Pac-Marquez, Round By Round,Results & Discussion Nov.12/11

[The Welterweight Epitome]

Although a lot depends on where the two guys are respectively in their training. Like when Floyd was 'beat up' by Spadafora, Floyd was out of shape and gassed, no wonder you lose a sparring session when you aren't hitting your peak and the other guys is.

That said, I have no idea where these two guys were respectively at the time of the sparring.

The Ghost is ever improving though and I can see him beating most of the top guys from 140-135. I think he would be the only guy at 135 who could give Marquez a real run.

[diggity]

I thought I remember Pac smiling on his way into the ring, so I don't know what Roach is talking about there.
I did notice that Pac seemed very short and not as personable as he usually is after a fight.
He was clearly not happy with how the night transpired based on that observation alone IMO.
He seemed defensive as if he lost really.

[The Welterweight Epitome]

What do you guys think of Marquez vs Morales at 140 next? I hear Amir Khan talked about fighting Marquez as he was commentating for the Brittish broadcast of the fight. I really hope Khan doesn't get a blown up, old warrior like Marquez or even Morales, like he did with Barrera.

[diggity]

JMM/Morales would be a fun fight but one I wouldn't want to see Morales take honestly.

[prototypeofamodernmadman]

JMM vs Morales would definitely be a very fan friendly fight, like Diggity says, Morales would absorb frightful amounts of punishment from the extremely accurate JMM, another thing it has in making it fan friendly is JMM will probably fight more recklessly than he did against Pac so there would be a lot more back and forth.

Most people will say that the speed difference is too great for JMM to be effective against Khan but I only see that being a factor in the early rounds, to use a saying from Adam Pollock, if "slow as molasses" Maidana could catch up with Khan in the later rounds and inflict massive damage, JMM has to be able to do better, JMM would also be the best fighter that Khan has faced to date,

Barrera was a ton more shop worn and did not carry the extra weight nearly as well as Marquez.

[diggity]

I don't like the JMM fight for Khan right now at all.
I can't imagine Roach is too keen on that fight after seeing what Pac went through.

[prototypeofamodernmadman]

Well, it could be a case of a trainer trying to exact revenge against Marquez with Khan, he could say, well, I have much younger, taller, longer armed and naturally bigger fighter than Pac to throw in with Marquez,

more than likely, Roach is petrified of Marquez and will keep any of his fighters a million miles away, he hasn't been able to solve the style.

[The Welterweight Epitome]

JMM vs Morales would definitely be a very fan friendly fight, like Diggity says, Morales would absorb frightful amounts of punishment from the extremely accurate JMM, another thing it has in making it fan friendly is JMM will probably fight more recklessly than he did against Pac so there would be a lot more back and forth.

Most people will say that the speed difference is too great for JMM to be effective against Khan but I only see that being a factor in the early rounds, to use a saying from Adam Pollock, if "slow as molasses" Maidana could catch up with Khan in the later rounds and inflict massive damage, JMM has to be able to do better, JMM would also be the best fighter that Khan has faced to date,

Barrera was a ton more shop worn and did not carry the extra weight nearly as well as Marquez.

Yeh you pretty much summed up my thoughts on Marquez vs Morales or Khan. I think Khan would take the first few easily against Marquez, but with his accuracy and power, if Madaina could catch Khan, I could see Marquez belting him out late much like he did against Casamayor.

I think Morales would put up a good fight though, definately would be a lot of back and forth and would be good just to see these two step in the ring together, the only two of the great Mexican trio of this generation that have not fought.

Anyways, back to my Ring Dec edition, there is a stack on Marquez in this latest edition!

[prototypeofamodernmadman]

Wow, you actually thought that I had some good points Epitome! We've come so far from the Donaire - Narvaez thread. Well, I'll admit that I went a little overboard on the Lightweight down to Bantam assessment of Donaire, it wasn't literal, I was just exaggerating a little and trying to make the point that Donaire is a monster and much bigger than all of his opponents.

About that Ring December issue, do you have a subscription? I used to buy it every month form the newsstand until they started charging, what is it? 8.99 an issue? That's ridiculous.

[The Welterweight Epitome]

Wow, you actually thought that I had some good points Epitome!

About that Ring December issue, do you have a subscription? I used to buy it every month form the newsstand until they started charging, what is it? 8.99 an issue? That's ridiculous.

hehehe, good points indeed proto! All good!

Yeh, I'm lucky enough that the Mrs buys my yearly subscriptions for me! Something about the smell of a new magazine that brings back childhood boxing memories. It's like a fix when I get it in the mail!

[walshb]

I don't like the JMM fight for Khan right now at all.
I can't imagine Roach is too keen on that fight after seeing what Pac went through.

What did Pac go through? It was a horrible fight with little action.

Juan still to me looked like a worn fighter.

I just don't see anything in the fight to indicate that Khan
should be worried or could lose to JMM.

Khan is too big, fast and all around busy for an aged JMM.

Khan would not have the same issues with JMM that Manny seems to have.

Khan's size, speed, reach and youth would see this as pretty one sided.

Anyone see Khan and Timothy Bradley "meeting" each other at the MGM grand?

The size difference looked quite apparent. Bradley passed Khan by, they glared at each other
for a moment and Bradley moved on. Khan dwarfed him. Now, could have been the camera angle, but
it still looked a good size difference.

[The Welterweight Epitome]

Just re-watched the fight and scored it for JMM again by 3 (had him by 4 the first time).

Also re-watched their first fight, which I previously had JMM edging, but this time had it a draw.

Will have to re-watch their 2nd fight, but previously I had Manny just edging it.

So it's 1-1-1 between them for me but I thought Marquez won the 3rd fight easier than Pac won their 2nd fight. Remarkable triology though, as close as you could possibly get!

[HE Grant]

After watching the fight I felt no one knew Paq has lost a step more than Paq .. all this aggression I read about but I did not see so much effective aggression ... He clearly an be offset by speed, a good jab and tight defense and movement ... Marquez deserved the decision in my book ... maybe Paq can get it together one last time for Floyd but I take Floyd by decision ..

[prototypeofamodernmadman]

I watched the last half of the fight again last night, it seemed to be a pretty sustained back and forth high output fight when revisiting. It seemed dull on fight night because of all the expectations and adrenaline.

Question, it probably won't happen, but if the May - Pac fight was possible to be made for May 5th, should Pac go straight into it or take a easy tuneup to build his confidence back up.

This Marquez fight has to be a real downer for him, could be a good thing, maybe coming off of a performance like this will motivate him to be spectacular and leave it all out there, on the flipside maybe the Manny momentum has been derailed and that would be a factor.

In closing I would like to remind everyone taking Mayweather to unanimously shut out Pac, fights are very rarely won on paper and speculation. We've all seen it right on this board where everyone intelligently and articulately explains exactly why and how fighter A will defeat fighter B, and then it all flies out the window the second the bell rings.

[mrbig1]

Watch the fight for the first time. I scored it 116-112 for JMM. Pac didn't lose a step or look flat. JMM just happens to have his number. He has been able to control Pac like no one else. If Pac was smart. He'll stay away from a 4th fight.

[Crold1]

I had it a point closer second viewing with Pac up 115-114 and different swing rounds identified this time. Crazy series between those two.

[diggity]

I actually scored this time.
I had them splitting the first 6, JMM taking 7-9, Pac 10-12 for a draw.
Round 1 and 12 could have really been scored even but if you were to push me I'd give Pac the 1st based on better aggression and JMM the 12th with landing the better punches.
Round 8 was real close for me too but I thought JMM landed the better shots to take the round.

In the end I thought Pac was given way too much credit for shots that didn't land and for his arms wildly flailing away even when they didn't hit much.
Such a disappointing fight.
Both guys spent a lot of time as if they were swatting at each other from opposite sides of a hile leaning over a fence.
Periods of 20-30 seconds went by in the fight where neither did anything but pose and feint, making scoring even more difficult.
When stuff like this happens, I typically keep tabs of who is winning each minute interval of each round then weight out which minute had more impact.

As for now, I'm now officially over analyzing these fights.
I really hope they do not go for a 4th.

[Sam228]

I watched this fight last night for the first time. I scored it 115-113 for JMM

I just gotta say; I’ve always found it hard to score a fight watching it on TV (especially HBO) Besides the commentator’s comments, IE… describing how hard one guy threw a punch as opposed to his opponents punch, but the camera angle moving around when a punch is being thrown. All those variables considered I still feel confident Marquez won the fight.
Not to mention how Freddie Roach was telling Pac he was gonna need a knockout when the fight got into the championship rounds. I think Freddie thought Marquez was winning the fight although I understand people will say he was trying to motivate Pac, it didn’t look that way to me

Btw, I think JMM’s trainer made a mistake telling his fighter he was winning in the last rounds of the fight.

I have a lot of respect for Harold Lederman and his ability to score a fight but even some of the other commentators didn’t agree with some of the rounds he gave Pac. I can see how some of the rounds I gave JMM could have gone to Pac; especially if you were scoring the fight at ringside.
As I said, I feel confident Marquez won the fight but many of the rounds were pretty close and tough to call (especially where I was sitting)

[hagler04]

Just re-watched the fight scoring all very close rds to Pacquao to see if a Pac win was within reason. Scoring that way it was a draw 6-6. Scoring it objectively I had a 7-4-1 W for Marquez. Manny did not win this fight. Outworked Marquez my ass, those punch-stats are a joke. Most rounds the number of punches they threw were very close in terms of amount, and Marquez routinely landed more consistently and by far the cleaner, more effective punches. Plus he fought a brilliant defensive fight.

Scorecard with swing rounds to Manny:

1) Pacquao

2) Marquez

3) Pacquao* (although very close and could've gone to Marquez

4) Marquez

5) Marquez

6) Marquez (punchstats apparently had Manny throwing and landing more this round . . WTF??)

7) Marquez

8) Pacquao* (very close and on my scorecard not giving the swing rounds to Pac, Marquez won it)

9) Pacquao (one of the very few clear Pac rounds of the fight)

10) Pacquao

11) Marquez (I think it was a fairly clear Marquez round)

12) Pacquao* (and I just gave this to him based soley on output, but Marquez actually landed more and outboxed a frustrated Pac this round; on other card was even)

[The Welterweight Epitome]

http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/amir...-retire-102391

Amir Khan talking again how Marquez won. How Pac 'should retire' and how he is getting the best of Pac in sparring.

[prototypeofamodernmadman]

Looks like Khan is looking to join the David Haye, Fraudley and Hamed club of British born fighters with weak chins and big mouths.

[The Welterweight Epitome]

Just re-watched the fight and scored it for JMM again by 3 (had him by 4 the first time).

Also re-watched their first fight, which I previously had JMM edging, but this time had it a draw.

Will have to re-watch their 2nd fight, but previously I had Manny just edging it.

So it's 1-1-1 between them for me but I thought Marquez won the 3rd fight easier than Pac won their 2nd fight. Remarkable triology though, as close as you could possibly get!

Well just re-watched the 2nd fight (now watched the entire trilogy again), and I had it a draw. From Marquez edging the first and Pac edging the second, to having both a draw.

Only one I am sure on and which has remained the same is the 3rd fight. Epic trilogy, one of the greatest I've ever seen.

[Juan C Ayllon]

My wife, Belle, has some things to say after watching our DVR'ed copy of Pacquiao-Marquez, but we're waiting for confirmation for her new registration under her moniker, BelfastBelle. Needless to say, she's no big fan of the over-commentating on the fight.

Cheers,



Juan C. Ayllon

[The Welterweight Epitome]

God bless her, that is a beautiful thing Juan when your wife can appreciate your interests so much! I look forward to meeting her on here.

[Pologrounds1]

Needless to say, she's no big fan of the over-commentating on the fight.

I hear that. I watched the replay on HBO this Sunday with the television on mute because listening to the HBO crew diminishes objectivity while watching the fight. Much better that way. I still thought Marquez won. Before the fight, I figured Pacquiao would demolish him. Then watching his gameplan unfold during the actual fight, I happily admitted the error in my thinking. One just never knows. Pacquiao wasn't even throwing hooks. The vaunted right hand was absent, after all of that development put into it by Pacquiao and Roach. Definitely a bitter taste in my mouth was left after watching the replay. Regardless of how I feel about the decision, that was a great tactical fight to watch (n Marquez's part), and finally we had a PPV (somewhat) worth the price.

[kikibalt]

From the latimes

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-...,5498086.story