Most stupid strategies EVER !!!

[robertk]

A few real bad strategies thru the years;

Mugabi coming out throwing double jabs and using his footwork against mcclellan. Mugabi was long since shot and never pulled his hands back to their proper position. Let alone bouncing. and mcclellan was waiting like a cobra for mugabi to get within his circumference with those hands low.It didn't take 30 seconds.


Joppy-Trinidad. It looked like joppy was trying to win this one ala bazooka limon and walk right thru the guy to land his own shots. Joppy always held that head straight up in the air and just walked straight in didn't use any of his physical advantages or try to take advantage of trinidad's footwork.

Virgil Hill--Tommy Hearns. Hill had won a fair amount of close decisions but he did know how to win fights. But he was either flat or dumb but he let hearns fight the only way possible tommy could beat him. Great win for hearns and it looked as if hill did zero preperations for the fight.

Berbick--Tyson. there sure wasn't anyone I knew picking Berbick to win but sure thought he'd make it the distance with that style of his. Nope==fire eddie futch for this fight and walk into tyson and exchange--as if berbick had any kind of power or snap on his shots.

Holyfield--Lewis #1. Sure---evander and his vaunted 1 punch power was going to take out lewis with a shot when he wanted to. No need to try setting it up or anything--he'd just penetrate all those physical advantages lewis had as soon as the bell for round 3 rang. And there was hardly any point in having to prepare for a long jab like the lennox lewis jab either--just posing on the outside would work just fine and don't bother with things like upper body movement or head movement.

[fabulous4]

Leonard vs Duran I --brawling with Duran isn't smartest thing to do for boxer like Leonard.

Also Hearns fought stupid fight against Hagler.


Foreman vs Young.

[HEGrant]

Great Picks:

Hill/Hearns: I always felt that Hill benefitted from the weakest light heavy competition in my lifetime...he was a decent fighter but please...however, when he fought Hearns he fought so scared it was a joke...

Leonard/Duran 1 is an obvious choice.

Hearns/Hagler was another.

[Roberto Aqui]

Leonard and Hearns had no choice in their style of fight. Leonard was almost KOed in the 2nd round by Duran with a left hook and was seeing stars and fighting for survival the rest of the fight.

Hearns has no leg movement to keep a monster like Hagler at bay on a night when Hagler was POed enough at Hearns to kill him with his bare hands. Stupid was getting Marvin that POed before the fight began.

Stupid is not showing up in fighting shape with a professional corner and thinking you can blow out Buster Douglas like Tyson did. Stupid is giving up all the early rounds against a game young challenger like Hopkins did against Taylor. Stupid is believing the hype that you're Tito incarnate and trying to slug with a dangerous slugger like Cotto did against Torres.

Stupid is Ali coming back for Holmes and Berbick and not retiring before Spinks.

Stupid is Golota.

Stupid is fighting for Don the Con King.

[HEGrant]

Roberto: Why was Hopkins strategy stupid...at forty he obviously knew he could not match Taylors pace over 12 rounds...he had physical limitations, no different than your claims about Hearns legs...very inconsistant analogy...

As far as Leonard/Duran 1, please...that was all about Ray not fighting his fight...he proved just how easy he could do it six months later...watch the fight...Leonard choose to slug with Duran...Duran did not force him to do it...it was Ray's choice and he almost pulled it off. The fight was very close and Ray clearly took the last two rounds...

[PeteLeo]

Marvis Frazier even climbing through the ropes to fight Holmes and Tyson.
("You shoot me even in a dream, and you better wake up and apologize," Mr. White to Mr. Blond in RESERVOIR DOGS.)
PeteLeo.

[jyoungfan2]

Joe said he knew Marvis wasn't a great boxer. A lot of people criticize him for putting marvis in those fights. As Joe puts it, marvis got paid 1/2 million for each fight. The name of the game is to make money and Joe feels he got marvis the most for his ability.

[fabulous4]

yep, this is revisionist

[fabulous4]

yep, there are many Leonard' revisionists who say that Leonard was forced to fight Duran's fight first time and Duran was sick in second fight and quit only because of that. >D

Leonard was entire fight flat-footed, he never danced in that fight. He never even tried!

Reason he did this?

I think Ferdie Pacheco comments during fight summarizes it pretty well:

"Would you believe Leonard trying to match macho with macho!?"

Ferdie Pacheco: "Yes, he is been reading the papers and that's too bad, he should be fighting from outside, movement is what he needs, movement!"

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[[Roberto: Why was Hopkins strategy stupid...at forty he obviously knew he could not match Taylors pace over 12 rounds...he had physical limitations, no different than your claims about Hearns legs...very inconsistant analogy...

As far as Leonard/Duran 1, please...that was all about Ray not fighting his fight...he proved just how easy he could do it six months later...watch the fight...Leonard choose to slug with Duran...Duran did not force him to do it...it was Ray's choice and he almost pulled it off. The fight was very close and Ray clearly took the last two rounds...]]]]]]]]
========================

Hopkins could've varied his off rounds and tried to take a few early rounds, mixed it up for the judges. Hearns doesn't come close to being equivilent to Hopkins in their respective fights. Hopkins had a choice, Hearns was helpless.

Duran 2? Duran forced Ray to fight his fight when Duran was near his all time best and Ray was just about peak in the first fight. Duran was a fatted pig in the ring for the 2nd fight. The 2nd fight proved nothing other than apparently you have never bothered to read on this board about how pathetic Duran's prep had been for the fight. There was talk of not paying him and suspending him.

[HEGrant]

Roberto , please...Leonard could just as well fought as a boxer in their first time out ...you are about the only person I ever read that has said Duran "made" him fight his fight...complete revisionist history. Watch the fight !!!! Leonard has dozens of opportunities to dance away but never does...He chooses to engage Roberto...if that were not the case we would see Leonard trying to dance but fail due to Roberto cutting him off...you never see it because it simply did not happen that way...I am a huge Duran guy but I can seperate fantasy from reality.

As far as Hopkins goes, how do you know ? Maybe he simply lacked the gear to compete with Taylor full throttle out of the gate and had to catch up with him as the younger man slowed down a bit. It's amazing how you are so sure of what Bernard could have done and so sure of what Leonard and Hearns could not have done.

You must be loaded from winning huge money on all these fights with that sort of knowledge.

[starlingstomp]

Does it really matter that Leonard was flat footed or not?.Being flat footed does not necessarily mean that one is not trying to box and counter the other man.

leonard did not come out winging punches or looking to take one to land one.He claimed centre-ring because i assume he thought he was the stronger man and could control the fight with Duran right in front of him.

I don't remember many people at the time saying Duran was stronger or that Leonard HAD to stick and move to win.

Duran outfeinted and countered him from the outside early in the fight and then maintained the initiative for most of the remaining rounds.He put on a masterful display of slipping and countering.That's why he won the fight, not because of Leonard simply opting to trade.

I reckon if Leonard had fought the way he did in "no mas" the first time around he would have won a close, tough decision.However, there wasn't really many saying that was what he definitely had to do, so his losing had more to do with his being unable to solve the puzzle in front of him IMO.

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[[[...I am a huge Duran guy but I can seperate fantasy from reality.]]]]]]
======================

No you can't. I believe it was SI who did a big spread on Ray after Duran 2. Ray stated he was caught by a left hook in the 2nd round of the first fight and was seeing stars and forced into retreat for most of the fight. This was a big interview and widely available. He also lays out how he gave monetary concessions to force a bloated party pig that Duran had become into a quick rematch in order to secure the advantage.

Randy Gordon did a huge piece on the prep of Duran 2 where he records the pitiful excesses he saw by Duran. The article was widely distributed on this board. I would add in that I, with no boxing connections other than what I read at the time, had heard the story of Duran's poor training and weighin long before I read Gordon's peice on this board.

Now, unless you are claiming that Ray and Randy were congenital liars, your pegleg has a bad case of termites. The record is clear.

[HEGrant]

Joe ruined whatever substancial career Marvis might have had...he blew him up ten pounds, he made him fight in Joe's own style...all a mistake...Mavis was a classic boxer with decent power as an amateur...while he would never have been a heavyweight champ (except maybe today), he could have been one at cruiser where he belonged. It was all a mistake driven by Joe. Yes so after taxes Marvis ended up with $ 300,000 ... al ot of money but not for a career.

[Dragnet 69]

I agree with Roberto's assessment and remember the interview he mentioned. Starling also makes a good point about Duran feinting Leonard and countering him from the outside. The punch that hurt Leonard in 2nd was from the outside. I don't think Ray could have beaten Duran that night no matter what he did.

[Dragnet 69]

Another stupid strategy IMO was Quarry boxing Ellis and toeing it with Frazier. He should have went after Ellis like he did Buster Mathis and used a combination of boxing/countering and slugging with Joe. He might have beaten Ellis and would have a better chance at Frazier IMO.

[fabulous4]

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[fabulous4]

Does it really matter that Leonard was flat footed or not?.Being flat footed does not necessarily mean that one is not trying to box and counter the other man.

Depends who, if you have seen Leonard fights you should know that he was a dancer. Leonard said before fight to journalist that he will fight flat-footed and knock-out Duran. And he tried just that. Saying that Duran forced Leonard to fight flat-footed is pretty dumb statement.


About Duran being stronger than Leonard, i don't think that those who really knew how good Duran was thought that Leonard has chance if he fights inside.
No doubt that Ferdie Pacheco & (showtime?) commentators knew it, during fight they say many times similiar to:

"i just couldn't believe this. I can not believe that Leonard would come out and fight Duran like he was fighting Pete Ranzany!!"


I can't believe that someone seriously thinks that Leonard couldn't use lateral movement and was forced to fight flat-footed after round 2 where Duran shortly hurt him. :rolleyes

[jyoungfan2]

Good point HEGrant. I never thought of Marvis at cruiserweight. One thinks "frazier" and heavyweight comes immediately to mind. would marvis have had a longer career at cruiser and would he possibly have been champion at that time?

[HEGrant]

Roberto: Point out the rounds in their first bout where Leonard tried to dance away and fight but Duran forced him out of it. For once I'd like to see you back out your points with fact. You have 15 rounds to select from. I'd like you to point out five times where Leonard tried to dance and box, as he did in the second fight, but had his style changed by Roberto. Back it with fact . Should be easy for you.

In adition, what's your excuse for Leonard / Duran 3 Roberto ? Duran was just good enough to defeat the prime Barkley that just destroyed Hearns. What's your Roberto excuse for him losing almost every round of that fight ?

[Roberto Aqui]

Gee whizzus, it's a stiff challenge to attempt to answer these boxing 101 questions with a straight face.

Just read the damn SI article in Ray's own words. He gives great credit to Duran who he depised, talks of trying to outbox him, but as I recall was fighting on his heels for most of the fight until he had recovered somewhat in later rounds. He also layed out his strategy to take advantage of Duran's weakness in the rematch, which was weight, flab, and food in no particular order. Completely different fighters in the rematch.

As far as the 3rd fight goes, well, Duran in the FIRST fight had more than 30 fights than what Ray was able to even finish his career with and we know how Ray closed his career. Please let us know how well Ray performs when he has over 70 fights under his belt and you will have answered your own question.

BTW, Ray was no dancer. He did make effective use of movement and the ring when needed, but he was also an aggressive puncher and counter puncher with good defense in the pocket which is what gave him his popularity.

[HEGrant]

So you refuse to back up your position with anything other than hot air ? You made a point. I'm sure you have or have access tothe tape since your so sure about the fight. Will you back it up with fact or not ?

[GorDoom]

C'mon guys can't you have a disagreement without getting all personal about it? This is just fucking boxing not the Israeli-Palestinian peace accords.

The fact that you see these fights between Leonard & Duran differently is fine. You both have a right to your own opinions but are either Leonard or Duran worth getting all hot under the collar about? Especially over 3 fights that took place 25 & 15 years ago?

I think not & I also think neither of you are going to change the other's view so why don't you just agree to disagree & move on?

You're both good guys & knowledgeable, posters on this board & getting hung up on this b.s. is really a waste of both of your times.

respectfully,

GorDoom

[HEGrant]

All I asked is for the guy to go to the tape and back up his claim with actual fact. This tape exists, unlike say Johnson/Langford. He refuses but wants to keep up with he said/she said half baked claims. To me it's bacause he cannot back up his talk with fact. Same thing with Ali muscling Bonavena in their fight. I said go watch the tape and see Ali throw Oscar all over the place. He says nothing about that.

Some guys like to throw out opinions all over the place like barstool muscle. I say go to the actual documented evidence, when it does exist, to support your claim. He refuses. It must be because he can't prove his point. That's that.

[GorDoom]

Let it go, Evan .... The aggravation isn't worth it. Also, & I know this from personal experience: When a couple of us posters start feuding it's really a drag for everyone else.

While the argument & making points might seem important the reality is is that it kills a thread because everyvbody else finds it boring as hell. I know this because I've gotten involved in feuds in the past & the two things I learned from my transgressions are, 1- It's counter productive. 2- It really is boring as hell for everybody else.

I'm not trying to point fingers here at anybody because like I said, I've been guilty of the same conduct in the past.

GorDoom

[Roberto Aqui]

What, you mean I have to start going back to bars to throw barstools around? Heck, ya'll gonna drive me to drinkin'!:x :evil

[GorDoom]

Naw, Roberto, the last thing I want is for you to hang out in bars & get in fights. I'm not sure how old you are but I got a feeling that for both of us are bar fighting days are over ...

GorDoom

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[I got a feeling that for both of us are bar fighting days are over ...]]]]]]]]]
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Hopefully, though technically I've never been in a bar fight, though I did back a worm into a remote corner and made him melt many moons back. Luckily the bar had some peaceful smallish bouncers that allowed me to work my majic!

[HEGrant]

Look I'm not dissing Roberto. The guy is very solid and knows a sh-tload...just keeping things interesting...however, when it bores the rest, respect dictates time to get over it.

[GorDoom]

Thank you, Evan. I appreciate that. You're a stand up guy.

GorDoom