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Meh-weather can sit and spin his own crud all he likes.
This is not a great fight, but it is a good idea for Floyd to adjust. I don't see it happening, but the only way I will watch this fight with any interest is if Mayweather get's caught and stopped. Otherwise I see 12 rounds of a long night for Ortiz.
It's hard for me to see Victor Ortiz beating Floyd Mayweather because I seen what happened when Ortiz fought a decent fighter, he "No Mas" on one (Maidana) , then was up and down like some old whore's panties on another (Berto), those were the only two fighters of note that he has fought and he was in deep caca in both of those fights..Yes I agree that Floyd is getting old and hasn't fought in months, but imo against Ortiz that won't matter much...
I like Ortiz and he has grit and courage but I have to agree with Frank on this one, I think the writing is on the wall, hope it is a good fight though and it will provide a good look at what if anything this layoff has done to Floyd.
I agree with Frank and Ron. Ortiz is young, strong and fast, but he quit when Maidana pushed him to the limit and, as Frank noted, he was down a couple times vs Berto.
How will he react if Mayweather turns up the heat. He can be hit and hurt and I can see Floyd stopping him if he is motivated to do so.
Only chance I give Ortiz is if Mayweather is rusty from the layoff and, at 34, if his speed and reflexes have dulled.
I think Mayweather all day here. It's his timing, not speed, that gets the job done so often and this is not going to be any different. Ortiz better come out swinging because he doesn't stand any other chance.
Canelo and Morales on this card make it something to behold though!
Mayweather may be getting older but he has a very conservative style that is conducive to longevity. He has been in very few wars and to his credit is never out of shape. The kind of relatively crude aggression Ortiz brings will be his downfall. You need to pressure a fighter like mayweather. You can't stand infront of him and look for the opening.One needs to punch first. That being said it needs to be done with speed, angles, footwork, headmovement, timing etc. Skilled and calculated aggression. Ortiz is too raw.
Completely agree. I think Mayweathers handspeed is overrated. He has excellent handspeed but it is timing and placement that is the key.Originally Posted by The Welterweight Epitome
Mayweather is the logical pick.
The only question mark is how much rust, age, stress, and distractions have taken a toll on Mayweather.
Exactly and only Pac and perhaps Amir Khan have that I believe. Other than them two, Mayweather has a field day with the rest of the boxing bizz around him.
Ortiz's lack of a jab is the big problem for him, as others have mentioned.
His stamina, youth, strength and power should see him make this a decent scrap.
Still loses the fight I feel, but I think we will see Floyd showing clear signs of fading.
I've never doubted Floyd in any fight, and I won't in this one.
Ortiz lacks speed, lacks a jab, lacks movement, lacks footwork - I don't know why on earth people give him a chance against Floyd. It baffles me really.
A Floyd half as good as he was 5 years ago, is still way better then anything Ortiz offers.
This fight will be a massacre.
Just about spot on.
you dont beat a guy like jr. with a jab. you beat him with aggression, swarming, and pop with top condition. Manny would beat him and so will I think Vic Ortiz. I said that before and I still think it. Hes got the right style. I think his only problem will be getting caught early and then getting discouraged. If this kid goes in and last four or five it could get very interesting. Floyd has beaten no one who was a serious threat in the last couple of years. Actually I give him credit for taking Vic on.
Maybe Ortiz will get lucky enough to tag PBF once like Mosley did. If that were to happen, the result could be a bit uglier.
I only wish he were to get that lucky but PBF will see his punches from a mile away and I just don't see Ortiz having any real answer for PBF whatsoever other than some luck if PBF has a moment of carelessness.
If Maidana was able to bring the quit out of Ortiz for just refusing to go away in a fight Ortiz was doing well in, how in the world is he going to handle getting hit and not being able to land anything effective round after round?
I just can't see it...
PBF is going to have to show some major signs of age for Ortiz to have any shot at this at all.
The jab is the key top any fighter. It sets up everything. Oscar's jab caused Floyd a lot of issues.
Pressure behind a good solid jab is everything. No point in just wild and reckless pressure against Floyd.
Last edited by walshb; 09-09-2011 at 06:29 AM.
I actually have a different theory on what will beat Mayweather. A lot of people say pressure, but Floyd is like James Toney in the pocket, he will suck pressure up and use it against you. Everybody points to Castillo and for good reasons, but I think the 'blueprint' is something very different.
I think a stand-up, quick, rangy guy on the outside with straight, technical punching is what would really give Floyd fits. This is why I think Amir Khan, despite being a much lesser all round fighter than Floyd, has a very good chance at beating him.
I agree fully.
If you bring pressure, it must be real educated, strong, consistent and clever. Know when to step it up, ease off, angles etc.
Manny will do this well. Just barging forward and throwing shots will suit Floyd, like it suited Toney.
The Khan style is a style that will pose serious issues. Tall, fast, rangey, and a clever fighter.
You can apply pressure without going hell for leather, and without even leading, or pressing forward
I am picking Mayweather but I think that people are giving Ortiz a shot simply because we have no idea how much Mayweather has gone South in the last 16 months. Ortiz is hungry young man in good condition who is a pressure fighter. Mayweather hasnt fought one of those in quite a few years. Mayweather has been feeding on old has beens for a long time now.
Mayweather is obviously not the same fighter he was 5 years ago and its the unknown that makes this fight interesting. 16 months is a long while for a fighter to be out of the ring especially when in his mid 30's.
Once again, I pick Mayweather.
My exact thoughts!
CBZ in the know types:
I have watched all the 24/7's thus far and unless sleep deprivation due to doing a tour with a couple of my bands at the weekends has rendered me unconcious during the bit they cover it...but...
Has Ortiz had to undertake any "OSDT"? or any drug testing at all and if so - When has Mayweather?
Manny Pacquiao, Floyd Mayweather Jr. and boxing's age-old issue
By Lance Pugmire
September 12, 2011
Manny Pacquiao smiled at the question, as many boxers before him have, flexed his right biceps and grinned in delight.
"I still feel young and strong," Pacquiao proclaimed last week.
Birthday No. 33 comes for Pacquiao on Dec. 17.
Floyd Mayweather Jr., the man the boxing world wants Pacquiao to fight if Mayweather withstands the challenge of 24-year-old Victor Ortiz on Saturday in Las Vegas, will turn 35 on Feb. 24.
"One lesson we've learned in this sport is that day arrives for fighters when they wake up and find out something they believed was written in stone as unchanging has changed," HBO boxing analyst Larry Merchant said.
Time stops for no man, and the calendar's toll can be severe for a boxer.
"My father — my greatest educator — told me since I was a little boy that at 28 you're still a young man, but you're an old fighter," said Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini, the former world lightweight champion. "Years later, I heard a quote by Napoleon: 'After 30 years, a man's spirit is not made for war.' "
Mancini, now 50, fought twice after turning 28 and lost both times.
"Your body starts to shut down, you start settling down," Mancini said. "We change mentally, emotionally, physically. The piss-and-vinegar attitude goes away. The reflexes aren't the same. In training camp, you do seven reps instead of 10, and think, 'Don't worry about it.' But you're not pushing yourself the same, and you pay for it."
Oscar De La Hoya experienced that deterioration three years ago against Pacquiao. De La Hoya couldn't move fast enough to keep up with Pacquiao's attacks and he couldn't hit the bolting Filipino. By the ninth round, De La Hoya, then 35, quit on his stool and ended his proud career.
Now retired, De La Hoya admits he'd begun slipping years earlier and was "past his prime" when he lost to Mayweather by split decision in 2007.
"It's a whole new ballgame, and Floyd's going to find that out now that he's 34," De La Hoya said. "Things start happening at 34. Your muscle mass is not the same. You make weight easier, but that's not a good thing because you have less muscle.
"I thought of that when I saw Floyd's number at his 30-day weigh-in: 149 [for the Ortiz bout, while normally a fighter would be up around 155 at that time]. It's not a good sign for Floyd. Everything is against him."
Longtime boxing publicist Bill Caplan was an eyewitness to the toll of age on Sugar Ray Robinson. He watched Robinson, at 39, struggle in two bouts against Gene Fullmer, and then in training camp before Robinson's sad loss to part-time bartender Ferd Hernandez in 1965 in Las Vegas.
"They don't lose their power, they lose their timing," said Caplan, who has since worked with De La Hoya, George Foreman and now Ortiz. "If they see an opening, they can't pull the trigger.
"You also can't spar as many rounds. The body just can't take it. So when you get in the ring in that condition, you look terrible."
There are exceptions.
Former world heavyweight champion Foreman returned from a 10-year hiatus at age 38, then recaptured the belt at 45. He preached that "age doesn't matter . . . you lose energy, but gain wisdom."
Light-heavyweight champion Bernard Hopkins, 46, will defend his belt Oct. 15 at Staples Center. Hopkins said his secret was a vow in his 20s to remain true to a strict diet and exercise regimen.
Merchant concludes: "Yes, there are freaks. Hopkins. But that's not normal. Younger, quicker guys trying to prove something to the world usually beat the older guy."
Mancini said his final fight, at 31, revealed the inner conflict of a maturing man and a youthful ego. He signed to fight former world lightweight champion Greg Haugen.
"It's not all about money. It's wanting to know — and believing — that you can still get up for a world-class event," Mancini recalled.
In January 1992, Mancini started training camp without his family and infant son. Each afternoon he'd listen to Eric Clapton's "Tears in Heaven."
"I'd think of being away from my wife and son and bawl like a baby," Mancini said. "I was destroyed before I ever got in the ring. I told my assistant trainer 10 minutes before the fight in the dressing room, 'I got no business being here.' "
Mancini suffered a final defeat by technical knockout in the seventh round.
Veteran matchmaker Bruce Trampler has watched thousands of fights and knows the telltale signs of an aging boxer.
"If a guy can't defend a jab, that suggests his decline has begun," Trampler said. "The younger, fresher fighter doesn't wait for the message of an opening to punch to reach his brain. He just does it. You can actually see the older fighter waiting on the message before he punches."
"And the worse a fighter declines, the more he's at risk. We can start and finish that story with Muhammad Ali."
Trampler reminds that few ever foresaw that the brilliant Cassius Clay, who beautifully slipped punches by turning his head at the last instant, would transform into the sad Ali at the end of his career.
Trampler recalls his mentor, former Madison Square Garden matchmaker Teddy Brenner, saying in 1978 that he was going to bet some money on young Olympian Leon Spinks to upset Ali after watching the champ get hit hard in his prior fight against Earnie Shavers.
"You have no idea how bad Spinks is," Trampler told Brenner.
"You have no idea how bad Ali is," Brenner corrected before Spinks shocked the world.
Years later, Trampler was in his Las Vegas office when Sugar Ray Leonard was asking about a comeback fight at age 40. Trampler offered a bout against a journeyman. Leonard declined, instead wanting to fight a bigger name, Hector "Macho" Camacho.
"He was shot," Trampler recalled. "I'm not saying that loss is Ray's legacy, but it's on his record that he got stopped by Hector Camacho, who couldn't stop anybody."
For the record, Trampler says he sees no slippage in Pacquiao, his company's fighter, and Merchant said the only hiccup from Mayweather was getting hit hard in the second round by Shane Mosley in an otherwise dominant effort last year.
If Mayweather and Pacquiao win their upcoming fights — Pacquiao has a Nov. 12 date against older veteran Juan Manuel Marquez — it by no means ruins the anticipation of a super-fight.
One of the best bouts of all time was "The Thrilla in Manila" in 1975 when Ali was 33 and Joe Frazier was 31.
"Ali didn't have the legs to elude Frazier, so he got hit and had to fight," Merchant said. "What a fight it was."
Man versus age usually is.
lance.pugmire@latimes.com
So true!
Victor Ortiz keeps camp loose before fighting Floyd Mayweather Jr.
In contrast to his opponent, WBC champion Ortiz likes to interrupt the grind of training with 'fun days' to give his team a break from tension. It fits the persona of a boxer who says, 'I love life.'
Victor Ortiz
By Lance Pugmire
September 13, 2011, 4:46 p.m.
As much as Victor Ortiz has in common with Floyd Mayweather Jr. — neither is talking to his father, both left veteran promoter Bob Arum for greater riches, and they're fighting each other Saturday — there's one dominant difference.
Mayweather's gym maintains a consistently tense mood, saying that the fighter is there training hard to avoid the damage that occurs in the blood sport. Ortiz routinely halts everything for a "fun day."
Recently, Ortiz took everyone on a chartered deep-sea fishing boat off the Channel Islands. He's also invited the group to surf, enter a Camp Pendleton triathlon race with him, paddleboard, get massages in Ojai and sky dive.
"I'm not going to live forever. So you better have fun while you're here," Ortiz said from his home on Ventura Harbor.
That's the unmistakable vibe exuding from Ortiz, the 24-year-old World Boxing Council welterweight champion. He will make his first title defense in Las Vegas in a bout dominated by the story line of his celebrated opponent, the unbeaten Mayweather, who returns to the ring after 16 months.
"I think everyone is tired of him," Ortiz said of his foe. "I'm here to win this."
Ortiz is an aggressive puncher, with a 29-2-2 record and 22 knockouts, but oddsmakers say he's a 7-to-1 underdog.
Those close to Ortiz say that if victory is at hand, it will be because of the drive he's shown by overcoming numerous obstacles to win a world title.
"He takes his energy as a fighter into everything he does, and our kids need to hear that story," said Hector Cortez, chief diversity officer of Big Brothers/Big Sisters, a youth mentoring organization based in Philadelphia. Ortiz, a spokesman for the organization, recently hosted some youths from a gang-intervention program at his Ventura gym.
"To respond to the environment he came from is a testament to his resolve," Cortez said. "Everything around you comes from something deep within you, and tapping into that can be transformative."
Ortiz grew up in Garden City, Kan., and he and his siblings endured a difficult childhood as their parents abandoned them.
Mayweather, similarly scarred by unstable parenting, remains saddled with a reputation for being moody and difficult. He's facing felony charges stemming from allegations that he struck the mother of his three children, and he recently split with his father in an expletive-filled exchange on HBO's "24/7" reality series.
Ortiz has taken another tack. He simply doesn't speak to the father who left him.
Last winter, Ortiz said, he faced his own domestic crisis — he came home early one day and found his girlfriend of four years with another man, a U.S. serviceman. He recalled telling the soldier, "I should hit you, but I won't, because all the stories will say, 'Boxer beats up military hero.'" Ortiz ended the relationship.
In April, Ortiz's boxing career reached a pinnacle. He won the WBC belt from then-unbeaten Andre Berto in a stirring unanimous decision, a bout in which both men were knocked down twice, with Mayweather watching ringside.
"I could have easily headed in other directions throughout my life," Ortiz said. "Luckily, I was surrounded by a lot of positive people. I knew right from wrong. And it meant something to me to not be that person who in people's eyes was all messed up."
Ortiz credits his youth boxing mentor, the late Ignacio "Bucky" Avila. The trainer kept repeating the phrase "You can do it, Junior" so often that Ortiz said he heard the words echo during the Berto fight.
Ortiz values support from those close to him. It was a key reason why he dumped his former trainer Robert Garcia. The trainer was "mean" and not supportive, Ortiz said.
Rosas recalled that during the weigh-in for a 2006 fight in San Antonio against a then-unbeaten opponent named Nestor Rosas, he ended a verbal exchange by betting Rosas $100 that he'd win the fight. Instead of drawing admiration from Garcia for being confident, the trainer scolded Ortiz and warned him he faced a difficult fight.
"[Garcia was] always bringing me down," Ortiz said.
Ortiz knocked out Rosas in the fifth round.
Fight fans, though, haven't always been on Ortiz's side. In June 2009 Ortiz lost to Marcos Maidana on a sixth-round technical knockout at Staples Center when it appeared Ortiz could have continued. Fans shouted at Ortiz: "You're not a true Mexican!"
Ortiz believes that if he fought Maidana 10 times he'd win nine of the bouts. "Sorry for the mistake of being human" and losing one, Ortiz said.
Rolando Arellano, Ortiz's manager, added, "There's a reason the front windshield of a car is bigger than the rear mirror: You should look forward most of the time, and only occasionally check behind you."
On Ortiz's dinner table is the volume "The Book of Positive Quotations." His manager frequently reads passages from it to Ortiz. They also watch Anthony Robbins' motivational videos together.
"It's not what people think of you, it's what you believe about yourself," Arellano said, fixing his eyes on his fighter. "There are excuses to fail and excuses to succeed. . . . It's the story between the ears that determines your life."
Ortiz nods, relishing his own path.
"You've got to get over things," Ortiz said. "Otherwise, you'd sit there and want to kill yourself. I love life."
lance.pugmire@latimes.com
I see that Mayweather Jr has his pet referee Joe Cortez for this fight, looks like Ortiz will not be allowed to fight on the inside this Saturday.
As if the cards needed to be stacked for PBF to win. Geez....
I am not sure about anyone else, but if this fight was showing on free TV Saturday afternoon, I still might not watch it. This fight will never be better than Gatti - Ward, Corrales-Castillio and I didn't have to pay a dime other than regular cable.
Now, watch. I said that, won't watch it, and it will be Durelle-Moore.
Last edited by JLP 6; 09-14-2011 at 04:56 PM.
Floyd has far roo much left and will bust up Ortiz and stop him ... a mismatch.
lol, that's what I was thinking. Although his elbows are dirty!
I just went back and watched mayweather vs hatton. I knew Mayweather looked uncomfortable, but upon rewatching it he looked far more uncomfortable than i remembered. Hatton wasn't a solid welter and didn't have the durability required to impose that gameplan but he gave a decent account of himself whilst it lasted. Hatton didn't make the mistake the likes of mosely and judah did. He didn't linger at the end of mayweathers range getting tentative and looking for an opening. He come all the way forward smothering, ripping to the body and maintaining good intensity. Mayweather's relatively conservative output and pot-shotting style left him vunerable to Hattons tactics.
I definately favour Mayweather. That being said i think the bigger and stronger Ortiz can make this reasonably competitive if he is consistently aggressive and letting his hands go even in the face of mayweathers inevitable counter-punching success. The moment he hesistates to come forward and surrenders the momentum floyd will light him up in a big way.
Last edited by JaKob; 09-15-2011 at 08:32 AM.
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