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Thread: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

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    Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    At Middleweight over 15 rounds who do you think would have wone between Dick Tiger and Jake Lamotta, maybe the two strongest Middleweights of the modern era?

    Any views fight fans?

  2. #2
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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Tiger would be too strong for LaMotta I reckon. He would bull (no pun intended) LaMotta around and win a decision. I reckon Tiger would be more efficient with his punches landed and outwork LaMotta.

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Gents, I'm not sure about this one... God knows Tiger was strong, certainly had better defense than Jake. I think Dick would win the first ten rounds something like 6-3-1 or 7-3.

    But, you know... I can see Tiger going down at least once, somewhere around the 11th or 12th. He'd get up, but that KD would make the score a lot closer.

    So, down the stretch, LaMotta wins... how many? Three out of five rounds? In that case Tiger takes it. But what about if the Bull takes four out of five, and has a knockdown? Not that Tiger lacked endurance, but that crazy LaMotta just wouldn't back away and I think his "just keep coming on and wear 'em down" strategy would take its toll. Course, Tiger would be landing a lot of shots as well, but still... somehow I think Tiger would really be on the defensive down the stretch, greater strength notwithstanding.

    This is why I love these threads! I've never matched these guys up in my head before. It would be a great fight or series.

    I'll take Jake in two out of three, all three close decisions. But it sure wouldn't surprise me to see Tiger reverse that!

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Excellant post. Ironically, I read a newspaper clipping on the fight between Lloyd marshall and Jake. Marshall kicked his ass for about 7 rounds then faded from beating on LaMott's head. LaMotta nearly had the gassed Marshall ready to go from exhaustion in the 10th round but Marshall held on and won the decision. Of coarse Jake bitched that he would have KO'ed him if it were a 15 round fight and that he wanted a 15 round rematch to be held in Detroit.
    Like you I see a simular fight between LaMotta and Tiger, but unlike you i see tiger winning two out of three, but it's hard to argue. I always lump LaMotta, Tiger, and Fullmer together, with Fullmer a slight #3 (he was done when Tiger beat him). The other two are a toss up. Tiger has more skills (obviously). One thing in Tiger's favor is that with his strength, he could possibly get some rest by tying jake up.

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Excellent comments regarding Tiger v LaMotta. One factor not mentioned is Jake's excellent left jab. When Tiger tried to fight inside it, Jake's left jab would become a factor in the fight. Tiger always showed up for a fight in shape, something LaMotta sometimes forgot to do. Hopefully in a bout this important Jake would train very hard. The only way the fight fails to go the distance is if Jake gets stopped on cuts.

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Tiger would be too strong for LaMotta I reckon.

    boxingnut,

    lamotta may have been the strongest middleweight of all time. stronger than tiger. so i don't understand what u are trying to imply


    - most of lamotta on film is when he was past his prime. you have to go back to the mid 40s to see the vintage lamotta.

  7. #7
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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmer Ray
    boxingnut,

    lamotta may have been the strongest middleweight of all time. stronger than tiger. so i don't understand what u are trying to imply


    - most of lamotta on film is when he was past his prime. you have to go back to the mid 40s to see the vintage lamotta.
    I am not trying to imply anything, you have your opinion I have mine, simple as that.

    Wasn't it Terry Downes who, when describing how strong Tiger was said, that when most fighters hit you it feels like you are shaken, when Tiger hits you it felt like being shook to the soles of your boots?

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    Boxingnut

    RE Downes comments, would that not be more of a Power description rather than a Strength description?

    And that said, Tiger was known more for his strength than his power as it is. Possibly that comment was made partly because Downes was a a relative boxing virgin when he squared of with Tiger.

    To the point of Lamotta's strength, I think given the well documented accounts of how strong Lamotta was, I think it is a very fair question to ask why one would think Tiger would out bull the bull.

    Wearing down a past his prime Fullmer (in their thrid bout) would be IMO a bit different than taking on a peak prime Lamotta. Not suggesting that Tiger beat jake is out of the question. But I agree that suggestion that Tiger would be too strong for Lamotta does merit a head scratching.

    Hawk

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    According to some old-timers, Jake LaMotta's boxing skills
    were very underrated. Keeping that in mind, it would be
    tough to choose between LaMotta and Dick Tiger.

    - Chuck Johnston

  10. #10
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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    A good boxer would usually pose problems for Tiger. During Tiger's title reign, Freddie Steele said "A good trombone man beats Tiger". As underrated as LaMotta's boxing skills are, I don't envisage him trying to outbox Tiger. I think it is more likely the two would meet head on.

    Tiger always faired a lot better against fighters who were strong and aggressive (like Fullmer for example).
    Everything I have seen, read and heard about Tiger suggest an inordinately strong and powerful fighter with incredible desire. LaMotta was like this too and this would be like two comets colliding. As Chuck says, it is a 50-50 fight but, in my opinion (and that's all it is) I pick Tiger.

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    Very Hard Battle

    Who would win the shoving match? I figure neither with both having their moments. LaMotta was a rock n' did not stop coming forward. His workrate would be the key to success.

    A question that needs to be answered is what affect would Tiger's power have on LaMotta? I don't believe he could KO the Bronx Bull, but if he can back him up, make him think twice he will be nullifying LaMotta to some extent who thrived on pressure.

    Further, if LaMotta is the one who is put on the back foot more he will lose a step greatly. Again, LaMotta would have to rely on his workrate to tire Tiger out, keep him busy slugging/pushing down the stretch.

    It's as 50/50 as 50/50 can be. Some split matches in a series for sure.

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    LaMotta was a much better boxer than given credit for...a hell of a match up but I favor LaMotta by being busier...

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    First of all I respect all the good points made here on this fantasy fight, and it would be a great matchup. In short, I pick Tiger in 10 out of 10 over Jake,
    with Jake never hurting him. I have some problems with what I heard and we have discussed regarding the Satterfiled fight. Anything is possible and I believe Satterfiled was very light for that fight. There are some strange stories that persist to this day making it a questionable win a la Pep v Lulu Perez, Jake v Billy Blackjack Fox, Graziano V Green by KO etc.

    I saw what Danny Nardico did to Jake and the punishment he took in some of the Irish Bob Murphy fights. These fantasy fights are supposed to be held on the night of each guy's best time in their life.

    Thus with Tiger at his zenith, when he was knocking down Carter, stopping Jose Monon Gonzalez, waging wars with Fullmer, beating Hank, dropping Rouse with a right hand, pounding on clever Giardello, stopping Rivero, Florentino Fernandez and beating Torres, I have to go with that plus what I know from boxing with Tiger extensively.

    I have thought about Dick Tiger versus the greats of the middleweight division for over 40 years now and have written about it often in various forums. It had been of great interest to me as Tiger was one of my favorite fighters and with good reason.

    As to Jake, I had been lucky enough to travel with Jake LaMotta at one time and have spoken to him at great length in person several times since the mid 60's. I used to visit him in Manhattan every day when he was a bouncer-greeter-doorman in a topless joint across from the only movie theater in Manhattan showing constant fight films as it's main attraction. I was in heaven between going to the fights and the topless joint afterward as a teenager, taking with Jake. My kind of boxing valhalla with the right kind of entertainment in between.

    I always felt his dangerous, forceful and explosive spirit beneath his coridal veneer, and this was in the 60's when he wasn't too old.

    In 1991 while filming Muhammad Ali, The Whole Story, we attended the Man of the Year Dinner for Jake held by the Rocky Marciano Foundation in Mass.

    I went to lunch with him, Howard Davis Jr, who I later refereed, Chico Vejar, Tony DeMarco, Bert Sugar, Muhammad Ali, George Chuvalo, Sean O'Grady, Vinny Paz, Sandy Saddler and Archie Moore. We had a private bus and limos and went to a children's hospital together and I have some great film footage of the whole thing.

    I stood next to Jake talked with him for hours and he very quickly abandoned his usual reportoir of snappy jokes, Sugar Ray quips and we got down very quickly to some real boxing talk when he realized how serious I was about knowing some things.

    Like Rocky Alkazoff says when you have a poweful presence in front of you, "The man was a force."

    Now gents, I know who Jake Lamotta is and who he handled in the day.
    His bouts with Ray Robinson are incredible although in one bout Ray weighed 144 and Jake had at least a 16 lb advantage. His combination output was energetic and his hooking and hooking and hooking with that short left of his in a manner like Tony Galento would use (Because of Galento's total absence of any kind of right hand) served him well on many an occassion such as the explosive finish against Laurent Dauthille.

    His arduous and physically damaging wins and losses to Irish Bob Murphy a big banger were seen by me and I have come to some conclusions long ago from what I see, not just what I read.

    Jake was strong, strong and sturdy in the legs, but his legs were not big. For years I heard how strong he was as a middleweight, yet the pictures and films show very tiny calves, strong but not huge thighs, very, very average arms, almost underdeveloped in both the bicep and tricep.

    His sholders, delts, front, side and rear also below average, but with a deep barrel chest, powerful skull, much thicker than the average human being's,
    good neck but not as big or muscular as you would think, from him taking so much head punishment.

    Lastly, his will to win fueled by a scarred adolescence, low self image, and a variety of psychological problems that were his personal demons that served him when called upon.

    He had a better jab than given credit for and got better and better in the ring from fighting the best they could throw at him. His voluminous combinations were effective against certain physical types within a certain weight limit, and aside from the brief but not really successful foray into lightheavyweight jungles he flourished more as a middleweight with severe weight problems which constantly drained him.

    He was tough, mean and determined and had great courage. However he was not a one shot puncher, did not have any kind of powerful one shot right hand, nor a one shot left hook which took guys out early.

    His win over Cerdan was legit yet marred slightly by the claim of shoulder injury in the first round by Marcel. He beat a lot of good guys and had much more ring savvy than given credit for to be sure.

    Tiger, was the most powerful 5'8" middleweight of all times. Stronger than Walker, LaMotta, Fullmer, Cerdan, Ketchel, anyone. Look at the pictures, look at the legs, chest, arms, back, shoulders. Case closed. Pictures and films do not lie.

    Yes Dorothy, there is many kinds of physical strengths. Muscular, bone structure, ligament and tendon strength, quality muslce, useless muslce, explosive fast twitch, endurance slow twitch fiber, bone strength ad infinitum.

    Dick Tiger had it all and he was the King of the shootouts. You came to fight him, trade with him, bull him, close with him I do not care how strong your head, cabesa, haid, chin, neck was, you are going to get busted up and he is not.

    Did you ever see him cut, bruised, or even mussed up a little bit after his wins over Carter, Hank, Fernandez, and Fullmer? Not one bruise. Not even a bead of sweat on his brow. He took such shots from those guys, I have the fims, and still cannot believe it to this day.

    At middleweight he could brawl, set you up, in fight, body bang, and stop you with either hand. His only fault was he took no easy fights to pad his KO record. He was fighting the toughest guys in the world and beating them up so badly while doing it. Hardest and heaviest left hook I ever saw at 160 until he started slowing down from cancer.

    At middleweight, Dick Tiger all the way. Jake would come in like he alwasys did, like Fullmer did, like Hank did, like Fernandez did and like Jose Gonzalez did and like Carter tried to do, standing in front of him, weaving going to the body. Tiger would be right there with him unhurt from anything thrown by Jake.

    Jake had only a couple of places to go on the chess board, to the head and to the body. There isn't one punch or combinations of punches he could throw to even remotely stagger or bother Tiger.

    Yet while attempting to do to Tiger what he tried to do to 144lb Ray Robinson and later 158lb Robinson, he would not be just jabbed to pieces like Ray did in the St. Valentine's massacre, he would be met with heavy artillery which would not knock down Jake on his best night, but woud bust him up very badly in the body and face.

    Tiger a far superior and seasoned athlete in superb condition with both hands, centered mind, head screwed on straight, boundless determination and mindset to win and not lose against an angry kind of guy, rock hard head but no big punches, limited upper body strength with sturdy legs, boxing guile as far as getting angles and combos off, but not with the kind of power to deal with Tiger at close range.

    Fullmer tried this and got the natural dog shit pounded out of him 3 times in 15 rounds, 15 round draw(Which robbed Tiger) and then tko's in the rubber match.

    Tiger, too skilled, too strong, chin one of the best save for flash knockdown with Griff, and Bob Foster in another division, with a much harder punch in both hands and a much stronger body, wins this much easier than expected.

    A determined LaMotta in the fight but not doing any damage whatsoever and taking a pounding and beating to the head and body with Tiger winning most every round by being in better natural shape at 160 than a guy coming down from 180 killing himself in the steamroom and at the dinner table.

    best,
    Ron

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Ron Lipton
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    First of all I respect all the good points made here on this fantasy fight, and it would be a great matchup. In short, I pick Tiger in 10 out of 10 over Jake,
    with Jake never hurting him. I have some problems with what I heard and we have discussed regarding the Satterfiled fight. Anything is possible and I believe Satterfiled was very light for that fight. There are some strange stories that persist to this day making it a questionable win a la Pep v Lulu Perez, Jake v Billy Blackjack Fox, Graziano V Green by KO etc.

    I saw what Danny Nardico did to Jake and the punishment he took in some of the Irish Bob Murphy fights. These fantasy fights are supposed to be held on the night of each guy's best time in their life.

    Thus with Tiger at his zenith, when he was knocking down Carter, stopping Jose Monon Gonzalez, waging wars with Fullmer, beating Hank, dropping Rouse with a right hand, pounding on clever Giardello, stopping Rivero, Florentino Fernandez and beating Torres, I have to go with that plus what I know from boxing with Tiger extensively.

    I have thought about Dick Tiger versus the greats of the middleweight division for over 40 years now and have written about it often in various forums. It had been of great interest to me as Tiger was one of my favorite fighters and with good reason.

    As to Jake, I had been lucky enough to travel with Jake LaMotta at one time and have spoken to him at great length in person several times since the mid 60's. I used to visit him in Manhattan every day when he was a bouncer-greeter-doorman in a topless joint across from the only movie theater in Manhattan showing constant fight films as it's main attraction. I was in heaven between going to the fights and the topless joint afterward as a teenager, taking with Jake. My kind of boxing valhalla with the right kind of entertainment in between.

    I always felt his dangerous, forceful and explosive spirit beneath his coridal veneer, and this was in the 60's when he wasn't too old.

    In 1991 while filming Muhammad Ali, The Whole Story, we attended the Man of the Year Dinner for Jake held by the Rocky Marciano Foundation in Mass.

    I went to lunch with him, Howard Davis Jr, who I later refereed, Chico Vejar, Tony DeMarco, Bert Sugar, Muhammad Ali, George Chuvalo, Sean O'Grady, Vinny Paz, Sandy Saddler and Archie Moore. We had a private bus and limos and went to a children's hospital together and I have some great film footage of the whole thing.

    I stood next to Jake talked with him for hours and he very quickly abandoned his usual reportoir of snappy jokes, Sugar Ray quips and we got down very quickly to some real boxing talk when he realized how serious I was about knowing some things.

    Like Rocky Alkazoff says when you have a poweful presence in front of you, "The man was a force."

    Now gents, I know who Jake Lamotta is and who he handled in the day.
    His bouts with Ray Robinson are incredible although in one bout Ray weighed 144 and Jake had at least a 16 lb advantage. His combination output was energetic and his hooking and hooking and hooking with that short left of his in a manner like Tony Galento would use (Because of Galento's total absence of any kind of right hand) served him well on many an occassion such as the explosive finish against Laurent Dauthille.

    His arduous and physically damaging wins and losses to Irish Bob Murphy a big banger were seen by me and I have come to some conclusions long ago from what I see, not just what I read.

    Jake was strong, strong and sturdy in the legs, but his legs were not big. For years I heard how strong he was as a middleweight, yet the pictures and films show very tiny calves, strong but not huge thighs, very, very average arms, almost underdeveloped in both the bicep and tricep.

    His sholders, delts, front, side and rear also below average, but with a deep barrel chest, powerful skull, much thicker than the average human being's,
    good neck but not as big or muscular as you would think, from him taking so much head punishment.

    Lastly, his will to win fueled by a scarred adolescence, low self image, and a variety of psychological problems that were his personal demons that served him when called upon.

    He had a better jab than given credit for and got better and better in the ring from fighting the best they could throw at him. His voluminous combinations were effective against certain physical types within a certain weight limit, and aside from the brief but not really successful foray into lightheavyweight jungles he flourished more as a middleweight with severe weight problems which constantly drained him.

    He was tough, mean and determined and had great courage. However he was not a one shot puncher, did not have any kind of powerful one shot right hand, nor a one shot left hook which took guys out early.

    His win over Cerdan was legit yet marred slightly by the claim of shoulder injury in the first round by Marcel. He beat a lot of good guys and had much more ring savvy than given credit for to be sure.

    Tiger, was the most powerful 5'8" middleweight of all times. Stronger than Walker, LaMotta, Fullmer, Cerdan, Ketchel, anyone. Look at the pictures, look at the legs, chest, arms, back, shoulders. Case closed. Pictures and films do not lie.

    Yes Dorothy, there is many kinds of physical strengths. Muscular, bone structure, ligament and tendon strength, quality muslce, useless muslce, explosive fast twitch, endurance slow twitch fiber, bone strength ad infinitum.

    Dick Tiger had it all and he was the King of the shootouts. You came to fight him, trade with him, bull him, close with him I do not care how strong your head, cabesa, haid, chin, neck was, you are going to get busted up and he is not.

    Did you ever see him cut, bruised, or even mussed up a little bit after his wins over Carter, Hank, Fernandez, and Fullmer? Not one bruise. Not even a bead of sweat on his brow. He took such shots from those guys, I have the fims, and still cannot believe it to this day.

    At middleweight he could brawl, set you up, in fight, body bang, and stop you with either hand. His only fault was he took no easy fights to pad his KO record. He was fighting the toughest guys in the world and beating them up so badly while doing it. Hardest and heaviest left hook I ever saw at 160 until he started slowing down from cancer.

    At middleweight, Dick Tiger all the way. Jake would come in like he alwasys did, like Fullmer did, like Hank did, like Fernandez did and like Jose Gonzalez did and like Carter tried to do, standing in front of him, weaving going to the body. Tiger would be right there with him unhurt from anything thrown by Jake.

    Jake had only a couple of places to go on the chess board, to the head and to the body. There isn't one punch or combinations of punches he could throw to even remotely stagger or bother Tiger.

    Yet while attempting to do to Tiger what he tried to do to 144lb Ray Robinson and later 158lb Robinson, he would not be just jabbed to pieces like Ray did in the St. Valentine's massacre, he would be met with heavy artillery which would not knock down Jake on his best night, but woud bust him up very badly in the body and face.

    Tiger a far superior and seasoned athlete in superb condition with both hands, centered mind, head screwed on straight, boundless determination and mindset to win and not lose against an angry kind of guy, rock hard head but no big punches, limited upper body strength with sturdy legs, boxing guile as far as getting angles and combos off, but not with the kind of power to deal with Tiger at close range.

    Fullmer tried this and got the natural dog shit pounded out of him 3 times in 15 rounds, 15 round draw(Which robbed Tiger) and then tko's in the rubber match.

    Tiger, too skilled, too strong, chin one of the best save for flash knockdown with Griff, and Bob Foster in another division, with a much harder punch in both hands and a much stronger body, wins this much easier than expected.

    A determined LaMotta in the fight but not doing any damage whatsoever and taking a pounding and beating to the head and body with Tiger winning most every round by being in better natural shape at 160 than a guy coming down from 180 killing himself in the steamroom and at the dinner table.

    best,
    Ron

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Ron Lipton
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    Join Date: Mar 2006
    Location: New York Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    First of all I respect all the good points made here on this fantasy fight, and it would be a great matchup. In short, I pick Tiger in 10 out of 10 over Jake,
    with Jake never hurting him. I have some problems with what I heard and we have discussed regarding the Satterfiled fight. Anything is possible and I believe Satterfiled was very light for that fight. There are some strange stories that persist to this day making it a questionable win a la Pep v Lulu Perez, Jake v Billy Blackjack Fox, Graziano V Green by KO etc.

    I saw what Danny Nardico did to Jake and the punishment he took in some of the Irish Bob Murphy fights. These fantasy fights are supposed to be held on the night of each guy's best time in their life.

    Thus with Tiger at his zenith, when he was knocking down Carter, stopping Jose Monon Gonzalez, waging wars with Fullmer, beating Hank, dropping Rouse with a right hand, pounding on clever Giardello, stopping Rivero, Florentino Fernandez and beating Torres, I have to go with that plus what I know from boxing with Tiger extensively.

    I have thought about Dick Tiger versus the greats of the middleweight division for over 40 years now and have written about it often in various forums. It had been of great interest to me as Tiger was one of my favorite fighters and with good reason.

    As to Jake, I had been lucky enough to travel with Jake LaMotta at one time and have spoken to him at great length in person several times since the mid 60's. I used to visit him in Manhattan every day when he was a bouncer-greeter-doorman in a topless joint across from the only movie theater in Manhattan showing constant fight films as it's main attraction. I was in heaven between going to the fights and the topless joint afterward as a teenager, taking with Jake. My kind of boxing valhalla with the right kind of entertainment in between.

    I always felt his dangerous, forceful and explosive spirit beneath his coridal veneer, and this was in the 60's when he wasn't too old.

    In 1991 while filming Muhammad Ali, The Whole Story, we attended the Man of the Year Dinner for Jake held by the Rocky Marciano Foundation in Mass.

    I went to lunch with him, Howard Davis Jr, who I later refereed, Chico Vejar, Tony DeMarco, Bert Sugar, Muhammad Ali, George Chuvalo, Sean O'Grady, Vinny Paz, Sandy Saddler and Archie Moore. We had a private bus and limos and went to a children's hospital together and I have some great film footage of the whole thing.

    I stood next to Jake talked with him for hours and he very quickly abandoned his usual reportoir of snappy jokes, Sugar Ray quips and we got down very quickly to some real boxing talk when he realized how serious I was about knowing some things.

    Like Rocky Alkazoff says when you have a poweful presence in front of you, "The man was a force."

    Now gents, I know who Jake Lamotta is and who he handled in the day.
    His bouts with Ray Robinson are incredible although in one bout Ray weighed 144 and Jake had at least a 16 lb advantage. His combination output was energetic and his hooking and hooking and hooking with that short left of his in a manner like Tony Galento would use (Because of Galento's total absence of any kind of right hand) served him well on many an occassion such as the explosive finish against Laurent Dauthille.

    His arduous and physically damaging wins and losses to Irish Bob Murphy a big banger were seen by me and I have come to some conclusions long ago from what I see, not just what I read.

    Jake was strong, strong and sturdy in the legs, but his legs were not big. For years I heard how strong he was as a middleweight, yet the pictures and films show very tiny calves, strong but not huge thighs, very, very average arms, almost underdeveloped in both the bicep and tricep.

    His sholders, delts, front, side and rear also below average, but with a deep barrel chest, powerful skull, much thicker than the average human being's,
    good neck but not as big or muscular as you would think, from him taking so much head punishment.

    Lastly, his will to win fueled by a scarred adolescence, low self image, and a variety of psychological problems that were his personal demons that served him when called upon.

    He had a better jab than given credit for and got better and better in the ring from fighting the best they could throw at him. His voluminous combinations were effective against certain physical types within a certain weight limit, and aside from the brief but not really successful foray into lightheavyweight jungles he flourished more as a middleweight with severe weight problems which constantly drained him.

    He was tough, mean and determined and had great courage. However he was not a one shot puncher, did not have any kind of powerful one shot right hand, nor a one shot left hook which took guys out early.

    His win over Cerdan was legit yet marred slightly by the claim of shoulder injury in the first round by Marcel. He beat a lot of good guys and had much more ring savvy than given credit for to be sure.

    Tiger, was the most powerful 5'8" middleweight of all times. Stronger than Walker, LaMotta, Fullmer, Cerdan, Ketchel, anyone. Look at the pictures, look at the legs, chest, arms, back, shoulders. Case closed. Pictures and films do not lie.

    Yes Dorothy, there is many kinds of physical strengths. Muscular, bone structure, ligament and tendon strength, quality muslce, useless muslce, explosive fast twitch, endurance slow twitch fiber, bone strength ad infinitum.

    Dick Tiger had it all and he was the King of the shootouts. You came to fight him, trade with him, bull him, close with him I do not care how strong your head, cabesa, haid, chin, neck was, you are going to get busted up and he is not.

    Did you ever see him cut, bruised, or even mussed up a little bit after his wins over Carter, Hank, Fernandez, and Fullmer? Not one bruise. Not even a bead of sweat on his brow. He took such shots from those guys, I have the fims, and still cannot believe it to this day.

    At middleweight he could brawl, set you up, in fight, body bang, and stop you with either hand. His only fault was he took no easy fights to pad his KO record. He was fighting the toughest guys in the world and beating them up so badly while doing it. Hardest and heaviest left hook I ever saw at 160 until he started slowing down from cancer.

    At middleweight, Dick Tiger all the way. Jake would come in like he alwasys did, like Fullmer did, like Hank did, like Fernandez did and like Jose Gonzalez did and like Carter tried to do, standing in front of him, weaving going to the body. Tiger would be right there with him unhurt from anything thrown by Jake.

    Jake had only a couple of places to go on the chess board, to the head and to the body. There isn't one punch or combinations of punches he could throw to even remotely stagger or bother Tiger.

    Yet while attempting to do to Tiger what he tried to do to 144lb Ray Robinson and later 158lb Robinson, he would not be just jabbed to pieces like Ray did in the St. Valentine's massacre, he would be met with heavy artillery which would not knock down Jake on his best night, but woud bust him up very badly in the body and face.

    Tiger a far superior and seasoned athlete in superb condition with both hands, centered mind, head screwed on straight, boundless determination and mindset to win and not lose against an angry kind of guy, rock hard head but no big punches, limited upper body strength with sturdy legs, boxing guile as far as getting angles and combos off, but not with the kind of power to deal with Tiger at close range.

    Fullmer tried this and got the natural dog shit pounded out of him 3 times in 15 rounds, 15 round draw(Which robbed Tiger) and then tko's in the rubber match.

    Tiger, too skilled, too strong, chin one of the best save for flash knockdown with Griff, and Bob Foster in another division, with a much harder punch in both hands and a much stronger body, wins this much easier than expected.

    A determined LaMotta in the fight but not doing any damage whatsoever and taking a pounding and beating to the head and body with Tiger winning most every round by being in better natural shape at 160 than a guy coming down from 180 killing himself in the steamroom and at the dinner table.

    best,
    Ron

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Ron, that was a great post! Could you tell me who you think would beat Tiger at middleweight? And what about Lamotta v Fulmer, who wins that one?

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Nice call, Ron. Tiger by decision for me too in that kind of fight. It was the smart cookies like Giardello and Joey Archer who gave Dick problems.

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Lamotta V Fullmer at their best could go either way by decision,
    Neither one would stop the other unless it was by cuts.

    I would lean toward Lamotta by decision with Fullmer's clubbing tactics not damaging Jake, although Fullmer hit a lot harder than most experts credit him for. His wild three stooges overhand right put out Joe Micelli for a 100 count, and he knocked Robinson out of the ring, while also stopping the rugged Basilio twice. Gene could take it all night long as evidenced in his fights with Tiger, Robinson, Lausse, Greaves, and Giardello. Butts, elbows, rabbit punches, low blows, Gene gave his opponents samples of everything and anything. A wild caveman in there.

    Lamotta, would pay him back in his own coin like Giardello did. You have to see that Fullmer v Giardello bout, which I have. Giardello was the toughest guy who ever laced em up, bar none.

    Anyway Jake outhustles Gene in a gruelling brawl which we all would expect using more ring savy and a quicker and shorter left hook effectively, while not being pushed off balance or hurt with head shots.

    As to who I would pick VS the Tiger at 160lbs, I would say, Ray Robinson, then probably Monzon because of his height and mobility using the long jab,
    and 6-5 pick em with Hagler on the bike, if he elected to fight, then I pick Tiger in an upset, but Marvin would fight him like he did Briscoe, moving, sticking and boxing all night.

    Zale would be a great fight but I lean toward the Tiger. Greb would be a problem but do not underestimate the strength of Tiger in the early days, yet Greb was a legend capable of anything in there, but we have no film.
    The film I saw was not too impressive with that old style, he was warming up and exercising, it was akin to footage of Babe Ruth running the bases at high speed.

    All the rest of the killers and monsters and Lions at 160 are all great and capable of providing great fights. They just don't come any more rugged, stronger, skilled, faster and hit harder than Carter, Fernandez, Gonzalez, Fullmer, Benvenuti, Torres, Hank, all of whom Tiger went through like a knife through butter.

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Lamotta V Fullmer at their best could go either way by decision,
    Neither one would stop the other unless it was by cuts.

    I would lean toward Lamotta by decision with Fullmer's clubbing tactics not damaging Jake, although Fullmer hit a lot harder than most experts credit him for. His wild three stooges overhand right put out Joe Micelli for a 100 count, and he knocked Robinson out of the ring, while also stopping the rugged Basilio twice. Gene could take it all night long as evidenced in his fights with Tiger, Robinson, Lausse, Greaves, and Giardello. Butts, elbows, rabbit punches, low blows, Gene gave his opponents samples of everything and anything. A wild caveman in there.

    Lamotta, would pay him back in his own coin like Giardello did. You have to see that Fullmer v Giardello bout, which I have. Giardello was the toughest guy who ever laced em up, bar none.

    Anyway Jake outhustles Gene in a gruelling brawl which we all would expect using more ring savy and a quicker and shorter left hook effectively, while not being pushed off balance or hurt with head shots.

    As to who I would pick VS the Tiger at 160lbs, I would say, Ray Robinson, then probably Monzon because of his height and mobility using the long jab,
    and 6-5 pick em with Hagler on the bike, if he elected to fight, then I pick Tiger in an upset, but Marvin would fight him like he did Briscoe, moving, sticking and boxing all night.

    Zale would be a great fight but I lean toward the Tiger. Greb would be a problem but do not underestimate the strength of Tiger in the early days, yet Greb was a legend capable of anything in there, but we have no film.
    The film I saw was not too impressive with that old style, he was warming up and exercising, it was akin to footage of Babe Ruth running the bases at high speed.

    All the rest of the killers and monsters and Lions at 160 are all great and capable of providing great fights. They just don't come any more rugged, stronger, skilled, faster and hit harder than Carter, Fernandez, Gonzalez, Fullmer, Benvenuti, Torres, Hank, all of whom Tiger went through like a knife through butter.

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    Re: Dick Tiger vs Jake Lamotta.

    Tiger gets this for me... probably one of the toughest 160 champs ever and also one of the most underrated generally.... he would have just been too strong for Jake and win by clear bruising decision....

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