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Yes, I was completely in agreement with the latter view, but saw a lot more of the former after carefully watching the replay.
In actuality I therefore conclude it was a bit of both.
I have to say though, I've never quite seen a counter-puncher the like of Floyd. If you leave a gap open for one second, be sure it will be hit and you will be punished for it!
TWE - good point about the jab to the stomach that preceded the right hand to the chin. Simple, but a pre-considered, set up shot nonetheless. Mosely began the fight with jabs to the body - and landing with ease, with Mayweather prioritising protection of the head.
Perhaps Mosley was testing the waters with the earlier jabs until he saw a sufficient window created to drop the right hand to the chin.
Did SSM even attempt the same simple set up later in the bout? I don't recall him attempting it but I'd have to watch the replay to be sure.
Certainly, Roach and Pac would be looking at that particular set up and any other possible variations of the theme (prudent switching from body to head and head to body). With Pac's speed, angles and punch repertoire, I can imagine something more sophisticated than a simple one-two and something that Floyd would find difficult to defend against - even if he becomes somewhat wise to the set up.
upon watching the replay to see if there was something that I didn't pick up on during the live viewing, but it was in essence the same thing.
Don't know why Shane stopped doing anything with about a min to go in the 2nd, but it was definitely NOT from anything Floyd did to curb Shane.
His "burst" simply ceased.
And then that was that. From that point on it was all Floyd.
Shane's moment in the 2nd, was more an abberation than anything else.
Even in the 1st round, Shane wasn't doing anything.
He was what I expected coming into the bout.
Learned nothing new in the replay.
Hawk
Agreed, I do think Peak Roy Jones was as good as a counter puncher, even having people scared to through jabs. he also could counter hard to the body, Ask Virgil Hill.Originally Posted by The Welterweight Epitome
he attempted it, and landed it somewhere around round 9-10, but no effect. He also landed a good left hook, and Floyd laughed it off, and landed hard right hand leads in response.
I dont think it had nothing to do with Shane, at all. I think Floyd simply adjusted and took the right hand away. Hell he didnt have to look for anything else. As the Mayweathers said before the fight, and through out the fight, Shane has no jab, so Mayweather simply had to look for the right hand, or a left hook, that Mayweathers spacing took that out of play.
Mayweather hit him with so many lead right hands.....it was tough to digest looking at it, again. If Mayweather had power, Mosley was gone. There was one point where i thought Mosley was a bit woosy.
Pacman is gonna have to figure out now to get past the left jab. In seeing Mayweather, a more aggressive Mayweather, Pacman is up agaisnt hell. We do know that vs JMM he had trouble vs a counter puncher. Well Mayweather is the best counter puncher. The reach issue will have Pacman having to deal with the jab to get inside, and that will be toxic. Pacman as good as he is, he does get off balance from time to time. Can you imgane him being off balance in front of Mayweather.
Like Mosley who from time to time left himself wide open, and wanted to touch gloves. Pacman can not make that mistake, and his habit of always reaching down to adjust his shorts, when he comes out of a clinch,,,,Bad bad bad move vs Mayweather. Again as Gotti and Mosley,,,Mayweather will exploit any opening, at any time, if the bell has sounded
Mayweather Mosley,,,showed me more of Mayweather than other fights have. Sure Mosley was 38, but I ask you all this. Did Mosley have a jab at age 33. Maybe a 33 year old mosley finishes Mayweather in the 2nd round. I am sure he would look better. However, he always held his hands low, and he never had a jab, and he would always get jittery. The Mosley that fought DLh the 2nd time did he look that great? I do not know but IMO, based on this, Mayweather techique, speed, defense, counterpunching,,and they way he had Mosley backing up,,,IMO lends itself to Mayweather simply being the better fighter regardless of when they fight.
One thing, Did you all pick up on the fact that Mayweather was a bit more stationary. Maybe it was because he felt he could be, but interesting. I heard Roach comment on this, and I noticed it too.
Mayweather put up an excellent performance but let's not pretend that Mosley didn't begin to gas badly after only six minutes of reasonably expected output.
Not outstanding output. Not above average output. Just reasonable output but it was still good enough to catch Floyd flush and rock him to his socks.
From round 3 on, Shane's mouth hung open. The guy was fighting on fumes. He could barely get his shots off even when Mayweather was clearly in no position to counter and there to be hit. As such, Shane was simply that much easier meat for Mayweather.
I'll watch the fight again but Pac is an entirely different prospect again anyway - Mayweather's performance against Mosley is hardly the model for success against Manny.
And I'll even trim off a min as well.
I'd say after 5 mins.
And the sad thing, is that in the first THREE Mins (round 1), Shane didn't do all that much in that round.
I asked the question aloud much earlier in the thread about what was it Floyd did to turn things around or did Shane simply cease doing what was working in the first 2 mins of the second round. I asked as I didn't have a copy of the fight and only watched it live on line.
The answer was Floyd did nothing different. He stayed with his same approach and SHane simply could not continue what he was doing. At that point Floyd was more aggressive. But that was not what shut Shane down.
Shane shut Shane down.
I will admit though, that upon second viewing, Floyd was NOT as hurt as I originally thought watching it live. In my mind, that staggering and buckling of Floyd by SHane, was much more dramatic than it actually was.
I do think Prime Shane follows up on THAT situation better than what we saw. But this was not a case where Floyd was "out" of it and Shane was unable to capitalize. He was hurt momentarily, and Floyd recoverd well. It DID help his case that Shane was very ineffective at following up. But Maybe had THIS SHane done a better job of doing so, Floyd rides it out just the same.
He wasn't THAT hurt.
Hawk
We see this differently no biggie. I believe styles and technique make fights, as does reflexes and slowing there off.
We will never know as they didnt fight when both were peak, what a shame, and this is part of the knock on mayweather, deservingly so. However, from my vantage point, Mosley not having a jab, resulted in a great defensive fighter having to focus on defending the right hand only, and this right not being masked by anything. It would have helped Mosley immensly if he had a jab with some pop. His only other punch he could throw was a left hook, and mayweather took that out of play with his jab keep in Mosley out of play and controllling the distance.
I agree that a Prime Mosley follows up much better on a Hurt Mayweather. No so sure he stops Mayweather, but Mayweather was seriously hurt with that 2nd punch, as he damm near went down, and 99% of others would have, as his knew did more than buckled it pretty much caved in for a split second, and I knew was going down. Also, you can see for part of that 2nd round, when mayweather was trying to fight back, he was a bit dazed as he through some lunging punches and his legs his balance everything was off. However, he regrouped great under pressure, which is what great fighters do.
My last post in this thread was to PD99.
I try to do my best to address WHO I might be speaking to, if any of my posts are in response to anyone in particular.
Sorry for any confusion.
Hawk
It all comes down to one's own definition of "hurt" and "badly hurt" I suppose.
For some viewers, being hurt for only a moment or two might never constitue being "badly hurt". One might reckon a badly hurt fighter simply could not recover that quickly. Personally, I think a fighter can still be badly hurt, if only for a matter of seconds but still be saved by excellent to extraordinary recuperative powers.
I've yet to rewatch the fight but the way I saw it in real time - the first right hand had Floyd holding on for dear life but he appeared to have reasonable control of his legs - all be that "apparent" control whilst holding onto Mosley with a vice like grip. But the punch did make him hold on as desperately as he did.
The second right hand clearly buckled Floyd's knees and his legs were clearly not right for a second or two following that punch. Perhaps Floyd was still carrying some hurt from the first big right hand and the second served to compound the effect.
I think a fair description would be that the second punch almost put Mayweather down - Floyd looked to be heading south for all money but stopped himself about half way down. I think much of the drama was in Floyd's ability to somehow halt his descent.
Hit with an explosive shot, some fighters are screwed both head and body. They're not only staggered but well "buzzed" in the head also. I think, as brief as it was, PBF was badly hurt in so far as his legs betraying him. A short circuit between mind and body. However, his head was still reasonably clear and his legs returned to him in quick time.
If Ali Shavers rd 2 bore any similarity it would be that Shavers big right also took Ali's legs almost completely away momentarily but Ali's head was still clear enough and mind and body were quickly rejoined thereafter. A large contributor to Ali's perceived chin was his amazingly quick recuperative powers.
I hate to say it (because I'll be rooting for Manny if and when they do fight) but I think Floyd showed both a very good chin and excellent recuperative powers - anyway you slice it, the right hands landed by Mosley were big shots and if Floyd was either not that hurt or badly hurt by same, it's still a strong credit to him to have ridden it out either way.
PS- My response in this particular post is to Hawk but my previous post was in response to Wpink. I think. No, I am sure.
Last edited by PD99; 05-10-2010 at 11:55 AM.
& my last post was to you.
pd99- good post couldn't agree more.
Yes, I thought your last post (now third last post) was to me. Cheers.
I agree.
But on another note: I would like to see how Pac deals with Floyd hitting him clean the way he did Mosley.
Pac since upping the weight, generally fights guys who move forward and hence, when they punch, he is always covered up in his new found 'shell defence', let alone anticipating the punch. If he misses and Floyd does hit him cleanly and unexpected, I think Pac himself could be the one on the rocked end (whilst everyone is only considering Floyds chin).
Perhaps a thought......
Last edited by The Welterweight Epitome; 05-11-2010 at 03:31 AM.
for some reason, Manny clams up like the 38 year old Shane did from the 2 min mark on in the 2nd round to the end of the bout, I have a difficult time seeing Floyd opening up in the manner that he was able to with SHane.
Manny won't be standing their doing shuffles and feints and not applying pressure or Not opening up.
I wouldn't try to extrapolate TOO much what we saw two weeks ago with what happens when in the ring with Manny Pacquiao.
Hawk
This is not directed at the last poster. However, after reading the content I have to point out that regardless of if Manny clams up or not, he will have a major issue, in fact several major issues. He had issues with JMM counter punching, twice. So it is apparant that style has some effect on him.
I do not think Manny has ever faced a counter puncher as sharp, fast, accurate, as Mayweather. Combine with mayweather defense and speed of feet, Manny can come in with the best game plan and in the best shape ever. He will still have to find a way to get past the jab, defense and devestating counterpunching ability of Mayweather.
Mayweather will have challenges too, especially if Roach is correct that he has no more legs. Then the fight in my opinion turns back to Pacman, if Mayweather can not avoid pac unleashing his 100+ punches per round. If Manny can do this, then Mayweather not only can lose, but can get stopped. If mayweather can look as sharp vs Manny as he did vs mosley then I wonder how Manny who struggled vs a counter puncher will be able to deal with the best counter puncher out there.
I know some will point out Castillo. I would too, and if mayweather is forced to the ropes vs Manny like he vs Castillo, then Mayweather has issues. It all depends on the style of fight the erupts. If it is a boxing match, this equals mayweather. If they exchange and fight, I am leaning towards pacman.
That last post wasn't directed at me.
When people want to use the second Marquez bout as Proof that Manny has issues with counterpunchers, would they please actually pop in the bout?
Marquez was at his best and most successful against Manny when JMM CAME TO Manny and Manny tried to counter Marquez.
When Manny was aggressive and pushing the fight agianst Marquez, he was at his best against him.
I quick blurb from the RING when summarizing Manny's fights in his FOTY award nomination:
"When Manny went on the offensive, he generally won the round, when he tried to play the role of boxer, he generally lost the round."
A bit oversimplistic, but absolutely true.
WATCH the rematch again. Manny aggressive equated to success.
Hawk
This is directed at you. I will watch the rematch again. No problem. The one thing I ask you to consider, is keep in mind it is not a fight that hinges only on what Pacman will do. It hinges on what both will do.
Manny being aggressive as I noted, will reap many benefits if Mayweather has lost his legs. If Mayweather can still move and tie up, and jab and counter punch a often off balance Pacman, on top of that keep that jab in his face with his longer reach, I personally think, Manny has some major challenges in finding a way to get into Mayweather. I do not think it will be as simple as Manny wants to force a firefight, and this happens.
We will see, what happens, as it looks like they may fight.
I also agree that we can not look entirely too much into the Mosley fight as Mosley was 38 years old. However, what we can look at is the jab, the accurate right counter. We can also look at how Mosley Hurt Mayweather in Round 2. I am truly looking at this from both angles.
IMO it depends on the style of fight. Period If Manny gets his way and forces a fight, Mayweather IMO has hell to deal with. If he can't then it will be a long night for Pacman.
I won't extrapolate the Mosley fight too much, but I believe Manny with his aggression is bound to be hit with numerous counters unless he can get May out of there early. Not to mention, when May is sucked into a fight, he definately plants his feet more on his punches so there will be a bit more heat on them.
It is a clean, unexpected shot that I want to see Manny take.....
I do not see how people do not see how easy Mayweather will hit Manny. That is not saying he will win, cause Mayweather can hit Manny, but if Manny gets to get his shots off on Mayweather then it will be a tough night for Mayweather. However I read very little of the what will Manny do to deal with the speed, accuracy precision punching of Mayweather. Remember again the cotto fight,... Remember how Cotto was getting his shots off early on Pacman. You have the think Cotto is no where near the boxer Mayweather is, and Mayweather will generally execute his plan flawlessly for a entire fight.
Again people need to look at what both fighters will be up agains, not just Mayweather. Both will have some major hurdles.
Manny hasn't proven his beard up to this point yet for you?
He's taken punches of Barrera, Morales, Marquez at the 126 and 130 range, all of whom were considered Punchers.
And he clearly took the shots of Clottey and Cotto at Welterweight. And I doubt anyone would argue that both DIDN'T hit with much more Pop than Mayweather has EVER shown. Planting or not.
I see no reason for Manny to HAVE to end it early in order for him to win. Heck, he's proven to have the superior stamina here.
Translation, the number of punches he throws, and the number of POWER punches he throws over a 12 round fight.
Manny gears up throughout a bout. Hatton and Morales III aside, he's not necessarily a blazing starter. His offense builds and builds through a bout.
That's gonna be the case here as well.
And given that Floyd typically starts slow as well, I don't even see Manny starting out in a hole (IE giving away the first couple of rounds).
Hawk
Last edited by hawk5ins; 05-12-2010 at 09:10 AM.
Hawk, agreed on the starting slow point, and I'm glad both do, because I want to see how their styles match up, so I don't want an early knockout.
I would say, at 147 Floyd hits harder than Barrera, Morales or Marquez did at 126/130 (granted, Manny can probably take a better punch also now up at this weight), but it's the unexpected scenario of the counter-punching that I think may get Manny (not Mayweathers power per se). I don't necissarily think this will stop (KO) Manny, nor do I think Floyd will follow it up (TKO), but it could well and truly make Manny reluctant to swarm for long periods of the fight, similar to that of Marquez....
Which leads onto my next point, Cotto and Clottey both hit Manny when he was covered up and expecting punches. He was rarely hit clean on the tip of the chin/temble with a shot that he had no idea was coming.......
On another note: I also wonder how Manny gets his combinations off on a fighter who consistently (assuming Mayweather will) moves laterally/out of range, when Manny even begins to throw his first punch. Similar to what Marquez did and it appears to work (as Manny does not bull in the way a Duran would have).
Last edited by The Welterweight Epitome; 05-12-2010 at 11:49 PM.
Welter...
I agree with your points. One thing many keep leaving out, who simply appear to refuse at all odds to accept that Mayweather is a special talent, is that 41 have tried to force their style on mayweather and 41 have came up short, at least in the eyes of the judges. Pacquio while being a great great fighter has had issues with lessor counter punchers, slower fighters, fighters not over the smarts of a Mayweather, not as big as mayweather, Not sure about the jab....Mayweather is all of this combined.
Still I agree that IF..IF Pacman can get inside the jab and IF IF Mayweathers legs are shot as Freddie Roach insists, and IF IF Mayweather counters do not keep Pacman honest or eat him alive coming in, then he can launch is barrage and IMO win this fight.
It comes down to the style the fight is fought in. It is not only up to Pacman, which I constantly (not from you) keep hearing. They both have to make adjustments.
Finally. A funny thing. Fighters like hearns, Duran,leoanrd hagler, especially leoanrd, and Ali have been applauded for employing the style to beat their opponent. Ali earlier in his career speed, later using the rope a dope vs Foremen, warring with Frazeir. Leoanrd for boxing with Duran when the 1st fight he slugged and showed heart and greatness but lost, Hearns slugging, Benetiz out countering a counter puncher, hagler boxing and moving. Well Mayweather has shown this too vs the fighters of his era that he has faced. Has it been vs a duran, or hearns, no but he did use his version of a rope a dope style vs DLH, and even said before the fight exactly what was going to happen. DLh will tire out. Vs Mosley a older vs but a version that had just beaten Margerito , Mayorga and vargas, he said he has no jab...well he exploited that. Judah he said he will self destruct...Well what happened. Jmm is a laugher at welterweight, but he was the 2nd ranked pound per pound and he moved up, just like Pacman did who it was a laugher vs DLH right....Hmm only this time Mayweather held up his bargain after being off for 2 years.
Mayweather is not at his starting weight, but has beaten very good fighters at 147. Some are aged, and some he has not faced. If he faces Pacman and beats him, I wonder how many people will slow down or stop their criticism them. I was one of them. No he has not beaten the resume of a Leonard, but what about Duran? It will anger some, some will say how dare we compare him to the almighty Duran. I wonder if somebody did not know the auro of Duran simply looked at the resume on paper the wins at lightweight, vs mayweathers wins, and then compared how they rose through the weights, how would it pan out in the eyes of a person who is unbiased and simply looks at what they did in the ring. Mayweather as much as many hate him, has been a great great champion, and now he is proving a great draw, and once he fights Pacman, this will be the win that elevates him to super elite status, or deflates him and many will say "See I told your so".
As hard as it is to do, I wonder how many true boxing fans will sit back and acknowlege a career that shows wins over Corrales, Castillo, Dlh, Hatton, Mosley, Genero Hernandez, angel manfredy, Jesus Chavez,Gotti, etc.. has won titles in 5 divisions, is still undefeated, has pretty much destroyed almost all his opponents, and IF IF he does the same to Pacman..will people give him his due.
You are right. Manny is not Duran.
But I don't think you need to be Duran or as great as Duran, in order to beat Mayweather.
I think Manny Pacquaio being as good as Manny Pacquiao is, is enough to get the job done.
Hawk
We will see. No excuses if mayweather beats him, none vice versa either
I think Manny can do it. He has more raw speed, coupled with his intensity, combination punching from mind boggling angles Floyd will for the first time in his career have his defense penetrated... often.
(Yes this post is being directed to Jakob, which is why I have his name listed in the Title here.)
That is the way I see things going as well. And have so for a while now as well.
Nothing I've seen within the past year has caused me to sway on this selection. If anything, seeing the comfort level displayed by Manny at 147 over his past two bouts, has me feeling even more secure with this selection.
Lets hope it does come off now.
Hawk
Since it's in the website for all, then whomever wants to respond can. There is PM. I would suggest to grow up, just my opinion.
you could respectfully Ignore my posts that are not directed to you in any way shape or form.
I am intentionally addressing my posts to whom I am responding to, so there is ZERO confusion here.
I am doing my absolute Damndest to ignore you, and have PROMISED the Mods I will do so as well.
Please reciprocate and Ignore My posts as well.
They are NOT directed to you. Ignore them. Better yet, place ME on ignore and you won't have to even see them.
I'm begging here. The site is HUGE.
Let's NOT go into this pissing match again.
THANK YOU.
Hawk
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