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Thread: Zarate vs Ortiz

  1. #1
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    Zarate vs Ortiz

    This match up is very interesting IMO.

    My thoughts on Ortiz

    In the Castillo footage. I dont think Ortiz does too well against Castillo in all honesty. I think hes quite lackdasical defensivly compared to the Toweel footage. He uses a cross arm defence and headmovement, he looks to block the jab with his right hand or to slip to the side, using both manuevers he is effective at getting inside IMO, witht he slip he tends to throw a long left then fall in after it, with the parry he seems to let a combo go then fall in after it.

    The way he falls in is like Duran, the way he fires off his shots and under the cloak of them gets inside. On the inside he positions himself very well, he gets his head under his mans shoulder where his head cant be hit and he gets his arms down the middle so he can get his shots off and force his man to go wide. feet are placed well allowing him to move backwards or forwards easily and still being able to punch from his position.

    Another technique he uses to get inside is that he feints with his shoulders alot and looks to bring his man onto powershots using his feints than slides in after throwing them. His accuracy is also pretty good and his right hand is particular sharp. His body punching is good also, as he works it regulary to wear you down but can also take someone out with a well placed body shot, he works his right hand to the body particular well IMO.

    One thing that surprised me that I didnt remember was that he didnt mind being pushed back and actually did well going backwards whilst inside and did some nice work off the ropes.

    My thoughts on Zarate

    Hes a big tall, rnagy stand up boxer-puncher. Hard puncher definitly dangerous with either hand (especially the left) and to head and body. I like the way he keeps the pressure on subtly by being in front of his opponent by doing something either moving or feinting, he fights the whole 3 minutes. He also has a very educated left hand he is able to jab and hook and even uppercut with it whilst leading and can almost do anything off his jab, involving the left hand. The left hook to the body is beautiful, I love the way he whips it in and steps forward as he does it, really powerful shot.

    However, he is not the best judge and controller of distance, he is too often fighting at the wrong rnage, especially inside where he would do better if he got abit more room and leverage on his shots. Although saying that he mixes up his combos really well, he throws in hooks,uppercuts with either hand and mixes it to head and body. He is dangerous with every punch to any area IMO, a real banger. He also takes a great shot and has good stamina ('fighting' 3 minute sin the round demonstartes this and highlights it aswell as tiring oppoennts). One thing I dont like is he can be vulnerable straight down the middle to the jab which isnt a god sign from such a good fighter.

    Anyway, I really think he matches up well to Olivares, he can take Olivares bombs, hurt Olivares and outlast him. I also think Zarate vs Manuel Ortiz is a very interesting match up.

    So lads, who you got?

    Zarate vs Ortiz over 15.



    Personally I think this is the best match up out of any 'top Bantamweights H2H'. I think both guys have strengths and weaknesses that contrast well with each other. A guy Ortiz will come to Zarate to get inside and that to be is a 'no-no' but Ortiz has a lovely jab and can hit Zarate with it and then fall in, Zarate I feel needs to keep this at range but ruggle to do and probably fall into Ortiz's trap of going on the inside and pushing Ortiz backiz does most of his work on the inside going back where he can take advanatge of his good fooot positioning and come back with ice right uppercuts and bang the body with hooks. Zarate however gets the momentum coming forward and can mix up his combos well and with Ortiz's croos-arm guard may find a spot for his left hook to the body and as ortiz leans his head into the other guys shoulder a Zarate uppercut could do some damage if Zarate steps back.
    Right now, I'm leaning towards an Ortiz decision. Just think he might be abit too coy for Zarate in controlling the ring and distance and can win the inside battle, although a hard shot from Zarate could turn it on its head.

    Anyone else got thoughts on it?

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    Re: Zarate vs Ortiz

    In my book, at bantam, there's Eder Jofre & Ruben Olivares, then everybody else. But your match up is very intriguing. Too tough for me to pick because I can see it going either way though I lean toward Ortiz as long as he can avoid Zarate's killer bombs.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Zarate vs Ortiz

    Gordoom,

    I agree Jofre and Olivares are the top two Bantamweights. Although I would include both these guys in a top 5 probably along with Panama Al Brown, who really impresses me on the short clips I have seen, and the short amount of research I have done.

    I think out of these 5 guys, this match up is the most interesting.

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    Re: Zarate vs Ortiz

    It's certainly up there in hardest to pick.

    GorDoom

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    Re: Zarate vs Ortiz

    Manuel Ortiz

    BORN July 2 1916; Corona, California
    DIED May 31 1970; San Diego, California
    HEIGHT 5-4
    WEIGHT 110-137 lbs
    MANAGERS Noel Johnson, Tommy Farmer, Johnny Rogers
    RECORD 98-29-3 (52 KO, 1 EX)
    Ortiz was a great fighter; He could box or punch and was clever, quick and game; Manuel won the Bantamweight Championship of the World on two occasions and engaged in 23 world title bouts during his career

    He defeated such men as Harold Dade, Lou Salica, Lauro Salas, Carlos Chavez, Benny Goldberg, Tony Olivera, Enrique Bolanos, Luis Castillo, Larry Bolvin, Jackie Jurich, Salvador "Dado" Marino, Jackie Paterson, Theo Medina, Buddy Jacklich, Little Pancho, David Kui Kong Young, Joey Dolan and Jackie McCoy

    Herb Goldman ranked Ortiz as the #5 All-Time Bantamweight; Manuel was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1975 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1996

    *** AMATEUR BOUTS ***

    1937
    -Ortiz won the National AAU Flyweight Championship


    *** PROFESSIONAL BOUTS ***

    1938
    Feb 25 Benny Goldberg Hollywood, Ca L 4
    Mar 11 Tony Navarro Hollywood, Ca W 4
    Mar 25 Frenchy Savidan Hollywood, Ca W 4
    Apr 14 Serio Mendoza Hollywood, Ca W 4
    May 3 General Padilla Los Angeles, Ca TK 4
    May 17 Santos Lugo Los Angeles, Ca TK 4
    Jun 3 Sammy LaPorte Hollywood, Ca W 4
    Jun 6 Joe Rickey Long Beach, Ca TK 5
    Jun 24 Frenchy Savidan Los Angeles, Ca W 4
    -Some sources report "Hollywood, Ca"
    Jun 27 Reuben Ayon Long Beach, Ca TK 5
    Jul 5 Pablo Dano Los Angeles, Ca L 6
    Aug 5 Benny Goldberg Los Angeles, Ca L 4
    -Some sources report "L 6" in "Hollywood, Ca"
    Aug 15 Tony Navarro El Cento, Ca KO 3
    Sep 30 Richie Lemos Hollywood, Ca W 6
    Oct 21 Richie Lemos Hollywood, Ca W 10
    Nov 8 David Kui Kong Young Los Angeles, Ca L 10
    Dec 6 Bernie Reyes Los Angeles, Ca W 10

    1939
    Jan 2 Small Montana Stockton, Ca L 10
    Feb 1 Donnie Maes El Centro, Ca L 10
    Feb 15 Ken Martinez El Cento, Ca KO 3
    Mar 14 Jackie Jurich San Jose, Ca TK 7
    Apr 11 Tommy Cobb San Jose, Ca W 10
    May 1 Sammy LaPorte El Centro, Ca KO 7
    Jun 9 Jackie Jurich Hollywood, Ca L 10
    Aug 1 Bobby "Pancho" Leyvas Yuma, Az L 10
    Sep 15 Lou Salica Hollywood, Ca L 10
    Oct 17 Donnie Maes San Jose, Ca L 10
    Oct 26 Horace Mann San Jose, Ca W 10
    Dec 5 Cyril Josephs San Jose, Ca KO 5
    Dec 14 Elwood Romero Sacramento, Ca W 10

    1940
    Jan 30 Little Dado Stockton, Ca D 10
    Mar 21 Andy Vasquez Hollywood, Ca TK 5
    -Some sources report 3/22/40
    Apr 5 Jackie Jurich Hollywood, Ca TK 9
    -Some sources report "KO 7"
    Apr 20 Panchito Villa Mexico City, Mex W 10
    May 18 Panchito Villa Mexico City, Mex L 10
    Oct 9 Panchito Villa Mexico City, Mex KO 7
    -Some sources report "Monterrey, Mex"

    1941
    Jan 10 Rush Dalma Hollywood, Ca KO 3
    Feb Jose Robleto Calexito, Ca KO 6
    Mar 14 Lupe Cardoza Sacramento, Ca TK 9
    Apr 4 Carlos Chavez Hollywood, Ca D 10
    May 9 Carlos Chavez Hollywood, Ca W 10
    May 20 Jesus "Chucho" Llanes El Centro, CA W 10
    Jun 6 Lou Transparenti Hollywood, Ca KO 7
    Aug 8 Tony Olivera Hollywood, Ca L 10
    Nov 7 Donnie Maes Hollywood, Ca W 10
    Nov 21 Johnny Grady San Diego, Ca W 10
    -Some sources report "Hollywood, Ca"

    1942
    Jan 2 Tony Olivera Hollywood, Ca W 10
    -Bantamweight Championship of California
    Mar 6 Little Pancho Hollywood, Ca KO 7
    May 8 Kenny Lindsay Hollywood, Ca KO 6
    May 30 Leonardo Lopez Tijuana, Mex KO 10
    Jul 3 Elwood Romero Hollywood, Ca TK 6
    Aug 7 Lou Salica Hollywood, Ca W 12
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Sep 25 Bobby Carroll San Diego, Ca KO 5
    Oct 9 Nat Corum Portland, Or W 10
    Oct 30 Nat Corum Hollywood, Ca TK 6

    1943
    Jan 1 Kenny Lindsay Portland, Or W 10
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Jan 27 George Freitas Oakland, Ca TK 10
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Mar 10 Lou Salica Oakland, Ca TK 11
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Apr 2 Pedro Ramirez Hollywood, Ca KO 6
    Apr 16 Jose Robleto San Diego, Ca W 10
    Apr 28 Lupe Cardoza Fort Worth, Tx KO 6
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    May 26 Jose Robleto Long Beach, Ca W 15
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Jun 25 Tony Olivera Hollywood, Ca TK 7
    Jul 11 Jose Robleto Seattle, Wa TK 7
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Aug 13 Leonardo Lopez Hollywood, Ca W 10
    Sep 4 Filio Gonzalez Mexico City, Mex KO 5
    -Some sources report "W 10" in "Hollywood, Ca"
    Oct 1 Leonardo Lopez Hollywood, Ca KO 4
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Nov 23 Benny Goldberg Los Angeles, Ca W 15
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World

    1944
    Mar 14 Ernesto Aguilar Los Angeles, Ca W 15
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Apr 4 Tony Olivera Los Angeles, Ca W 15
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    May 19 Pee Wee Lewis Hollywood, Ca TK 9
    Jun 29 Larry Bolvin Boston, Ma W 10
    Jul 17 Willie Pep Boston, Ma L 10
    Aug 29 Enrique Bolanos Los Angeles, Ca TK 6
    Sep 12 Luis Castillo Los Angeles, Ca TK 4
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Sep 30 Carlos Chavez Hollywood, Ca W 10
    -Some sources report "Los Angeles, Ca"
    Nov 14 Luis Castillo Los Angeles, Ca TK 9
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Nov 22 Lorenzo Safora Oakland, Ca W 10

    1945
    Jan 12 Jose "Baby" Gonzalez Hollywood, Ca W 10
    Jan 26 Bert White San Diego, Ca KO 7
    Nov 2 Horace Leftwich San Diego, Ca W 10
    Nov 12 Jose Andreas Dallas, Tx W 10
    Nov 20 Proctor Heinold San Antonio, Tx W 10

    1946
    Feb 15 Eli Galindo Hollywood, Ca TK 4
    Feb 25 Luis Castillo San Francisco, Ca KO 13
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Mar 19 Carlos Chavez Los Angeles, Ca D 15
    Apr 22 Horace Leftwich San Francisco, Ca W 10
    May 25 Kenny Lindsay Hollywood, Ca KO 5
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World;
    Some sources report 5/25/46
    Jun 10 Jackie Jurich San Francisco, Ca KO 11
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Jul 12 David Kui Kong Young Honolulu, Oahu, Hi KO 7
    Oct 11 Carlos Chavez Los Angeles, Ca L 12
    -Some sources report 10/22/46

    1947
    Jan 6 Harold Dade San Francisco, Ca L 15
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Mar 11 Harold Dade Los Angeles, Ca W 15
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    May 30 David Kui Kong Young Honolulu, Oahu, Hi W 15
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Oct 15 Manny Ortega El Paso, Tx LT 8
    Dec 20 Tirso Del Rosario Manila, Philippines W 15
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World

    1948
    Apr 27 Joey Dolan Portland, Or TK 6
    May 25 Henry Davis Honolulu, Oahu, Hi W 10
    Jul 4 Memo Valero Mexicali, Mex KO 8
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Sep 28 Lauro Salas Los Angeles, Ca L 10
    Oct 29 Buddy Jacklich Hollywood, Ca KO 8
    Dec 14 Maxie Docusen Los Angeles, Ca L 10

    1949
    Jan 1 Jose Cardenas Mexicali, Mex W 10
    Mar 1 Dado Marino Honolulu, Oahu, Hi W 15
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Mar 29 Henry Davis Honolulu, Oahu, Hi L 10
    Apr 26 Lauro Salas Los Angeles, Ca W 10
    May 15 Baby Mickey Sonora, Mex KO 5
    -Some sources report "Guaymas, Mex"
    May 20 Pinky Peralta Mexico City, Mex KO 5
    Jun 25 Roberto "Baby" Coaury Vera Cruz, Mex L 10
    Jun 29 Roberto Carvajal Merida, Mex W 10
    Jul 16 Memo Valero Mexico City, Mex KO 7
    Jul 23 Tony Vasquez Tampico, Mex KO 4
    Aug 29 Jimmy Cooper Washington, DC L 10
    Sep 2 Chuck Wilkerson Chicago, Il EX 4
    Oct 3 Ronnie Clayton Manchester, Eng L 10
    Oct 26 Jackie Paterson Glasgow, Scot W 10
    Nov 14 Theo Medina Paris, Fr W 10

    1950
    Mar 7 Harold Dade Los Angeles, Ca W 10
    May 31 Vic Toweel Johannesburg, Trans, SA L 15
    -Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Nov 10 Jackie McCoy Hollywood, Ca W 10
    Dec 5 Eddie Chavez San Jose, Ca L 10

    1951
    Jan 26 Lauro Salas Hollywood, Ca L 10
    Mar 3 Bonnie Espinosa Manila, Philippines KO 8
    Jun 2 Tirso Del Rosario Manila, Philippines L 10
    Jul 17 Jackie Graves Los Angeles, Ca L 10
    Sep 3 Eddie Chavez San Jose, Ca L 10
    -Some sources report "Santa Clara, Ca"

    1953
    Mar 6 Manuel Hernandez Mexicali, Mex KO 6

    1955
    Jun 10 Manuel Hernandez Ensenada, Mex KO 4
    Jul 22 Memo Valero Mexicali, Mex KO 3
    Aug 16 Papelero Sanchez Mexicali, Mex KO 3
    Dec 10 Enrique Esqueda Mexico City, Mex L 10


    *** The Following Bout Is Reported But Not Confirmed ***

    1938
    Nov 15 Benny Goldberg Hollywood, Ca L 10

    Record courtesy of Tracy Callis and Matt Tegen, Historians,
    International Boxing Research Organization

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    Re: Zarate vs Ortiz

    The Cyber Boxing Zone Encyclopedia -- Title Claimant


    Carlos Zarate
    (Carlos Zárate Serna)
    ("Cañas")

    BORN May 23 1951; Tepito, Mexico
    HEIGHT 5-8
    WEIGHT 116 /2 - 127 lbs
    MANAGER Cuyo Hernandez
    TRAINER Jorge Zarate
    Zarate was a puncher deluxe; He was a power hitter who waxed the best of 'em with his natural swings; During his career, he scored 63 knockouts in 70 bouts and won the WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World

    Carlos defeated such men as Alfonso Zamora, Danilo Batista, Alberto Davila, Andres Hernandez, Paul Ferreri, Rodolfo Martinez, Nestor Carlos Jiminez, Benicio Segundo Sosa and Orlando Amores

    Herb Goldman ranked Zarate as the #2 All-Time Bantamweight; Carlos was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1994 and the World Boxing Hall of Fame in 1996


    1970
    Feb 2 Luis Castaneda Cuernavaca, Mexico KO 3
    Mar 2 Jose Luis Pavon Cuernavaca, Mexico KO 1
    -Some sources report "KO 2" at "Acapulco, Mexico"
    Costenito Sotelo Villahermosa, Mexico KO 2
    -Some sources report "Acapulco, Mexico"
    Nov 17 Nuno Temix Villahermosa, Mexico TK 3
    Dec 18 Alfredo Perez Acapulco, Mexico KO 2

    1971
    Feb 15 Antonio Lucas Cuernavaca, Mexico KO 3
    Mar 20 Fermin Ramos Toluca, Mexico KO 2
    May 5 Ramon Pinedo Cuernavaca, Mexico KO 2
    Aug 7 Julio Martinez Morelia, Mexico KO 2
    Nov 26 Victor Nava Acapulco, Mexico KO 3

    1972
    Jan 28 Emiliano Mayoral Acapulco, Mexico TK 3
    -Some sources report 1/28/71
    Feb 7 Jose Luis Gonzalez Tampico, Mexico KO 2
    Mar 19 Jose Luis Morales Mexico City, Mexico TK 2
    Aug 19 Jesus Escobedo Monterrey, Mexico KO 2
    Oct 8 Arturo Patino Madero, Mexico KO 2
    Oct 31 Armando Carrasco Villahermosa, Mexico KO 2
    Dec 3 Juan "Chilango" Perez La Paz, Mexico KO 2

    1973
    Jun 2 Juan "Chilango" Perez La Paz, Mexico KO 2
    Jul 12 Francisco "Sugar" Pino Cuernavaca, Mexico KO 2
    -Some sources report 1970
    Aug 21 Alberto Torres Tijuana, Mexico TK 5
    Oct 2 Antonio Castaneda Tijuana, Mexico TK 9
    Nov 1 Eduardo Miranda Tijuana, Mexico KO 5
    Dec 11 Sixto Perez Tijuana, Mexico KO 2

    1974
    Jan 30 Victor Ramirez Mexico City, Mexico W 10
    Feb 22 Carlos Armenta Matamoros, Mexico KO 1
    Apr 9 Alfonso Ibarra Tijuana, Mexico KO 2
    May 3 Chamaco Limon Monterrey, Mexico KO 3
    May 25 Juan Ordonez Mexico City, Mexico KO 3
    Aug 3 Magallo Lozado Mexico City, Mexico TK 5
    Oct 26 Francisco Cruz Mexicali, Mexico TK 2
    -Some sources report 10/27/74
    Nov 23 James Martinez Inglewood, Ca TK 7

    1975
    Feb 4 Alberto Cabanig Victoria, Mexico TK 4
    Mar 14 Joe Guevara Inglewood, Ca TK 4
    Jun 20 Orlando Amores Inglewood, Ca KO 3
    Aug 16 Jose Sanchez Mexico City, Mexico TK 3
    Sep 20 Benicio Sosa Inglewood, Ca TK 4
    Oct 11 Jorge Torres Guadalajara, Mexico TK 9
    Dec 7 Nestor Carlos Jimenez Mexicali, Mexico KO 2

    1976
    Mar 27 Cesar Deciga Monterrey, Mexico TK 4
    -Some sources report 3/29/76
    May 8 Rodolfo Martinez Inglewood, Ca KO 9
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Jun 26 Felix Llanos Mexicali, Mexico KO 2
    Aug 2 Antonio Paredes Chihuahua, Mexico TK 2
    Aug 28 Paul Ferreri Inglewood, Ca TK 12
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Nov 13 Waruinge Nakayama Culiacan, Mexico KO 4
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World

    1977
    Feb 5 Fernando Cabanella Mexico City, Mexico TK 3
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Apr 23 Alfonso Zamora Inglewood, Ca TK 4
    Oct 29 Danilo Batista Inglewood, Ca KO 6
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Dec 2 Juan Francisco Rodriguez Madrid, Spain TK 5
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World

    1978
    Feb 25 Alberto Davila Inglewood, Ca TK 8
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Apr 22 Andres Hernandez San Juan, Puerto Rico TK 13
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Jun 9 Emilio Hernandez Las Vegas, Nv KO 4
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World
    Sep 30 Rudy Gonzalez Matamoros, Mexico TK 4
    Oct 28 Wilfredo Gomez San Juan, Puerto Rico LT 5
    -WBC Super Bantamweight Championship of the World

    1979
    Mar 10 John Mensah Kpalongo Inglewood, Ca KO 3
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World
    May 1 Celso Chavez Houston, Tx TK 5
    Jun 3 Lupe Pintor Las Vegas, Nv L 15
    -WBC Bantamweight Championship of the World

    1986
    Feb 25 Adam Garcia Inglewood, Ca W 4
    Apr 12 Jose De La Dora Zacapu, Mexico KO 3
    May 5 Hector Napoles Mexico City, Mexico KO 2
    May 23 Jesse Muniz Chicago, Il W 10
    Jul 19 Alejandro Garcia Juarez, Mexico KO 2
    Sep 13 Gerardo Esparza Guadaljara, Mexico KO 5
    Nov 21 Eddie Rodriguez San Jose, Ca TK 3
    Dec 13 Alex Galvan Fresno, Ca TK 7

    1987
    Feb 20 Francis Childs San Jose, Ca KO 4
    May 5 John Boyd Los Angeles, Ca TK 5
    Jun 19 Tony Montoya San Jose, Ca KO 3
    Aug 15 Richard Savage Mexico City, Mexico TK 5
    Oct 16 Jeff Fenech Sydney, NSW, Australia TL 4
    -WBC Super Bantamweight Championship of the World

    1988
    Feb 29 Daniel Zaragoza Inglewood, Ca LT 10
    -WBC Super Bantamweight Championship of the World

    Record courtesy of Tracy Callis, Historian, International Boxing Research Organization

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