Hey hawk, i like that post.No fighter is above questioning, and this does make, healthy conversation. I wish you would have expounded on your thought at the end though, are you thinking he would have beaten all these guys or not?
You listed Robinson career highlights as Lamotta, Turpin, Basillio and Fullmer. Then admit that his resume was not the best, but still impressive. that's my point, exactly.
No matter Who we are judging in history, the one most single important bottom lying factor in judging a fighters greatness. Is HOW hard his compition levels was, and who he beat and who he lost too. So to really RANK anybody's greatness, is going to be on which level or Plateau (each person) feels their compition level was on. and where in their career they meet. I think to do this realistically you need to have in your mind, the levels you feel certain fighters belong on, you just can't guess on the fly "how good was this guy, haven't heard much about him", or else your really having no clear cut plateau's or echelon's established, to work with.
There are many great boxing mind's here, which have seen much more film than me, but i know without a doubt every middleweight from 1890 and on and who they fought and the records of each of the people at the time they fought, i'm not guessing how great i think this guy was, i already have clear cut plateau's established. i feel people were on, but everyone is sometimes moving and reorganizing a FEw people as we aquire more knowledge, the important think to to always stay open-minded and unbias.
On Boxrec.com is everyone's record you ever want to know that ever existed, with links to each fighter's name and record at the time of the fight. Now i've spent in excess of 150 hours of researching on here, this is how i can i know the records of EVERYONE, and every big fight that ever took place in a divison's long history. Tha't why i'm an old school STUDENT. Which is the how i created and established plateau's for fighters. Take a look, and have fun
Sugar rays COMPITION level wasn't on par with murder's row! In my minds eye! no way, I not even concerned with his losses post Maxim and 1st retirement. I love sugar ray and i think he had the best boxing skill of anyone, But that alone doesn't make him the best. I thought Turpin really SHOWED how to beat him more than anyone, This was really prime Ray! Some of these guys from murder's row where up the next level from turpin. Which is why i feel many of these guys WOULD beat him. So TKO 11, i can't give you all the strengths and weakness, of each because my film is limited, BUT i can clearly give you a clear cut echelon levels, which is going to "open" up a pandora's box for critisism, because i'm the only one hanging it out. But i know i'm the one right.
What everyones clear idea of middleweight differ's to each person but to me it's 168, down the super middle weight level USE this all the way back in history. So Fitz at 167 at heavyweight champ was a middleweight, which everyone considered him. Use any weight you want with sugar as long as it's pre 1st retirement, after all he's a middleweight.(this is with all sugar's compition level, for refence.)
Naturally a lot of these fighters lost to each other, getting "seasoned". similar to Lanford, Jeanette, mcvey, wills, trio. And some decsions were wrong but..
THIS is a 40 era list from fighters who fought similar guys:
Rocky Marciano (@ 188 really a light heavy/modern criuserweight.
Ezzard charles(It's really after he beats Marshall that he takes off and become's Who i'd consider 2nd best pound per pound in history, invinceable nearly, with greb being 1) Marshall beat him weighting 165(middleweight) in his prime, could ray? Look how far down he is?
Jimmy Bivins(Just after Ezzard. REALLY tough, again stayed too long obscuring his record)
Lloyd Marshall( A real supermiddle weight level 165) MOST underated of Murders row. had some seasoned losses early in career, stayed too LONG obscuring his greatness. BEAT EVERYONE Weighting under 167 quite clearly NO lightheavyweight. (Yarosz,Burley,Ezzard,carter,lamotta,holman,maxim, chase and floored a prime Bivins weighting 164, while you Already claimed him(bivins) a ridicoulous opponent for Sugar ray! CLEARLY Marshall is lightyears ahead of sugar ray at middleweight, look at the level of wins, It's obvious!
Jersey Joe Walcott Lightheavy(Great, tough, like moore enigmatic)
Harry kid Matthews lightheavy(Widely missed and ignored, his records' nearly spotless, Took his lumps against Booker/chase then its impeccable.. beat Basora,Marshall,Rex layne and then ezzard charles, loses to marciano and 3 times to a man 30lbs more than him, Layne beat Walcott at the time, so clearly this is around where he falls maybe even HIGHER but marshall and charles were long in the tooth)
Charley Burley( a real welterweight among light heavy imortality, FAR ahead of Sugar ray, look what Turpin did to a prime Sugar ray, Burley would better that effort, That was Turpins real 1st big fight, he was GREEN, imagine Burley. he'd crush him. CLEARLY More strong wins, than ray has and better pound per pound, maybe not as much pure skill, though)
Archie moore (clearly was better than lytell, a bit enigmatic like lytell, losing here and there but had BIG TIME wins over many People but not consistant as others)(can be a middle or lightheavy)
Jake Lamotta( Was a bad match with his short arms for robinson, but has a FAR stronger resume than ANY of these guys below. (Bosora,zivic,lytell,holman,janiro,yarosz,tibrio mitri, and CERDAN and sugar ray) That's impressive! Ray would have died to have this resume! Clearly you got to know they split each other out and Jakes' far ahead on, others fought.
Bert Lytell(beat holman,burley, bosora, and cocoa, falls here)
Holman williams (was just like ray a true welterweight climbing up the ranks a true 140lb, Yet He fought guys you think are to big for Ray, weighting the same as him, more big wins than ray has, by far)
Sugar ray robinson( Too start with how could he not fight Yarosz, when eveyone else did? Let me EDUCATE you on the myth of sugar ray Let's go step by step..
40 starts career
41 servo and zivic, great wins i have servo 10 @ welterweight!
42 servo, lamotto, jannazzo Great Lamotta a trophy! He's rollin
43 gets evened by lamotta, beats him, a faded 5'1'' armstong
44 a weak year Jannazzo
45 Bell, lamotta and AHH a step up, his first outside of jake and bam a controverly draw with Basora. Showing just which levels he's at @ the time, not able to win.
46 Promptly retreats back in class while others are going foward at the time!! fight lamotta again(a known quanity), jannazzo once again and yes bell, clearly going backwards where he started from. LOOK IT UP! It's fact!
47 a great win abrams!(look at the level he's in, but at least he fought him!)
48 again may have lost a close descion with Henry brimm(thanks Rocky111) a complete stiff, further indicating how liitle he's really come> A kid gavilin win (Gavilin is one of my most overated fighters no less)
50 the faded aaron WADE 3 years out of retirement!, Bosora! Great finally! this is his first big win in years look at his level.
Olson nice! improving
51 Jake again, a bad matchup in styles. Mims; ok good
BAM exposed again on the next step up in class with a VERY GREEN turpin, FAR les experienced than ray, yet a systimatic demolishone job. Turpin became better latter in his career, he was green at this point!
52 Olson again, gRAZIANO(overated again), beats maxim!(benefit), That was somepeople's carreer's end. Enough to judge a career on, excluding all his other losses, this is a huge concession to put him this far based on that weak resume! It's really just his jake wins that earns it for him, to think he'd beat Burley is unthinkable. accord with who he struggled against, Maybe might beat Holman, but i doubt it really. REALLY!
Marcel Cerdan (To me he's just on the heals of Sugar ray, i'm not convinced, he may have been better, should have fought each other, would have been VERY CLOSE, far better than Basora, who he struggled with)
Eddie Booker ( The least developed and maybe raw of them, but a real killer)
Jose Basora (The perfect support to my argument, he fought murders row opponents the same time i'm claiming, sugar should have been fighting them. In 45 he should have won, the fight with ray but instead the draw( like rocky111 the staff writer backes) . Yet Jose losses in "the same time frame" to all of murders row's opponent's. Which backs up my claim. Of what range ray was in at that time, of 45. Yes he(jose) does exact some revenge latter on holman. Holman took 3 out of first 4 fights. ( Jose has more big names on his own resume, than rays FOR the time period Pre 52.) Look for yourself he took on most of murders row, which Ray clearly completely AVOIDES.
Joe Carter ( Really neck to neck in with Basora, same level they fought a draw, clearly was in ray's weight class again but avoided)
jack Chase( beat many of murders row)
George Abrams( ray beats him)
AAron Wade (Sugar somehow gets him to fight, his last fight 3 years out of retirement? What's that all about?)
cocoa kid( Amazing owned Holman, yet real enigmatic)
carl olson(A GREAT RESUME, ahead of zale, should have fought each other)
Tony Zale(Should have fought Overlin in 41)
teddy Yarosz(Can't belelive didn't fight ray! what a chicken)
izzy jannazzo( rays regular doormat opponent)
SO EVERYONE THIS TOOK 4-5 HOURS TO COMPLIE
read it and realize, what i already know Sugar ray was overrated!!! go ON BOX.REC and discover for yourself, our little secret. You can't be the BEST if you don't fight the best! How can you support your argument ray is better than these guys! Your in a box, both Bosora and lamotta fought murders row, Yet your argument is RAY's so good it, it goes with out saying!! THATS a crock! Who did he beat Other than Lamotta that was great? Your in a box(i know it)! Basora fought a harder schedule and i'll still give ray, all the benefit of a doubt. You can't possible think he's better than burley, Who would most certainly be the best welterweight if you ranked him at that class! Look at the compition levels it's not close!
LAST I MUST SAY THIS on ray's behalf, i really think he never reached his full potential as a fighter, by not facing these guys! and retireing in 52'. If you think's he good now, he would have been much better had he went through the grinder with these guys, that's inevitable why he falls short of being the best, for THE VERY REASON! tHERE isn't much you can say but he could have...but he didn't! What's left to say? But there is a new book on Burley and Murders row coming out! Read it and realize, this was history toughest period of fighters! Without a doubt!!! From Overlin to Marciano the connections made in relative opponents.