Bert Sugar's Top Ten Heavyweights...

[PeteLeo]

Ah, He, does it really hurt your feewings when I playfully point out only a few of your many, many mistakes around here (Wlad's "great chin," Viltali "knocking down Mercer," etc.)? It's all done in fun, I assure you, kiddo. I just thought that since you started it up again (the "relative punching power" posting), you wanted me to play along. Guess I was mistaken.
One thing: you might need to look up the real meaning of the term "bitch-slap," however. Sorry, but it doesn't mean that the bitch does the slapping.
Later, hon. PeteLeo.

[PeteLeo]

Man, this thread is turning into a real cat fight, isn't it? Meeoowww!

Clemenza to Michael Corleone in THE GODFATHER: "These things have to happen every five, ten years. Helps to get rid of all the bad blood." PeteLeo.

[BDeskins]

Whenever we need to do that we'll just start talking politics!!

[DEEAGLE]

Monte:Some people just dont get it.

DEEagle reminds me of another poster on another sight that I ran into. I spanked him, although he was too ignorant to know it.


It's you whose getting his panties all twisted. You even have made it your business to bring your DIRTY LAUNDRY from another site onto this site, & then project it on me,talk about a DUNCE!!!. You pulled this SHIT out of your AZZ & then attack me?? Now after this I'll remember to put you on ignore, with a special note, PHONEY boxing historian knows how to pitch but CANNOT catch. Now wipe your tears shorty.

[Roberto Aqui]

Hell, go check out Box Rec's alltime heavy ranking. Charles is number 1 and Bivins is 4th!

[PeteLeo]

How do they arrive at this line-up? Is it based on some complicated mathematical system or something? (I doubt that it is derived from personal preferences.) PeteLeo.

[GorDoom]

Eagle:

I warned you once but you've really crossed the line. The man you called a "dunce" & a "phony historian", Monte Cox, has forgotten more about boxing than you've ever learned.

Monte is a VERY respected historian who has written for the CBZ for years. We are also both members of the International Boxing Research Org. While I've never met Monte we've corresponded for years & I consider him a friend.

The "Golden Rule" here is no personal attacks. You're constant derision in your posts & the personal jabs, have gotten real tired. Your attitude seems to be that by being overly aggressive you're somehow getting over on people.

Well ... This board is not about playing the dozens. We're here to share our love & respect for the sport. Sure there are plenty of differing views, boxing is a passionate sport populated by passionate people. But we respect each other here & don't attack each other personally.

What you do is treat everyone with contempt. Well do it some place else. Calling Monte a dunce & a phony historian just shows what a complete moron you are.

GorDoom

[rocky111]

All that show proved was that Bert Sugar is NOT a boxing historian by a long shot. It also proved that the media is full of political correctness. Here the guy for years has had Jack Dempsey as number one and when he gets the shot at the national media to say what he really feels, he suddenly moves Ali and Louis to the front. Now you know why Dempsey fans are so passionate. If Jack could or could not beat other guys is not the question. But its the insanity to force the public to forget the guy and what he meant to millions for the sake of promoting others. This is a hidden agenda and Bert Sugar is a joke to me. Hes doing what he has to do to get the exposure. I laughed through this thing at mistakes Sugar made. Monte Cox, Ron LIpton or MIke Delisa or Sal Rappa for example would have been better choices to host such a show.

[Ronald Lipton]

I would just like to say one thing quickly here about punching power. I know a little bit about it, as all I cared about for years was to learn, execute, teach and study how to hit harder and harder with both hands.

Jack Chappie Blackburn, Sam Langford, Lew Jenkins, Jimmy Wilde, Eduardo Lausse, Rubin Carter, Satterfield, and so many others in their prime on a given night could take out just about any man if he walked into their shots.

I also include Ruben Olivares from what Gor-Doom saw with his own eyes in the gym. This guy hit the bag with the power of a heavyweight.

I will not even mention me in the same dream or breath as these great men. Just as an additional note, look at the film of me hitting the bag at almost age 60. When I was in my late 30's, I was constantly knocking out guys in the gym who weighed well over 220 not to mention in my job as a bouncer.

It is speed, timing, harnessing deep muscular fiber into the punch from everywhere, hard hands, snap, balance, body dip, great torque on the punch, use of pulling the trigger deep through the midsections entire group of muscle, getting the legs quickly into the shot, and a powerful forearm twist upon impact helps too.

All that =a man named Joseph Louis Barrow.

[Ronald Lipton]

I forgot to add one of the most important ingredients.

Terrific hand speed.

[handtomouth]

ronald re:

>>>It is speed, timing, harnessing deep muscular fiber into the punch from everywhere, hard hands, snap, balance, body dip, great torque on the punch, use of pulling the trigger deep through the midsections entire group of muscle, getting the legs quickly into the shot, and a powerful forearm twist upon impact helps too.>>>

excellent description... concise but covers all the bases...

for me it actually points even more to dempsey then louis ... it precisely describes why dempsey had so much freakish power for a guy, who at first appearance (esp to the more novice) on film, seems too wiry to topple the tree top 220lb + guys...

what you succinctly described so well.. is exactly what the 185lb dempsey uncorked in perfect collective kinetic force, when he hit willard w/ the last punch of the 4 punch sequence in the first knockdown of willard...

that particular left was a reaping scythe from hell, released as if from the tension of a steel cord being cut away from the golden gate bridge ... it completely caved in & shattered willards right cheek bone plate & and knocked the senses out of a fighter who to my knowledge hadnt even been stunned before in a fight... simply stated... it was the most devasting left hook ever in a major fight.

the point you made about harnessing deep muscular fiber & pulling the trigger deep through the midsections entire group of muscle... also point precisely to why bowed up low rep weight lifting muscle isnt the same as labor intensive dense muscles.. wh/ again is why a guy like dempsey got a lot of mileage from years of past mining & agric work and later axe training... or why anyone w/ any sense tends to fear the punch of a hardened construction worker... moreso then a bowed up weight rm addict...

lastly in re to your point on great torque on the punch... something i'd add to that in re to the great power punchers who were 205 lbs and down .... is that i've noticed w/ many of these punchers they not only have long arms wh/ helped creating the centrifugal force creating the torque... but they also had proportonally longer upper torsos then usual from the waist up... if you couple a strong long back w/ powerful shoulders and long, strong forearmed arms... you get physical assets if used w/ gifted balance and agility of timing thru the legs that can be lethal in their ability to break down opponents...

unlike someone w/ tall long legged frames over 6"3", you dont needs as much distance from your opponent to unleash full power... and you can maximize the power of your shoulder rotation and snap into the opponent w/ the added force of a long powerful back following thru it...

i've specifically noticed this w/ louis, marciano and dempsey in frame and on action in film... wh/ in each case accounts for some much power i think w/in close distance... i understand that fitzsimmons and langford were also blessed w/ long upper torsos.

[HEGrant]

Sure Pee-Wee, keep correcting me like how Liston, Foreman, Shavers and Tyson were overated as punchers...we can all learn from you. Mine ws a name slip...yours was simply a lack of knowledge...it's all right in the thread. Memoralized. As to your leel of knowledge :rollin

[PeteLeo]

Maybe more than one name slip, huh, boobala? Like say, every second or third name you toss out? But it's part of that warm, indefinable charm you weave over us all.

Liston, Foreman, Tyson overrated as punchers? Only in relation to Louis, I'd say. I do contend that Earnie is a little bit mythologized by fans (including me from time to time). He was hell on second-raters, but his resume against the upper tier of fighters is a rather barren one: Ellis, Norton, and . . . whom? If he were really "the hardest puncher in boxing history," as I've read him described by more than one observer, it just seems to me than he would have shown it against at least a few really tough jamokes.

Gotta admit, however, you've got me dead to rights regarding your last sentence there, pard. I have no idea at all just what my "leel" of knowledge is in the grand scheme of things. Maybe watching my tape of "Vitali" decking Mercer again will help me work that one out?

Happy holidays! PeteLeo.

[HEGrant]

Pee Wee, your lack of knowledge is obvious but excusable...no one ever said you were bright or interesting...however, your recent attempts to revise your all time ignorant position from this thread by resorting to name calling, deflection and personal attacks is sad, a bit pathetic but obviously reflective of who you are Old Man. Just another keyboard bigshot.

I openly question if Gor holds his "staff" to the same standards he asks of the other posters. If so, now is the time to show it. Pee Wee is discrediting the positons and standards we are asked to uphold...

Regardless, you'll always be know as Pee Wee, the man who wrote that Liston, Foreman, Shavers and Tyson were overated as puncher and worse, the man when confronted about it, choose to resort to personal attacks rather than admit first he wrote a dumb piece.

Pee Wee , this is your legacy. It's fair, memorialized and accurately reflects your (limited) knowledge and talents...Quit while your behind, obviously a position your used to and comfortable with.

[HEGrant]

Sorry there, I notice that Pee Wee is not staff...sorry Board.

[GorDoom]

Evan:

Who is Pee Wee? & why did you get on my case about him? Btw: Did you ever talk to that webmaster you mentioned?

GorDoom

[PeteLeo]

I think he's talking about me, but, with that sweet little guy, it's difficult to be sure what exactly he's aiming at. Apparently, I'm not allowed to have the opinion that Louis was a better/harder puncher than Tyson, Shavers, Foreman, and Liston, but that's okay. He thinks Wlad Klitschko has a great chin and Vitali knocked down Mercer. We all see life in our own special ways, and that's what makes for entertaining discussions. PeteLeo.

[TKO11]

A dumb question: is someone questioning that Klit Sr. knocked Mercer down? He did.

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[A dumb question: is someone questioning that Klit Sr. knocked Mercer down? He did. ]]]]
=============================

It was Klitscho Jr that knocked down and stopped Mercer, not Sr. The first time I got a Vitali tape, I thought it was Wlad as they look so much alike in the ring and the fight lasted less than 2 rds. Vitali was about the same age as Wlad is now.

As a side note, Shavers often gets credit as the hardest puncher ever, but he was not the hardest "effective" puncher ever because a weak chin often kept him out of the fight and limited arsenal and speed usually kept him from connecting on better fighters.

Effective power has to go to Vitali or Marciano overall. However I think when Louis first retired that he would probably be considered the king. His comeback showed much less effective ring power and diluted his numbers. Fighters like Langford, Dempsey and Tyson had incredible peaks of power and Big George may get the nod for the longest effective power.

In the end, it's all one fella sitting in his shorts against another which is why they call it subjective speculation and is hardly worth scrappin' over.

[TKO11]

You're right Roberto. It was Junior, not Senior. My mistake - though who can tell them apart at the best of times (or apart from when Junior is falling down from the breeze of a haymaker that missed)?

[PeteLeo]

I've watched the bout a couple of times now, but I have to ask: did anyone see Lamon Brewster throw a punch close enough to Klitschko the Lesser's chin so that even the breeze impacted it? I can't see even a jab that lands with enough force to create the last knockdown. That remains one of the weirdest pieces of business I've even encountered in what is basically a weird business, boxing.
Maybe it isn't Wlad's chops that are letting him down -- maybe he's crumbling from vicious extra-sensory projections? PeteLeo.

[gregbeyer]

whoa...pee wee...boobala....extra sensory projections....have i crossed over here??:rolleyes

greg

[PeteLeo]

"The Universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it's stranger than we can imagine." Somebody Famous (I think I heard Carl Sagan attribute that to Einstein once. Or somebody.) PeteLeo.

[Roberto Aqui]

"Just remember, too much of something is the same as nothing."..............Johnny Cash

[HEGrant]

and that Foreman cannot hit....talk about strange ! :rollin

[PeteLeo]

But Wlad K. can take a monstrous blow to the mandibles. "Cursiouser and curiouser." PeteLeo.

[Hagler04]

I always hear people say that about Wlad-Brewster

3rd round-straight left by Brewster, Wlad seriously wobbled

5th round-Wlad NAILED FLUSH on the chin by a left hook

More then a breeze me thinks . . .

[PeteLeo]

I'll have to watch it again when the opportunity presents itself (I didn't keep a copy on VHS). It just all seemed so weird to me when Klitschko began hyperventilating in the corner even before he appeared to be tiring (or hurt). You could see the panic attack birthing in his eyes. I'm not making any excuses for the guy, his chin problems are there for all to see (though I concede the point to those who also remind us that he's always getting up from the knockdowns and trying to stay in the fight -- re: Sam Peter), but if there ever was a hinky, possibly "influenced" (by the opponent's camp) fight in modern big-time boxing, this one surely looks the part.
So, who should Wladdy try for next? Redemption or oblivion with Brewster, or repetition with Byrd? PeteLeo.

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[3rd round-straight left by Brewster, Wlad seriously wobbled

5th round-Wlad NAILED FLUSH on the chin by a left hook

More then a breeze me thinks . . . ]]]]
===================================

That's a lot more than a breeze you're producing, that's an EPA warning.

Wlad was never seriously wobbled in the fight, Brewster was, or did you get them mixed up? Wlad took 20X the punishment against Peter in a far tougher fight for him than Brewster dished out. Wlad was up 4X against Sanders who is far more powerful and landing cleaner on him than Brewster. C'mon, according to you, Wlad can't take zer0 punishment without being KOed.

Brewster was given a gift.

[mike21]

htm- just curios- did marciano have a lon back in proportion- im not at all sarcastis here - but curios- i just have not thought of it;please reply, of hand maybe he did but he certainly was nbot long armed but blessed with incredible power in the right- with the added attitibutes of a very srtong back, forearms, and more importantly- natual bodt to hand genius that separetes great punhers from all others- they get their power behin their shots in a natural manner, short long or inderrent, withou little concentration, effort or forcing the blow- its natually to them as opposed to a , not the best examples but examples nevertheless, a foreman and baer who had to really force the blow as opposed to the more giifted puncher who hits soooo hard because he does not need to and when needed will force his punches as well- but no need to. thanks. bye for now