Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

[old school student]

Hey hawk, i like that post.No fighter is above questioning, and this does make, healthy conversation. I wish you would have expounded on your thought at the end though, are you thinking he would have beaten all these guys or not?
You listed Robinson career highlights as Lamotta, Turpin, Basillio and Fullmer. Then admit that his resume was not the best, but still impressive. that's my point, exactly.
No matter Who we are judging in history, the one most single important bottom lying factor in judging a fighters greatness. Is HOW hard his compition levels was, and who he beat and who he lost too. So to really RANK anybody's greatness, is going to be on which level or Plateau (each person) feels their compition level was on. and where in their career they meet. I think to do this realistically you need to have in your mind, the levels you feel certain fighters belong on, you just can't guess on the fly "how good was this guy, haven't heard much about him", or else your really having no clear cut plateau's or echelon's established, to work with.
There are many great boxing mind's here, which have seen much more film than me, but i know without a doubt every middleweight from 1890 and on and who they fought and the records of each of the people at the time they fought, i'm not guessing how great i think this guy was, i already have clear cut plateau's established. i feel people were on, but everyone is sometimes moving and reorganizing a FEw people as we aquire more knowledge, the important think to to always stay open-minded and unbias.
On Boxrec.com is everyone's record you ever want to know that ever existed, with links to each fighter's name and record at the time of the fight. Now i've spent in excess of 150 hours of researching on here, this is how i can i know the records of EVERYONE, and every big fight that ever took place in a divison's long history. Tha't why i'm an old school STUDENT. Which is the how i created and established plateau's for fighters. Take a look, and have fun
Sugar rays COMPITION level wasn't on par with murder's row! In my minds eye! no way, I not even concerned with his losses post Maxim and 1st retirement. I love sugar ray and i think he had the best boxing skill of anyone, But that alone doesn't make him the best. I thought Turpin really SHOWED how to beat him more than anyone, This was really prime Ray! Some of these guys from murder's row where up the next level from turpin. Which is why i feel many of these guys WOULD beat him. So TKO 11, i can't give you all the strengths and weakness, of each because my film is limited, BUT i can clearly give you a clear cut echelon levels, which is going to "open" up a pandora's box for critisism, because i'm the only one hanging it out. But i know i'm the one right.
What everyones clear idea of middleweight differ's to each person but to me it's 168, down the super middle weight level USE this all the way back in history. So Fitz at 167 at heavyweight champ was a middleweight, which everyone considered him. Use any weight you want with sugar as long as it's pre 1st retirement, after all he's a middleweight.(this is with all sugar's compition level, for refence.)
Naturally a lot of these fighters lost to each other, getting "seasoned". similar to Lanford, Jeanette, mcvey, wills, trio. And some decsions were wrong but..
THIS is a 40 era list from fighters who fought similar guys:
Rocky Marciano (@ 188 really a light heavy/modern criuserweight.
Ezzard charles(It's really after he beats Marshall that he takes off and become's Who i'd consider 2nd best pound per pound in history, invinceable nearly, with greb being 1) Marshall beat him weighting 165(middleweight) in his prime, could ray? Look how far down he is?
Jimmy Bivins(Just after Ezzard. REALLY tough, again stayed too long obscuring his record)
Lloyd Marshall( A real supermiddle weight level 165) MOST underated of Murders row. had some seasoned losses early in career, stayed too LONG obscuring his greatness. BEAT EVERYONE Weighting under 167 quite clearly NO lightheavyweight. (Yarosz,Burley,Ezzard,carter,lamotta,holman,maxim, chase and floored a prime Bivins weighting 164, while you Already claimed him(bivins) a ridicoulous opponent for Sugar ray! CLEARLY Marshall is lightyears ahead of sugar ray at middleweight, look at the level of wins, It's obvious!
---------------------------------------------------
Jersey Joe Walcott Lightheavy(Great, tough, like moore enigmatic)
Harry kid Matthews lightheavy(Widely missed and ignored, his records' nearly spotless, Took his lumps against Booker/chase then its impeccable.. beat Basora,Marshall,Rex layne and then ezzard charles, loses to marciano and 3 times to a man 30lbs more than him, Layne beat Walcott at the time, so clearly this is around where he falls maybe even HIGHER but marshall and charles were long in the tooth)
Charley Burley( a real welterweight among light heavy imortality, FAR ahead of Sugar ray, look what Turpin did to a prime Sugar ray, Burley would better that effort, That was Turpins real 1st big fight, he was GREEN, imagine Burley. he'd crush him. CLEARLY More strong wins, than ray has and better pound per pound, maybe not as much pure skill, though)
Archie moore (clearly was better than lytell, a bit enigmatic like lytell, losing here and there but had BIG TIME wins over many People but not consistant as others)(can be a middle or lightheavy)
-----------------------------------------------
Jake Lamotta( Was a bad match with his short arms for robinson, but has a FAR stronger resume than ANY of these guys below. (Bosora,zivic,lytell,holman,janiro,yarosz,tibrio mitri, and CERDAN and sugar ray) That's impressive! Ray would have died to have this resume! Clearly you got to know they split each other out and Jakes' far ahead on, others fought.
Bert Lytell(beat holman,burley, bosora, and cocoa, falls here)
Holman williams (was just like ray a true welterweight climbing up the ranks a true 140lb, Yet He fought guys you think are to big for Ray, weighting the same as him, more big wins than ray has, by far)
Sugar ray robinson( Too start with how could he not fight Yarosz, when eveyone else did? Let me EDUCATE you on the myth of sugar ray Let's go step by step..
40 starts career
41 servo and zivic, great wins i have servo 10 @ welterweight!
42 servo, lamotto, jannazzo Great Lamotta a trophy! He's rollin
43 gets evened by lamotta, beats him, a faded 5'1'' armstong
44 a weak year Jannazzo
45 Bell, lamotta and AHH a step up, his first outside of jake and bam a controverly draw with Basora. Showing just which levels he's at @ the time, not able to win.
46 Promptly retreats back in class while others are going foward at the time!! fight lamotta again(a known quanity), jannazzo once again and yes bell, clearly going backwards where he started from. LOOK IT UP! It's fact!
47 a great win abrams!(look at the level he's in, but at least he fought him!)
48 again may have lost a close descion with Henry brimm(thanks Rocky111) a complete stiff, further indicating how liitle he's really come> A kid gavilin win (Gavilin is one of my most overated fighters no less)
49 Belloise
50 the faded aaron WADE 3 years out of retirement!, Bosora! Great finally! this is his first big win in years look at his level.
Olson nice! improving
51 Jake again, a bad matchup in styles. Mims; ok good
BAM exposed again on the next step up in class with a VERY GREEN turpin, FAR les experienced than ray, yet a systimatic demolishone job. Turpin became better latter in his career, he was green at this point!
52 Olson again, gRAZIANO(overated again), beats maxim!(benefit), That was somepeople's carreer's end. Enough to judge a career on, excluding all his other losses, this is a huge concession to put him this far based on that weak resume! It's really just his jake wins that earns it for him, to think he'd beat Burley is unthinkable. accord with who he struggled against, Maybe might beat Holman, but i doubt it really. REALLY!
Marcel Cerdan (To me he's just on the heals of Sugar ray, i'm not convinced, he may have been better, should have fought each other, would have been VERY CLOSE, far better than Basora, who he struggled with)
Eddie Booker ( The least developed and maybe raw of them, but a real killer)
------------------------------------------------
Jose Basora (The perfect support to my argument, he fought murders row opponents the same time i'm claiming, sugar should have been fighting them. In 45 he should have won, the fight with ray but instead the draw( like rocky111 the staff writer backes) . Yet Jose losses in "the same time frame" to all of murders row's opponent's. Which backs up my claim. Of what range ray was in at that time, of 45. Yes he(jose) does exact some revenge latter on holman. Holman took 3 out of first 4 fights. ( Jose has more big names on his own resume, than rays FOR the time period Pre 52.) Look for yourself he took on most of murders row, which Ray clearly completely AVOIDES.
Joe Carter ( Really neck to neck in with Basora, same level they fought a draw, clearly was in ray's weight class again but avoided)
jack Chase( beat many of murders row)
George Abrams( ray beats him)
AAron Wade (Sugar somehow gets him to fight, his last fight 3 years out of retirement? What's that all about?)
__________________________________________________ _
cocoa kid( Amazing owned Holman, yet real enigmatic)
carl olson(A GREAT RESUME, ahead of zale, should have fought each other)
Tony Zale(Should have fought Overlin in 41)
teddy Yarosz(Can't belelive didn't fight ray! what a chicken)
randy turpin
Ken Overlin
Kid Tunero
fritzie zivic
Al Hostak
Rocky Graziano
izzy jannazzo( rays regular doormat opponent)
SO EVERYONE THIS TOOK 4-5 HOURS TO COMPLIE
read it and realize, what i already know Sugar ray was overrated!!! go ON BOX.REC and discover for yourself, our little secret. You can't be the BEST if you don't fight the best! How can you support your argument ray is better than these guys! Your in a box, both Bosora and lamotta fought murders row, Yet your argument is RAY's so good it, it goes with out saying!! THATS a crock! Who did he beat Other than Lamotta that was great? Your in a box(i know it)! Basora fought a harder schedule and i'll still give ray, all the benefit of a doubt. You can't possible think he's better than burley, Who would most certainly be the best welterweight if you ranked him at that class! Look at the compition levels it's not close!
LAST I MUST SAY THIS on ray's behalf, i really think he never reached his full potential as a fighter, by not facing these guys! and retireing in 52'. If you think's he good now, he would have been much better had he went through the grinder with these guys, that's inevitable why he falls short of being the best, for THE VERY REASON! tHERE isn't much you can say but he could have...but he didn't! What's left to say? But there is a new book on Burley and Murders row coming out! Read it and realize, this was history toughest period of fighters! Without a doubt!!! From Overlin to Marciano the connections made in relative opponents.

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[No matter Who we are judging in history, the one most single important bottom lying factor in judging a fighters greatness. Is HOW hard his compition levels was, and who he beat and who he lost too.]]]]]]]
===================================

I fail to see the logic you use to pursue the above statement.

I use records too and have learned much through Boxrec. It's fine if you think Burley could beat Robby, obviously a few got to him, but your logic just doesn't hold water.

EX: The reason Fitz was considered a middleweight is because he was the middleweight champ when he beat Corbett, not because he weighed 167 or whatever he weighed for that fight. He would have been unable to defend his middle title at that weight. Some deluded folk still think Toney is a middleweight, when must of his championship career has been fought well above that division.

Almost all the fighters you claim that Ray failed to meet are either too big, out of his division, or not factors in Ray's prime. You seem to give Burley a lot of credence, but did you ever consider that his high manager turnover contributed much to his inability to land big fights? Burley was not a fearsome fighter, someone to be scared off, but he appears to be very difficult to work with in a time when title shots were rare things for good fighters to land.

[Sharkey]

believe that Robinson was #1 at middle based upon his defeating the quality men he defeated, when others while at middle defeated the same quality men, or quality middles, lightheavies and heavies. That cannot be the clincher for me.

You're damned if you do or don't go the way of looking at competition, but I don't think there is a way to measure the 'stack' of opponents to arrive at a ranking without having to discard the hypothetical 'head-to-head' of the two fighters (or more) in question.

Trying to figure if Robinson was better than Greb at 160 for example amounts to having to look at the record...and usually trying to imagine Greb substituted for one of Ray's opponents...which disregards that EVERY scenario and situation and punch you see Ray land on Jake for example is predicated on it being Jake, what Jake did the second before that, and the familiarity the two had. I am not in love with the notion of doing that.

And yet, how on earth can one judge one better than the other based on who they beat? Well, I for one woul dsay that in the comptetition segment as a fighter at 160, Greb's resume is filled with larger, more imposing fighters than Robinson's. But did Greb succeed against the large due to style? Maybe, But that style worked against men his own size as well.

Robinson beat Olson, Turpin, Fullmer, Basilio..indeed. He also lost to 3 of the 4. And even if we state that 2 in particular were excellent, do we also state Robinson wa snot at his best at 160...but what he was there was better than all...except for the times he lost at that weight?

Confusing. I suspect that when someone is looking to rate heavyweights, they do not limit themselves to one brilliant showing, back it with some other very good ones, and pan the losses as just one of those things.

In other words..ANY way it approached is supposition, benefit of the doubt, shining the light on the positive and attempting to ken the negative. For many, the negative becomes the 'rule' that defines their aptitude. For legends, the rule is the great performance that may be surrounded by losses or winning by razor-margins.

I think it is clear to me at least that any middleweight ranking must reflect that if Robinson could prevail against those he prevailed against, even while not being his particular absolute best, he is a good shot to prevail over any and all. But that doesn't mean he is the likely winner in a bout necessarily with other legends merely because of HIS particular upside.

After all, while I believe Robinson had it in him to beat any middleweight ever, and his resume proves he was among the top 3 best fighters ever at least based on record....there must be room to doubt him at 160 in the face of the resume of a Harry Greb.

No amount of eye-witness changes that when you match two very equal legends, what they did against another guy on a particular night has to be, but cannot be and shouldn't be isolated to reflect their limit of what they might do against each other.

[TKO11]

Given the amount of time you spent on your post, I don't want to sound dismissive of it, but a lot of what you are trying to put across loses its entire basis without analysis. You simply can't determine anything by looking at a guy's record. It tells you nothing about him. Going only by the records, Harry Greb was pretty questionable because of all the Ls and NDs and having such a low KO percentage. Meanwhile, it would appear that Larry Holmes was a legit title contender for Tyson in 88 because of the 'records' of all the men he had beaten, and he had only two career losses, both extremely close, to a hall-of-famer. But the record is totally misleading.

In order for you to suggest that Robinson is less great by missing these guys, you have to come up with a reasonable explanation of why you think his record would be any different had he fought them. For instance, you say that Burley would clearly CRUSH Ray. What exactly about his style brings you to that opinion? What weaknesses of Ray's is he going to exploit, and what strengths of his are Ray not going to be able to deal with?

Your post is loaded with assumptions that seem to be based on absolutely nothing but each fighter's success rate. That means zilch head-to-head.

One other question - you say Turpin provided the bllueprint on how to beat Ray (an unmotivated Ray expecting a walkover, mind you). If that is the case, why was he unable to repeat the performance in the rematch? If he showed Ray's weaknesses so clearly, why was Robinson able to adapt?

Being able to analyze a fighters place in the pantheon requires the knowledge of others in the pantheon you're comparing them to. And you can't do that by looking at records on the internet. You have to analyze the fighter, not his record.

[TKO11]

.....I think if anyone showed a blueprint on how to beat Robinson, it was Lamotta. He beat Ray cleanly once, was allegedly robbed in another, and two other fights of theirs were nip and tuck affairs. even the massacre saw Lamotta leading early, and fairly even through ten (though admittedly, Robinson immediately afterward sadi he was planning to use the "drag him out and drown him" fight-plan, which makes sense given Jake's overnight steams to make weight).

[JimmyShimmy]

So as far as a Championship REIGN, I see Hagler, Monzon and Hopkins as having superior reigns. That said, none had resume's that included as many HOFers that Robby defeated.

Always found such comments to be somewhat contradictive.

Great fights, great times, great era -- the 70's 'Ali' effect of reputation building.

Was it not perhaps Robinson's deficiencies as a fighter that led to the pedigree enhancing of Fullmer and Basilio as they each picked up victories against Ray?

'The Robinson who beat LaMotta would beat any Middleweight' -- dunno about that one. To me, Robinson aged very well -- as he grew older he did not lose an awful lot. Basilio, and Fullmer are always giving him problems, and even LaMotta gave him problems before succumbing.

Robinson's multiple looping hooks on a human punch bag in LaMotta looked great, but, I believe, should not fuel such a broad opinion.

These thoughts are all part of the recipe spawning off the universal consensus that Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest P4P and Welterweight fighter there ever was.

Robinson looks great on film at Middleweight so it's the natural reaction to assume he was that much better at WW. I think this estimation could be a tad 'off'.

Personally, I rate Napoles #1 at Welterweight.

I believe P4P in it's truest meaning is defeating fighter far bigger than yourself. The film imbalance is part of the problem. Greb is great, but what kind of great? How much did he really bend the rules etc -- we cannot form a personal opinion here.

Considering consistency and weight disadvantages Jimmy Wilde has been impressing me allot lately. Just over 6st for many fights and his record does not have a single loss without a legit excuse in 149 recorded bouts.

I could rate Wilde over Robinson without a problem.

Sharkey nicely underlining the fact everything is subjective -- don't get too passionate.

[hawk5ins]

Especially about your point about subjectivity.

And I do realize that the comment of mine you quoted could be seen as contradictory. Hopefully I explained myself clearly enough.

And I see the point about wins and losses contributing to a fighters reputation as a great or even very good. And styles certainly play a major part in one's success agianst another, whether they were in their primes or not (Taking the ALi theory a step farther, I see a prime Ali beating a Prime Frazier, but I see Joe giving Ali hell every time out.)

And regarding Sharks point about a fighters performance's agiasnt another fighter and comparing it to the fighter one is making an argument about: If I were to take the Robinson of the Turpin bout and match him with Burley of his absolute best, then I agree, I would take Burley (though not by a crush). Ray was in his prime as a Middleweight and before his retirement. Yet I don't beleive that was the best we ever saw of Ray at Middle. In his prime at that wiehgt? Yes. At his best? No.

Conversely how much should we read into Burely losing to Fritzie Zivic and going 2-1 with him where as Robby went 2-0 with a KO? Would it hold much bearing to state that a best version of SRR would crush the Burley who lost to Zivic?

Well Charlie certainly wasn't in his prime for the Zivic fights, just under two years as a pro to Zivic's nearly 6 years as a seasoned vet. But one could also point out that Robinson wasn't close to his either when he twice beat Zivic, who was one fight removed from reigning as the Welterweight champ.

I find it so interesting that Ray turned pro on the undercard of ZIvic Armstrong I, when Fritzie won the title and a year and 27 days later, Robinson was facing him back in the Garden and beat him. Hopefully this would be considered taking on tough competition!

But my point would be, that pointing to a fighters losing performance when he necesarily is not at his best and pitting him agianst a fighter when he is at their best, iwn't necessarily an accurate guage.

I think there are strong Arguments agianst Robinson being considered the best Middle ever and there are strong arguments that at his best at 160, a Prime Greb or a prime Monzon would beat him. I don't agree, but certainly the postion can be made and MANY would agree with it.

That said, I don't think that results in Robinson necessarily being over rated, as Most who rank him as the best of all time do so becuase they feel his prime was at Welterweight. His five chapionships at 160 are icing on that cake.

Just my take. Could be wrong.

[wildhawke11]

Old School
Please could you do us a favour ( i have heard others being asked this ) Leave some gaps between your long posts like Tko, Hawke and myself because it really makes hard work reading it. Please dont think i am being awkward but it really is a strain on my not so great eyesight.
Thanks

[hawk5ins]

To echo TKO, I also appreciate the time you put into your post. But to answer you question about:

"Hey hawk, i like that post.No fighter is above questioning, and this does make, healthy conversation. I wish you would have expounded on your thought at the end though, are you thinking he would have beaten all these guys or not?
You listed Robinson career highlights as Lamotta, Turpin, Basillio and Fullmer. Then admit that his resume was not the best, but still impressive. that's my point, exactly."

As I stated in my post, I think at his absolute peak at Middleweight, which would be IMO, the 6th Lamotta bout, I would take THAT Robinson over any middleweight in history.

So given that point, were I to rate the Middleweights Strictly on a who beats who, methodology, I would have Robby occupying my #1 position. I tend to combine methodologies when compiling lists and who beats who is heavily weighted and as a result, SRR, DOES get the #1 nod at 160 for me.

I do NOT think Robinson is overrated as pound for pound, I have him #1. At Wleterweight, his peak, his prime and his optimum weight division, I have him #1 as well.

Ray's Championship resume at 160 I do NOT feel is the best among other Middleweight champions. Who he holds victories over at 160, I think is hard pressed to equal, however, as a 5 time Middleweight champion, 3 of those reigns after a retirement and after his prime as a fighter at middle, he did lose the title on 4 occasions as well.

So as far as a Championship REIGN, I see Hagler, Monzon and Hopkins as having superior reigns. That said, none had resume's that included as many HOFers that Robby defeated.

If that wasn't clear before, I apologize.

And I also must take umbrage with the Burley would clearly crush Robinson comment. Where have we seen Burely "Crush" a Robinson level or even a level below, type of an opponent?

Burley was a fantastic and indeed, a great fighter, who definitely would pose problems for Robinson. But what assurances does anyone have that he would come out a victor in such a match and what would lead anyone to the conclusion that he would CRUSH, Robby?

That just seems to me to be a bit of a stretch that unfortunately doesn't enhance one's argument that Ray was over rated.

Again, an analysis of ANY fighter's career is in order. But complete dismissals of a fighter of Robinson's skills and accomplishments and to state he get's crushed by any fighter in and around his weight (What I am getting at is I have no issues with someone saying Ray get's crushed by Jack Dempsey straight up. But I don't see ANY fighter in history between 160 and 147, or there abouts, CRUSHING Robinson.), tends to bring up questions about the motives of those doing the analysis.

I'd also like to see your break down of how Ray matches up with Burley. That way, I can get a better understanding of why you think this is such an easy fight for him.

Thanks.

[Boxscribe]

Old School

I like the fact that you present an arguement against SRR being the greatest ever. I have had my doubts about his middleweight reign - but that's another story.

To suggest that Burley would crush him is stretching it a little and I am one of Burley's biggest fans. I too would have loved to have seen Robinson against Charley - and it almost happened - but we have to be content with the fact that Ray openly avoided Burley and maybe use this as a starting point for debate when questioning Ray's (often unquestioned) superiority - especially at middleweight.

I feel that Burley had a better than even chance of defeating Robinson - especially when Ray signed for the fight in 1946 and Burley was a light-middle tangling with light-heavies.

As far as the other fighters on your list go - the 'Black Murderers' Row' - I honestly don't think that there was anything in Robinson fighting them (the same can be said of a Burley match). For most of them the timing was not right - i.e. they were too old for Ray and possibly on the way out as he was coming up or they were too heavy.

I think these points have already been made here as far as Holman Williams, Lloyd Marshall, Bivins, Cocoa Kid etc., are concerned, so I wont go there. Lytell is a possiblility for Robinson - as was another great fighter that SRR avoided - Artie Towne - but Ray had the smarts to avoid anyone that would trouble him or make him look bad - especially when there was little or no money in it and that is probably the case for most of these black fighters when it came to fighting each other.

Ray had the 'star quality' and the skill to be a favourite with the crowds - and used this to his advantage - while most of the other fighters you mentioned had to fight amongst themselves to earn a living. Very sad, but true.

Robinson avoided other fighters - smart business if you ask me - yet this cannot take away from his great record and his accomplishments. It may - and probably should - raise questions about the fighters not on his record, but the same could possibly be said of other ranked welterweights and middleweights who didn't tangle with Burley and co.

Another point: In one of your posts you referred to Eddie Booker as being the 'raw' one of the group. I have to disagree. Booker was - IMO - only a step behind Burley when it came to talent, ability or skill and it is sad that he was lost to the game at such an early age.

You also mentioned a new book about Burley and the Murderers' Row. Where did you hear about this?

[Benny the kid]

I'm in jimmy' s camp, i was a firm naysayer, still learning but i always Robinson was the best, going with the crowd. I looked at the stuff old school explained and a few things jumped out to me. The biggest is really 1945, clearly ray does go back in compition level, while Lamotta, and Bosora go foward strarting to fight murders row. Looking at it, from a far. i'm leaning towards old school's statement. THEY did have better resume's, it's hard to argue. Ray beat them is where i'm coming from, but they fought harder men! Which really clears the air as to his argument! he did avoid even yarosz who was white. Yet lamotta and Bosora fight him! The more i REALLY look at it, i'm starting to think old school is dead right! can we assume a Burley who beat Ezzard wouln't walk right through sugar, well to be honest based on who they fought and beat. He presents a lot stronger case than me, than as a sugar fan can say. OH sugar ray would beat him and charles. It's beyond reproach? That's no much of an argument to make, Clearly looking at these ability levels, you made old school, charley could hang with ezzard and lightheavys, could Sugar ray? i'd be forced into saying no!, because he did get beat by Turpin, WHO WAS young which is why he got the rematch win. The more i follow your logic, old school the more i realize where your coming from. And as a Naysayer, i'm really second guessing myself! Ray resume did have big holes in 45-46 range he really didn't move up in level and did flounder with turpin, when he DID move up, you present a stronger case than i can make. I'm backing you up! Your apparently well researched and clearly a bit unbias maybe? Give ray some benefit in some cases. Your not Demoaning him by claiming he had the best skill. You do have me in a box, what can i say?My arguement is weak. Maybe this is the reason he lost so much in the 50's?

[hawk5ins]

They fought twice in 1942 and Charles defeated him on both occasions.

And while Ezzard did outweigh Burley on both occasions, he was fighting in at or around the middleweight weight limit. Ezzard was not anywhere near the Light heavy or Heavyweight limit for either of those fights.

And if you were meaning Archie Moore, understand that Moore himself was fighting at Middleweight when they met. There was roughly a 6 pound weight difference.

Hawk

[StingerKarl]

Robby had the best skills I have ever seen, but that does not necessarily make him the greatest fighter ever.
Joe Louis is my pick as the greatest ever.
I have Carlos Monzon as the greatest middleweight ever, but have no problem with the folks that have Ray the best welter and middle of all time.

[mike21]

the man who started this post felt robinson best puond for pound- which a gree- thats not overrating someone. if somebody picks a wilde or greb thats no problem herebut i would not neccarily try to denigrate these guys- its a good post-just nedd time to read it throughly.bye

[gregbeyer]

in rays favor when people call him the best are some viable facts.
a. he had a long career(1940-1965)
b. he scored a lot of ko's
c. that long win streak pre-lamotta
d. that long win streak post lamotta pre turpin
e.beat both lamotta and turpin in returns
f.one stop in 25 yrs.( freaky one vs. maxim)

styles make fights but for credentials its hard to top robby.
greg

[Benny the kid]

That was my mistake on charles, sorry. I'm still learning. To me old school, you many have too many arguments, going on at once. It seems weight limits weren't regulally enforced back then, even when people had the middleweight title. Many were at, as you say 165 range, Which is still a middlweight albeit SUPER. But if we use a modern version many like Greb, Ketchel and Dick tiger wouldn't be a middleweight (on all the lists). So i follow your logic of 168 as a more realistist range, that is one debate, brought up.
But if i may, give you some advice. It's seem's you have alot of roundabout support, without real commitment especially from these staff writer, who all seem to be backing you in one way or another, but unwilling to commit, maybe fearing the backlash your taking. Clearly Sharkey and me think ray Maynot be the best, but skilled, (where i moved to)
The single BIGGEST thing, you have going for you is this...If you can't give credit for who you beat, what are you fighting for? Clearly EVERYONE seems to agree on one point, ray AVOIDED some guy's, everyone backs you on that. With your own logic you give credit for the levels of resume, each guy had. This is the very place you force us into a corner, guys's like tko11 and me! We beleive sugar could beat, Lytell, Marshall, holman and burley. While you show just why these guys who did fight them(moore, charles,marshall,holman) get more credit than those that didn't.
By this logic, me Tko 11 and others like myself, only have.. could and should beat Them.., you prove what good fighter did, if you didn't. That's where my argument gets weak. Giving ray a chance for thing's he maybe could do, while your clearly looking at what others did do. Lamotta may have, a better resume, than rays. When i looked. Its hard to give credit for what didn't happen. That's where i'm painted into a corner.
I think if you can get JUST ONE, of these staff writers to back you that at LEAST some of these guys Lytell, holman, burley or marshall (the middleweight's list) could beat robinson.It would lend you some real support!
Certain everyone stated he avoided these guys yet, we all think he's better than them? This really seems a bit contridictory, doesn't it. Maybe we are giving a great disservice to these guys for not accknowledging there greatness. But Tko11 i do think you can tell a lot about a fighter by who they beat! I mean that's everything, isn't it? otherwise shadow boxers would be the best. I didn't get where your coming from?

[Dan1213]

Eddie Booker is greatly underrated. Here is a link to his record and bio by Charley Burley biographer Harry Otty.

www.ibroresearch.com/Boxi..._eddie.htm

[gregbeyer]

going over all these posts again. lot of time put into this subject.

one thing to consider is that for most of his career ray was in the drivers seat. when fights were proposed he was mightily aware of his bargaining position. others delved into murderers row not because they were braver than robinson. they did it because they had to to be able to get at robinson. in a 25 yr career and being the DRAW most of the time, if not all, you are bound to side step certain guys over weight, over your cut or maybe even venue or the opponents ability to draw a big gate.

10 guys in a 25 yr career is not that bad especially when as it has been pointed out, most were larger men.

like danny said boxing is a business and robby was a savy businessman. had he known that over 40 yrs after his last fight a controversy would erupt questioning his heart perhaps that would have been enough for him to take on burley et all. at the time he may have felt it prudent not to.

i also rate napoles very high at welter but in truth had carlos ortiz not thought it prudent to avoid napoles at lightweight jose may be better remembered as a great at 135. these things happen in a career. to come back 40 yrs later and claim srr avoided guys because of a lack of fortitude...well i just don't think you can do that with robby. like TKO said ray matches up well to anybody whether he fought them or not.
greg

[Benny the kid]

You know. We should start a new topic, and called it "how good is murders row" That's what this is all leads into.
Could Booker beat robinson? I'm clueless, about it. Yet i want to know.

[Benny the kid]

Wow that link was awesome, i'm going to find a book tommorrow. It's states that Booker "pleas for a titlefight fell on deaf ears" Who are they referring to at the time, Was it Sugar ray? It looks like these guys were really blackballed. Where they that good, everyone avoided them? wow, burley was so good, even booker avoided him! Thats amazing. I bet Charley Burley was a badass. Says Booker was a victim to rasism, in boxing. So who was avoiding him? Beside ray, was it lamotta? Or are they saying Sugar was drawing the color line on his own people, like langford claimed Jack johnson did? Confused.

[hawk5ins]

Benny, Eddie Booker was retired by early 1944. He had been a full time middleweight since around 1940.

Tony Zale became NBA middleweight Champ in 1940 and in 41 gained universal recognition. In 1942 the title went on ice due to the war. By the time he was back fighting in 46' Booker had retired. Prior to induction, Zale took on Abrams in defense of the World Middleweight champ and then former Light heavyweight champ Billy Conn who a few bouts earleir had faced heavyweight Champ Joe Louis. So it wasn't like Zale was ONLY taking easy bouts and avoiding everyone else.

Robinson didn't become Welterweight champ until 46, also after Booker had already retired. So Robby was not denying him a shot a the title at any weight.

And other than LaMotta with who Ray had built a rivalry with, Robinson, a welterweight, wasn't consistently facing ranked middles until at least 1945, again, after Booker had retired.

I'm not stating that had Eddie still been around, a match would have been made between the two. But for anyone to state Robinson avoided Booker, isn't really that fair or accurate.

Hawk

[Monte Cox]

I find this thread ridiculous.

This is my reply:

The Incomparable Sugar Ray Robinson Named Greatest Fighter By IBRO

There's an old saying: "When ten men tell you you're drunk, lie down"

-M.

[vic_roc_13]

I see lots of names that Ray did not fight on Burley
's resume!Chase , Williams, Marshall , Bivins, Moore ,Charles, Lytell, Cocoa kid

[Senya13]

I find this thread ridiculous.
This is my reply:
The Incomparable Sugar Ray Robinson Named Greatest Fighter By IBRO
There's an old saying: "When ten men tell you you're drunk, lie down"

Just because it was voted by IBRO doesn't mean much. As an example, Packey McFarland was voted #16 at lightweight, and Jack Blackburn #12. Now, I actually *have* done some research on both, and such rankings are ridiculous to me. Not only McFarland should have been much-much higher, but Blackburn shouldn't have been ranked at lightweight at all (just because the newspapers were calling him lightweight, doesn't mean he was one, usually scaling 140 pounds or heavier), and I wouldn't rank him that high based on his performances.

[hawk5ins]

To respond to the claim from this thread that Robby ducked everyone in the Black Murderer's Row.

It's basically a timeline whihc I do feel, sheds light on the why's, when's and if's of potential matchups.

Blanket "He avoided so an so when they fought at around the same time" I don't think tells a whole lot.

It needs to be broken down.

This may not be perfect, but here is what I came up with a few years back

(I List the year, beginning when Ray turned pro, who he fought and who the others faced and where they were in their careers. This goes through 1952 when all had retired or were simply no longer a logical opponent for Ray.):

1940 starts career as a Ligtweight in October of 1940.

Cocoa Kid- 10th year as a pro (1930), fighting at Welterweight
Holman Williams-8th year as a pro (1932) fighting at Welter and slightly above. 1-1-1 with Izzy Jannanzo
Jack Chase-turned pro in1936 fighting at Middlweight. Inactive in 38, 39 and 40.
Charley Burley- 4th year as a pro (1936)-fighting at Middleweight. Lost to Bivins in Jimmy’s first year as a pro.
Lloyd Marshall –4th year as a pro(1936), fighting at and above Middleweight limit.
Ezzard Charles- Began Pro Career in March as a Middleweight.
Archie Moore-4th year (1936) as a pro fighting at Middlweight
Jimmy Bivins-Began pro Career in January as a Middlweight
Bert Lytell-Didn’t turn pro until 1944
Aaron TIGER Wade –5th year as a pro Figgting at welter and Middle
Kid Tunero-11th year as a pro (1929), fighting at Middlweight
Joe Carter-Didn’t trun pro until 1942
Eddie Booker- 5th year as a pro (1935), fighting at Middlweihgt.

1941- Sammy Angott, Marty Servo and Fritzie Zivic (The same Zivic who won the Welterweight crown From Armstrong in the main event on Ray’s pro debut. A year and 27 days later)

Cocoa Kid-12-3-1 with 1 ND. Welter and Middleweight. Lost to Izzy Jananzzo for the second time. D with Holman Williams
Holman Williams-13-1 Wleter and Middle. Wins over Basora and a D with Cocoa Kid
Jack Chase- Returned after 3 ½ year layoff.
Charley Burley-8-0 all at middleweight.
Lloyd Marshall –4-1 all at or above 160
Ezzard Charles-8-1 all at or over Middleweight limit
Archie Moore-Middleweight
Jimmy Bivins-Competing at LH & Heavy
Bert Lytell- Not a pro yet
Aaron TIGER Wade –2-2 Welter and Middle
Kid Tunero-a win over Basora
Joe Carter-Not yet a pro
Eddie Booker-went 1-1-1 with Shorty Hogue

1942- Wins over Zivic again (stops him), Angott again, Servo agian, Lamotta (began Career 5 month’s after Robby’s pro debut in Mar …………1941), Jannazzo Twice,


Cocoa Kid-13-2 Welter and Middle. Loss to Jackie Wilson and 3 wins over Holman Williams
Holman Williams-8-5. 3 losses to Burely and 2 to Cocoa Kid as well as a single win over both Burley and Kid
Jack Chase-Lost to Archie Moore
Charley Burley-13-4. 3-1 with Holman Williams, Lost to Llyod Marshall. 02 with Ezzard Charles, Ko’d heavyweight Jd Turner, who was ……………………..a .500 pug. All fights were at Middle.
Lloyd Marshall –7-1 Loss to Booker win over Burley.
Ezzard Charles-12 fights. All but 1 (one of his two wins over Burley) were over 160 pounds.
archie moore-Middleweight
Jimmy Bivins LH & Heavy
Bert Lytell-Not a pro yet
Aaron TIGER Wade –10-0 at Middle against moderate comp.
Kid Tunero-2 losses to Holman Williams and a win over 19 bout Ezzard Charles. Tunero who had been a pro 13 years to Ez’s 2,had ……………….114 bouts under his belt when he faced Charles.
Joe Carter-turned pro at Middleweight
Eddie Booker-beat Hogue and Jannazo drew with Archie Moore. All at Middle or slightly above

1943-Year cut short (Aug) due to Military service. Lost to LaMotta, Jackie Wilson (who holds wins over Cocoa Kid, Ceferino Garcia and Tommy Bell) and a 5’5 1/2 “ faded Henry Armstrong (Ray took the fight to get Hank a decent payday)


Cocoa Kid-9-3-1 A draw Burley and a loss to second year pro Joe Carter.
Holman Williams-11-3-0 with 1 NC. 2 Wins over 2nd year pro Carter and wins over Booker and Belloise. Loses to Tunero, Basora and ……………………………Cocoa Kid
Jack Chase- Went 1-0-1 with Lloyd Marshall, 1-2 with Archie Moore, beat Eddie Booker and Aaron Wade, lost to Burley.
Charley Burley-4-0-1 with 1 NC Drew with Cocoa Kid and NC with Williams. Beat wade and Chase.
Lloyd Marshall – 8-3-1 all at middle or LH. Wins over Charles, Losses to Bivins, Chase and Williams
Ezzard Charles-0-2 Losses to Bivins and Marshall at Lightheavy (served in military until 46’)
archie moore-Middleweight
Jimmy Bivins LH & Heavy
Bert Lytell-Not a pro yet
Aaron TIGER Wade –7-2 Losses to Burley and Chase and a Win over Archie Moore at Middle. Caught Moore on the right night.
Kid Tunero-Antother win over Williams at Middle.
Joe Carter-2nd year pro. Lost to Williams, Beat slowing down Cocoa kid.
Eddie Booker-Lost to Chase and Willams. Ko’d Harry kid Matthews . Fighting over the Middleweight limit.

1944 (Discharged from the military.) First bout in 14 months was against Janannzo again.


Cocoa Kid-2-1-1 1NC. Discharged from Military D with Williams and a Loss to Wade. Beginning of the end.
Holman Williams- 14-2-3 wins over Marshall, Basora, Tunero and 2 over Chase. Draws with Carter, Basora and Kid, Losses to Booker and ……………………………..Marshall
Jack Chase-19 fights Middle or above, Lost 9 , 4 times to Holman Williams, to Burley, Cocoa Kid and Lloyd Marshall . beat and drew …………………………………with Wade.
Charley Burley-8-0 wins over Chase, Wade and his big win over Archie Moore.
Lloyd Marshall –11-1. Loss to Williams. Wins over Lamotta, Williams, Maxim, Chase and Carter. All at Middle or LH.
Ezzard Charles-Military duty
archie moore-Middle Lihgt Heavy. Lost Burley, Chase, Wade and Booker
Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
Bert Lytell-Pro debut at Middleweight
Aaron TIGER Wade –2-4-1. The wheels start coming off. Losses to Burley, Chase, Willams and Carter and a draw against Chase. Win …………………….Cocoa Kid who was beginning his slide as well.
Kid Tunero- and L at Middle to Williams.
Joe Carter—Lost twice to Lloyd Marshall, beat Aaaron Wade, Drew with Williams and beat Cocoa Kid
Eddie Booker-fighting at LH. KO’d Archie Moore and Decisioned Holman Williams. Retired in 44 due to EYE issues.

1945- Tommy Bell, George Costner, Lamotta again, a Draw with Basora (very close bout) and a win over Lamotta again

(Jose Basora began his career in 1939 fighting at both Welterweight and Middleweight. In 45, he was a full fledged Middle. Basora held a win over Lamotta and held him to a draw when Jose had roughly 40 bouts under his belt and Lamotta had been a pro for a year and 2 and 3 mos. Respectively. Other than Lamotta, with whom Ray had a profitable rivalry with, Ray was not consistently facing middleweights by 1945. After the Basora bout, you saw Robby taking on more middleweights while at the same time angling for a shot at the Welterweight crown.)


Cocoa Kid-6-6 with 1 NC. Ko’d by Archie Moore, 2-3 with Carter. 1-1 with Willams
Holman Williams-15-2-1 fghting at Middle and Light heavy. Wins over Moore, Carter, Kid, Lytell and Burley. Losses to Moore and Kid
Jack Chase-1-3
Charley Burley-6-1. Loss to Willams wins over Wade and Carter
Lloyd Marshall – 5-2 Now campaigning exclusively at Light heavy. Two losses to Moore.
Ezzard Charles-Military duty
archie moore-Light heavy. Lost to Willams and Bivins who was already at Heavyweight.
Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
Bert Lytell 2nd Year as a pro.lost to Lamotta at Middle. Lost and drew with Williams
Aaron TIGER Wade –3-1 Loss to Burley and a win over 2nd year pro Lytell
Kid Tunero-no significant fights
Joe Carter- went 1-2 with Cocoa Kid, lost to Wilams and Burely.
Eddie Booker-retired

1946- Angott again, Janannzo again, Levine and FINALLY a shot at the welterweight crown where Servo BLATANTLY avoided Ray and vacated the title. Ray decisioned Tommy Bell to win the vacant crown. Not sure how FINALLY getting a title shot is “taking steps backwards”, but…….


Cocoa Kid-4-3, 2 losses to Lytell.
Holman Williams-7-4. Loses to Lamotta, Baroudi, Cerdan and Lytell. Win over 2nd year pro Satterfield
Jack Chase-5-2 against soft opp at lightheavy outside of a Draw with Archie Moore.
Charley Burley-5-0 win over Lytell
Lloyd Marshall –1-2 KO’d by Charles LH
Ezzard Charles-returned from military duty. All future fights are at LH or above.
archie moore-LH-lost to Charles
Jimmy Bivins-heavy
Bert Lytell- beats faded versions of Williams and Cocoa Kid Loses to Burley
Aaron TIGER Wade 0-1 Loss to Williams by Ko that set off short retirement.
Kid Tunero-no significant bouts
Joe Carter-didn’t fight.
Eddie Booker-Retired

1947-Georgie Abrams, Defenses against Chuck Taylor and Jimmy Doyle and a non title bout against Jackie Wilson.


Cocoa Kid-6-5 A complete shell.
Holman Williams -3-4-1. Clearly past his prime now. Losses to Brimm and Basora.
Jack Chase- 0-3-0 1 NC. Ko’s by Archie Moore at Light heavy
Charley Burley-1-1 Loss to Lytell
Lloyd Marshall 1-2 Ko’d again by Charles. LH
Ezzard Charles-LH & Heavy
archie moore-LH & Heavy lost to Charles
Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
Bert Lytell-11-1 lost to Moore. Beats fading Burley.
Aaron TIGER Wade –return in late 47 and goes 1-2. Retires for next three years
Kid Tunero-no significant bouts 4 losses 1 to Cyrille Delannoit
Joe Carter 0-1 retired
Eddie Booker-retired

1948-Defense against Docusen. Non title win over Brimm. (let’s remember, Brimm did hold a win over that stiff Holman Williams a year earlier) and a win over the some-how “overrated” Kid Gavilan. A step back I suppose?

Cocoa Kid- 0-1. retired.
Holman Williams 0-2 ko’d by Basora retired.
Jack Chase-retired while fighting at Lightheavy.
Charley Burley-1-0
Lloyd Marshall –2-0
Ezzard Charles-LH & Heavy
archie mooreLh & Heavy. Lost to Charles
Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
Bert Lytell-12-2-1 win over Basora
Aaron TIGER Wade -retired
Kid Tunero- 1 loss, 1 drw and he retired
Joe Carter-retired
Eddie Booker-retired

1949- A close bout Draw with Brimm (fighters do have off nights or how else do we explain all of the losses suffered by the Murder’s row fighters?) Non title win over Belloise, A defense against that “stiff” Kid Gavilan.


Cocoa Kid-Retired
Holman Williams –retired
Jack Chase-retired
Charley Burley-1-1
Lloyd Marshall –3-3 Ko’d by Bob Murphy. LH
Ezzard Charles-Heavy
archie moore- LH & Heavy
Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
Bert Lytell-7-5-2 over Middleweight limit bouts Lost to Harold Johnson
Aaron TIGER Wade-retired
Kid Tunero-retired
Joe Carter-retired
Eddie Booker-retired

1950 -Easy Ko over comebacking Aaron Wade, (who in truth had been a pretty much shot fighter the last 3 years of his career before retiring in 47. His only significant win was over an equally shot Cocoa Kid.), easy Ko over Costner again, , Defense over Charlie Fusari, Wins Penn State Middle title with win over Villemain, defense of that title with easy ko over Basora, which put the “shot” stamp on him. A Ko of Bobo Olsen, another win over Villemain via KO and the Van Dam body blow.

Cocoa Kid-Retired
Holman Williams retired
Jack Chase-retired
Charley Burley-3-0 retired
Lloyd Marshall –5-3-1. Fighting at LH and heavy. Ko’d by Cockell
Ezzard Charles-Heavy
archie moore LH & Heavy
Jimmy Bivins-heavy
Bert Lytell –3-3 1 NC Loss to Moore Over middleweight limit fights
Aaron TIGER Wade –Ko’d by SRR. retired
Kid Tunero-retired
Joe Carter-retired
Eddie Booker-retired

1951-Wins World Middleweight title form Jake Lamotta, Holly Mims, The European tour, a loss to Turpin (clearly Robby took him light and it cost him the win.) Return bout 2 months later, Ray Ko’d him in 10.

Cocoa Kid-Retired
Holman Williams-retired
Jack Chase-retired
Charley Burley-retired
Lloyd Marshall –0-3 ko’d in each bout. One bout at LH against Olson, in which he was ko’d in 5. Retired
Ezzard Charles-Heavy
archie moore LH & Heavy
Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
Bert Lytell-2-1 LH retired.
Aaron TIGER Wade -retired
Kid Tunero-retired
Joe Carter-retired
Eddie Booker-retired

1952 –Defense against Bobo Olson, 3rd round ko over former champ Graziano, and the Maxim loss at 175. Ray retired for 2 and ½ years following that loss.

Cocoa Kid-Retired
Holman Williams-retired
Jack Chase-Retired
Charley Burley-retired
Lloyd Marshall -retired
Ezzard Charles-Heavy
archie moore Light heavy and Heavy Beats Maxim one bout removed form Robinson losing to Maxim.
Jimmy Bivins-Heavy
Bert Lytell-Retired
Aaron TIGER Wade- retired
Kid Tunero-retired
Joe Carter-retired
Eddie Booker-retired

Hawk

[JLP 6]

Great post Hawk.

What else needs to be said.

[phlboxarc]

top notch stuff Hawk. Jackie Wilson, Costner,Tommy Bell were considered the Black Murderers Row of the welters back then, and now by fight researchers, and of course Gavilan was one of the best. I beleive Robinson would have boxed most (if not all) if they could guarantee the very large purses that he would get facing LaMotta, Zivic, Angott, Basora. They (Burley, Booker, Chase, Williams, etc.) really had no gate magnatism and there were no nationally syndicated columnists demanding Robinson fight them. So Ray, being the smart businessman that he was looked for greener pastures without having to take high risk bouts for small money.

[GorDoom]

I agree with Monte, this has to be one of the dumbest threads EVER on this board. To question Robinson's greatness is ridiculous. You guys are like old women bickering during a canasta game.

You nit pik everything. Why? How can anybody argue the worthiness of Robinson as one of the TRUE all time greats??? You must be the same dupes that thought Roy was the greatest ever & he would whack out Louis, Marciano & Robinson....

Well, how did that work out for you geniuses of the Squared Circle???

You guys make me wince over your obtusness....

GorDoom

[hawk5ins]

I have never bickered with an old woman while playing an obtuse game of canasta.

Of course I agree that arguing that SRR was not worthy of the greatness he has been aforded, is rather silly and should have been ignored, especially with the broad based stroke that was used here.

But given there were names that were thrown out, stating Ray had ducked or purposefully avoided, in an attempt to degrade his legend, I thought (at the time), to lay out some details.

I agree it was probably unecessary as Ray truly needs no defending......but I thought I'd give it a whirl just the same to see if there was any validity.

But to your point, the monotonous, painstaking research led me to the same conclusion I had all along.

So Yeah....I wasted time, and bandwith there.

Nothing my wife doesn't tell me every day.

Hawk

[Sharkey]

I have no problems with a website being a vehicle to tell me what I am 3 years later. Dovetails nicely with the rest of my day, week, month, year, life

I don't even know how to play Canasta. I hear that word and each time I think of the Looney Toons character (first name or, nickname, "Nasty")Daffy Duck (as sheriff drip-a-long Daffy, with "Comic Relief" side-kick Porky Pig) refers to as "Homber" in the classic cartoon short.