for a good deal of the fight, laughed of any and all of Jones punches and basically threw a whole career of taunting and showboating right back in Roy's face. I thought that it was going to cost him dearly, but if and when Jones did land a good shot, Joe just shrugged it off.

This fight convinces me of three things; How good Joe Calzaghe is despite the criticism he has had over the years, how good Hopkins is and how solid of puncher he is at Lt Heavyweight today.

Mike DeLisa
11-09-2008, 02:28 AM
Calzaghe was called by Buffer "... and still light heavyweight champion" -- did I miss something?

hawk5ins
11-09-2008, 02:32 AM
Just so I am clear here: THe Body punch and the Forearm were not the same punches correct?

Sounds to me like there was a bodypunch that was followed by a forearm, to I assume Cal's face, that ulitmately caused the cut on Joe's nose.

Do I have that correct, or are beers I've been consuming, telling me I am reading that Joe got knocked down by a body punch, that was actually a forearm, which also caused a cut on Joe's nose?

Oy.

Hawk

PD99
11-09-2008, 03:21 AM
Hawk - I just caught the briefest of highlights. Jones fired a left jab. Jones then swung a right parallel to the floor and as he did so, Calzaghe ducked and Jones' right forearm caught Calzaghe flush and hard on the proboscis which directly caused Calzaghe to fall. Scanning various reports on the internet, Calzaghed admitted to being "stunned" by the shot that put him down.

wildhawke11
11-09-2008, 04:08 AM
Dig
Again thank you for a great report on the fight even if i did get knocked off line before the last round.
Thanks Buddy

Off The River
11-09-2008, 04:32 AM
I think it's the beers Hawk. I'll break it down in pure Beerlish.

Jones...threw n hi9t with jab...slurrrr
Jonessss fffollowed up with short right which looked like it was to the body from my angle, but actually was the fuckin forearm that eberybudy was talkin bout.

The forearm hurt the fucker from that country with the same name as the larget aminal on the planet n he took a knee. Calshaggy gor up and beat RJ like he stole his soccer ball.

Hope that helps!

Adeyinka
11-09-2008, 07:17 AM
I listened to this bout live on the radio as I tend to with fights with a British interest and feel the better for it whether my reasoning is based on:

a) Apathy

or

b) Cheapness

or

c) financial embarassment

I can only imagine the pre-TV / PPV days when fans huddled by radios listening to the pride of say Britain or Nigeria, fight American opposition in meaningful world championship bouts

PS

I guess they no longer grant live radio broadcast rights in the States...

hawk5ins
11-09-2008, 08:31 AM
I was thinking a full day of college football might have gotten my head a bit crooked.

The dollar is in the mail!

Much appreciated as always!

Ade, I am thinking getting play by play (and btw, I fall into all three categories you described!) on the net is indeed our equvilant of listening to a fight on the radio.

I personally have never listened to a fight on the radio and would think it would be awesome to have been able to do so.

Closest I have come is "watching" scrambled signals of Page Tubbs, Holyfield Mercer and a handful of other fights where the picture on the tube was purposefully mangled and I could only hear the announcers.

Holyfield Mercer was in a Hotel room and If i cocked my head just so, I could ALMOST make out a Holyfield bicep.

Hawk

HE Grant
11-09-2008, 09:19 AM
I recently rewatched the Hopkins/Cal fight and have to say it's time for me to give Cal some serious due ... On a rewatch he really did defeat Hopkins and coming off the Pavlik domination it proved a serious victory ... Now he dominates Jones ... since all three have seen better days I'm throwing the age thing into the same mix ... Of course I did not see this fight yet but will catch it ...

10-8
11-09-2008, 10:29 AM
Saw the fight live last night (for free). Firstly Roy won the first round and possibly the second that's all I gave him. He spent much of the fight on the ropes, gloves in front of his face while Calzaghe slapped him. There were a few rounds which I was wavering on after 2 minutes but then Roy would cover up and do nothing the last part of the round. Roy attempted the right lead but threw it mostly to JC's body. Roy barely threw or landed any left hooks at all.

I kept waiting for Jones to spring off the ropes with loaded punches which never happened. What was additionally sad/pathetic was that JC showboated every round forever dropping his hands and sticking out his face, even on the inside and Roy never tried to make him pay. Any hope of an RJ comeback was a no hope once he got cut. RJ was far too reluctant/cautious to take chances. RJ used an actual doctor in his corner who claimed they were using a solution to stem the bleeding but all the camera showed was steady pressure from a Q-tip. It was a real bad cut and bled freely. Lesser cuts have resulted in stoppages.

When Ali lost to Holmes I remember him saying that he saw the openings but before he could react they were gone. This is exactly what I thought of during this fight. Roy would feint, angle and position himself but rarely throw. He moved like the Roy of old except when it came to actually throwing punches. Lots of posing instead of punching.

The left jab which Roy usually neglected in his prime should have been used in this fight. In one of the rounds he started firing it and was landing it clean on JC. It was fast and acurate then RJJ just a s quickly abandoned it.

JC was definitely hurt from the KD to the point that I thought we might see the surprise of surprises but Roy saw his opportunity slip away when he couldn't put anything of consequence together afterwards.

Bottom line on JC is the guy has a TON of confidence and is a busy, active and awkward guy who throws a ton of punches and appears tireless. I'm not completely sold on his chin and his punching power is simply weak. He slaps alot of his punches , rarely planting and digging his power shots. He looks amatuerish to my eyes but hey....they guy's never lost so who the hell am I to knock him.

PS: JC looks like a clown when he showboats. Drop the act or use it sparingly unless you want to turn off even more fight fans.

hawk5ins
11-09-2008, 10:54 AM
It's ironic that he has repeatedly stated he has NO RESPECT for Hopkins and had all this repect for Jones, but it's Jones he mocked and clowned with.

I guess given the closeness and competitiveness of his fight with Bernard, that trying to "show up" Hopkins was not all that wise.

No matter how much contempt he had for Hops.

I'm not big on clowning in any circumstance. But I think it shows very little balls to humiliate a fighter who has no ability or resources left to do anything against you. Show some nads and pull that shit with a competitive fighter.

Then let's see how funny you are.

Then again, maybe this was a bit of Karma coming back to Bite Jones in the ass.

Hard.

Hawk

Adeyinka
11-09-2008, 11:00 AM
Ade, I am thinking getting play by play (and btw, I fall into all three categories you described!) on the net is indeed our equvilant of listening to a fight on the radio.

I personally have never listened to a fight on the radio and would think it would be awesome to have been able to do so.

Closest I have come is "watching" scrambled signals of Page Tubbs, Holyfield Mercer and a handful of other fights where the picture on the tube was purposefully mangled and I could only hear the announcers.


Hawk

Hawk,
I guess it's a state of mind which fluctuates with one reason perhaps dominating at the time of any given bout -but like you all three are simultaneously recurring factors with me.

One thing you've got to give to radio announcers is the enthusiam they convey even when nothing major is happening! But I find listening pretty OK because they are speaking over the noise of the arena and I heard a bit of leather and and the rumblings of footwork on the canvas. In fact, during rare intervals of the commentators' banter I even recognised Roy's distinctive snorting; though it appears to have been a case of "all snort and no fire" from him....

10-8
11-09-2008, 11:01 AM
I have no real issue with an Ali dropping his hands against a dangerous, prime Frazier or a Ray Leonard using a bolo against a competitive Duran or Hagler.

Watching JC constantly dropping his hands and doing a shimmy or chicken dance against a 38 year old clearly washed up Jones who was bleeding like a pig in self preservation mode didn't do much for my already limited appreciation of the guy.

bodyblow
11-09-2008, 11:43 AM
you can throw age out the window. Calzaghe is only about 2 years younger than Jones. This is a fight that should have happened YEARS ago but Jones avoided it like he avoided fights with Darius and just about any other threatening challenger.

Michael Frank
11-09-2008, 11:54 AM
I have no real issue with an Ali dropping his hands against a dangerous, prime Frazier or a Ray Leonard using a bolo against a competitive Duran or Hagler.

Watching JC constantly dropping his hands and doing a shimmy or chicken dance against a 38 year old clearly washed up Jones who was bleeding like a pig in self preservation mode didn't do much for my already limited appreciation of the guy.
I agree. Showing up or showing off against a washed up fighter is classless and also pointless. No "fan" enjoys it, either.

Separately, was there any doubt about the outcome before last night? Except for Hopkins, doesn't the old fighter (who was KO'd in some previous recent losses) always lose to the younger champion, and isn't a key reason the older man's propensity to not "get off" (i.e., not to punch)? This is an almost immutable law of the universe, or at least of boxing.

Crold1
11-09-2008, 12:23 PM
I have no real issue with an Ali dropping his hands against a dangerous, prime Frazier or a Ray Leonard using a bolo against a competitive Duran or Hagler.

Watching JC constantly dropping his hands and doing a shimmy or chicken dance against a 38 year old clearly washed up Jones who was bleeding like a pig in self preservation mode didn't do much for my already limited appreciation of the guy.

Please...in this particular case it was nothing but poetic justice. Jones handpicked B and C guys and humiliated them with similar and worse nonsense for years. Calzaghe was the sort of foe he regularly avoided. Now Roy can spend the rest of his life, even knowing he was a great fighter, having tatsed his own medicine and wondering how great he might have been with showing more fighter an d less manager in his prime.

10-8
11-09-2008, 12:32 PM
Cliff, in the past Jones got over-matched guys out of there.

Calzaghe couldn't bust a fermented grape so he resorted to that shit non-stop all fight.

If you in particular enjoy watching that crap in lieu of punching power or at the very least the ability to take out an out-gunned opponent, all the power to you.

I simply don't.

diggity
11-09-2008, 01:30 PM
The showboating was definitely over the top but like many have said, RJJ had it coming. What shocked me the most was how JC would stick his unguarded head right between RJJs gloves over and over all night. I really couldnt describe it fast enough as it was happening last night. There were times he got caught with RJJs shots like this but they didn't do a damn thing. JC toyed with him like a child. Once I saw that JC was not hurt by a punch in the first round, I knew the abberation was over and this was 2 guys fighting at different levels the past 5 years and the difference was now very clear.

The honestly fight became a little hard to watch. RJJ was embarrassed and beaten in every sense of the word. If RJJ was truly just getting "slapped" he would not have been so reserved. There were a few points where RJJ was stunned against the ropes and hand nothing to offer back. JC hurt him to the body all night and it definitely showed.

There is nothing left for RJJ. He is completely spent. BHop would murder him.

JC isnt the most attractive fighter to watch but he is special without a doubt.
I hope he retires. It was a joke how them mentioned Dawson last night. There is nothing more for JC to do.

Kid Dynamite
11-09-2008, 01:37 PM
Jones should have retired after his loss to Glen Johnson. Amazing how a fighter can fall so quickly. He barely won and looked flat out old against Tarver and then went on to lose three in a row.

I didnt watch the fight last night as I thought it was a farce. I caught replays of RJ's fight with Tito and Prince yesterday. I couldnt help but notice how bad Jones looked in both fights. He looked old and he just had trouble getting off. His speed was still pretty good but he was getting hit with shots that he would easily have countered years ago.

Calzaghe is only three years younger but it is easy to see that Roy Jones lost his magic in 2003. Fighters who rely on their God given speed like jones are the ones that fall off early. It was amazing that he could still fight as well as he did until his mid 30's. That he is fighting Calzagle in 2008 is a joke.

10-8
11-09-2008, 01:46 PM
If RJJ was truly just getting "slapped" he would not have been so reserved. There were a few points where RJJ was stunned against the ropes and hand nothing to offer back. JC hurt him to the body all night and it definitely showed.Fair enough Dig but JC threw over 900 punches and landed at something like 35%, most against an immobile Jones. I assume some punches had some zap, but especially viewing those ultra-slow-mo replays of JC's shots, it is apparent that JC doesn't punch with maximum leverage or a puncher's technique.

Let's see the results of a light heavywight who could punch hit Jones with that number and we'll see what would have been left of RJJ and the damage done.

diggity
11-09-2008, 02:47 PM
Hey, I'm not saying JC is a devastating puncher and never did but he absolutely not throwing pillows in there. I just don't see the point on getting down on the lack of JCs punching power. If he were really that weak, he wouldn't be where he is. Its just a useless point IMO. With the exception of BHop, nobody gets out of one of his fights unscathed. RJJ was quoted last night "the pitty-pat shots were harder than I thought they were going to be." Lacy looked like he was in a car accident when JC was done with him. That doesn't happen with pillows.

Anyway
I watched some old RJJ before the fight started and one of the most obvious differences was how his footspeed diminished. As he became more of a flat footed fighter, his decline continued. I think the Hall fight was the last time his footwork was his classic stuff. He used to float effortlessly away from shots, countering from crazy angles. That guy has been gone a long time. After the Hall fight RJJ started to look less and less spectacular, laying on the ropes more & etc. Guys like Gonzales & Woods were hitting RJJ more than they would of years prior.

Last night was especially sad how RJJ would throw the lead right without confidence and was not committing to the shot like he did with Tito back in January.

The punch that KDd JC was not a glancing shot. It was a flush forearm to the nose that JC ducked into. RJJ did land a nice jab before the shot but that was it.

The second round really made it look like it was going to be a fight but that quickly changed in the third where JC stuck his chin out there repeatedly and RJJ threw less & less. JC finished the round with his hands at his sides, baiting RJJ. RJJ threw like 3 or 4 shots and missed all of them. I really have to credit the body work by JC. It without a doubt took a lot of steam out of him. Nobody went to the body on RJJ like JC did. Every flurry in the corner JC was sure to land body shots. At the end of the 4th, RJJ landed a nice overhand right. JC wobbled in jest with his hands down, RJJ hit him with a 1-2 as he clowned & he didn't blink an eye. It just got worse from there.

TheSentinel
11-09-2008, 03:53 PM
Joe C. is one of the most interesting fighters of the last 30 years due to the divergent opinions about his skills. Some observers feel that he is the best british fighter since WWII. Other people feel that he is inferior to a prime Benn or Eubank. I feel that he is a definite Hall of Famer, and an excellent fighter- just not an all-time great. Joe "slaps" due to his hand injuries, and I believe he does this out of self-preservation. In the Eubank fight, he was throwing hard punches and turning them over. If anything, it's more impressive that he has been able to beat good fighters with limited power. CRold made an excellent point that he compares favorably to Ricardo Lopez when it comes to quality wins.

Julian Jackson
11-09-2008, 04:01 PM
I was unfortunate enough to have purchased this debacle, as it was very hard to watch. Bottom line is: Roy Jones looked AWFUL. Calzaghe dominated the fight, and won fair and square, but I was not remotely impressed by his performance either. It was simply a matter of Calzaghe having a lot more left in the tank than Jones. But, that being said, I feel that my opinion of Jones' entire career will be subject to more scrutiny now, because once again Roy showed ABSOLUTELY NO HEART! He was fortunate to have caught Joe in the 1st round (How that grazing punch could hurt Calzaghe,I have no idea, but it did) But after that knockdown, Roy was too timid to do ANY follow up. Roy then proceeded to throw almost no meaningful punches the rest of the fight. Calzaghe did his usual high-volume garbage slapping, but at least he was staying busy. Roy didn't even try. Quite frankly, it appeared that Roy wanted his corner to stop the fight from about the 8th row on. Luckily for his legacy, they did not, and as time passes, people will no doubt forget just how pathetic Jones performance was last night. But what really struck me was just how average a boxer Roy Jones truly is. Don't get me wrong, in his prime he was a force to be reckoned with in the ring, but it is clear that his previous prowess was based on excellent power and unimaginable quickness as opposed to boxing skill. Roy has a large highlight reel of great knockouts, but what you will notice is that they usually just come out of nowhere, as opposed to being set up properly. This weakness in Jone's armour was all too clear last night, as he had no game plan at all once his previously lightning-fast hooks kept missing the target. Roy Jones is still no-doubt a first ballot hall-of-fame fighter, but in retropect, my grades for him would be as follows. Speed: A++, Power: A, Ring generalship: B+, Stamina: B, Boxing Ability: C+, Chin: C, and Heart: D. Luckily for Roy, his god-given talents prevented him from ever needing to dig deep, because in my opinion it was never something he was going to do well.

diggity
11-09-2008, 06:17 PM
RJJ lasted for a while just on his handspeed once his footwork deteriorated. Once he was railroaded by Johnson, & did not have the confidence to rely on handspeed anymore. At that point there was nothing left to set him apart from others than the fear that there was some old Roy in there somewhere. JC didn't buy it.

How strange was it that JC was KDd in round 1 and had a cut on the nose by round 2 in both of his fights in the states?

diggity
11-09-2008, 06:24 PM
Roy's physique definitely went under a dramatic transformation after the win over Ruiz. His muscle bellies did not have the peaks they once did nor did Roy have the same definition. Granted he was older but I really can't argue that he was probably on something starting somewhere around his fight with Toney. Back then his physique was somewhat believable but afterwards the muscles kept getting bigger and he was more defined. I remember in the Paz fight in particular how ridiculously shredded he looked. Griffin & Hill he had that exaggerated look as well.

wolgast
11-09-2008, 06:29 PM
Revisionist fight fans drooled over Roy Jones for years, watching him beat up mediocre challengers like Ricky Frazier, rather than unify the title against Dariusz Michalczewski. Everyone was amazed when he knocked out Glen Kelly with his hands behind his back. I would have loved to have seen Roy try that trick against Harold Johnson or Lloyd Marshall or Archie Moore or Bob Foster.

hawk5ins
11-09-2008, 06:38 PM
I maintain in the days of Same day Weighins and no 168 pound weight class to bridge to and a Light heavyweight champion a bit more daunting than a 41 year old interim LH Champ in Mike McCallum who just lost to Fabrice Tiozzo, Jones NEVER leaves the Middleweight division.

Hawk

Crold1
11-09-2008, 07:19 PM
I maintain in the days of Same day Weighins and no 168 pound weight class to bridge to and a Light heavyweight champion a bit more daunting than a 41 year old interim LH Champ in Mike McCallum who just lost to Fabrice Tiozzo, Jones NEVER leaves the Middleweight division.

Hawk

Quite the opposite; Roy struggled mightily to make 60 by 92. Roy would always have been what he was...a smallish Light Heavy about the same size as Conn.

Crold1
11-09-2008, 07:27 PM
Cliff, in the past Jones got over-matched guys out of there.

Calzaghe couldn't bust a fermented grape so he resorted to that shit non-stop all fight.

If you in particular enjoy watching that crap in lieu of punching power or at the very least the ability to take out an out-gunned opponent, all the power to you.

I simply don't.

I don't enjoy it; I said it was poetic justice. It's only occasionally entertaining and stopped being late in the fight but gave the crowd their money's worth. I could care less about his lack of stoppages in recent years. Harry Greb couldn't bust a fermented grape either, nor many other fighters who've amassed great careers.

hawk5ins
11-09-2008, 07:28 PM
He enters into the Pro game under the rules of Same day weighins and NO 168 pound weight class he either busts his ass like every other middle in history and KEEPS or MAKES himself a Middle. Or he moves up to 175 much sooner than he did.

But GIVEN there would be no rest stop at Middle, does he make the STRAIGHT jump to 175? And SPECIFICALLY if there is a Light Heavy champ looming in the future for him of the mold of Spinks or Foster?

I say NO WAY it happens and he Keeps his body in shape as a Middle.....from the get go.

24 to 36 hour weighins completely changes the preperation for a fighter to make weight that making weight same day does. That false sense of security to "be bigger" and then put the weight back on after the weighin, changes what a fighters Walk around weight is.

I say we see Jones as A middle for his entire career and a jump ONLY happens if a Foster gets knocked off or a Spinks moves up.

Hawk

Crold1
11-09-2008, 07:31 PM
Roy was a workaholic starving himself to make 60; go back and read press accounts of the time even before Hopkins. I spent a few hours in Lexis on this one day culling through old newspaper archives. No way he would ever have been a career Middle. He's about the same size as Conn with thicker muscle mass. The only reason this myth still exists is because Roy excused not taking certain fights by saying he was really a 'Middleweight' which is about as true as it would have been for Ezzard Charles.

hawk5ins
11-09-2008, 08:05 PM
with the cushion of 24 to 36 (or simply day before) weighins, then YES, the struggle grows over years. Whihc is why fighters can't stay in one class.

He begins OUT with same day weighins, he either Stays at 160 or he truns pro at 175. I say he stays at 160.

Hawk

Crold1
11-09-2008, 08:16 PM
Jones though was a fighter who rarely put on much weight after those weigh-ins at 68 and 75, often coming in at or below weight for fight time. It indicates he trained to best weight, always smarter, and also indicates a guy just a shade too big for a career at Middleweight.

We can do this all day; no way of knowing for sure. :)

Ron Lipton
11-09-2008, 08:52 PM
I posted a detailed comment on RJJ steroid use, it seems to have disappeared?

bodyblow
11-09-2008, 10:57 PM
Im glad somebody mentioned steroids. Jones was struggling to make 160 by 92 because of steroids not because he was growing out of the division. Until steroids started proliferating you saw guys fight 75 percent of their careers in one weight class as a rule, nowadays guys routinely grow out of weight classes by adding 10, 20, 30 or more pounds of solid muscle with no fat in an endurance sport. Sorry but its naive to think this is done naturally or with "modern" training techniques.

hagler04
11-09-2008, 11:31 PM
Didn't see the fight but based on what I read it went exactly as I expected. Roy looked awful vs a fat old inactive Tito . . .he sure as hell wasn't going to 'turn back the clock' against a top 3 PFPer in Calzaghe.

I do take issue with some seeming to say that Jones was always just a front runner and never had heart. Sure, he's gone to the ropes and seemed listless vs Tarver in the rubber match, and apparently here, but at his peak he took some heavy shots from guys putting on the pressure, including Hopkins, Griffith (1st fight) and Sosa and came right back. He came from behind in the first Tarver fight to close out strong. He reportedly went to war a few times in the amateurs with the G-Man standing toe to toe the whole way . . .to sum it up, the guy's no Wlad Klit-style front runner.

I think after the Johnson fight he basically decided to keep boxing b/c it's all he knows and he still enjoys the attention it brings, along with the competition. But his hunger left a long time ago.

Questions about his chin or ducking top guys in the late 90s are very valid, but there shouldn't be a re-written history alledging he was just a protected flash of style with no substance.

Off The River
11-09-2008, 11:55 PM
I wouldn't go as far as saying he was protected. At the same time, if he really wanted to cement his legacy, he would have and could have made fights with Calzaghe and Michealczweski.

Again, it was in one way, a sad thing to see the once "great" Jones taunted and beaten so decisevly, but part of me enjoyed it for all the years he strutted and taunted other, lesser fighters .

Also, Jones was smiling and laughing at Zag's early on and throughout the fight. I don't want to see Jones hurt, but I have never been a fan since the fight where he slapped his foot with his glove and hit the guy. ( can't remember who it was) The Glen Kelly fight really pissed me off as well.

Crold, you made the same point I was going to make about Harry Greb. Calzaghe overwhelmes people with speed angles awkwardness and volume. He has a damn fine beard as well.

Crold1
11-10-2008, 12:17 AM
Calzaghe is a legit ATG; the Jones fight didn't make him that. It was just further confirmation of the obvious. He fulfills all of the things we'd ask for in a modern fighter. Could he have fought in any era and been world class? yes. Did he dominate a division? yes. Did he fight the right fights by the time he was done and win them? yes. As long as there is a Super Middleweight class, he will be its Gold Standard.

diggity
11-10-2008, 12:56 AM
I don't know what happened to the post Ron but my reply was based on it. The board has been acting up the past few days.

Ron Lipton
11-10-2008, 01:05 AM
Thanks Dig,
I feel a lot of his wins were fraught with an unfair chemical advantage which increased his speed, reflexes and power. He had been found to be using them as was Holyfield and Paz. If you look at them prior to the use of these performing enhancing drugs their builds are like night and day. RJJ had great skills to be sure, but an unfair advantage in boxing is just as questionable if not more than baseball and the consequences therein.

When someone in boxing is selling tickets much is overlooked on occassion.

Once off of the drugs, look what Tarver and Johnson did to Roy and it was not just age. Look at Paz's build as a lightweight pro then he was hanging out with bodybuilding roid boys in his entourage and you saw the rest.
Look at Holyfield's build in his first fight with Qawi, the rest is history.
The people around them were experts in their use and detection and going on and off but the physical changes are there to see, especially in the absence of the drugs.

If used a long time, the remnants of the build achieved through them still remains but subltle differences are there to see, I see that all with RJJ.

Senya13
11-10-2008, 01:32 AM
I feel a lot of his wins were fraught with an unfair chemical advantage which increased his speed, reflexes and power.
Watch his amateur fights, when he was not particularly muscled, he had exceptional speed, reflexes and power back then, and he looked faster at 168 and 175 pounds than he did at 160 or below ONLY because the heavier guys were naturally slower.

Rafael
11-10-2008, 01:36 AM
Did he fight the right fights by the time he was done and win them? yes.

I don't think I agree with this. Please explain.

Calzaghe is an excellent fighter, but not an all time great, IMO. As far as I am concerned, Calzaghe's best win is Kessler. I also think that beating another excellent prime young fighter like Dawson will enhance Joe's legacy far more than beating old versions of Hopkins or Jones (who is basically shot). The victory over Roy is pretty much akin to Lennox Lewis' win over a shot Tyson. I don't think that adding faded or badly faded "names" to your resume adds meaningfully to your legacy. If that is the case, maybe he should try to lure Qawi out of retirement.

Crold1
11-10-2008, 02:01 AM
I don't think I agree with this. Please explain.

Calzaghe is an excellent fighter, but not an all time great, IMO. As far as I am concerned, Calzaghe's best win is Kessler. I also think that beating another excellent prime young fighter like Dawson will enhance Joe's legacy far more than beating old versions of Hopkins or Jones (who is basically shot). The victory over Roy is pretty much akin to Lennox Lewis' win over a shot Tyson. I don't think that adding faded or badly faded "names" to your resume adds meaningfully to your legacy. If that is the case, maybe he should try to lure Qawi out of retirement.

I don't factor the Jones fight much beyond the mass fan psychological affect of the win. Hopkins wasn't badly faded after all and that win's significance increases in light of the Hopkins-Pavlik fight. As to the rest, he really only missed two serious guys at 168: Ottke and Liles. of the two, I feel Liles was the more significant threat and more talented fighter and Kessler and Lacy make up for both IMO.

prototypeofamodernmadman
11-10-2008, 02:24 AM
I just watched the fight a couple of hours ago, I downloaded an HD rip, the fight was entertaining through the first 6 rounds or so, after that, and especially after Roy got cut, I kind of just felt sorry for Roy with that horrible cut, he looked awful,

as for the first round knockdown, I think Calzaghe has always had a great chin but it seems to be getting a little weaker at his age, (but he still has a great chin and great recuperative powers as well) I think it was the shock of coming so early in the fight combined with where it landed, right on the nose, more than Cal having a bad chin, it is weird though that he's been dropped in the first by the first two really tough, experienced world class American fighters that he's faced,

the showboating was kind of funny, especially when Cal would do the drunk dance after getting tagged, and hey, like has been said here already, Roy showboated over no hopers and bums his whole career,

about Roy's cut, I'm guessing that because he's never had problems with cuts throughout his career, he and his corner didn't really have the experience or know how to really do anything, man, between the 10th and 11th round, the cut man was leaning over in that terrible position, and he had one hand holding a q-tip in roys eye and he dropped something out of his other hand, so while he's holding the q-tip to Roy's eye, you can see that he's also reaching on the ground for whatever he dropped, rubbing the q-tip all in the cut in the process, and then he eventually just drops the q-tip, man that was awful,

one more thing, I don't want to get too long winded here, about Cal's punching power, I remember early on in his career he used to sit down on his shots more and scored more kayo's, I think his hands are probably brittle or something that made him switch more to the flashy pitty pat flurries,

Off The River
11-10-2008, 03:19 AM
Again, this is why I enjoyed the showboating done by Calzaghe.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=gexazLr6pSY

walshb
11-10-2008, 03:19 AM
Can't believe I stayed up for that sham fight. Cal completely dominated from 2-12.

Jones had nothing to offer. Cal is without doubt past it too; but still too much for
Jones, who is 10 years past it.

I think Cal carried Jones for the last 1/3 of the bout.

walshb
11-10-2008, 03:26 AM
I watched 3 hours solid of Cal on Saturday afternoon and I have changed my opinion of him. He really is a true warrior and deserves a lot of credit. Great stamina and heart and is so determined and so focused.

I just think his career went without much notice and the opposition wasn't great; but it was good, and Cal did all he had to win.

Even now, I wouldn't be as confident that Jones at peak would have his way with Cal.

Cal at peak was a whole different fighter than the one we saw V HOP and Jones!

BTW, the shot that dropped Cal in rd 1 was a forearm shot!

walshb
11-10-2008, 05:08 AM
Whatever about Kessler being average to above average, OK, I will say that he was miles better than Lacy; whom I consider to be nothing of note.

I used the word 'useless' because V Cal, that's what he was!
Plain and simple 'useless!' Cal was part of the reason for this; but far from the only reason.
Lacy had nothing to offer and was simply over hyped!

Kessler was a very hard fought win for Joe and he deserves credit
for that win; Cal being past his best! I rate Kessler as good, not great. The 'average' comment was
probably a little harsh, but when I look at Kessler and match him against
other great 168lb men, he doesn't quite cut it.

Cal has risen in my estimation, not because of the sham V Jones; but
because of my 3 hours viewing him on Saturday. He's a great fighter!

One last thing: I don't believe this will be Cal's final fight at all. It wouldn't be a great
one to remember. I think he'll be tempted for one or two more fights.

jim glen
11-10-2008, 11:43 AM
I expected and wanted to see the Jones of old and I did; I saw the "Oldman" Jones much to my disappointment and I salute you the old boys here at the CBZ who knew "it just isn't there anymore"...

Jones should finish NOW where he still has a certain respect and a more than credable legacy. That performance was painful from the 7th onward, I told my boys that he has too/he'd better turn it around in the 7th and I knew by the 8th it was over and expected a stoppage in the 9th - Jones just wasn't there, in fact when you seen at the opening intro Jones showed a bit of reservation and Calzaghe was nothing less than SURE.

I'm really tired of these "pawing" fighters and Byrd, Jones and Hopkins are the quilty culprates of the style more often than not to spoiler fights, thank God there all coming to an end. Jones in his prime excelent, Hopkins in the few performances like he had last week great, Byrd - OK and maybe a little better, anyhow I'm not a fan of this fighting style and I'm glad it's over. Roy hang em up, I can't see you pulling off a Hopkins, sorry.

Joe Calzaghe, credit where it's due, I'm still not a big fan and was more in favour of the Calzaghe- Hopkins-Jones bouts years ago where Hopkinns would have more than likely been beaten and Jones would have surely stopped Calzaghe.... anyway Calzaghe it's got to be said is 110 % fit and never seems to tire, coupled with his modest self believe and non-sensationalist approach to his training and camps has got to be what has produced a competent and capable champion, I only wish he where a more stylish boxer with a big punch. But the man deserves his Kodo's provided they are in context to the many greats who preceded him.

Hats off to you Joe & Enzo Calzaghe and team, a bit of the simple, modest just go out and do the business Old School. Well Done.

I agree Walsh he might just find a few more, silently and subtlely as he encroaches on Marcianno's record!

OMG65
11-10-2008, 12:50 PM
If Calzaghe is the best pound for pounder in boxing today,what does that say about the sport now?Put him in the late 70's/early 80's light heavyweight class and he is just a fringe contender IMO.

jim glen
11-10-2008, 01:11 PM
I expected and wanted to see the Jones of old and I did; I saw the "Oldman" Jones much to my disappointment and I salute you the old boys here at the CBZ who knew "it just isn't there anymore"...

Jones should finish NOW where he still has a certain respect and a more than credable legacy. That performance was painful from the 7th onward, I told my boys that he has too/he'd better turn it around in the 7th and I knew by the 8th it was over and expected a stoppage in the 9th - Jones just wasn't there, in fact when you seen at the opening intro Jones showed a bit of reservation and Calzaghe was nothing less than SURE.

I'm really tired of these "pawing" fighters and Byrd, Jones and Hopkins are the quilty culprates of the style more often than not to spoiler fights, thank God there all coming to an end. Jones in his prime excelent, Hopkins in the few performances like he had last week great, Byrd - OK and maybe a little better, anyhow I'm not a fan of this fighting style and I'm glad it's over. Roy hang em up, I can't see you pulling off a Hopkins, sorry.

Joe Calzaghe, credit where it's due, I'm still not a big fan and was more in favour of the Calzaghe- Hopkins-Jones bouts years ago where Hopkinns would have more than likely been beaten and Jones would have surely stopped Calzaghe.... anyway Calzaghe it's got to be said is 110 % fit and never seems to tire, coupled with his modest self believe and non-sensationalist approach to his training and camps has got to be what has produced a competent and capable champion, I only wish he where a more stylish boxer with a big punch. But the man deserves his Kodo's provided they are in context to the many greats who preceded him.

Hats off to you Joe & Enzo Calzaghe and team, a bit of the simple, modest just go out and do the business Old School. Well Done.

I agree Walsh he might just find a few more, silently and subtlely as he encroaches on Marcianno's record!

10-8
11-10-2008, 01:20 PM
I'm really tired of these "pawing" fighters and Byrd, Jones and Hopkins are the quilty culprates of the style more often than not to spoiler fights, thank God there all coming to an end. I agree with you there big Jim. There were times in the fight where that's all Jones would do, with no punch output. It just looked awkward and plain awful not to mention completely ineffective.

diggity
11-10-2008, 02:12 PM
I watched 3 hours solid of Cal on Saturday afternoon and I have changed my opinion of him. He really is a true warrior and deserves a lot of credit. Great stamina and heart and is so determined and so focused.

Just curious what fights you watched to change your mind?

hawk5ins
11-10-2008, 02:28 PM
Given that this comment of mine previously:

"WIns over Eubank, Reid, Brewer, Mitchell, ruining Lacy, Kessler and the close and arguable duke over Hopkins (who was coming off of two impressive showings), I think deserve some merit when evaluating him."

Was met with:

"I rate Kessler as average, Lacy as 'useless,' Reid as average to above average and Eubank as very very good, but he was well past his peak."

HONESTLY, I'm not trying to be a D*ck here, but if one viewed the better crop of Cal's opponents as weak, to useless, I'm not sure how re-watching these fights can change one's opinion of the man.

I understand Walsh that you have "re-explained" or "clarified" your positions on the fighters I listed previously and you commented on, but it doesn't sound as though you have any different of an opinion as to their overall quality.

I have to think that you are placing SOME amount of weight in Joe's performance agianst Jones to have changed your mind about him as a fighter.

You've gone from: "very good, but nothing excellent" to "He's a great fighter!" In just a couple of days, with only the Jones fight having taken place between assessments.

If his OLD Opp has not elevated in your eyes, what was it you saw that changed your mind?

YES, we are allowed to change our minds. I'm just wondering WHAT it was that did change your opinion of him.

Hawk

TDKO
11-10-2008, 03:41 PM
No surprises in this fight.......RJJ just could not get off, you could see him desperately looking for openeings in the last 6 rounds, but he could not pull the trigger.
I do not understand the lack of love for Joe on this board, I have stated before I thought he was a great fighter, just not and all time great, maybe time to reconsider...maybe. What if he fights and beats Chad Dawson?
I am impressed with Chad's speed and combinations, but would he have the ring savy to deal with Joe at this early stage?
Joe has the ability to adapt to his opponent after a couple rounds , and impose his style, albeit not pretty on them, his pace and volume overwhelm, and force fighters out of their gameplan, and they must attempt to adjust to his.
Kind of like MBA, Joe used to be more of a puncher, but injuries forced him to adjust his style, MAB became a Master Boxer, who could also adapt to his opponent and counterpunch accordingly, (till he got old)., Joe uses an aggresive pace and volume with good movement and distance, and his "slapping" made a mess out of Lacy and RJJ's faces.
His legs are still good, RJJ's have been shot since Ruiz.

diggity
11-10-2008, 03:48 PM
Also because he has a lot of ugly fights in there. You really have to go back to 1999-2002 to see what he used to be about. Between them and Lacy are just a string of either short or ugly fights. Ashira, Saleem, Bika, Mkrtchian (although he beat either Bika or Ashira with just his right) are all hard to watch. One thing you can take away from those is that JC can fight ugly and win which I thought was a big plus for him when he was to fight Hopkins. Brewer & Sheika were probably his most entertaining fights from back then. Reid was a decent fight too.

bodyblow
11-10-2008, 04:48 PM
Hopkins pawing? Did someone miss his last fight against a big banger where he was the one doing all the banging?

jim glen
11-10-2008, 05:27 PM
did you read the full post???

walshb
11-11-2008, 03:44 AM
Just curious what fights you watched to change your mind?
Just his body of work in general. I watched his attitude and focus and commitment.
I was hugely impressed and I genuinely have not given Joe enough credit.
I still think he doesn't hit properly and that he hasn't a great punch; but his heart
and his determination and his will to win and his work rate and his fine speed and footwork are all tremendous attributes.

I stick by my assessment of some of his foes, with Kessler being better than average. That was incorrect diggity.

walshb
11-11-2008, 03:49 AM
Given that this comment of mine previously:





I have to think that you are placing SOME amount of weight in Joe's performance agianst Jones to have changed your mind about him as a fighter.


If his OLD Opp has not elevated in your eyes, what was it you saw that changed your mind?

YES, we are allowed to change our minds. I'm just wondering WHAT it was that did change your opinion of him.

Hawk

Are you serious?

Joe has not been at peak for a few years now and the Jones and HOP fights were IMO shams!

How could I possibly be elevating Joe based on the Jones fight? I really think you need to read what posters are writing before jumping in with both feet. I already stated in previous posts that the Jones and HOP fights were not great and were not PEAK Cal fights! And the fact that the 3 hrs I watched were before the Jones fight may be an indicator here. Oh, sorry, I didn't say that in my original post did I?
Actually, I think I did. You obviously skipped past that bit!

"I watched 3 hours solid of Cal on Saturday afternoon and I have changed my opinion of him. He really is a true warrior and deserves a lot of credit. Great stamina and heart and is so determined and so focused."

The above quote in BOLD is from a previous post in this thread. Sorry for being so 'anal' here, but Hawk, you are a 'divil' for precision! The 'Saturday afternoon' I would have thought gave it away!


I said I watched 3 hrs and I actually really studied Joe and although his victims are not legendary, he still always found a way to win. I admire this with him.

I still believe his OLD OPP are not great fighters; but his wins and his commitment and determination and his beating of them is IMO impressive. Nothing more-nothing less!

I haven't said he is now the greatest ever and I still believe that he would lose to Jones at
peak, although it would be a close fight and I think James Toney (peak) still beats Joe at 168; and
maybe by KO! I know previously I said Jones by clean KO; which is still a distinct possibility, (any man can
be clean KO'd)
due to Jones speed and power; however, Joe's traits and skills could see this as a real
close fight!

One area I am still uncertain about is his chin. It's good, but great? I'm not so sure.
He has been down several times and hurt several times by punches that
weren't absolute dingers.

I simply under rated Joe and I have to admit, he impresses me now.

And finally, Lacy is, or was IMO, 'useless' the night Joe beat him.
I simply do not rate that guy at all! All credit to Joe
for exposing it!

walshb
11-11-2008, 06:20 AM
post #45&#55 are two more clear indicators that I did not rate or would not rate Cal
any better because of the Jones bout!

hawk5ins
11-11-2008, 08:47 AM
I read your post.

I read where you said it was the 3 hour viewing of his fights. I read where you claimed your change of view on Joe had NOTHING to do with the Jones fight.

I have also read where you stated his opposition is not all that and a bag of chips. A position that you have reaffirmed here.

You went from Your assessment of Joe bein "very good, but nothing excellent" to "He's a great fighter!".

I personally think that is quite a jump if you are basing Joe's performances agianst the same opp that you were not impressed with. The same opp that only allowed you to lable him "Very good, but nothing excellent".

That's all.

Hawk

Overhand_Right
11-11-2008, 08:50 AM
I think its both sad and bad for the sport that this guy who padded his record and laid low in the UK for 10 years is now going out with all this praise & hype in the press for beating two middle aged men.

It shows that there is a route you can take in boxing where you can duck many challengers and cap it off by picking & choosing a hasbeen or two and go out a pound for pound 'great' and all this nonsense.

In that first rd i thought Jones was going to expose Cal, but no, Jones just has nothing left and can do nothing but try survive to the final bell.

walshb
11-11-2008, 09:01 AM
I read your post.

I read where you said it was the 3 hour viewing of his fights. I read where you claimed your change of view on Joe had NOTHING to do with the Jones fight.

I have also read where you stated his opposition is not all that and a bag of chips. A position that you have reaffirmed here.

You went from Your assessment of Joe bein "very good, but nothing excellent" to "He's a great fighter!".

I personally think that is quite a jump if you are basing Joe's performances agianst the same opp that you were not impressed with. The same opp that only allowed you to lable him "Very good, but nothing excellent".

That's all.

Hawk

Fair enough, I just was impressed after really watching Joe. He has traits that I find inspiring and he has risen in my estimation. I will admit that from those 3 hrs of viewing he has gone from very good to a great fighter. But, that IMO is not a massive leap. He is still below some other great fighters I rate. If I rated him a 6/10 before, I now rate him an 8.5/10

It's sort of like another thread on the CBZ which I think you started 'Fighters I overrate'
This could be the opposite of that thread (Fighters I underrate) and Cal would be TOP of my list!

hawk5ins
11-11-2008, 09:36 AM
Back atcha.

Hawk

Off The River
11-11-2008, 09:48 AM
Overhand Right. Do you think that at any point Jones padded his record?

Kid Dynamite
11-11-2008, 10:33 AM
I agree with Overhand Right...

Let me explain... I feel that Calzaghe is a damn good fighter. But he did lay low for the majority of his career. Jeff Lacy seems to be his only big win against a top level fighter in his prime. I remember when Frank Warren and Calzaghe hailed his win over Charles Brewer as his biggest victory. I think he is a damn good fighter but he never wanted to leave England until the big boys past their prime.

This win against Roy Jones doesnt mean sh/t.. Roy was beat down badly in three fights in a row over three years ago. I doubt Roy could beat any top 10 fighter in his division at this point.

Jones might have taken a few easy fights here and there but he did beat James Tony in his prime and did beat Hopkins, Virgil Hill, and countless other current, former, or would be champions.. Not to mention that he did clean out the light heavyweight division. Darius Michas(spelling) seems to be the only fighter in that division that he didnt fight. Although there is strong evidence that Darius never wanted to leave Germany.

hawk5ins
11-11-2008, 10:52 AM
I'll be honest and up front here: I didn't pay very much attention to Calzaghe for the vast majority of his career.

Knew he was a WBO titliest. Defeated a few names here and there, but hadn't really seen him all that much if at all, let alone pay him attention or any mind.

So GIVEN that admittance of ignorance on my part.....were there specific times in his career where he refused to step up the competition? Where he avoided a challenge? Was there ever discussions detailed or surface level, re matchups with Hop or Jones, say 5 or 6 or more years ago?

I HONESTLY don't recall any of that talk. I'm not saying it didn't happen and Joe didn't back away from those challenges. But nothing rings a bell.

Was it a case where in order to be a viable challenge for someone he needed to make a name for himself. But in order to make a name for himself, he needed those challeges?

What was the desire of a Jones or a Hopkins to face Joe? Was it even WORTH it to them to face a fighter, who frankly was not on the radar as far as a big name fighter.

So, was it Joe Purposefully laying low or him not being afforded an opportunity to get in with the bigger names.

Heck Prior to the Jeff Lacy bout, was Joe on anyone's pound for pound list?

I just want to know what year is it, that Joe should have more aggressively made his move.

Hawk

diggity
11-11-2008, 11:01 AM
I know that 1 or 2 dates with Glen Johnson fell through. I don't remember why they fell through. At the time I didn't see the threat but now in retrospect he would have been a very interesting fight for JC.

Ottke was also another fight that never happened but from what I heard, Ottke was at fault for that. That would have been a good fight that I believe JC would have won.

He used to talk about Jones way back when but it wasn't the kind of talk that screamed that he wanted that fight.

I have always been a fan of JC but the Mitchell fight scared me that he may have just been fighting garbage for too long. At the time JC was going through a separation and said he came at Mitchell wildly more in a release of anger, so I kind of forgave him for that but it still left a taste in my mouth that this guy could be vulnerable against higher competition in any night. He still left his chin in the air when he traded & still had some lapses in his career where he was KDd by much lesser fighters. He basically defended them as not being focused against less than stellar competition, divorce problems outside the ring, etc. It left me wondering if he could ever fight a 100% focused fight anymore and would those hands hold up that he always complained about.

Then the Lacy fight was signed I thought to myself "If there is a fight he needs to be 100% focused, its this one." I knew that Lacy could not hold a candle to JC's boxing but I had a hard time believing that JC would not make a mistake and eventually be caught by one of Lacy's clubbing shots. Well the rest was history and at that moment I believed that a focused JC really should never be bet against. People can talk all the garbage they want about Lacy I maintain that there is no other boxer out there today that would have beaten Lacy so badly that night. It was not just your run of the mill, one-sided fight. It was a beautiful massacre. JC hit him with everything in the book, stood in front of him, made him miss, etc. The one or 2 times Lacy hit JC with a solid shot, it did nothing. There was not one element of boxing missing from that fight.

That being said, I do not think JC would be the fighter he is today without such a dominant win over Lacy. After that fight, I think JC's confidence skyrocketed and propelled him through the following 4 years or so. Maybe without that fight, he does not get past Kessler or even further a result of that, Hopkins.

Just a theory.

Mike DeLisa
11-11-2008, 11:44 AM
Diggity makes a good point about confidence -- the old-timers would talk about how winning the championship made a fighter 20% better. The notion was that the increased confidence and stature derived from beating a champion had a significant positive value. Today, that concept is diluted because of the proliferation of alphabet bouts, but in certain instances (ie wins such as JC over Lacy), I think that hoary maxim shows continued life.


PS

For "technical reasons" I had to switch between the UK call and the HBO call of the fight. I can't begin to tell you how horrible the HBO call was in contrast. Max in particular came off second best in comparison. IMHO, the HBO broadcasters simply didn't focus on the fight itself. And for that crew to talk about RJJ's valiant effort after having been cut -- well, there, they are just pulling a story out of their ass since Roy went into his shell early on.

Crold1
11-11-2008, 11:53 AM
I know that 1 or 2 dates with Glen Johnson fell through. I don't remember why they fell through. At the time I didn't see the threat but now in retrospect he would have been a very interesting fight for JC.

Ottke was also another fight that never happened but from what I heard, Ottke was at fault for that. That would have been a good fight that I believe JC would have won.

He used to talk about Jones way back when but it wasn't the kind of talk that screamed that he wanted that fight.

I have always been a fan of JC but the Mitchell fight scared me that he may have just been fighting garbage for too long. At the time JC was going through a separation and said he came at Mitchell wildly more in a release of anger, so I kind of forgave him for that but it still left a taste in my mouth that this guy could be vulnerable against higher competition in any night. He still left his chin in the air when he traded & still had some lapses in his career where he was KDd by much lesser fighters. He basically defended them as not being focused against less than stellar competition, divorce problems outside the ring, etc. It left me wondering if he could ever fight a 100% focused fight anymore and would those hands hold up that he always complained about.

Then the Lacy fight was signed I thought to myself "If there is a fight he needs to be 100% focused, its this one." I knew that Lacy could not hold a candle to JC's boxing but I had a hard time believing that JC would not make a mistake and eventually be caught by one of Lacy's clubbing shots. Well the rest was history and at that moment I believed that a focused JC really should never be bet against. People can talk all the garbage they want about Lacy I maintain that there is no other boxer out there today that would have beaten Lacy so badly that night. It was not just your run of the mill, one-sided fight. It was a beautiful massacre. JC hit him with everything in the book, stood in front of him, made him miss, etc. The one or 2 times Lacy hit JC with a solid shot, it did nothing. There was not one element of boxing missing from that fight.

That being said, I do not think JC would be the fighter he is today without such a dominant win over Lacy. After that fight, I think JC's confidence skyrocketed and propelled him through the following 4 years or so. Maybe without that fight, he does not get past Kessler or even further a result of that, Hopkins.

Just a theory.

He busted his mitts in training for Johnson twice and pulled out. As for Ottke, it wasn't the fighters as much as the German promoter knowing better. Ottke in his last seven-eight defenses was often terrible.

Good point on confidence after Lacy, but I'd also say he showed similar 'up-ness' anytime he had an American at that point. Mitchell and Brewer weren't A-plus guys, but he got up for both, literally with Mitchell.

hawk5ins
11-11-2008, 12:00 PM
From what little I had seen of him prior to Lacy and then going and looking at tapes following that win, the Joe C going forward just overflowed with confidence boardering on arrogance (arrogance is NOT a bad thing ncessarily).

Back to the point of Joe and talks with Jones.....I'm doing STRICT time lines here and they are NOT based on my feel for Joe back during this time as I admit, I didn't follow him much if at all pre Lacy.

But in 2003, Jones was having his heavyweight experiment and then came back down and nearly lost to Tarver.

2004, he was iced in consecutive bouts agianst Tarver and Johnson.

I realize Joe won the WBO title in late 1997.....but I HAVE to assume that any talks with Jones HAD to be what, 2000, 2001 or 2002? ANd if Hopkins was being entertained, same time frame.

I'm just trying to get a grasp on Joe and the sentiments about him during this period, becuase frankly....I didn't pay attention.

Hawk

diggity
11-11-2008, 12:45 PM
I'm not saying that JC didn't necessarily want to fight RJJ back then. The lack of emotion could have been the reality of the time that JC was very far down on RJJ's list of possibilities at the moment, although having a perfect record, a belt and being known for fighting nobodys in Europe and having defensive lapses to boot had to tweak RJJ's interest. Unless he knew something we didn't back then, which I doubt.

One fight I would have liked to see back then was a JC vs Dariusz.
They never seemed to be on each others radar but probably should have been.
You would figure a win over him would have really pressed the case for RJJ.

hawk5ins
11-11-2008, 12:47 PM
Hawk

Overhand_Right
11-11-2008, 01:09 PM
Overhand Right. Do you think that at any point Jones padded his record?


YES!!!

But amongst the padding you have Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, a good come back via 1 rd kayo over Montell Griffin, Virgil Hill, and a dangerous excursion at heavyweight v John Ruiz, 4 weight classes in all.

You cant honestly compare that to Joe frickin Calzaghe.

Calzaghes 'great wins' over Hopkins and Jones are about the same as RJJs win over Mike McCallum, at least IMO.

Crold1
11-11-2008, 01:28 PM
No, but you can give him the utmost credit for ruining a promising young guy (Lacy), beating Kessler, making a huge leap from fringe contender to beating a vastly more experienced and still game Eubank and beating lots of solid if not quite "wow" fighters (Reid, Woodhall, Sheika, Mitchell, Brewer) to go with the best of his crew and sticking at the top of his game for some ten years plus.

This era of Boxiung is all wrapped up in handfuls of fights amidst wreckgae. He dominated his handful and we can't assume he's done yet. IF he fought Dawson and IF he won, he'd be able to say he stopped the best next gen guys in two weight classes past his peak along with the still very good Hopkins and everything that came before. His resume at 36 is superior to what Hopkins had at the same age.

And to equate his win over Hopkins to McCallum is wildly unfair. Hopkins followed Calzaghe with the second best if not the best performance of his career and was coming off dominant wins over Wright, Tarver and two questionable losses to a young tiger in Taylor. Jones I'll give you, but the Hopkins win, if not the actual aesthetic of the fight, was quality.

hawk5ins
11-11-2008, 01:31 PM
With the help of others filling in the "blanks" for me, it doesn't sound as though Joe purposefully avoided or ducked anyone and simply waited until they all got old before he made a move.

To me, it sounds as though, about the time he should have been making his move to step up the comp (IE Roy Jones), those fighters had other clear agendas that they were working.

2003, after Joe had been a WBO titliest for 5 years, was when Jones went to Heavy and then came back to face Tarver. 2004, he was wiped out by Tarver and Johnson.

2005, was when Hopkins was "beaten" by Taylor and 2006 was when Cal landed a big fight with Lacy to put himself on the map.

COULD he have tried for Hopkins? Well, he'd need Bernard to step up, and it didn't seem at that time, Bernard was looking to move up to 175 or 168 unless the money was there. The Money for Jones evaporated in 2004 and in 2005, was Cal a "big money" fight?

Seems to me, that Cal was stuck in catch 22. In order to make big bucks and a big name for himself, he needed Jones and Hopkins. In order for Jones or Hopkins to face him, he needed to be a big name and bring in the Big Bucks.

FINALLY facing Jones and Hopkins in 2008, doesn't seem calculated. It seems that he finally got them when money could still be made.

Hawk

Crold1
11-11-2008, 01:46 PM
With the help of others filling in the "blanks" for me, it doesn't sound as though Joe purposefully avoided or ducked anyone and simply waited until they all got old before he made a move.

To me, it sounds as though, about the time he should have been making his move to step up the comp (IE Roy Jones), those fighters had other clear agendas that they were working.

2003, after Joe had been a WBO titliest for 5 years, was when Jones went to Heavy and then came back to face Tarver. 2004, he was wiped out by Tarver and Johnson.

2005, was when Hopkins was "beaten" by Taylor and 2006 was when Cal landed a big fight with Lacy to put himself on the map.

COULD he have tried for Hopkins? Well, he'd need Bernard to step up, and it didn't seem at that time, Bernard was looking to move up to 175 or 168 unless the money was there. The Money for Jones evaporated in 2004 and in 2005, was Cal a "big money" fight?

Seems to me, that Cal was stuck in catch 22. In order to make big bucks and a big name for himself, he needed Jones and Hopkins. In order for Jones or Hopkins to face him, he needed to be a big name and bring in the Big Bucks.

FINALLY facing Jones and Hopkins in 2008, doesn't seem calculated. It seems that he finally got them when money could still be made.

Hawk

He was in line for Hopkins in 02-03. Showtime and King had arranged a three-bout contract for BHop when Jones II didn't come off. It would have given Hopkins a defense against the very good Harry Simon for 4-belt unification, a PPV with Calzaghe, and a third fight. Hopkins opted to sit out his contract, deal with the Joppy mando and Hakkar, and then manuever towards an easier, bigger fight with Oscar. The catalyst for no Hopkins-Calzaghe earlier was BHop, not out of Joe fear or anything as much as wanting to get past King.

hawk5ins
11-11-2008, 01:59 PM
That rings a vague bell with me Cliff.

I'm not out to play gotcha or point fingers at a Hopkins or a Jones here anymore than I want to at Joe.

But the comment that he ducked and dodged everyone for 10 years until they got old, even with my ignorance on Cal, didn't seem quite right.

I appreciate the "holes" being filled in.

Thanks.

Hawk

diggity
11-11-2008, 03:11 PM
My only minor problem with JC (& again minor) is that there were at least a couple bigger fights to be made elsewhere without going too far while waiting in line for the shots at the big American fighters. It usually takes 2 to make a fight not happen but it is what it is.

Kessler went to Austrailia to get Mundine. Mundine went to Ottke. Hill, Griffin and Hall all went to see Dariusz while JC couldnt get a fight with either of them and he was right in their backyards. Granted this was a big knock on RJJ also, but Calzaghe could not hold a candle to resumes at that point in time. He was the one who needed to be put on the map. I can understand the thought process RJJ had to a degree where "champions should be sought out" but they also shouldn't be fighting garbage men and cops.

Talk about padding records, what is going on with Mads Larsen?
He was one of the many "close" (cough-cough) fights with Ottke. I haven't heard boo about him since.

Be it as it may, it really does seem like going for the big fights when you are past your prime is the boxing thing to do these days. You may have to give some credit to Pavlik but we all know he didn't think it was going to be that hard & if he did he would have not went near it until Hopkins was 51. The same goes for Lacy & JC.

diggity
11-11-2008, 03:53 PM
I find pleasure in this & it couldn't be more true. Hopkins punched then held almost as bad as Ruiz in that fight.

from fightnews.com

Light heavyweight Joe Calzaghe may return to the ring next year in front of his hometown fans in Wales, but it doesn't sound like a rematch with Bernard Hopkins is high on his list. "Screw Hopkins, man," he told the London Mirror. "He got his a*** kicked by a white boy. He's got to accept that. He's an idiot. A complete a*******. I don't want to give him a rematch. It wouldn't be a good fight. The guy's a racist. He was never going to give me any credit. The way he fought against me in Las Vegas was cowardly because he held on all night and feigned being hit by low blows. He tried to steal the fight." Calzaghe is expected to make an appearance at the WBO Convention this week.

MSM
11-11-2008, 04:00 PM
Not off to a great start posting here at the CBZ. I just typed out a bit from Calzaghe's autobiography but when I went to post it I'd been logged out for some reason and lost it all.

I'll try it again.


Was there ever discussions detailed or surface level, re matchups with Hop or Jones, say 5 or 6 or more years ago?

Jay Larkin's quoted in Calzaghe's autobiography from 2007 as saying the following while he was Showtime TV Network's Senior Vice-President of Sports and Events Programming:

"A teleconference was set up in my office in New York for July 30th, 2002, and on the call was myself, Don King who was in the room, Frank Warren and Bernard Hopkins' lawyer, Arnold Joseph. Along with Arnold was a woman named Linda Carter, who was there on behalf of Bernard.

We asked Arnold if Bernard wanted to fight Joe Calzaghe and we asked him how much money he would want if he did. The response we got was $3 million and the fight would have to take place in the United States. After a little scratching of the head, we said, 'Okay, done.' Frank Warren agreed on the spot, Don King agreed and we agreed, so as far as we were concerned all the parties were singing off the same hymn sheet. Arnold excused himself with Linda and I can only assume it was to call Bernard.

Either that day or the next day, I'm just not certain about that particular timeframe, they came with a new demand: $6 million, double the sum that had been agreed. In addition to the Calzaghe fight, we had offered him $1 million to fight Morrade Hakkar, and the winner of that bout to fight Harry Simon. Then he would have had the bout with Joe but when he came back asking for $6 million, the deal blew up.

I thought that the Hopkins fight was a spectacular prospect, but it wasn't to be. Barnard's pretty shrewd, he's no dummy and has done a wonderful job of self-management in his career, but he had then and still has no desire to fight Joe Calzaghe, that much is pretty clear. Joe gets criticised sometimes for not having fought more big-name Americans, but in this case the fault has never rested with him."

This is from pages 197-198 of the paperback edition.

I like Calzaghe, although he's not a big favourite, but it's a shame this fight didn't happen at this time. I wonder what would have happened to their careers had they fought towards the end of 2002/early 2003.

Also, I'm not sure if many guys on the board are into downloading fights, but I had to download the JC-Jones fight last night.

I'd managed to watch the first 6 rounds on a live feed online, but that went down so I had to listen to the second half of the fight on BBC radio.

Anyway, if anyone wants to download the torrent then there's one here: http://www.mininova.org/com/1996775

After downloading it you'll need to extract the files using WinRAR, and then enter the password, which is: c3105e2a81265764b46eb3e0b6d98842 + blank space.

It's the HBO coverage and is 1 hour 18 minutes long.

diggity
11-11-2008, 04:26 PM
Good find. I do remember Hopkins changing the terms like that (at least according to JC back then).

Rafael
11-11-2008, 06:28 PM
I clearly remember an interview with Frank Warren (circa 2000-2001), where he stated that if Roy Jones wanted to fight Calzaghe, Roy would have to switch networks from HBO to Showtime (where Calzaghe had a contract). So here you have the top p4p fighter and one of the biggest stars in boxing being asked to switch networks to accommodate a challenger. I'm not even sure I'd call that humorous.

Kid Dynamite
11-11-2008, 07:54 PM
Rafael, I also remember those strange demans by Frank Warren...Back around 2000 Calzaghe was running around claiming he was the best in the world for fighting and beating Charles Brewer and a washed up Eubank, Mario Veit, and "Kid Fire" Mcintire.. Warren would make insane demands whenever there were talks about fighting the elite.

I followed Calzaghes career back in 2000. After years of blabbing his mouth and never taking a step foward I just came to believe that he would never leave England. I was shocked when he signed to fight Lacy. I give him all the credit in the world as he stepped in there and beat him to a bloody pulp. But it makes me wonder why he didnt go for the glory when he was younger. Now he is feeding on fighters that belong in a retirement community.

Dont get me wrong. I think he can fight but I just wish he wouldnt have waited tilll he was 35 to step it up.

Crold1
11-12-2008, 08:47 PM
Measured Against All Time - Joe Calzaghe

By Cliff Rold

It shouldn’t matter, but it did. Logic said Joe Calzaghe, while only three years younger, had too much in the tank to be troubled much by a man who still looks like Roy Jones Jr. (52-5, 38 KO) but doesn’t fight much like him anymore. Boxing though is a sport where passions and memories run deep and seeing is believing. Beating big names is often as important as beating better challenges without them. The nature of Calzaghe’s win over Jones, sans logic, is forcing tons of conversation about his place in history which really made just as much sense a week ago.

Following the win over Jones, HBO Boxing analyst Emanuel Steward stated that Calzaghe may have to be considered one of the all-time greats. It’s a statement worth examining. Whether retirement is truly imminent or not, as Calzaghe has hinted back and forth on, there is no doubt Calzaghe is nearing his end. After eleven years as one of the sport’s best, the question is asked:

How good is Joe Calzaghe, measured against all-time?

In answering the question, five categories will be examined:
Accomplishments
Competition Faced
Competition Not Faced
Reaction to Adversity
What’s Left to Prove

With that in mind, let’s head to…

The Tale of the Tape
Age: 36
Height: 6’1
Homeland: Wales, United Kingdom
Turned Professional: October 1, 1993 (TKO1 Paul Hanlon)
Record: 46-0, 32 KO
Titles: WBO Super Middleweight (1997-2008, 21 Defenses); IBF Super Middleweight (2006, 1 Defense); Lineal/Ring Magazine Super Middleweight (2006-08, 3 defenses); WBC & WBA Super Middleweight (2007-08, 0 Defenses); Ring Magazine Light Heavyweight (2008-Present, 1 Defense to date)
Record in Title Fights: 24-0, 11 KO
Current/Former Alphabet Titlists Defeated: 8 (Chris Eubank, Robin Reid, Richie Woodhall, Charles Brewer, Jeff Lacy, Mikkel Kessler, Roy Jones Jr.)
Current/Former Lineal World Champions Defeated: 2 (Byron Mitchell, Bernard Hopkins)

Accomplishments

Calzaghe began his career like many fighters, working through a series of no-hopers and veterans before defeating a 44-2 Luciano Torres to make his way towards an October 1997 shot at the WBO title vacated by Steve Collins. Matched with the vastly more experienced veteran Chris Eubank, a WBO titlist at Middleweight and Super Middleweight before two close losses to Collins in 1995, Calzaghe arrived on the World level with a dominant display. He dropped Eubank in the first round, winning ten rounds on two judge’s scorecards and eight on another in only his 23rd fight to begin his time near the top of the Super Middleweight class.

At that point though, it was only near. Like Bernard Hopkins eight pounds below at Middleweight classic, winning a belt was only the beginning of a proving process which would take years. A 2000 victory over power-punching Omar Sheika began to open eyes and see Calzaghe rated more universally as the division’s best, a spot he’d trade back and forth with undefeated IBF titlist Sven Ottke until about 2003 when Ottke began to show serious slip.

Calzaghe would endure, recognized as the best at 168 lbs. but with the world unsure what that meant as he defended against a slew of average fare. Across the Atlantic, 2000 U.S. Olympian Jeff Lacy was being developed as the future of the class. Knockout wins over respectable opposition like Robin Reid, Syd Vanderpool for the vacant IBF belt, and Rubin Williams had many picking Lacy, some five years Calzaghe’s junior, to ascend in a 2006 showdown with Calzaghe. Instead, the world found out it had been missing out on a special talent. Calzaghe dominated Lacy for almost every second of twelve rounds.

Yet another younger world class foe had emerged at the same time as Lacy, capturing first the WBA title in 2005 and then adding a WBC title in 2006. Some seven years younger and clearly in his prime, Mikkel Kessler of Denmark ran through quality opponents Anthony Mundine, Markus Beyer and Librado Andrade to make his case as the world’s best. In front of 50,000-plus fans in Wales, Calzaghe and Kessler battled on equal terms early in their November 2007 showdown only for Calzaghe to find additional gears and dominate the second half of a memorable war in what would his final showing at Super Middleweight.

He left the division as the most accomplished in its quarter century history, having amassed a record-tying 21 WBO title defenses; having captured every available title in the division; and having earned the right to truly stand out as undisputed king of his domain. While the entirety of his reign was not undisputed, 20-plus defenses remains one of the rarest of feats in Boxing.

This year has seen him capture popular (if not entirely lineal) recognition as Light Heavyweight champion, wresting Ring’s honors from Bernard Hopkins and adding the Jones victory.

Competition Faced

The who and what of Calzaghe’s accomplishments summarized, it turns to the quality of the competition he’s faced. Coming off wins against Kessler, Hopkins and Jones, it’s hard to believe it wasn’t long ago his competition was widely, and rightly, derided. While foes like Mger Mkrtchian and Tocker Pudwill had good records on paper, they didn’t look very good on canvas. Patience became virtue for followers of Calzaghe. By the time he was done at Super Middleweight, the wheat and the chaff could stand together in equal measure.

Eubank, Reid, Brewer, Mitchell, Lacy and Kessler were all former or current titlists and only Reid ever really came close to defeating Calzaghe, losing a split decision in a tough fight. There were other quality wins as well. Sheika was flawed but dangerous; Richie Woodhall was a former Olympic medalist; and Sakio Bika continues to be a handful for any Super Middleweight.

The Jones win adds a spectacular name to his resume, and the nature of the win will excite many, but considering where Roy was in his career it doesn’t merit recognition above Kessler or even Eubank. The Hopkins win looked to some in April like a case of Hopkins age as much as Calzaghe’s quality but, following the 43-year old Hopkins drubbing 26-year old Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik in October, raises in estimation to the level of other of Calzaghe’s biggest wins. Making it more impressive, Calzaghe stands out as the only man ever to dominate Hopkins over the second half of a fight. Not even a young Roy Jones could do that, instead splitting the final eight rounds of their 1993 bout after sweeping the first four rounds on all judge’s cards.

Stacked against the measure of history, Calzaghe’s competition falls short of legendary names like Sam Langford, Harry Greb, and Ray Robinson. To his fortune, so does the competition of everyone else in his time. Modern Boxing boils most careers down to a handful of fights in separating the elite from the very good whereas in other times it boiled down to series of fights against fellow elites and stronger supporting casts. Calzaghe won his handful and most of them comfortably. Fighters like Kessler and Lacy continue with their careers and their successes could add to his legacy. Greatness in this era is a sort of balanced equation pitting who a man faced versus who they didn’t in determining how great a career was really had. The campaign from Lacy to today make the equation look strong in Calzaghe’s favor but…

Competition Not Faced

Read the Rest at: http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=16920

MSM
11-13-2008, 01:02 AM
Here are a couple of interesting articles:

Calzaghe vs. Warren

27.09.08

Following Calzaghe's recent claim that his former promoter Frank Warren 'kept him in shackles' has now seen a formal response to the accusation by Warren in his The Sun newspaper column.

In a weekend that should be concentrating on Calzaghe vacating his WBO world title and his impending fight with Roy Jones junior, the attentsion has now shifted to their rapidly disintegrating former 'friendship' as dark revelations of Calzaghe ducking opponents and an overall lack of commitment to his career.

Warren claims he lost massive sums of cash as Joe found excuse after excuse not to participate in genuine title fights:-

"Once I had to pay opponents cash up front before they would sign a contract because they were afraid of going through weeks of training camps for nothing if he pulled out.

"I worked with US TV network Showtime, and they nicknamed Calzaghe ‘No Show Joe’, not least because of the pullouts and the fact he’d refuse to travel to the States to promote his fights.

"I lost $100,000 to Glen Johnson when Joe pulled out of a world-title fight with him for a second time. This the same Johnson who KO’d Jones four years ago" said Warren in his Sun newspaper column.

Going on to underline Calzaghe's reluctance to fight the very best, in favour of beating up weak opponents, Warren revealed that even the unknown Freeman Barr was prefered to the likes of Johnson:-

"I recall that when I vetoed a fight with Freeman Barr, a dreadful mediocre No 1 mandatory challenger who meant nothing, Joe said that he wanted to face him."

Warren also seemed to share the same opinion as the general boxing public in his assessment of the decision by Calzaghe to fight the 40-year old version of Roy Jones:-

"I preferred the Pavlik fight as Jones is way past his best.

In the 2008 latest edition of his autobiography, Joe states Jones is ‘washed up’ and in an interview in Boxing Monthly said he had ‘no interest’ in fighting Jones.

Now he is trying to make out Jones will provide a legitimate challenge.

Jones will probably get on his bike against Calzaghe — Joe struggles against runners. I believe I could have got Calzaghe far more money than he managed to secure himself.

He agreed a 50-50 purse split with Jones. Roy must have thought he had won the lottery.

After Joe beat Hopkins, HBO pay-per-view exec Mark Taffett told me they didn’t care who he fought next — Calzaghe was the No 1, not Jones or Pavlik.

Over-the-hill Jones brought hardly a thing to the table — and certainly not 50 per cent. A fight against Pavlik, which Arum had agreed, would have done far more for Calzaghe’s legacy."

From: Link (http://www.livefight.com/news/calzaghe-vs-warren_696.html)

Past greats unfairly knocked over in rush to hype Calzaghe's achievement

McGuigan's picture is at odds with reality. Why? The need to sell every morsel of our sport. If the major victim is truth, who cares?

You might say it is impertinent to question the boxing judgement of Barry McGuigan, the Clones Cyclone who flies straight into any serious assessment of British fighting's best post-war performers.

He fought with great courage and wit and when he lost his hard-won world title in the suffocating outdoor heat of Las Vegas, against a Mexican-Texan who was reared in such conditions, they had to take him to hospital with a life-threatening level of dehydration. He even managed not to wilt in the blast of Marco Pierre White's kitchen, and ego, in one of the more engaging reality shows.

Yet, from the perspective of ringside at Madison Square Garden in the early hours of Sunday morning, it was still dismaying to hear that McGuigan, back in the TV studio, had given Joe Calzaghe's defeat of Roy Jones Jnr a quite extraordinary rating.

Of course, it is true that in general there are few more generous souls than those of ex-fighters.

It is one reason why so many of them finish up broke, McGuigan, happily, proving one exception. Yet surely there is a difference between an eagerness to give credit where it is due, and in the process disabusing anyone of the idea that old pride and the angst that can come with the ageing process has turned you into a curmudgeonly critic of all that is new, and flying so far over the top you might be in need of an oxygen mask.

For some at least McGuigan surely flirted with that latter risk when claiming that Calzaghe had not only produced a fabulous, "sublime, absolutely sublime" performance, but established as fact that he simply gets better and better by such margins that it is amazing he should think of quitting at the age of 36.

When McGuigan says things like that you wonder whether the TV studio was located on some distant planet.

Yes, of course Joe Calzaghe showed us again a fine range of formidable gifts but at what point does McGuigan, and a growing army of cheerleaders, feed in the sad but unavoidable fact that here he was fighting the last remnants of a once sensational talent, one that had become the most poignant parody of what it had been?

Who benefits from the avoidance of such an uncomfortable fact, except perhaps Calgazhe if, after the weeks of reflection he has sensibly enough granted himself, decides that in fact the weekend fight was not his last hurrah but the prelude to a hugely profitable farewell at home in his adoring Cardiff bailiwick of the Millennium Stadium?

Certainly, not among the beneficiaries is any sober ranking of great performance – and proper respect for all that has preceded the achievements of boxing in Calzaghe's native valleys and the rest of Britain.

By giving so generously to Joe, surely it is at cost to the memory of such fighters as Kenny Buchanan, Lennox Lewis, Randy Turpin, John Conteh, John H Stracey, Jim Watt, Alan Minter, not to mention Sir Henry Cooper, who on one unforgettable occasion visited a left hook on Muhammad Ali which, according to the great man, shook up his kinfolk all the way back in Africa.

Closer to Calzaghe's home, there are other disservices implicit in McGuigan's extravagant praise. Howard Winstone, who lost the end of the fingers of his right hand, was a brilliant featherweight who fought superbly against the formidably strong Vicente Saldivar, a fight that Hugh McIlvanney said so memorably had really been settled in the womb.

The Welsh heavyweight Tommy Farr's campaigning in America led him to a performance so fine and durable against the great Joe Louis that it provoked the building of beacon fires of celebration.

McGuigan's blanket assessment of Calzaghe's performance as the greatest in British fight history also laid waste the rankings of other great men of the earlier days, when they fought to live without the biannual underpinning of pay-per-view millions. Men like Jimmy Wilde, Jim Driscoll, Ted Kid Lewis and Jack Kid Berg.

Calzaghe's fellow Welshmen, Wilde, the Mighty Atom, and Peerless Jim Driscoll, for example, warranted at least a fleeting thought here on Sunday when Calzaghe, congratulated himself on concluding his career with a flourish in America that consisted, like it or not, of two victories over opponents with a combined age of 82 years, one of whom, Jones, revealing himself to be utterly shot from the third round onwards.

Driscoll also campaigned in America, where the locals were soon won over by the sweetness of his style, one in sharp contrast to the prevailing fashion there for much more overt aggression. Peerless Jim fought 571 rounds as a professional and lost four times in 77 fights. It is different strokes for different times, of course, but if part of the reason for Calzaghe's elevation is longevity and an unbeaten record in 46 fights, only two of which happened in America, what chance would anyone give him of going another 31 fights, against the toughest possible opposition, without any blemish? It would be an impractical demand on even the formidable gifts of Calzaghe. If you say the past is the past, and no longer has any relevance to the present, what then can we anticipate in the future, if not still more blurring of the verities of time?

No one can really blame Calzaghe for riding his success, nor the complaints he made about his previous exclusions before winning the BBC Sports Personality of the Year award. He was right to speak up for his hard trade and his own contribution to it, and perhaps he did that in the nick of time when we note the boiling controversies involving the current claims of such as Olympic stars Rebecca Adlington and Chris Hoy and the apparently inevitable triumph of Lewis Hamilton.

The worry is that we are now far gone in a sports culture where the headlines of today tend to obliterate the meaning of some of the greatest achievements in the history of sport, and so many of the standards they created.

None of this was any concern of Calzaghe when he emerged on a brilliant Manhattan Sunday sporting the wounds acquired when Roy Jones Jnr produced his one moment of authentic menace, a first-round knockdown which had disturbing implications for the Welshman no longer, it seemed, than it took him to clear his head, a feat comfortably accomplished by the end of the round.

He spoke of the pleasure of a man fulfilled – and also dismissed talk of a possible last fight against his most potentially challenging opponent, the 26-year-old unbeaten world light heavyweight champion Chad Dawson.

"They're talking about Dawson but that doesn't get me so excited," said Calzaghe. "He's won a couple of fights and beaten [Antonio] Tarver, a shot fighter."

Here, though, Calzaghe cast something of a shadow over the meaning of his American adventures.

Tarver will celebrate his 40th birthday in a few days' time, it is true, but then that makes him a mere two months older than Jones. It gets worse from the point of view of Joe's deification. Three years ago Tarver outpointed Jones. Six months later he blasted him away in two rounds. A few weeks ago Dawson knocked down Tarver before making him look like an irredeemably old man in a unanimous points decision.

Mere details, of course, but when you put a few of them together they make a rather different mosaic to the one produced by Barry McGuigan in the television studio. McGuigan's picture is at odds with reality, and why is it so? Why have recent judgements been so inflated? It is no mystery, of course. It comes with the requirement to sell almost every morsel of our sport and if the major victim is truth, who, these days, really cares?

The point is that if someone like Barry McGuigan, with all his achievements and available perspective, is not fastidious about the truths of his most demanding sport, from whom can we expect proper care?

Praising Joe Calzaghe, acknowledging his talent and those occasions when it was required to be fully exercised, is no hardship for anyone. But at various stages we encounter the problem of an excessive price to pay. One of them is wiping away the achievements of a man like Jim Driscoll. That, no doubt, was not Barry McGuigan's intention, but who can say it was not the effect?

You cannot say that Joe Calzaghe is the best without diminishing so many who went before him. Surely, it cannot be done.

From: Link (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/james-lawton-past-greats-unfairly-knocked-over-in-rush-to-hype-calzaghes-achievement-1009615.html)

Rafael
11-13-2008, 03:08 PM
Good stuff, thanks.

hawk5ins
11-13-2008, 03:25 PM
I guess I have a question for Mr Lawton who wrote the article criticizing McGuigan's comments.

What was it that McGuigan said that minmizes the past Greats accomplishments?

Is Barry not allowed to praise Joe's performance? How does doing so, step on the toes of others?

If Barry said something like the following: "Joe's performance tonight illustrates he's the best we've ever had in these parts", then yes, Barry has lost his gord.

But I didn't see him quoted as saying anything remotely close to that.

In fact other than this line from Lawton:

"dismaying to hear that McGuigan, back in the TV studio, had given Joe Calzaghe's defeat of Roy Jones Jnr a quite extraordinary rating."

I didn't read ANY quote from Barry.

So I guess i just don't get what he said that should be considered a slpa in the face to the past greats.

Hawk

Ron Lipton
11-13-2008, 08:56 PM
Again, this is why I enjoyed the showboating done by Calzaghe.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=gexazLr6pSY

Reply: I saw the film. The respect I have for his skills is equally mixed with nausea for the repulsive pomposity in post fight interviews which is not in the same niche with Ali's selling of tickets, and Georgous George rhetoric.

Nothing turns me off than that tactic of talking about yourself in the third person like Michael Nunn used to and Roy Jones Jr do,while being interviewed.

The "Chicken wing" my ass.

What goes around comes around.

hagler04
11-13-2008, 11:19 PM
I guess I have a question for Mr Lawton who wrote the article criticizing McGuigan's comments.

What was it that McGuigan said that minmizes the past Greats accomplishments?

Is Barry not allowed to praise Joe's performance? How does doing so, step on the toes of others?

If Barry said something like the following: "Joe's performance tonight illustrates he's the best we've ever had in these parts", then yes, Barry has lost his gord.

But I didn't see him quoted as saying anything remotely close to that.

In fact other than this line from Lawton:

"dismaying to hear that McGuigan, back in the TV studio, had given Joe Calzaghe's defeat of Roy Jones Jnr a quite extraordinary rating."

I didn't read ANY quote from Barry.

So I guess i just don't get what he said that should be considered a slpa in the face to the past greats.

Hawk


I agree Hawk . . I think the criticism of McGuigan here was ridiculous . . that writer sounds like a pompous ass frankly.

hawk5ins
11-14-2008, 08:42 AM
And we all KNOW, I'm not a big Barry Fan!

But this just seems that BECUASE Barry praised Joes' performance, the writer, whom it is pretty clear, doesn't have any love loss for Joe C, he is trashing it as though to do so tramples on hollowed ground of others.

To our bretheren from accross the pond, did anyone catch the telecast that Lawton speaks of and did anyone here anything Specific that McGuigan said that really should have produced this type of "outrage"?

I'd be very interested in what it was the he said that could be interperated as some sort of desecration of heroes gone by.

Hawk

hawk5ins
11-14-2008, 08:50 AM
Here is Lawton's PRE-Fight Article. Anyone wondering what Lawton thinks of Joe C. need look no further than this piece to get a clear picture.

By the way, please take note of the bolded comment made by Lawton. What in Flocking GOD's Name is he talking about?

Lawton a credible source? Um....Debatable.:

James Lawton: Beware the ageing warrior

Even at 39 and well past his prime, Roy Jones Jnr poses a substantial threat to Joe Calzaghe

Friday, 7 November 2008

In the meticulously planned career of Joe Calzaghe that is expected to reach a perfectly orchestrated climax at Madison Square Garden here tomorrow, only one possibility has been left to chance. However, it is a detail that can change any fighter's life. It concerns the ability of Roy Jones Jnr to renovate at least some of the talent that once made him the shooting star of the ring.

Anarchic – he was once arrested for carrying a gun through an airport – and often misunderstood away from his bailiwick of America's southern states, he had mesmerising speed and punch selection that sometimes seemed to come from another fighting planet.

They were filled with a mad certainty, those punches of the man from the Florida back country and they made nonsense of the orthodoxies of the ring.

He threw punches from no known textbook but his own wild and destructive imagination, disabling blows beyond the resources of the most concentrated defence.

At 39 that lightning cannot be reproduced and he concedes it is so with a nod and a sigh. "Hey," he says, "the years take from everybody, but sometimes, when it matters enough, you can find that a little something is left. I'm not making any big claims right now, but maybe you all, including Joe, should not forget that. I want this fight very badly, I want to show I'm still Roy Jones Jnr. No one should ever forget what Roy Jones Jnr can do."

Those who have been around Jones from the days before he seemed to lose a self-belief that, as he strutted and posed, often brought glassy-eyed terror to his opponents prior to the first bell, say that when he speaks in the third person it is a sign that he feels that once more he can produce some of that old intimidating aura.

If Calzaghe was 26 rather than 36, if it was not true that in his long and acclaimed career of 45 wins without defeat he has never been in with an opponent remotely of such pure punching ability, the apparent revival of Jones's spirit here might not carry the substantial hint of menace that it does.

It is certainly not diminished by the belief of Bernard Hopkins, beaten on a split decision by Calzaghe in Las Vegas in the spring, that the Welshman is made for Jones. Nor is Hopkins any old witness. Back in 1993, when Hopkins was considered the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world, he was not just beaten but outclassed by Jones. A few months ago in Las Vegas Hopkins knocked down Calzaghe in the first round. Disturbingly for those who see Calzaghe-Jones as the present versus the past, Hopkins is 43.

Even at this advanced age, Hopkins' own ambitions certainly remain alive after his defeat of the previously unbeaten warrior Ohioan Kelly Pavlik last month in the wake of the Calzaghe loss. The manner of his defeat by Jones, a decade and a half on, still gnaws at a proud man who believed that, in a shuffling, time-expired way, he deserved a decision over Calzaghe.

Hopkins thinks that the remnants of Jones, the last of his speed of hand and mind, can ambush the Welshman tomorrow night. He says: "Joe will suit Jones. He will not have to worry about finding him. That's when Roy's at his best, picking his counter punches."

Yet of course it is not quite so simple. Jones, grey-bearded and, his people say, more serene than at any time since those days when he swaggered into the ring as though it was his most natural habitat, certainly lost something down the years.

The theory of one boxing insider here is that the terrible consequences of his compatriot Gerald McClellan's defeat by Nigel Benn in London in 1995 may have had a deep effect. Jones was breezing through his boxing and his life then, and this week he recalled the mood of those days when he said, "I was having a good time. I was beautiful. I was more than just a fighter. I was able to make it so delightful."

Delightful in the freedom it gave him to pursue anything that pleased him. He was like one of his prized falcons. No one could touch him. He could fly beyond any challenge, any restraint. Then he saw the formidable puncher McClellan, a man with a ferocious appetite for his version of the good life, whether it was fast women or venomous fighting dogs, cast into a wheelchair and darkness after a brain operation in a London hospital.

Jones is unwilling to go into such dark areas. He prefers to say that he has been inspired both by the presidential victory of his hero Barack Obama and the stirrings within himself of an old confidence.

"Joe Calzaghe is a great fighter," says Jones, "and I'm proud to go into the ring with him, but I'm also proud of what I have done in the past and what I believe I can do in the future. If Joe thinks he's dealing with a washed-up fighter he's making a serious mistake."

Jones's claim is that so many of the old distractions have gone under the pressure of his need to win here. When he suffered crushing defeats by Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson, knockouts in the second and ninth rounds respectively in 2004, it was as though the best of him had drained away. The blows came less than a year after he had danced to historic victory over WBA world heavyweight champion John Ruiz and then, on a split decision, beaten Tarver for the WBC and IBO light-heavyweight title. Those were victories which persuaded him again that he could be a master of any situation.

For the Calzaghe camp the imperative is to believe that when Tarver and Johnson separated Jones from that certainty four years ago, they inflicted wounds that would never truly go, certainly not with the slender healing power of a victory over the shot-through fellow time-traveller Felix Trinidad.

This week Jones was asked how he compared himself today with the best of his past. "I don't know, I can't say, but that's not for me to decide. When I put my skills on display at the Garden it will be the time for you all to decide."

Joe Calzaghe can only hope that he is dealing with no more than the ghost of a sensational past. Anything more than that, and he will know that he is involved in the most hazardous fight of his unbeaten life.

Keeping up with the Jones

Roy Levesta Jones Junior

Born: 16 January, 1969, Pensacola, Florida

Height: 5ft 11inReach 74in

Record: 56 fights, 52 wins (38 by knockout)

* Won silver in the light-middleweight division at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul.

* Named 'Fighter of the Decade' in the Nineties by the Boxing Writers' Association of America.

* In March 2003 Jones beat John Ruiz to become the first former middleweight title holder to win a heavyweight title in 106 years

* Jones has released two rap albums, one as a solo artist in 2002 and one with his group – Body Head Bangerz – two years later.

Interesting? Click here to explore further

ANd one More:

Boxing: Calzaghe's last stand

Victory tonight would allow the Welshman to retire unbeaten, but may not seal his place among the greats.

.By James Lawton in New York
Saturday, 8 November 2008


Joe Calzaghe, pictured in his Newbridge gym, has been accused of fighting in his comfort zone but has crossed the Atlantic to meet legend Roy Jones Jnr at Madison Square Garden in New York

You could call it the Street of Champions, Eighth Avenue running past Madison Square Garden, where Muhammad Ali once stopped the traffic while taking a morning stroll in pale autumn sunshine.


A shoeshine boy and workers from the garment industry who came down from their sewing machines clustered around the great man and, as ever, he rejoiced in their attention. Joe Calzaghe has also been gratified this week by cries of "Hi Joe", "You're the champ", while reporting for light training at the Kingsway Gym a few blocks away off Broadway. Indeed, even though the shouts of recognition have been sporadic, he still dug down for a word rare on the lips of a still working pugilist when it came to describing how it felt to be in the presence of the greatest ghost of the ring on such hallowed sidewalks and to be recognised, however briefly and casually, as one of his number.

"It's just surreal," said the 36-year-old Welshman who, after 45 winning fights, is performing only for the second time on the side of the Atlantic which invariably defines the status of a champion. With considerable honesty, Calzaghe is addressing the pressure upon him here tonight in what he says, with less than towering conviction will be his last fight, against the ageing but perhaps still dangerous superstar Roy Jones Jr.

He understands that when Ali brought Eighth Avenue to a standstill and Sugar Ray Robinson, in his shiny suit and pomaded hair and pink Cadillac, was cheered all the way back up to Harlem after avenging his defeat by Britain's Randolph Turpin, they had won all their great battles both home and away.

Calzaghe, but for his American debut in Las Vegas earlier this year and an occasional foray against milk-and-water opposition in Scandinavia, made Britain, and principally Wales, his fortress. Given all his natural talent, and the warm reaction by Americans to his commitment to relentless attack, clearly he wonders now how much more triumphant would be his own passage down the streets of Manhattan if he too could wear the battle ribbons won on foreign soil boasted by Ali, the conqueror of Kinshasa and Manila, and some of his rivals for the status of Britain's best post-war fighter.

Certainly he did a little soul-bearing under the force of inquisition by some of the American fight crowd this week. In the basement of BB King's Blues Bar off Times Square he reacted sharply to one suggestion that in the past he might only have been driven out of his comfort zone of a British – and ideally, Welsh – ring, at gunpoint. There was, too, the additional charge of Jones's long-time trainer Alton Merkerson that back when his fighter was the acknowledged pound-for-pound ruler of boxing, they could not lure a new world champion of obvious ability from the Valleys. "Of course," said Merkerson, "if they had fought then, there wouldn't have been the kind of money there is now. Roy was willing, but Joe wouldn't come over here to fight him."

Calzaghe said, with more than a little fire in his eyes, "They accused me of hiding behind my belts, but believe me I wasn't. I was struggling along, fighting in small arenas and getting no respect. It took years, until the Jeff Lacy fight in 2006 before I was able to do it. For years I was fighting guys you never heard of with names you couldn't spell, even fighters I never saw a tape of. And all the time I wanted to be in this type of situation, fighting big names – and now I have it at the end of my career, believe me, I'm as hungry as ever I've been, maybe even hungrier. I want to make a great fight, a great performance here on Saturday night." Still, Calzaghe cannot quite outrun the shadows that almost without exception hover over every version of boxing truth. As he speaks of old frustration, it is, for example, impossible to forget his testy response to a question posed on the eve of his WBC world super-middleweight title defence against one of the halt and the lame, the obscure Will McIntyre on the undercard of Mike Tyson's formal bashing of the Danish Mr Pastry, Brian Nielsen, in Copenhagen seven years ago.

With belated mercy, the referee stopped Calzaghe's fight 45 seconds into the fourth round. Calzaghe had been asked, ironically in the light of Merkerson's contention this week, if he despaired of the fact that even a megatalent like Jones insisted on fighting tourists from the boxing graveyard rather than a serious opponent like himself. "Boxing is a business," Calzaghe snapped, "and a fighter like Jones has earned the right to pick his fights. If I was in his position, I would probably do the same."

Yet when the money is earned, and the career has run out along finely calculated lines, what does it leave apart from financial security for the rest of your life? In Calzaghe's case plainly he has been left with a haunting desire to make another kind of deposit to the bank vault. It is a major topping up of the glory account.

Many believe that if he fulfils his best hopes against Jones tonight, if he avoids the shocking ambush which cannot be discounted if the moody, egocentric 39-year-old virtuoso from Florida finds a few strands of his old destructive genius to throw outrageous punches with impeccable timing, he will have got at least some of his wish for a higher status among the great names of the post-war British ring. Some even argue that it would make him the best of all.

Yet it is surely no disrespect to Calzaghe's formidable ability, and heart, and the late flowering of his ability against Denmark's Mikkel Kessler, a fine upright battler who provided a far more significant examination than the absurdly lauded Lacy, to say that such a historic elevation is, frankly, an insult to compatriots who were ready, from the outset, to campaign in the most difficult places. Among the resentful, here and in the boxing heavens, would surely and legitimately be such men as Kenny Buchanan, Lennox Lewis, Randy Turpin, Barry McGuigan – the fighting Irishman who acquired a British passport to win the domestic title before becoming an authentic world featherweight champion in demanding company – John H Stracey and Jim Watt, who did his unspectacular but deeply professional work against some superb opponents, yielding his world title, over 15 rounds, only to the brilliantly clean-hitting Nicaraguan Alexis Arguello. There is also the case for the tempestuous but beautifully and seriously talented world light-heavyweight champion John Conteh.

Calzaghe loyalists can cite a run of consecutive world title defences rivalled only by the immortal Joe Louis, but then it is also true that the Brown Bomber was at one point accused of setting up one of the old game's least appetising institutions, the Bum of the Month club.

By his own admission, many of Calzaghe's opponents would have had no fear of being blackballed from such a place. Yet if this indeed is the final act of Calzaghe's play – and it has to be reported that there is a persistent belief here that in fact, win or lose, he will make one last statement in a ring back home at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff – it is no hardship acknowledging both the scale of his talent and his contribution to British boxing. His place is undoubtedly a high one even if it lacks the underpinning of great fights and a roll call of the best of opposition through his long career. Jones's trainer was generous enough, certainly, when discussing tactical possibilities on the eve of the fight. Inevitably, there was a question about the frequently less than classic quality of Calzaghe's punching. "Yes, it's true," said Merkerson, "he does slap a lot. But then let's look at his record? Thirty-two opponents have been 'slapped down'. That makes Joe a hell of a slapper." It's also true that his achievements have come under the tutelage of his father Enzo, a temperamentally volatile man whose youth was spent making music rather than ring violence, and who never stepped through the ropes with the intention of fighting.

It is reasonable to speculate that under the guidance of an Eddie Futch or, back home, Terry Lawless, Calzaghe might have made more technical progress beyond the formidable reservoir of his natural talent and created in himself – who knows? – more insistence that he should fight opponents who would have tested much more deeply those gifts he displayed the moment he stepped into the bedraggled little gym in Newbridge. Not much of this, inevitably, is registering on the pre-fight radar screen, certainly not that one being monitored by Calzaghe Snr. He says that his son has superb talent and an unmatchable fighting heart, and that a combination of these qualities will conquer both Roy Jones Jr and the last doubt that he is a fighter of the ages. On even the roughest recent form guide, the Calzaghe camp is right to be confident. Joe Calzaghe should win, should earn the chance to leave the professional ring with an unblemished record.

Yet there have to be a couple of nags. One is the stirring of belief in the once rampant Roy Jones. The other is the scarcity of his opponent's experience of such an eruption from someone of the highest quality – and in a still dangerously alien place.

James Lawton's five best post-war British boxers

*1. Kenny Buchanan

He fought, in his upright style, and won in the hardest places with a brave and brilliant application. When he lost in Madison Square Garden it was to arguably the greatest lightweight of all time, Roberto Duran who named him unhesitatingly as his greatest lightweight opponent.

*2. Lennox Lewis

Became Britain's first undisputed world champion in a century when he beat Evander Holyfield. A serious fighting man who triumphed over the terrible fault line of a vulnerable chin, which required him to avenge, comprehensively, his only two professional defeats, to Oliver McCall and Hasim Rachman

*3. Randolph Turpin

He beat the nonpareil Sugar Ray Robinson in London and then, in the rematch in New York, he fought so strongly that the man who some believe to be the greatest fighter of all was required to produce the best of his extraordinary talent to rescue the fight in the 11th.

*4. Barry McGuigan

The Clones Cyclone held the world featherweight title only briefly but he filled the ring with his passion and intensity. When he lost his title against Texan Steve Cruz he was overcome by the desert heat of a Las Vegas afternoon and was taken to hospital suffering from dehydration.

*5. Joe Calzaghe

The only unbeaten candidate for the top position, the Welshman has always been a fighter of heart-warming aggression and style. But unblemished records can be deceptive, and a higher position for him would have to draw a veil over the long years of unchallenging competition.

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Paulie W
11-14-2008, 09:30 AM
I saw the broadcast. I cant exactly recall Barry's words - it was 6 in the morning by the time the fight was finished and I'd sat through the joys of a frankly apalling undercard - but there was a not unfamiliar lack of historical perspective in the reporting both before and after the fight of which Barry was a part.

Lawton does seem to have a pretty negative view of Calzaghe and he is a football (soccer) writer first and foremost so I'm not surprised at his several mistakes. I do think though that he is responding in part to an even less knowledgeable body in the UK press that has Cal and Hatton 1 and 2 in the greatest Brisish fighters list! I think his frustration here is that Barry, who does know what he's talking about as a rule, should essentially feed this ignorance.

hawk5ins
11-14-2008, 09:41 AM
if Lawton had cited specific lines as opposed to the broad generalization.

Also considering his prefight views on this, it doesn't sound as to much of a stretch that ANY amount of praise given to Joe on this win was going to be met with Criticism by Lawton.

Hawk

diggity
11-14-2008, 04:07 PM
Sakio Bika destroyed Manfredo the other night.
Lacy could barely get by Manfredo.
JC was in no trouble whatsoever with Bika but to Bika's credit he seems to be a bit better than he was then, at least more confident.

JC's looking better all the time. ;)

Crold1
11-14-2008, 11:27 PM
Barry McGuigan was not better than Joe. Sorry.

Rafael
11-14-2008, 11:57 PM
More than slamming Calzaghe, I think the main goal of the article is to slam McGuigan for his ridiculously biased and over-the-top assessment of the fight.

hawk5ins
11-15-2008, 08:28 AM
Not knowing the specifics of what McGuigan said, you may be correct in this.

But at the same time, it seems Lawton's agenda was pretty clear here: Calzaghe deserves no credit considering Jones is a spent fighter.

On it's face value, I don't have too much of an issue with that, as I have said all along, Calzaghe's value and worth should be judged on his work prior to this bout.

However praise for Joe's performance should not be disallowed. Especially if in a pre-fight article, Lawton suggest Joe better be prepared. Lawton to me sounds like he was riding both sides of the fence here...sort of.

He was pratically praying that Jones would turn back the clock and win this fight and out of the other side, telling everyone that would listen, that a victory over Jones means nothing.

That was his theme and mantra all along. And hopping on McGuigan for his comments about the fight, seemed to me, Lawton's spring board to repeat this.

Again, I would love specifics on what exactly Barry said that was so insulting to past greats.

And Cliff, I agree 100% with you re Cal being a better fighter than Barry. Heart warming story. Entertaining to watch. Some decent comp. And a Nice brief reign. But c'mon.

Lawton did give his top five post WWII British fighterand had Cal #5, but earlier in his article he also suggested that Stracey, Watt and Conteh had arguements in being ahead of Joe.

I don't see that suggestion as not coming accross as too anti Calzaghe either.

I realize you want to temper the over reaction of those who may not know better, but going overboard the other way, isn't any better.

Hawk

Crold1
11-15-2008, 12:38 PM
I praise the Roy win as what it was: a world class fighter doing the obvious. If he'd struggled in any serious way (and a quick knockdown isn't a struggle) than that would have taken some shine off Joe. However, he ran a fighter he should have. Good enough. No need to pretend it's even close to one of Joe's best wins. Eubank was superior, in the ring if not name, because at least he still had some reall game, coming off of wars with Collins and headed still to wars with Thompson at Cruiser.

It's funny; a blog at the new Ring website says Joe never beat a significant fighter in his prime without mentioning Kessler at all which I find hilarious. What exactly was that win? Tito Trinidad is held up as great (rightly) with a career best win against Vargas; hell, Vargas might be the best win of Oscar's career too. Well, Joe Vargas'd Lacy and now Jeff was just some overrated bum and Kessler was every bit as accomplished as Vargas. It really strikes me as perceptions being set and new reality not catching up yet.

Anyone who says Joe isn't the greatest Brit ever will have some great fighters to make case, but he doesn't have to be for him to have had an All-Time Great career. I think the way he's pulled it together in the end is remarkable given his age and a style that never saved him from rough nights.

On another note, I'm about sick of hyperbole like the Hopkins line note above. Here's another note I wrote this week in my main column:

http://www.boxingscene.com/?m=show&id=16936

Saving Impressionable Minds From B.S.

It never ceases to amaze me how much history can change with time. Case in point could be found last week in multiple articles hyping/reporting on the lead-in to Joe Calzaghe-Roy Jones. Numerous writers repeated that Roy Jones knocked off a James Toney who in 1994 was the best fighter in the world pound-for-pound.

Um, no, not quite.

There was this other guy running around making guys miss, making them pay, defending the lineal World Welterweight championship after unifying the Lightweight division. Let me see, former Olympian, name is on the tip of my tongue…yeah, not really. This one is easy.

Pernell Whitaker.

Whitaker was actually still enjoying his move to universal acclaim after making a fool out of previous consensus choice Julio Cesar Chavez in 1993. In October 1994, just six weeks before Jones-Toney, Whitaker became one of the last fighters to grace the cover of Sports Illustrated with a headline reading, “The Best.” It honored a masterful rematch victory over the excellent Buddy McGirt and his widely accepted place at the time as Boxing’s overall best.

That is not to say Toney wasn’t catching Whitaker at the time, or didn’t have his backers, but he wasn’t there yet, tossing in uneven performances that played down to his opposition on occasion without even factoring Toney’s 1992 ‘win’ over Dave Tiberi.

Whitaker of course was never caught by Toney and held off Jones for complete recognition as best in the world until a controversial win against Wilfredo Rivera in 1996 marked the beginning of Whitaker’s slide. After all, Jones couldn’t have passed him in 1995. Whitaker was winning a fourth title in a fourth division that year against Julio Cesar Vaquez; Jones was having perhaps the most egregiously matched year of his career against Antoine Byrd, Vinny Pazienza and Tony Thornton.

Seriously.

I don’t know if it became okay to just pretend Whitaker wasn’t there back then, if some folks are just unconsciously repeating a trope they’ve picked up without thinking, or if some just don’t know better. Whatever it is, it bears correction.

Glad to help.

hawk5ins
11-15-2008, 02:56 PM
Someone needs to remind the RIng that in the preview for the Joe and Jeff fight, the editors of Boxing 2006, RIng's sister publication, picked Lacy to prevail via 10th round KO and the Ring itself in their April 2006 issue, picked Lacy to drop Joe 3 times in the 11th round to force a stoppage.

Hey we all get picks WRONG.

But then don't go about dismissing the "W" for Cal by stating Lacy was never that good to begin with.

SOMEONE at the RIng and KO and Boxing 2006, must have thought Lacy was bringing something the the table!

Hawk

Crold1
11-15-2008, 03:14 PM
Lacy has just obliterated Reid, a fighter who'd never been run over ever. Hell, I thought Lacy was catching Calzaghe at a point where Cal was too old to prove his stuff.

TDKO
11-15-2008, 03:22 PM
JC made it look so easy, the way he completely shut down Lacy and never let him in the fight, made everyone think that Lacy was nowhere as formidable as advertised, I remember watching the Reid fight, thinking Lacy can step it up against someone who is not intimidated and will fight back.
(I believe one of Lacy's early opponents quit before the fight after Lacy took his shirt off)

Crold1
11-15-2008, 03:23 PM
That was his pro debut.

hawk5ins
11-15-2008, 03:43 PM
This "point" about Toney being THE best in the game when he faced Jones.......Well those who repeat this sillyness, MIGHT have you on a "SLIGHT" technicality.

A WEAK one. And A flawed one. And Wholly inconsistant. And Might I add.....WRONG to boot.

Here we go:

Following James Toney's KO win over Prince Charles Williams, in Late July 1994, KO magazine, the RIng's sister publication, decided to place Toney at Number 1 Pound for Pound for the period ending August 14, 1994.

Toney did NOT replace Whitaker at the top of the Ring rankings, nor was Pete replaced in Boxing Illustrated's LB rankings.

When Jones Beat Toney in Nov of 1994, Pernell Whitaker was moved BACK to the Number 1 spot, Jones moved to #2 and Toney dropped to #6.

So even if one buys into Toney being the Pound for Pound King (recognized by 1 of 3 major Boxing Mags, 1 of 4 if you add S.I.) when Jones faced him. Jones did not REPLACE him atop the Pound rankings as every major publication recognized Pernell as Tops.

In fact, Whitaker RETAINED that spot atop the POUND ranking until April of 1996 when Pete struggled quite a bit with Wilfredo Rivera in their first fight.

So what this suggestion of Toney being the best pound for pound on the planet when Jones faced him means, is that when Jones beat him, it took another 17 mos before that recognition as best pound for pound was handed to Jones.

The ONLY thing anyone could be basing Toney being number 1 in the game on is the KO Mag Ranking.

He held that ranking as best in the world for 3 mos.

And the mag's sister Publication and lets be honest, more recognizable name, the RING, STILL had Pete atop the rankings in this mythical world. And they kept him in that spot for another 17 MONTHS, following Jones's win over Toney as well.

There you have the nonsense of that argument spelled out in detail.

Hope that slams the door on this "point".

Hawk

apollack
11-15-2008, 11:34 PM
Wow, I am watching the replay, and am very impressed with Joe's speed and reactions. He has really beautiful ring generalship. He keeps such a wonderful pace. I can't believe he's actually outclowning Jones.

apollack
11-15-2008, 11:37 PM
Interestingly enough, the knockdown was from the inside of Roy's right forearm.

Kurant
11-16-2008, 12:00 AM
I'm a big fan of Jones. Have seen a couple of his fights in Vegas when I was stationed at Nellis, watched his career probably closer then any other fighter.

I was in Fairbanks, AK last weekend, so I didn't get to see the fight. But after seeing the fight tonight, it's time to go. He's got nothing left - sad as it may be.

apollack
11-16-2008, 12:02 AM
He still has the single very fast shot, but he simply cannot keep a sustained pace. He sharpshoots with a quick punch, then goes into a lengthy shell of rest. That cannot work against a top guy like Calzaghe who can keep up a nonstop output. That's why Glen Johnson got him too.

Husker
11-16-2008, 12:07 AM
Hey, Adam, aren't you supposed to be in another thread right now or did Taylor-Lacy not start yet.

Just curious and feel free to tell me to stfu if I'm wrong:) :)

apollack
11-16-2008, 12:09 AM
Hasn't started yet. They are showing the Jones replay first. Hence my thoughts on this thread.

apollack
11-16-2008, 12:11 AM
Joe Calzaghe deserves serious respect. This guy can outbox or outslug anyone.

ShawnTheBleeder
11-16-2008, 12:17 AM
Watched the last couple of rounds again on replay. My favorite part is Jim Lampley whining about Calzaghe showboating against a fighter who, in his prime, caused Lamps to cream his jeans with his showboating over and embarrassing his opponents.

apollack
11-16-2008, 12:20 AM
Joe's showboating was definitely about showing Roy up for years of Roy doing all that to others. Joe was not about to allow Roy to talk trash and pose and get away with it. So he did it back and did it better. Talk about comeuppance.

Husker
11-16-2008, 12:22 AM
He's absolutely tireless but his slapping bothers me. I know he's got serious hand issues but still. His performance against Kessler was eye-opening to me because he simply diffused the Dane by turning it up another notch after a close 1st half.

The Jones fight? Well, he did what he should've. Maybe I'm a cynic but thats the best I can offer- Jones is shot and it's only because Tito was more shot that we even got treated with Cal-RJ.

diggity
11-16-2008, 01:10 PM
I watched the fight again for some reason but this time around I notcied a guy in round 10 by the left corner of the ring a few rows back in plain HD sight, nodding off for the next few rounds. He probably started earlier but that said it all.

I was still appalled how RJJ refused to throw shots when JC's head was in plain sight for so many periods of time.
Besides being shot the only other thing you can take away from that was RJJ flat out feared JC.
It was really embarrassing to watch.

Ron Lipton
11-16-2008, 03:15 PM
Joe's showboating was definitely about showing Roy up for years of Roy doing all that to others. Joe was not about to allow Roy to talk trash and pose and get away with it. So he did it back and did it better. Talk about comeuppance.

Amen

robertk
11-17-2008, 06:10 AM
I didn't catch it live, but caught the replay. I thought the ring doctor was very very kind to Jones. I can't think of too many other bouts where the guy with the bad cut is not inspected immediately when they return to the corner. And then the doctor scrutinizes everything during those 60 seconds and often times they eat up 10-15 seconds looking at it. but they are there in that corner as soon as the fighter gets there. But not this ring doctor.

So how come this guy waits around until they've worked on it between rounds and then inspects the cut? There was a delay starting a few rounds while this guy is looking & I can't fathom his timing whatsoever. I can't think of other examples of the ring doctors evaluating things in the same manner.

sr71ko
11-18-2008, 08:46 PM
I give Calzaghe credit for his decisive victory over a shot Roy Jones jr., but I am troubled on how easy he seems to go down whether it's a clean right hand from B-Hop or a punch and or wrist from RJJ. Calzaghe is a skilled warrior and have to be given credit, yet would Calzaghe have beaten a 1998 Roy Jones or a prime Roy Jones jr.? Roy has not been the same since he burned of the 25-30 lbs. of muscle since beating John Ruiz at heavyweight. Also, Roy is lucky....this fight should have been stopped because of cut over his eye. I have seen lesser cuts cause fights to be stopped.

diggity
11-18-2008, 11:43 PM
It was a forearm to the bridge of the nose, not a punch.