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Thread: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

  1. #91
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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Having been around since forever, the only way that the great fighters mentioned in the same breath with SRR on this thread are diminished in my mind is when I compare them all with Robinson.

    However, that is just an opinion, not exactly gospel.

    hap navarro

  2. #92
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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Hi Hap!

    I feel the same way about Greb. When I look at his record all other fighter's accomplishments and records just seem to fade away into the background when compared. His towering credentials just eclipse everyone.

    But SRR was definitely no slouch!

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    "Jake Mintz came to me one time and said I might be able to get a contract for three fights with Robinson, but he told me that part of the deal would be that I would have to go down in the first one. I questioned whether I would get a rematch after the first fight and he didn't give me an answer."

    Charley Burley



    "Ray ducked me. George Gainford admitted that much. But, I can't say that I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."

    Charley Burley

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    And I am not supporting the statement that Robinson is overrated (he's not), I am supporting the fact that boxing, above all else, is a business.

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surf-Bat
    I dunno Elwill. Prime Greb was beating the likes of Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Tommy Gibbons and a gaggle of top middleweights, light heavyweights and heavyweights. Even a slightly past-prime Greb still had enough to beat Hall of Famers like Mickey Walker and Maxie Rosenbloom.

    The Robinson of the years you cited was no doubt an amazing fighter. No doubt there. But even then he was showing indications that he was gonna be struggling with the big boys(Georgie Abrams; a VERY controversial "win" for SRR). Greb had no problem going up and giving the big boys their lunch at any weight and at any time in his career. Check out his record from 1915 to 1925. It is probably the singlemost astounding record in boxing history.

    "Falling short" is not something that can be ascribed to Harry at ANY point in his career!
    Certainly do not intend to disrespect Greb, Charles, Monzon, Hagler or Leonard, all of whom were great fighters. I rank Greb and Charles in the top 10 PFP all time, as well as ranking Greb as the #1 Middleweight of all time and Charles as the #1 Light Heavyweight of all time. I just think that, PFP, Robinson was better and would find a way to win vs both in a mythical PFP matchup, although both Greb and Charles would give him hell.

    So far as Leonard, Hagler and Monzon are concerned, all were great fighters, but a level below Robinson.

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    No one should deny Harry Greb what is certainly due him for his ring accomplishments.He was undoubtedly a terrific battler, a cut above the bruiser/brawler, fearless and rock solid.
    I have a bit of trouble getting past his large total of draw bouts.....decisions that could have gone against him in close fights. All those t times an opponent was his equal in the eyes of the men officiating. Not much of a criteria, I know, but those are not exactly victories, other than moral.
    His enormous total of ring appearances should be enough to point out his fistic worth. The man was unique in that sense, and head and shoulders above most of the champions that followed him.

    Could he have outscrambled SRR? Absolutely. But he would have been hard pressed to do so, methinks.

    hap navarro

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    No one should deny Harry Greb what is certainly due him for his ring accomplishments.He was undoubtedly a terrific battler, a cut above the bruiser/brawler, fearless and rock solid.
    I have a bit of trouble getting past his large total of draw bouts.....decisions that could have gone against him in close fights. All those t times an opponent was his equal in the eyes of the men officiating. Not much of a criteria, I know, but those are not exactly victories, other than moral.
    His enormous total of ring appearances should be enough to point out his fistic worth. The man was unique in that sense, and head and shoulders above most of the champions that followed him.

    Could he have outscrambled SRR? Absolutely. But he would have been hard pressed to do so, methinks.

    hap navarro

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Howdy, Surf-Bat!!

    Sorry I missed your cordial greeting. Hi to you, too.

    hap navarro

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Sugar Ray is overrated? By whom? Everybody who has any dealings with Sugar Ray in boxing knows hes a great great fighter. Likewise Harry Greb. Who beats whom is a opinion. I say probably Greb wins at 160. He fought better bigger guys.

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Think Elwill7847 is underated HIGHLY Greb's pound for pound standing in compare to Robinson.

    If any other fighter can in theory be rated over Robinson, Greb has the top choice in this regard.

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwill7847
    Certainly do not intend to disrespect Greb, Charles, Monzon, Hagler or Leonard, all of whom were great fighters. I rank Greb and Charles in the top 10 PFP all time, as well as ranking Greb as the #1 Middleweight of all time and Charles as the #1 Light Heavyweight of all time. I just think that, PFP, Robinson was better and would find a way to win vs both in a mythical PFP matchup, although both Greb and Charles would give him hell.

    So far as Leonard, Hagler and Monzon are concerned, all were great fighters, but a level below Robinson.

    Greb was beating Heavyweights, Robinson could not even get past the lightheavyweight range.

    Greb has a arugment to be rank over Robinson on more hofers and of couse the larger weight jump.

    Hell had Dempsey giving Harry a shot, and Greb won, we might have no arugment there.

    People seem to forget that Greb was one of the top 2 contenders for Dempsey's crown, Wills being the other.

    I think Greb did more in pound for pound than Robinson did imo.

  12. #102
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    Greb started his career

    above the Middleweight limit of 160, which is a Light Heavy, got himself DOWN to Middle and also made his way up to fighting Heavies, yes.

    Robinson began his career at 135 pounds. At Lightweight.

    Let's not act as though the two began their careers at the same weight class and one was able to make it all the way up to beating heavies and the other couldn't get past Light Heavy.

    Robby began his career at a MINIMUM of 25 pounds lighter than Greb began HIS career at.

    Hawk

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    You sure about that, Hawk? I always thought Harry began his career around the 150 pound range. I know boxrec has him listed as low as 142 early in his career. Definitely not near lightheavy at the early stages from all I've gathered.

    Perhaps I haven't "gathered" enough...

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Actually Greb began his career just above lightweight. He fought as a 145 pound amateur but made his pro debut just above 135. He certainly didnt begin TWENTY-FIVE pounds heavier than Robinson. He quickly grew into a full-fledged welterweight and by 1915 he put on enough muscle to be a husky middleweight. By 1917 he was very comfortable at 165 but could melt down to middleweight if need be. However, in 1918 as he was eager to make the middleweight limit for ODowd he tried to hard and overshot the mark melting down to 155 leaving him somewhat weak and lethargic. His maximum best fighting weight was between 163 and 165. He was shorter than Robinson but his frame was stockier which allowed him to add more muscle and thus weigh more than Sugar Ray in their primes, head to head.

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    I have seen that as well.

    THe Chip fight. But they also have him weighing in at 170 plus slightly over a year later (Dec 1914), with 20 bouts in between. That's a pretty big jump in that time frame for as active as Greb was.

    And when I say Light heavy, I'm meaning anything over 160.

    Ray won the the New York Golden Gloves Featherweight Title in 1940, the year he turned pro, so Ray was a Feather cum Lightweight when he turned pro.

    It was my understanding, that Greb did fight in the 145 pound weight class as an amateur but had turned pro around or slightly above 160.

    I may not have the numbers exactly straight, or the disparity of 25 exact, but I still think the point of Greb beginning his pro career heavier than Robby began his at, is still a valid statement.

    Hawk

  16. #106
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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Greb turned pro at 138, not 160 or even close to it. You have to remember that when he fought Borrell in 1914 he literally came out of the audience on a minutes notice to take the place of the fighter facing Borrell. He hadnt been in training and hadnt expected to fight, he was described by one paper as being "hog fat." That fight is clearly a misrepresentation of his actual fighting weight. I agree that he was a huskier and naturally heavier fighter than Robinson but his natural fighting weight also wasnt so much greater than Robinson's that it gave him a vast natural advantage over Robinson when fighting in the LHW and HW ranks.

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    I'm not saying that I am not incorrect

    I may very well be. But what is your source for Greb turning pro at the weight of 138?

    He ended his amateur career fighting at 145. Seems unlikely to me that he turns pro at a weight LOWER that what he was fight at in the unpaid ranks.

    And the Borrell fight that I obviously was referencing.....well if he weighed 170 for that bout On Dec 7th, 1914, what was he weighing for Terry Martin on November 14th?

    Even if you say he had grown into a full fledged Welterweight shortly after turning pro and into a Middleweight by 1915, I'd like to understand how in less than one month for a fighter who had been fighting very regularly, and according to Bill Paxton's book on Greb, worked out regularly between bouts throughout his career and stayed in tremendous shape, how in less than one month, somehow Greb allowed himself to baloon from Welter to 170 plus?

    Sorry, call me skeptical.

    Again, I admit that I may be off a bit on Greb's weight when he turned pro and the disparity between he and Robby when He turned pro, but based on what I have read and researched and what adds up and doesn't, I don't think I'm eggregiously off.

    Hawk

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    My source is the Pittsburgh daily newspapers for his fight with KO Kirkwood which state that the contracted weight was 138. That may seem "unlikely" to you but thats the way it was. Its a fact. Jake LaMotta fought at 175 in the amateurs but fought as low as 155 in the pros. Thats a fact, as "unlikely" as it may seem.

    Weights were not given by any of the Philadelphia papers for his bout with Martin but assuming he had to make the 158 pound middleweight limit for that match is it a stretch that in a month he could gain 12 pounds from not training? Keep in mind I never said he was a welterweight in 1914, I said by 1915 (which dawned less than a month after the Borrell bout) he'd grown into a husky (i.e. big/robust) middleweight, he was clearly fighting in 1914 as a middleweight. A letter by Greb's manager dated September 14, 1914 challenges "anyone, champions or near champions" with Greb weighing 154. The contracts for his January 1915 bout against Blackburn stipulate the weights as 158 pounds. Arturo Gatti (who was a smaller man than Greb) gained 19 pounds in day between the weigh in and fight for Joey Gamache and had similar weight gains at other points in his career. So Im not sure why it is so hard for you to believe that a man who hasnt been training for a fight could be between 12 and 16 pounds over his fighting weight. Either way its clearly besides the point because it would be hard to seriously argue that Greb's real fighting weight was 170 when he was able to make less than 160 at the end of his career.

    Im not and never had said that Greb was walking around at 138, 145, or whatever, he trained down to those weights just like Robinson trained down to 135, 147, and eventually 160. Anyone who thinks Robinson was walking around 135 in 1941, 147 in 1949, or 160 in 1955 is crazy. He trained down to those weights to be at his best physically just like Greb did.

  19. #109
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    Walk around weight

    in those days when you are fighting every two weeks or every Month, is a complete different ball game to what is going on today.

    When Ray was fighting at 135, having to make 135 the day of the fight, and fighting every week, to two weeks, yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and state that his walk around weight was right in that very range.

    I am well aware of what Lamotta weighed as an amateur. That he was the Diamond Belt Light Heavychamp. And I am aware that when he turned pro, it took SEVERAL fights for him to get down to Middleweight from 175. It certainly was not an overnight process.

    And agian, from my last post re Greb, ballooning up to 170 from either welterweight or Middleweight is completely out of charecter from everything I have read on him and his training habits and his keeping in shape between bouts.

    RE the Pittsburgh news papers, can you cite the Exact paper and date from which you pulled that info from regarding information on Harry Grebs pro debut? Or better yet, can you post it here?

    Thank You.

    Hawk

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    delete
    Last edited by bodyblow; 07-25-2009 at 09:06 AM.

  21. #111
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    Well

    I have what you posted. Forgive me, but I will probably validate this info before accepting it as gospel.

    As far as proof from me re this statement:

    "When Ray was fighting at 135, having to make 135 the day of the fight, and fighting every week, to two weeks, yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and state that his walk around weight was right in that very range."

    I'm not sure what I need to prove.

    Are you looking for his walk around weight between his pro debut on Oct 4 1940, his second fight on Oct 8, 1940, his next bout on Oct 22 1940 and the following one on Nov 11?

    You'll have to give me some time, but I will work on it.

    Regarding Greb's weight between bouts, I will stand by my comments and lend more credence to what I have read out of Paxton's book on the matter of Greb's conditioning.

    Hawk

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    And Re the Chip bout

    From Greb's site, quoting the Pittsburgh Press Nov 29, 1913:

    (the following was part of the last paragraph of the article)

    In the semi-final Joe Chip, brother of George, gets into action against Harry Grebbs (sic), who recently won the amateur championship. This bout, between middleweights, should prove good, as it will give Grebbs (sic) the test needed to bring himaround to where the public will notice him.


    Below is actually from the NOV 30 edition. Sorry about the typo above (since corrected). I meant the 29th for the above piece.

    (the following was the last paragraph of the article)

    Joe Chip appeared after a long absence mating up with Harry Greb of this city. Chip began like a wild man missing some leads by four feet. He bled Greb's lip but at the round's end Greb was going the best. The fight was going in Chip's favor in the second round when suddenly Chip landed an awful right clip on Greb's jaw. Greb fell with a bump his head testing the ring floor. He tried to get up in time but was unable to do so. Chip rushed to greb's corner and threatened to clean up James R. Mason, Greb's cheif second who had been commenting on Chip's ring antics. Bystanders prevented a flare up. The "kayo" was a thriller.


    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 07-23-2009 at 08:35 AM.

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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Imagine if Robinson fought today.

    Odds are he would have KOed just about every fighter he was placed in front of.

    Let us ask see who are the champions of today.

    147. Berto, Cotto, Clottey

    160. Pavlik, Abraham, Sturm

    I say that Robinson KO's all these men. With relative ease. Who doubts this?

  24. #114
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    At 160 lbs

    Quote Originally Posted by JLP 6

    I say that Robinson KO's all these men. With relative ease. Who doubts this?
    With relative ease? No, I don't think so. Pavlik is a decent hitter with a good beard, size and good stamina, as is Abraham. I think Robbie beats them, but not with ease

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    JL

    Robby would finish what Taylor started in the 2nd round of their first bout.

    Pavlik never makes it out of the 2nd round.

    Pavlik doesn't beat Bobo Olson either IMO.

    Take Ray at his best at 160, and he annhilates any Middleweight contender out there today.

    Best version of Ray at 147, has little difficulty as well. I think Mosley is the cream of that crop and I say Ray would finish what Vernon Forrest started as well.

    Now OBVIOUSLY, if Ray were fighting today,he'd have good nights and so so nights much like he did when he fought. But I can't see a contender or titleist out there in either the Welter or Middleweight division that pushes Ray very much during one of Ray OFF nights to say notning about when he's ON.

    I guess an OLD Middleweight version of Robby vs this OLD Version of Hopkins could be interesting.

    But that's it.

    Hawk

  26. #116
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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Yes, that is why they are champions. Hopkins beat Pavlik with Realitive ease, and probably could have KO'ed him, if he wanted.

    The power that Robinson has, combined with speed hand and foot, and ring generalship. I do not see these chins being able to stand up to the best version of Robbie.

    I see that he has all the advantages and employeed them successfully against better fighters than these.

    Realitively speaking, he should not have much problem figuring and smashing these titlist and champions.

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    Re: And Re the Chip bout

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    From Greb's site, quoting the Pittsburgh Press Nov 29, 1913:

    (the following was part of the last paragraph of the article)

    In the semi-final Joe Chip, brother of George, gets into action against Harry Grebbs (sic), who recently won the amateur championship. This bout, between middleweights, should prove good, as it will give Grebbs (sic) the test needed to bring himaround to where the public will notice him.


    Below is actually from the NOV 30 edition. Sorry about the typo above (since corrected). I meant the 29th for the above piece.

    (the following was the last paragraph of the article)

    Joe Chip appeared after a long absence mating up with Harry Greb of this city. Chip began like a wild man missing some leads by four feet. He bled Greb's lip but at the round's end Greb was going the best. The fight was going in Chip's favor in the second round when suddenly Chip landed an awful right clip on Greb's jaw. Greb fell with a bump his head testing the ring floor. He tried to get up in time but was unable to do so. Chip rushed to greb's corner and threatened to clean up James R. Mason, Greb's cheif second who had been commenting on Chip's ring antics. Bystanders prevented a flare up. The "kayo" was a thriller.


    Hawk

    Im not sure what your point is in posting that. It had nothing to do with our conversation. You yourself admitted that Greb weighed 142 for Chip. You can feel free to check my sources, they are solid. Although since Paxton's word seems to be gospel with you I would assume you could just ask him, he knows everything about Greb doesnt he?

  28. #118
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    I hold conversations

    with posters other than you BB.

    Thank you for your response though.

    I admited that I READ in Boxrec that Greb's weight was listed at 142 for the Chip fight.

    Yes, I fully admit I have read that.

    Hawk
    Last edited by hawk5ins; 07-23-2009 at 10:09 AM.

  29. #119
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    Re: Why Sugar Ray Robinson is overrated.

    Robinson cleans out 168 too.

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    Re: Greb started his career

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk5ins
    above the Middleweight limit of 160, which is a Light Heavy, got himself DOWN to Middle and also made his way up to fighting Heavies, yes.

    Robinson began his career at 135 pounds. At Lightweight.

    Let's not act as though the two began their careers at the same weight class and one was able to make it all the way up to beating heavies and the other couldn't get past Light Heavy.

    Robby began his career at a MINIMUM of 25 pounds lighter than Greb began HIS career at.

    Hawk
    I was merely pointing out the folly of the above post. You have no proof to back up such a bold and inaccurate statement whereas I posted the citations you asked for which refute your claims. No need to get snarky about it

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