hahahahaha, GOLD.Originally Posted by PD99
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hahahahaha, GOLD.
The Welterweight Epitome. I had one lousy day today, tired, worked to death, in pain, and like Yul Brenner said in "The King and I," "Etc, etc, etc."
Yet when I saw your comment, "I loved the bared teeth," and viewed that clip again, which I have seen, I laughed until my ribs ached. I loved the bared teeth too.
Do not mess with the Larry.
The guy just headbutted him in the face. You think floyd wants to give him another opportunity? Ortiz was looking directly at him, going in for another hug. Mayweather pushed him away, then fired a left. At which point ortiz, instead of defending himself, decided to look at the ref as if to say, hey, he just hit me, make him stop.
My only problem with floyd is he doesn't fight enough. He is in shape 365 days a year, he could fight once a month if he wanted to. He's at, or near, his peak fighting skills, use them. Fighting once a year is BS. But if people keep buying into PPV, he only has to fight once a year, if that.
If you can get away with making 50 million for fighting once a year, more power to you.
I think he has to make the fight with pac now. HBO won't hype another lesser opponent.The public won't settle for anything less.
Hey Ron,
I would take credit but that was PDs comment, but I'm glad it lightened up your day! Larry is one funny guy, I can't put my finger on his personality, he seems a real mystery of a guy, the look in his eyes sometimes just has something hidden behind them.....
Hope tomorrow is better for you my friend!
Sorry, PD99, it was funny, thanks welter.
Off to the radio show.
Sorry, PD99, it was funny, thanks welter.
Off to the radio show.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...87,full.column
Ring referee Joe Cortez calls Mayweather-Ortiz as he sees it
Sorry about Joe's mom, I lost my mom too last year. As to the fight, he lost control, turned away, did not step between them properly and ask if both were ready after such a controversy. He did not do a good job, his entire attention was away from the boxers while the KO went down. The Commissioner saying he did a "Good job" is as up in the trees as saying Mercante Junior did a good job in Cotto v Yuri Foreman. Backing up your guys is admirable, bullshitting the public is not.
Never said I disagreed with what PBF did in there. I'm sure many of us would have retaliated worse in the heat of the moment.
Just making the point that here's a guy who's constantly crying that he gets no respect, so how about taking the high road for once?
That being said, why the rush to end the fight like that when you know that there will be controversy over it?
We're not talking about blame here (which was clearly Ortiz's).
The bottom line is that Ortiz was clearly not ready to fight, PBF knew it and went right ahead and did what he did anyway well knowing it could end the fight on a sour note.
What P4P, all-time great needs a cheap shot like that to win a fight or makes a conscious decision like that?
Especially a fight when most people in the know knew Ortiz didn't have much as of a chance (as I'm sure PBF believed too).
PBF wants the part but doesn't play it, and I get that.
Just don't go crying about it later that nobody appreciated you, respected you & etc.
He blazed his own trail himself and there's nobody to blame for that but him.
Bingo.
Philly you are way off with the Ali comparisons . . no-one gives an F he went on WWE and Dancing with the Stars, they care he humiliates his own father on HBO, roughs up the mother of his own children right in front of them, flaunts his money at a time when many are hurting, acts like an overall dick. This isn't Ali hanging out with the black muslims during the Civil Rights era or cheating on his wife in Manilla.
Not to milk this absolutely dry but I was thinking that it would be difficult to imagine a better hypothetical conundrum (to test opinion) than the scenario that actually played out between Mayweather and Oritz.
Of course, the less than ideal actions of ALL three principal players (Mayweather, Ortiz and Cortez) brought that brief moment in time into its exact focus.
I agree with DIG. Divorced from blame, a cheap shot is a cheap shot. Was Ortiz's use of the head pre-meditated. Perhaps. There was earlier evidence of his using the head. However, it was in the heat of active exchange. Not to excuse it at all but possibly Ortiz's actions can be attributed in part to instantaneous reaction. Ortiz's over-the-top Amanda Hugginkiss act lends itself to his collecting himself after a momentary and at least partially involuntary lapse.
On the other hand, after a break in the action, Floyd's hands were deliberately loaded and ready to be off-loaded on a completely unsuspecting and defenseless Ortiz who took barely one step back before he was cracked with the first punch.
At the end of the day, Mayweather DID cheap shot Ortiz to secure the KO. If there are those who believe that Floyd was on his way to a brutal dismantling and dispatching of Ortiz anyway, well, it was Floyd himself who removed any possibility of turning that forecast into reality.
The question of same now remains forever in the realms of debate. Since it was Floyd's own cheap shots that ended the fight I don't think that Mayweather deserves any consideration for having been able to secure victory in other manner than than the exact fashion in which he did, retaliatory or not. For the that limitation of credit, Floyd has ONLY himself to blame, imo.
If so in control of the fight as some perceive, Floyd could've just as easily proceeded to "twist the knife" over several more rounds for greater retribution before ultimately achieving an absolutely clean victory with a few more valuable rounds of activity under his belt as an added bonus.
Given how a calm and more than deliberate Floyd DID it end it, the question of how things might've really panned out is forever left OPEN. Further, it does allow for the not-so-unreasonable suggestion that, sans headbutt, Ortiz's success otherwise just prior to the KO lead Floyd to thinking that it was BEST to get this thing OVER asap lest Ortiz begin to find his way more frequently as the fight progressed.
Who says Floyds reaction was pre-planned, for all we know, it's just reflex given how much of a counter-puncher he is. He sees hands down, the fight is on, he shoots. A good boxer can't think, he is in the flow.
I'm pretty sure Ray Robinson was abused, things thrown at him and hid under the ring apron for hitting in the kidneys in Germany? Maybe I don't remember correctly, but come on, Floyd was lightyears ahead of Ortiz and won that fight fair and square before a very odd ending.
That's all I will comment, feels like the old dead horse is about to start squeeling in the paddock!
Last edited by The Welterweight Epitome; 09-22-2011 at 02:43 AM.
it was obviously planned in advance,
it can be spotted in real time and is much easier to spot in the replays, Floyd half assly touches gloves, moving really slow looking like he's doing something wrong, trying to be sneaky and then, boom explodes,
I was just thinking about Joe Cortez though, Ron could probably answer this, how can a referee start counting over a fallen fighter when that referee has no clue how the fighter came to be lying on the floor?
Cortez had not a fuckin clue how Ortiz came to be on the ground and then just starts counting, maybe Floyd kicked him in the balls and he fell, maybe Floyd cracked him with an elbow? Maybe something was thrown from outside the ring?
Could the result of the fight be changed based on that evidence? that the referee counted Ortiz out when he missed the two punches that landed completely and therefore was in no position to make a ruling as to how that fighter got put on the floor?
Cmon....
Maybe I don't remember correctly, but come on, Floyd was lightyears ahead of Ortiz >>>>
first, some thought floyd lost the 2nd and may have been loosing the 4th. 2nd, even if you thought floyd was "lightyears ahead" so what? ortiz has NO chance of landing a big punch? I just fail to see this logic.
on another note once again Im glad i wasnt one of the suckers that bought a marred fight that should not have been on ppv in the first place.
I thought what happened was pretty straight foward when I saw the replays on youtube. Cortez said a half assed "fight" and looked away. Ortiz thought time was out and Mayweather took advantage of the situation. Mayweather did nothing illegal but it didnt show good sportsmanship.
Mayweather I believe did something similar against Mosley. It was obvious to me that Floyd did it on purpose.
I'm just saying there are certain similarities. Yet one boxer is beloved and another vilified. Humiliates his father on HBO? Floyd sr is the one loving every minute of the publicity. How would you feel if your father said he wanted to train one of your opponents. Its jrs gym and he has said repeatedly roger is his trainer. If floyd sr was so humiliated, why does he show up at all the fights soaking up all the attention. Flaunts his money?God bless him I'm glad he is making money. Again, they show him making fun of the money, not what he does with it. Who knows how much he's given away or how many people he's helped financially. I'm sure everyone who made money off this fight is thankfull to him. Who's the bigger dick/fool, floyd for flaunting his money, or mike tyson for losing all his money?
Who's the bigger dick/fool, floyd for flaunting his money, or mike tyson for losing all his money?>>>>>
isnt that how tyson lost all his money? didn't the IRS help floyd in his decision for a comeback. Some never learn.
just for the sake of argument, what would you say about a boxer that
publicly insulted his opponents before a fight
taunted at least one opponent in the ring
publically humiliated his wife
proclaimed himself the greatest boxer of all time
took part in a professional wrestling match
had an entourage
repeatedly fouled opponents in the ring
hand picked certain opponents, some over the hill, some inexperienced.
didn't come to some fights in shape
leaned against the ropes and waited untill opponents got tired of hitting him
hung out with a group that was feared by mainstream america
was arrested
yelled at the press?
I know I'm going to make some people mad with this one, but I'm doing it to show not everything is black and white. Acting like "an overall dick" to some, might be entertainment to others.
R. It's insane isn't it, he wasn't even watching, he just leaves boxers unattended. What is more crazy is when someone on a respective Commission whether it is Nevada, NY or NJ knows damn well a referee screwed up, e.g. Junior in Cotto v Foreman and Jones v Scotland death, and says like Nevada did this time, "He did a good job."
Yeah, that's how it is all right, Cortez and Mercante Junior did a good job. What a crock!
I have watched the video. Did Cortez instruct the fighters to "box?"
I did not hear him say it, and nor did his lips appear to say it. So, if he didn't, then
how does Floyd get the win?
Cortez saying he said it means nothing if it cannot be proved he said it.
The video is pretty clear and it doesn't seem to show him saying to both men
to "box."
great point by the madman. cortez lost control. his signal to box was vague and almost silent Ortiz never heard it. and he was looking away never knowing how the hell vic got on the ground. it could have been a groin shot for all he knew. what a pathetic job. again i also dont think it was floyds fight. obviously he was gonna do well at the beginning, but vic was coming on with aggression and strength that jr hasnt seen for a while and the last eight rounds would have been interesting to me. again when vic had him on the ropes there was no comeback from floyd and clean hit or not its vics points.
After formally telling the 3 judges to deduct points from Ortiz for the headbutt, Cortez takes Ortiz by the hand to a corner and tells him "Don't be doin' that. Don't be doin' that." Then immediately afterwards, he clearly says, "Let's go!" and then waves them on.
At that point he is distracted, his attention diverted to someone outside of the ring.
How Ortiz can claim not to have heard this and seen Cortez's gesture is beyond me. At that moment, it was fight resumed. Game on.
Instead Ortiz walks towards Mayweather with his defences down, seeking a bizarre love-in.
The fight was waved on. I don't blame Mayweather because how many times is he going to stand there waiting for Ortiz to finish apologizing? The rule is 'PROTECT YOURSELF AT ALL TIMES'...One of Ortiz's amateur rivals mentioned before the bout that Vic would blow it because he is "weak-minded." All the demonstrations of sorrow and apologia ad infinitum were actually a sign of this weakness after he had succumbed to frustration at been outgunned by Floyd with a wild attempted headbutt.
Reverse the positions and I wonder how many would have got all so technical. They would have said Mayweather deserved it!
For a guy who is painted as this out-of-control creature from the ghetto, he is very cool in the ring. I can imagine other fighters instinctively retaliating with a headbutt of their own. It could have degenerated into a brawl. Floyd's quickly executed evasive tactics on the ropes likely saved him from a major gash or even concussion.
Duke Mackenzie and other fighters said they would have retaliated. Floyd's 'retaliation' was absolutely merited. How much longer did he have to wait for Ortiz to get his hands up? In the words of the immortal Jack Dempsey, "What did he expect me to do? Mail him a letter?"
I think the Mayweather-Ortiz fight will become a 'great' bout to use to educate people about boxing. First, to reinforce to budding/practising referees to be always vigilant & keep control of the fighters. Secondly, to reinforce to young fighters the cardinal maxim of boxing: PROTECT YOURSELF AT ALL TIMES.
Last edited by Adeyinka; 09-22-2011 at 09:00 PM.
I haven't seen the fight yet, only the knock out on you tube. I remember being told by another fighter that " if you apologize sincerely after you foul some one, you can foul him three or four times before he retaliates." If I had been Mayweather I would have done the same thing he did.
134
I agree that Ortiz clearly showed that he is "weak minded", as understood in boxing parlance.
Again, I see a "Can't have your cake and eat it too" angle. The head-butt by Ortiz has been used to support the suggestion that Mayweather was dominating and frustating Ortiz with his evasions. However, given Ortiz's "weak" mindset, it doesn't necessarily stand to reason that Ortiz's head butt was borne out of his ACTUALLY being dominated as thoroughly as some believe.
Remember, the guy is "weak minded" which might also be described as having a very low frustation point and appalling lack of discipline. The absolute irony of the head butt was that it was launched after some relatively successful connections against a not so cooly disposed Mayweather against the ropes. Ortiz simply interrupted his own measure of success. And if you're not sure that Ortiz didn't simply experience a highly irrational moment there is then the equally if not more "out there" apologetic behaviour that followed thereafter.
As a semi-analogy, Golota was certainly not at the short end of the fight when he explicably fouled himself out of the Bowe fight. It was just crazy, mind-implosion stuff that has little rhyme or reason.
excellent post. Floyd did the same thing with judah, all chaos breaks out in the ring but floyd keeps his head. He doesn't retaliate with his own low blow.
Just curious, but if ortiz had gone down from a low blow, without the ref seeing in, could the boxing commissioner step in and make the ref aware what had happened?
Belle and I, as well as all the other viewers in the Century 21 Theater, where we watched the fight, never heard it either. Everyone was angry and deeply disappointed.
If this is a hallmark of one of boxing's key axioms (i.e., "Protect yourself at all times"), then you can keep boxing. Just tuck it in a dark corner next to dog fighting, gladiator wars and man versus beast contests from the ancient Roman days, and bear versus bull matches in the days of antiquity.
Mark my words, this was a HUGE black eye for boxing.
I think this rule about defend yourself at all times is a pathetic excuse, at times.
There is also integrity, sportsmanship, decency and fairness.
If the fight is ON, then yes, a fighter drops hands, nail him.
But, in that fight, Floyd took two cheap shots; he knew they were, and so
did anyone who saw them. The excuse above doesn't excuse it.
Joe Cortez is a sham. He acted like a WWF referee that night.
In the video it is not at all clear that he said box, or was in control.
100% correct walshb.
Yes fair call, I'm just playing devils advocate here. But I saw a dominant display of boxing and generalship in that ring. The end is the end, poor sportsmanship, but within the rules.
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