Angelo Dundee Ko'd by Pepe Correa

[hawk5ins]

Has anyone heard this story before?

I picked up Dundee's book that came out in 2008 "My View From the Corner", a week ago in a second hand book store and have been flipping through it a couple of times, while, ahem, "doing my best thinking" (sorry for the visual).

Flipped ahead to a chapter on SRL and his fight with Duran.

Following the KO of Davey Boy Greene, apparently on the way to the post fight Press conference, Pepe Correa, Leonard's amateur trainer, then assistant trainer and future head trainer when Ange was dismissed following the Hagler bout, came up behind Dundee and cold cocked him, knocking him to the ground and nearly unconscious.

Dundee who barely remembers what happened, to say nothing of HOW it happened, also has no idea WHY it happened. And has never gotten an explanation about the whole episode.

As Dundee wrote in his book, while Ange was on a dressing room table getting attended to, all the Leonard team could do was try to figure out how to cover this up. Not wanting any bad press or controversy, a story was concocted that a fan had drilled Dundee in the back of the head.

THat was the story I recall.

I also recall reading that it was a camp hanger-oner.

Went and looked through a few other books I have on Ray and in Alan Goldstein's book (Fistful of Sugar), there is mention of the incident but the person identified as clocking Angelo was a Joe "Pepe" Saunders, who was there to serve as Ray's personal chauffer for the week of the fight.

I never made the connection that this person who was identified in Goldstein's book was actually Pepe Correa.

The incident is not mentioned in Toperoff's book (Noble Warriors). Nor is is mentioned in Marantz's (Sorcery) or Kimball's book (Four Kings) and it isn't in Dundee's first bio (I Only Talk Winning).

I never thought much of Correa as a trainer. I've never been impressed with him and I think it was evident just how average he was when seeing the developement and older Lennox Lewis made under Manny Steward. He was in his physical prime with Correa, but his skills had never truly progressed from his amateur days, until he reached his 30's while with Steward.

After reading this story, I can now say I don't think much of Correa as a Man either.

Hawk

[phlboxarc]

Hawk, this is from the Philadelphia Journal :

DUNDEE ATTACKED

LANDOVER Md. - South Philly's Angelo Dundee was attacked by an avid Sugar Ray Leonard fan following the champ's win last night at the Capital Centre.

Dundee might have suffered a slight concussion.

According to Capital officials, Joe Saunders, described as an aquaintance of Leonard, and Dundee, Leonard's manager, exchanged words as the Leonard entourage attempted to push toward the the dressing room. Saunders reportedly struck Dundee. He was arrested by arena security, but no charges were filed. Dundee, through a spokesman, said "he felt fine and was sorry about the incident."

According to Andy Starr, an eye witness from the Charles Brotman PR firm that handled the fight for Top Rank, Inc., Dundee and Saunders argued as Angelo pushed his way through the crowd.

"Dundee shouted at him (Saunders), 'Your the worst of them,' Starr told the Journal. "Then the guy just turned around and cold cocked him with a right hand."
From Tim Panaccio.

[hawk5ins]

DUndee says he was questioned by police and asked if he wanted to press charges, but he says he told them he couldn't as he doesn't recall anything.

Joe Saunders. The name referenced in Goldstein's book, but with the nick name Pepe.

Jose Pepe Correa and Joe Saunders.......The same person?

Can't imagine Dundee would make the accusation in HIS book, without something to back it up.

Very Interesting.

Thanks Chuck!

Hawk

[bodyblow]

This might be a cheap shot at Correa by Dundee. Dundee was pretty bitter when he got dumped in favor of Correa by Leonard. I dont know why seeing as Dundee was only a hired gun for Leonard and typically only showed up in camp about two weeks before fight time to fine tune leonard, talk strategy, etc. He got all the media attention but it was others who actually trained Leonard.

[10-8]

I remember when it happened and it was mentioned on the live telecast that night that Dundee had been punched.

[hawk5ins]

reference from Goldstein's book though, is a bit more than a simple coincidence.

It certainly would not surprise me that this indeed did happen, that it was Correa and that Trainer and company, did one helluva coverup job.

Pretty significant lie by Dundee if he simply made this up. One that certainly would have lawsuit all over it.

Dundee's role with SRL, was certainly not unique.

Ray Arcel served in the exact same capacity, with Freddie Brown doing all the day to day stuff.

There are several other examples of this as well. Manny Steward jumps out. Eddie Futch had Freddie Roach doing the day to day stuff for several of his charges, before coming in with two weeks to go.

Mike Trainer has a nice smear job on Angelo over the years, whining about Dundee only being a part time employee. But Dundee was not unique in serving the role for Leonard that he did.

Bill I recalled hearing Angelo got hit. Just never knew who it was. To read this now, did open my eyes a bit.

Hawk

[walshb]

This might be a cheap shot at Correa by Dundee. Dundee was pretty bitter when he got dumped in favor of Correa by Leonard. I dont know why seeing as Dundee was only a hired gun for Leonard and typically only showed up in camp about two weeks before fight time to fine tune leonard, talk strategy, etc. He got all the media attention but it was others who actually trained Leonard.

I had assumed that Angelo was every bit as influential with Ray as
he was with Ali. I didn't realise that he was only a 'part-timer,' so to speak.
I wonder did this surface in the The Four Kings book? If so, I should have been more attentive.

[10-8]

Hawk, if I venture into the basement today I'll try and locate The Ring Magazine coverage of the bout to see if Correa is mentioned by name. Coverage was in the June 1980 issue with Ali's face on a dollar bill on the front cover if your closer to it than me.

Dundee butted heads with Trainer almost from day one. In Angelo's book 'I ONLY TALK WINNING' he reprinted a letter from Trainer from early in Ray's career being critical of Dundee's contribution. Trainer is a lawyer and a money guy, not a boxing guy. Angelo got a % throughout his time with Ray but after the Hagler fight when Angelo's cut saw him receive a good chunk of money (proportionate to Ray's increased purse) Trainer wanted to renegotiate Dundee's fees which in the end led to the split.

Fact is, Janks Morton and Dave Jacobs trained Ray and got him in shape for fights and Angelo came in a couple weeks before a big fight and worked on strategy and deployment etc...that's how it was throughout Leonard's career.

Angie was an integral part of Ray's success however. It was he who chose Leonard's opponents during the development process and guided his career as well as mapped out strategy for fights.

[10-8]

Joe (Pete) Saunders, once the trainer of Sugar Ray Leonard when Leonard was just starting out in the amateurs and now reduced to the ignominous role of camp follower and 'hanger on,' apparently took his frustrations out on the chin of Angelo Dundee after the Leonard-Dave (Boy) Green fight.

From what fragmentary eye-witness reports can be pieced together, it seems that Dundee had just returned from giving Ring editor Herb Goldman his comment on the impending Leonard-Duran fight and was about to lead Leonard back to the press area for the post fight press conference when he came upon Saunders. Dundee, in the vanguard of Leonard's entourage, asked Saunders to "move" out of the way when Saunders - who ironically had driven Leonard to the Capitol Center for the fight - turned into Dundee with one explosive right, knocking Dundee to the floor.

Dundee, who, according to Leonard "beat the count," came out of it with a slight concussion - as well as a slight injury to his pride. After all, Leonard added, "He always told me to slip punches and then come right back with one of your own"; this time the teacher didn't practice what he preached.

But, "at least his hairpiece wasn't knocked off," Leonard quipped.

[bodyblow]

I had assumed that Angelo was every bit as influential with Ray as
he was with Ali. I didn't realise that he was only a 'part-timer,' so to speak.
I wonder did this surface in the The Four Kings book? If so, I should have been more attentive.

Its been common knowledge for 30 years or more that Dundee wasnt a full time trainer for Leonard.

[walshb]

Its been common knowledge for 30 years or more that Dundee wasn't a full time trainer for Leonard.

I knew that Ray had 'more full time' trainers than Angelo; but you made me think that his influence on Ray was negligible. 10-8 has cleared it up from his posts. Angelo was quite instrumental. Angleo being more a guide and voice as opposed to a trainer in the physical sense.

"He always told me to slip punches and then come right back with one of your own"; this time the teacher didn't practice what he preached.

But, "at least his hairpiece wasn't knocked off," Leonard quipped.

Maybe, Ray, the teacher wasn't expecting that scumbag to clock him for no fucking
reason. Angelo must have been in his 60s at this stage.

[hawk5ins]

Thanks for the snippet.

"Pete" eh? Joe, Jose, Pepe, Pete, Saunders, Correa, trainer, chauffer, hangeron, member of entourage, long time associate etc etc.

Sounds like a cover up of what seems obvious:

Pepe Correa sucker punched Angelo Dundee out of some sort of pent up jealousy he had been harboring for years.

Class act.

You know when I first read, YEARS ago, about Dundee coming in to Ray's camp only a couple weeks before his fights, it didn't initially sit well with me either.

Then I began to understand that this is a much more common practice amongst big name, high profile trainers, such as Ray Arcel, Eddie Futch and Emanuel Steward, with their fighters.

Dundee should Not be singled out with how he worked with SRL.

It was NOT unique or unheard of.

Hawk

[10-8]

Remember that Dundee was not only Leonard's trainer, he was also his manager so he oversaw more than just getting Leonard into shape.

Trainer wrote this letter prior to Ray's fight with Floyd Mayweather Sr.

"I'm concerned by the lack of time and effort you've put into Sugar Ray. As the second highest paid person in the organization we all expected more. To date your involvement has consisted of arriving approximately two days before a fight, meeting with the press and working Ray's corner at fight time. We must adjust your compensation so that it is more in line with your duties."

Under their original contract, Dundee was to receive 15% of Ray's purse. Trainer later renegotiated Dundee's involvement on a fight to fight basis with a cap placed on Dundee's earnings. According to Dundee it was around the time of the Johnny Gant fight.

For the record Dundee's earning for the Hagler fight was less than 2% of Leonard's purse.

[hawk5ins]

he talks about how Trainer threw the new contract in front of Angelo, in front of the entire SRL team, prior to the Gant fight, prior to Ray leaving the dressing room for the actual bout.

In front of Ray, In front of Janks Morton, In front of Dave Jacobs, in Front of Ollie Dunlop, In Front of J.D. Brown (no Pete Saunders or Pepe Correa or a Joe or Jose there at the time though).

WHen Angelo looked around the room, everyone looked ELSEWHERE.

Not wanting to have this showdown right before a bout in front of his fighter, Dundeed signed the new contract.

Sure he could have squared off with Trainer, but what good does that do the fighter.

Ray in turn, IF HE WANTED TO, could have chosen the moment to back Angelo. He chose Not to.

WHen Trainer left the room, Ray was all buddy buddy again. But let's face it: Ray did NOT have Dundee's back.

Would have been interesting to see how things turned out if Dundee didn't cave or instead chose to walk.

Ray was a great no matter what. ANd Dundee did not MAKE SRL.

But he sure did help quite a bit in the process.

To your point Bill, Dundee's importance stretched well beyond ensuring Ray making weight.

Hawk

[10-8]

Here's what Dundee did for the Hagler fight which earned him less than 2% and eventually caused his exit when he wanted to be paid better for future fights.

"Finally, when Trainer sensed that Leonard's aides were tiptoeing instead of making their opinions known and enforcing their own instructions, he urged Dundee to come to Leonard's training camp in Hilton Head, S.C., five weeks before the fight instead of the customary two or three. "It's time to come in, pal," Trainer told the Miami-based Dundee. "If there was ever a time for you to step in and go one-on-one with Ray, this is it." Dundee arrived on Feb. 28, and he and Leonard immediately worked out a strategy and final training program.

"I can't give Angie enough credit," Trainer says. "Ray's talent was there. Angie helped choreograph it. He stepped in and filled a void."

Dundee knew that Hagler would often fight from a southpaw stance. As a rule, you never move to the right against a lefty, "because then you're moving into his left, his power hand," says Dundee. But Dundee also knew that Hagler is a converted southpaw and that his real power is on the right side. "You don't fight this guy the way you fight a regular southpaw," Dundee told Leonard. Instead he schooled Leonard on moving to Hagler's left.

"Move right, take a dip and nail him with a right hand," Dundee said. During the fight Leonard scored repeatedly with that very maneuver.

"That was the cleverest thing that Angie did," Trainer says. "Ray had his own theories on how to fight Hagler, but he needed Angie to reaffirm them."

Leonard and Dundee met at least once a day to discuss strategy. They worked on all the slipping and dipping and moving that Leonard displayed in the fight. "We worked on every movement to offset Hagler," Dundee says. "You know, feint one way and go the other. Head and hand feints, too. That's an art that's gone."

Dundee also entreated Leonard to lean on Hagler when he tied him up, and to push him and muscle him. "I told Ray, 'You're going to be able to move this guy. He's never been manhandled,' " says Dundee.

-Sports Illustrated

[hawk5ins]

that Trainer can only measure value in Dundee, by when he punches the clock in and out for the day.

Additionally, while Dundee certainly was the mouthpiece for the Leonard Training camp with the press, honestly, did Angelo ever come accross as "Look at me! Look what I can do! Look how Great a trainer I am!"

If anything, his deflection of what he contributed to Leonard's success and the humility and humbleness he displayed while praising and marveling Ray's talents as a fighter, were the exact OPPOSITE of this perception.

Maybe Trainer NEEDED to hear Dundee tout his own value and worth more often.

Hawk

[bodyblow]

that Trainer can only measure value in Dundee, by when he punches the clock in and out for the day.

Additionally, while Dundee certainly was the mouthpiece for the Leonard Training camp with the press, honestly, did Angelo ever come accross as "Look at me! Look what I can do! Look how Great a trainer I am!"

If anything, his deflection of what he contributed to Leonard's success and the humility and humbleness he displayed while praising and marveling Ray's talents as a fighter, were the exact OPPOSITE of this perception.

Maybe Trainer NEEDED to hear Dundee tout his own value and worth more often.

Hawk

I think thats a bit of a stretch. Dundee was never shy about marketing himself, period, he still isnt. Hell, thats how he got the job with Sugar Ray in the first place.

Furthermore, boxing has always been about paying handlers in preportion to the relative time and service within the business (the business being the fighters career and ability to generate money). Dundee was an advisor, which is fine, and in that capacity he had a lot of effect on Ray but I understand Trainer's side of the argument as well and if Dundee really thought he was worth more than that (which was still substantial compared to what he was making with anyone else) he could have walked away, but Dundee loved the limelight and knew that even at 2% he was going to be in the spotlight more than anyone else in Ray's camp and that alone would pay dividends. He was marketing himself.

Does anyone believe that if Dundee walked away they couldnt have gotten someone equally qualified (or moreso, because Ive never been that sold on Dundee's abilities) to do the same job with Leonard with little or no impact upon Leonards career? I dont. Dundee is most famous for training Leonard and Ali, two men who were famous for doing things their own way, not Dundees. Yet Dundee gets an undue amount of credit for two men who were going to develop in much the same fashion as they did with or without him.

I just think the guy is overrated and for the comparatively little amount of work he put into Leonard he made a lot of money that he cant complain about. Someone else on here called him Leonards manager, he was as much a manager to Leonard as he was a trainer. Leonard was a corporation and both his business and his training was run as such with many different people doing the roles that traditionally two or three people did in the old days. Dundee was one of many but because he was so visible he felt he should have gotten more. I dont agree with his logic.

[hawk5ins]

is most FAMOUS for Training Ali and SRL, becuase they themselves were such outstanding and marketably FAMOUS fighters.

But the work he did with fighters such as Basilio, Luis Rodrigues, Jose Napoles and Sugar Ramos, among so many others, can NOT be trivialized in any way shape or form.

These ALSO are HOFer's. And Angelo developed other fighters who were of lesser quality into champions as well, such as Pastrano, Dupas and Ellis.

And again, Angelo did nothing different than what Arcel did with Duran, Futch did with Michael Spinks and Larry Holmes as well as other fighters and what Manny Steward has done with countless high profile fighters.

To single Angelo out for coming in two weeks before a bout, I think is unfair.

To THink Trainer was going to get a trainer of the pedigree of Dundee to come in and work for 2% I think is pretty farfetched. ANyone think Eddie Futch coming in, doesn't do EXACTLY what Angelo did? IE have a Freddie Roach type trainer in Jacobs and Morton do the day to day and then FUtch comes in with a few weeks to go before the bout? Really?

Dundee has always displayed a pretty concrete loyalty. IMO that was why he stuck around despite the massive slap in the face from Mike Trainer.

SUre there was some ego involved as well. WHo wants to see someone else come in and finish what you did after what you had done up to that point (Gant)? Can't blame Angelo for that.

But IMO, he had an attachment with Ray and wanted to be there with him and for him.

THAT was why he sucked it up and took the 2% on the chin.

Hawk

[bodyblow]

"To think Trainer was going to get a trainer of the pedigree of Dundee to come in and work for 2% I think is pretty farfetched."


I dont. Not if the trainer is working 2 days out of a ten week camp and acting in an advisorial capacity as opposed to a full trainer.

You mean to tell me if you fight and make 1mil (and we all know Ray was making a lot more than that) and you call Angelo to come advise you on strategy two days before a fight and work your corner you would be happy to pay him 15%... $150,000? Get real. Youd be as irritated with that price tag as Ray was and wouldnt do anything different.

It was all business to Ray. Its funny that when fighters get the shaft and end up broke and walking on their heels they are dumb, stupid, immature, pathetic, and pitied etc etc. yet when one has the sense to higher a savvy financial manager who runs things like a business and makes good, common sense decisions hes greedy and controlling.

So Angelo got $20,000 for a couple of days work and giving his opinions on opponents etc. You wouldnt take twenty grand for that? I would and Id wear huge grin for it too.

[hawk5ins]

Why are you purposefully sidestepping the entire point I've brought up now on at least 3 different occasions re Trainers like Futch, Steward and Arcel, doing EXACTLY what Dundee did with SRL as it pertains to coming in a couple of weeks prior to the bout?

To think that Futch, Manny or Arcel, work for 2% is not only farfetched, it's dillusional.

To think that WERE these three to come in and work with Ray, that they would NOT have duplicated EXACTLY what Angelo did, is ignoring COMPLETELY, their history of doing.........EXACTLY the same thing Angelo did.

As an aside....when did this change from Dundee coming in two WEEKS before a Leonard fight, to two DAYS, before his fights?

Hawk

[bodyblow]

Manny Steward typically goes into camp and trains for the duration or majority of the camp.

Arcel at the time you refer to (Duran) was being paid as part of a team which included Freddy Brown (no slouch himself) I doubt either one got the full 15-30% and if they didnt thats fine.

Futch as well, until he was old and had a difficult time making it through a camp was a full time trainer, when he couldnt HE PAID his apprentices to do the grunt work, thats a big difference from Ray paying a full time trainer and then having an advisor come out for a couple of days. Thats the point, when you hired Futch (or even Roach who does this sometimes and was one of Futchs disciples) you are hiring their services and as such, as an employer, they have overhead that they bill you for. Dundee was hired on a one off basis, himself specifically, because they didnt any periphery trainers or handlers that he could bring to do his grunt work and as such he wasnt paid as he normally might be. Why that is difficult to accept I dont understand.

As I said before, if you are running a business and having to give up $150,000 of every $1,000,000 for essentially a couple of days of work you are going to quickly reevaluate the situation. Again, Angelo could have turned it down, but he didnt because he knew he was still making a great payday and getting exposure that acted as free advertising.

[hawk5ins]

with the "couple of days".

You keep changing this for some reason.

TRAINER himself has stated "2 to 3 weeks" prior to a bout, Angelo came to camp and he was unhappy with THAT arrangement.

Let's not exxagerate this to make things look worse than they were.

Who ever said Brown was a slouch? But the fact of the matter is Arcel did NOT come to camp until a couple weeks before the fight. Brown did the day to day.

RE Steward, I'm not talking about his relationship with Tommy Hearns. I'm talking about his working relationship with several fighters. He had a team at Kronk and no way could he do the day to day stuff with every fighter. So he had other guys do that.

And when he branched out, working with a Holyfield or a Hamed or countless others he freelanced with, it was the same thing.

Eddie Futch was seemingly old forever. But when he worked with fighters such as Michael Spinks and Larry Holmes, which goes back to 1981, Eddie did NOT come in until the last two or three weeks of camp.

Again, NOT unprecedented and Dundee was NOT unique in doing this.

And AGAIN, Ali and Leonard WERE stars. But to call him overrated becuase, those guys were going to be great regardless of who was in the corner, while ignoring what Dundee did with OTHER HOF fighter, like Ramos, Rodriguez, Napoles and Basilo as WELL as what he did with other champions like Dupas, Pastrano and Ellis, to say NOTHING of the work he did later in his career with fighters like Pinklon Thomas (see how well Pinky looked WITHOUT Dundee in his corner against Berbick?), is IMO very close minded.

BB, I'm right there with you in the Lamotta Zale discussion. But we are pages apart on this subject.

Makes things interesting when we have differing opinions I say.

Hawk

[10-8]

Trainer did actually accuse Dundee of only showing up two 'days' before a fight in the letter printed in 'I ONLY TALK WINNING.' Dundee didn't refute that statement.

I would think that Angelo came into camp earlier for Leonard's bigger fights.

[hawk5ins]

See that now on page 246.

Also like the note from SRL to Angelo about being the worlds greatest "manager".

Hawk

[robertk]

The thing with a Leonard and his ego is always going to be getting him to listen and follow instructions from the corner. Not so easy to do.

A guy like Angelo has that instant respect and Leonard listens. I'm sure if Ray had someone there just holding the spit bucket he didn't respect, he doesn't pull out the wins over Hearns or Hagler. Actually, Angelo getting excited in the corner was beneficial & was something the lower key guys like Arcel/Brown/Futch didn't do much of. I'm convinced it worked on Ray and low key would not. Angie was smart enough to know exactly what and when to say things between rounds. I guess it boils down to timing, if you will & Angie had it.

I love that Angie Dundee book & it is interesting reading and seeing how much of the sport is mental makeup between the greats and the guys like Tillis that just did not reach that status.

[10-8]

I agree with robertk who brings up a strong point that hasn't really been factored into the discussion, and that's Dundee's value in the corner during the fight. From the "you're blowing it kid" wake-up call in the Hearns fight to the multiple bits of advice againt Hagler "I want you to box...that is all" "Three rounds...you can do three rounds in your sleep" ...he always kept Ray on the task at hand and gave him that little motivational push. For that he was invaluable.

[theironbar]

I always liked this story and it might have something relevant to say about Angelo's value:

A man owned a house with a squeaky dining room floor. He paced that floor listening intently for the location of the squeak.

Each time he thought he found it, he would pull up the carpet and drive a nail into the floorboards. Each time, the squeak eluded him.

Eventually, he called in a carpenter.

The carpenter paced the floor, pulled up the carpet, and drove a single nail into the floor. The squeak disappeared.

The carpenter billed the man $100. The invoice said, “Driving one nail: $3. Knowing where to drive the nail: $97.”

[hawk5ins]

Angelo told a similar story in his latest book.

Except this was about a Lawyer who charged his client $500.25 for answering a legal question.

25 cents for the answer and $500 for knowing where to find the answer.

And then Angelo explains how the same is with a trainer. How the knowledge an experienced trainer gains over the years and then how he practices and the applies it.

Personally, I like your carpenter story better.

Hawk

[TDKO]

I've always respected Angelo and his boxing acumen, however,

I question when he was brought in to fine tune Oscar before the Pac fight,

did he know Oscar was not only shot, but underweight and overtrained?

I remember him discussing a "gameplan" on 24-7 .

Not trying to dis Him, just wondering, if he knew and took the check, or if he

was powerless to change anything at that point?

[10-8]

As the old saying goes, "You can't get blood from a stone." That's pretty applicable to Oscar for that fight.