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Elwill, I know you meant to say your all time welter top 10, not your all time P4P, but damn, it got me thinking -- that list could almost be the top 10 P4P -- the welters would be very well represented in P4P top 10 for certain...
Last edited by theironbar; 08-22-2006 at 10:37 AM.
Originally Posted by theironbar
oops...you're right....I didnt mean to say PFP. I meant to say I rank him in the top 10 welters of all time.
Still -- a thought provoking slip!
Great pic! Thanks for posting Zev!
No problem, here are some more...
Napoles-Lopez
My favorite Napoles fight is the one against Griffith. Pretty close to complete domination of an all-time great. I know that Emile had to come down in weight to take that fight (though the 144 lbs. suggest he did not have to starve to barely make weight), but Griffith was not shot at the time, and still had plenty of fight left in him (he would go on to beat good fighters like Tiger, Lopez, Muniz, and Briscoe after that).
I haven't seen that one yet but will be sure to get it -- I am compiling a list of "must see" fights and I really can't get enough of seeing Napoles in action -- I've watched the tapes I have of him several times now and the guy is a truly great fighter...
BTW, more great pics Zev -- thank you!
If so, then that griffith bout will see him improve about 25% in your overall assessment. It really was a terrific performance and one of those very rare bouts of 2 greats meeting in the ring and 1 guy dominates.
Griffith and Napoles are so high in my pantheon of greats -- I will be getting video of their battle for certain...
Thanks for posting Raf and Rob!
BTW, does anyone know what Jose Napoles is up to these days and how he's doing?
I have that fight with Griffith.
Napoles handled the Hall of Famer almost like a sparring partner, that's what it looked like, a sparring session.
Griffith started off trying to muscle him, and then in the second or third round he ran face first into a scything Napoles uppercut that floored him.
Every time after that when he'd shake Griffith, he'd back off of him.
Griffith could do nothing with him, but throw a lot of double jabs that mainly missed.
He landed nothing big and Jose gave him the boxing lesson of his storied career.
I had it 12 rounds to 3 for Napoles, 11 to 4 if I were feeling charitable.
Karl
I agree 100%. Napoles waxed him like a surfboard. GREAT performance.
Now on the flip side, what happened to Jose v. John Stracey? Grow old overnight or what?
jose dropped stracey early in that fight but was not in the kind of shape he needed to be in. at this stage napoles was going thru the motions in training. against stracey his face came apart like it did in muniz I. blinded on the ropes he was done. i have , however, always felt that if he had chose to, napoles could have beaten john in a return. jose was like joe louis in rematches but at this point i feel he just had had enough.
stracey was lucky in catching hedge, indian red and napoles at the ends of their respective careers. his loss to palomino places emphasis on that opinion.
greg
Greg is 100 percent correct.
Mantequilla also had a serious drinking problem when he faced off with John, and I hear from Bill O'Neill that the last time he saw Jose when he was inducted into the WBHOF, he was so smashed he could barely keep upright.
That being said; I liked Stracey a lot.
I think he was very underrated as a welterweight champion, and would have given it to guys today like Ricky Hatton and Arturo Gatti, for instance.
Greg brings up the very important fact that he caught these once terrific fighters at the tail end of their respective careers, but the Englishman was tough and skilled as far as the then upright European style went, and could most defintely fight and punch.
Stracey had very good stamina and won from more highly skilled fighters by walking through their beststuff and winning through an accumulation of punches to the body and head.
But: those body shots he suffered from Palomino......OUCH!
It hurts to look at that one even today.
Karl
Last edited by StingerKarl; 09-07-2006 at 11:22 PM.
Thanks for the posts and insights Greg and Karl -- very much appreciated.
-Peter
after these posts the other day i went to the box and watched napoles- stracey and then stracey-palomino.
napoles did look old in that fight with john and his face just could not not take the punnishment anymore. one thing i thought of was that if the same ref that did napoles-muniz I had been in there he would have dq'd stracey for twice striking jose while he was down.
that initial lefthook to the ribs that palomino landed was one of the best body shots you will ever see. stracey took a lot of punnishment in that fight and kept going but those body shots in the 12th absolutley creamed him. i saw carlos last month and the guy doesn't look a pound over 150 to this day.
greg
bump
But Napoles was shut out for years at a shot at the title at 135 where he was highly ranked by the Ring and other sources. He finally moved up in 1967to 147, 9 years after turning pro.
I think it is safe to say that he missed many prime years, while he was a lightweight at the championship level.
His move up in weight was not an issue of growing out of the Lightweight class, but rather, he was sick of being shut out at 135 and then at 140.
I think Napoles was a Natural Lightweight who if he had been afforded the opportunities at that weight, he would have become an even more dominant and impressive champ than he was at 147.
Given the number of years he did reign at 147, he was a REAL welterweight during this timeframe. I'm just not sure he was a natural Welterweight. ANd given that he didn't win the crown until he was nearly 30, I also beleive he was probably past his best when he finally recieved a title shot and won the title.
Hawk
Hi Hawk:
I suppose I have never understood why someone would say Napoles was not a "real" welterweight when that's the weight at which he won the title and achieved the greatest fame.
It is one thing, I suppose, to say that Napoles couldn't get a title shot at 135 so he moved up to 140 and then, shut out there as well, moved up to 147; I think it is quite another to say that he wasn't a "real" welterweight. In my mind that's like saying Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't a "real" middlweight since he could certainly have fought many more years at 147. Ditto for Emile Griffith and, if you go w - a - y back, Tommy Ryan.
For the very reasons you just described, I too would not make the broad statement that he wasn't a REAL Welterweight.
Hawk
Napoles doesn't impress me much either, imo he was a poor mans version of Donald Curry at his best.
Fat
You're a funny dude, I can't stop laughing every time I read one of your post.
maybe you should be on SNL.
And perhaps you should audition for a role on "A Christmas Carol" you'd be great as The Ghost Of Boxing Past.
Also since employers don't discriminate based on race like they used to Idoubt they'd hold you being a dinosaur against you.
Donald Curry was a fine fighter, but he never saw the day he could beat Jose Napoles.
hey fat you can just consider me another dinosaur weighing in here.
calling napoles a poor mans version of donald curry is very laughable.
he dominated the welterweight division in the days of one title one champ and he honestly was more a lightweight or jr. welter. carlos ortiz's trust avoided him like the plague and in those days the 140lb division held little prestige for such a great fighter. these days of super middleweights fighting at welter it may be hard for you YOUNG guys to understand. even lightly trained mantequilla barely filled his welterweight trunks.
matter of fact it hurts to hear he and curry mentioned in the same breath.
i would love to have seen curry in against cokes, muniz, griffith, lopez, hedge or even alfredo urbina. maybe the past always looks better to us dinosaurs but at least i have the advantage of having seen napoles train, spar, beat up lightheavyweights in the gym and ko his top rated contenders in person to be able to say the guy was one of the greatest i ever saw. i saw curry too...but i can't say the same about him....take it or leave it.
greg
Napoles was a great Welterweight (#10 all time in my opinion) and an even greater Lightweight & Light Welter despite never holding the title at those weights. He would have been competitve with anyone in history at 147 regardless if he wins or not.
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