Bert Sugar's Top Ten Heavyweights...

[BDeskins]

Valuev...well then how about Vitali Klitschko...a giant who most certainly had to land a lot of punches before the ref would finally stop it...the same Vitali who basically could not put a dent in the questionable chin of Lennox Lewis, yet two smaller guys come alone and one puts Lewis down and out, or how about Lance Whitaker, or Jameel McCline...I would try to name some others, but the real big fighters rarely ever make it to the top...again...size doesn't mean shit. Another fine example would be all the steroid shooting body-builders with gigantic arms which can lift 200lbs and yet they still punch like a girl! About the only two big guys that I can think of right off hand that had really good punching power is Lennox Lewis and Wlad Klistchko, but Wlad's chin and lack of durability completely negates his punching prowess!

Fact...throughout history take a look at who the hardest punching heavyweights of all-time were...they were guys like Joe Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Fitzsimmons, Satterfield, Tommy Gomez, Shavers, Tyson and Foreman...Foreman is the only one to really qualify as big...again...size means dick!

And for the 4oz. gloves to be such a big advantage, well the guys who fought with 4oz gloves fought once, twice, sometimes five times a month with 4oz gloves...it looks like if they had been such punishing weapons the guys would have fought as least as possible!

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[About the only two big guys that I can think of right off hand that had really good punching power is Lennox Lewis and Wlad Klistchko, but Wlad's chin and lack of durability completely negates his punching prowess!]]]
====================

Willard had a right hand equivilent to Lewis. Your comment about Wlad is curious seeing as he's been quite successful.

Vitali doesn't try to punch with maximum effect. He's a thudding type of puncher with a high % connect rate and just wears a fighter down. He has small hands that he has to protect. He was powerful enough to have Lewis staggering around like a drunken sailer all through that fight.

The big heavy is a relative recent phenomena. Before they were the exception, not the rule. Timing has a lot to do with power, and most big guys have been just clumsy enough to blunt their power with inferior timing. It's just a matter of time before a big guy comes along with the training and talent to go where no big guys have ever gone. Moorer is working with JD Chapman who may or may not prove to be that guy. Guys like Dempsey or Louis don't grow on trees either.

[DEEAGLE]

BD, with each of your posts you really show me a lack of understanding of not only the physical make up of fighters but as a whole that you've not been anywhere near a gym in over 50 years or so. So size means DICK HUH? You maybe right in the DICK department, but you're SADLY mistaken in the boxing arena. When was the LAST time you saw a hwt champ 5FT tall & weighing a 120LBS? Please ENLIGHTEN everyone? When was the last time you ACTUALLY sparred with a hwt lets say weighing 240lbs? When was the last time you sparred in the same day with a lgtweight weighing 135lbs. Please TELL EVERYONE how much HARDER that lgtweight punched then that hwt??? This I'd love to hear. Now your point about the Klit, obviously stopping 32 guys out of 34 guys is not enough for you, HOWEVER you keep bringing up Valeuv, have you even seen him? You might as well bring up Jim Jeffries & all the FILMS we have on him. How about Henry Armstrong, how come he did'nt win the hwt title, I mean if size means DICK then hammering Hank should've won it, Ray Robinson also, & the Moongoose most certainly should've won it, he had more K.O's then anyone else. Funny thing happened to him, everytime he faced a hwt he lost. Bob Foster I think you'll admit was a hard puncher, still at hwt BANG he was a failure. Now it was pointed out to you that the big hwt is a relatively new creature, Lewis & Bowe were at this time the 2 best big men. Lewis could punch I would say, & we were not speaking about Valeuv, just the way we were not speaking about Willie Pep, I'm SURPRISED you did'nt say that Pep could beat any hwt because they would'nt be able to find him. My comments about trainers having problems holding the mitts for the bigger stronger hwts must've went over your head, perhaps you should try holding those mitts for a couple of days & see how your back feels, neck, shoulders etc. A guy that's been around the game as long as yourself shows me that you still need a brush up course about the difference in power between the bigger men & the lighter men. I would think you need also to go a gym & watch CERTAIN hwts workout, & then see CERTAIN 135lbers, 147lbs & 160lbers workout, then comeback & tell everyone that SIZE MEANS DICK. 1 other small point,if you think 4OZ gloves are not any different from 12 OZ gloves, I suggest HIGHLY you go to your doctor for a checkup, something is WRONG!!!

[thumper3852]

The discussion wasn't about lightweights and welterweights against heavies...it was smaller heavies versus bigger heavies.

Mere size alone does not determine the outcome of a fight, no more than does power.....boxing is so much more than that.

[kikibalt]

T-3852
I agree with you 100%

Frank B.

[GorDoom]

DEEagle:

Your new to this board & I suggest you read the note at the top for all new posters. Everybody has a right to their opinions but we're not into confrontational b.s. on this board. We treat each other with respect or your outta here.

That doesn't mean that vehement discussion is not welcomed but when you get personal you cross the line ...

You're obviously an ardent fan & that's fine. We welcome people with a passion for boxing here. We just don't welcome confrontational crap that can lead to flame wars. If that's what you are into there are plenty of other boards for that stuff.

So ... Welcome aboard our board just cool it with the venting & getting personal.

GorDoom

[DEEAGLE]

Gordoom I thank you for the welcome, I really do, but perhaps you could take some time & see if my responses are in line with what is being thrown at me. I mean you would'nt want me to walk into the ring with a guy throwing leather at me & then not be able to defend myself. I've noticed that you have not said a word to anyone that was taking their shots at me. BTW if you think I'm here just to start wars with the guys here I'll leave, that is not my intention. But i also don't have to hear B.S hurled at me when guys are making either incorrect or using outright & intentionally wrong facts. Since I watched & have been part of this game for many years I know my history & I know what to look for in this game, if this is OFFENDING anyone then it's time for them to brush up & take a new look at how their ideas are put together. No one is going make me accept incorrect facts or downright made up stories. When a guy states things like Holmes side stepped a Frazier or Foreman & I point out that they were retired by the time Holmes had the title, the response to me was DUH & other responses as intelligent. Now if I'm telling you anything incorrect then I'll leave but if I'm telling you the truth I suggest you take issue with the guys that started hurling the stones in the 1st place. let me know if you want me to find other real estate or if you think my knowledge isn't up to snuff on this board, but when I say Jeffries was beating up on smaller guys & guys are challenging that then it shows me that they're not really concerned with facts but would rather say that it was'nt so, I guess the records books are all incorrect. As for my opinions about the smaller hwts vs the bigger hwts, I was'nt the guy who brought up lgtweights & welters punching out bigger men that was a guy on your own staff, I was merely responding to his post, wihich was extremely inaccurate..thanks Deeagle

[mike21]

part of the game? im very surprised to here that you spent any time at all in a boxing gym, not some kickboxing gym- your analysis is often frought with theory rather than gym experiece.you, as well as anybody with background should know that how one is built means nothing --size means nothing unless you are one of the comparitive very few with the talent to maximize your phsiological potential.and i f you think its your way or the highway, believe me , you will be bounced from here and can argue in adolescant fashion on those kid boards. this is the TOP board in the world in boxing, and as you, i am lucky to be on it, and try to wise enough not to be bounced off it!

[GorDoom]

DEEAGLE:

I am by no means trying to run you off the board. You may not be aware of it but this board is populated by former world champions, boxers, retired & current, promoters, managers, cornermen, boxing historians, boxing writers & hard core aficionado's.

There is a LOT of boxing knowledge on this board. I've been a fighter, a boxing writer & I still work corners. I've been doing this for 49 years & I've always felt I've had a pretty good grasp of the fight game.

BUT ... Since we've started this board I learn something new all the time. You have to keep an open mind. I've even had opinions I was rock solid about changed because I listened & learned.

You mentioned people firing back at you & that's not something I'm crazy about either. But you have to understand you joined the board & came out firing aggressively - people are going to react to that. I guess all I'm saying is that EVERYBODY here need to be respectful of each other or the board will turn to absolute chaos like most boards on the net.

& to a large degree we do mantain that respect & that's why this board works so well.

So anyway, like I said, I have no desire to have you leave just understand that not everybody agrees on everything but we still remain civil to each other.

GorDoom

[DEEAGLE]

Thank you for that civil response, as long as anyone here wants to be civil with me I'm more then happy to respond like a man as I believe men should be able to speak.
Mike21, was'nt it you who called me Doogle & you talk about being a child? Or you mentioned that I would be thrown off because I will not be battered by a guy like you? LMAO, now because you think that size does'nt matter or that perhaps Louis was the best puncher, then that is your take on it. please don't tell me I've not been in a gym or if I have it was for martial arts, although I did study martial arts that has nothing what so ever to do with my take on it. I've seen to many men in the gym (including myself years before) figure that they could take on the bigger stronger hwts, the results are to say the least not very good. Ask any trainer if he ever had a guy 135-175lbs that could bang like a fine tuned 220-250lber? As a matter of fact if the men on this site would like to chime in then please do, because I'd love to find a fighter or hear about 1 that hits like a Tyson or a Foreman weighing less then 200lbs. And as I said & it's not theory, ask any trainer who works with the bigger hwts & ask them if they have back problems, arm problems, shoulder problems, neck problems, ETC as a result of being moved when a mack truck hits you.

Gordoom, I know & appreciate there are some ex fighters & people associated with the game here, I'll take some ZIP off my shots I would'nt want to TYSON anyone.

[GorDoom]

Cool .... I'm down with that. Btw: Mike 21 is a VERY respected boxing coach & trainer with decades of experience. He shouldn't have called you Doogie but maybe from this point forward we can nip all this extraneous nonsense in the bud & just talk boxing like adults.

GorDoom

[mike21]

im not refferring specifically to tyson or whoever, but little old me at 142 used to as is custom for all boxers, sparr with any one at any weight- sometimes by some i got mashed, other times, i had the skills to win- guys from 200 to 300 pounds. but, you answered the question fair enough; it was not a boxing gym. listen, in all honesty and most importantly, for your own knowlwdge and INTEREST go to a fight gym-YOU WILL LOVE IT_ there is nothing more exciting except sex than a boxing gym; obviouly some of it wears off; but it gets in your blood more, much more than any other sport or self defense. if i could, i would move next door to a gym, and be there all the time. but, chill out. the listons of this world could fight and hit, but the weight factor can be delusional and misinformed when compared to super puchers of a dempsey or louis. not that they positively did- but it is more than possible that the hardest hitting 190 pound ever could actually hit harder than the hardest hittng 250 pounder ever because of their own specific phsyiology (just as the harder hitting 250 pound) and physics- f= m times accerlation to the fifth9non linear accerlation which a punch and boxing is) but mass and acceraltion are all influenced by torque, momentum,inertia, moment of inertia,velocity,center of mass, balance, timing, etc. so is it proble that foreman hit harder- not in physics- it would have to do with his own psyiologyy in any and all cases from 180 and above. got to go

[mike21]

and it is equally probable a 190 pound demspey hit harder than any other man. bye thanks.

[mike21]

and equally possible for a 190 pound man to hit harder than any man on earth.

[kikibalt]

The bigger they are the harder they fall

Frank B.

[PeteLeo]

I always felt that there was a sort of "upper limit" in height and weight performance for boxers, around 6' to 6' 4" and 190 to 220lbs. Just my personal observation (I'm not qiute as taken with Riddick Bowe as some).
I know that even a height-based endeavor like basketball admits that once you go much beyond 7', you're in a zone of diminishing returns. (Jordan, Johnson, Byrd, Walton, these guys could play anyone off the boards, and they were between 6'9" and 6' 11", I think).
Gil Clancy said that a good two hundred pounder could hit hard enough to knock out a man of any size (his example was Louis, who KO'd eveything from light-heavies to giants). Maybe things will change in the future, if naturally huge -- not pathologically oversized -- athletes continue to seek their fame and fortune in the ring, but so far not a single person of any consequence over 6' 3" has failed to be beaten by a smaller man, am I right? Valuev has a decent chance at upsetting Ruiz, but he still needs to prove himself in my eyes.
It's all conjecture, but that's what a board like this one is designed for, right? PeteLeo.

[jyoungfan2]

I was watching frazier/ali III the other night on classic and was thinking almost the same thing.

Patterson, jerry quarry, ezzard charles were 6'0". Speed, power, stamina, balance, mobility.

Ali is 6'3", Foreman 6'3" and 1/2, holmes is 6'3". Not only were these men big, but they could move. speed, size, tremendous power, mobility, balance. joe louis was 6'2".

Lewis is 6'5", wlad 6'6", carnera 6'5", vitali 6'7" and 1/2. Very large men, but a bit awkward and suspect chins. power and size.


there are naturally exceptions to every list, frazier 5'11, tyson 5'10, and marciano 5'11" to name a few. solid base and awesome punching power.

[walsh b]

And Jimmy your post proves to me that these greats of the ring were the true p4p greatest fighters......

[DEEAGLE]

Mike said:im not refferring specifically to tyson or whoever, but little old me at 142 used to as is custom for all boxers, sparr with any one at any weight- sometimes by some i got mashed, other times, i had the skills to win- guys from 200 to 300 pounds. but, you answered the question fair enough; it was not a boxing gym. listen, in all honesty and most importantly, for your own knowlwdge and INTEREST go to a fight gym-YOU WILL LOVE IT_ there is nothing more exciting except sex than a boxing gym; obviouly some of it wears off; but it gets in your blood more, much more than any other sport or self defense. if i could, i would move next door to a gym, and be there all the time. but, chill out. the listons of this world could fight and hit, but the weight factor can be delusional and misinformed when compared to super puchers of a dempsey or louis. not that they positively did- but it is more than possible that the hardest hitting 190 pound ever could actually hit harder than the hardest hittng 250 pounder ever because of their own specific phsyiology (just as the harder hitting 250 pound) and physics- f= m times accerlation to the fifth9non linear accerlation which a punch and boxing is) but mass and acceraltion are all influenced by torque, momentum,inertia, moment of inertia,velocity,center of mass, balance, timing, etc. so is it proble that foreman hit harder- not in physics- it would have to do with his own psyiologyy in any and all cases from 180 and above. got to go

1st I want to congratulate you, at 142 years young getting the best of guys 200-300lbs is a TREMENDOUS accomplishment, I'm only 120 years old but I hav'nt beat up on any 300lbers in nearly 50 years now, please tell me how you've keep so strong at 142? :lol Next case, I don't know why when I ask guys a question on this site I for some reason cannot get an answer? Besides several questions that were side stepped by Roberto, you Mike hav'nt answered a question you should be capable of answering, how many trainers that you know or maybe yourself has had problems when using the mitts on bigger guys? I have seen & know trainers that have all complained of back,neck,shoulder problems as a result of being hit & moved by the bigger men. My point is, if size & weight does'nt play into this power equation then why do trainers all seem to be having difficulty handling the bigger stronger guys? Another point that another esteemed poster could not or would not answer, I asked Mr E if size & weight mean DICK like he said why are there no men 5ft tall & 120lbs the hwt champ of the world? Also since there are a lot of former fighters on here & trainers both current & former, why is it that no one answered just how many 135lbers,147lbers, 160lbers etc feel like fighting hwts is as easy as fighting men their own size? And if it's like fighting a man their own size with no major difference in power, then how long has it been since they sparred with hwts? This I've got to hear. But if size & weight don't mean DICK then we should get rid of all these weight divisions completely, my sense of it would be fighters would be getting killed everyday,those days of 4OZ gloves & Wilde fighting guys 60-100lbs heavier would not fly today, as I.M.O it should not!!!I would also still say Tyson, Foreman,Shavers still punches much harder then any man who weighed 185-200lbs, again if weight & size don't matter a guy like Barrera would be the hwt champ.1 other small point, since guys like Dempsey & Louis used 4OZ & 6OZ gloves, does ANYONE here have an opinion that if a Tyson, or a Foreman used these same gloves they would have more K.O's on their ledger as a result of using lighter gloves or LESS K.Os?

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[Ali is 6'3", Foreman 6'3" and 1/2, holmes is 6'3". Not only were these men big, but they could move. speed, size, tremendous power, mobility, balance. joe louis was 6'2".

Lewis is 6'5", wlad 6'6", carnera 6'5", vitali 6'7" and 1/2. Very large men, but a bit awkward and suspect chins. power and size.]]]]
==========================

Holmes may have been able to move well before he held the title, but he was a stationary upright fighter for the bulk of his title defenses. Foreman was hardly known for his ring movement though it appeared he could move in as quick as was needed.

Lewis and Wlad are quite fluid and moved well when they want. No, they were not Ali, but they are good athletes.

Vitali has never even been knocked down, not even when Lewis held his head down and delivered a succession of KO highlight uppercuts to him. Vitali does not have a suspect chin.

[Roberto Aqui]

]]]]Besides several questions that were side stepped by Roberto[[[[
===================

First thing you learn in the country is what to sidestep in the pasture and the barn.

[DEEAGLE]

Absolutely especially when most of the droppings are caused by you!!!:lol

[HEGrant]

I agree that Wlad has a very solid chin .. he took monster shots from Lewis and a few great ones from Saunders and took them well...his brother is another mater entirely...

[PeteLeo]

Wlad?
Was he taking those punches well while Vitali was knocking down Mercer?
Couldn't pass those two up. PeteLeo.

[mike21]

to the readers. as most of you already knoe, lightweights routinly sparr with heavy, middles etc.i agree that in height and weight, to be a heavyweight of the century- being to tall and heavy will limit you to a near great status- only- which still is pretty damn good.

[mike21]

as far as the 6 oz gloves- why is it the opponents of louis get so mangled and luois barely a bruise- why did dempsey break peoples faces with 6 or 20 oz gloves-and he never had besided his nose- anything broken. mainly because i used to spar with 6 oz and they had the padding up front and had beautiful leather- some of those gloves were less lethal than the 8 or 10 ounces. thing is both guys are getting hit with the same thing.the 2 ouces gloves- well those i never would spar with- no way.

[mike21]

i aree also with kid, pete, and others- 190 to 220 is about it. height 6 foot 3 around there.there can or will be near greats bigger than that, but never a great. less and less talented athletes and real tough hombres with balls are going into boxing, worldwide, this has a seriuos effect and it will continue to lessen -not even maintain its numbers. thanks. bigger than the 63 ,one eventually will become the hittee not the pitcher- stanima, power, speed,timing all these things mention by others,,tend to go down- body to hand coordination,etc

[HEGrant]

Pee Wee: Just can't leave enough alone small fry, can you ? Don't make me have to bit-h slap you again. It's too easy and so much fun.

[Monte Cox]

Some people just dont get it.

DEEagle reminds me of another poster on another sight that I ran into. I spanked him, although he was too ignorant to know it.

Here is that post:

coxscorner.tripod.com/eastgonesouth.html

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[[[[[Revolver has criticized Louis saying that Joe "couldn't adapt" and hence was a "dummy" ]]]]]]]]
================================

Yeah, Louis was such a dummy he left almost every fighter he faced speechless on the canvas. Louis must've "projected his dumminess!"