How about the fact that with all the criticism of Wlad's stamina he proved that after 12 rounds he still had one punch KO power ... not bad.
How about the fact that with all the criticism of Wlad's stamina he proved that after 12 rounds he still had one punch KO power ... not bad.
Klit are among the worst Heavweight champs ever. THere were definitely a solid number that would rank below them in an all time rankings of the big boy division.
And as much criticism that I give them and the division, I hope it's understood that I would PREFER it to be different.
THe Klit Bros come in in marvelous shape and LOOK like what a professional Athlete should look like when representing his sport. SO they both get high marks from me on that.
But I have seen both in situations where neither shined and both folded either willingly or based on their inability to perservere. From that aspect they get low marks from me.
And then you have the REST of the division. It is an absolute barren wasteland of garbage. If it were simply a case of Very good champs and a good division in which they simply were superior to their comp, I would give them the credit for that being the case.
But it isn't. Based on what we have seen with these two agianst better comp and them not coming up big, we HAVE a right to criticize them. ANd now that the rest of the division is simply atrocious, it is IMPOSSIBLE to guage just how good they actually are when they are dominating refuse.
Larry Holmes did have alot of inferior challengers to his crown. Evangelista, Rodriguez, Zanon, Frank were NOT good. Ali had similar challengers in Coopman, London, Dunn, and Evangelista as well. ANd Louis of course had the bum of the month club in which Roper, and Paycheck, and Burman and a John Henry Lewis who was in bad shape medically, may actually be worse than those that Holmes and ALi faced.
But All three DID face vastly superior fighters with which to guage them with.
But this crop I listed above is the EXACT same quality of fighter the Kilits are facing right now. There ISN'T anything better than this.
And IF this is the best these two have to face, than NO, we can NOT gauge the merit and worth of these two...........unless we go to earlier showing agiasnt better fighters. Fighters they didn't perform well or admirably agiasnt.
Evan, on the surface I hear what you are saying about the size difference between Marciano and Wlad or Vit. But I do believe in all honesty that the determination of Rocky sees him through to stoppage wins of both.
Yes it is tough to envision Rocky landing on such taller fighters. But conversely, it is not going to be easy for these two to punch down, And I mean WAY down on a crouching, crowding pressur fighter who is throwing bombs at them the whole time.
I see frustration building in the Klits and them mentally breaking down from discouragement.
Sure if Rocky is just going to stand out side at the end of the Klits jabs and be an open target for these two, Yeah, it's going to be easy peasy lemon squeezy. But I don't see Rocky just doing like the recent Klit Opponents do, primarily, because I never saw him fight that way.
No he never faced a behemoth like these two, but I don't see why Rocky doesn't approach the fight the same way or alter his game plan.
Liston and Foreman USE their strength to get an opponent at the end where they want them and Liston of course can fight on the inside as well.
And I think both punch harder than eiehter Klit. So I can SEE these two stopping Rocky.
I can't do it with eitehr Klit or doing enough work to take a decision. In fact I can't envision either making it the route.
Size be damned. I see Rocky taking their hearts out of their chest cavities.
That first Lamon Brewster fight really showed how a normal sized heavy who doesn't have the reach of Corrie Sanders should fight Wladimir - he came with an all out assault, swinging shots designed to decap Wlad, roughing him up & setting a pace the big man cannot maintain - he had to eat some big shots but the pace and the punches broke Wladimir down inside 5 rds. Nobody in Wladimir's reign has been all over Wlad like Brewster was.
That left hook looked weak.
Any world class fighter shouldn't be fatigued at all vs a fighter not throwing punches back and just lying against the ropes . . .Eddie certainly applied zero pressure and for the wide majority of the fight didn't even use his legs.Originally Posted by HE Grant
I agree with Hawk, this is akin to Holmes defending against your Zanons, Evangelistas, Marvis Fraziers . . .for EVERY defense. I wouldn't rank anyone Klitschko has beaten during his current reign as more dangerous than the Bonecrusher Smith that Holmes fought in the twilight of his reign.
Bonecrusher Smith would reign long & violently over Calvin Brock, Ray Austin, Ruslan Chagaev, Eddie Chambers et al.
I think little Klit did fine -- the guy who deserves all the criticism is Chambers, who earmuffed his way to a face-down, kayo loss!
Klit yes does play it safe, but he gets the most out of his ability, which guys like Chambers do not. Klit will jab you to death if you let him.
Since when was "duck" a four-letter word?
Everyone knows how to beat the Klits, but very few have.
Little klit's size discourages people and his jab adds to that discouragement. His conditioning (minus Brewster) is top-notch.
After the seventh, he was looking for the kayo, spurred on by Manny.
He got the kayo he was looking for against a guy who ran and covered up the entire bout. And, look again, that left hook was set up by BODY WORK Klit did in last three rounds. Chambers hands lowered just enough for that hook to land.
He can be beat, sure -- but so can every fighter who ever lived! The challenge is to go do it.
-- Mike D
Bravo Mikie!!!! You hit the nail on the head. Larry Holmes, Ken Norton, Jimmy Young, Cooney and a bunch of heavies in that era who didnt have crunching power would have trouble with this version of Vlad. The guy has become a better boxer with hard work and it shows. Throw out the other loses. All great fighters in their careers have problems. Judge him by now and now he is a handful. He has all the tools. He doesnt go for the ko? Who says he has too? He only has to win.
Cooney and Norton didn't have power?Originally Posted by rocky111
from "don't blame Wlad for Chambers being so bad" to "Larry Holmes having an issue with facing Klit".
Manny Pacquiao looks good in shutting out Josh Clottey who did absolutely NOTHING in the ring and instead of using perspective on what happened in that bout, I read that Manny is now the best welterweight over the past 30 years.
Jesus fricken Christ. The Hyperbole Cops are out in FULL force!
(Hags, that was too obvious to even comment on. SHEESH, huh?)
I wasnt that impressed w/Wlad. Chambers was passive and hittable.....Wlad should have gotten him out of there earlier.
Clottey fought a tentative fight as well but, his defense was much tighter, and he was harder to hit for Manny than Chambers was for Wlad.
Guys, it is a pain in the ass and very hard to fight a guy as defensive minded as Clottey or Chambers.
Pac and Klit could have simply thrown a few jabs each round and still won, yet both tried to end the fight. Klit never stopped trying and kudos to him for landing that shot!
EDIT -- just found this quote from Little Klit which supports my view: "It’s hard to hit somebody who is very passive and tries not to be knocked out.”
I will be the first to admit that I can't stand the Klit brothers. Yes it is true that both have improved their craft through a lot of hard work. Yes it is equally true that both are the very best of one of the very worst if not the worst crop of heavyweights in boxing history. What pains or frustrates most boxing fans is that there is no one to test either of these guys chins, heart or stamina. That is why guys talk about what greats like Holmes, Marciano, Frazier and other decent champs like Bowe, Holyfield, and a younger Lennox Lewis would do. Wlad can fight Chris Byrd 2x but avoid fighting Sam Peters in a rematch? Speaking of rematches, fighting Brewster 3 years later coming of eye surgery and out of shape does not count. We all know how networks can pressure guys and offer them shots while they are not in top shape.... see Rahman vs. W. Klit. Larry Holmes in his prime defended his crown against lesser likes such as Leroy Jones, Ocasio, Zannon, and Rodriguez. If Holmes reign consisted mainly of those types instead of Norton, Cooney, Shavers, Witherspoon, Weaver, BoneCrusher, Bey, Williams, etc; we would not consider him great. Holmes's chin, heart, and character were tested by those guys. Joe Louis was tested by both of the hard punching Baer brothers, Conn 2x, Walcott 2x, Godoy 2x, Simon 2x, and a still dangerous Max Schmeling in a rematch... and Louis passed with flying colors. No one will ever anoit greatness until a fighter is tested. Roy Jones was considered Sugar Ray Robinson like until he was tested at light heavyweight level Is it the Klits fault that the divison really sucks? No. But it is also not the boxing fans fault for remembering them getting their asses kicked by Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster, and in the case of Vitali.... a faded Lennox Lewis and body shots and style of a feather fisted Chris Byrd. Like someone else had said on this site.... Wlad avoids the punchers unless they are in lousy shape. Eddie Chambers is a decent heavyweight, but his punches have more sting than pop.
Holmes and Ali with their speed, size and jabs would bust Klit up ... both hit hard enough to stop him ... I have always felt that Wlad is he more talented but more vulnerable brother ... Vitali is much tougher ... he guys Wlad are fighting cannot even get past his jab ... a guy with speed who canjab aqnd hit him like Ali or Holmes with their 80" reaches would bust Wlad up .....Originally Posted by rocky111
I have long believed that the brothers work as a team, knocking off opponents that are bad match ups for the other like Vitali taking care of Peter ...Originally Posted by sr71ko
Wlad took care of peter too...
For both never getting discouraged and both TRYING to win the bout and keeping up the pressure.
But........in that same vein, Kudos to Larry Holmes for never getting discouraged agianst Lucien Rodriguez who was very passive and his only attempt of ANYTHING in their bout was to try and NOT get knocked out.
Holmes does what he can with such an opponent and shuts him out and doesn't lose a second of any part of any round.
NOW, should we look at such a fight and heap praise on Holmes for doing what he could with such an opponent....or should we do as we HAVE done for the past 26 years and look at Rodriguez as one of the weakest challengers to the Heavyweight title that ever existed and continue on with the mantra of "The less said about such an opponent and fight, the better."
Becuase there is LITTLE to no difference between what Clottey did agiasnt Manny and Chambers did agiasnt Wlad, to what Lucien did agianst Holmes.
Wlad is pretty horrible. It's easy to forget how vulnerable he is because he hasn't fought anyone with an ounce of offensive skill in so long. Haye has the best chance, obviously because of his speed and power. One shot could break his leg.
At 6 6 244 of brawn Wlad sends plenty back at anybody he would fight including all time greats. Given the right frame of mind he is a danger to anyone. Big jab, big right, phsical power, good legs, etc. He a dangerous guy. I dont say he wins against everyone cause we all know he hasnt the best chin. But a bum he isnt especially at this point. He has alot of experience.
No surprises whatsoever. Both guys did what they normally do, bore us. But unlike Chambers, Wlad can still actually KO people despite his snooze tactics.
I thought Wlad looked nothing short of his normal self. He controlled the fight at all times & never pressing anymore than he usually does while Chambers offered as little as he usually does in his fights.
Wlad won with his experience & using his physics to his advantage, once again. Chambers, showing his obvious lack of experience, chose to waste energy on being a show-off & deadlifting Wlad rather than pressing the fight and being physical in ways that actually count. I bet he wished he had the energy he wasted on his brave little Wlad-lifts in the 12 round when he couldn't even get out of the way Wlad's lazy hook.
He deserved to finish on his back Saturday. Hopefully he learned a lesson in there somewhere because he certainly isn't learning it from his corner (who should have stopped the fight by the 8th). Chambers should do himself a favor, drop the other 20lbs of flab as well as his corner & become a cruiser.
Completely agree .Originally Posted by rocky111
ExactlyOriginally Posted by Mike DeLisa
Agreed but at some point you have to acknowledge that you ARE in fact still fighting for the fans just as much as for your own personal glory. If less & less people are watching or getting excited for your fights, what's the point? This is a sport founded on blood & guts. Nobody is coming to watch Wlad play chess over & over again with his extremely shallow bag of predictable tricks. Wlad's fights have all been dull since his KO to Sanders. Before he knew he could get KOd, his fights were actually decent to watch.Originally Posted by rocky111
Re your last two comments, that's the whole point I was making with the analogy of Holmes vs Lucien Rodriguez.
When ALL of your opponents are of that quality and ALL of your bouts are of the same tedious, sleep inducing quality, it's a bit Impossible to bestow many if any accolades on a fighter or his fights.
Again, if Holmes made 20 defenses agianst a Lucien Rodriguez type of fighter and every title fight resembled the "Holmes Coming" in Scranton, I doubt very many would be talking about Holmes in the terms he is spoken about now.
If at all.
Oh I know & I hear ya. I understand all sides of the argument here. Not so long ago, Lewis got tons of shit for jabbing from the tower all night before his KOs came. Wlad may not fight the way I would like him to, but that doesn't mean I don't respect or appreciate what he does. This is just one of those super touchy & subjective topics in the sport.