Mayweather-Ortiz, Sept 17th

[GorDoom]

In the real world, liker it or not, cheaters win A LOT. Whether it be sports business or politics. Not saying its right but its reality & all this teeth gnashing over this bullshit fight accomplishes what? It is what iit is, Floyd saw an opportunity & he took it. He got fouled badly, what do you want him to do? Start quoting The Marquis Of Queensbury? & like I said earlier if the situation was completely reversed & Floyd got caught with that shot you would all be reveling in that he got his just do..

I smell more than just a little stink of hypocrisy...

GorDoom

[walshb]

Gor, I don't blame Floyd at all. I probably would have done the same under THOSE
circumstances. It was Ortiz who started it.

I know well that cheaters and liars do succeed. But, they also fail. Conversely, honesty and integrity
sees success and failure. I live in Ireland, where the bigger the rogue, the more they get on.

I just don't think that this attitude that you have is the "be all and end all."

I strive for class, style and justice. I don't commend or celebrate or revel in a person or a
group or a team that succeeds through cheating or corruption, or cheap tactics. It does
not impress me, nor does it at all inspire me. It's quite sad really. Sadder is that this is
seen as the way to go now. Standards, manners and decency are dying out, as is shame.

[JLP 6]

Gor, I don't blame Floyd at all. I probably would have done the same under THOSE
circumstances. It was Ortiz who started it.

I know well that cheaters and liars do succeed. But, they also fail. Conversely, honesty and integrity
sees success and failure. I live in Ireland, where the bigger the rogue, the more they get on.

I just don't think that this attitude that you have is the "be all and end all."

I strive for class, style and justice. I don't commend or celebrate or revel in a person or a
group or a team that succeeds through cheating or corruption, or cheap tactics. It does
not impress me, nor does it at all inspire me. It's quite sad really. Sadder is that this is
seen as the way to go now. Standards, manners and decency are dying out, as is shame.

Nicely put man.

[walshb]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2009/0...57R46Z20090828

This incident occurred a couple of years ago. I mean, is this another case of, "If you are not cheating you
are not trying."

How low can a team go?

The incident almost crushed my teams chances of a European Cup triumph.

If my team resorted to that kinda' behaviour I wouldn't at all be
celebrating. I would be flat out disgusted.

[GorDoom]

Do you really expect life to be fair? Well it just isn't. Just ask John F. Kennedy who two weeks before his head was blown off said: "Life is not fair". Just ask the millions who are now unemployed. Ideals are great but they just don't seem to be relevant anymore. Look at politics, looks at Corporate business, why do you expect Sports to be any different?

Sometimes the right outcome evolves but just as many times it doesn't. That's life. Hell your Irish. What the Brits have done to your country is that fair? Hey man, life's a bitch & then you die... & bottom line what Floyd did pushed the envelope but it WAS within the rules & e was reacting over an egregious foul.

Btw: I'm no Floyd fan but the piling on is ridiculous.

GorDoom

[walshb]

Do you really expect life to be fair? Well it just isn't. Just ask John F. Kennedy who two weeks before his head was blown off said: "Life is not fair". Just ask the millions who are now unemployed. Ideals are great but they just don't seem to be relevant anymore. Look at politics, looks at Corporate business, why do you expect Sports to be any different?

Sometimes the right outcome evolves but just as many times it doesn't. That's life. Hell your Irish. What the Brits have done to your country is that fair? Hey man, life's a bitch & then you die... & bottom line what Floyd did pushed the envelope but it WAS within the rules & e was reacting over an egregious foul.

Btw: I'm no Floyd fan but the piling on is ridiculous.

GorDoom

Gor, I am agreeing with you. I know well life is not fair. But, are you really
that pessimistic for humans? Life can be fair, if people choose to play it fair.
Not everyone is a cheat, or dishonest, or corrupt. I do believe there is more
good and decent people on earth than nasty and corrupt people.

My point is that this attitude that you are displaying is off the mark.

We all know cheats exist, dishonesty exists etc. But, it is not the only way.

I just don't understand the defeatist atitude you are showing. "If you are not cheating you
are not trying." That is not true for many many people in this world.

In relation to Floyd and Ortiz; Floyd cheap shot the guy. That to me is obvious. But, under
those circumstances, I will give him a pass.

In realtion to the world of sport: Yes, I expect and want it to be fair and above board.
I know well that at times it is not, but I do believe that there are more people playing fair and honest than
those cheating and scamming. You seem to be suggesting that there is more cheating and scamming
going on, and that this is the way its is, get over it. Those cheating and scamming do not get
my praise. They are simply cheats.

[diggity]

Shit, I'd pay twice the PPV amount to see PBF get KTFO like Ortiz did.
Hell, god knows I've paid for the chance a few times by now (but not anymore).
Hopefully Pac will do it one day before he is 40 but in the ring instead of a courtroom.
I doubt you'd see Pac take out a sucker like Ortiz like PBF did.

The sport needs its villians as evidenced by this lengthy thread, my only issue that I can do without PBF crying about how he gets no respect.
KTFO out of any defenseless person you want, hit women or do whatever things classless guys like PBF do, just don't go out there with your violin and try to play the gentleman card later and expect sympathy somehow.

[JLP 6]

I can do without PBF crying about how he gets no respect.
KTFO out of any defenseless person you want, hit women or do whatever things classless guys like PBF do, just don't go out there with your violin and try to play the gentleman card later and expect sympathy somehow.

Yes sir

[mrbig1]

Not the power of Mayweather but the lack of anything else going on.

You're right my friend. Still who else is the face of boxing. I think the PPV numbers will show this.

[Kid Dynamite]

You're right my friend. Still who else is the face of boxing. I think the PPV numbers will show this.

Very true. Sad that boxing has sunk so low that an arrogant, wife beating thug that seems to avoid the biggest fights is the face of boxing.

[Michael Frank]

Gor, I don't blame Floyd at all. I probably would have done the same under THOSE
circumstances. It was Ortiz who started it.

I know well that cheaters and liars do succeed. But, they also fail. Conversely, honesty and integrity
sees success and failure. I live in Ireland, where the bigger the rogue, the more they get on.

I just don't think that this attitude that you have is the "be all and end all."

I strive for class, style and justice. I don't commend or celebrate or revel in a person or a
group or a team that succeeds through cheating or corruption, or cheap tactics. It does
not impress me, nor does it at all inspire me. It's quite sad really. Sadder is that this is
seen as the way to go now. Standards, manners and decency are dying out, as is shame.

Well put. I'm with walshb. Not only philosophically, but also in that I don't think the world has gone to hell in a handbasket just because numerous examples of life's unfairness can be produced. (And I'm not religious, either.)

Respectfully disagreeing with GorDoom here, but some of your remarks Gor-- that "If you're not cheating, your not trying; Cheaters win a lot in the real world; Do you really expect life to be fair?; That's life" . . . these sound only like rationalizations that would come from a cheater, and I feel quite confident you're not that way, at all, in any phase of your life.

Gor, your remarks are unfortunately true, except, I believe, the one about if you're not cheating, you're not trying. I believe all sportsmen function mostly within the rules, many purely so. Hell, in golf, they have to call penalties on THEMSELVES and the pros do it all the time-- in 1968, pro golfer Roberto DeVicenzo signed his scorecard showing a 5 on a hole where he actually had made a 4, but he didn't complain about this error, though he knew this small detail had just cost him first-place in the Masters! An infamous lesson for all time. There are numerous pro golf examples, and calling penalties on one's self costs these guys tens of thousands of dollars.

Two of my favorite fighters ever, Thomas Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard, seemed to fight all opponents as cleanly as they come. Kenny Norton, Joe Frazier, Alexis Arguello, Sugar Ray Robinson, hell, MANY, many others, are/were very clean fighters for whom I can't think of one foul that they committed. Fair play and sportsmanship are achieved every day in pro sports . . . why demean ALL participants? Much less doing so regarding their character, and with a broad generalization no less?

Back to your comments that I referred to: I could see warning someone, such as a future opponent of a dirty fighter, or even a new spectator to boxing, with the words you used. In such a case, you are affording knowledge and a sort of protection to such people with those remarks. But the way you stated them is from the position of justifying cheating, almost recommending it even, which I honestly don't believe reflects who you are.

Sure, I can't stand Mayweather, the POS who some others here sadly consider the face of our sport, maybe correctly. I had defended his actions because he had been intentionally fouled multiple times by his opponent, FIRST. But, realizing that he truly cheap-shotted Ortiz upon seeing other angles on the re-broadcast, I simply cannot defend what he did on the basis that "Cheating is expected, and you're not trying if you don't cheat." That's not the way it is in many aspects of life, and I am quite sure that many athletes don't cheat at all; and some others might only barely ever bend the rules, and even those guys, never flagrantly (such as Muhammad Ali, a very clean fighter, who always showed sportsmanship in the ring, and who merely held guys heads down for an extra second-- when clinching by itself isn't considered cheating and occurs in pretty much all fights).

I thought Floyd's reaction was damned human, after the fouls he received, but upon review it was obvious that he committed a foul that, in my opinion, numerous fighters would have committed based on the context, but at least as many wouldn't have. Yeah, I would have loved to see Floyd lose, and that manner wouldn't have bothered me . . . but still I wouldn't say "It's dirty, but dirt is part of the sport." Because it isn't, generally. And had Floyd not been fouled himself, then I wouldn't have justified it at all.

I really wonder what kind of friends people like Fritzie Zivic and Andrew Golota attracted.

[kikibalt]

ROBERT MORALES on BOXING: De La Hoya says fans 'cheated' by Mayweather-Ortiz

By Robert Morales, boxing columnist
sgvt.com


Oscar De La Hoya isn't letting it go. The promoter for Victor Ortiz on Monday played host to a conference call and spoke in demanding tones about an Ortiz-Floyd Mayweather Jr. rematch.

Two weeks ago today in Las Vegas, Mayweather knocked out Ortiz in the fourth round when Ortiz didn't put up his dukes after their welterweight title fight had been waved back on following Ortiz's point deduction for an intentional head-butt.

Mayweather didn't break the rules, but De La Hoya still wants his fighter to get some relief.

"Call it legal, call it illegal, it was bad sportsmanship, plain and simple," De La Hoya said. "That is not the way to take someone's championship. If Mayweather Jr. has any sort of honor, and I'm sure he does, he'll give Victor Ortiz the rematch."

De La Hoya fought several so-called dirty fighters during his 45-fight career. He was asked how many of them would have taken advantage of the situation the way Mayweather did.

"Zero, none of them," De La Hoya said. "Not even Ricardo Mayorga would have done that."

Yeah, all Mayorga did was trash-talk De La Hoya and his wife, Millie, before being knocked out in the sixth round by De La Hoya in 2006.

De La Hoya's most hated rival wouldn't have done that either, he said.

"Not even a Fernando Vargas," he said. "And that tells you a lot. This fight was barely warming up. We were cheated, everyone was cheated - especially Victor Ortiz - from a great fight happening."

Vargas
Advertisement
came into his fight with De La Hoya in 2002 on steroids. Vargas started strongly but ultimately was stopped in the 11 th round.

Even fellow promoter Bob Arum told this newspaper that of all the hundreds of fighters he's known and promoted, he didn't know one that would have done what Mayweather did.

"I really don't know any," Arum said via telephone.

But another promoter, Dan Goossen of Goossen Tutor Promotions in Sherman Oaks, already is tired of hearing people criticize Mayweather. He said he has closely scrutinized the events of that night at MGM Grand.

"Especially after watching the replay, there were a few things that really came out that I believe people have missed the point on all this. First of all, how many times can you hug and kiss?" Goossen said, referring to the embraces Ortiz seemed to initiate with Mayweather after Ortiz's head-butt. After their final hug, Mayweather hit Ortiz twice.

"I'm tired of seeing that, the hand-slapping and all that. We have two warriors out there. I don't mind congratulating someone after a good, hard fight, but not during the fight. I think that presents problems in a lot of various situations.

"Obviously, this is one of them."

When referee Joe Cortez waved the fighters back together, it was time to fight, Goossen said. It's Ortiz's fault for not realizing that. The notion that Cortez was looking at the timekeeper instead of the fighters when Mayweather first hit Ortiz is of no consequence.

"I'm a firm believer of not only protecting yourself at all times, but when the referee says, 'Let's go,' in spite of the fact he wasn't looking at anyone inside the ring, 'let's go' means 'let's go,' and Ortiz had the duty to fight," Goossen said. "When he's saying 'let's go,' you're not thinking he's saying, 'Let's hug again.'

"What he's saying is 'Let's get back to fighting,' and that's what Floyd did. You can't sit there and say you gotta show good sportsmanship. Cortez had them in the center of the ring, brought his hands together. Floyd was being a good sportsman by allowing Ortiz to hug him again."

Ortiz, meanwhile, still doesn't seem to get the idea that even if he didn't have his guard up for the first punch, he should have put it up as soon as that first punch landed. He was asked Monday why he didn't.

"I didn't think I needed to, because Cortez was there," he said.

Well, Cortez didn't do a very good job that night, but it's not his fault Ortiz left his guard down.

Mayweather has said he'd give Ortiz a rematch, but he most likely is going to wait until the Manny Pacquiao-Juan Manuel Marquez fight Nov. 12 before doing anything. A Pacquiao win could prompt a round of negotiations for Pacquiao-Mayweather.

"We want him to do the right thing, not just for us but for his legacy and his fans," Rolando Arellano, Ortiz's manager, said of Mayweather. "Give the guy his fair shot. If you're the best of the best, then beat us like the best of the best."

De La Hoya this week tweeted that if Mayweather gives Ortiz a rematch, he (meaning De La Hoya) might give Mayweather another shot at him.

De La Hoya must have forgotten that Mayweather already beat him in 2007. He doesn't need another shot at De La Hoya.

Besides, De La Hoya, 38, is washed up as a fighter.
Kirkland looks to recapture the past

Fighting for powerful Golden Boy Promotions has its advantages, and James Kirkland is the most recent beneficiary of that.

Kirkland recently spent about 18 months in prison for a parole violation. That alone could have ruined his career, but Golden Boy stuck by him. When he was released a year ago it announced plans to get Kirkland back in the ring as soon as possible.

The former top junior middleweight contender knocked out a couple of stiffs and then was stopped in the first round by light-hitting Nobuhiro Ishida in April.

It appeared Kirkland might be done, but he came back and stopped a couple of more club fighters and that somehow earned him a date on HBO. On Nov. 5, he will take on contender Alfredo Angulo in Cancun, Mexico.

"This is a fight that fans have been looking forward to for years and now we are finally going to see Angulo vs. Kirkland, and the word 'explosive' won't do it justice," said Richard Schaefer, CEO of Golden Boy Promotions.

"There's no mystery as to what either fighter wants to do on November 5 th. James and Alfredo are both going to be looking for the knockout and I can't wait to see it."

If Kirkland (29-1, 26 KOs) is back to the fighter he was before going back to prison, this could be a very hard-hitting, fan-pleasing fight. But no one will know that until he gets into the ring with Mexicali's Angulo (20-1, 17 KOs), whose only loss is to former welterweight champion Kermit Cintron.

"Angulo has been on my radar for a long time and I'm happy that we're finally going to get a chance to fight each other," Kirkland said. "He's a good fighter, I like his style and I know we're going to make for a great fight."

Angulo can't wait.

"This is the kind of fight boxing needs and I respect James Kirkland for stepping up and taking it," he said. "We're not going to dance or hug in there on November 5; we're going to fight."
ETC.

Former middleweight champion Sergio Martinez (47-2-2, 26 KOs) of Argentina will take on Darren Barker (23-0, 14 KOs) of London in tonight's main event at Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City (on HBO). Martinez once held two titles but was stripped by the respective governing bodies. ... Brandon Rios (28-0-1, 21 KOs), the lightweight champion from Oxnard, will defend his title on the undercard of the Dec. 3 rematch between junior middleweight champion Miguel Cotto and Antonio Margarito at Madison Square Garden in New York City (on HBO pay-per-view). Rios' opponent is to be determined. ... Speaking of Cotto-Margarito, promoter Bob Arum told this newspaper this week the controversy that materialized from their first match, won by Margarito via 11 th-round TKO, will make the return engagement even more of a hot commodity. "Of course, of course," Arum said. "That is how our society is." Six months after they first fought in July 2008, Margarito was busted with illegal hand wraps prior to his welterweight title fight with "Sugar" Shane Mosley. At that point Cotto wondered if perhaps Margarito also had loaded wraps when they fought. ... Bernard Hopkins (52-5-2, 32 KOs) will defend his light heavyweight title against former champion Chad Dawson (30-1, 17 KOs) on Oct. 15 at Staples Center (on HBO pay-per-view).

[Phillyfan]

please, a promoter arguing for his fighter to get a rematch, I wonder why, is it the 30% of 10 million? Notice delahoya not mentioning the headbutt. Ask him if any of his opponents blatantly launched themselves at his face and how he would react if they did. no one wants to see a ortiz/mayweather rematch. Ortiz headbutt and laughing while on his butt was all I need to see of him.
Isn't dale earnhart, the intimitator, one of the most beloved race cardrivers in history? why? because he did anything to win. Mcgwire and bonds, home run champs,steroid cheaters. Clemens, cheater. Just look at qawi/holyfield. One fighter won, supposedly by cheating. he went on to get big paydays and big fights. The other works in a substance abuse shelter.

[Overhand_Right]

Holyfield beat Qawi by cheating?

Come on.

[Michael Frank]

Isn't dale earnhart, the intimitator, one of the most beloved race cardrivers in history? why? because he did anything to win. Mcgwire and bonds, home run champs,steroid cheaters. Clemens, cheater. Just look at qawi/holyfield. One fighter won, supposedly by cheating. he went on to get big paydays and big fights. The other works in a substance abuse shelter.

Wow. As I have nothing bad to say about Qawi and nothing bad to say about anyone who works in a substance abuse shelter, either, I just couldn't disagree with this perspective more.

The rest of the 2nd paragraph seems to endorse cheating wholeheartedly, unequivocelly, and unashamedly. Unreal. I guess some think we need more cheaters/liars like Clemens, Bonds, etc., and that we should look down our noses at a Qawi. Well, not me.

If Qawi finished his career or his life with less money than these others . . . so what?

[Phillyfan]

from qawi on another thread
"D.Q: Well, firstly, I suspect he [Evander] was juiced up. I look at that fight as very suspicious. It was a great fight, but I feel I was cheated in the fight. Cheated out of the win and cheated out of history. I remember before the fight, watching Holyfield fight Lionel Byarm, who was my sparring partner at the time. He could barely go the six rounds with him. He was
breathing real hard after just six rounds. In the fight with me, his corner definitely gave Holyfield something. I had him in the fourth and fifth rounds, if you watch the tape you’ll see, but then, in round six, he came back on. He lost fifteen pounds in the fight and had to be hospitalised because his body was in shock. Back then I didn’t really know too much about steroids and stuff, but now I definitely think he took something illegal. I know guys get a second wind, I used to myself, but that was not a second wind when he came on real strong late in the fight. He was throwing loads of punches like an amateur kid or something. It was crazy."

I'm not looking down my nose at qawi at all. I agree with him. I always believed holyfield was on the juice, the bloated body, loss of hair, and heart problems all make sense. What would you call one fighter being on the juice and not the other. i would call it cheating. I believe qawi's title was taken from him by a fighter who cheated using steriods, there , I said it. With that title, came bigger paydays. Qawi was denied those paydays.

As for endorsing cheating, you couldn't be more wrong. I hate cheaters. I'm just stating the facts. Bonds is the home run champ, is he not? ernhardt's memory is revered among race fans, is it not? clemens has world series rings, does he not? Facts, not an endorsment. I'm just agreeing with gordoom, life isn't fair.

[Phillyfan]

And I'd better clarify my earnhardt comments. I am not saying he cheated, I'm just saying he did whatever it took to win.
The qawi example is the main reason I haven't come down of floyd for demanding additional testing of pacman. Qawi has a point, however the fight occured, the outcome is in the books. Any objection by qawi now looks like sour grapes.
I believe floyd when he says he wants to face a fighter on a level playing field. Erase any doubt of steroids before a fight and there will be no controversy afterwards.

[Overhand_Right]

Oh so just because Qawi lost we have to believe him when he says Holyfield was juiced up? And they gave him some magic potion that made him come on down the stretch? Didn't we used to call that a second wind?

"Bloated body, loss of hair, heart problems all make sense". He was a gym freak, he lost his hair in his mid-30s like literally millions of men and the heart problem was a misdiagnosis from now nearly 20 years ago.

I can't believe year after year after year the same bullshit is thrown at Holyfield despite never failing any test over a 27 pro career. How long did it take for Botha and Toney to get caught? Mosley?

[Phillyfan]

And Hulk hogan got that big by saying his prayers and taking vitamins. And all pryor had in that black bottle was water, and margarito didn't know if there was plaster of paris on his handwraps and bonds thought it was skin cream. Believe what you want to believe.

[JaKob]

The difference being there is no genuine evidence whatsoever to indicate Holyfield was using PED's. It doesn't make a whole lotta sense to claim he was a steroid user with any level of certitude.

I certainly have my doubts about his reign at HW. To pack on that much extra quality muscle mass whilst engaging in the high intensity anaerobic training required to compete at the highest level is a very difficult task indeed. However in terms of individual genetic potential we have a very broad spectrum. It is possible it's simply the outcome of favourable genetics and work ethic. To exclude this possibility all together is a failure to be objective.

[Phillyfan]

genetics, all the wrestlers used to say that too. I'm just giving my opinion on what my eyes see. His bloated frame looks much like ben johnsons did. most of the time, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck....

[Overhand_Right]

So was Ken Norton and Mike Weaver on roids too?

Bringing in wrestlers, handwraps or Pryors bottle on a Holyfield discussion is going so far off topic its silly.

[jlupi]

if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck....>>>>

it sounds like you see the world as a pond

[Phillyfan]

yes, its my pond. but you're all welcome.
having a holyfield discussion on a mayweather/ortiz thread is silly.

[Phillyfan]

So was Ken Norton and Mike Weaver on roids too?

Bringing in wrestlers, handwraps or Pryors bottle on a Holyfield discussion is going so far off topic its silly.

were norton or weaver cruisers?
in 1967, norton weighed 202 pounds. probably biggest weight gain, between 73-74 when he went from 205-218
in 1984, holyfield weighed 177 pounds. biggest weight gain when he moved up to heavyweight 88-89. He went from 190-212.
22 pounds of muscle, thats a lot of steak dinners. plus losing fat to stay that cut.

I'm talking prime of fighting time, not end of career weight.

I know I know, numbers don't mean anything, butterbean went from blah blah blah to ????, does that mean he's on steroids.
Its not proof, just my opinion.

[Overhand_Right]

Like most people who throw accusations at Holyfield, You're not equipped with the facts. Holyfield in 1984 was a boy fresh out the amateurs. By 1988 he was DRAINING himself to make 190, and walking around at 200+. You surely don't think that 190 was both his fight weight AND his natural walk around weight do you?

What weight did he fight Tillis at in his heavyweight debut? 202 lbs!

A mere FIVE YEARS later, he was fighting Bowe at 217.

So he didn't even have the dramatic weight gain Ken Norton did, who nobody is accusing of being juiced up.

[Overhand_Right]

I certainly have my doubts about his reign at HW. To pack on that much extra quality muscle mass whilst engaging in the high intensity anaerobic training required to compete at the highest level is a very difficult task indeed. However in terms of individual genetic potential we have a very broad spectrum. It is possible it's simply the outcome of favourable genetics and work ethic. To exclude this possibility all together is a failure to be objective.

Interestingly, Manny Steward in the 1999 Lennox Lewis documentary around the first Holyfield fight remarks in camp that when he was with Holyfield he never ran. Said he hated running and he did it only one time and complained the whole time, unlike Hearns who was always running. Also, Holyfield didn't like to engage in too much sparring either, he sounds like he was all about the weights, strength and conditioning.

(Steward was with Holyfield for the Alex Stewart and Riddick Bowe rematches)

[Michael Frank]

Muhammad Ali was 178 pounds max as an amateur, yet up to 192 only a couple of months later for his pro debut, then 204 in late 1962 for Archie Moore (just 2 years later), 210 for the first Liston fight in Feb. 1964, 212+ by late 1966, and generally 220+ by late 1971. Dropping to 212 for his two 1973 rematches (Frazier and Norton), which was considered top shape for him that particular year, but he was back up over 220 generally after that except for the Foreman fight (216.5 there). This is all before his last few years at 220+.

With no steroid accusations. Nor, of course, did he look it. I don't see where weight gain in itself is proof of anything related to steroids.

Holyfield was comparable, IMO, to a young Ali, simply filling out into manhood after the Olympics at light-heavy AND, unlike Ali, committed to a heavy weightlifting regimen. Unlike Ali, also, however, in that Ali had naturally huge upper legs and calves.

I'd be the first to criticize Holyfield's alleged steroid use, had he done roids, but to my knowledge there has been no evidence of that with him, and he was as hi-profile as an athlete can be.

[walshb]

Interestingly, Manny Steward in the 1999 Lennox Lewis documentary around the first Holyfield fight remarks in camp that when he was with Holyfield he never ran. Said he hated running and he did it only one time and complained the whole time, unlike Hearns who was always running. Also, Holyfield didn't like to engage in too much sparring either, he sounds like he was all about the weights, strength and conditioning.

(Steward was with Holyfield for the Alex Stewart and Riddick Bowe rematches)

Disliked running and didn't spar much; no wonder he gassed in fights.

[Julian Jackson]

Although I have no problem with people defending Evander under an "innocent until PROVEN guilty" standard, I think it is incorrect and naive. From the sound of the following article it looks like Evander was indeed right in the thick of this steriod scandal. Like cheater Lance Armstrong, he may have the financial means to hush and obscure the story enough to leave enough 'reasonable doubt" to avoid prosecution.

The story ftom "The TImes" is copied here:

"A new drugs scandal in the United States is believed to be so potentially damaging that it has been dubbed “The East Coast Balco” and yesterday the first global name was implicated: Evander Holyfield, the four-time heavyweight boxing champion.

Holyfield issued an immediate denial, but evidence has emerged from raids on a number of pharmacies on the East Coast that raises serious questions about his connections with pharmaceutical companies.

Holyfield, 44, started his professional career as a cruiserweight more than 20 years ago. He always traded on his moniker, “The Real Deal”, and was long viewed as one of the more admirable figures in the sport. However, that reputation has taken a considerable hammering in recent years as he has ignored all the evidence of his advancing years and refused to retire from the ring.

Holyfield has won only four of his past ten bouts, yet it was only on Tuesday that he was fuelling the media at a Manhattan press conference with predictions about his achievements at his next bout, which is only 15 days away. The contest is in Corpus Christi, Texas, against Vinny Maddalone, a 33-year-old brawler with an unremarkable record who, Holyfield attested, would be just another statistic on his march to becoming undisputed world heavyweight champion again.

But even as he spoke, investigators were beginning to analyse their findings from two drugs raids in Florida earlier that day. They were carried out by federal and state agents, one on a clinic in Orlando called the Signature Pharmacy, the other on the Palm Beach Rejuvenation Center in Jupiter. The former is a client of the latter, apparently to the tune of some £10 million."