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Thread: Top 10 of Argentina

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    Top 10 of Argentina

    My Picks:

    1. Carlos Monzon
    2. Pascual Perez
    3. Nicolino Locche
    4. Horacio Accavallo
    5. Victor Galindez
    6. Eduardo Lausse
    7. Justo Suarez
    8. Oscar Bonavena
    9. Jose Maria Gatica
    10. Luis Firpo

    I chose Bonavena over Firpo because he was the more accomplished heavyweight. He gave both Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier their toughest fights. He fought 4 world champions- Ali, Frazier, Patterson, Ellis- and gave them all they could handle. He also beat more top contenders than Firpo, so he gets the nod.

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    I would insert

    Santos Laciar, no lower than # 3 or 4 on this list Surf.

    I think he is a vastly underrated fighter, who seemingly suffers primarily Because he was a Fly.

    Hawk

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    Santos Laciar

    Record for Santos Laciar:

    boxer: Santos Benigno Laciar
    Global ID 3731
    sex male
    birth date 1959-01-31
    division flyweight
    nationality Argentina
    alias Falucho
    residence
    birth place Huinca Renancó, Córdoba
    stance orthodox
    won 79 (KO 30) + lost 10 (KO 0) + drawn 11 = 101

    date Lb opponent Lb W - L - D last 6 location
    1990-12-21 Hugo Rafael Soto 114¾ 20-0-1
    Catamarca, Catamarca, Argentina L UD 10 10
    1990-09-15 Ruben Osvaldo Condori 118 70-19-15
    Presidencia Roque Saenz Pena, Chaco, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1990-04-27 Juan Carlos Cortes 117 35-24-15
    Laguna Larga, Cordoba, Argentina W UD 10 10
    ~ 100-95 | 100-93 | 99-95 ~

    1989-09-12 114½ Gilberto Roman 114¾ 52-4-1
    Great Western Forum, Inglewood, California, United States L UD 12 12
    ~ referee: Rudy Ortega | judge: Terry Smith 112-117 | judge: Vince Delgado 110-118 | judge: Dick Young 111-117 ~
    ~ WBC super flyweight title ~

    1989-04-06 Hugo Alberto Gomez 6-1-2
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1989-02-18 Jesus Antonio Moreno 9-5-3
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W KO 3 10
    1989-01-07 Raul Ojeda 4-10-1
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina NC NC 1 10
    1988-10-08 Juan Carazo 114 20-1-0
    Caguas, Puerto Rico L SD 12 12
    ~ referee: Arthur Mercante 112-117 | 115-114 | 112-117 ~
    WBC Super Flyweight Title Eliminator

    1988-06-24 Alejandrino Castano 2-3-1
    Justiniano Posse, Cordoba, Argentina W KO 5 10
    1988-06-10 Ricardo Escobar Baez 2-13-3
    Viedma, Rio Negro, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1988-05-07 Luis Alberto Ocampo 14-5-6
    Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina W KO 6 10
    1988-04-15 Ricardo Escobar Baez 2-12-3
    Pico Truncado, Santa Cruz, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1988-04-02 Jose Rufino Narvaez 40-18-6
    San Luis, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1988-03-05 Bernardo Manuel Mendoza 116 22-1-0
    Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina W KO 3 10
    1988-02-17 Juan Alberto Ivalo 5-14-3
    Mar del Plata, Buenos Aires, Argentina W KO 6 10
    1987-12-10 Jose Rufino Narvaez 40-17-6
    Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1987-08-08 115 Sugar Baby Rojas 114½ 28-0-1
    Tamiani Fairgrounds, Miami, Florida, United States L UD 12 12
    ~ referee: Abraham G. Bernal | judge: Carol Castellano 109-119 | judge: Ismael Quinones Falu 111-118 | judge: Jorge L. Velasco 111-117 ~
    ~ WBC super flyweight title ~

    1987-05-16 115 Gilberto Roman 114¼ 46-3-1
    Stadio Rene Thys, Reims, Marne, France W TKO 11 12
    ~ time: 1:10 | referee: Angelo Poletti | judge: Armand Krief 95-96 | judge: Giuseppe Ferrari 96-97 | judge: Bob Logist 96-97 ~
    ~ WBC super flyweight title ~
    Stopped on cuts.

    1987-04-14 Alejandro Vazquez 0-3-0
    Trelew, Chubut, Argentina W KO 2 10
    1987-03-21 Isaias Carvacho 2-1-0
    Esquel, Chubut, Argentina W KO 4 10
    1987-03-05 Jose Rufino Narvaez 40-14-6
    La Rioja, La Rioja, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1987-01-30 Hector Luis Patri 26-17-10
    Mar del Plata, Buenos Aires, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1986-11-08 Oscar Bolivar 22-10-2
    Estadio Luna Park, Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1986-10-24 Jose Rufino Narvaez 40-13-6
    Concepcion Tucuman, Tucuman, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1986-08-30 114¼ Gilberto Roman 114½ 43-3-0
    Pabellon Verde, Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina D PTS 12 12
    ~ referee: Ismael Quinones Falu | judge: Moises Sister 116-117 | judge: Tony Perez 117-111 | judge: Angel L. Guzman 116-116 ~
    ~ WBC super flyweight title ~

    1986-07-17 Alberto Ramon Pacheco 3-13-6
    Santa Fe, Santa Fe, Argentina W KO 8 10
    1986-06-08 Jaime Miranda 14-14-5
    Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1985-05-06 111½ Antoine Montero 111½ 23-1-1
    Palais des Sports, Grenoble, Isère, France W UD 15 15
    ~ referee: Stanley Christodoulou 146-141 | judge: Luis J. Rodriguez 148-142 | judge: Gordon Volkman 147-139 ~
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1984-12-08 Hilario Zapata 26-4-0
    Estadio Luna Park, Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina W UD 15 15
    ~ referee: Luis Sulbaran 147-145 | judge: Tony Castellano 144-141 | judge: Angel C. Tovar 146-141 ~
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1984-09-15 Prudencio Cardona 35-7-1
    Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina W KO 10 15
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1984-01-28 Juan Herrera 33-3-1
    Marsala, Sicilia, Italy W SD 15 15
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1983-12-16 Juan Carlos Cortes 22-10-8
    Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1983-07-17 111¾ Hi Sup Shin 111¼ 26-1-1
    Halla Gym, Cheju, South Korea W TKO 1 15
    ~ time: 1:19 | referee: Zach Clayton | judge: Gordon Volkman | judge: Rudy Jordan ~
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1983-05-05 112 Shuichi Hozumi 111¾ 20-2-0
    Sangyokan Gym, Shizuoka, Japan W TKO 2 15
    ~ time: 2:52 | referee: Chuck Hassett 9-10 | judge: Larry Hazzard 9-10 | judge: Ismael W. Fernandez 9-10 ~
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1983-03-04 112 Ramon Antonio Nery 110 18-0-0
    Estadio Chateau Carreras, Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina W TKO 9 15
    ~ time: 1:25 | referee: Nate Morgan 80-73 | judge: Harold Lederman 77-74 | judge: Luis Sulbaran 80-76 ~
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1982-12-18 Rodolfo Rodriguez 55-14-14
    Estadio Luna Park, Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1982-11-05 111¾ Steve Muchoki 111¼ 10-0-0
    K.B. Hallen, Copenhagen, Denmark W TKO 13 15
    ~ referee: Richard Steele | judge: Samuel Conde | judge: Marco Antonio Rodriguez ~
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1982-10-09 Ramon Horacio Albers 8-2-2
    Monteros, Tucuman, Argentina W TKO 5 10
    1982-08-14 111½ Betulio Gonzalez 111½ 74-9-3
    Hotel del Lago Casino, Maracaibo, Venezuela W SD 15 15
    ~ referee: Joe Cortez 144-141 | judge: Fernando Lopez 145-146 | judge: Al Wilensky 146-142 ~
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1982-07-22 Jose Antonio Gomez 2-4-4
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1982-07-08 114½ Mario Paniagua 112¾ 0-2-0
    Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1982-06-11 Domingo Santos Aragon 22-7-5
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1982-05-01 111 Juan Herrera 111¼ 29-2-1
    Carte Clare Stadium, Merida, Yucatán, Mexico W TKO 13 15
    ~ time: 2:35 | referee: Carlos Berrocal 116-118 | judge: Marcos A. Torres 116-115 | judge: Samuel Conde 116-116 ~
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~
    Herrera was stopped with a shoulder injury.

    1981-11-07 Rodolfo Rodriguez 54-12-12
    Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina D PTS 10 10
    1981-10-02 Miguel Angel Lazarte 38-17-12
    San Miguel, Tucuman, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1981-09-18 Ruben Osvaldo Condori 114 28-3-7
    Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina D PTS 10 10
    1981-09-04 Domingo Santos Aragon 22-4-5
    Monteros, Tucuman, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1981-08-22 Rodolfo Rodriguez 54-12-10
    Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina D PTS 10 10
    1981-06-06 112 Luis Ibarra 111¾ 23-2-0
    Estadio Luna Park, Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina L UD 15 15
    ~ referee: Richard Steele 142-143 | judge: Steve Crosson 141-144 | judge: Jimmy Rondeau 141-143 ~
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1981-05-08 Miguel Angel Lazarte 38-15-12
    Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1981-03-28 111¾ Peter Mathebula 111½ 31-5-0
    Orlando Stadium, Soweto, Gauteng, South Africa W TKO 7 15
    ~ time: 2:02 | referee: Stanley Berg 57-57 | judge: Robert Ferrara 58-56 | judge: Mike Glienna 57-57 ~
    ~ WBA flyweight title ~

    1981-01-30 Jose De la Cruz Lopez 3-2-1
    Mar del Plata, Buenos Aires, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1980-12-08 Charlie Magri 20-0-0
    Royal Albert Hall, Kensington, London, United Kingdom L PTS 10 10
    1980-11-22 Jaime Miranda 10-2-3
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 12 12
    ~ South American flyweight title ~
    Laciar vacated the title when he won the WBA Championship in March 1981

    1980-11-06 Federico Condori 3-8-2
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1980-08-27 Jaime Miranda 10-2-2
    Santiago, Chile D TD 8 12
    ~ South American flyweight title ~

    1980-07-22 Miguel Angel Velez 3-7-1
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W TKO 6 10
    1980-06-06 Adrian Daniel Roman 13-0-1
    Villa Maria, Cordoba, Argentina W KO 3 10
    1980-05-09 Juan Jose Brizuela 41-28-10
    Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1980-04-18 Domingo Santos Aragon 14-1-3
    Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1980-03-28 Ruben Osvaldo Condori 113 18-3-3
    Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina D PTS 10 10
    1980-02-27 Miguel Angel Lazarte 35-9-9
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 12 12
    ~ vacant Argentine (FAB) flyweight title ~
    Title vacated by Ramón Soria / Title delared vacant when Laciar won the WBA title in 1981

    1979-12-07 Federico Condori 2-4-2
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1979-11-03 Gustavo Ballas 27-0-1
    Estadio Luna Park, Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina L PTS 10 10
    1979-10-12 Hector Velazquez 6-6-0
    Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1979-09-06 Luis Edmundo Gomez 1-7-3
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1979-08-02 Miguel Angel Lazarte 34-7-8
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina D PTS 10 10
    1979-06-22 Juan Jose Espindola 0-3-0
    Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1979-05-25 Raul Eduardo Perez 25-23-12
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina L PTS 10 10
    1979-04-26 Jose Flores 0-0-0
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W TKO 7 10
    1979-04-11 Gilberto Lopez 2-22-4
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1979-03-16 Raul Eduardo Perez 23-23-11
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina L PTS 10 10
    1979-02-09 Juan Carlos Rios 7-23-6
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1979-01-26 Jose Roque Ibiris 0-4-2
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1978-12-14 Raul Eduardo Perez 23-20-10
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1978-12-01 Ramon Balbino Soria 29-0-2
    Mendoza, Mendoza, Argentina L PTS 10 10
    1978-11-09 Felipe Rojas 0-6-1
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W KO 5 10
    1978-10-21 Angel Lois Fernandez 7-11-1
    Estadio Luna Park, Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1978-10-06 Luis Adolfo Gerez 24-11-1
    Villa Maria Cordoba, Cordoba, Argentina D PTS 10 10
    1978-09-20 Jose Luis Lopez 2-2-2
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W TKO 4 10
    1978-09-06 Jose H Izquierdo 3-7-1
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1978-07-08 Hector R Barreto 2-6-2
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1978-06-02 Reynaldo Romero 0-11-2
    Realico La Pampa, La Pampa, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1978-05-19 Carlos Aguero 1-1-1
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1978-04-14 Ramon Balbino Soria 25-0-0
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina D PTS 10 10
    1978-02-10 Jose Roque Ibiris 0-1-2
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1978-01-13 Luis Adolfo Gerez 20-8-1
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1977-12-17 Enrique Hector Navarro 1-2-0
    Realico, La Pampa, Argentina W TKO 6 10
    1977-11-04 Jose H Izquierdo 3-6-1
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1977-10-22 Carlos Reyes Sosa 1-3-0
    Villa Carlos Paz, Cordoba, Argentina W TKO 6 10
    1977-09-30 Manuel Enrique Quinteros 0-3-0
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W TKO 8 10
    1977-09-09 Carlos Reyes Sosa 1-2-0
    Villa Maria, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 12 12
    Cordoba State FLyweight Title

    1977-07-08 Jose Roque Ibiris 0-1-1
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina D PTS 10 10
    1977-06-18 Jose Zarate 0-1-0
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W KO 1 10
    1977-05-07 Jose H Izquierdo 1-5-0
    Realico, La Pampa, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1977-04-22 Alberto O Martin 0-15-3
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W PTS 10 10
    1977-03-26 Alejandro Olguin 0-0-0
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina D PTS 10 10
    1977-02-25 Jose Flores 0-0-0
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W KO 4 6
    1977-02-05 Amado Chavez 0-0-0
    Realico, La Pampa, Argentina W TKO 5 6
    1977-01-15 Angel Pereyra 3-7-3
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W TKO 4 6
    1976-12-03 Carlos B Maliene 0-3-0
    Huinca Renanco, Cordoba, Argentina W KO 4 6
    Pro debut for Laciar

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    Re: I would insert

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    Santos Laciar, no lower than # 3 or 4 on this list Surf.

    I think he is a vastly underrated fighter, who seemingly suffers primarily Because he was a Fly.

    Hawk

    Thanks Hawk. I knew I was missing somebody. Wonder why fellow flyweight and countryman Pacual Perez was able to make a big splash on the world stage and not he?

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    Re: I would insert

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    Thanks Hawk. I knew I was missing somebody. Wonder why fellow flyweight and countryman Pacual Perez was able to make a big splash on the world stage and not he?

    bump

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    Surf

    I think the "merry go round" title changing hands in the Fly division did not help the respect matters of the divisions champions during this timeframe Early to mid 80's.

    But Laciar, clearly stood out among the rest and IMO brought respectability to the division that a fighter like Sot Chitalada later brought after Santos Moved up.

    For Laciar, I think the lack of a respected foil also hurt him. It would have been sweet if Santos had a Chandler to his Pintor or a Pedroza to his Saddler. Champs that never faced each other. But a reigning champ who garnered equivilant respect of the other.

    Laciar had titeist after titliest after titleist opposite him.

    I think it hurt the division and Him becuase of THEIR instability.

    Hawk

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    Re: Surf

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    I think the "merry go round" title changing hands in the Fly division did not help the respect matters of the divisions champions during this timeframe Early to mid 80's.

    But Laciar, clearly stood out among the rest and IMO brought respectability to the division that a fighter like Sot Chitalada later brought after Santos Moved up.

    For Laciar, I think the lack of a respected foil also hurt him. It would have been sweet if Santos had a Chandler to his Pintor or a Pedroza to his Saddler. Champs that never faced each other. But a reigning champ who garnered equivilant respect of the other.

    Laciar had titeist after titliest after titleist opposite him.

    I think it hurt the division and Him becuase of THEIR instability.

    Hawk

    That is kind of the tragedy of boxing, especially in the lower divisions. The politics seem especially rank in those lower divisions, where fighters win a fractional title then hole themselves up in their country for a decade defending it against second-raters. I thought Carbajal-Gonzales was going to signal the end of all that but it still happens to this day.

    Sanchez-Pedroza. Locche/Arcari. Nelson/McGuigan.....all fights that should have happened.

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    Gustavo Ballas

    Great picks, all of the above. But here's another name left off the list (which just makes doing a Top-10 that much more difficult: Gustavo Ballas.

    Gustavo was just 18 when he turned pro and weighed 106 pounds soaking wet. Although most of his early opponents were beginners of trialhorses, most of them outweighed Ballas by as much as 20 pounds. It was either take the fight or don't fight. He took fight. He took fight after fight.

    In his first 53 fights, only a draw blemished his record. When he was 21, he stopped Sok-Chul Bae in the eighth round to win the WBA Super Flyweight Title.

    In December 1981, he traveled to the backyard of Panama to put his title on the line against challenger Rafael Pedroza, the first cousin of Eusebio Pedroza, the WBA featherweight champion.

    In front of something like 15,000 screaming, partisan Pedroza fans, Ballas and his 52-0-1 record battled Pedroza over 15 of the fastest-paced rounds I have ever seen. And I saw it firsthand, as I, along with Sal Marchiano, had the pleasure of announcing this fight on ESPN. The temperature at ringside was 101 degrees. In the ring, because of the TV lights and the fact this was an indoor dome made primarily of cinder blocks and metal, the temperature reached just under 130 degrees!

    After 15 grueling rounds, Pedroza won the fight--and the title--on a split decision. In every round, I'd estimate each guy threw close to 100 punches (there was no Punch-Stat back then). One day I'll sit around and count the shots. It was phenomenal. How they kept it up is still beyond my comprehension.

    Ballas fought for nine more years, until he was 31 years old. Over that time, he won another 53 fights and lost just eight times. He finished with a record of 105-9-6, going unbeaten in his last 10 fights.

    He wasn't the greatest Argentine fighter ever, but in that 115-pound body was certainly a Top-10 placing amonst the greats of Argentine boxing history.

    -Randy G.

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    HA!

    I just realized a typo of mine in this thread:

    "It would have been sweet if Santos had a Chandler to his Pintor or a Pedroza to his Saddler. Champs that never faced each other."

    Man it was a SHAME that Pedroza and Saddler ducked each other during that 30 year gap!

    Dolt.

    Hawk

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Welterweight Jorge Fernandez and Light Heavyweight Jose Carattoli deserve a mention as possible candidates for the Top 10.

    CBZ contributor Martin Sosa Cameron did this interesting all time best by division ranking a few years back:

    http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxin...4-cameron.html

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Quote Originally Posted by broncano
    Welterweight Jorge Fernandez and Light Heavyweight Jose Carattoli deserve a mention as possible candidates for the Top 10.

    CBZ contributor Martin Sosa Cameron did this interesting all time best by division ranking a few years back:

    http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxin...4-cameron.html
    Yes, that was an interesting list. The only thing I disagreed with was putting Luis Firpo so high. Even though he is a beloved sports figure and the first boxing star in Argentina's rich history, his achievements are relatively meager when compared to his more accomplished countrymen. Oscar Bonavena was a much more impressive heavyweight in my opinion. He was in the ring with 2 of the greatest heavyweights ever(Ali, Frazier) and gave them their toughest fights up to that time, staggering Ali and flooring Frazier twice.

    Oscar gave hell to every heavyweight he fought, whether he won or lost.

    I would also rate Eduardo Lausse higher pound for pound. He was in the top 10 for many years and beat Gene Fullmer, which is a greater win than any Firpo ever had.
    Last edited by Surf-Bat; 10-05-2008 at 05:27 PM.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Indeed, Firpo was all punch and courage, and I agree Bonavena was an all around better boxer.

    The thing with Firpo is his larger than life figure and the mythical status he acquired in Argentina's sports history, so for an Argentininan to rank him second in the heavyweight list would amount to sacrilege.

    Firpo's icon status went further than Argentinian borders, though. When I was a child my grandfather in Peru told me how in Lima, on that night of September 14th 1923, people gathered outside the offices of a major newspaper to get news of the fight. Remember, this is before radio in South America, hence the news got there by telegraph. So there was a good 3 minutes of rumour and speculation when the crowd heard that Dempsey had been knocked out of the ring and the final news of the outcome of the fight. Just imagine the suspense!
    Last edited by broncano; 10-05-2008 at 05:43 PM.

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    Firpo-Brennan

    Did you ever see what Firpo did to Brennan? If Callis is right in describing the latter as a man who "would have been a top heavyweight in any period in history", it makes Firpo's achievement even more impressive. On his best night, Firpo was obviously a very dangerous customer.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    But don't forget that Brennan was at the end of the line by the time he fought Firpo. It was his second to last fight and he was well past his prime, whereas Firpo was smack in the middle of his. I would be more impressed had Firpo beaten a PRIME Brennan.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    You may well be right: I've never read about what happened to Brennan (in the ring) after the second Dempsey fight - other than his record, of course: nothing telling there until his KO loss to Miske; but that was after the Firpo fight, which I've seen.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Firpo was good, no doubt. But I still think that the record shows that Oscar Bonavena is Argentina's most accomplished heavyweight. He was in against 3 world heavyweight champions and one titlist(Ellis) and gave them all hell.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    Firpo was good, no doubt. But I still think that the record shows that Oscar Bonavena is Argentina's most accomplished heavyweight. He was in against 3 world heavyweight champions and one titlist(Ellis) and gave them all hell.
    I'm sold. In a list like this you have to say. We all know who #1 is, Now who's 2-10.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    Firpo was good, no doubt. But I still think that the record shows that Oscar Bonavena is Argentina's most accomplished heavyweight. He was in against 3 world heavyweight champions and one titlist(Ellis) and gave them all hell.
    Had Ringo bothered to train the majority of the time rather than chasing women, booze, cigars, and hitting the night life until dawn, who knows what boxing goals he may have accomplished?

    I think the only guy that ever got him into real World Championship condition was Gil Clancy for that Ali fight, but Gil laid down the law to the guy beforehand, before he took him on, and Ringo almost pulled the upset of the century off.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerKarl
    Had Ringo bothered to train the majority of the time rather than chasing women, booze, cigars, and hitting the night life until dawn, who knows what boxing goals he may have accomplished?

    I think the only guy that ever got him into real World Championship condition was Gil Clancy for that Ali fight, but Gil laid down the law to the guy beforehand, before he took him on, and Ringo almost pulled the upset of the century off.
    Charley Goldman thought highly enough about him to take Oscar under his wing early on in Ringo's career. He felt Bonavena had everything his boy Marciano had, except in a bigger, stronger package. Unfortunately, Rocky had 2 things Oscar didn't- discipline and brains!

    You're right. Oscar could have been so much more....

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    Charley Goldman thought highly enough about him to take Oscar under his wing early on in Ringo's career. He felt Bonavena had everything his boy Marciano had, except in a bigger, stronger package. Unfortunately, Rocky had 2 things Oscar didn't- discipline and brains!

    You're right. Oscar could have been so much more....
    Agree 100%.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Jorge Ahumada was a very good light heavy. Maybe not in the top ten but very good.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino1
    Jorge Ahumada was a very good light heavy. Maybe not in the top ten but very good.
    That's true my friend. If fact I only Gave Foster 3 rounds vs Ahumada. Should have been champ that night.

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    Re: Surf

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    I think the "merry go round" title changing hands in the Fly division did not help the respect matters of the divisions champions during this timeframe Early to mid 80's.

    But Laciar, clearly stood out among the rest and IMO brought respectability to the division that a fighter like Sot Chitalada later brought after Santos Moved up.

    For Laciar, I think the lack of a respected foil also hurt him. It would have been sweet if Santos had a Chandler to his Pintor or a Pedroza to his Saddler. Champs that never faced each other. But a reigning champ who garnered equivilant respect of the other.

    Laciar had titeist after titliest after titleist opposite him.

    I think it hurt the division and Him becuase of THEIR instability.

    Hawk
    Also Flyweight at the time was not very deep, Lacier has very few defining names on his record due to the weakness of the era. Also because he is from a lower weight in a modern era he is forgotten, we all remember Perez and Canto because they are legends from yesteryear, lacier is fairly recent and his legend hasnt been built up yet.

    Lacier definitly deserves a top five placing, one of my favrouite Flyweights ever.

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    Re: Gustavo Ballas

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Gordon
    Great picks, all of the above. But here's another name left off the list (which just makes doing a Top-10 that much more difficult: Gustavo Ballas.

    Gustavo was just 18 when he turned pro and weighed 106 pounds soaking wet. Although most of his early opponents were beginners of trialhorses, most of them outweighed Ballas by as much as 20 pounds. It was either take the fight or don't fight. He took fight. He took fight after fight.

    In his first 53 fights, only a draw blemished his record. When he was 21, he stopped Sok-Chul Bae in the eighth round to win the WBA Super Flyweight Title.

    In December 1981, he traveled to the backyard of Panama to put his title on the line against challenger Rafael Pedroza, the first cousin of Eusebio Pedroza, the WBA featherweight champion.

    In front of something like 15,000 screaming, partisan Pedroza fans, Ballas and his 52-0-1 record battled Pedroza over 15 of the fastest-paced rounds I have ever seen. And I saw it firsthand, as I, along with Sal Marchiano, had the pleasure of announcing this fight on ESPN. The temperature at ringside was 101 degrees. In the ring, because of the TV lights and the fact this was an indoor dome made primarily of cinder blocks and metal, the temperature reached just under 130 degrees!

    After 15 grueling rounds, Pedroza won the fight--and the title--on a split decision. In every round, I'd estimate each guy threw close to 100 punches (there was no Punch-Stat back then). One day I'll sit around and count the shots. It was phenomenal. How they kept it up is still beyond my comprehension.

    Ballas fought for nine more years, until he was 31 years old. Over that time, he won another 53 fights and lost just eight times. He finished with a record of 105-9-6, going unbeaten in his last 10 fights.

    He wasn't the greatest Argentine fighter ever, but in that 115-pound body was certainly a Top-10 placing amonst the greats of Argentine boxing history.

    -Randy G.
    Thanks for this Mr Gordon, very informative.

    The only thing with Ballas is that he didnt have any big name wins. He was a good fighter in a weak era IMO, when he stepped up he was always beaten.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    I often wonder what Juan Roldan might have accomplished had there been no Hagler or Hearns in the way. I really think he could have cleaned house at middleweight during the 80s. Hamsho, Minter, Antuofermo, Barkley, Olajide, Tate, Mugabi, Kalambay, Davison, Graham, Shuler, Scypion, Czyz.....I think he would have beaten them all decisively.

    In fact I think Michael Nunn was lucky that he faced a shellshocked Roldan who had just gotten brutally kayoed by Hearns. Imagine Nunn in the ring with the Roldan of the Hagler, Hearns, Kinchen or Fletcher fights.

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    Re: Top 10 of Argentina

    Roldan looked fine against Nunn imo, he just started to give up when Nunn was matching him for strength on the inside, raking him with viscious uppercuts to the body and generally treating him with smug disdain(the same mindset that would be his own undoing of course).He also took some massive right hands to no effect.

    I was never high on Roldan though.Perhaps the polar opposite to your view.To me, he was a step down from many of the unorthodox, bullishly strong yet somehow very technical and savvy aregentinian fighters of the previous decade...fighters who could brawl and box seamlessly.He Fought like a less skilled Gratien Tonna, another middleweight tank who was actually closer to the better Argentianian fighters in style.

    Juan was a great physical specimen, strong, big punch, lots of forward momentum, a good dangerous fighter for sure, but no real skills or depth to his style...no brain, which his better brawling countrymen had in abundance.Not much heart for a long gruelling fight either, which is key for his style if the opposition takes his punch.

    I could never see him having any kind of extended run as champ.the minute he has an off-night in intensity, that heart just isn't there to compensate, and the skills never were.He would always be in danger of coming undone against both the sounder ring mechanics and the bigger punchers.


    Laciar, Ahumada, Galindez, Monzon, Accavallo etc....Roldan can't hang with these guys for me.

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