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Good to see pretty much a 'pure' (at least as pure as you can get in MMA) boxer with good take down defence win the belt. Hopefully Rogan will stop hyperbowling the 'well rounded stand-up fighter' and realise the absolute power in being a specialist boxer.
JDS and Frankie Edgar are the best two boxers in MMA and both hold titles.
Last edited by The Welterweight Epitome; 11-13-2011 at 04:04 AM.
Yup can't dislike JDS as a person nor his style of fighting.
Cain looked soft weighing in at 250. Regardless his biggest mistake was lingering at the end of JDS's range. I didn't expect that from him and it is suicidal against someone like JDS. You work with a razor thin margin of error and thus you need to be all the way in or all the way out.... but absolutely not where cain got caught. Jon Jones commented post-fight that Cain doesn't have a great chin. I thought that was a baseless statement. Cain simply got caught with a huge, perfectly timed overhand right. Hit him above his ear and scrambled his brain. These things happen. Cain is a young and talented guy and it's not a situation where i think his prospects as a future HW champion should be written off at all.
I'm in the same boat as you when it comes to seeing guys with great boxing thrive in the octagon. JDS and Frankie are great... however one of my favourite boxers in the UFC is little Takeya Mizugaki. His dismantling of Cole Escovedo with some real tight boxing was a thing of beauty. Also have to add Fabio Maldonado. Really technically proficient and a brutal body puncher.
There is power in being a specialist boxer with takedown defense. However, the guys that are most effective in this role have a great equalizer.... one shot knockout power. Junior Dos Santos and Chuck Lidell being the 2 i would cite here. Chuck wasn't technically sound like Junior but he most certainly developed into a specialist and in his prime had a great sense of timing, distance, and the capacity to keep the fight standing and make any opponent tentative to move in. Without this great equalizer however i think fighters are best served by developing a rounded striking skillset albeit with a much larger emphasis on technical proficiency with the hands than we see now. The boxing in mma has improved signficantly over the years, yet i still see some handywork that is horrific to watch. I can't stand watching guys push punches.
If Overeem gets through brock, and given how much of a headache Werdum gave him with his smothering tactics that's a very uncertain outcome, that sets up an epic striking war with JDS. As Overeem has gotten bigger he has become very conservative with his output. Carries a high guard, covers up very well, and counters with explosive power shots. He is hard to tag clean. He is an elite level striker in every sense of the word. He is one guy that i think can hang with JDS at striking range relatively comfortably. He's been in there with guys that can bang and he has all the tools required to handle himself. Where Overeem is vunerable is his durability which is questionable at best. I hope this is the fight we see anyway.
I like Junior alot. Comes across as a really nice guy. In the octagon however he is as intense as they come.
Last edited by JaKob; 11-13-2011 at 06:42 AM.
Yeh, Cain I think got caught with the wrong gameplan, he was obviously going to try and use the leg kicks to slow Junior down before he took him out late with some ground and pound. That's how I saw Cain trying to work it. Unfortunately, like you say, sitting in the pocket with a thunderous, technically proficient boxer, is suicide waiting to happen. You will have to survive some brutal shots to have enough time for your leg kicks take effect.
Maldonado and Mizugaki, thanks, I will watch for them, to be honest, I haven't seen either fight yet although Maldonaldo does ring a bell, perhaps I have seen him just don't remember.
I agree with you that power is a huge plus for a boxer in MMA, but Frankie Edgar uses angles, counter-punching and output extemelly well. He has very little power and has shown how effective he can be standing. Not to mention, he barely uses his wrestling except for TDD, although he does throw in the odd takedown just to keep his opponenent guessing. His hands never used to be much at all, but he has really developed his own style of boxing which I dare say would be effective in the squared circle.
First thing I thought of when JDS won, was he vs Overeem. It would be a real test to see how good the K1 level is, because I do doubt it sometimes. I think some of the smaller guys who don't fight K1 like Yodsenklai and some of the MMA guys like Aldo have much better stand-up P4P than a lot of the lumbering K1 guys (although I know K1 isn't just heavyweights, but they are definately the K1' main attraction). To be honest though, I see JDS handling Overeem fairly easily, the Reem doesn't have the best chin and as you say, he simply covers up when attacked rather than using his footwork, so I can see him being put to sleep early too. I think a better gameplan by Velasquez is the biggest threat to JDS reign which could be one of terror over the heavyweight division in the UFC.
I like to see nice guys do well though, a lot of people mistake it as weakness in life.
Oh and Henderson looked impressive, although I don't see him giving Edgar much trouble.
Last edited by The Welterweight Epitome; 11-13-2011 at 07:20 AM.
What a lousy free-TV debut for the UFC. Dana White was clearly angry at Cain afterward for his game plan, and I'd think that's because what should have been a great fight, and a great UFC debut on free TV, was a stinker. If viewers didn't already know that Cain was a top, well-rounded fighter, and a champion, one would think from last night's performance that he was a bum.
I can't believe Cain's game plan. Anyone can be KO'd, but against a KO artist, one would think a top MMA man would use his supposedly multiple skills to avoid getting starched early. I like both guys, but am unhappy at a quick, essentially 1-punch, 1-minute fight.
I can't help but picture a prime Royce Gracie not being KO'd early, if at all, by any boxer alive. His jiu-jitzu was built around a small guy being able to compete with bigger guys, and he had zero problem with boxers, leading with his own front kicks and then grabbing them from an angle. Win or lose, you fought Royce's fight-- grappling, holds, and chokes.
It is this idea of "well-rounded" MMA guys losing to boxers fast-- Cain and Tim Sylvia (vs. Ray Mercer) come immediately to mind-- that makes me question how committed they are to MMA style. I just don't think a complete MMA fighter should be getting into punchouts and losing basic boxing matches, and if they do, it makes one question the whole concept of MMA.
Because a multi-skilled MMA guy should beat a one-skilled guy every time in an MMA fight. Junior never seemed that well-rounded to me.
What a nightmare debut eh?.
I was shocked they chose to put this particular fight on Fox considering the very high & quick KO potential.
Yeah it was a huge fight in a UFC sense but not necessarily the kind of fight you'd want to showcase your sport with on a new level on its own.
As significant as the fight is, it needs a good card to back up the sport as a whole considering how quickly you can be robbed of an evening in a fight like that.
It certainly did not deliver the message White wanted and equally didn't deliver much credit to either guy involved for those who may not know much about these guys.
As far as the fight, it is hard to fault Cain for attempting to feel things out for a minute.
As much as it theoretically makes sense for Cain to close the distance as quickly as possible, it also means coming right at JDS from the bell without really picking his spot - which sounds even more suicidal.
It was just a high looping shot that Cain didn't expect would throw off his equilibrium so badly.
Just an unfortunate miscalculation while cold.
I'm happy for JDS but its a shame for all that we were robbed of a good fight.
The thing is Michael, in the days of Royce Gracie, the guys he fought were one dimensional themselves and hardly at the top of their respective disciplines. You had boxers who were bums with one glove on. Junior is a well rounded guy himself, has BJJ, incredible take down defence and hands that could rival any of the heavyweights in the pro boxing ranks IMHO. This is what makes him so dangerous.
You couldn't just get a pure boxer in the Octagon. The guys who use thier hands also have to learn to check leg kicks, condition themselves to take them, know at least submission defence and have great takedown defence. So they do need to be well rounded, but specialising using the hands and being great at it, trumps any other stand-up technique I believe and having take down defence neutralises nearly all wrestling and BJJ (which is why we see fights like Edgar V Maynard, GSP Vs Koscheck, Cain vs Brock remaining on the feet for long periods despite all being high level wrestlers and why guys like Roger Gracie, Jacare and Demian Maia are all struggling to win or hold major titles despite all being the absolute best at BJJ).
This is my point, I think the sport is evolving. First BJJ was effective, now most guys know how to escape a lot of submission attemps. Wrestling then dominated, but guys are learning better and better takedown defence. Muay Thai was always rated above boxing, simply because most guys who are talented with their hands stick to boxing. Now that guys with talent and dedication with their hands are evolving in MMA (Nick Diaz, JDS, Frankie Edgar et al), you are seeing just how quick and devestating boxing can be (not sure why people always think Vitor Belfort is a good boxer, more like an explosive brawler). I think a guy with great hands and great take down defence is really where MMA is going to end up.
Last edited by The Welterweight Epitome; 11-13-2011 at 08:43 PM.
Welterweight Epitome, you make some great points.
However, as to Vitor Belfort, I'd refer you to his early UFC fights just prior to Couture #1. Vitor had awesome punching power and awesome speed, just knocking guys' lights out a la Mike Tyson but with bare knuckles. He looked unbeatable . . . as a striker . . . though he was a BJJ man who was supposedly awesome on his back (likely it was an exaggeration on that last point, however).
Vitor destroyed all pre-Couture opponents (incl. then-incredible Wanderlei Silva) with unmatched power, but his speed and skill were crucial to his effectiveness. He also trained with the Brazilian national boxing team and wanted to represent Brazil at the Olympic in boxing. He was serious about boxing.
I think that not crediting him for good boxing ability is something I'd disagree with. He looked a lot better as to boxing skill than the top-10 rated boxer Art Jimmerson that Royce beat with ease.
On the issue of this unfortunate UFC debut on Fox, actually it seems to have gone against some major principles that had made the UFC so good on PPV. Namely, providing a deep card of fights, so that a one quick ending or one weak bout (and there are so few of the latter in the UFC) would not affect the entertainment value of the entire event, which is pretty much always excellent.
Dana bet the farm (not actually the farm, o.k.) on one fight, based on the quality of both top athletes, but then "the unexpected" happened. Actually, as others have noted, with JDS, a quick KO is not so unexpected.
Someone also should have told Lesnar to TRY to act like a professional color man and not talk about himself at every turn unless asked about himself.
And as someone who never watches anything on Fox Sports, to me the dais at which Dana, Lesnar, and the lead commentator sat placed them seemingly very far away from the camera; it wasn't easy for me to see them, they looked far away and small. Why do it that way?
I too thought the desk arrangement was odd and Lesnar annoying. I was hoping White would say "Enough already!"
If only they had added the Henderson/Guida fight to the Fox spot, I think that would have delivered a more complete message to new viewers.
In Australia we got the Henderson Guida fight in full, the HW champsionship and the Demarques Johnson fight with the guy who hosts MMA live being like the anchor and Joe and Mike as the colourmen - No White or Lesnar.
It was a good show from my seat and I was surprised by the kinda shock result.
I think Cain needed a fight to get back into the groove after such a long layoff and JDS has had a good year all round.
Very pleased at the prospect of a Frankie Vs Henderson fight in Japan.
TWE - JDS and Frankie are excellent BJJ and wrestling practitioners respectively - They are well rounded!
Yes, Vitor is explosive as hell, fast and powerful. But his boxing ability is very limited. He has barely no jab and no control of the fight (generalship). Very very different to what I call a 'boxer', the likes of Edgar, JDS and even BJ Penn (until he tires after the first round).Originally Posted by Michael Frank
As for the Brazilian Olympic team, unfortunately, they are very average right? Even lil Nog represented them and his nowhere near the level of JDS with his hands. I'm talking high quality, top level boxers, of course, most can't get to this level, but it is good to see the guys who are trying rather than focusing on being 'well rounded' in the stand-up yet completely lacking any real stand-up ability or even idea how to utilize it.
Last edited by The Welterweight Epitome; 11-14-2011 at 03:20 AM.
This was in my post to Michael Frank, they also need to have great takedown defence and submission defence, as well as condition themselves to defend leg attacks, not a 'pure' boxer in the true sense of the word. Which is why boxers would find it hard to transition without really putting in the effort.
BUT, JDS basically never uses anything but his boxing and it makes up the vast majority of the Edgar game-plan these days. They have other skills, but they utilize their hands to win them fights.
Make no mistake, I'm not saying boxers would romp in the UFC (MMA), I'm saying that knowing footwork, distance with the jab, technique with their hands, combination punching, bodywork, is something vastly underutilized in MMA and it is great to see a couple of the guys who do appreciate and use it have such success. It only pathes the way to more top quality 'boxing' in MMA.
Last edited by The Welterweight Epitome; 11-14-2011 at 03:25 AM.
I don't fault Cain for standing with JDS. It was the way he went about it. Look where he was when he got caught with that over hand right. Standing square at the end of JDS's range. Cain looked a little lethargic and tentative.
If chosing to stand he needed to be presenting angles, using in and out movement, ensuring he is smothering in the pocket, or all the way out. Making those transitions, covering distance, and never remaining still in the killzone. Much the way Frankie Edgar does. He has the speed and conditioning to execute just that. He just didn't.
Rusty, flat footed, soft & cold.
Definitely not a recipe for success against JDS whatsoever.
Thing is that MMA has evolved so much that Royce would have been destroyed in the modern era and was by Matt Hughes. The current Gracies are so much better than Royce and none of them are MMA champs. Royce wasnt even one of the best Gracies of his time but since nobody knew how to fight on the ground he totally outclassed everyone.
Now a days everyone knows everything. BJJ, boxing, wrestling, Muy Thai etc. Going into the octogon with BJJ and nothing else is suicide.
BJ Penn who was the only non Brasilian to become the open class world champion in BJJ is an all time great in MMA not just becuase of his BJJ but because his boxing was so good compared to others in MMA.
Junior is a well rounded guy himself, has BJJ, incredible take down defence and hands that could rival any of the heavyweights in the pro boxing ranks IMHO.>>>>
I dont think so. He has a big punch. He still is no world class boxer even today
Agreed, boxing is gaining steam in MMA but it has a LONG way to go. Awesome boxing in MMA is still horrible boxing.
I reckon you take away the grappling from JR and he concentrates on boxing only and he would destroy many heavyweight boxers. I've seen him spar pure boxing, and the guy has some serious, serious skills.
The very few that are using their hands well (Eddie Alvarez who has trained with BHOP, Nick Diaz (who apparently does ok in sparring with Andre Ward) Frankie Edgar, Junior Dos Santos et al) in MMA I would bet my bottom dollar could compete with a lot of good professional boxers. Of course they are not exactly going to be P4P fighters, but they would hold their own with a lot of the contenders out there. They are much better than a lot of the average boxers that move into MMA like 'the Irish hand granade' Marcus Davis.
The success these guys have in MMA who dedicate a large portion of their training to boxing, are setting up the future for guys learning to specialise in their hands for their stand-up and that is a big positive I believe. Muay Thai got far too much credit for far too long, because all the guys good at using their hands stuck to boxing. Right now, the guys who like MMA but dedicate a lot of time to learning how to box, are showing what a lethal art is in indeed.
Last edited by The Welterweight Epitome; 11-15-2011 at 12:28 AM.
Yeah, I'm not so sure many boxers today are very good simply at boxing. I would favor JDS, with whatever boxing so-called limitations he has, in a boxing match against most professional boxers.
You and Jlupi must think pretty highly of today's boxers in terms of their boxing skills. I sure don't . . . from certain boxing world champions on down.
I say take away the grappling training, because he would need to condition himself for more cardio and endurance. Other than that, his skills are on par with most top heavyweight boxers out there.
I would favor JDS, with whatever boxing so-called limitations he has, in a boxing match against most professional boxers.>>>>
JDS looked crude to me. cain punches seemed slow motion. Sorry I just disagree. as bad as the heavys are JDS isnt beating any of the top guys w/o some luck.
Its not that I think that todays boxers are amazing but they still are full time boxers. MMA guys are just now picking up boxing.
Anderson Silva who is considered p4p the best MMA fighter in the world by many and has great boxing skill for an MMA guy has a 1 and 1 recond in pro boxing. He wanted to challenge an aging Roy Jones a few years ago and Dana White who is a boxing guy did everything he could to block the fight. Dana is more than happy to have boxers get their asses handed to them in the octogan but even he knows that the UFC guys would get crushed in the boxing ring.
Bottom line if these guys could compete in boxing with the limited training they do then why dont they? Hell, there is a lot more money in heavyweight boxing than there is in the UFC.
Anderson Silva is not one of the best 'boxers' in MMA. His sparring at the wild card gym was terrible. And his loss was well before he was accomplished with his hands anyways. Anderson is known for being good at all forms of striking and his speciality is the muay thai plum.
There are plenty of guys who have good boxing records in MMA, Fabio Maldonado JaKob mentioned above is 22-0 (21KOs) and Marcus Davis was 17-1-2 (12KOs). JDS, Diaz and Edgar are superior to almost any guy with their hands in MMA, even including some guys who sport good boxing records. And JDS sparring pure boxing was as impressive to me as most heavyweights I've seen spar in boxing. Of course, he would need to work on his stamina over the long haul, but he has far better technique and natural athletacism than most heavyweight boxers today.
I agree, MMA guys are just picking up boxing now, but the ones who have put the time in to learn it and have some natural ability, are sizzling with it already in the MMA world. Sure, they aren't going to beat the top notch boxers, but they sure as hell are getting some very good boxing skills and it is providing massive dividends for them in the Octagon.
Only as to your last point here: I think the MMA guys (even those with good pure boxing skills) compete in MMA simply because they prefer the challenge of MMA. In theory, and I'd say this is true most of the time, the MMA man should be able to defeat in a no-holds-barred fight a single-martial-art man, including a boxer (apparently not always true, however).
I believe it's this "best fighter, period" crown that the MMA guy seeks, and money is not his main motivation. Many/most of the Americans participating in the UFC, for example, are both college-educated and wrestlers. Amateur wrestlers are highly motivated by pride and little motivated by money; Lesnar was an exception and so he did the pro wrestling thing for a while. As to their education, these guys can do other things when they leave college; not so for most boxers, who are not college-educated (the Klitschkos aside).
My take, anyway.
I am aware that there are many MMA fighters with boxing backgrounds but my point is that none of them can be competative in boxing on an elite level. In your last paragraph it seems like we both agree on this... My disagreement with you was that Santos could compete in the heavyweight boxing division. I can't agree with that.
Maldonado and Davis have impressive looking records but a closer look shows that the caliber of boxers they fought where guys making their debuts or guys with horrible records. They swtiched to MMA because they simply didnt have the skills to be among the best in boxing.
I agree with you as to why these guys go to MMA instead of boxing. Wrestlers don't usually make good boxers =).
I believe if these guys actually had world class boxing skills (especially the heavyweights) they would be in boxing. There is no doubt in my mind that if Junior De Santos has true world class boxing skills he would be gunning for one of the Klits and make millions instead of fighting Cain for far less that 500,000.
Yep, I agree with all but we will have to disagree on the JDS front.
You have a much higher regard for today's heavyweight boxers than I do. Some of the current top 20 pro boxers look like bums, if not utter novices. Dos Santos looks far better at boxing than they do, to me. And no, I'm not going by the right he dropped Cain with, which looked wild (but no more wild or amateurish than Ken Norton's overhand right).
As to an alleged "elite" level in boxing, just how many of today's fighters have "elite" skills? Few, IMO.
I think the heavweight division is horrible but they are still lifetime boxers.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree until Junior steps into the boxing ring.
I do think though that as MMA continues to evolve that they will start to concentrate on more finite set of skills. MMA has already done away with many martial arts and useless kicks and strikes. Boxng seems to be the go to sport for hand striking. It is good to see that they are finally giving boxing its due respect. What I am trying to say here is that I am sure that in a few years we will be seeing some guys in MMA with absolutley awesome boxing skills.
I'm with you there.
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