Maybe there's something to BHOP story. http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/bern...s-update-98861
Maybe there's something to BHOP story. http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/bern...s-update-98861
When things go his way Hopkins is a bad ass warrior, when things dont go his own way he pulls out the victim routine, just like Tyson used to do.
Regardless of the circumstances, at this point the injury appears legit:
Bernard Hopkins Medical Update: From a released statement: Bernard Hopkins has been released from the California Hospital Medical Center in Los Angeles after being x-rayed and examined by Dr. Sam Thurber, MD who diagnosed Hopkins with a separation of the acromioclavicular (A-C) joint which connects the collar bone and shoulder blade.
Boxing fans are ridiculous. So Bernard 'faked' an injury after a round of fighting? Give me a break. The guy is a professional who will milk fouls every now and then but the guy isn't a quitter and while Dawson had a good first round ,so did Pascal in his two fights with Hopkins . . the guy ALWAYS loses the initial rounds in his older years save the Calzaghe fight. This should be an NC plain and simple.
Sham of a fight. But, I cannot see how anyone can be certain that Bhop
was faking. It's not at all possible to know this from just looking at the video.
Is it being suggested that Dr. Thurber is in on an injury hoax?
What a joke and yet another bad blow to boxing.
It was obvious Dawson was sending a message. That was not just a shove, it was a toss.
I can't blame Dawson for trying to show who was boss in there but this should have been a NC or a DQ win for BHop.
Dawson knows how much power he put into that "shove."
I'm sure he didn't intend to end the fight with that but the extra effort was pretty clear in my eyes.
As far as the actual 5 minutes of fight we saw at the point of the tackle/toss, Dawson seemed to have BHop a little uncomfortable in there.
BHop immediately resorted to the style that made him virtually unwatchable for so many years.
I'm not sure if it was because of what Dawson was doing or because BHop's plan was to frustrate Dawson and make him unravel but either way, the ending of the fight showed that BHop's tactics were already showing their impact on Chad.
Endings like this don't get much worse but I think it saved the public from a really ugly fight.
Dawson should have been disqualified or it should have been ruled a no contest. Referee is an incompetent idiot. You can't lose on a TKO if you were never even legally punched. Hopkins threw a right, Dawson ducked under him and then picked Bernard up and threw him to the ground. It was a foul, plain and simple. This is boxing, not football.
Random thoughts on a blown 50 bucks:
Yes, it was only less than 2 rounds, but all the talk by Dawson of overwhelming aging Hopkins with volume punching and speed (70 to 80 punches a round!) went nowhere - zip - nada - nowhere to be seen. Dawson was in no time - hell, there wasn't much of that - fighting Hopkins (boring) pace. There was no evidence it wouldn't have continued . . . .
When the 3 ringside commentators weren't playing their 3 stooges routine, they made a few insightful remarks. In particular the one by Lampley that people tune in (and pay) to watch Hopkins, not because he's still an entertaining prizefighter, but to see if he can yet again get over a much younger opponent. (Emphasis on get over)
Worse consensus agreement of the threesome - first round of DeMarco/Lirnare's bout, when they rhapsodized how Linares extraordinary balance was the greatest they had ever seen. Robinsonesque! Der Max cried out in astonishment. All of which was typically forgotten a few rounds later.
Most distasteful memento of the evening - Bad Chad Dawson thumping his chest and crying out how he had destroyed Hopkins. May I make a Public Service announcement? Any elderly citizens in the immediate vicinity of Mr. Dawson, who might trip and fall on a poorly maintained sidewalk, do not take it personally if Mr. Dawson stands over you, with his arms held high in the sky, proclaiming victory. Apparently he cannot help himself.
I was embarrassed for him. His reaction showed that he was scared to fight Hopkins to begin with in my eyes.
He was so relieved that he was overcome with joy and celebration, I thought he was going to start dancing next.
In fact this was probably the most emotional and expressive that I have ever seen Dawson.
Patiently waiting for the Ice Man to weigh in here with his take.
For what it's worth, a few years ago I had a slip-and-fall on a slick floor in my parking garage. I landed on my elbow. I injured my shoulder, and it has never been right since then.
With that said, I think that Dawson simply fouled Hopkins harder than Hopkins had fouled him.
Dawson looked remarkably comfortable in there for the nearly 2 rounds it lasted. The ending,
I watched this last night...
Can someone tell me how this is "world championship" calibre boxing in any way from the result, to the officiating to the belief that a victory had been earned in any way?
How is it anything other than a NC?
Holy moly. Dawson's act afterward was stupefying. Dawson acted like he got away with something and couldn't believe it so why not posture like that something wrong he did never happened.
But the real problem and absuridty is the call that he 'won'. I cannot figure out how the ref and the commission arrived at that ruling. I can't believe it. I am still amazed.
Hopkins-Dawson Photo Gallery
Does anybody have the CompuBox stats (or the equivalent from another source) on the fight, such as it was?
the first point here is should it have been a NC or DQ
the next point is, not so much doubting whether Hopkins may or may not have been hurt,
BUT did Bernard see this as an opportunity to get a DQ victory???
I say he did, and I believe he might have got hurt, people get hurt all the time when it doesn't look that bad, But was he trying to cheat out a win?
I say yes he _ucken well was!!!
I think there was definitely a chance he thought he would get the victory by milking the fall.
From what he said to the ref regarding continuing was a little suspicious to me.
IMO he seemed pretty surprised that he wasn't handed the DQ win he was expecting.
I liked how Dawson was looking so far in the fight. He was crowding BHop and keeping the jab in his face.
It's a shame on his part and for Scully that this fight didn't continue even though it looked that BHop was content to stink the place out.
It would have been nice to see Scully get some credit out of a Dawson victory in the aftermath of all the doubt with the trainer change.
I am not good at guessing at those sort of things Mr. Glen. I do know that Dawson shouldered him to the canvas. What was going on in Bernard Hopkins' brain after that is hard to say.
By Steve Kim
On Sunday afternoon, Pat Russell was heading up to Santa Barbara to celebrate his 21st anniversary with his wife. The night before, he was the third man in the ring in what was just the latest HBO Pay-Per-View snafu, as Chad Dawson won the WBC light heavyweight title by stopping Bernard Hopkins in rather dubious fashion. The 46-year old Hopkins was essentially lifted off his feet by Dawson near the end of the second round and in the subsequent fall, he suffered a separated right shoulder.
Just when you thought you had seen it all...
“That was a roughhouse fight, two tough guys, very experienced. They know exactly what they were doing. They were trying to gain angles at all times so they could throw shots,” recalled Russell, while on the road. “And that happened in the first round. The second round, just previous to this particular incident happening, if you notice - and again, I have not seen any replays or whatever else, so I’m just telling you what my recollection is and being in the middle at the time- Dawson got pushed down because Bernard came in, I think, to throw a body shot and Dawson got pushed down and he had a slip, very quickly, that was just prior to when this fight ended. I dusted off his gloves. I tried to prevent that stuff from happening.”
He continued, “Here’s how I see what happened: Dawson is coming in a little low, apparently to throw a body shot. I see Hopkins over the top of him, literally draped on top of him with one hand wrapped around. It appears to be on the far side on Dawson’s right side. I’m on the left side. I’m not seeing anything on the right side, other than I see him draped. Now, I didn’t see him land on his shoulder. I saw him land on his hip hard. That’s what I saw. So is that foul? No, what it is is roughhouse tactics and inadvertent contact in an awkward position and that’s what I called.”
Russell is a veteran referee and is universally respected by those in the sport. When you ask those in the business if they would trust him in a big fight, they will unanimously say yes. But in this particular occasion, many would disagree with his ruling. It seemed as though as Hopkins threw a right hand that Dawson slipped. Hopkins then smothered the left-hander and as Russell described it, was draped on Dawson (this smothering is a familiar technique of “The Executioner”) and it was at that point that Dawson seem to intentionally lift and catapult Hopkins to the canvas. It was a maneuver more suited for MMA than boxing but Russell’s judgment call was that no infraction was committed.
“I’ve got one set of eyes, my set of eyes,” he said. “You can have nine different camera angles. I can’t see any other side of what’s going on and what I saw was a guy who was in an inferior position at a disadvantage because a guy was draped over his back and he did what any human being would do- he tried to straighten up. If there’s something else that went on that side, well, OK, that’s why we have a process and we could certainly look at that. I think that’s what the issue was and I know people were very upset about that but you could not be upset about the fact that he could not continue because of an injury caused by inadvertent contact or a roughhouse fight.”
Many will disagree that what Dawson did was anything but “inadvertent” to which Russell counters, “If there’s a foul, you have to go back to the genesis of this thing, is a guy who is draped over the top of another guy- is that a foul? So we want to hyperventilate over all this stuff but at the end of the day, what it is is this: it’s incidental contact in a roughhouse fight.”
As Hopkins was deemed unfit to continue, because Russell did not call a foul, Dawson then became the winner by TKO. “That’s it,” confirmed Russell who added, “and the continuum of the story was [Hopkins] was in distress. He was obviously in pain. I immediately called time out. It was a doctor’s intervention. That’s a doctor’s issue. Candidly, all I can tell you is what I remember and what I remember is the doctor kept asking [Hopkins] and wanted to examine him and Bernard kept complaining that his shoulder was out of joint. And that’s what I heard, I don’t know if there was an examination.”
When Dr. Tony Hicks asked Hopkins if he could continue, Hopkins answered rather incredulously, “Yeah, with one arm!” as if to say, “Hell, no, I can’t go on.” Russell says, “It was a doctor’s intervention and in their continuing dialogue, I don’t think he ever examined him. I really don’t. I can’t tell you that.”
Later on, Dr. Sam Thurber at the California Hospital Medical Center diagnosed that Hopkins suffered a separation of the A-C (acromioclavicular) joint which connects the collar bone to the shoulder blade. Of course, perhaps based on Hopkins’, let’s say, checkered history inside the ring, this hasn’t silenced those who insist that he found the easy way out of what was looking like a very difficult fight.
“I’m not going to speculate about anyone’s physical condition. I’m going to believe the fighter. I’m going to believe the doctor and I’m going to believe the medical evidence. I’m not a doctor and if some guy’s complaining that he can’t continue a fight, I’m not going to let him continue with a fight,” said Russell. I’ve got to believe him. He knows his body and he’s in pain and I’m not going to cast aspersions upon any fighter on that. This is a tough business. They’re in that ring and they get to make that assessment on themselves. I’m not going to do that for them.”
HBO’s Larry Merchant says that boxing is the theater of the unexpected. It’s also the theater of the absurd. The night of October 15th at the Staples Center in Los Angeles was a lot of both.
“Who’d have come up with a scenario like this?” said Russell, laughing at the thought. “At the end of the day, we live in a glass house and I’m loath to throw rocks. There was a rhyme and reason for doing it. If in fact it is a foul and [Hopkins] cannot continue, then it’s a no-decision, OK? But if I don’t see a foul, how can I call a foul?”
Russell had a deep and illustrious history in law enforcement having spent 31 years in the San Diego District Attorney’s office. Geez, who would’ve thought patrolling a 20-by-20 patch of canvas would be more troublesome than looking over a whole city? The thought brings a chuckle to him. “Let’s just talk very candidly. These are two forces in dynamic action, OK? That’s exactly what’s going on. There’s going to be things going on in the ring that are unbelievable. It’s an awkward position. Think about it this way; if these guys would’ve got their feet tangled and they would’ve fallen down and sprained an ankle, what would the call have been then? If in fact, [Hopkins] would’ve draped on [Dawson] and he fell down to the ground and he was on him because he was on him low, we have to go back to the chicken and the egg argument somewhere down the line.
“These are roughhouse tactics,” Russell continued. “These guys are some of the best fighters ever- certainly you can say that about Hopkins- and I think Dawson is a terrific talent and they’re going to look for every deal where they can land a punch and not get struck. That’s the name of the game. So they did what they did and I think if this fight would’ve settled down without the injury, I think we would’ve solved it out and had a better resolution.”
You may have not liked the first edition of Dawson-Hopkins but guess what? If it were up to Hopkins and Golden Boy Promotions, we might see a second edition. When I asked Richard Schaefer if they would file a protest over this result, I received this email reply:
“Yes we file a protest and ask the California Commission to overturn the decision. This is not wrestling- it was a foul no question about it.
We will ask both the WBC and THE RING to keep Bernard as their champion.”
And there is a precedent for this in the Golden State. In the past few years, fights like James Toney-Hasim Rahman and Tim Bradley-Nate Campbell have had the original verdicts changed from TKOs to no-contest rulings.
There is also the chance that the WBC can call for an immediate rematch. For all the heat some are heaping on Russell (I assume mostly from those who bet on the fight), even if he would’ve called a foul on Hopkins, there was a very good likelihood of Dawson-Hopkins II taking place.
Many of you out there asked just how in the world was “Believe It or Not” a pay-per-view show. Well, it turns out that this was what is called a “Flip.” No, not a Homansky or a Wilson but a move where the network (in this case, HBO) who makes a deal with an agreed upon license fee has the option of putting it on pay-per-view.
A boxing insider explains it: "So basically, let’s say you and I made a contract for $3 million for a fight on HBO. I just owe the content holders $3 million and then I can do whatever I want with that fight for the revenue. I can off-set revenue, I can put it on air, I can do whatever I want.”
As for how the money is split, “If the domestic rights came in at a million dollars, then they get a million dollars against three- and it cost them $3 million to do it. If they get $4 million dollars, then they make a million bucks. On the upside, I assume, they probably work something out so they can get everyone to participate, because if not, they would just take their $3 million. So maybe they did some revenue sharing over their cost production, everything like that, marketing and such. And they had to agree to something on the undercard, what they did on the undercard.”
So in instances like this, would HBO have more leverage in forcing a better pay-per-view undercard?
“If I was HBO management, I’d say, ‘OK, guys, here’s a half-million dollars for the undercard, right? I get X-million dollars in marketing, expenses and all that kind of stuff, I’m flipping it, I’m in for $4 million. I get the first $4 million- or whatever it is- and then we’ll do some revenue share on the back end. That’s what I figured they did.”
I can’t lie; I had never heard of “The flip.” It’s not used often.
“No, it used to be done only in multi-fight agreements,” said the source. “The genesis of the flip is the multi-fight agreement because in the multi-fight agreement, they typically offer fighters two dates and that’s how it works.”
- I know boxing fans can be a cynical lot (and I don’t blame them, to be honest) but I think much of the derision leveled at Hopkins is not because of what took place this past weekend but really (his past, which started with his initial contest with Robert Allen way back in 1998- a fight I also covered) but other incidents like his exaggerated reaction to borderline low blows from Joe Calzaghe and his Fred Sanford-like reactions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stdi-1tIUhM) against Roy Jones last year. Honestly, I do think he was legitimately hurt against Dawson but maybe at this advanced age, he’s no longer that guy who can go on with one arm like he did against Antwun Echols back in 1999.
- Only two rounds were in the books between Hopkins and Dawson but I think it was as clear as day that Dawson was going to pose big problems for Hopkins all night with his speed, quickness and ability to move. Above all, Dawson looked like the bigger, more natural 175-pounder who controlled the center of the ring. Meanwhile, Hopkins looked very slow in comparison.
- OK, let’s say Dawson-Hopkins is overturned into a no-contest and a rematch is mandated, just who in the world will buy it this time around? The joke on Saturday night was that we should actually thank Russell for not subjecting the viewers to ten more rounds of this fight.
- Instead of replaying Dawson-Hopkins next Saturday night, is there any way that HBO can give us another viewing of Antonio DeMarco’s dramatic come-from-behind 11th round TKO of Jorge Linares for the WBC lightweight title? (The answer is: Of course not) Down big on all three scorecards, DeMarco just kept at it and stopped Linares in stunning fashion. Linares is a talented fighter but there just seems to be something missing. As for DeMarco, he overcame Linares’ skill with his own overwhelming will.
- As for how Hopkins was “TKO’d,” it’s happened before. I was reminded on Twitter of when Rene Jacquot lost to John Mugabi way back when the Frenchman sprained his ankle in the middle of their contest. More recently, you had Odlanier Solis who was unable to continue after blowing out his knee as a result of getting wobbled by Vitali Klitschko.
Just my opinion but I think Michael Perez might be the best East Coast-based prospect...Freddy Hernandez came up with a big win over Luis Collazo at the Staples Center this weekend...A crowd of over 8,300 was announced on Saturday night at the Staples Center but I wonder what percentage of those patrons actually paid full price for those tickets...The IBF has ordered an immediate rematch between cruiserweights Joan Pablo Hernandez and Steve Cunningham for their title, with the winner having to face Troy Ross within 120 days of the rematch...Tickets for Abner Mares-Joseph Agbeko, which takes place at the Honda Center on Dec. 3rd go on sale at Ticketmaster on Monday. They are really well priced at $150, $100, $50 and $25...OK, forget Dawson-Hopkins II; I really wanna see Jim “The Wolverine” Harbaugh against “The Motor City Coach” Jim Schwartz-- they could do it at the Silverdome...Doesn’t Clemson just have the look and feel of a team of destiny this season?...It’s really too bad Baylor isn’t good enough as a team to give RG3 a legitimate shot at the Heisman...The Dallas Cowboys are really an enigma. They are so close to being an elite team...I can be reached at firstname.lastname@example.org and I tweet at www.twitter.com/stevemaxboxing. We also have a Facebook fan page at www.facebook.com/MaxBoxing.
If this isn't overturned then California has to be amongst the worst commissions in boxing today. The idea that a guy can pick up his opponent and heave him to the canvas and win because of it is both laughable and maddening. If that is the case, why bother punching? Why not just use MMA rules and allow wrestling tactics? This is such a joke.
When guys lose because of injury, it isn't when the injury was directly caused by the foul actions of the other fighter. That is a huge distinction.
I beleive Dawson landed 7 of 55 punches and Hopkins landed 11 of 29 punches. very ugly fight with an even uglier ending.
Yet another fight leaving little to talk about outside of it's dubious nature, the question of who is to blame and what the correct ruling should have been. That appears to be as good as it gets these days.
Hopkins was quite simply trying on his usual spoiling tactics. Right over the top of Dawson's back, so much so as to allow his own right leg to lift off the canvas and compromise the security of his own balance from the outset. Dawson certainly gave him a reactionary shove off but I personally don't think that it screamed foul and the fact the Hopkins fell so completely was due in no small part to Hopkins own initial lift off.
There was an earlier joke on the thread referring to Dawson inexplicably gloating over a victory that resulted from Hopkins own, aged induced fragility. In literal terms, if that it is true, then Hopkins, by way of natural aging, was in a state of disrepair going into the fight and that is something that Dawson should not be held liable for. Maybe a freak injury that could happen to anyone but I'm guessing that perhaps 99 out of 100 young, fully abled boxers arise from such a fall unscathed.
With such an unseemly injury, one might speculate and suggest that age did finally catch up with Hopkins.
As to the official result. Almost couldn't care less. Change it to NE (Non-Event) and DQ boxing itself.
Stop trying to spin this. It wasn't just a mere slight push. Dawson crossed the line with what he did. He lifted Bernard off the canvas and threw/pushed him down ferociously such that Hopkins went down hard enough to dislocate his shoulder. Last time I checked you should not be able to win a fight on a foul. Otherwise, why not foul all the time if you can just foul, hurt the guy with your foul, and rely on the referee to rule in your favor via TKO? THis is boxing, not wrestling or MMA.
Last edited by apollack; 10-17-2011 at 09:45 PM.
No one is trying to spin anything.
Look at the video. As Crold stated, before anything else, Bernard has hoisted himself onto Dawson's back with his knee almost touching Dawson's chest - Bernard has already placed himself part way off the canvas. Is that entirely legal?
Yes, Dawson touches the leg for an instant but it's otherwise all shoulder. I would say that it is spin to suggest that Bernard didn't himself contribute in some measure to his own lack of footing and compromised balance.
Without what Bernard was trying on himself, that shove with the shoulder and momentary touch of the leg doesn't send him anywhere.
The King has no clothes. Hopkins was thrown to the canvas, Dawson did not like him leaning on him, he did grab his leg and threw him down. It is called roughhousing, wrestling or shoving a boxer to the canvas. It is impossible and ridiculous to even remotely suggest as Pat Russell did that it is not a foul.
If he did not see it like Joe Cortez did not see Floyd hit Ortiz then ask for a replay. It will never merit a TKO win and never should. It is a No Contest, no legal punch or punches caused the stoppage.
It was not a good call, all the smoke and mirror explanations mean nothing because the boxer did not fall to the canvas from an accumulation of legal punches, a low blow the ref did not see or a poison dart in the neck from an unseen assailant. He was lifted up and thrown down, shoved down, not as bad as Hamsho v Scipion but bad enough.
Ali leaned on a lot of guys too. Who cares who likes B-Hop or not. Based on what happened, the proper call would have been to call time then send Dawson to a neutral corner which was not done. Ask for the doctor to examine Hopkins. While that is being done Dawson has to remain in a neutral corner. 1 point deducted for throwing him to the deck if necessary for the record of the judges scorecards whether a NC or not, then decisively rule it a No Contest not a TKO.
Russell who is very politically connected there in San Diego DA's office or one of their favorite referees means nothing, in THIS fight it was a bad call. What does he mean he did not see a foul. Does he mean he did not see an Intentional foul? Yeah? Ok, but it still boils down to a boxer being lifted up thrown down and yes his leg was grabbed and up he went. Not Dawson's fault? I must be seeing things then. Leaning on an opponent does not give them the right to hurl you to the canvas and win a title on some bizarre referee mistake calling a no contest a TKO.
I am friends with people who are with Dawson, I would not give a shit if my brother was in Dawson's corner, or if Hopkins was wrong leaning on him. That is not the issue. The issue is the referee was rightly hustled out of that damn ring because his call was gross mistake and all his explanations are ridiculous and do not fly.
Bottom line, yeah Hopkins leaned on him then Dawson got pissed and threw him to the canvas. NO CONTEST injury caused by roughhousing, wrestling and shoving not a legal punch.
He is not the champion. Next fight why doesn't a boxer Judo flip Mayweather onto his head with Ogoshi a hip throw, and win by a TKO because someone like Russell did not see it. See what, what is there to see. This shit is so ridiculous it never fails to amaze me how little people at the fights as officials, commentators, Commissioners, corner men know nothing about boxing. The slightest controversy which is not even a controversy sends them all into hissy fits and mindless babbling, screaming, ranting and bullshit.
Guess what, this guy did not win any championship and all his cursing amounts to nothing. He is tough, he came to fight, he got pissed off and threw the guy down. He is lucky he wasn't DQ'd. A No Contest is and was the only answer. B-Hop, please retire before you really get hurt.