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Paulie W
06-19-2009, 05:49 AM
Sure I'm missing someone obvious here and not sure about the order after the first 3:

1. Benny Lynch
2. Ken Buchanan
3. Jackie Patterson
4. Walter McGowan
5. Bert Gilroy
6. Tancy Lee
7. Jim Watt
8. Johnny Hill
9. Colin Calderwood
10. Scott Harrison

jim glen
06-19-2009, 06:45 AM
Peter Keenan and a little not to well known bantam, European Champ Dundee's Jim Brady. Milligan, McCormack, Jake Kilrain WW, Dan McGoldrick and the Black Scotch HW - can't remember his name, was it Tommy Martin?

Paulie W
06-19-2009, 06:50 AM
Good call on Keenan; should definitely be in there ahead of Harrison and Calderwood.

jim glen
06-19-2009, 07:23 AM
God almost forgot Elky Clarke flyweight, Nat Fleischer had him listed among the Top 10 greatest Fly's of all-time right up to the late 1960s.

El Gato
06-19-2009, 03:10 PM
I'll take Buchanan over Lynch, who I consider a bit overrated.

jim glen
07-16-2009, 11:24 AM
nothing overated bout Benny Lynch, some people claimed, and some still do, that he was better than Jimmy Wilde!

here he is 'annihilating' the great little Jackie Brown, himself a great fighter and stablemate of McAvoy... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj2X6-xOMVo&feature=related

remember Britain 'ruled' the ring for flyweights in those days and lower weights in general and proud I am to say it, the Scots were both FEARED & Fearless... Benny was the Boy!

Irishlad69
08-11-2009, 07:54 AM
I'll take Buchanan over Lynch, who I consider a bit overrated.
If anything, Lynch is underrated. If you watch films of him fight you will see the perfect boxer-puncher and in my opinion looks better than any great of the thirties, and that includes ross, mclarnin, canzoneri, or loughran.

Surf-Bat
08-21-2009, 02:10 AM
I agree that Lynch is one of the most impressive fighters to watch on film from that era. Just a master. Many greats from that time have to be watched closely or repeatedly to spot their genius and appreciate it. Not so with Lynch. A wonderful little battler.

jim glen
08-22-2009, 04:30 AM
I would rate them something like this:

Achievements.

1. Benny Lynch
2. Ken Buchanan
3. Jackie Patterson
4. Walter McGowan
5. Elky Clark
6. Peter Keenan
7. Tommy Milligan
8. Tancy Lee
9. Bert Gilroy
10. Jim Brady
11. Chic Calderwood
11. Jim Watt
12. Johnny Hill
13. Cowboy McCormack
14. Jake Kilrain
15. Dan McGoldrick
16. Ken Shaw

p4p, head to head, who's actually better than who...

1. Benny Lynch
2. Bert Gilroy
3. Peter Keenan
4. Tommy Milligan
5. Elky Clark
6. Jim Brady
7. Ken Buchanan
8. Jake Kilrain
9. Jackie Paterson
10. Walter McGowan


I could place Clark & Paterson in the reverse, but I don't like to argue with Fleischer's evaluation of Clark. I think Paterson's era was tougher... Chic Calderwood & McCormack sit in 10th spot with McGowan!

lists are not easy and I always fear there is one/some forgotten.

jim glen
09-06-2009, 07:23 AM
Alex Lafferty, top draw and excellent fighter, see what I mean, always, always fighters get overlooked or forgotten!

gregbeyer
09-07-2009, 12:02 PM
jim,

thanx for the youtube post.... my god i lost count of the knock downs. probably because i was wondering why there was a second round.

lynch was a free swinging socker to be sure.

from what i saw buchanan was the more technical of the two but if ken could have hit as hard as that.... duran might be an historical footnote.

greg

GPater11093
09-27-2009, 11:11 AM
Lynch was a master boxer-puncher but because of his young death and amazing skills i feel his achievements are slightly overrated.

Buchanan became the Undisputed World Champion with a win over the Great Ismael Laguna (whom he beat in a rematch) he then beat top contender Navarro. Before losing the all time great Roberto Duran. He then has some good wins over top contenders most notably future World Champion Jim Watt and past it old fogey Carlos Ortiz.

Lynch lacks the great names on his resume IMO. Although he did have good wins over Brown and Paterson. He lacked that real defining win that Buchanan had over Laguna.

jim glen
10-06-2009, 06:02 AM
Bert Gilroy's Scrapbook on disc, can print out at 12" X 18" available on Ebay - 72 pages with over 300 reports, pictures, ratings and so on. An absolutely beautiful set of documents, a must for Fans and Collectors a like!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320431134033

hawk5ins
10-06-2009, 09:12 AM
Best of a Nation series:

The All time Top 10 of Scotland (by Brian Doogan)

1-Benny Lynch
2-Ken Buchanan
3-Jackie Patterson
4-Walter McGowan
5-Johnny Hill
6-Peter Keenan
7-James Hall
8-Tancy Lee
9-Tommy Milligan
10-Jim Watt

Hawk

jim glen
10-06-2009, 11:08 AM
Hi hawk, all the Scots lists are usually about the same, who is Brian Doogan?

James Hall(?), the only James Hall I know of was Jim Hall, he fought in the 30s, held the Scottish L-HW title briefly and his run at top tier was short by comparison - good fighter though. I have a picture of him and Bert training together.

This once again is an achievement based list and Johnny Hill makes it for that reason - he won a world title at a Jr weight which though held by some good fighters was supper seeded by the main titles. Johnny Hills career was also short by comparison, mind you Johnny died some how, I can't remember how and when!

Jim Hall and Johnny Hill wouldn't make my list, rather much better fighters win the day out... this fellow doesn't even mention Elky Clark who for quite a few years, quite a few makes ALL-TIME Flyweight lists... Alex Lafferty, Jim Brady and of course Bert Gilroy. Keep in mind Hawk, Scotland was/is rife with sectarianism, especially back then, No credit to Cathiolics, repeat NONE - second rate citizens.

and I'll tell you this for fact, IF Benny Lynch never held major titles, he would have been written off as "a good But Not Great fighter, who would rather drink than ply his trade!!!"

Scotland is sick that way(more so past, but still alive in present Scotland too), and ALL the TOP jobs, position's and personallities were Protestants.

Ask some Scots about this, there are even a few on the board, Shameful & Terrible place it was for that... P.S Bert Gilroy was ALL But forgotten 10-15 years after his retirement and never made many list of recognition, "mostly through ignorance", the Malice took place during his own time!

hawk5ins
10-06-2009, 02:10 PM
Whose record on BOXREC is woefully incomplete (and Boxrec acknowledges this as well).

He Won the Euro Lightweight title from Ernie Rice in 22' and lost it to Harry Mason (after drawing with him following the win over Rice) in 23'.

Know very little about him other than Doogan's (has been a Ring Correspondant in Britian for close to 20 years now) piece and what I perused on Boxrec.

As an aside, like a few others here, I too would place Buch at the top of the Scottish heap here.

Hawk

jim glen
10-06-2009, 02:33 PM
interesting!

back to Bert Gilroy's Scrapbook now available... see above link!

Surf-Bat
10-06-2009, 03:27 PM
who is Brian Doogan?
!

He's the guy who proclaimed Joe Calzaghe to be "perhaps one of the top 2 or 3 greatest British fighters of all time".

Try and digest that one for awhile :confused:

Surf-Bat
10-06-2009, 03:29 PM
Hi hawk, all the Scots lists are usually about the same, who is Brian Doogan?

James Hall(?), the only James Hall I know of was Jim Hall, he fought in the 30s, held the Scottish L-HW title briefly and his run at top tier was short by comparison - good fighter though. I have a picture of him and Bert training together.

This once again is an achievement based list and Johnny Hill makes it for that reason - he won a world title at a Jr weight which though held by some good fighters was supper seeded by the main titles. Johnny Hills career was also short by comparison, mind you Johnny died some how, I can't remember how and when!

Jim Hall and Johnny Hill wouldn't make my list, rather much better fighters win the day out... this fellow doesn't even mention Elky Clark who for quite a few years, quite a few makes ALL-TIME Flyweight lists... Alex Lafferty, Jim Brady and of course Bert Gilroy. Keep in mind Hawk, Scotland was/is rife with sectarianism, especially back then, No credit to Cathiolics, repeat NONE - second rate citizens.

and I'll tell you this for fact, IF Benny Lynch never held major titles, he would have been written off as "a good But Not Great fighter, who would rather drink than ply his trade!!!"

Scotland is sick that way(more so past, but still alive in present Scotland too), and ALL the TOP jobs, position's and personallities were Protestants.

Ask some Scots about this, there are even a few on the board, Shameful & Terrible place it was for that... P.S Bert Gilroy was ALL But forgotten 10-15 years after his retirement and never made many list of recognition, "mostly through ignorance", the Malice took place during his own time!

Interesting. I've been to Northern Ireland, where sectarianism is rampant(and ugly), but didn't know it bled over into Scotland. A shame.

PeteLeo
10-07-2009, 01:00 AM
Hoary old joke (not meant to offend -- I just think it's funny);

An American visiting Belfast became separated from his tour group in a maze of side-streets and was unable to locate the guide before the setting of the sun. Nervous due to sectarian strife in the city, the tourist carefully inched along with his back pressed against a row of unlit stone residences until he came to a dark intersection without street signs. Knowing he couldn't stay there all night, the man took a deep breath and marched into the converging streets.

Halfway across, he froze when a low-pitched, slightly melodic, but thoroughly serious voice whispered from the shadows, "Halt there, lad. Who be ye?"

"Just a tourist from America," the man answered through dry lips. "Only a tourist."

"Be ye Cat'lic or be ye Protestant?" the voice demanded with a quietness that was more frightening than shouting.

"Neither," the American replied. "I'm an atheist!"

There followed a brief pause, its silence broken only by the moaning breeze, before the voice continued, "Aye . . . but be ye Cat'lic atheist or be ye Protestant atheist?"

I actually heard that one on TV years ago. Political correctness would never allow such to soil our delicate ears today. PeteLeo.

hawk5ins
10-07-2009, 07:16 AM
Re Doogan and his view of Calzaghe...........This is why I have trouble "reading" a guy like this when out of one side, he completely goes overboard with a modern fighter who seemingly has not proven his worth to recieve such accolades. And then out of the other side, gives props to a fighter from the 20's, who, lets be honest here, not many of us have ever heard of and in essence have NO idea about his worth.

I've read enough by him to hold the opinion that he has an idea about what he's talking about and does have some historical knowledge and background in the sport. But at the same time, I don't necessarily agree with everything he says.

Some pieces obviously are more glaring than others.

Hawk

Surf-Bat
10-07-2009, 04:15 PM
Re Doogan and his view of Calzaghe...........This is why I have trouble "reading" a guy like this when out of one side, he completely goes overboard with a modern fighter who seemingly has not proven his worth to recieve such accolades. And then out of the other side, gives props to a fighter from the 20's, who, lets be honest here, not many of us have ever heard of and in essence have NO idea about his worth.

I've read enough by him to hold the opinion that he has an idea about what he's talking about and does have some historical knowledge and background in the sport. But at the same time, I don't necessarily agree with everything he says.

Some pieces obviously are more glaring than others.

Hawk

This is what blows me away about it as well. Doogan KNOWS BETTER! He does, as you point out, have some knowledge of the history of the sport and especially the history of it in Britain. So for him to allow himself to get caught up in the orgy of Calzaghe praise and run roughshod over history by making such absurd proclamations...well, it definitely puzzles.

Then again, the American media of a decade ago and it's "Roy Jones is the greatest fighter of all-time" nonsense are equally guilty. Even MORE guilty, now that I think about it.

hawk5ins
10-07-2009, 04:37 PM
Herb Goldman made that call on Roy Jones.

He has since backed off of that, but at the time, I was a ball of confusion.

"I KNOW Herb knows more about this sport than I ever will! But how the HELL can he make such a call?!?!?!"

In the same list I'm referencing, He had Oscar #11.

It was BAFFLING.

I've seen enough OUTRAGEOUS lists and calls such as this and call on head to head matchups, by experts who I KNOW, know better (Bert Sugar in 2000 saying ONLY Conn and Charles at 175 would have been able to beat Jones. Agian, a stance he has since backed off of.), that I frequently just give these guys passes and ASSUME, they will "come around" after thinking about such craziness, after a while.

Usually they do.

Hawk

jim glen
10-07-2009, 05:17 PM
It's the modern young mind and way of doing things - even though academically ( boxing academics ), they know that "the greatest" in Boxing is an Achievement based list, they always and I mean always fall into the trap (forgeting the academics) that all this suddenly means so & so BEATS or is BETTER than so & so. Head to head and P4P suddenly isn't part of the "reality equation".

Just try having serious forum over at Boxrec and especially among the British(not literally all of them, but bloody well most) posters and all sense is lost...

It's ALL about CompuBox and Stats and percentage ratio's and PPV's and gates and names hanging on to fight each other, rather than proper Contention and playing to the modern "ill informed" Sport fan and Shorts stupid "homie punk shorts and image... IT is about SHORTS, "in short it's _UCKED!!!

It's a waste of time and the real danger is to the History of Boxing and the GREAT fighters who suffer and lose out because of it!

I hope theres a Boxing Heaven with REAL Champs and Contenders in their true order... see you at Ring side!

hawk5ins
10-07-2009, 06:20 PM
I can understand.

But those who SHOULD know better, like a Doogan and even MORE dissapointing, Goldman and Sugar and others who at times over-react to certain fighters (and then ultimately concede said over-reaction and then retract such comments), don't fall into the "young minds" category.

It's guys like this, who REALLY perplex me.

Hawk

Irishlad69
10-08-2009, 03:07 PM
Lynch was a master boxer-puncher but because of his young death and amazing skills i feel his achievements are slightly overrated.

Buchanan became the Undisputed World Champion with a win over the Great Ismael Laguna (whom he beat in a rematch) he then beat top contender Navarro. Before losing the all time great Roberto Duran. He then has some good wins over top contenders most notably future World Champion Jim Watt and past it old fogey Carlos Ortiz.

Lynch lacks the great names on his resume IMO. Although he did have good wins over Brown and Paterson. He lacked that real defining win that Buchanan had over Laguna.
Lynch never fought paterson. He fought Peter kane.

GPater11093
10-09-2009, 04:48 PM
Lynch never fought paterson. He fought Peter kane.

thanks for correcting me i always get them 2 mixed up

dongee
04-22-2011, 04:38 PM
Hawk's ranking of Johnny Hill is much better than a couple of others that appear here. Hill was recognized in some quarters as the first Scottish world champioin. He died suddenly (1928)while training for a bout that would have unified the flyweight title for a while , at least.

hn