Holmes vs Lewis

[TKO11]

Hawk, I don't think yours or Husk's positions have been nearly as untenable as many others in this thread. However, I still think you both make this easier on Larry than it would actually be. I don't see Larry having an easy time with any version of Lewis, and perhaps ever struggling more with the younger, more aggressive Lewis than with the older and considerably more patient (even tentative) Lewis. I just don't think it's ever easy for Larry, and I further think that Lewis showed the ability to fight through some hard times MANY times in his career, which many on this thread either are unaware of or are deliberately ignoring.

I still pick Larry, but by a whisker, not a barn beam.

[hawk5ins]

for me is a bit like Old Foreman and OLDER Foreman (IE 70's and 90's George).

You just wish you could COMBINE the two fighters to get something pretty close to awesome.

Would LOVE to take the younger, faster, SLIMMER, more aggressive Correa-Lewis and combine him with the MUCH more Polished, skilled and cerebral Steward-Lewis. Excluding the faults and weaknesses that both versions had.

Younger version, wild and amatuerish. Older version, too tentative and IMO a bit too big as in carrying weight he didn't need.

Combine the positives of both versions and you practically have a perfect heavyweight.

THe reasons I select Holmes over both versions is the fact that I think he can capitalize on the weaknesses of both versions.

He can outclass and outsmart the younger version of Lewis who was in his physical prime. And he can out speed and capitalize on his skills (jab) on the larger more tentative Older Lewis.

Lennox is one of those fighters that I can't help but seperate the two versions of and am unwilling (maybe stubbornly so) to combine the two. In that I can't point to a strength that one version had and combine it with the other version.

I see two seperate fighters. Ala George Foreman.

Which is why I see a Holmes decision win like you do, but with a bit more room in the cards than you see.

But again though, I DO see Lewis, as a great Heavyweight. The Steward led version that is.

Hawk

[hagler04]

This is an interesting thread to read. From any observer reading it, Lennox Lewis was a slow, ponderous, unathletic bum with zero intestinal fortitude and barely enough skill to walk and breathe at the same time. Larry would own him, shut him out and KO him, more often than not.

What this ignores is that Lennox was down twice in his career, both time after being tagged with Sunday punches by punchers that make Larry look like Howard Davis. It further ignores that Lewis went 10 or more rounds many times in his career, and only in a few bouts did he not win by very large margins. Did he struggle periodically? Of course. Who didn't?

Larry shut out Shavers, Cobb and Spinks (Leon, of course), so this means he's going to shut out Lewis? He couldn't shut out Weaver, Snipes, Cooney, Spoon, Bonecrusher, Bey or Williams. And before anyone talks about what version of Holmes that was, let's also consider that not one of those guys would (with the possible exception of Spoon) have a snowball's chance in hell in the ring with Lewis.

Holmes by decision is actually my pick here as well. However I see it as being very close, with several anxious moments for Holmes, and not particularly exciting. Both would score, but neither heavily, and Holmes just a bit more frequently. For anyone who would suggest that Lewis would have no chance against Holmes, all I can say is that it is a point of view that ignores.... pretty much everything.

I think Smith, Cooney, and Snipes are all live underdogs vs Lewis, and Witherspoon is 50/50.

Walsh: How is Lewis far bigger than Cooney? They were both 6'5 and at their same point in age weighed the same (despite the Spinks and Foreman debacles Cooney essentially retired after the Holmes bout in his mid 20s), so that assertion is incorrect.

All that said I think it's a competitive bout but one Larry wins decisively over the distance.

[walshb]

IWalsh: How is Lewis far bigger than Cooney? They were both 6'5 and at their same point in age weighed the same (despite the Spinks and Foreman debacles Cooney essentially retired after the Holmes bout in his mid 20s), so that assertion is incorrect.

All that said I think it's a competitive bout but one Larry wins decisively over the distance.

Did I say Lewis was bigger than Cooney? I don't believe I did, Hags...And I certainly
didn't use the words "far bigger."

I wrote: "Also, he was NOT an easy man to out box. Holmes is meeting a bigger and stronger and taller man, and a whole deal better than the big Cooney."

I realise that it may be interpreted that I meant Lewis was bigger; that wasn't my intention.

I was pointing out that Holmes is meeting a bigger and stronger man, than he (Holmes), AND a man that is a whole
lot better than Cooney (as a fighter), who also happened to be bigger than Holmes.

BTW, regarding their size. Lewis looked to be the bigger dude. As in, he was
a more physical specimen, powerhouse. I know Gerry was a shade taller, but overall body frame
and size and density, Lewis was more impressive to me. Lewis also was the naturally
heavier guy and bigger framed, just my opinion.

[10-8]

This is an interesting thread to read. From any observer reading it, Lennox Lewis was a slow, ponderous, unathletic bum with zero intestinal fortitude and barely enough skill to walk and breathe at the same time. Larry would own him, shut him out and KO him, more often than not.

What this ignores is that Lennox was down twice in his career, both time after being tagged with Sunday punches by punchers that make Larry look like Howard Davis. It further ignores that Lewis went 10 or more rounds many times in his career, and only in a few bouts did he not win by very large margins. Did he struggle periodically? Of course. Who didn't?

Larry shut out Shavers, Cobb and Spinks (Leon, of course), so this means he's going to shut out Lewis? He couldn't shut out Weaver, Snipes, Cooney, Spoon, Bonecrusher, Bey or Williams. And before anyone talks about what version of Holmes that was, let's also consider that not one of those guys would (with the possible exception of Spoon) have a snowball's chance in hell in the ring with Lewis.

Holmes by decision is actually my pick here as well. However I see it as being very close, with several anxious moments for Holmes, and not particularly exciting. Both would score, but neither heavily, and Holmes just a bit more frequently. For anyone who would suggest that Lewis would have no chance against Holmes, all I can say is that it is a point of view that ignores.... pretty much everything.

Thanx for taking the time to type this out. My thoughts exactly. I'd be crushing toes much less stepping on several posters who have sold Lennox incredibly short and severely low-balled him in this match-up.

[walshb]

I may get creamed for saying this, but is Larry's chin all that better than Lennox's? I mean, what if the ref in the Shavers bout or Snipes bout had been a wee bit more cautious and protective, we would probably be dissing Larry's chin for two KO losses. Lennox got nailed by punches every bit as
clean and foreceful. He got up both times, albeit wobbly; but Larry too was quite unstable.

BTW, did the ref see Holmes career into the ring post? It is not clear from the film....

Now, this may have little bearing on them fighting, as I don't believe Larry will
KO Lennox. If there is a KO it will more than likely be Holmes being KOd.

Lennox's clean righ hand is a massive shot, as massive as Shavers, and Lewis would be a far better finisher IMO.

[hagler04]

I may get creamed for saying this, but is Larry's chin all that better than Lennox's? I mean, what if the ref in the Shavers bout or Snipes bout had been a wee bit more cautious and protective, we would probably be dissing Larry's chin for two KO losses. Lennox got nailed by punches every bit as
clean and foreceful. He got up both times, albeit wobbly; but Larry too was quite unstable.

BTW, did the ref see Holmes career into the ring post? It is not clear from the film....

Now, this may have little bearing on them fighting, as I don't believe Larry will
KO Lennox. If there is a KO it will more than likely be Holmes being KOd.

Lennox's clean righ hand is a massive shot, as massive as Shavers, and Lewis would be a far better finisher IMO.

I mis-interpreted what you said about Cooney's size, apologies.

As for the above post, I'd strongly disagree that Lewis's right hand was as devastating as Earnie's. A helluva punch, but Lewis's right hand was not the utter game changer that Shavers' was.

As for Larry's KDs, Larry got up wobbly, but the difference was when the ref asked him if he was ok, Larry was able to walk to him on steady legs and say alright. Just McCall, Lennox couldn't do that. And vs Rahman he was simply counted out.

[TKO11]

I would agree AND disagree with walsh on that one. I would suggest that Lennox's chin is undersold, and that it took a hell of a ding to put him on his back - same as Larry. But the difference was that Larry got up from just as massive of shots as Lennox took, and was ready to go again in very short order. Lennox wasn't - as hagler said, he was almost falling on the ref against McCall and he was unaware of what planet he was on vs. Rahman.

Lennox could also be wobbled more easily than Larry. But basically Larry was in a whole other realm than Lennox when it came to how quick he would recover when tagged. Any ref that would have stopped either the Shavers fight or the Snipes fight would have been desperately wrong, as Larry went right back to work both times.

[walshb]

I mis-interpreted what you said about Cooney's size, apologies.

As for the above post, I'd strongly disagree that Lewis's right hand was as devastating as Earnie's. A helluva punch, but Lewis's right hand was not the utter game changer that Shavers' was.

As for Larry's KDs, Larry got up wobbly, but the difference was when the ref asked him if he was ok, Larry was able to walk to him on steady legs and say alright. Just McCall, Lennox couldn't do that. And vs Rahman he was simply counted out.

Hags, not really possible to say who hit harder, Lewis or Shavers. Lewis had
a massive amount of size and weight behind his shots. Earnie seemed to
have more raw and natural power. Who hit harder? Only a measurement
machine can determine these things. I will say, that the shot that Lennox
landed to KO Rahman was IMO every bit as forceful as any shot I have ever seen.

[Julian Jackson]

Although I agree that the shot that Lewis landed on Rahman was devastating, the primary reason he was able to land that shot in the second fight is because Rahman was just standing there offering ZERO opposition. Make no mistake about it, Hasim Rahman is a TERRIBLE fighter that would have not been anywhere near a contender in any other era. He has average power, poor defense, no conditioning, and a suspect chin. Does anyone on this board think that a prime Hasim Rahman has any chance of lasting 2 rounds with a prime Tyson (or Foreman, or Louis, or Frazier, or Shavers for that matter) For Christ's sake he got KO'D twice by the inept Oleg Maskaev. In Rahman's prime, he was also beaten silly by a 40+ year old Holyfield. And, his only quality win EVER was over Lennox Lewis. Now that I think about it, Lewis is really the only major win on Oliver McCall's resume over an opponent in their prime. This says a lot about the weaknesses of Lennox Lewis. With the exception of some size, Larry Holmes holds every single advantage over Lennox. (Speed, skill, defense, conditioning, ring smarts, recuperative ability, and GUTS). Larry may or may not stop him, but outside of a lucky hail mary from Lennox, I see Larry clearly winning this bout. If Lennox somehow did get lucky (and that really is the only way I see him winning), I pick Larry to win the best of 3, and 9 out of 10 times if it came to that.

[walshb]

Although I agree that the shot that Lewis landed on Rahman was devastating, the primary reason he was able to land that shot in the second fight is because Rahman was just standing there offering ZERO opposition. .

JJ, my point was purely concerning the shot power, Lewis' one shot power vs. Shavers' one shot power. I think Lewis hits as hard with the right hand.
So, the fact that Rahman is not great or wide open is irrelevant here.

[hagler04]

JJ, my point was purely concerning the shot power, Lewis' one shot power vs. Shavers' one shot power. I think Lewis hits as hard with the right hand.
So, the fact that Rahman is not great or wide open is irrelevant here.

But the quality of the opponent does matter here. I'm sure one could look at film of Charley Powell or Lamar Clark knocking out 2nd rate opposition and then exclaim "that shot would've ko'd anybody' etc.

Shavers showed throughout his career one clean punch from him was a complete game-changer. Ellis, Norton, Ali, Lyle, Tillis, Mercado, Holmes, Bugner . . they were all stopped, dropped or in Ali's case seriously hurt by Earnie's punches. Lewis has some good KO wins over 2nd tier fighters (Ruddock, Golota, Morrison) but when you see him continually banging and banging on Briggs, Tyson, Mavoric, Tucker etc. and they kept coming forward or getting up . . .I don't see those guys taking as many clean punches from Shavers and doing anything but going to sleep.

[Julian Jackson]

My sentiments, exactly, Hags.

And to Walsh: a secondary corollary to the above mentioned evidence is the fact that if you fight an opponent who offers no opposition (ala Hasim Rahman) you can really load up with everything you've got without worrying about the return fire. This scenario is very rare in a professional boxing match, and is one of the things that seperates pro fighters from bar-room brwaler types. Pro fighters have to be able to throw short, fast, compact punches while still maintaing defense. Pro fighters (at least in a competitive age) are rarely, if ever, given the opportunity to just wind up and level an opponent the way Lewis did to Rahman in the return fight. And I believe it was only the ineptitude of Rahman that emboldened Lewis to do so. Lewis fought an absolute ghost of Mike Tyson and did almost no damage until Mike was gassed and had stopped throwing punches for more than 3 rounds.

Any heavyweight can hit a stationary target hard.

[TKO11]

Read the preceeding few posts and understand why I dropped my 2 cents in this thread in the the first place. Clearly Lennox is nothing more than a slow, ponderous, unathletic bum with zero intestinal fortitude and barely enough skill to walk and breathe at the same time. Hell, he could only knock out second raters (the same type of fighter who becomes a monster-eater when considering the opposition of Holmes or.... anyone else) and had to repeatedly bomb his weak-ass right hands on a ghostly Tyson for 3 rounds before doing any damage.

I wonder how Lennox managed to beat every man he ever fought. Miraculous.

[walshb]

JJ, Hags, you can debate the issue till the cows come home; it's not possible to say who hit harder. I already clearly said that Lennox was probably the more forceful and heavier handed, and that Earnie had the more relaxed and effortless power. Two types of hitter, and whether unloading or not, my point is simply that a clean and intentioal flush right from Lewis was as heavy and forceful as any shot Earnie threw.

JJ, seriously, go watch the Lewis-Tyson fight again. Lewis did a hell of a lot
of damage to Mike. Mike's toughness and chin were the reason it took 8 rds.

I would also be very confident that Tyson would withstand Shavers.

To imply that Lennox's shots were all haymakers and unloaded on stationary targets is inaccurate. I assume you want to say that Earnie's were all picture perfect textbook shots? I could easily argue that Holmes was stationary and wide open for the 7th rd bomb he took.

As to Earnies shots being game changers? Did Ali really suffer from the whopper in
rd two? Had Lennox planted a clean shot on Ali, wouldn't it have had a similar effect, if not
a greater effect? Ali was wobbled and hurt, but not knocked down or out.

[Julian Jackson]

I never said Lennox Lewis had no talent. But I have seen almost every one of his fights (including a few in person) and feel that he is just a good big fighter that came around at the perfect time. I thought his knockout of Ruddock was impressive, but very few of his other performances did much for me. The Tyson fight was a complete farce, and I am quite sure that both Lennox and Mike are keenly aware of that. I don't blame either of them for capitalizing on the easy money. I agree that Tyson's toughness and chin are what carried it to 8 rounds, but Tyson stopped throwing punches against Lewis after 2 1/2 rounds, and essentially resigned himself to taking his beating. But Lennox (in spite of his enormous size advantage) was still too timid to do anything until several rounds later when Emmanuel Steward was yelling at him that Tyson wasn't even punching back. I thought that an over the hill Holyfield and and over the hill Mercer gave Lennox fits, and he was one-punch, knocked out by 2 fighters who should have never seen a top 10 ranking. I think Lennox is a little better than the Klitchko's, but he essentially ushered in the new era of large, margainally talented huge men staying on top of a talentless field. It is not Lennox's fault, and at least I give Lennox props for never ducking anybody. That combined with a very nice record will serve him very well historically. But, history by way of books or records only means so much. I have seen Lennox fight, I have seen Holmes fight, and in my opinion there is no comparison between them skillwise. Larry is far superior.

[TKO11]

I agree. I also think that Floyd Mayweather is far superior in talent to Lewis, but that doesn't mean I think Lewis is a bum or can't beat him..... That isn't to suggest that Larry is small, it's to say that you look at the individual matchups and find that the guys that troubled Lewis aren't guys that had the bag of tricks that Larry did. So pointing to his opposition isn't that effective. The same goes for Lar when figuring out how he matches with Lewis - the closest thing he fought to Lewis was a close-to-inactive Cooney, and Gerry did plenty in that fight to score on Larry (cup shots notwithstanding).

I also think Lewis is superior to Mancini, but I would pick little Ray to give Mr. Mayweather the utlimate headache at 135.....

But to say Lewis is only "a little better" than the Klitchkos, when he stood toe-to-toe with the better of them on the best night of his life, and when in terrible shape and pretty much over the hill, and slashed him up so badly the guy's BRAIN was showing.... I just don't get that. 1997-2000 Lewis would have planted either Klitchko so hard it would take a "Lazarus come forth" kind of thing to get him on his feet again. Of course, assuming he took the fight seriously (something he failed to do with Rock the first go around).

[Julian Jackson]

I love the "Lazarus Come Forth" reference, and have to agree that Prime Lewis would most likely demolish both Klitschkos. If only we had gotten the distinct pleasure of watching such a joyous event. It might even make me go to church.

[Phillyfan]

I never said Lennox Lewis had no talent. But I have seen almost every one of his fights (including a few in person) and feel that he is just a good big fighter that came around at the perfect time. I thought his knockout of Ruddock was impressive, but very few of his other performances did much for me. The Tyson fight was a complete farce, and I am quite sure that both Lennox and Mike are keenly aware of that. I don't blame either of them for capitalizing on the easy money. I agree that Tyson's toughness and chin are what carried it to 8 rounds, but Tyson stopped throwing punches against Lewis after 2 1/2 rounds, and essentially resigned himself to taking his beating. But Lennox (in spite of his enormous size advantage) was still too timid to do anything until several rounds later when Emmanuel Steward was yelling at him that Tyson wasn't even punching back. I thought that an over the hill Holyfield and and over the hill Mercer gave Lennox fits, and he was one-punch, knocked out by 2 fighters who should have never seen a top 10 ranking. I think Lennox is a little better than the Klitchko's, but he essentially ushered in the new era of large, margainally talented huge men staying on top of a talentless field. It is not Lennox's fault, and at least I give Lennox props for never ducking anybody. That combined with a very nice record will serve him very well historically. But, history by way of books or records only means so much. I have seen Lennox fight, I have seen Holmes fight, and in my opinion there is no comparison between them skillwise. Larry is far superior.

Beautiful post.

[Overhand_Right]

We saw with Mercer and Bruno and even the first Rahman fight when you jab with Lewis or outjab him it seems to nullify a huge part of his game. Also, like Mercer and unlike Bruno & Rahman Holmes is not really vulnerable to a one punch hail mary. Even if he goes down he gets up & has freakishly quick recovery powers.

Interestingly, looking back at my cruelly neglected & underated 'Reach of the heavyweight champs' thread (plug) there isn't much reach advantage for LL at all:

http://cyberboxingzone.com/cbzforum/...he+heavyweight

I see Holmes punching out a 15 rd ud, suriving the odd scare but confusing Lewis and maybe even knocking him down or staggering him late. His right hand is certainly as potent as Akinwande's, who had LL down.

[Surf-Bat]

Interestingly, looking back at my cruelly neglected & underated 'Reach of the heavyweight champs' thread (plug)

.

When I saw that you listed Valuev and several others as "champs" and put them among the true champs instead of giving them a separate stepchild list ("titlists") I made a conscious decision on the spot to be cruel and neglect your list.

(Kidding pal. Just giving you a hard time )

[Overhand_Right]

At least I completely left out WBO champs. Lol.

I know what you mean though, but its hard to seperate paper champs from guys who were titlists but for whatever reason didn't get a shot at the top guy in their time. Without opening a fierce debate people like Tubbs, Pinky et al were far better than many of Holmes opponents. Ken Norton is too good to consigned to the 'titlist bin'. Oliver McCall flattened Lewis - hardly a paper champ. Etc.

I'll shut up now.

[TKO11]

We saw with Mercer and Bruno and even the first Rahman fight when you jab with Lewis or outjab him it seems to nullify a huge part of his game. Also, like Mercer and unlike Bruno & Rahman Holmes is not really vulnerable to a one punch hail mary. Even if he goes down he gets up & has freakishly quick recovery powers.

Interestingly, looking back at my cruelly neglected & underated 'Reach of the heavyweight champs' thread (plug) there isn't much reach advantage for LL at all:

http://cyberboxingzone.com/cbzforum/...he+heavyweight

I see Holmes punching out a 15 rd ud, suriving the odd scare but confusing Lewis and maybe even knocking him down or staggering him late. His right hand is certainly as potent as Akinwande's, who had LL down.

This is the best post on the entire thread in support of what Larry could do that would cause Lennox trouble. Succinct and 100% correct.