Aaron Pryor's all time ranking...

[HEGrant]

Pryor was an exceptionally talented fighter...for starters, he should have fought at lightweight....the only reason he ended up at jr. welter was that he could not get a lightweight shot...

Aaron was very strong, very fast, amazingly conditioned genetically and had tremendous power...I think he hit at lightweight better than Duran...I would definately rate him as a top ten lightweight, a tremendous accomplishment given the depth of that division...

I think he was one of the few modern day lightweights that matched up very well with Pernell Whitaker...

Whay do you think ?

[DEEAGLE]

Pryor is I.M.O either 1 or 2 at Jr.Welter, at lgt I'm not so sure. But at 140lbs it's either him or Chavez at the top of the totem pole I.M.O

[Roberto Aqui]

Pryor was ranked 17th greatest lightweight ever by IBRO. Not sure why he was ranked there and not with welts. As far as not getting a shot at lightweight, well, moving up 4 lbs and dominating the division, it's not like he was cut out of opportunity or had to do anything extraordinary to receive it.

Pryor was a very unusual fighter with a short career and doubtless will always be underrated and underappreciated. I certainly enjoyed his fights and Pryor/Arguello 1 was better than Ali/Frazier 1 and 3 and remains the best "Legends" fight I've ever seen..

[Monte Cox]

The general feeling at the time was his was avoided by the lightweight title holders and that is why he fought Cervantes. He was undefeated and was screaming for a shot at the lightweight title and no one would give him a shot. Because he was avoided at 135 is why some memebers voted for him at that weight.

I think Pryor was the best 140 pound fighter. I think he beats Chavez by the volumes of punches he throws, much like he did Arguello. I also think he beats Whittaker. His swarming style, speed, power is the foil for a defensive boxer like Whittaker who lacked power.

-M.

[walsh b]

Yes and we all know that Aaron was heavily suspected of being on drugs, so his claim to greatness will always be very limited....Even still I have always maintained that he was a very beatable fighter and slightly overrated

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[Yes and we all know that Aaron was heavily suspected of being on drugs, so his claim to greatness will always be very limited....Even still I have always maintained that he was a very beatable fighter and slightly overrated ]]]]
=========================

The drugs Pryor was on were hardly beneficial to conditioning. He probably smoked a lot of reefer and was a coke addict near the end of his career and probably using much of his career.

He was hardly beatable. He won ALL his title fights and only lost one fight and that was a comeback after a detached retina and drug addiction rehabilitation. Pryor has one of the highest KO% in the history of boxing. There are precious few in his weight class who would even have decent chance to beat him.

[pendleton23]

Nobody will ever know what drug Pryor took on the night he fought Arguello.Nobody.Everybody can assume all they want but nobody knows.The fact is he took something other then water and that in itself is illegal.He broke the rules.I as well have always thought of his win against Arguello as great but tainted as well.

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[The fact is he took something other then water and that in itself is illegal.]]]]
============================

Ridiculous. Boxing has a long history of corners providing an assortment of stimulants to fighters between rounds. Under recently modified modern rules it may be illegal, but maybe not since what Pryor took was rumored to be an African battle potion concocted by a witchdoc of native African herbs.

Pryor said it was peppermint schnapps, and I'm not even sure that would be enough to DQ a fighter under modern rules.

[PeteLeo]

Interesting comment overheard in Pryor's corner after Arguello had had a nice previous round: "No, not that bottle; hand me the one I mixed."
Hmmm, what sort of water does one "mix," I wonder? PeteLeo.

[robertk]

The fly in the ointment is how come cocaine didn't spur all the other cokeheads we've had in the sport to use it for great results? It's always the opposite results w/ the cokeheads.

The "other bottle" comment may have been to utilize the one that contained the schnapps, like pryor said he used.

As for the guy as a fighter, I thought he was terrific. Anyone to beat him would have simply had to be in absolute terrific condition to match him and there really aren't a lot of those guys, in recent times anyway. The thing I really like about pryor was his footwork. He had the balance to fire combinations at 12:00 and take a half step in either direction and continue to fire away. Highly accurate guy as well. He'd pepper you all over the place and opponents must've thought the guy had 3 hands considering the frequency they got hit. But I really haven't seen anyone since aaron pryor that could fire away at 11 o'clock and change direction and his angle and be at 1 o'clock in a millisecond still firing away. It always seem to perplex his opponents and you definately didn't want to end up on the ropes against him. And he was a great finisher once a guy was ready to go.

Given that head straight up in the air style of his, guys were always going to catch him clean from time to time. But when they did, he sure showed a real mental toughness in there and championship heart and simply refused to let the momentum of the bout change. Given all the front runner types we've had in the sport in recent times, it's fun to go back and watch pryor climb off the deck and not let things change 1 iota >getting tagged or climbing off the mat.

One of my favorite bouts is pryor-dujuan johnson and it really showed what a competitor pryor was in the ring and how tough it was going to be to defeat him.

[HEGrant]

I don't know how anyone says he was very beatable....he crushed Carvantes, a still tough legend of his time and ultimately destroyed a still extremely tough Arguello. Two different styles, both legendary champs...he flattened some pretty decent challangers....he was very fast, he had tremendous power with either hand, he had exceptional stamina, great recoopeative powers and a champions heart....his only loss, to a welterweight (Young) was after he was past his best, after a retirement, on drugs and he still went eight rounds with a very tough puncher.

He was a all time great at lightweight...only a tall, fast boxer with good punch and an iron chin had the style to beat him....a younger, faster Arguello maybe .. or perhaps a Duran.

[DEEAGLE]

I agree totally, the guy never lost a fight, coming back 5 years later after being a crack head & losing a fight, that he was wishing everyone Merry Christmas in the summer, this was not the man we know as The HAWK. The only guys at 140lbs that had a chance against him were either Duran or Chavez & truthfully in either of those fights someone might get killed. I miss the Hawk.

[Chuck1052]

I think Roberto Duran was a much better
fighter than Aaron Pryor or Julio Cesar
Chavez. Along was his obvious natural
ability, punching power, durability, and
intensity, Duran also had very underrated
boxing skills and ring savvy.

I would also pick Pryor over Chavez.
Pryor had tremendous stamina, a
very high workrate, good punching
power, lots of heart and an
unorthodox style that gave
his opponents fits. Despite being
unorthodox, Pryor move very well on his
feet when the occasion demanded
it.

Julio Cesar Chavez was a smart, durable
fighter who could cut off the ring well,
applying alot of pressure while systematically
breaking down an opponent with punches
to the body and head. But Chavez lacked
quickness, didn't move well on his feet,
and was too easy to hit.

- Chuck Johnston

[JLP 6]

When I think of Pryor I think of how he totally dismatled Arguello and knocked him out. Arguello cried about the bottle incident and got KO'ed again for his trouble.

Pryor took the hardest right hand I've ever seen land besides Hearns-Duran and he slipped two punches immediately after he was hit. Came out the next round and handled his business.

Anybody that ever fought from 140-135 would have serious problems if they ever tried the Hawk.

[walsh b]

Chuck I agree fuly about Pryor being too much for JC. I love JC, but his slow starts and his lack of a defense would be suicide against a high volume fit Pryor......maybe over 20 rds JC could win, no way over 12......On the other hand a fighter with DLH''s speed and movement would give Aaron a lot of trouble. The key to beating Pryor was speed and movement.........

[DEEAGLE]

Julio Cesar Chavez was a smart, durable
fighter who could cut off the ring well,
applying alot of pressure while systematically
breaking down an opponent with punches
to the body and head. But Chavez lacked
quickness, didn't move well on his feet,
and was too easy to hit.

- Chuck Johnston

And PRYOR was not easy to hit? I guess I was watching the wrong Arron Pryor fights. Every Pryor fight I ever saw had Pryor getting tagged. BTW I would think a Pryor-Chavez fight might see someone landing in the morgue. Both were real warriors.

[pendleton23]

Like Pryor would admit he had some strong stimulant in that bottle?
Just because other boxers break the rules doesn't justify anything.Fact is he was on HBO and he got caught.You break the rules you pay the price.its as simple as that.

And if memory serves me correct Panama Lewis is the one who mixed the bottle?I would NEVER take his word on ANYTHING after what he did to Billy Collins.

[Steve McV]

It wasn't alcohol in the bottle. We can guess what it was, can't we, gents?

We saw what the drink did. Pryor recharged like the Energizer Bunny over the next couple rounds.

It was a stimulant of some kind, and thus all his fights, all his victories, and certainly his greatness, mean nothing. He wasn't a fighter. He was a doper.

I never include Pryor in any all-time tournament that I run for fun on my computer. His record, and his championship, should be stricken from the lists and that time period left with no champion, as far as I am concerned. Every fighter he ever beat should have their records amended to have the Pryor fights recorded as wins by disqualification.

The record of Pryor should be erased.

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[It was a stimulant of some kind, and thus all his fights, all his victories, and certainly his greatness, mean nothing. He wasn't a fighter. He was a doper.]]]]]
===========================

Ridiculous revisionsism. You must have a pretty short list of champions you run through your games since boxing has a much long history of stimulants in the corner. Smelling salts have been banned under modern rules. We can use revisionist logic and claim all those fighters who used smelling salts, which is probably 95% of all the fighters in history, well they were dopers not worthy of consideration or discussion, right? Yeah, right.

If anyone wanted instant energy, a delivery system via the stomach is a poor way to go. You would either inject the substance into a vein, or preferably an artery, or inhale it as a gas or fine particulate. If the fighter is a believer, you could've have applied peanut butter behind his ears and he'd have an energy boost.

Whatever drugs Pryor was on were not beneficial for his longevity and career. Same thing with Arguello. Could either of these guys have passed a modern post fight drug screen the night of their classic? I doubt it, but I sure ain't going to scrunch up my shorts over it.

[walsh b]

Roberto, the bottom line is that Pryor was more than likely on some substance and whether or not it did anything that night is I agree debatable, but to simply dismiss it as nothing is not right. If it only gave him the smallest burst of energy, well then that's the difference. And in Boxing where every little advantage counts, that's enough. He was rumored heavily to be a cheat that night and it will always hang over him, and rightly so.....

[Steve McV]

"Smelling salts have been banned under modern rules. We can use revisionist logic and claim all those fighters who used smelling salts, which is probably 95% of all the fighters in history, well they were dopers not worthy of consideration or discussion, right?"

Smelling salts were legal under the rules of the time, were they not?

As for other champions, how many of them have been caught using stimulants?

"Not that one, the one I mixed." Mixed with what? Kool-Aid?

Sending a substance into the body via the stomach is slower than injecting it, but it will get there.

Any fighter caught using performance enhancing drugs, or steroids, in any sport, should be banned from that sport and their record erased. No warnings, no second chances, zero tolerance, and this policy should be made known to the athletes from the time they start training at their schools. To do otherwise makes a mockery of the athletes who try to win at their sport within the rules.

And if this leaves us with fewer contestants, with less exciting performances, so be it. If Bobby Bonds used steroids, then his record should be stricken. Ben Johnson's infamous win over Carl Lewis in the 100 meters was one of the most exciting races I ever saw. The aftermath was a bitter dissappointment which destroyed the memory of a great moment in sports.

[Roberto Aqui]

[[[[Smelling salts were legal under the rules of the time, were they not?

As for other champions, how many of them have been caught using stimulants? ]]]]
===========================

There appears to be either a logic gene missing here or a simple lack of analysis. Smelling salts were only banned fairly recently on the historical timeline of boxing. Same with stimulants. Why would any pre-ban former champs "be caught" using stimulants when the use of stimulants was routine for most of the history of boxing?

I thought we had a revolution and established this country to escape that peculiar "retroactive" logic that the English used when they passed new laws and rounded up all the the poor folk who USED to be in violation of the NEW law. Sorta like the street you live on lowering the speed limit by 20 mph and then writing you out thousands of speeding tickets for all the years you violated the NEW speedlimit.

[Steve McV]

I would be very surprised to learn that stimulants were legal at the time of the Pryor-Arguello fight.

I think I'll post a question for the research boys, since I frankly don't know what the rules were at the time.

If Pryor was working inside the rules, then my objections become moral rather than legal.

[HEGrant]

Was it ever proven that there was an illgal stimulate taken by Pryor ?

[kikibalt]

Smelling salts were banned in California in the years that my sons were fighting , in the mid 70's and they are still banned today .
you guys have to know that whats banned in one state could be legal in an other state

Frank B.

[Steve McV]

It was never proven, at least as far as I recall; the powers that be did not want to investigate the allegation, despite the tape.

As for some things being legal in one state but not in another... oh my stars and garters, there's a headache for you!

[AEP2]

Aaron Pryor was a great fighter. However, I think the first Arguello-Pryor fight should have been ruled a no contest. Though I don't know for certain, I have a very strong suspicion that some stimulant was in that bottle. Pryor was started to fade around the 10th round or so and Arguello began to nail him. All the sudden he jumps off the stool like it was the first round and pummels Arguello. As someone stated, why should we believe Panama Lewis' version? Does this guy have any credibility left after the Collins fight? Absolutely not!

This subject also reminds me of a question I have about the use of stimulants in professional boxing. The use of stimulants was well-known in sports such as baseball and cycling. I figure that it must have also been used in professional boxing. Does anyone know of boxers using stimulants?

[HEGrant]

I'm amazed today that everyone is making such a huge deal about juice in baseball but I hear nothing about football where everyone must be on something...can anyone knowledgeable on this topic give me an insight why this is so ?????

[Roberto Aqui]

Football has a "drug testing program" that gives it a veneer of respectability. Of course it's so predictable that a child could figure it out. Same with basketball. MLB had such a strong player's union that they managed to dodge mandatory testing until Congress started to make some noise in some of the most worthless grandstanding I've seen in my life.

Lyle Alzado started using steroids in 1969, so that stuff has been around a long time and probably been in boxing that long too.