Mayweather-Ortiz, Sept 17th

[Kid Dynamite]

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3) Whether Floyd is the #1 P4P fighter of all time, as he claims he is, or around #100, as I think, he in no way ever tries to prove his claim against anybody worth a damn.

I'm sorry, but the bottom line is that Floyd nearly always fights guys whom he is favored to beat by 3 to 1 and more. He simply is almost never matched with anybody who's supposed to even have a chance, due to boxing's dearth of talent. De la Hoya is the one evenly-match opponent who comes to mind, but he sure was old. Also perhaps Castillo and a couple of others in the lower weights at which Floyd has fought. But I simply can't credit him with the all-important reputation-enhancing upset of a favored fighter or the defeat of someone in a pick'em matchup. Something I'd like to see two examples of each before his record would impress me.

His beating up everybody he's heavily favored to beat doesn't make him "great," it makes him Boom Boom Mancini. You can't say it makes him anywhere comparable to the 1980s Tyson because Tyson not only beat all of his severely-mismatched opponents (few expected to even give him a good tussle), but he ran over everybody with flair, indeed, with one awesome early KO after another. Mayweather doesn't do that; he merely wins, generally.

Can't even say, "But Floyd talks a good game." No. Ali talked a good game, everybody laughed and in fact busted their guts laughing at his schtick and often awed by its originality. Mayweather just sounds like an uneducated thug. Ali could spar verbally with the very sharp Howard Cosell on an even level; Floyd could not do so with the less-quick-minded Larry Merchant. Ali met with world leaders numerous times and had an inquisitive mind; Floyd couldn't care less about that, he'd rather hear what 50-Cent has to say and show off his cars. Overall, Floyd's outside-the-ring exploits typically involve thuggish, degrading behavior and airing of lowlife family laundry. This generation's "That's Entertainment".

Ali's a tough comparison, true; but remember that Floyd's the one claiming that he himself is the greatest.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
The above is my biggest issue with Floyd. He simply hasnt fought the best around since he was at the lower weights back in 03 and even then he was running from Mosley.. A friend of mine asked me how Mayweather would go down in history if he were to retire undefeated and I responded that he will be remembered as a fighter who NEVER fought the best to prove he was as good as his record.

[diggity]

2) Ortiz clearly attempted to headbutt Floyd MUCH EARLIER in round 4 as well. About 22 seconds into the round (with around 2:38 remaining on HBO's clock), Ortiz tried to headbutt Floyd and ref Cortez warned him for it.

Yup. I noticed the same thing last night on a few different occasions - definite "strategic" head placement in close quarters.
Seemed like he made a conscious decision to be a little dirty in there to help get PBF off his game.
Upon this watch I also a had a little more appreciation for what Ortiz was doing in there offensively.
It was still early in the fight so it's hard to say where it all would have gone but even though he was getting picked apart, he was still trying to get his fight on in there.
I still think the result would have been the same but nonetheless, the kid was trying harder than the last few fighters.

At boxing's "highest level" we have inept & lazy reffing, amateurish & classless behavior topped with some grade A shitty sportsmanship.
This sport is going to hell most days.
What a shame and a waste of an event.

Meanwhile we plead for spent guys who don't owe a thing to boxing like Morales to hang em up & he was the only saving grace of the night.
His last 2 fights have shown more about what boxing is about than each of Ortiz's and PBF's previous 10 collectively.

[Ron Lipton]

Kid Dynamite said it all, great post.

[Ron Lipton]

Great post by Diggity too.

[diggity]

PS, Ice Man Scully cracked me up with his astute take on profiling, harassing corner men who "Act" like they are fighting too. LOL. What is with Floyd's cornerman, is it Ellerbee? Shades, hard stare downs, the faux intimidation schtick. Puuuuuuhleeease, it is so lame and a la Crocodile it has to be put to sleep. I saw Chris Eubank's guys doing that in the ring against Collins in the first fight, Hey boxers, get rid of these guys, they only cause trouble and are profiling on TV. If they are so fucking tough, put them in the ring.

Angelo Dundee was always nice and respectful no matter what to the other boxer.. That is the way to go is it not? Instead of the glaring staredowns and bullshit profiling for the camera. Hey ASSHOLES, you are NOT FIGHTING, you are in the lackey entourage.

This kind of "tough guy by proximity" shit always cracks me up. I'd love to have a few minutes alone with any of those jerk offs and I haven't boxed a day in my life.

Lampley on a separate note was blatantly giving points for Ortiz to the point it was insulting.
I know the network pays him but my god, don't tell me when a beautiful cross lands by Ortiz when in actuality he got smashed by a counter right.
Just STFU!

I really haven't commented much on the Cortez factor because of the joke he is.
I already knew he would break up the fighters when they shouldn't & expected that he would blow a call or 10, blah blah fucking blah.
I knew poor Ron would be emptying his gut & bowels here over the shit performance he was going to do the moment he was announced.
It's a joke to the point of not deserving comment.

Good comments all around guys.
This is one of those fights where you have to soak it all in after a few days & replays, then reload.

If PBF truly cared about making a statement in history or the P4P stufff, he would be calling out guys like Williams a few years ago or even Martinez now, figure out a way to fight Pac, not feeding us this crap he is trying to sell us because the kid was young.
How stupid are we supposed to be?
You have to risk to get the reward, not fight Ortiz & frigging a years past expiration Mosley (who would have given him hell at prime).
Ortiz couldn't have been happier that the fight ended when it did.
It's like it's all a big laughable joke to him.
What a disgrace.
For a guy from the "streets" (and now I have my serious doubts about how hard his life really was, probably Hollywood Blvd...) I expected a LOT more.
It's like the guy had foster parents in fucking Beverly Hills...

[mrbig1]

I'm more pissed at Ortiz than PBF. At least with Floyd what you see it what you get. Ortiz showed zero heart in this fight. Maybe I'm being too hard on the guy. I've been a boxer in the Army and a fan since 1964. I've saw many of fighter give there heart and soul in the ring. Micky Ward may not have been a great fighter but he has earn my respected. Ali,Frazier,Marciano, just to name a few who would give everything they had in the ring. Win or lose it didn't matter to me and long as that fought there heart out. Ortiz IMO was looking for a way out. As Steve Miller said take the money and run.

[PD99]

Hi Michael,

Actually, I think I did pretty much did rebut your essential points.

Also, I'm pretty sure that I read you correctly in that, however you wish to label Mayweather's final two punches, you did state that you felt that Floyd's actions therein were not pre-meditated, merely a case of Floyd simply getting on with the fight without further ado. However, after that, you stated that Floyd's action therein were certainly relatiliatory (=premeditated) and that you believed that Floyd would not have punched Ortiz as he did had Floyd not been fouled in the prior instance. No matter.

You're right, I confused my hypothetical Fighters. I did pick up on that myself as my edit (which preceded your post) indicates. Anyhow, that scenario was without prior foul -and you originally addressed that scenario exactly as such - still finding reason to call out Fighter B for his stupidity. I totally disagree.

As to returning in kind. I read whatever examples you did offer to be exactly in kind - which is why I asked for an EXACT example of what Mayweather himself actually did.

I understand that fouls might not be perfectly equal and opposite but perhaps at least they may reside approximately in the same foul zone. If we're to commute this into "real life" fouls and retaliation, a guy might butt me in the street w/out my retaliating. Next time I see him, I sneak up behind him with a baseball bat and take him out with one clean swing, fracturing his skull. He started it, I finished it. Or, my neighbour might pinch my morning paper. Next morning, without detection, I smash the bejesus out of his car windscreen. He started it, I finished it. Quite obviously, my retaliatory response in both instances was excessive and far more malicous than the foul put upon me in the first instance. These examples are not meant to be direct comparisons to the illegal head butt vs legal cheap shot in question - they simply exemplify that retaliation isn't necessarily so cut and dried and easily justified as a simple tit for tat.

However, while I don't think it is perfectly analogous to sport in general, the sport of boxing and this particular instance - I most certainly do hear your "real llife" point -eg. the home invader, as soon as he illegally crosses that threshold, has to and would understand that the home owner has every right to assume the absolute worst of him. As such, imo, the instant the home invader "invades", he waives all rights to any consideration of his potentially committing anything less than the of worst offences. As such, the home owner has EVERY right to take whatever action is necessary to ensure the protection of both his family (first and foremost of course) and his assets. No probs with that.

I am completely objective on this. Not for the purpose of big noting myself but I"m pretty sure I was the first to note that Cortez did actually say "Let's go", thus negating any question of Floyd having technically fouled Ortiz. Thereafter, the question focused on "sportsmanship" - obviously, a very gray area and open to highly subjective interpretation. And yeah, Ortiz was definitely using the head prior to rd 4, no question. Anyway, I won't dissect any further (but if there's a place for it, this is ther perfect forum). But yeah, enough is enough.

Moving to a potential Mayweather v Pac fight. Yes, I am a PacMan Man. However, while Mosley was the least perfect dance partner, I thought I may have detected some slip in Manny. Many feel that just ONE fight is insufficient evidence to make that call. That makes sense but I feel that up to the Mosley fight, Manny was operating on all 12 cylinders anyway, truly maxing himself out his potential with only way to go otherwise - down. He couldn't possibly maintain that standard forever and I think perhaps we may have seen the first hint of a downturn in the Mosley fight. As to Mayweather, I think he's that little bit more "gettable" but between the two, he may be that much closer to his best than Manny will be if and when they do fight. It doesn't mean that I would necessarily discount a Pac victory but I think that it's obvious that Mayweather would have deliberately "timed" himself for this match if it ever does come off.

Merchant? No question, the guy can be deliberately incitive but the post I/V is part of the whole PPV package. If so smooth and cool as he likes to suggest, Mayweather could've played it up in "Ali" fashion but of course, Floyd is no Ali in all respects. See Ali vs his own "protagonists" Cosell, D'Amato etc. - absolute GOLD.

[JLP 6]

A Money Shot: Weekend Review and Ratings Update

By Cliff Rold

In July 1927, trying to recapture his mojo after losing the Heavyweight title to Gene Tunney, the great Jack Dempsey was getting outboxed by the younger Jack Sharkey. Sharkey would one day go on to win the crown. He had some learning to do yet. Working inside in the seventh, Dempsey went below the belt, threw his left shoulder into the face of Sharkey, and then hit him another couple stiff rights to the jock. Holding the left arm of Sharkey as Sharkey grimaced and turned his head to complain of the foul blows, Dempsey finished his man with a thunderous left hook.

It’s one of the many fondly recalled, chuckled about, almost Bunyan-esque elements of the Dempsey legend.

On Saturday night in Las Vegas, lineal World Welterweight Champion Floyd Mayweather was on the receiving end of one of the more blatant, nasty fouls in recent memory. Having what, to then, was his best moment and round of the fight, Victor Ortiz was doing good work along the ropes. He landed a couple rights.

Then, inexplicably, Ortiz all but leapt, forehead first, into the face of Mayweather for an intentional butt. It was a jaw dropping moment of stupidity. Mayweather didn’t bitch, complain, or go nuts.

Mayweather kept composed.

Had Ortiz gone to the neutral corner, shrugged, and snarled, it might have made sense. Instead, he came apart, hugging, kissing, touching gloves again, losing a point, and then going to hug again. Ten seconds later, he was done.

Was it a sucker punch? Absolutely. Was that a bad thing?

Absolutely not.

Dempsey would have been proud.

Let’s go to the report card.

This is a was well worded response. Just the square facts.

[walshb]

I'm more pissed at Ortiz than PBF. At least with Floyd what you see it what you get. Ortiz showed zero heart in this fight. Maybe I'm being too hard on the guy. I've been a boxer in the Army and a fan since 1964. I've saw many of fighter give there heart and soul in the ring. Micky Ward may not have been a great fighter but he has earn my respected. Ali,Frazier,Marciano, just to name a few who would give everything they had in the ring. Win or lose it didn't matter to me and long as that fought there heart out. Ortiz IMO was looking for a way out. As Steve Miller said take the money and run.

A way out of what? It is not like he was being well beaten. It was three rds in, he was starting to do well.
Bizarre that he chose to commit that foul. It was right aftre an attack that looked promising.
Odd character is Ortiz!

[Kid Dynamite]

Embarrass yourself in ring and get KO'd in a ridiculous manner and you too can one day rap a verse on a terrible song with Ray J (Mayweather's lackey)

http://www.tmz.com/2011/09/26/victor...ey-baddest-gir

Ortiz is a clown.

[mrbig1]

A way out of what? It is not like he was being well beaten. It was three rds in, he was starting to do well.
Bizarre that he chose to commit that foul. It was right aftre an attack that looked promising.
Odd character is Ortiz!

What I'm saying i don't think the two shots was hard enough to KO Ortiz. He was either going to foul his way out or just lay on the canvas. He did both.

[JaKob]

A way out of what? It is not like he was being well beaten. It was three rds in, he was starting to do well.
Bizarre that he chose to commit that foul. It was right aftre an attack that looked promising.
Odd character is Ortiz!

He showed the implementation of a reasonably effective gameplan in short spurts. However he was more often than not tentative, failing to punch first, waiting on mayweather, and at times backpeddling. He was tentative and unwilling to press the action far too often. The moment he surrendered the momentum to mayweather and took the backfoot i thought he was done. It was a sign of what the future rounds would hold. Nothing less than consistent pressure, aggression, and intestinal fortitude in the face of Mayweathers counter punching prowess was required to make this fight competitive. Personally i just didn't see that happening.

[Ron Lipton]

Well put JaKob, astute observations. The zone guys see it all like an Avatar.

[jlupi]

What I'm saying i don't think the two shots was hard enough to KO Ortiz. >>>>>

I disagree esp considering that ortiz was looking at cortez on the 2nd shot.

I do see what Jakob was saying Ortiz needed in a way to do what holy did to tyson. always move forward and make MW yield ground.

[GorDoom]

Man, your guys can take a crap fight, with crap results & just nitpik what happened & just flog it to ribbons. It's REAL simple: Ortiz was frustrated & wanted out & that's why he flagrantly fouled Floyd. Joe Cortez was out-to-lunch just like he has been for at least a decade & yes, what Floyd did wasn't "sportsmanlike" but t was withing the rules. This is BOXING, if you aint cheatin' you ain't tryin' & PROTECT YOURSELF AT ALL TIMES! is the cardinal rule.

Ortiz didn't.

Case closed. What the hell is there else to talk about?

I have a question: If the situation was reversed & it was Floyd that got KO'd like that, somehow I don't think anybody would be kvetching.

GorDoom

[Dan Gunter]

I have a question: If the situation was reversed & it was Floyd that got KO'd like that, somehow I don't think anybody would be kvetching.

GorDoom

Indeed.

[jlupi]

What the hell is there else to talk about?>>>>

nothing. hence this ongoing thread

[jlupi]

on a totally diff note about the fight I hated the filming. Something about the camera work made it look like I was watching a cgi enhanced movie.

[Kid Dynamite]

De La Hoya is actually demanding a rematch as if anyone really cares to watch this again.

http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/osca...everyone-96815

[JaKob]

De La Hoya is actually demanding a rematch as if anyone really cares to watch this again.

http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/osca...everyone-96815

I really hope this doesn't take place. Ortiz isn't there mentally.

[PD99]

Yeah, something to add.

That Dempsey-Sharkey is the poster bout for PROTECT YOURSELF AT ALL TIMES is laughable.

Sharkey was hit squarely in the nuts. His dropping his hands was more an involuntarily reaction to the immediate pain than anything else. Hell, even after the follow up left hook that put him on the deck, Sharkey was not at all "out". He was writhing on the deck still clutching at the family jewels as a result of the all prevailing low blow.

You beat the body for a number of rds to bring the hands down. You hit the nut sack once with the money shot and the hands come down instantly.

[Ron Lipton]

I would not pay 3 cents to see a rematch. Ortiz blew it, and he was the welterweight champion of the world, who turned his head to cry to the ref after catching that hook, instead of going after him like Dempsey or Tyson would have, let alone Basilio or Hearns.

[mrbig1]

Now we see the power of PBF. This thread is already 13 pages long. At least he has people talking about boxing again. I love it.

[Kid Dynamite]

Now we see the power of PBF. This thread is already 13 pages long. At least he has people talking about boxing again. I love it.

Not the power of Mayweather but the lack of anything else going on.

[Michael Frank]

on a totally diff note about the fight I hated the filming. Something about the camera work made it look like I was watching a cgi enhanced movie.

Great point, jlupi. I noticed it immediately and was quite unhappy at seeing it.

The use of film from at least one camera, instead of video, or whatever the hell else HBO did, makes it look like an old fight at times instead of of one that just happened last week. And, doubtless the self-anointed "geniuses" at HBO think this is a great idea, for what reason I would like them to please tell us.

[JLP 6]

Something I have been thinking about.

If Payton Manning sees that the defense has 12 men on the field (illegal), wouldn't he run a play that might result in a touchdown, knowing that no matter what happened he is going to either get a penalty on the other team, or a touchdown, in which he can decline the penalty.

I think that most of us would call this smart, fair, etc.

I am failing to see how different Mayweathers "foul" is a problem.

[walshb]

JL, that is what is the problem in the world today. Sense of fair play and honesty
and integrity doesn't get you as far as the opposite. Like it says, "no good deed goes unpunished."

You know, just because some things are technically legal, doesn't mean
you should do do do. Morality and fair play and other traits are also important.

Taking advantage of someone else's misfortune/naievity isn't a trait that I'd be proud of.

[GorDoom]

You guys are unbelievable! Nattering on & on & on about absolutely nothing... & Walsh your naive. In sports you do whatever you can get away with. Sportsmanship is for a fucking Disney movie. This is real life & real life has hard endings. Remember, winners write history, not the losers...

GorDoom

[walshb]

You guys are unbelievable! Nattering on & on & on about absolutely nothing... & Walsh your naive. In sports you do whatever you can get away with. Sportsmanship is for a fucking Disney movie. This is real life & real life has hard endings. Remember, winners write history, not the losers...

GorDoom

Well, not everyone is like you Gor, who sees nothing wrong with "WINNING AT ALL COSTS."

I am not naive. I know bloody well that there are cheats and scams and gamesmanship all over the place. I thought
my post would have shown this.

My point is that there are still folks out here who have class, style, integrity, fairness and honesty.

Just not enough of them

And, there have been many many GREAT athletes across all sports who never resorted to cheating
and foul play, and gamesmanship (or "doing whatever they can to win," as you say). Pity they're lost on you.

Regarding winning at all costs: Take Maradona for example. As much as he'll be remembered for his skill, the ONE defining memory for many
is him cheating his way to victory in the world cup. A cheat.

[JLP 6]

Walsh, I was going to respond, but after seeing Goor's post, I will leave it be. Thanks for the response.