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Thread: Rubin Carter...Guilty or Not?

  1. #1
    gazot
    Guest

    Rubin Carter...Guilty or Not?

    A thread that may cause some friction amongst board members or even have legal implications. So please delete if necessary. But I gotta know or at least ask. Watch the movie and he's innocent. Visit the website and he's guilty. Who's telling the truth? Guilty or Not?

  2. #2
    timayres
    Guest

    Hurricane

    There may not be that much friction around here on that one, on previous threads when he's been discussed there were few who buy the movie's rosey depiction. I dunno.

  3. #3
    StingerKarl
    Guest

    Innocent

    Whoa..let's just chill out here.
    There is not going to be any legal implications here I assure you.
    This is a boxing board and we will keep it that way, ok?
    There is no internet typing drama here-just boxing talk.
    A movie is a movie-it is not an accurate depiction of events.
    Some of the folks I have talked to beleive he did indeed commit the crime for which he served time for.
    But who are they? Were they there?
    Personally; I don't think the fella had anything to do with it ever since I read his book 18 years ago.
    Just my thoughts.
    Karl

  4. #4
    Ronald Lipton
    Guest

    Re: Innocent

    There is little I can say here that I haven't said before.
    I know Cal Deal very well who took the photos of me the day I got Muhammad Ali to come with me and post bail for Carter in 1976. The photos of me standing with Carter and Ali speak for themselves. Much has come to light since then when I was an Investigator with the Hudson County Prosecutor's Office from 1971-76.

    Cal Deal's website GraphicWitness has a segue into his investigative version of the events, and much more.

    Mike DeLisa is positive he is guilty, Cal Deal a former reporter who interviewed Carter is also.

    The Canadians who took up the cudgel for Carter were abandoned by him with good reason. The Jack Hirsch book left out many facts and got many wrong. He never investigated fully and wrote inaccurate information about Ali's involvement for one.

    The movie is such total bullshit I never watch it. It caused a lawsuit by Joey Giardello for one thing, and I testified for Giardello for 8 hours straight in Federal depostions.
    After I was done, Beacon pictures and their obnoxious lawyer threw in the towel. If anyone doubts that call George Bochetto the former Pennsylvania Boxing Commissioner who was Giardello's lawyer. Joey G. sat next to me and heard me take them on for 8 hours of everything they could throw at me.

    I was supposed to do the choreography and kept all my correspondence showing I refused to make Giardello look like a bum and make it look like a racial robbery. I lost the job because of my stand.

    Within one week of my testimony they gave Joey G. $350,000.

    So, when I sat ringside with my Father and friend Jay on Dec 14, 1964 watching those two guys fight, never did I realize I would help to get one of them out of jail, and then the other win all that dough suing the other. Life is a bitch and then you die.

    Carter and I had a falling out, I could not take his surly personality after all those years of kindness to him. He would drink and if you caught him on a bad day, he would act like he did not even know you. He is a very strong man, has been through a lot, and the police on that case did some bad and illegal things, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

    The liberal dush bags who jumped on the bandwagon don't know a fucking thing about it. That alone makes me throw up my nuts.

    It is between Carter and God now.

    The movie was such a lie, such a contrived piece of shit concocted by the Canadians in a self-serving vehicle to enshrine their efforts which started out as a benign thing then gravitated to perversion and territoriality.

    Not one thing in the movie is true, almost nothing.

    I lived that thing with Carter and watching the move with the character of Lezra, who wrote the motherfucker a letter in crayon while he was in jail, and that was supposedly the catalyst which created penicillen in this saga? Please.

    Lezra Martin's former wife hates his guts, said in public he is full of shit, the movie was a lie, and all the people connected with Carter from the 60's threw up collectively when we saw it.

    Some day I will do the real story on it in a move with the Carter story just as the back story. It will be a Deep Throat masterpiece if any producer has the balls to do it.

    I'll write a book first.

  5. #5
    dnahar
    Guest

    Thanks Ron

    Wow. I wasn't very involved in this board before the crash, and your keen insights into this situation are very much appreciated Ron. I am learning a lot here on this board and my respect for the fighters has gone way up.

    On a side note, not only were the facts twisted, but I believe the bad publicity robbed Denzel Washington of an Oscar he should have won for his portrayal in that movie.

    And if there was one good thing about the movie, it was that ESPN tried to capitalize on the hype, dipped into their hoard of films, and showed fans classic gems like the Benton-Carter fight and 3-4 other Carter bouts.

    Deepak

  6. #6
    StingerKarl
    Guest

    Carter

    There is no way I would ever doubt a thing Ron said about that case.
    He was there during that time and was close to Carter, I sure as hell wasn't.
    I was just a kid then; but my thoughts were that I would think a professional prizefighter would settle differences with his fists, not with a gun.
    But then again; I don't know Carter and a lot of prizefighters have gone up the river for murders committed with a gun.
    I asked Bill O'Neill-former Olympic Trials Quarterfinalist and Boxing Illustrated West Coast Feature Writer in the 60's and early 70's and he says he thinks Carter did it.
    My opinion was based on reading the guy's book, but tha tis just from reading the book.
    I'll take Ron's opinion over anyone else's as again-he was connected to Carter during that time and we were not.
    Karl

  7. #7
    mikeydepaula
    Guest
    i know rubin carter good.i really dont think he did it. why would he he was on top of the world.

  8. #8
    Chuck1052
    Guest
    Within the past few years, Ruben Carter was
    scheduled to give a lecture at my alma mater,
    University of California at Santa Barbara. Of
    course, the college circuit for lecturers or
    musical acts is very lucrative. I didn't see the
    lecture.

    - Chuck Johnston

  9. #9
    gregbeyer
    Guest
    in the pre-hack stages of ronnies thread he made reference to some articles from his days with carter. i went to goolge and saw the pictures ron is speaking of. there is definite evidence as to rons association to carter. he is such a viable source of knowlege that it would be shame if he did not write the book.

    this is a case that has been unlike many other media splash events in that it has resurfaced more than just once and has minifested itself into providing more questions has time goes by.

    the main question of course is always ..did he do it. the next has to be how and why did this crime become so convuluted. the investigation of the case has been questioned vehemently. racism,cronyism, the questionable integrity of witnesses.

    then we have book and movie versions that too many credible people doubt. then of course the lawsuit brought forth by joey giambra. which by the way ron would be a great way to start your story. that grueling 8 hrs on the stand. a man commenting on the ridicules fabrication that was the movie while having flashbacks of trading punches in a dank gym with the real rubin carter. start telling the story from that point. try and show the many forms corruption takes in every aspect of telling a story for profit,making a movie where facts become a lost annoyance.

    i was not there and i will ever know what hides in the soul of the hurricane but i would love to see the story told correctly.
    greg

  10. #10
    HEGrant
    Guest
    Ron, forgive me but Im a bit confused by your post. Do you believe he did it or not ?

  11. #11
    GorDoom
    Guest

    My Editorial On The Movie & Carter

    I wrote this for the Jan. 2000 issue of Wail!, the CBZ Magazine:

    EDITORIAL

    RINSING OFF THE MOUTH PIECE

    THE REAL FREAKIN' STORY OF THE HURRICANE


    Now that all the fucking joy & happiness of the holidays are behind us, we now get to deal with the shit rain from, "The Hurricane" ...

    Okay people, here's the REAL Hurricane Carter. As you can see in the next post below, it's a relatively unspectacular record. Even more so when you consider that some of his fights -the vastly underrated Holly Mims for instance - were blatant fixes.

    The high point of his career was his 1st round TKO of then current welter & future middleweight champion, Emile Griffith. I saw the fight & he didn't destroy the great Emile as depicted in the movie. The fight was stopped after 3 flash knockdowns. Griffith was not badly hurt at all, he just got caught cold & never got his balance. Due to the three knockdown rule, the fight was (in my view), prematurely stopped.

    Carter was a rough, tough, technically sound fighter, with very good (not great) power, a decent mandible & average speed. His main problems was slick boxers. After a while he would get frustrated & basically give up on a fight.

    Two examples: First: The old cutie, middleweight champ, Joey Giardello, who knew every trick in the book & he threw it at Carter when they fought for the title. Most observers agree that Joey won by at least 10 to 5 in rounds.Carter at about the 7th round realized he couldn't do anything with Giardello & basically gave up on the fight & went through the motions in the 2nd half of the bout.

    Second: Luis Rodriguez, the great former welter champ, beat Carter twice. In their first fight, Luis weighed 149 pounds to Carter's over 160 at fight time. Luis, a consummate boxer, bipped & bopped Carter into frustration so absolute that at one point Carter tackled Luis, grabbed him by the upper torso & tried to fling him over the ropes.

    Denzel Washington is a great actor & the movie is very good as long as you view it as basically fiction ... Most especially the boxing part, which is pure bullshit. For instance, by the time Carter was arrested he wasn't even a contender anymore, having lost seven out of his last 15 fights!

    The movie may be powerful & Denzel may well win an Oscar, so might the film; but the Hollywood revisionism mind **** with the truth reeks. & the public seems to be buying it hook, line & sinker. I read a review in the USA Today that described Rubin Carter as, "A true folk hero" & a "warrior scholar".

    Puh-leeeze!

    After watching Carter on Larry King last night, I was left feeling that for a, "warrior-scholar", this guy is a real,fucking, jive turkey. Then again, I remember that this man endured 19 years of enforced incarceration ...

    The key moment for me, was when former talk show host, Michael, "My dad was a boxing manager, so I know the fight game", Douglas, started babbling about how he was in Philadelphia that night when The Hurricane was so outrageously robbed of the title in his fight with Joey Giardello.

    Rubin "Hurricane" Carter looked directly at the camera with a big, shit eating grin, on his face & kept nodding his head in agreement. But, Carter didn't have the stones to say anything, even after Larry King queried him for a response ...

    He knows better - there are too many people around who know what a crock of crap that is ...

    Which brings me to Joey Giardello.

    Joey was one tough dude. During the 50's & 60's he fought every top middleweight out there & that was a great era for middles. Hall Of Famer's like, Sugar Ray Robinson (W-10) Gene Fullmer (D-15 in a very controversial bout. Most ringsiders had Giardello winning comfortably), Dick Tiger (W-15, L-15) & Billy Graham (W-10).

    Giardello also had wins against real tough comp. To name just a few: Gil Turner, Johnny Saxton, Walter Cartier, Ralph "Tiger" Jones, Rory Calhoun, Joey Giambra, Holly Mims, Henry Hank & many more ...

    Giardello retired with a career record of 100-25-7 32 KO 1 NC & a reputation as a fighter that never ducked anyone in his long career.

    Giardello is a proud man & with a record like that, rightfully so. He may not rank with Ketchel, Greb, Robinson, Monzon or Hagler in boxing's middleweight pantheon; but he was a legitimate, lineal, middleweight champion, who won the title from fellow Hall Of Famer, boxing immortal, Dick Tiger. Tiger also fought Carter, knocking him down twice & beating on him like a drum for 10 rounds as he blew "The Hurricane" out ...

    Giardello's fight with Carter wasn't as dramatic but he won as convincingly as Tiger did.

    Like Sonny Liston & Leg-Iron Mike, Carter's main weapon was sheer intimidation. He looked like the baddest ass dude this side of Liston. But like Sonny & Leg-Iron Mike, when he faced somebody that wasn't intimidated he had problems when his 'tude didn't work & especially if he was facing a good boxer.

    That's when he usually ended up waist deep in the Big Muddy ... By the way, when I mention him along with Sonny & Leg-Iron Mike, I by no means intend to imply that he was on anywhere near their levels as a fighter.

    The Giardello fight is one of the key elements of the movie. In the film, Carter pounds on Giardello for 15 rounds & then gets outrageously robbed of the decision by a racist conspiracy by boxing's powers that be.

    Again, this is a very warped distortion of the truth. In 1963, Carter fought another top middleweight, Joey Archer, in an elimination bout.

    Archer was one of the last of the great white Irish boxers. Joey was a beautifully skilled fighter who unfortunately had no punch. Archer won an easy 10 round unanimous decision, totally befuddling Carter until the last round when he finally got tagged pretty good by a wild shot- but did not get knocked down.

    In the interim, Carter had his fight with Griffith & by virtue of his higher profile (as a bad ass) & bigger draw, the title shot was given to him instead of Archer.

    So much for racism ...

    In an article by the well respected boxing scribe, Bernard Fernandez, in the Philadelphia Daily News, Giardello is quoted as saying: "I'm not a racist, OK? There were four guys I could have given that title shot to. One was Joey Archer who was white. Another was Carter.

    The other two guys, I can't remember their names off the top of my head. But the fact is I picked Carter. I gave him the opportunity to be a world champion. The promoter wanted me to fight Archer I said, "No, Carter is ranked number 1, (this was due to his victory over Griffith, even though he had lost to Archer), he earned his shot. Give it to him.

    So what thanks do I get? For people to spread a pack of lies about me 35 years later? This is serious business here. I kind of feel my reputation is at stake here ... End of the fight Carter congratulated me in the ring. He wasn't complaining because he didn't have anything to complain about. I was better than him. I know it. He knows it. Everybody who was at the fight knows it. It's just too bad all the people who see this movie won't know it.

    If they can't get that fight right, how can you believe anything in the movie".

    It truly saddens the Ol' Spit Bucket that a stalwart boxing champion like Joey Giardello is having his career so blatantly misrepresented.

    If any of our readers would like to see for themselves, go to www.joeygiardello.com On it there is streaming video of his fights with Carter as well as Dick Tiger.

    Joey's son's, Paul & Steve Tilleli (Giardello's real name was Carmine Tilelli), have put up this web site in response to the lies & distortions of the movie. On it you will find a wealth of information on the venerable champ. Check it out, it's a very cool site.

    The Bucket could rant on endlessly about the falsehoods of this movie which extend beyond just the boxing angle. But I will spare you, my dear readers ... Let's just say that there is a lot of stuff in this movie which is pure crapola.

    Rubin "Hurricane" Carter probably/maybe was framed & not guilty of the particular crime he was accused of. But make no mistake about this, the guy was a real thug.

    The mind is wobbled by how in this movie, Denzel Washington, portrays a bad ass dude like Carter, as this semi-mystic, jailhouse Buddha. In the interview I saw with Carter there was no evidence of any "warrior-scholar", that I could see ...

    Hollywood revisionism is really an astounding cluster ****. I've had many friends call me up after seeing the movie who are not boxing fans & they are blown away when I tell them the real story of, "The Hurricane" & his boxing career as opposed to the claptrap of the film.

    & what's even more astounding; is that after I tell them the real details of Carter's life & career... They don't want to believe me - they'd rather believe in the movie & Dylan's song because that makes them feel all warm & fuzzy.

    The truth doesn't.

    The Ol' Spit Bucket understands that it's impossible to condense someone's whole life into a two hour movie. That's called "artistic license".

    Unfortunately, "The Hurricane" is more about artistic rape.

    If this movie is any indication, I gotta feeling that words like "truth" & "veracity" are going to become meaningless in the new millennium.

    As futher proof that perception is stronger than reality, the WBC in all their infinite wisdom have bestowed an, "honorary championship belt" on Carter.

    What's next? Induction into the Hall Of Fame in 2001?

    Lastly, on the subject of Carter I leave you with a very informative web site put up by Cal Deal. Deal is a reporter who has followed & written about "The Hurricane" since the 60's. This site is a real eye opener ...

    The url is: www.GRAPHICWITNESS.COM/carter/index.html

  12. #12
    GorDoom
    Guest

    RUBIN "HURRICANE" CARTER'S CAREER RECORD

    Rubin "Hurricane" Carter

    BORN : May 6 1937; Clifton, New Jersey
    (Fought out of Paterson, New Jersey)
    HEIGHT : 5-8
    WEIGHT : 157-159 lbs
    MANAGERS : Carmine Tedeschi, Pat Amato

    The Hurricane would be rembered today as a step up from a ham-and-egger had he not been involved in murdering a group of people in a bar in 1966. Although he has spent the rest of his life denying his involvement, even a cursory look at the evidence shows that he was involved. Contrary to popular belief, no court has ever exonerated him. He remains to this day a lying punk. For more info go to "Ruben "Hurricane" Carter: The Other Side of the Story"

    1961
    Sep 22 Pike Reed Annapolis, Md W 4
    Oct 11 Joey Cooper Reading, Pa KO 2
    Oct 24 Frank Nelson Philadelphia, Pa KO 1
    Nov 17 Herschel Jacobs Totowa, NJ W 4

    1962
    Jan 19 Herschel Jacobs Totowa, NJ L 6
    Feb 14 Tommy Settles Union City, NJ KO 1
    Feb 28 Felix Santiago Union City, NJ KO 1
    Mar 16 Jimmy McMillan Jersey City, NJ KO 3
    Apr 16 Johnny Tucker New York, NY KO 1
    Apr 30 Walter Daniels New York, NY KO 2
    May 21 Sugar Boy Nando New York, NY KO 3
    Jun 23 Ernie Burford New York, NY L 8
    Aug 4 Ernie Burford New York, NY KO 2
    Oct 5 Mel Collins Jersey City, NJ KO 5
    Oct 27 Florentino Fernandez New York, NY KO 1
    Dec 22 Holley Mims New York, NY W10

    1963
    Feb 2 Gomeo Brennan New York, NY W 10
    Mar 30 Joe Gonzalez New York, NY LK 6
    May 25 George Benton New York, NY W 10
    Sep 14 Farid Salim Pittsburgh, Pa W 10
    Oct 25 Joey Archer New York, NY L 10
    Dec 20 Emile Griffith Pittsburgh, Pa KO 1

    1964
    Feb 28 Jimmy Ellis New York, NY W 10
    Jun 24 Clarence James Los Angeles, Ca KO 1
    Dec 14 Joey Giardello Philadelphia, Pa L 15
    (For World Middleweight Title)

    1965
    Feb 12 Luis Rodriguez New York, NY L 10
    Feb 22 Fabio Bettini Paris, Fra KO 10
    Mar 9 Harry Scott London, Eng TK 9
    Apr 20 Harry Scott London, Eng L 10
    Apr 30 Johnny Torres Patterson, NJ KO 8
    May 20 Dick Tiger New York, NY L 10
    Jul 14 Fate Davis Akron, Oh KO 1
    Aug 26 Luis Rodriguez Los Angeles, Ca L 10
    Sep 18 Joe Ngidi Johannesburg, S.A. KO 2

    1966
    Jan 8 Wilbert "Skeeter" McClure Chicago, IL W 10
    Jan Johnny Morris Pittsburgh, Pa L 10
    Jan 25 Stan Harrington Honolulu, HI L 10
    Feb 27 Ernie Burford Johannesburg, SA KO 8
    Mar 8 Wilbert "Skeeter" McClure Toledo, Oh D 10
    -There was an error in a scorecard; The Ohio Boxing Commission
    changed the verdict to a draw
    Aug 6 Juan "Rocky" Rivero Rosario, ARG L 10

  13. #13
    bodyblow
    Guest

    top of the world??

    He was on top of the world? How so? Not in terms of his career which had pretty much run its course.

  14. #14
    GorDoom
    Guest

    "Hurricane" by Bob Dylan

    Pistol shots ring out in the barroom night
    Enter Patty Valentine from the upper hall.
    She sees the bartender in a pool of blood,
    Cries out, "My God, they killed them all!"
    Here comes the story of the Hurricane,
    The man the authorities came to blame
    For somethin' that he never done.
    Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been
    The champion of the world.

    Three bodies lyin' there does Patty see
    And another man named Bello, movin' around mysteriously.
    "I didn't do it," he says, and he throws up his hands
    "I was only robbin' the register, I hope you understand.
    I saw them leavin'," he says, and he stops
    "One of us had better call up the cops."
    And so Patty calls the cops
    And they arrive on the scene with their red lights flashin'
    In the hot New Jersey night.

    Meanwhile, far away in another part of town
    Rubin Carter and a couple of friends are drivin' around.
    Number one contender for the middleweight crown
    Had no idea what kinda shit was about to go down
    When a cop pulled him over to the side of the road
    Just like the time before and the time before that.
    In Paterson that's just the way things go.
    If you're black you might as well not show up on the street
    'Less you wanna draw the heat.

    Alfred Bello had a partner and he had a rap for the cops.
    Him and Arthur Dexter Bradley were just out prowlin' around
    He said, "I saw two men runnin' out, they looked like middleweights
    They jumped into a white car with out-of-state plates."
    And Miss Patty Valentine just nodded her head.
    Cop said, "Wait a minute, boys, this one's not dead"
    So they took him to the infirmary
    And though this man could hardly see
    They told him that he could identify the guilty men.

    Four in the mornin' and they haul Rubin in,
    Take him to the hospital and they bring him upstairs.
    The wounded man looks up through his one dyin' eye
    Says, "Wha'd you bring him in here for? He ain't the guy!"
    Yes, here's the story of the Hurricane,
    The man the authorities came to blame
    For somethin' that he never done.
    Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been
    The champion of the world.

    Four months later, the ghettos are in flame,
    Rubin's in South America, fightin' for his name
    While Arthur Dexter Bradley's still in the robbery game
    And the cops are puttin' the screws to him, lookin' for somebody to blame.
    "Remember that murder that happened in a bar?"
    "Remember you said you saw the getaway car?"
    "You think you'd like to play ball with the law?"
    "Think it might-a been that fighter that you saw runnin' that night?"
    "Don't forget that you are white."

    Arthur Dexter Bradley said, "I'm really not sure."
    Cops said, "A poor boy like you could use a break
    We got you for the motel job and we're talkin' to your friend Bello
    Now you don't wanta have to go back to jail, be a nice fellow.
    You'll be doin' society a favor.
    That sonofabitch is brave and gettin' braver.
    We want to put his ass in stir
    We want to pin this triple murder on him
    He ain't no Gentleman Jim."

    Rubin could take a man out with just one punch
    But he never did like to talk about it all that much.
    It's my work, he'd say, and I do it for pay
    And when it's over I'd just as soon go on my way
    Up to some paradise
    Where the trout streams flow and the air is nice
    And ride a horse along a trail.
    But then they took him to the jailhouse
    Where they try to turn a man into a mouse.

    All of Rubin's cards were marked in advance
    The trial was a pig-circus, he never had a chance.
    The judge made Rubin's witnesses drunkards from the slums
    To the white folks who watched he was a revolutionary bum
    And to the black folks he was just a crazy nigger.
    No one doubted that he pulled the trigger.
    And though they could not produce the gun,
    The D.A. said he was the one who did the deed
    And the all-white jury agreed.

    Rubin Carter was falsely tried.
    The crime was murder "one," guess who testified?
    Bello and Bradley and they both baldly lied
    And the newspapers, they all went along for the ride.
    How can the life of such a man
    Be in the palm of some fool's hand?
    To see him obviously framed
    Couldn't help but make me feel ashamed to live in a land
    Where justice is a game.

    Now all the criminals in their coats and their ties
    Are free to drink martinis and watch the sun rise
    While Rubin sits like Buddha in a ten-foot cell
    An innocent man in a living hell.
    That's the story of the Hurricane,
    But it won't be over till they clear his name
    And give him back the time he's done.
    Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been
    The champion of the world.


    Copyright 1975 Ram's Horn Music

  15. #15
    mikeydepaula
    Guest
    im not speaking for ron but my father frankie depaula gave rubin a set of pistols.that does not mean rubin did it

  16. #16
    mikeydepaula
    Guest

    Re: top of the world??

    why would someone who is getting a title shot go out and kill

  17. #17
    GorDoom
    Guest
    Mikey:

    Look at his record above again ... He lost 7 of his last 15 fights. He wasn't even near being rated. There was NO way he was going to get another title shot. By the time he was arrested his career had devolved to the point that he was heading straight for pugdom.

    Hardly on top of the world, just a name stepping stone for up & coming fighters. By then he was shot as a fighter.

    GorDoom

  18. #18
    mikeydepaula
    Guest
    true im just going by with what rubin told me. i agree with you. but friends have to stick together wouldnt you agree on that?

  19. #19
    GorDoom
    Guest
    Yes friends should stick together ... But an untruth is a lie no matter how you slice it.

    GorDoom

  20. #20
    HEGrant
    Guest
    Dylan and his song here are a perfect example of liberial, out of touch Hollywod at it's best. Let's make the piece of sh-t into a folk hero and blame the "man".

    When's the song about the New Orleans hurricane going to come out ? :rollin

  21. #21
    BDeskins
    Guest
    >>>why would someone who is getting a title shot go out and kill<<<

    Some people just make some terrible decisions in life. A boxer of more recent vintage that rings true to that is Ike Ibeabuchi, who seemingly had a very real shot at becoming heavyweight champion as well as millions and millions of dollars within his grasp, but his mental state turned out to be rather fragile and now he is spending several years in jail...Tony Ayala is another, who even more so than Ibeabuchi had the boxing world ablaze and would have fit it rather nicely along side of Hearns, Duran, Leonard and Hagler, but he turned out to be a really violent person outside of the ring. As to Carter, I don't really know much about him and the movie I have never wanted to watch because of the way that I had heard Giardello was portrayed.

  22. #22
    mikeydepaula
    Guest
    agreed.but i was only 4 years old when it happened

  23. #23
    Ronald Lipton
    Guest
    The graphicwitness.com page is very disturbing in it's content and documents.

    I am a very loyal person and dedicated much of my life to helping Rubin. Carter survived an ordeal that not many men could. He is intelligent and despite some fistic critics, I maintain he was an amazing fighter on top of his game, which waned with outside pressure, alcoholism, and mental disinterest.

    The KO over Griffith was NOT a three knockdown situation, but a two knockdown situation, with Griffith shaking like a reed in the wind. He would have been demolished if Buck McTiernan let it go any further.

    We all change for the better and for the worse. Life wears us down like water on a mountain. The abandonment of me in a time of need, a simple letter of help to a local judge in a simple assault case after a lifetime of helping him, is the act of a crazy man to me. The fact that he was on the front page of the Daily News after the April 30 1976 beating of Carolyn Kelly, his defense team member while out on bail is no joke to what it did to his case.

    Even then I stuck by this guy, and at times he helped me too.
    That is what friends are for. However when he appeared on national television with me on March 25, 1997 on the Chet Coppock show, telling a national audience about our time in training camp together and saying I was a great person etc, little did I know that only 6 months later, he hedged on sending a letter to a judge saying I was a good person, or even showing up just once like I did for him.

    The Judge and the lawyer were later disbarred and found guilty of professional misconduct on my case and others. The Judge for stealing and lying. I kept telling Carter this, that the same people responsible for hurting my referee license with the NYSAC, were connected to this phony case etc.

    He was either half drunk when I called him or just nasty and rude. Terribe temper and only interested in himself or someone he did not know at all, involved in murder cases like his. He abandoned his only son and left him in jail without aiding him either which was written up in the Patterson NJ press.


    The fact whether he was guilty or not cannot be arrived at unless someone reads the entire Graphic Witness documents, photos and statements. I am not interested in speculation, but my own common sense.

    I submit that before he went in jail, during and after that there is an inherent cruelty there and the ability to totally abandon loved ones, who may or may not deserve it in the case of his son. There is also distorted input and instantaneous violence lurking therein, combined with a preacher's lecture which he gives in normal conversation as he did on ESPN with Brian Kenny.

    After years of knowing him, it does not look normal, it does not sound normal, and the public personna he created comes over like a sham, to the people who really know what he did behind the scenes.

    We all have problems, and have made mistakes, me more than anyone I know. But one of them is not abandoning loved ones first or friends.

    When I look at what Cal Deal put up on Graphicwitness.com
    and read it thoroughly, I get a chill up my back.

    A lot of other people did too and that is why they picketed the Academy Awards and Denzell did not win for Hurricane.

    It is not that it is just a murder, it is that it is a triple murder of 3 people one a mother of children, by blowing her stomach out onto the floor of a barroom with a 12 gauge shotgun, and the murder of two other people who just were there.

    Not personal, not business, but a wilding revenge thing in a climate of racial tension.

    I pray to God I have not defended a guilty man based on the powerful evidence I saw on graphicwitness .com

    There are many people we like, or that are nice to us, that's cool, and sick people in our familie's that are in trouble with the law should not be abandoned because all life is sacred.

    But no one cares about a Dennis Rader because of the horror of what they inflicted.

    If Carter did this, he doesn't have to worry about people calling his number, getting an abusive or rude threatening angry man on the phone who thinks he is a media star, there are many people in Canada who think he was guilty.

    He paid his dues with a 19 year 7 month prison term. But he is still alive. Those people are still dead, and he comes over as an artificial media created personality, with dangerous demons still lurking in his facial expressions, short temper which are there to explode in private.

    Read the website and make your own decisions. I hope I am wrong.

  24. #24
    kenmore3233
    Guest

    Rubin Carter movie

    I saw "Hurricane"...it was a terrible, utter piece of trash of a movie. Bad acting, bad plot, and worse of all, based on lies.

    "Hurricane" is like the kinds of propaganda films communist governments would create in order to brainwash their citizens into believing things that are not true.

    I found the movie to be an insult to my intelligence. It was extremely manipulative.

    Any serious boxing fan knows that Joey Giardello's win over Carter was not in any way controversial. Carter was outboxed...plain and simply.

    Mikie DePaula:
    I'm glad you're on this board because your Dad was one fascinating fighter. I have always been awestruck at the fact that he dumped the great Bob Foster on his ass twice in one round.

    However, I've got to tell you that I disagree with your reasoning about Carter. Just because Carter was at the top of his game when the murders happened does not mean that Carter was incapable of committing them.

    It sounds to me like Rubin Carter is a sociopath.

  25. #25
    GorDoom
    Guest
    Again, Carter was NOT anywhere the top of his game when he got arrested. He lost 7 of his last 15 fights & drew one. He wasn't even close to being a contender when he got arrested.

    GorDoom

  26. #26
    BDeskins
    Guest

    Re: Rubin Carter movie

    I've been reading the documents on graphic witness, but I'll wait until I'm finished before I make any judgments as to what I think, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

  27. #27
    Ronald Lipton
    Guest

    reply

    Kenmore,

    Just as a boxing historical fact, I have the films of Foster V DePaula, and other DePaula fights. There was only one knockdown of Foster called. It was an incorrect call, as I played the tape in superslow motion over and over. Foster slipped and in no way was knocked down from a punch. A punch landed in his lower mid back as his feet were slipping off balance.

    He got up and knocked DePaula down over and over with lightning fast shots until the fight was stopped. Teddy Brenner the matchmaker said it was the worst mismatch he ever made. That is a direct quote.

    Frankie a great one shot puncher with the right hand only, not the left hook, knocked Tiger down twice in Sept 68, I was there ringside and it was a great fight as Tiger got up and knocked him down twice in the fight then went on to win the fight as Frank ran out of gas and could not hurt him again after the 4th round.

    The greatest must have been Charlie Devil Green's quick ko over DePaula in two rounds after being hurt briefly by Frank in MSG. It was exciting while it lasted.

  28. #28
    Ronald Lipton
    Guest

    reply

    I also agree with Kenmore in that the movie The Hurricane was an utter piece of childish trash. Denzell's portrayal of Carter in the jail cell going through a "Cybil" multiple personality thing was very good and well done, bravo etc.

    However, Denzell who came from an upper middleclass family, and has always been overly well fed and gravitates toward being fat in the behind went on a madman campaign to lose weight and get a partial set of frontal abs.

    His trainer Tony Claybon as a reward was miscast as Emile Griffith so badly it was pathetic. The guy who played Giardello was pathetic, the boxing choreography was out of a 3 stooges movie.

    The two fights Griffith & Joey G, were so embarrasingly choreographed it was nauseating. You tell me!

    The whole movie script was a fairy tale about Lezra Martin who was the adopted pet of a bunch of liberals who make liberals puke. He wrote Carter a crayon letter and sent it to prison and Luv is gunna bust me out followed.

    I hurled so bad I broke a fucking rib.

    The story line is so contrived, and the police characters are so one dimensional it is also embarassing.
    None of it shows the EXTREME violence of Rubin Carter, the EXTREME personality, electro shock treatments he received, a total bullshit fairy tale.

    It is so beneath Norman Jewison's talents to research it so poorly at the behest of the Canadians who wrote the book, and used it as a self serving vehicle.

    They leave out the extreme homo sexual territoriality of Sam Chaiton when it came to ruling Rubin Carter outside prison as their virtual financial prisoner, Carter's abandonment of him, Terry Swinton who used to put Carter up against a wall and search him for cigarettes
    (See Hirsch's book), and the horror of Lisa his former wife, who Carter married as a condition to have a roof over his head.

    This woman later left by Carter had admittingly slept with all the Canadians (see book) and was abandoned by Carter later as the worst hag-nag which was driving him more crazy, with her bizzare agendas in the hippy style commune he was forced to live in.

    Blind in one eye, having to sing for his supper, tuberculosis and other diseases tearing away at him he slipped into more and more alcohol abuse which made him extremely violent and dangerous.

    None of these things were touched on nor the beating of Carolyn Kelley his defense team member, which made the front page of the Daily News.

    How his eye was blinded by another inmate, his other muggings of innocent people as mentioned in his book,
    or how he threatened poor George Chuvalo's son and abused another man who gave him a place to stay.

    He used the man's phone to make hundreds of dollars of pay per sex phone calls and was caught by the owner, masturbating all day in his room while making the calls, sticking the guy with the bill. You doubt this, ask Chuvalo.

    If they made a real movie about how he let his friends go down while he was "busy" or drunk, it would have done a lot better than the Hurricane.

    He lost to Joey Archer, Joey Giardello, Johnny Morris, Stan Harrington, Rocky Rivero, Harry Scott, Luis Rodriguez twice, Dick Tiger, and many others.
    They should have showed the truth of that too.

    His favorite line according to George Chuvalo is this,
    when Carter meets a new woman he wants to seduce, his opening line according to several girls who complained about it, was, "I'm the man America tried to kill."

    See Ya, whoa, bye for now bro. This is the guy who doesn't want anything to do with people who helped him.

    Don't worry Rubin, no one is going to call you. You keep making that dough giving lectures. If you were a real man, you would give that money to the families of the victims.

  29. #29
    StingerKarl
    Guest

    Carter

    Well;
    I have talked to very few folks in boxing that think the man is innocent of that particular crime.
    I will say this about Carter: I have never met him and do not know the man-but he is a Great BS Artist.
    It has been 18 years since I read "The Sixteenth Round" but after reading that at the time I was convinced of his innocence.
    Outstanding tap dancer and finger pointer-bar none.
    Better than O.J.-and that is saying a lot as I think he is more articulate and intelligent than Simpson.
    He appears to be a Very Clever, Well-Read Man and a Master Manipulator.
    Very self-centered and cares only about taking care of Number One.
    A former fighter that is a correctional officer at the Texas Department of Corrections in Huntsville told me that Rubin was a "Jive Artist" and a "Jailhouse Lawyer" who is as "Gulity as Sin"-and this man that told me that is a Deacon at his Church.
    I will estimate that 9 out of 10 boxing folks I have ever asked about him are convinced of his guilt.
    Karl

  30. #30
    HEGrant
    Guest

    Re: reply

    Kep in mind the man was a life long criminal but according o him never deserved to be in jail at all except for the one time, the street robbery's, he could not lie off.

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