Most stupid strategies EVER !!!

[HEGrant]

I recently rewatched Ali/Foreman and have to say that Foreman fought the stupidest fight I ever saw a top fighter fight...he was the only man in the arena or watching that did not catch on to what he was doing to himself...knowing Foreman as we do today makes it even more painful...

Does any other suicidal strategy of this magnitude come to mind ? I cannot think of a larger self destruction than Foreman/Ali, can you ?

[gregbeyer]

sharbay mitchells second fight against kostya. facing a fighter that was coming off a long lay off he rushed k.t. giving him the best opportunity he could have asked for.
greg

[Roberto Aqui]

It would not have been stupid had George just caught Ali one more time when he had Ali out on his feet.

By drying George out two days before the fight, Saddler guaranteed his meanness AND his lack of stamina. George had gotten used to fighting in that specialized zone that he dominated. The only time he ever struggled was against Peralta who was not as powerful as Ali turned out to be. Even if there had been a back up plan, George was so exhausted, stubborn and pissed off that he couldn't implement it.

As a former construction worker I know what it's like to be dehydrated, hot, and overworked in the summer. You really get surly and mad and it doesn't matter if King Kong is pissing you off, you just go off and let the chips fall where they may.

[HEGrant]

That's fine but George was not a construction worker...George was a olympic gold metal winning, undefeated heavyweight champion of the world who abanded his jab as well as the superior style he used to win most of his big fights and simply fought as if he were in the ring with the heavy bag. He did not adapt one 1% when he saw that Ali was playing him. While he did connect once or twice in the first two rounds, he was clearly getting more wild and losing steam by the punch. Never once did he try and switch gears. It was pathetic.

Roberto, are you saying you feel this was the best fight you George was capable of fighting ?

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[[[[Roberto, are you saying you feel this was the best fight you George was capable of fighting ? ]]]]]]]
============================

No, I'm saying he was hot, tired, and dehydrated before ever stepping in the ring, was fed up with being held hostage in a country he hated, and just let it all hang out.

I would remind you that he claims he was drugged by Saddler with a small bottle of water which he wasn't used to receiving before a fight. I thought of that the first time I saw the fight and saw him look so uncoordinated and crude in the early going. Years later I read his bio and found out he thought he was drugged.

I don't know if he was or was just feeling extraordinary effects of the strangest ring conditions in heavyweight history that all seemed to be aligned against him.

I think he would have KOed Ali in the rematch which is why the rematch was never made. Ali flat out could never duplicate those conditions again.

[four oclock]

I agree with Agui. Too many questions surround that fight and Ali never did give him a rematch. His career post-Foreman was carefully choreographed to keep the "Greatest" pistons pumping so to speak...

[starlingstomp]

Wilfredo Gomez kamikaze first round attack on Sanchez.

Lionel Rose deciding to rough up Oivares instead of using his legs like he did with Harada.

[gregbeyer]

gomez and rose were meat regardless.

i would have liked to have seen a foreman- ali rematch in the states.

roberto...i used to be a pissed off construction worker too. many times up 40 or 50 floors i would forgo my leathers in the brutal,smoggy heat of L.A. and weld without them. i still have the burn scars from those days. better picture of you now.thanx.
greg

[JLP 6]

Corrales inside wars with Castillo. He'll probably do it again.

[greek1237]

how about Moore rideing the ropes with Rocky Marciano hopeing the Rock would run out of gas???

Sure its a early rope a dope, but I think If Moore was watching the Charles fight, he may have 2nd thoughts on useing this tactic?

[beddows]

Didn't Lou Nova use yoga in training for Joe Louis?

[HEGrant]

I never heard him say in the past twenty years that he was drugged by anyone. That was complete sour grapes after the loss. He has long taken sole crdit for the loss. He often refers to himself as the dope in rope a dope.

I don't buy the excuses your giving George. Ali was 8 years older and it was just as hot for him. Ali was just as sick of having to stay in Zaire but made the best of it. Are you saying he took a dive when you wrote he just said the hell with it ?

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[[[I don't buy the excuses your giving George. Ali was 8 years older and it was just as hot for him. Ali was just as sick of having to stay in Zaire but made the best of it. Are you saying he took a dive when you wrote he just said the hell with it ? ]]]]]]]]]
=====================

Dude, listen up, Foreman wasn't allowed to spar for the month leading up to the fight except for maybe a few days before the fight. He said he was drugged in his bio. READ it. In the end he accepts responsibility for the loss and says the better man won. He makes no bones about wanting the rematch.

It was a poor fight for him. Not unlike Ali's Cooper, Jones, and Norton fights. It happens. In the end he's proven himself with the most career wins of any champ but Jack Johnson, the most KOs of any heavy champ, and unlike Johnson he was fighting and beating top comp when he finally hung em up. So he lost the Ali fight? At least he never lost a Spinks fight.

[HEGrant]

I'm just asking you to clarify what you wrote.

Does he still say he lost because he was drugged ? If so, then how does he take responsibility for the loss ? Is he saying the drugs did not effect him ?

My understanding was that he did not spar as much to insure he would not reopen the cut he received that caused the delay.

Are you saying you think he lost due to drugging or that Ali legitimately beat him ?

[GorDoom]

Big George cut down on his sparring because of the cut that postponed the fight. & nobody wanted another postponement.

Period.

As to the drugging since his bio George has more than once categorically said that he wasn't drugged & it was just an excuse & that Ali beat him fair & square because he fought a dumb fight.

Period.

Why does it always have to be a conspiracy when it comes to Ali? The constant denigration of his feats is really bullshit. No, he wasn't perfect by any means - as a fighter or a man - but show me anybody that was better this side of Joe Louis ...

GorDoom

[HEGrant]

I have to tell you, I was more than a bit jaded about Ali...for starters, most of the Ali I saw was the post Frazier 3 Ali...before that I was just way too yong to see the prime Ali.the short clips from his prime never sold me....that plus the bad parts of his personality, the manipulations and the media hype led me to simply not get how exceptional he really was...

In the last few months I have TVOED many of the Ali bouts from Classic...I'm talking entire fights from the 60's...I have now, recently watch many of his entire fights such as Patterson 1, Williams, Terrell, Chavalo 1, Folley, Mldenberger, London...after watching him in his prime I have to say the guy was absolutely exceptional...maybe really the best bar none...

I cannot overstate how devestating the man was ...in addition, we all know he was just entering his prime when he lost his best years to the draft...his size, speed, strength (highly underated) , power (also underated), chin, stamina and heart combined with his exceptional size make him my pick over anyone.

The most amazing thing to me about Ali was how after the huge layoff he managed to put up as great a fight as he managed against Frazier the first time out. That Joe was amazing himself and to see an Ali just six months and two fights back in there in such a big fight dishing out as much as he did and taking what he took is possibly his biggest accomplishment.

The reason I mention the Foreman fight is because I feel it was such an incredible performance by Ali. I was always a Louis #1 guy and while I still love Joe, I simply think Ali would have outpointed him..just too fast, and too good.

[Walker Smith]

One thing about that Foreman-Ali fight. Without that fight, I honestly believe people today would consider Ali-Frazier III to be just another fight between two past-their-prime ex-champs and Ali's status as the greatest is not nearly as secured.

Ali did a lot to put himself at the top of most people's all-time lists. Most of all, he did it in the ring against the best competition from 1960 to 1975.

[apollack]

George was never a brilliant boxer. He was a clubber with fair skill, but certainly not the speed or ring generalship or experienced knowledge of an Ali. Just watch his Olympic fights. He was as raw as hell but still won gold simply by his superior size and strength. Perhaps the most physically talented champion of all time. Ali outsmarted him and big George believed so much in his power and ability to knock out Ali that he fought the wrong fight.

[Dragnet 69]

Tito vs Winky Wright. Moving the wrong way and failing to make any adjustments. His corner not giving any technical advice and apparently poor preparation to fight a lefty.

[HEGrant]

Apollack, no question there except your are leaving out the progress he did make...the man (Foreman) had an exceptional jab...when he used it he was a completely different fighter...in the Ali bout he basically abanded it...the few times he used it in the early rounds he was able to drive Ali back hard...in addition, his ability to cut off the ring and blast away from side to side was ignored..instead, he played right into Ali's trap of standing directly in front of Ali , losing the leverage and power of his blows...

[GorDoom]

Dragnet:

Your Tito-Winky analogy was spot on. What were Tito & his lack of brain trust thinking? For a world class fighter he fought about the dumbest fight since Foreman-Ali.

GorDoom

[Hagler04]

When it comes down to it, pushing aside Saddler and Foreman's stamina, getting drugged etc. George lost that fight for one primary reason . .

He neglected his best weapon, the left jab.

Never seen a fighter, who had just previously had demolished Chuvalo and Frazier with the left, would completly ignore it and just wail away haymakers with both hands. Very stupid.

Hagler vs Sugar Ray anyone? Marvin those first 4 rounds was just dumbfounding to watch. Also Duran vs Leonard . . .you don't sit on the inside with hands of stone.

[HEGrant]

Thank you Hagler...that is the point I have been driving through on this thread that is being ignored...George had a very effective , hard jab when he used it...he completely neglected it in the Ali bout.

[Ronald Lipton]

Good thread, very interesting.

I have one obscure one that I remember had my jaw dropping in amazement. I saw Henry Clark, rush across the ring trying a Lloyd Honeyghan move, to catch and attack Charles Sonny Liston in their fight in the first round.

It did not do anything but piss off Liston who gave him a pounding.

Also Carter not attacking Giardello with all he had in his home town of Philly to make sure the only crack he got at the title paid off.

Just a lethargic slow no verve effort to pound the old champ who kept turning him and feinting him out.

I thought one of the worst mistakes I ever saw was when the tough but limited Joe Micelli, a big welter signed his name on the contract to fight Gene Fullmer who wanted to kill him from jump street for knocking out his brother Jay.

From the second the bell rang, it was the most one sided beating I have ever seen and I still cringe from the brutality of it and the 100% inability of Joe, who I like very much, to hurt a guy who seemed 3 times as strong.
Left him for dead with an overhand 3 stooges right hand wallop that would have crushed a horse. Almost killed him.

Did anyone else see that film, it is just incredible really
as Joe was no cupcake by a longshot. Fullmer was some animal like I have been saying for years. Beyond strong.

[JLP 6]

I have to disagree with the thought that Foreman did the wrong thing. I think it was Ali who had the wrong strategy. But it worked anyway.

Foreman did what he was suppose to do. Get Ali to the ropes and try to knock him out. That part of the plan went great. Ali however got away from most of the hard shots by leaning deep into the ropes and covering up.

I think Ali should never have took that much punishment.

[pendleton23]

How about Gatti trying to box with Mayweather?

[Dragnet 69]

"I think Ali should never have took that much punishment."

I don't think Ali got hit cleanly very often in that fight. He IMO either blocked most of the punches or negated the power by holding George in close. Ali used to train often off the ropes throughout his career and knew what he was doing. He often said long before the fight that Foreman telegraphed his punches and were wide. George certainly could have fought smarter but Ali had to much of a skill/talent advantage. Foreman would always have problems with high talent/skill boxers with speed and movement and Ali was at the top of the heap in that arena.

[HEGrant]

One of the things almost completely forgotten when discussing Ali was just how strong he was...Holmes told me this as well...watch Ali against Foreman, a man many consider the strongest ever to hold the title...watch Ali wrestle him straight up...often imposing his will on George...it helped him in a huge way in this fight...

Another Ali strength classic is the Bonavena fight...Ali literally threw Oscar all over the ring at will.

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[Another Ali strength classic is the Bonavena fight...Ali literally threw Oscar all over the ring at will. ]]]]
========================

I made a post not last month about that and some other early Ali fights. Oscar bulled Ali about the ring winging shots from every angle. Other than infrequent combos that Ali threw, and Oscar losing his balance in his wildness, Oscar, in spite of the crooked scoring, was making the fight and landing with more authority and had Ali hurt at one point.

If not for the best left hook Ali ever threw in a Hail Mary effort to KD Oscar and Oscar's stupid insistance on leaping up without a count and coming under the 3 KD rule, that would have been another Ali controversial win on the scorecards.

I agree that Ali was surprisingly strong, but you've gone overboard in this example.

[HEGrant]

Overboard on this example: Rewatch the first few rounds. Oscar is wild and tried to bull Ali. Ali literally throws him all over the ring and down to the floor twice...Oscar actually looks like he is crying to the ref to stop Ali from bullying him...Oscar only managed to have some success against Ali later in the fight when the inactivity took it's toll and exhaustion hit Ali....

Ali's 1970/71 of Quarry/Bonavena and the Frazier was absolutely brutal. I can think of no harder comeback taken by a former champ. Think about it. Out for three and one half years. Get a license and in six weeks of training get in there with a very tough top contender like Quarry. A few months later and then an animal like Bonavena. Finally three months later and then an absolute prime, hall of fame killer like Frazier. It's amazing Ali did as great as he did.

He was lucky against Quarry. Gerry was just getting started and Ali was already slowing down when that cut happened. It saved Ali a very difficult fight.

Bonavena was a terrible match up for Ali after such a long layoff. He was strong, ackward and iron chinned. He was a god hitter. He was quirky and defiant. That fight exposed how much Ali lost. The legs would never be back.

Frazier 1 might have been Ali's greatest fight. For him to survive and put up such a competitive fight against this Joe was amazing...maybe his "Red Badge of Courage." It's amazing he went the distance and did not get seriously hurt.

No one made Ali take this path. His management did it for one reason, the money. They were scared that at any moment his license could be pulled again and took the fastest path possible to hype a superfight with Joe.