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Thread: Louis' Best Opponent

  1. #91
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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    mr.E,


    thank you for sharing that outstanding info. i have heard of it before, but I don't believe it. ill tell u why


    walcott was a bit inconsistent, especially in non title fights. walcott showed up to the layne fight overweight(over 200lb), overconfident(layne 4 to 1 underdog), and it was a simply case of walcott taking a young unproven prospect lightly and layne upset walcott.


    i have the layne-walcott fight on tape, layne looks better on film in this fight than some of his later fights in the 1950s. layne was very strong, and he simply bulled walcott to the ropes the entire fight, and outworked walcott. layne displayed some very solid inside fighting doing more damage. walcott did not display enough aggresion. the fight was basically even going into the 10th, and thats where layne had a blistering final round outworking and outphysicaling walcott. walcott did not bring his A game and did not show up in the best of shape, but it was layne who made him pay the price. layne at the time was considered a a hard hitting slugger and a good undefeated prospect but that layne was a bit crude and did not have enough experience and was being overmatched in the walcott fight. layne went into the ring at a 4 to 1 underdog. it was a big upset and layne proved he was a very dangerous challenger that couldnt be taken lightly by anyone. I have no doubt walcott would have won the rematch. and remember, this was layne in 1950 at his peak. not the layne post 1951 that went on to lose a lot because he was ruined after suffering brutal back to back KO losses to marciano and charles.

    heres the reason why walcott got a 3rd title shot and it comes from a man who was close with ezzard charles and was at the boxing scene in the 1950s:

    "it comes direct from inside the charles camp. jake mintz had been shoehorned into the charles management circles by forces who squeezed the original "owners" mostly out. ezzard liked to keep busy but there was no fight scheduled right at this time. suddenly jake mintz said he ...unilaterally....had virtually scheduled one more with walcott. said jersey joe would like to retire and it would be nice to get him one more good purse. my source said this was crazy...that you don't fight a guy like that three times. but...as ezzard agreed ...give walcott a purse and then go on to the other contenders....the match was made. then...someone from the walcott camp contacted the charles people to thank mintz for the $10,000 fee he's asked for for making the match. my contact said the other charles people yelled...they knew nothing about any $10,000 "fee"...and it was obvious that jake had pulled a fast one...but by now their influence was gone."


    he also believes that layne-walcott was not a fix.



    the charles fight was a sketchy hometown decision where jack dempsey(a good friend of laynes from his hometown) scored the fight. dempsey scored it in rounds 2-1 layne with 7 even rounds. a bit sketchky if u ask me. the new york times reported they thought charles won and had it 6 rounds to 4 charles. others reported they thought charles won but they all thought it was close. layne brought his A game for this fight, and charles took him lightly considering what charles did to him in 51. layne made him pay the price this time, but still charles most likely did enough to win. the fight was in laynes hometown, the ref was laynes friend, and the only judge was a good friend of laynes who had a sketchky scorecard. also, this loss did nothing to help charles(who was coming off a decision loss to walcott), and this win did nothing for layne to earn him a title shot so i hardly suspect it was a 'fix'.


    poster john garfield who wrote articles on this site was around during the boxing scene in the 1950s.

    heres what john garfield had to say about layne



    "Throw out the record book on Layne, he was a rugged brawler with a quick, very heavy right. As he got shopworn and discouraged, more and more, he got outworked and beaten down.

    But, when he first raged out of Utah -- full of piss and vinegar -- he'd have been a handful for anybody. He could crack with that right."



    - i would have liked to see layne in his prime take on baker, valdes.
    Very interesting-- thanks!

  2. #92
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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharkey
    As for Miske and the rest, I have had too many arguments about the shaft I feel they get from historians and fight fans (Hawk) to get into it again.

    This says nothing about the supposed dopes of the pre-Louis post-Dempsey/Tunney era.
    Lots of fighters from the 1915-1930 era are severely under-rated today, if you ask me. Dempsey, Tunney, Langford, Jeannette, McVey, Greb and Wills all get the respect they deserve. The ones who do not get the respect they deserve are, in my opinion: Jess Willard, Fred Fulton, Kid Norfolk, Billy Miske, K.O. Bill Brennan, Tommy Gibbons, Luis Firpo, George Godfrey and Jack Sharkey.

  3. #93
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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr E
    Lots of fighters from the 1915-1930 era are severely under-rated today, if you ask me. Dempsey, Tunney, Langford, Jeannette, McVey, Greb and Wills all get the respect they deserve. The ones who do not get the respect they deserve are, in my opinion: Jess Willard, Fred Fulton, Kid Norfolk, Billy Miske, K.O. Bill Brennan, Tommy Gibbons, Luis Firpo, George Godfrey and Jack Sharkey.
    i agree, kid norfolk never gets his due respect today

  4. #94
    mike
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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    ditto of mr. es comments.

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    I think it was amazing how many punches Buddy Baer was able to take from Joe Louis.Joe Louis could have knocked out several "bums of the month" with the punches he hit Buddy Baer with.

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by brutu
    I think it was amazing how many punches Buddy Baer was able to take from Joe Louis.Joe Louis could have knocked out several "bums of the month" with the punches he hit Buddy Baer with.

    buddy baer had a very good chin, he had never been down for the 10 count before he fought joe louis

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    The best fighters that Louis beat were Billy Conn, Max Schmeling, Jersey Joe Walcott, Max Baer, Arturo Godoy, Tony Galento, Buddy Baer and Bob Pastor.

    Conn was a great boxer, he had speed, movement, excellent defense, a perfect jab, classic combinations and a good chin. The only time he was ever knocked out was by Louis.

    Schmeling was an excellent counter-puncher and a fighter in the class of Jerry Quarry and one who wasn't so susceptible to cuts. I think Schmeling was better then Quarry. Hank Kaplan said that Schmeling had the best straight right hand- down the pipe and between the gloves that he ever saw on film.

    Walcott's moves, multiple jukes, feints, and elusive footwork and upper body movement upset Joe's rhythm, but Louis was already past his peak when they fought. Louis still knocked him out in the rematch. Also the rumors of Walcott dropping Louis in sparring are meaningless. So what. Those same who like to point that out fail to say that Louis also dropped Walcott in sparring. One can see pictures of it on p 149 of "100 Years of Boxing" by Bert Sugar.

    Max Baer was only 1 year removed from losing the heavyweight title on an upset, he was still one of the most dangerous sluggers in heavyweight history, he had stamina to fight 20 rounds and a rock solid chin. He was never before down before facing Louis, which demonstrates the type of shocking hitter that Louis was.

    Buddy Baer had 23 first round knockouts thats tied for third in the division with Mike Tyson and right behind Earnie Shavers (24) and Jack Dempsey (25). He was 6'6" and between 237-250 pounds at his peak. No question that Buddy was a tremendous hitter.

    Bob Pastor was a very successful contender who beat most of the uncrowned black heavyweights of the 30's and early 40's like Turkey Thompson. He was an excellent defensive fighter and clever boxer.

    I want to mention the Farr fight. First of all this fight is blown way out of proportion by Boxrec morons. According to the NY Times Louis hurt his right hand in the 4th round and he hardly throws any rights to the head after that. I have watched the film and read the reports. The fight was about even after 10 rounds, but Louis clearly wins most of the champiosnhip rounds outjabbing Farr. The times reported "As a cold matter of fact, Louis won this battlenot by punching in the sense of paralyzing hitting but by boxing- by expert use of a stiff, punishing, flawless left jab. This was the one weapon of attack eh found most successful against the fighting welshman.". If not for the injured hand he knocks probably knocks Farr out.

    I dont agree that Louis had so much trouble with crouching fighters. He had trouble in the first Godoy match, but once Blackburn taught him how to face that type of fighter he completely dismantled him in the rematch. Watch that film again, Louis uses angles, uppercuts, body shots, well timed counters and just catches Godoy coming and and dissects him. Louis destroyed him.

    Louis may have under-estimated Tony Galento's punch a little and except for a couple of big shots was just torn to shreds by Louis.

    Coming to Louis was not the way to beat him. He liked to draw opponent's into his punches with subtle footwork. He hit you twice as hard coming in. Blackburn's teaching him the style of old masters like Gans, was built upon that premise, catch the other guy coming in. Nobody was better at that than Louis. Also Louis defense is continually under-rated. I have every film. He simply wastes no motion, he moves his head when necessary, he blocks punches very well, he gloves block jabs, he blocks hooks and body punches, he parrries and counters very well.

    As for the head to head match-ups named Liston, Frazier and Foreman. I think Frazier has the slimmest chance to beat Louis. Frazier was a relatively slow starter against top competition. It took him a few rounds to start "smokin." Louis would catch him coming in and take him apart. IMHO thias fight would be no contest with Louis the easy winner by knockout.

    Liston and foreman both have a chance to beat him. Foreman though, in his young, dangerous years, threw slow, wide looping punches that Louis fast, short punches would be coming inside of. Foreman never faced anyone like Louis. You want to talk competition. Before he faced Frazier who did Foreman beat? Nobody. Both Foreman and Louis are the two hardest guys to beat coming to them. Foreman because of his massive strength and inhuman power, and Louis because he is going to catch you coming in with precise counters. Don't forget Louis has one of the best offensive jabs in boxing history, perfectly straight, fast and accurate. He double jabs, hooks off the jab and uses it to set up perfect, short straight right hands.

    Louis much greater speed, short punches and far superior combination punching over either Liston or Foreman make him the favorite, but those are the two guys I give a chance to beat him in a slugfest along with Dempsey. But I just couldnt pick them. Louis had too many tools, power to equal anyone, speed to spare, perfect straight punches, masterful combinations and under-rated defense.

    -Monte
    Last edited by Monte Cox; 04-07-2006 at 10:06 AM.

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    i agree 100% monte


    * i did not know louis floored walcott in sparring, i guess we learn somethig new everyday.

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    THe Louis Jab Accolade

    Has always been a mystery to me.

    It looked awesome in the Baer fight. But I can't really recall any other bout of Joe's that the jab didn't look slow and or pawing.

    I've never been able to see the comparison to Ali's Jab for speed and Liston's for Power and Holmes' for both, in any other bout besides Baer. So the consistancy aspect of a great jab, IMO needs to be factored in when declaring a jab truly great.

    Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

    Hawk

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    I thought joe louis has perhaps the best jab in heavyweight history. it was faster than holmes, nearly as powerful as sonnys. holmes jab only had speed, while listons only had power but no speed. however joes had speed and power.


    even in 1950, joe louis busted up ezzard charles face with his jab

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    You are so right Elmer Ray, i agree 100% with you.

    Frank B.

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    A pawing jab can achieve 90% of what a ram-rod telephone pole jab can.

    The 'ol straight left is used as both a range finder and to blind the opponent. Ali always stuck that left in Liston n' Frazier's face to blind them from his sneaky right.

    A punch does not have to land to make one react. Consequently, Louis was taught to play with the opponents minds -- Jack Blackburn use to explain; "Make the opponent think you have bricks in your gloves".

    Louis' combinations set traps -- one hand led you into the other, and then in the blink of an eye, the opponent would be ripped apart.

    Louis made you lead, and then pay.

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    And other than the Baer fight

    Can anyone point to evidence of this faster jab than Holmes harder than Liston? List a bout and then point to a round where this jab exists. And review the footage first before making the claim. Making a claim that Louis' jab was this and that without citing anything we can lay our eyes on is a little pointless don't you think?

    I mention the Baer fight, which Joe showed a very impressive jab. But I don't see any other example of this. Pinklon Thomas showed a very impressive right in knocking out Mike Weaver, but that was about the ONLY time he ever showed a decent right hand. Based on one fight (or one punch), do we say Thomas had a great right? I want to see multiple examples of this great Joe Louis jab that was FASTER than Holmes' and More powerful than Liston's (hyperbole is only effective if you can point to something tangible).

    ANd Holmes jab ONLY had speed? I wonder what Ocasio thinks about that?

    My god, I am learning something new every day.

    Hawk

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    Ted

    What you broke down here, is indeed an effective tactic, but I don't think it necessarily makes Joe's jab superior than either Larry, ALi's or Sonny's.

    Louis, like a sal Sanchez, was an aggressive counterpuncher. Like Sal, he forced you to lead so he could counter. Obviously Joe did so with power Sal could only dream of. But the tactic was very similar.

    Hawk

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    Well,

    The word 'superior' just opens up a can of worms, vulnerable to any lurking agenda.

    I was explaining how a jab's intent can differ, and, more specifically, how Louis used his. It's all subjective, but if you want to swap trains of thought and personal observation...

    ...Ted Spoon sees Holmes jab as a busy jolt to keep the opponent in check -- it was used to keep everything nice n' tidy on the outside. It did a superb job throughout his career of out working/stalling fighters.

    For the majority the blow had Shavers on a leash, and many others without an answer. His admirers believe he had a great jab, but it was more of a mask, a defence mechanism to counter his limited arsenal.

    Liston found his range and then snapped your neck with his. Once he hit second gear, Liston was all hooks, but that jab was essential for hunting and then getting back on track.

    He used it to knock you off balance an then he pounced. Hands were not fast though. When he could not land on Ali his work ethic became very sloppy.

    Ali's was probably the most versatile; he pestered, blinded n' flicked with that lightning jab of his. He set up his right while going backwards, hooked of it, and left it in your face. Always used in different ways in conjunction with his movement to suit the pace.

    Louis though was like Eder Jofre, their jabs were so different to the other 3. They could snap them, but it came in the form of a regular paw as a means to carefully remove the armour before exploding.

    Louis had a great jab; fine form, balance and delivery, but he was often a figure of complete stillness. Like an Alligator he conserved his energy, gently parrying and pawing his way around a circling foe before they slipped up and it was game over.

    The jabs of Holmes, Liston and Louis were all related to their styles whereas Ali's use of the punch entered all genres.

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Why does Ted Spoon always refer to himself as Ted Spoon ? Is there a point to it ? HE Grant wants to know.

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    It seem to me the guy is in love with himself.

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    Hawk thinks

    That folks are confusing Combination punching with having a great jab.

    Ted I see what you are saying in how Joe set up his punches. But it isn't the effectiveness of the jab that sets up combinations that I whole heartedly agree are the best combinations delivered from any fighter I've ever seen.

    But Joe's jab, in and of itself, was not the equivilant of Joe's combination punching. And IMO not the equal of Larry's, Muhammad's or Sonny's.

    Pawing with the left to set up textbook, fast, killer combinations does not mean superior, as far as the jab goes.

    I think this is getting clouded here.

    Hawk

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    Well,

    I am with you on Joe's jab in that it was not the best of the bunch, for me, that was Ali's whose seemed to be able to nullify all opponents, to a degree.

    Ted Spoon was just sharing a book from his mental catalogue.

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    Re: Well,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Spoon
    I am with you on Joe's jab in that it was not the best of the bunch, for me, that was Ali's whose seemed to be able to nullify all opponents, to a degree.

    Ted Spoon was just sharing a book from his mental catalogue.

    Yes, but, Joe could knock out a guy with his jab

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    In terms of snap and delivery, Louis' was as good as any jab when it landed.

    Ali just seemed to make his count against everyone, Louis did not always need his i.e. the Schmeling rematch. Godoy was tamed via a constant stream of uppercuts.

    If Louis had the opponents measure they were not going to be there much longer.

  22. #112
    mike
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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    i realley like teds analitical abilities of fighters. i think ali had the best all purposee for his purpose.louis second. i see where frank is coming from also. monte a great job. ted- who may have been the best heavy to you?

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Ted Spoon rates james jeffries # 1 i believe

  24. #114
    mike
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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    elmer ray- thanks-did he give a top five

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    this was posted over at ESB


    Ted Spoons Top Twenty Heavyweights Of All Time:

    1. James J Jeffries

    2. Muhammad Ali

    3. Jack Johnson

    4. Joe Louis

    5. Jack Dempsey

    6. Lennox Lewis

    7. George Foreman

    8. Rocky Marciano

    9. Larry Holmes

    10. Joe Frazier

    11. Evander Holyfield

    12. Mike Tyson

    13. Sonny Liston

    14. Gene Tunney

    15. Harry Wills

    16. Peter Jackson

    17. Riddick Bowe

    18. James J Corbett

    19. Ezzard Charles

    20. Floyd Patterson




    my take: interesting list from a well knowledgable boxing historian like ted spoon

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Ted Spoon, is he a boxing historian?

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by kikibalt
    Ted Spoon, is he a boxing historian?


    i like to call him a boxing historian. he is very knowledgable and is an excellent writer.

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    this was posted over at ESB


    Ted Spoons Top Twenty Heavyweights Of All Time:

    1. James J Jeffries

    2. Muhammad Ali

    3. Jack Johnson

    4. Joe Louis

    5. Jack Dempsey

    6. Lennox Lewis

    7. George Foreman

    8. Rocky Marciano

    9. Larry Holmes

    10. Joe Frazier

    11. Evander Holyfield

    12. Mike Tyson

    13. Sonny Liston

    14. Gene Tunney

    15. Harry Wills

    16. Peter Jackson

    17. Riddick Bowe

    18. James J Corbett

    19. Ezzard Charles

    20. Floyd Patterson




    my take: interesting list from a well knowledgable boxing historian like ted spoon
    Having Holmes so low and Lewis above Frazier and Holmes is pretty sketchy. Jefferies at number 1? I know Callis does the same but Jim's career was just too short (with many close fights in which he was getting outboxed) to put him up there with Louis, Ali and the toppermost in my opinion.

    And I have never heard of a boxing historian named Ted Spoon. Me thinks that is simply a message board poster name playing off of Tim WitherSpoon

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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    i like to call him a boxing historian. he is very knowledgable and is an excellent writer.

    Spoon might be a excellent writer, but his top 20 of heavyweights of all time leaves alot to be desired

  30. #120
    Roberto Aqui
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    Re: Louis' Best Opponent

    Mac the Knife says no way Jack Johnson ranks over Sam Langford. You can't be known as the Galveston Giant and duck your much smaller most dangerous number one comp for all of your title career without taking a major hit on Mac the Knife's list. Maybe Mr. Spoon should consider sticking a fork in Johnson.

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