Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

[GorDoom]

Hawk:

I admire the effort you put into your research. & you are not one of the folks I was talking about. Any fighter or public figure can be torn down if you pursue every possible avenue of criticisim.

NOBODY is bullet proof. But arguing about the worthiness of fighters like Robinson or Ali or Marciano (2 other greats that people are constantly trying to denigrate) & again I ask why???

Does it make people feel better about themselves to try to tear a true HOFer down? Are your lives that unsatisfactory that the only joy you have is in trying to bring down a true great's rep to make up for the dissatisfaction in your own lives?

I really don't get it....

GorDoom

[hawk5ins]

I often think that these type of contrarian threads are created for the sole intent of knowing dipshits like myself are dumb enough to respond to them.

The electro shock thearpy treatments I have been taking over the past few months is unfortunately doing nothing other than singeing my nipples.

Hawk

[TKO11]

I had singed nipples for lunch. It's the latest addition to the GorDiet.

[GorDoom]

You guys are too funny! & BTW: Nipples are meat. NOT permitted in the diet!

LOL....

GorDoom

[kikibalt]

You guys are too funny! & BTW: Nipples are meat. NOT permitted in the diet!

LOL....

GorDoom

The nipple it self is meat, but what comes out of the nipples is not meat, so go ahead and suck away...LOL..

[dongee]

I am an avowed Sugar Ray booster who saw him fight live during his prime welter years. When our Ca. Jackie Wilson was being touted as a bona-fide coming champ, Robinson fought him at the LA Olympic.I was three rows back at ringside.
Ray was doing one of his famous "pack jobs" holding back on opening up against the very affable, very likeable Jackie Wilson. The audience was catching on too, and tossing debris into the ring.
Referee Abe Roth, went to Ray's corner between rounds and sternly told him "You are a champion, fight like one!"
Unfortunately for Jackie, Ray came out in the next round and within a couple of minutes ended the fight.
I must say that Ray's reason for not facing some of the men mentioned in this thread was because the match did not figure to draw, and Sugar was no bargain basement gladiator......it cost a wad to feature the one and only in his prime years.
Just a thought.

hap navarro

[JLP 6]

Sugar Ray Robinson

Jab: Ten
chin: 9
heart: Ten
Power: Ten
Speed: Ten
Defense: 7
Generalship: Ten

Defense was his only weakness. I think because Robinson was rightly, offensive-minded he was sometimes not particularly hard to hit clean. He could be dropped as well. I think he was so much a trap setter and counterpuncher would new that he had speed, movement, and firepower advantages over all comp, that he would sometimes lose focus on Defense.

I cannot see any fighter that lived beating Robinson at his prime. Greb and a middleweight Charles. possibly Leonard, Hagler, and Monzon. Of course Jake.

[GorDoom]

Hap is correct. It was all about the $$$. Fans tend to forget that boxing is a brutal BUSINESS. Fighters are not worried about their legacies they are worried about making a living.

Robinson fought the guys that gave him the most reward for the risk. I say that's simply good business.

GorDoom

[walshb]

So he was the Floyd Mayweather Jnr of his time, ducker!

[kikibalt]

Pro boxing is first and foremost a business, any fighter that goes into pro boxing thinking only of fame and glory needs a good manager...

[jim glen]

I posted a thread sometime ago title; " Robinson's Top 10" and at the opening of that thread I clearly stated it could easily be Ray's Top 25...

did Ray duck/avoid a few GREAT fighters(?), I'm sure he did. Could he have beat the same said fighters in back & forth fights(?), Of Course he could have!!!

25 years at the Top, that says enough... against some of the greatest fighters in history' "That says it all!"

[Dan Gunter]

I'm going to start a punk rock band: The Singed Nipples.

P.S.: Monzon was a punk. He never faced Ali.

[sr71ko]

Overrated? Maybe to some degree at middleweight. 5-time middleweight champ....never really understood why is considered the greatest middleweight of all time. I agree the greatest fighter P4P of all time, and greatest welterweight of all time, and again a great middleweight, but not sure of the greatest middleweight. SRR did his best work at welterweight and below. Was not really a 175lber, yet he was great enough I believe to beat a lot of contenders at the weight(hell he nearly won the title had it not been for the heat). SRR was also past his best when fighting at 160lbs for a long time. So if SRR is overrated it is at middleweight. Yes he did duck Charley Burley.....but so did LaMotta, Zale, Graziano, and others.

[GorDoom]

Again, boxing is a BUSINESS not a path for those seeking glory. This isn't the simon pure's where you fight for baubles. This is Big Boy stuff. Only men need apply....

Robinson didn't "duck" Burley. What would have been the point in fighting him? It was bad business : No $$$. Two elements come into play here: Back in Burley & Robbie's day, frankly due to racisim, it was extremely rare too see two black men matched against each other in a big time bout.

That's why Joe Louis only fought one black challenger, light heavy champ, John Henry Lewis. But even for that fight there were special circumstances. They were both close friends & Lewis was blind in one eye & I believe losing sight in the other.

Joe basically fought him as a favor, a final payday for a friend. It was Lewis's last fight. Joe mercifully took him out in 1. Off the top of my head - & I very well could be incorrect, the only major championship bouts in those days between black's or men of color were Ceferino Garcia v. Henry Armstrong, Ike Williams v. Beau Jack & Ezzard Charles v. Joe Louis & that took place in 1950.

The other element that came into play was that Burley, as great a fighter as he was, was not a fan favorite that packed them in every time he fought. He was a very careful fighter, great defensively who also had very good power but only opened up when he felt the time was right. Despite his rep today Burley was not a dynamic fighter with a big fan base.

Most of his early round stoppages were against, compared to him, sub par competition. Remember, because of the circumstances of the day a lot of his fight's were on the boxing equivalent of the "chitlin' circuit".

Bottom line, Robinson wasn't afraid of him; there simply was no money or advantage in facing him. In other words it was a BUSINESS decision.

& business, commercial hype & ardent fans are what drive boxing, not what's fair or righteous or someone's place in boxing history. & Charley Burley simply wasn't going to fill the coffers like Ray's other opponents.

& you know what? Such is life....


GorDoom

[dongee]

Business is business. A case in point.

Circa 1951 Ike Williams and Jimmy Carter fought for the lightweight title at the Garden before a house of about $14,000.

One year later Carter met Lauro Salas for the same title at the LA Olympic and the gate was several times greater.

Some matches draw much better than others......not all of the brave men are natural drawing cards, in any sport.

hap navarro

[sr71ko]

GorDoom, I give too, you are right about Charley Burley. If it does not make dollars.....it does not make sense. High risk for little reward. Jack Johnson had a similar stance with a rematch with Sam Langford of high risk with little reward. Even with Joe Louis.....Louis has been accused of dodging dangerous black fighter like Elmer Violent Ray(even though Louis ko'd him in exhibitions). SRR vs. Burley would have been a great technical fight that would most likely go the distance.

[GorDoom]

SR:

The langfor-Johnson analogy is perfect. Same exact situation. & in Johnson's day a heavyweight title fight betweentwo black men would have created an uproar that could have resultedin lynchings & riots.

Turmoi was certainly no stranger to Lil' Arthur! The recondite mentality rampant in society in that era would have assumed Johnson was tryingto permanently steal the title from "White America" by defending against a fellow black man.

Sounds ridiculous? Everybody should read up on some history of the period.

At any rate, excellent analogy SR.

GorDoom

[wpink]

Wow. I guess anytime someone is considered the best pound per pound of all time, he can easily be considered overrated, as that is the highest anyone can be rated, pound per best ever.

I wonder to the author, who it seems knows a lot about era, and I commend him on the effort, and also will not try to debate him on the issues. However I wonder if when we consider attacking Robinson, and your ranking him pound per pound vs others. Hmmm is their a consistent review of all fighters, and if so, how on a consistent or as consistent as you can be, review of Robinson's career vs others, where Robinson would be rated.

Lets see Robinson didn't start out at welter his first fights were at 130, and did he not beat the eventual champion at that and 135, however they refused to santion the fights as title fights. I may have some of the facts a bit out of whack, but I am sure when he fought at 135 and below he did fight several fighters who were currently or in the near future the champions of that respective weight class and beat them. However we don't consider this in most reviews. So many of his reviews start out at the welter weight division. Remember back then there where not any junior division so Jr welter, super welter all where not in play back then or Robinson would have most likley added at least 3 more titles to his resume (140,154, 168). Hmmmm.

Now you have a fighter who dominated the welterweight division, then moved up and beat hall of famers at middle, and damm near won the light heavy except for the heat. I will repeat, this guy did not start at welter. So keep all of that in mind. Robinson did not fight one middleweight fighter then retreat to welter, he campaigned up there and fought and beat future all time top fighters. I wonder how many people can say they fought from 130-135, moved up dominated welter, and then moved up to middle and beat top all tiem fighters of all time, not one fight, but campaigned at that weight class and beat these fighters.

I wonder how many fighters on top of the quality Robinson faced and beat, had a record of like 122-1-2 and the guy that beat him ( a top fighter) he had beaten repeatedly. I wonder.

Did Ali ever move up and do the things Robinson did?
Did Louis?
Did Duran dominate any division above 135? What was his record vs great fighters above 135?
Did leonard ever campaign at 154 or 160 or 168, or 175. Didnt he have a total of 40 fights.
Marciano, Dempsey, Charles etc.. did any of these truly great have the resume that Robinson had, move up and beat top fighters like robinson.
Henry Armstrong is close, but head to head, does his accomplishment, resume, record, etc equal Robinsons.

I encourage this author to not only target Robinson for what he didn't do, and who he didnt face, as you can do that about anyone, but look at what he did do, and then as consistently as possible compare that to others what they did do career wise, and place their entire record, resume accomplishment etc. vs Robinson. I would like to see who beats robinson.

[wildhawke11]

Harry Greb

[wpink]

Harry Greb

Greb, Armstrong... both are good names to compare. However, I dont think most will say Greb is clearly head and shoulders above Robinson.

I have heard great information about Lanford as well. I just never saw footage of Langford or Greg.

[greek1237]

Harry Greb beat more greats than Robinson, and jump a bigger gap than Robinson, from Middleweight to heavyweight.


Same goes for Micky Walker in that regard.

Robinson can be number 1 or cant be. But like any rateing, he is not a lock for it.

I think Greb, Fitz, Armstrong, Perhaps even the Toy Bulldog could in theory be rated over Robinson in a pound for pound sense.

[greek1237]

Greb, Armstrong... both are good names to compare. However, I dont think most will say Greb is clearly head and shoulders above Robinson.

I have heard great information about Lanford as well. I just never saw footage of Langford or Greg.

Time has relly hurt Greb and Langford in the ratings.

See the Gor's list of fighters that didnt make the greatness list, Langford was drop off totally. And that was a middleweight beating heavyweights.

In regards to stats, these 2 match up well, if not over Robinson.

[wpink]

the good thing that these recent post's are doing is discussing what others have done, in comparison, what Robinson did not do. Robinson did enough to be considered pound per pound, that does not mean he has to be unanamous. Each of us have our own rating scale, but to have a logical discussion we need to review all on the same criteria, and not just say Robinson ducked everyone, when in fact he fought a lot of great top fighters, and beat them. So have these others that are being mentioned.

Great feebback. Greb, Langford, walker, armstrong Robinson, Ali, All great great options, don't you think.

[PeteLeo]

I have heard great information about Lanford as well. I just never saw footage of Langford or Greg.

Can't help you with any films of Greb, but you can get a (blurry) look at Langford here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2jtZ31rOlQ

ESPN has cleaned up both of these bouts substantially. PeteLeo.

[Crold1]

Overrated? Maybe to some degree at middleweight. 5-time middleweight champ....never really understood why is considered the greatest middleweight of all time. I agree the greatest fighter P4P of all time, and greatest welterweight of all time, and again a great middleweight, but not sure of the greatest middleweight. SRR did his best work at welterweight and below. Was not really a 175lber, yet he was great enough I believe to beat a lot of contenders at the weight(hell he nearly won the title had it not been for the heat). SRR was also past his best when fighting at 160lbs for a long time. So if SRR is overrated it is at middleweight. Yes he did duck Charley Burley.....but so did LaMotta, Zale, Graziano, and others.

Again though, when were Burley and Robinson ever in the same division where it would have mattered? Robinson fought Middles at Welter but as Gor notes it was for money. Fighting Burley, when they weren't competing in the same place on the scale, was pointless. A win would have done nothing for Ray and a loss would have hurt his cause at Welter while Burley would still have been locked out. It's not like Ray not fighting Burley limited Burley which is what a real duck is.

[Surf-Bat]

Harry Greb beat more greats than Robinson, and jump a bigger gap than Robinson, from Middleweight to heavyweight

Bingo.

[PeterD]

Can't help you with any films of Greb, but you can get a (blurry) look at Langford here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2jtZ31rOlQ

ESPN has cleaned up both of these bouts substantially. PeteLeo.

There is much better footage of Langford out there. His fights with Lang and Flynn are better footage, although incomplete as well.

[Elwill7847]

Sugar Ray Robinson

Jab: Ten
chin: 9
heart: Ten
Power: Ten
Speed: Ten
Defense: 7
Generalship: Ten

Defense was his only weakness. I think because Robinson was rightly, offensive-minded he was sometimes not particularly hard to hit clean. He could be dropped as well. I think he was so much a trap setter and counterpuncher would new that he had speed, movement, and firepower advantages over all comp, that he would sometimes lose focus on Defense.

I cannot see any fighter that lived beating Robinson at his prime. Greb and a middleweight Charles. possibly Leonard, Hagler, and Monzon. Of course Jake.

No way Sugar Ray Leonard beats Robinson at 147....SRR would give SRL a terrific pasting at 147.

Since Robinson's prime was at Welterweight, not Middleweight, Greb, Hagler and Monzon certainly would be tough fights for Sugar Ray at Middleweight, and them winning is very possible. But if we are talking a mythical PFP matchup in which the fighters are the same size (weight), Robinson beats Greb & Charles in tremendous fights and easily defeats Hagler and Monzon. At 147, Robinson was virtually unbeatable. With a record of 128-1-2 in his first 131 fights, his only loss was to LaMotta, who outweighed him by 16 lbs. He reversed that loss 3 weeks later.

Greb, Leonard, Hagler and Monzon were all great fighters but, when compared to a prime Robinson (absolute prime 1946-1948) they fall short and would not have beaten him.

[Crold1]

No way Sugar Ray Leonard beats Robinson at 147....SRR would give SRL a terrific pasting at 147.

Since Robinson's prime was at Welterweight, not Middleweight, Greb, Hagler and Monzon certainly would be tough fights for Sugar Ray at Middleweight, and them winning is very possible. But if we are talking a mythical PFP matchup in which the fighters are the same size (weight), Robinson beats Greb & Charles in tremendous fights and easily defeats Hagler and Monzon. At 147, Robinson was virtually unbeatable. With a record of 128-1-2 in his first 131 fights, his only loss was to LaMotta, who outweighed him by 16 lbs. He reversed that loss 3 weeks later.

Greb, Leonard, Hagler and Monzon were all great fighters but, when compared to a prime Robinson (absolute prime 1946-1948) they fall short and would not have beaten him.

Leonard-Robinson would have been marvelous and while Rob should be favored, pasting is a stretch. Gavilan by all acounts gave Rob two great fights; great fighters tend to have great fights. Leonard would as well.

[Surf-Bat]

No way Sugar Ray Leonard beats Robinson at 147....SRR would give SRL a terrific pasting at 147.

Since Robinson's prime was at Welterweight, not Middleweight, Greb, Hagler and Monzon certainly would be tough fights for Sugar Ray at Middleweight, and them winning is very possible. But if we are talking a mythical PFP matchup in which the fighters are the same size (weight), Robinson beats Greb & Charles in tremendous fights and easily defeats Hagler and Monzon. At 147, Robinson was virtually unbeatable. With a record of 128-1-2 in his first 131 fights, his only loss was to LaMotta, who outweighed him by 16 lbs. He reversed that loss 3 weeks later.

Greb, Leonard, Hagler and Monzon were all great fighters but, when compared to a prime Robinson (absolute prime 1946-1948) they fall short and would not have beaten him.

I dunno Elwill. Prime Greb was beating the likes of Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Tommy Gibbons and a gaggle of top middleweights, light heavyweights and heavyweights. Even a slightly past-prime Greb still had enough to beat Hall of Famers like Mickey Walker and Maxie Rosenbloom.

The Robinson of the years you cited was no doubt an amazing fighter. No doubt there. But even then he was showing indications that he was gonna be struggling with the big boys(Georgie Abrams; a VERY controversial "win" for SRR). Greb had no problem going up and giving the big boys their lunch at any weight and at any time in his career. Check out his record from 1915 to 1925. It is probably the singlemost astounding record in boxing history.

"Falling short" is not something that can be ascribed to Harry at ANY point in his career!