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Thread: Most stupid strategies EVER !!!

  1. #61
    brutu
    Guest

    dumb stratigies

    I had heard that before the fight with Larry Holmes,that
    Gerry Cooney decided he just"wanted to go the ditance' with the champion,like Rocky Balboa did.

  2. #62
    PeteLeo
    Guest

    Re: dumb

    I had Ali ahead after fourteen in the third Frazier fight, but I do have to wonder what would have happened if Eddie had allowed Joe to come out for the final round. I was reading a retrospective of this bout only a week or so ago, and that article contained something I'd never heard before:

    According to the writer -- shoot me, but I forget who wrote it --, when Muhammad went to his corner after the fourteenth, he unequivocally ordered Dundee to cut off his gloves, saying that he was "finished." Angelo waved the words aside, as he had in the first Liston match, but the writer goes on to say that had Frazier left his stool to start the fifteenth, Dundee was prepared to stop it and concede a TKO victory to Joe. Anyone else ever read/heard anything like this? I know that Ali did collapse after accepting the crowd's cheers following the stoppage, but he and Dundee always claimed that action was voluntary and designed to get his hysterically happy supporters away form him. PeteLeo.

  3. #63
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest

    dumb

    [[[[I recently rewatched Ali/Foreman and have to say that Foreman fought the stupidest fight I ever saw a top fighter fight...he was the only man in the arena or watching that did not catch on to what he was doing to himself...knowing Foreman as we do today makes it even more painful...

    Does any other suicidal strategy of this magnitude come to mind ? I cannot think of a larger self destruction than Foreman/Ali, can you ? ]]]]]]
    ================================

    Rather than start a new thread over old material, I thought I'd start up this fine example of your exaggeration.

    I've spent part of the day reviewing that fight. It happens to be a great one in spite of the fact that George looks clumsy too often and Ali looks like crap. Ali took incredible punishment. It's no wonder he looked so bad in most of his title defenses after this.

    I had George ahead 5-2 in rounds at the start of the 8th. I understand Ali won the 1st on the judges card, but after the 1st 30 sec George started to come on hard and I had him winning the 1st five handily. He caught Ali with a couple of good left hooks, showed a decent defense with his arms extended to disrupt Ali's flurries, and really did a number on the body. He also showed a sharp jab when he used it, and had spots where he picked carefully between Ali's gloves.

    In the 6th George came out as weak as a kitten. Frankly, compared to the 5th, it looked suspicious, but even in a weakened state he kept Ali on the ropes as it looked like Ali was too tired to do too much. It's debatable if Ali even won these rounds, but George looked so slow and weak, I can understand giving to Ali.

    The 8th showed George still tired, but regaining his strength. He's off balance though and early in the round he misses with a left hook and ends up sprawled over the ropes. Ali has cocked his right and holding George's head down with his left, ready to deliver a rabbit punch to his head which must be 3' out of the ring, but Steele jumps in and separates.

    George is still coming on, though still a little off balance. As the round ends Ali has been pulling George's head in and down with his left hand and Steele would separate. Finally he pulls his head down with his left and delivers a borderline rabbit rt hand behind the ear. Foreman is ends up hanging over the ropes again, and Ali lands a flush rabbit right to the back of George's head. George sort of pops up and around where Ali delivers his classic combo, finishing with a flush right in the face of George who is already in his slow stumble across the ring.

    It was the rabbit punch, set up by the continuous holding by Ali in the fight that set up that sequence. I counted 9 when George was up. It seemed like Steele rushed the 7-8-9-10 as George was getting up.

    10 sec later Ali collapses for 5 sec in the ring. He had raised his arms, walking to his corner as the ring was swarmed. His team lifts him up, but he starts protesting to let him down. They immediately do so and he promptly faints. Mayhem breaks out as key people try to make room for him. He's helped up and sec later collapses again, but this time he's caught and guided to his corner.

    Seems to me that George fought that way because he was hurting Ali and winning the fight. Even at his weakest moments in the fight, the 6-7th, Ali could not keep George off of him or do much to him. It was the rabbit punch at the end of the round that did in an exhausted George, plus a bit of a fast count. Ali was himself ready to collapse, and anyone who has ever seen the Wepner fight, his first afterwards, can clearly see the damage George did to him.

    I still can't believe Ali stood up under the onslaught of George. He blocked a lot, but a lot were getting through, esp clean body shots. Watch the fight again. It's the reason the rematch was never made. Ali talks of retiring afterwards. Too bad he didn't. It just got worse from defense to defense for him, and in the Frazier rubber match where he was ready to quit a fight I had Frazier ahead in.

  4. #64
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest

    Frazier

    Try as he might, Ali just could not keep Frazier off him, much like Foreman. His flurries were just that, flurries whereas Joe had really teed off on him.

    Not only did Ali state he could not come out the final round, but I think it Willie Monroe or some other Philly fighter Joe had in Ali's corner that heard Ali was quitting and was trying to make over to Joe's corner to tell them when Futch stopped the fight.

    In the meantime, I wait to see what HE has to say about my previous post.

  5. #65
    pendleton23
    Guest

    Re: dumb

    Duran got into Leonards head the first bout and Ray fought the wrong fight.And anybody that disputes that doesn't know boxing.
    And I don't care what Randy Gordon wrote about the rematch.
    Leonard was embarrasing Duran and that was an experience Duran couldn't handle so he quit.

  6. #66
    wildhawke11
    Guest

    Re: dumb

    If i recall that first fight correct it was in a small ring. On the other hand the return was in a ring size of 24ft which played right into Ray's hands. In fact i had tipped Duran to win the first fight. But the guys at work were a little surprised to see me switch to Leonard in there second meeting. it was because of the room i knew Ray would have to move about in.

  7. #67
    pendleton23
    Guest

    Re: dumb

    The ring was not that small in there first bout.Ray got caught up in the hype in the first bout and tried to out macho Duran.
    And it turned out to be a stupid move.In the 2nd Duran was in the process of outclassing Duran.Duran would and could never beat a Ray Leonard who utilizes his natural style.

  8. #68
    thumper3852
    Guest
    In the meantime, I wait to see what HE has to say about my previous post.

    I'm glad you found another chance via this thread to continue your never ending quest to bash Muhammad Ali, Roberto. It's good to know that you spend time devising posts to get under HE's skin as well as the Ali fans that you have so much disdain for.....

    You can take some pleasure that your post was noticed and congratulations on watching some Ali film....I thought you would have done that well before, however, given your consistent and plentiful negative postings regarding his many flaws as a champion fighter and human being.

    Such keen observations like Foreman seemed "clumsy" really bolster your hidden contention that George was drugged......(frankly, Foreman was clumsy against fighters that could actually move because he typically relied heavily on his brutish strength).

    And by the way...the referee that was in on the "fix" was Zach Clayton, not Richard Steele. The obvious suspicious developments in Ali-Foreman fight have to constitute one of the "most stupid strategies ever" because they all should have known that an eagle eyed, truth and justice guy like yourself would have easily uncovered how the cheating Ali and followers stole the title in Africa.

  9. #69
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest

    Me 'n You

    [[[[[[I'm glad you found another chance via this thread to continue your never ending quest to bash Muhammad Ali, Roberto. It's good to know that you spend time devising posts to get under HE's skin as well as the Ali fans that you have so much disdain for.....]]]]]]
    ================================

    Whoa, I don't mind nicking HE now and again, or even a cheerleading Ali fan, but I don't have disdain for Ali or his fans. I do disdain King and the way Ali's team kept him propped up in his last years because I don't like what has happened to him.

    Yeah, thanks for the correction about Clayton, that was clumsy of me, but that's about all the thanks I can muster for you. I happen to disagree Foreman had a bad strategy. He stumbled into some very circumstantial conditions that could never be duplicated again against a fighter many if not most consider to be the best heavy ever.

    I just broke down the fight since I got a chance to review it that day. Just because a fighter loses doesn't mean that his strategy was wrong. Foreman was winning the fight and Ali had never even buzzed him in the fight. Was Foreman supposed to back off and say, OK, I think I'm going to outbox a superior boxer now? Actually, Foreman did take some R&R in the 6th and 7th, but still manage to stay on top of Ali who was himself ripe for the KO.

    Sure, my view ain't politically correct, but I feel history is on my side even if you aren't.

  10. #70
    HEGrant
    Guest

    Re: Me 'n You

    I don't understand Roberto's point. Is he saying that Foreman fought the right strategy against Ali ? If so, he's the only guy on the planet that feels that way including Foreman. George has time and against said he fell into Ali's trap based on his own overconfidence. He calls himself the "dope" in Rope a Dope.

    As far as getting under my skin, whatever. Many of us are quilty of over venting on this Board from time to time. I m in that group. Other times we keep a cooler head, more often than not due to our M.C. Mr. GD...it's his house and if we enjoy the luxury of his hospitality, we have to adhere to his rules.

    I personally feel Foreman self destructed in Zaire. I believe he had much better skills than he exhibited. He should have been able to outlast and defeat a 32 year old Ali that night. He did not win and I feel this was because he went kamakazi, the wrong style against the wrong guy. If he kept his head, used his stunning jab and paced himself he would have outlasted and outpointed Ali. He did not and he lost.

  11. #71
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest

    BAD

    Like I pointed out, Ali was on the brink of KO himself and collapsed twice seconds after the end of the fight.

    The nattering nabobs would've had a field day saying Ali fought the wrong strategy and that he self destructed had he folded in the ring.

    FACT: Foreman won most the rounds and had Ali out on his feet in spite of not being able to properly prepare for the fight because of his cut.

    Foreman has turned the fight into his personal joke highlight and moved on to far greater things. That speaks very highly to his ability to strategize. Read the post fight interviews. Ali hedges to rematch questions whereas George is philosophical and ready to pick it up as soon as possible. Ali knows he took a beating and is reluctant to enter the ring against George again.

    BTW, Wepner claims he had an agreement to fight Foreman before the Ali fight, but that Don King told him that he was going to be fighting Ali instead. It proves nothing but is one more nail into the dubious nature of this whole promotion.

  12. #72
    thumper3852
    Guest
    NEVER UNDERESTIMATE SKILL VS BRUTE FORCE.......

    If Big George learned ANYTHING from the humiliating loss to Ali, a fight which everyone picked George to win due to his vaunted power and Ali's age....he apparently forgot what the lesson was when he fought Jimmy Young....

    There's no need to find excuses for George.....and certainly no merit in diminishing Ali's victory.....Foreman got beat.... by a better, more experienced, and tougher fighter, who just happened to have the perfect strategy for George and the vaunted Foreman power.

    Foreman could have trained for 10 more weeks or ten more months.....he would have still fought the same stupid fight, because that's just how George fought and it always had worked for him.

  13. #73
    fabulous4
    Guest

    ali vs foreman

    NEVER UNDERESTIMATE SKILL VS BRUTE FORCE.......

    If Big George learned ANYTHING from the humiliating loss to Ali, a fight which everyone picked George to win due to his vaunted power and Ali's age....he apparently forgot what the lesson was when he fought Jimmy Young....
    Foreman fought wrong fight with jimmy Young, agressive Foreman would have knocked him out with couple of rounds.
    He fought right way against Ali since he couldn't win decision against Ali anyway.
    But there's not much boxer than can do with wrestler and Ali was holding Foreman like master wrestler that night. And Ali was still close to being knocked out.
    Everyone knew that Ali will try to tire out Foreman and try to come on later rounds but nobody thought before fight that he will use wrestling instead of boxing for that. :rolleyes

  14. #74
    thumper3852
    Guest
    ...........sounds like George just couldn't win those fights....but no one felt Ali would beat him and very damn few thought Jimmy Young would beat him....funny how boxing goes some times.....strangely enough sometimes boxers have to actually do some boxing in order to beat some opponents.

    Poor George....imagine an Ali wrestling with him...and actually having it work to his advantage....Foreman had every advantage relative to size and, I'm sure, in every one's nid, strength. If Foreman could have gotten away with it he would have muscled Ali all over the ring, hung on him to use his weight to wear him down, shoved him to the mat as he did Kirkman, etc.

    I think the Foreman camp's biggest underestimation regarding Ali was his toughness and his strength relative to George's and the type of fighter that Ali had developed into as he matured...he was big enough to be sure, but he was also still faster and always was smarter. Foreman was so used to seeing men fall in front of him....when Ali didn't, and in the process jive talked him...George lost what little sense of control he had as a fighter.......that his handlers failed to account for these intangibles in an opponent, especially one of Ali's stature, and prepare George for it makes for one really stupid strategy...just hit the old guy and he'll go...just like Norton, just like Frazier, and just like all the rest....

    Sure Ali wrestled, held, tied up....what's a guy supposed to do, just let the big oaf maul him? Hell no, maul him back, tie him up, pick your shots, and when the big boy starts breathing heavily, pop the jab, slip the punches, jab him again, let him know he's in with a warrior and a champ....and it worked just fine.

  15. #75
    HEGrant
    Guest
    The funny thing about Roberto is that I think he believes what he writes.

    Ali was on the verge of a ko loss himself ? When ? There is no doubt that Foreman tagged him a few times with single shots when he was fresh and that stung Ali but George was wild and never able to string together enough in combination to ever have Ali on the verge of a KO loss. Since you just reviewed the fight Roberto, I am asking you to show us the moment when he had Ali on the verge of a KO. Round and time please.

    Foreman won most of the rounds ? While I agree it is open to interpretation, I once again think you're wrong. The first few rounds were even. Through five you can say it was an even fight. However, everyone but Foreman saw where the momentum was heading as George openly deteriorated while Ali was exposing him and his flawed strategy. There is no doubt George remained dangerous to the end but there is also no doubt that he was falling apart in front of the world.

    George was not in shape for the fight because of the cut ? Where do you get that one ? Most people say the cut allowed him more time to get in better shape, that at the time of the cut he was not 100%. I have never heard anyone but you say he was not in shape because of the cut. The man came into the ring looking like he was carved out of stone. He did not have an ounce of fat on him. No one from his camp ever made a claim about that as far as I know. "It wasn't the jungle weather, it was the Ali leather". :rollin

    Crooked promotion ? Are you saying the fight was fixed ? Was the ref paid off or was George doped ?

    I am curious, is there anyone else who reads this thread that agrees with Roberto ? I personally think he either loves Foreman and sees it with rose colored lenses or strongly dislikes Ali.

    To me it remains as I wrote when I started it. Foreman, overconfident and arrogant, came into the fight believing he was going to blow Ali out as he did Frazier and Norton ... when he could not do so, he refused to shift gears as great fighters often have to do to win difficult fights. His refusal, combined with his aged but still exceptional opponent, resulted in a stunning defeat that took him decades to get over from a mental standpoint.

    Now while were at it Roberto, tell me again how Leonard Duran one was all about Duran not letting Leonard box instead of Leonard making a poor strategic decison with his ego to choose to slug.

  16. #76
    PD99
    Guest

    The Rumble in The Jungle

    I think the potential success of any alternative strategy on Foreman's part is over rated.

    He was never going to out box Ali. For Foreman to win, Ali had to be put out inside of 4-5 rds, something which many predicted George would do. As far as most ppl were concerned, it was a moot point to speculate the complexion/result of the bout after 4 rds. In the 2+ yrs preceding Zaire, Foreman averaged little over 2-3 rds per bout.

    For Ali,Foreman was little different from prevoius bouts, he started cooly enough looking to cut the ring off and he did force Ai to the ropes before too long. Remember, it was a super mobile Ali who was ready to go from rd 1. He landed first, with an audacious lead right - the first of many easily landed on Foreman throughout. With left jabs and straight rights, on the ropes and off, he continually kept Foreman off balance and circumvented any momentum George might've built. Ali's still elite hand speed was a big factor. So too was one of his more outstanding punching displays which, imo, is often overlooked. Flatfooted, he jarred Foreman with the jab and spun his head time and again with right crosses. When George wasn't punching, Ali was. Foreman was already beginning to puff up by rd 3 when yet another Ali right clearly staggered him. The punishment meted out by Ali himself lent itself a great deal Foreman's rapid deterioration and ultimate demise, imo.

    If Foreman had paced himself and fought boxed more considerately it would've only given Ali more breathing space and time to outbox him in a more conventional fashion. A longer, less dramatic fight with Foreman stopped sometime after 10 rds in my view.

    As good as Foreman's jab was, Ali was almost as big as George and it wasn't going to enjoy the same glaring success it did against the more hittable and shorter Chuvalo and Frazier (also a notorious slow starter who was repeatedly & illegally shoved by Foreman to allow for punching range). Ali simply showed what would happen to Foreman against a top shelf contender who managed not to get himself KO'd inside of the first 4 rds.

    The Norton fight actually gave a glimpse of how easily Foreman could be outboxed. Of course, Norton didn't have Ali's skills nor chin and fell apart under George's first solid shot. Norton admitted that he saw plenty of openings but was simply too tight to take full advantage. He did not see Ali suffereing the same mental impairment and Norton was one of the few ppl to pick Ali to win - "by decision easily".

    Btw, I had the fight pretty even going into rd 8 also, A rd in which Foreman was still able to land a thudding right cross, spinning Ali's head & forcing him to move off the ropes in quick time.

    Does anybody know the official scoring at the time of the KO? Roberto said it was a fact (aka Roberto's opinion?) that Foreman was leading. .

  17. #77
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest

    George

    [[[Does anybody know the official scoring at the time of the KO? Roberto said it was a fact (aka Roberto's opinion?) that Foreman was leading.]]]]
    ===========================

    Foreman was ahead by about 2 on the cards that I saw. I had him ahead by 3.

    If HE would read some Ali bios, eventually he will come across some Ali admissions he was out on his feet in the bout. He also collapsed seconds after the fight, very similar to the Frazier 3 fight when he told Dundee he couldn't come out the 15th round.

  18. #78
    HEGrant
    Guest

    Re: George

    I repeat Roberto, when was he out on his feet and on the verge of a KO loss ? Why not simply answer the question ?

    You clearly said you just reviewed the fight. You should have no point decisively telling us the time and the round. Maybe you wont because then you'd have to back up your over the top stretches with some fact perhaps ?

    I repeat, point out when. Don't revise history and don't stretch words written by Howard Bingham in The Greatest. The time of the round or rounds in question please.

  19. #79
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest

    OK

    [[[[ I repeat Roberto, when was he out on his feet and on the verge of a KO loss ? Why not simply answer the question ? ]]]]]]
    ===========

    I reviewed the fight, yeah, but not for that. I was more interested in the ebb and flow, the rounds won, when Foreman wore out, Ali's response, the KO sequence, the count, and the collapse of Ali.

    George catches Ali with a flush left hook to the jaw in the first round. He catches Ali with another mid rounds. He also does a number on Ali's body midrounds where he has a window of free shots. That is probably when Ali was out, but he says he was out at least 2-3 times during the fight.

    It's telling that when George comes out in the 6th weak as a kitten, Ali can do little with him and mostly lets George pound weakly away, so obviously Ali was in recovery as well as George.

    I'll look at it this PM, yet again.

  20. #80
    HEGrant
    Guest

    Re: OK

    Look there's no question Foreman was an exceptionally strong, hard punching, tough boxer. Even fighting what I feel was the wrong fight, he was still extremely dangerous and hard for Ali to take out. Ali must have hit Foreman with a dozen flush right hands in the first round alone and Foreman shook them off like nothing.

    I always viewed Zaire as more of a huge Foreman disappointment than anything else. I felt he should have won the fight. Of course he was no going to out box Ali but he could outpoint him by hammering in that hard jab...throwing shots to the body and crossing over the ocassional right hand.

  21. #81
    PD99
    Guest

    Foreman v Ali

    The question of Ali being out on his feet during the fight has been thrashed out before (pre hack). I think some wires got crossed as to who was arguing for what. I'm not here to argue, just discuss.

    Imo, the description in The Greatest in it's own right (whoever you want to attribute it to), clearly & deliberately describes Ali in a half conscious state (aka out on his feet, imo). There is no liberal interpretation or "stretching" of words to read it that way. Most ppl I've read uniformly read it that way. No disrespect intended but does anyone besides He disagree? The fact that someone might not be able to point with 100% confidence to a given moment during the fight in which that definitely appears to be the case (Ali being out on his feet) does not alter what is an otherwise fair & literal reading of the passage in question.

    However, if the suggestion is that the description itself in The Greatest is overlaced with hyperbole or "stretching" the actual truth (as run up against the vision), I wouldn't necessarily disagree.

    Now to throw a few other things into the mix, Foreman himself (Ali's most intimate observor during the course of the fight) stated that he hit Ali with some of the hardest shots he ever threw (disagree, Smok'n Joe was the unfortunate recipient of same) and that there were moments when his punches appeared to put Ali "out" momentarily only for Ali to somehow "awake" again shortly thereafter and fight back. Perhaps George was simply riding the coat tails of the description in The Greatest. Anyway, given Ali's recuperative powers, if any fighter could get away with a punch induced micro sleep whilst still on his feet going generally un noticed, Ali would be that fighter, imo.

    The man became frighteningly acustomed to absorbing punishment and, perhaps there were a # of unidentified moments during his career in which he rode out a short lived semi conscious state. The description in The Greatest also mindfully noted "I've been here before".

    I can nominate a moment when I think that Ali was literally "out" on his feet without the commentator (seasoned Dunphy) even touching on his even being hurt. It was rd 10 (I think) in Manilla. Frazier caught Ali with a particularly hard and flush hook in the corner. He then tees of with a succession of left hooks. Imo, you can literally see the life drain from Ali's upper body but he is supported by the ropes (as he was at times in Zaire). Though Ali's arms remain wrapped over his head, he does nothing else. Absolutely static. Dunphy confidently suggests that Ali will soon open up like he always does. True. Ali always did and as viewers we became accustomed to same, even after taking the most hellacious shots. For mine, in rd 10 at that very moment, Ali was literally "out" on his feet for several seconds before recovering.

    Remember what Frazier said after the fight?. Something like Lawdy, he's a great champ. I hit him with shots that would've brought down the walls of a city.

  22. #82
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest

    Jerico

    "bring down the walls of Jerico"

    Joe was a devout Christian and used Old Testament imagery to descibe his bout with Ali. Agreed, Ali was out against Joe too, took a helluva a beating. It seems Ali had some kind of hibernation zone he went into that allowed him to survive these bouts. I just don't see other heavies standing up to the punishment Joe and George layed on him.

    Looking at the fight again, you can see Ali go into hibernation in the 3rd-5th at times. However he looked the most visibly hurt in the 7th when George caught him with an uppercut. George looked well on his way to KOing him in the 8th when the rabbit punch landed and started his downfall.

    What I can't believe is Ali didn't seem to have a mark on him, and George did catch him with good shots. Not even rope burns. Amazing.

    I would also say, though George was tired, he was coming back after looking punched out in the 6th and most of the 7th. I would not say he had a stamina problem in the fight since he really put on a show.

  23. #83
    HEGrant
    Guest

    Re: Jerico

    I disagree about the 7th and 8th. By that time Foreman was fighting at half speed, his punches wild, almost comical looking, and he looked as if he were throwing them underwater. Ali was also tired from exertion and the heat. He was much smarter, biding his time and picking his shots.

  24. #84
    SageBrush
    Guest
    I dont know what else he might of Tried, But Peter McNeeley rushing into Tyson like that no doubt speeded up the result a tad.

    Re Ali and Exhaustion, I cant remember off hand regarding the Foreman fight, and very the crowded ring, But certainly for Frazier 3, only once fraziers retiement was known did Ali allow himself to relax, and sit on a Stool, if there was a 15th, at worse, im sure Ali would still have been able to negate Joe for another 3 mins.

  25. #85
    Sharkey
    Guest

    One

    reason Ali could look 'out' and 'hurt' and then win was the attribute great fighters have of recuperative ability to recover when hurt.

    Ali had it. In spades. Examining unanswerable and unmeasurable moments and incidents within a fight can only fail to reveal tangible proof.

    It should be enough to conclude that Ali put out Foreman because he had powers of recovery beyond reason. Seeking to answer what else might explain it beyond that calls into question everything that happens within the ring.

    In any fight.

    And will fail to reveal the explanation that satisfies.

  26. #86
    HEGrant
    Guest

    Re: One

    You have logical points. I was simply asking Roberto to show what he seems so certain of by reference.

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