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Thread: Muhammad Ali vrs Henry Cooper 1(1963)

  1. #1
    brutu
    Guest

    Muhammad Ali vrs Henry Cooper 1(1963)

    Any you guys watch the ringside show on ESPN classic,with some of the various fights of Muhammad Ali's carrer,with Brian Kenny and guests Burt Sugar,George Chuvalo?
    Well after they showed the first fight with Henry Cooper in Wembley stadium in London in 1963.
    In that fight Cooper landed a TREMENDOUS
    left hook on Ali's jaw as the fourth round was about to end.Ali got up but to me it looked like he may have been out on his feet and in his corner looked dazed and confussed.
    Brian Kenny and his paid guests said the knock down wasnt as serious as it ws claimed to be,and that the story got bigger over the years,as to how much time Ali received to recover due to a split glove(that reportly got even more spliter during the rest between fourth and fifth round.
    My qustion is,how much time didi really elaspe between the end of the fourth round and when the fifth round actually resumed?

  2. #2
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest
    Nobody will ever know how much extra time Ali received. Estimates range from zero to 3 min, however there is no doubt Ali was out on his feet. There's famous photo of Ali standing up with Dundee "attending" to his gloves. Ali's eyes are rolled all the way back like a zombie. Had Ali landed on the floor instead of the ropes it might have been a KO.

    BBC may or may not have the original audio and film of the match and could possibly verify and release a certified edition, but may have no compelling reason to do so. Otherwise I wouldn't trust a bootlegged copy which may have been tampered with to give the definitive answer.

  3. #3
    brutu
    Guest

    4th round knock down

    Yes,if you watch that particular fight on ESPN Classic again,notice how the film stock changes right before the bell rings for the fifth round?That would appear to me
    that either two different reels of film were edited together and that substantial footage had been thrown on the cutting room floor during editing.
    Some say it was several minutes at least other say only five seconds longer then the one minute rest between rounds.

  4. #4
    Dan1213
    Guest

    Re: 4th round knock down

    I just went through Ring magazine, NY Times and the BBBC round by round coverage of the fight. Only the BBBC coverage mentions the burst glove, but doesn't indicate a time delay. Will keep searching.

  5. #5
    Dan1213
    Guest

    Re: 4th round knock down

    Reading through Boxing Illustrated's coverage of the fight.

    "Though he had to be helped to his stool, Cassius recovered completely in the 60-second interval and, in the fifth, swarmed all over Cooper, blasting away with blinding speed".

    Again, no mention of the glove.

  6. #6
    Goofy Pimple
    Guest

    Put this old chestnut to bed

    British trade paper "Boxing News" got hold of the original BBC radio broadcast a few years ago - the round overran by around FOUR seconds!!

    No glove was changed!

    Henry Cooper himself stated in interviews to promote his most recent biography, that it was a load of bollocks. There was no extra time ..... it was just a tale for him to dine out on Ali's subsequent fame (well, words to that affect).

    Look at all the contemporary reports of the fight. Can you find ONE which mentions any extended delay between the rounds? No!


  7. #7
    GorDoom
    Guest

    Re: Put this old chestnut to bed

    I clearly remember watching the fight when it happened. After the knockdown there was a lot of hub bub in Ali's corner as they worked on resucitating him. But there was no delay. Ali was ready to go after the 60 second interim.

    This is just another old wives tale ... Ali has had more b.s. conspiracy theories weaved around him than the Grassy Knoll.

    GorDoom

  8. #8
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest

    Re: Put this old chestnut to bed

    [[[ Even Ol' 'Enry will tell you that. So do you want to believe the participants & the people who ACTUALLY watched the fight at the time or do you prefer conspiracies theories that are totally untrue?]]]]
    ==========================

    Ol'enery has long claimed there was a delay as well as did Dundee and reporters. They were participants. I was 11-12 when the bout was held, and like observations from young cub reporter Fleischer, I sincerely doubt I was up on what to key on in a bout as compared to adulthood and experience. Even now, if a bout goes an extra 30 sec I doubt I would be able to observe the discrepancy any more than if a rest period went an extra 20 sec.

  9. #9
    GorDoom
    Guest

    Re: Put this old chestnut to bed

    From working in corners since I was 7 years old & also having boxed I can VERY accurately tell you when 3 minutes or one minute has gone by. You work corners & watch & tape fights for decades & it just becomes instinctive.

    I imagine it's the same for a QB or a center in football. They don't need to look at the play clock to see how much time has elasped to know when the ball has to be snapped, they've got their own clock running in their heads.

    Same for me.

    GorDoom

  10. #10
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest

    Re: Put this old chestnut to bed

    [[[I clearly remember watching the fight when it happened.]]]
    =================

    How could you do that when it was in England and Ali was far from an international star? Why on earth would Cooper, Dundee, and reporters claim there was a delay?

    Like I note, the controversy could easily be laid to rest with a certified copy of the original bout, IF, IF, IF, the original exists.

  11. #11
    kikibalt
    Guest

    Re: Put this old chestnut to bed

    If memory serves, that fight was on t.v. as Ali was a star from his first pro fight, i remember seening that fight myself, it might have been tape delay, i don't know

    Frank B.

  12. #12
    HEGrant
    Guest

    Re: Put this old chestnut to bed

    Come on Bucket, what can you honestly say you remember from thirty years ago, the same thirty you spent in the music biz ...

    all kidding aside, Ali was badly hurt by that shot...I don't know about the delay, if it was real or not. What I do know is that he was saved from a KO in my opinion. The man was out on his feet. I have wondered if Ali developed the ability to absorb greater punishment as he got older. While Cooper nailed him with a beauty, it did not seem harder than Smoking Joe's or Shaver's right ...

  13. #13
    GorDoom
    Guest

    Re: Put this old chestnut to bed

    No, it probably wasn't harder than those shots but Ali was a lot lighter, inexperienced & got caught with a punch he didn't see coming.

    & Roberto, I happen to have an almost photographic memory despite my years of sex, drugs & rock & roll. In fact it's a curse ... There' a whole lotta shit I wish I could forget.

    But at any rate the fight was on broadcast TV, ABC as a matter of fact - & probably a tape delay as Mr. B pointed out. & yes, Ali was a star from the moment he turned pro & as a 12-13 year old kid I followed him avidly.

    That's why I can honestly say I remember the fight clearly - as clearly as I remember The Beatles on Ed Sullivan. These were huge moments in my youth & I remember them like they happened last month.

    Bottom Line: THERE WAS NO DELAY BETWEEN ROUNDS! All you Ali haters can spin your conspiracy theories but in this particular case you are absolutely incorrect.

    One more time: There was no delay between rounds. Even Ol' 'Enry will tell you that. So do you want to believe the participants & the people who ACTUALLY watched the fight at the time or do you prefer conspiracies theories that are totally untrue?

    GorDoom

  14. #14
    HEGrant
    Guest

    Re: Put this old chestnut to bed

    I saw the tape on classic myself and it's tough to tell...it does seem to skip a second between rounds...however, the whole thing can be legend.

    I'll tell you one thing...Ali had a great chin and he was seriously hurt by a 188 pound Cooper. He was also staggered by a right in the first round by Doug Jones...he was definately rocked numerous times by 204 pound Frazier...

    My point is that means, to me, that he definately could have been seriously hurt if caught by 185 pound Marciano or 190 pound Dempsey...meaning that the little guys had at least a solid punchers chance against any big man. The question is if they could have taken the punishment in return needed to survive when trying to land...not only against Ali , no huge hitter but against a Foreman or Tyson..you get my point.

  15. #15
    TKO11
    Guest

    The 'break'

    Dundee and Cooper both claimed in one of the Ali documentaries that there was a very long gap between rounds. However, I think they are both simply trying to add to the 'legend' here.

    As to the break in the tapes, it occurs when what we see is the ring from a distance, and the ringside crowd. Look at the positions of the audience members before the break and after the break. Identical. There is a guy standing up on the left side of the screen, and he has not moved an iota after the break in the tape. That break is milliseconds.

  16. #16
    StingerKarl
    Guest

    Cooper

    Henry seems to have changed his stories as the years have passed.
    He did indeed say several minutes had elapsed when I read an interview with him in the late 70's:eek
    He said that people went to the dressing rooms looking for an extra set of gloves and came back to the ring saying there were none.
    In fact; he said that he had cooled off once the next round began due to the delay.
    Losing track of events, Enery?

    Karl

  17. #17
    beddows
    Guest

    Re Clay-Cooper

    Britain's Boxing News had a big look at this a couple of years back, and Dundee won about five seconds at most for his fighter.

  18. #18
    walsh b
    Guest

    So what??

    What's the big deal, Clay got caught with a perfect powerful hook and was knocked down and when he got up it is clear as crystal he was out o his feet....so what??
    He came back out and did a number on Cooper, whether it was 60 secs or 600 secs, he took the shot, got back up and won the fight...the fact the shot knocked him down does not take away the fact Clay/Ali had a granite chin, his ability t recover from the shot says it all.

  19. #19
    Dan1213
    Guest

    Re: So what??

    Britain's Boxing News had a big look at this a couple of years back, and Dundee won about five seconds at most for his fighter.
    Dan,

    Regarding Clay v Cooper. Having referred to my Boxing News of the day there was scant info about the time delay. However, both Harold and I agree that after Clay got up at the count of four and the bell rang to end the round, Dundee complained about the gloves being split and following the minute interval probably brought his man another 30/40 seconds at most. With no more gloves immediately available the fight carried on even though Dundee might have further damaged the original glove. Sorry, but that's the best I can do without going to the National Newspaper Library.

    Kind regards,

    Barry

    The above is from IBRO Boxing Historians Barry Hugman and Harold Alderman from England.

  20. #20
    Todd Hodgson
    Guest

    .


  21. #21
    GorDoom
    Guest

    Re: .

    Thanks Todd!

    GorDoom

  22. #22
    Gallicrow
    Guest

    From Gordoom's PDF document

    As B.B.C. Reported the Fight
    New York Times (1857-Current file); Jun 19, 1963; ProQuest Historical Newspapers The New

    York Times (1851 - 2002) pg. 56

    As B.B.G. Reported the Fight
    Following are excerpts from the B.B.C. radio report of the Cassius Clay-Henry Cooper fight in London, as heard in the metropolitan area on WOR and recorded by The New York Times. The blow-by-blow description was by Simon Smith, the between-round commentary by Bar-rington Dalby.

    First Round
    Cooper belts him with a left and catches his man ... an explosive left hand from Cooper and

    that's the sort of stuff we want. ...He's pushed away by Cooper and Cooper comes after him with a left to the head. And, oh what a lovely sound for Henry CoopÂ*er here at Wembley... [crowd noise drowns out announcer] . . . He's a slow starter, they say, Henry Cooper, 'but he's not tonight, by golly .. . Clay is appealing to the referee that Cooper was holding and hitting. And the referee is lecturing to them.

    Between Rounds
    This is unbelievable. CoopÂ*er, always a slow starter, deÂ*cided tonight he'd start fast and he started fast with a beautiful left hook that shook Clay and from then on that was exactly the stimulus that Cooper needed to make him wicked. Cooper, once he gets a man on the hook, very rarely lets him off and after that he chased Clay round the ring. . . . Cooper's certainly done a grand job on him so far. If only he can keep this up, well, we don't have a thing to say.

    Second Round
    It's Henry Cooper, the BritÂ*ish champion, and Cassius Clay, the Lip from Louisville, the greatest, so he says, but at the moment he's dancing away as Cooper shows him that left hand that did so much damage in that first round, . . . Cooper really is boxing magnificently. Three good left hands there for Cooper in Clay's face-very good ones indeed. . . . Clay is not a bit happy at the moment. . . . Clay is looking bemused but he's very worÂ*ried at the moment. . . . But then as Clay comes in closer with a short sharp right, I see one of those cuts has apÂ*peared on Cooper's—just un-
    derneath Cooper's left eye... Clay, like the boxer he's reÂ*puted to be, comes after his man to try to open that cut. It's just beginning to trickle blood as the bell ends-round two.

    Between Rounds
    Well, Clay managed to wiggle off the hook. He was boxing better in that round but it was Cooper's round very clearly. . . . Now Cooper has' a slight cut under his left eye but nothing very serious.

    Third Round
    Clay is poking out his left hand now boxing something in the style we expect from the great Cassius Marcellus. A good left hand from Cooper - by God, a good left-hander from Cooper but Clay got anÂ*other one, a right hander, in between and it started that eye bleeding again. . . . It's cut and bleeding. Although Clay's not throwÂ*ing' as many punches as Cooper these punches are efÂ*fective.... Cooper's left eye is beginning to look a little bit bad now. This is the sort of thing, of course, that Cassius Clay does. He scientifically and systematically cuts up his opponent and that's why he stops so many inside the disÂ*tance. . . . It's bleeding a lot... Cooper is trying to come back. Clay left hands his man. Contemptuously left hands his man.

    Between Rounds
    That was Clay's best round but he still didn't win it. . . . Now I think his [Cooper's] judgment of distance is faulty because of the certain amount of blood running into his eye and he's probably worried about that. ... He [Clay] was able to be rather cheeky in that round.

    Fourth Round
    Cooper is still having trouÂ*ble with that left eye. . . . Cooper is obviously going to have trouble to go the disÂ*tance because of that left eye. . . . Clay now stops him with consummate ease. , . . Cooper is now desperate. That eye beÂ*gins to look bad again. . . . here is certainly in control of the bout at the moment but he does have his bad moÂ*ments. . . . Clay tries to come ba'ok and [loud shouts] Clay is down. Cooper has downed him. Oh, a beautiful punch there. And as the bell goe3 Clay has just been dropped by a beautiful punch by Cooper.

    Between Rounds
    Well, of all the cruel han luck. Clay just won that round. He was on top. And then Cooper

    just got the range and hit him with a beautiful left hook . . . Clay's left glove was burst... I say now that is an extraordinary thing because it means it they've got to exchange the glove they're going to give Clay a rest, which I think would be an awful pity, awful rough luck on Cooper. No he's not going to change it now . . .

    Fifth Round
    He's really swinging intc Cooper now ... No more o the contemptuous stuff. He'; split that eye again. . . Another left hand from Clay and that was a really good one. Cooper is bleeding badly now; his left eye is really pouring blood and Clay is making his man pay for drop' ping him in that last round ... He's covered with his own blood and I don't think it wil be allowed to go on.
    Clay comes after Cooper And Cooper is a terrible sight now. . . . And even hard or the American boxer . . . At ringside they're saying stop it. They're chucking newspaÂ*pers into the ring and the ref eree has gone across to Cooper and he has stopped it.

    After the Fight
    It just would have been merciless and ridiculous and pointless to allow him to go on. . . .
    Clay is the winner. And now Clay has silenced the crowd because even today at the weigh-in at the London Palladium up on stage there they were booing him when he pointed to Cooper, indiÂ*cated that Cooper had no chance, pointed to himself and said I will win and showed how again with five—five-fingers. He said all along he would win-in round No. 5. And well he's done it. But he must certainly think he's a lucky man really that Cooper's eye made it imÂ*possible for the British boy to continue. ... A good perform-ance there by Henry Cooper.

    Not good enough against f.is —this [chuckle] terrible man Cassius Clay, who is now showing round five and what can one say. He did win it in round five when the refÂ*eree stopped it.

    Reproduced with permission of the copyright owner. Further reproduction prohibited without permission.

  23. #23
    StingerKarl
    Guest

    Re: From Gordoom's PDF document

    I don't care what you guys say; as far as I am concerned-Cooper knocked him out.

    Karl

  24. #24
    GorDoom
    Guest

    Re: From Gordoom's PDF document

    So you're right & everybody else is wrong? That's pretty good man, I've never been able to pull that off.

    Logic usually gets in the way ....

    GorDoom

  25. #25
    StingerKarl
    Guest

    Re: From Gordoom's PDF document

    A good hook puts the lights out, Bucket.
    Logic has nothing to do with it, bro.
    Fights are decided in the ring between two individuals, not on a computer 40 plus years after the fact.
    Cooper put the guy on ice-bottom line.
    Angie should have sent the guy out like he was or Clay should have been disqualified.
    With your experience, I would think you would know that.

    Karl

  26. #26
    bodyblow
    Guest

    Film

    The un altered film of this fight exists and shows no more than a couple of seconds delay at most. This argument is so silly its beyond comprehension.

  27. #27
    GorDoom
    Guest

    Re: Film

    Thank you Bodyblow for your added dose of reality. Much appreciated.

    Karl:

    I'm not saying Ali didn't get nailed. He absolutely did. Cooper had a helluva left hook & he hit him with one that he didn't see coming. & as I know you know the ones you don't see coming are the debilatating ones.

    I agree that Ali -actually Clay at the time - was out on his feet as he staggered back to the corner. No argument there ...

    BUT, as we all now know Clay/Ali had remarkable recuperative powers & that was the first time he demonstrated them. The bell rang for the ensuing round & Clay came out & did a number on "Our 'Enry" & the fight was stopped.

    Where we disagree Karl is that if Clay was as wasted as you claim he was he wouldn't have been able to come out & mess Cooper up enough to be stopped.

    As I wrote earlier in this thread I saw this a week later on tape delay with my own eyes & I remember it vividly.

    & to paraphrase The Eagles, I don't have lying eyes.

    & neither did the BBC report that you read above. The whole yarn about the long delay is just another mythical canard about Ali & just another one of the innumerable Grassy Knoll conspiracies that Ali haters love to
    promulgate about him.

    GorDoom

  28. #28
    Roberto Aqui
    Guest

    Re: Film

    [[[[[The whole yarn about the long delay is just another mythical canard about Ali & just another one of the innumerable Grassy Knoll conspiracies that Ali haters love to
    promulgate about him.]]]]]]]]]]]
    ==============================

    How is it mythical when key participants are on record as saying there was a delay. Are Cooper and Dundee Ali haters?

    If everyone had kept their mouth shut there would be no controversy. I appreciate the PDF transcription, but it proves nothing to me. The controversy still rages and no clear picture has emerged. Like I say, BBC could probably put the whole thing to rest with a fully tested and certified complete audio and video DVD release. They might even make some money, but more importantly they'd get some good pub for their brandname.

  29. #29
    beddows
    Guest

    Re Clay-Cooper

    Karl, that's a statement bordering on the insane. Clay was fighting in London, remember. Nobody was doing him any favours. He was floored, the bell denied Cooper a chance to follow up, and Clay came out and stopped Cooper a couple of minutes later (in the round he predicted he would win in).
    FACT.

  30. #30
    walsh b
    Guest

    Karl

    The best man won that night in London, and even if Clay hadn't got up and was KO'd he'd stil be as great today....

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