Mayweather - Cotto May 5th

[JLP 6]

It seems that the video is pretty convincing to some because it was paused and commented on all in a negative sense to Floyd. (part one did not play for me but part two did, and all I watched was less than a minute of it). But I remember watching the fight, and rooting for Hatton, and watching Floyd dismantle him from outside and inside.

Floyd had nothing to do with Cortez. He was hitting Hatton at will for most of the fight. It came to the end and Hatton had Floyd pressed against the ropes, Floyd seemed to not mind it, and basically beat up Hatton with his back on the ropes, shoulder rolling and countering him to death. He started banging on Hatton pretty good, Hatton had to back off and Mayweather dropped him with one-shot. Hatton got to his feet and mayweather commensed to beating him up, until Hatton looked like and dead man on his feet. Honestly, that is what I remember of the fight, and I don't remember at the time thinking "man, this Cortez is in the way".

Paint it how you like but Mayweather beat the crap outta Hatton, and I was not sure if I remember any one on the Hatton side asking for a rematch.

[PD99]

JLP - I doubt that the provided clip alone swayed anyone into thinking that Cortez gave Mayweather unfair advantage.

I'm guessing that, like myself, others drew that conclusion after watching the whole fight when it actually went down. The clip merely points to specific instances of Cortez' uneven and unfair treatment as evidence in support. You might argue that it doesn't represent the whole fight but I can't see how you could argue against the highlighted instances in question.

Pointing to Cortez' uneven treatment should not be necessarily confused with a flat suggestion that Hatton would've won if all things had been equal. However, it is very much in line to suggest that Cortez' uneven treatment made it that much easier for Mayweather to deal with Hatton and ultimately dispatch him.

You say that part 1 didn't play for you. As OHR commented on, there is a moment included in that clip when Mayweather bends down and Hatton hits him (as he had every right to do). Cortez literally tells Hatton not to hit Mayweather when Mayweather is bending down? Is that NOT well and truly "getting in the way"? At another point, Cortez inexplicably wants the fighters to stand off (with both fighters about to engage in close) and it is Hatton, NOT Mayweather who Cortez elects to restrain. At yet another point, it is clearly Mayweather who is holding with Hatton simply trying to fight in close and, somehow, Cortez finds cause to admonish Hatton for "holding". So and so forth.

I mean, if Hatton was to have a chance, it was in close - is that not understood? Cortez only appeared okay with the inside action when Mayweather was enjoying all the success. If Hatton even hinted at the possibility of enjoying that same success on the inside, Cortez would separate the fighters - and a good indicator for Cortez to run in and prematurely halt the inside exchanges was Floyd's own overt holding, including the illegal elbow block.

Have a look at some instances during the DLH - Mayweather fight. Mayweather does throw some shots in close but shortly thereafter he quickly looks to hold. DLH would have none of it. With Mayweather "locking" DLH's left arm, Oscar simply banged Mayweather's body with his free right hand. Nice, hard shots which Floyd did not like. Almost as quickly, Floyd has released his grip and backed right off. Had that been Cortez in there, the action would've likely been unjustly halted upon Floyd's own holding - robbing Oscar of his "right of reply".

As to Hatton's imperfect fight execution otherwise, I would imagine that Cortez' uneven treatment had Hatton eventually double guessing himself as to which way to go lest he be unfairly warned or interfered with again.

[walshb]

PD99,

well explained. I don't think anyone is saying that Cortez alone cost Ricky the fight. Ricky was never beating PBF, but any slim chance he had sure was scuppered with Cortez in the ring.

Look at his handling of the Ortiz-PBF bout. It was like the WWF in there. Shambolic.

[PD99]

PD99,

well explained. I don't think anyone is saying that Cortez alone cost Ricky the fight. Ricky was never beating PBF, but any slim chance he had sure was scuppered with Cortez in the ring.

Look at his handling of the Ortiz-PBF bout. It was like the WWF in there. Shambolic.

Sure. I might be wrong and while JLP didn't state it literally, I got the impression that JLP might've thought that it was being suggested that Cortez did cost Hatton the fight. Sometimes, when certain things are pointed out - particularly relating to poor refereeing, some ppl respond with "Doesn't matter, he would've still would've got beaten anyway". Again, JLP didn't state this - I was just making the distinction at any rate.

The crazy part with the Mayweather v Ortiz fight was, Cortez was absolutely clueless as to what went down in the final seconds - but, somehow, Cortez wasn't technically to blame for Ortiz being laid out the way he was and, while it was a cheap shot, Mayweather was actually within the rules to throw those punches.

[JLP 6]

PD99...thanks for your reply.

I just wanted to make sure no one was saying that Floyd somehow did not "win" the fight because of Cortez. I don't like Cortez's crap about being "fair but firm". Shut up and get out the way! I will take your word that he was a hinderance to Hatton. I also remember Hatton making a big deal about it (i.e whinning). I have seen much worse and I believe great fighters over come this.

On top of that Hatton kinda had it coming. His win over Kostya was in his home, with his ref, and the ref was cheating something vicious for him. Kostya folded because he was fighting a dirty and rough Hatton (which I like sometimes) and his a referee (which I don't like), and I think it was more a unfair then what we percieved in the Mayweather-Hatton bout. The ref for that fight does not get much flak, nor does hatton for taking advantage of this disadvantage for Tszyu. Mayweather overcame Hatton being dirty by being dirty and rough too. Also, but being faster and a better schooled fighter. BTW, again I was rooting for Hatton.

Now, with Tszyu fight in mind, I can see a ref thinking "I am not going to let Hatton wrestle his way to a title over a great fighter like Mayweather". "This is boxing, not grappling". As much as it is cool to not like the man Mayweather, the fighter at that point had zero reputation for grappling/dirty fighting. On the other hand that is pretty much how Hatton wins. Is it fair, maybe not? But is understandible considering the context? I think so.


Frank Cappucino, I like. Kenny Bayless, I like, Tony Perez, I like. Maybe they have an off night, but they have been a part of some great fights and they did not hinder the action. That is all I ask. I want to ref to make sure they are fighting. If they are, get lost.

[walshb]

Sure. I might be wrong and while JLP didn't state it literally, I got the impression that JLP might've thought that it was being suggested that Cortez did cost Hatton the fight. Sometimes, when certain things are pointed out - particularly relating to poor refereeing, some ppl respond with "Doesn't matter, he would've still would've got beaten anyway". Again, JLP didn't state this - I was just making the distinction at any rate.

The crazy part with the Mayweather v Ortiz fight was, Cortez was absolutely clueless as to what went down in the final seconds - but, somehow, Cortez wasn't technically to blame for Ortiz being laid out the way he was and, while it was a cheap shot, Mayweather was actually within the rules to throw those punches.

Regarding PBF-Ortiz, didn't Cortez screw up because he wasn't watching the fighters, didn't order the proper commands etc? I can't fully recall, but I am sure he seemed completely inept, and he didn't even see the first sucker punch Floyd threw. So, what was he at? Cortez' reactions as floyd was delivering the shots said it all.

[Chuck1052]

I don't blame Floyd Mayweather Jr. for taking advantage within the rules when Victor Ortiz failed to protect himself. After all, Mayweather and Ortiz are professional boxers.

- Chuck Johnston

[PD99]

Walshy - Although it was somehow missed initially by many, Cortez did in fact wave Mayweather and Ortiz back in to fight - with an accompanying word or words to that effect.

Thereafter, Cortez dropped the ball and was wrong in not keeping his eye on the action (he was too pre-occupied with the time keeper). Had he witnessed Ortiz going in for yet another hug, he might've instructed the fighters to separate thereby preventing PBF from throwing a punch on a so called "break". As it was, Cortez wasn't looking for the longest time after calling the action back on and Mayweather took advantage. Disappointing because I, for one, wouldn't have minded seeing how that one panned out under conventional circumstances.

Imo, Ortiz was reaching PBF pretty good and some of the aggressive, bully like up close stuff was none too comfortable for Floyd. Ah well, there's just no accounting for a mental implosion as upheld by Ortiz.

JLP - thank you also for your reply. I think you nailed it with the suggestion that Cortez may well have been dealing with Hatton on "suspicion". What Hatton was allowed to against KT was horrendous.

Still, imo, a ref. should deal with fighters "as and when".

I see two possible scenarios here.

Scenario One sees Fighter A fighting dirty without intervention. The recipient, Fighter B, isn't fighting dirty and is waiting on the ref. to do something but nothing is done. For mine, that scenario might describe the Hatton v Tszyu fight. While I hold the ref. at fault, I feel that KT might've at least endeavoured to return in kind - fight fire with fire.

Scenario Two is worse. That is a situation in which Fighter A is allowed to fight dirty but Fighter B, while willing to return in kind w/out waiting for the ref. to help is ACTUALLY prevented from doing so by the SAME ref. who is allowing Fighter A to do whatever he wants. With a relatively clean rep. going in, Fighter A (in Mayweather's case I wouldn't say certain illegal features of his game hadn't already pointed out), in all irony, is given carte blanche while Fighter B is pre-emptively and absolutely stifled by the ref.

At a slight tangent, Jay Nady's handling of Ruiz v Jones is interesting to break down.

There were no illusions that Ruiz was a great boxer. The enormity of the challenge to Jones was how Roy was going to handle a much larger opponent who was prone to grappling and who used his size and weight to advantage.

Now Nady clearly was not going to let Ruiz do his usual stuff against the much smaller Jones. With even just a whiff on inside action Nady was in there with bells on breaking the fighters up. On one hand, it wouldn't be wrong to suggest that Nady was doing the right thing to some extent - many feel that Ruiz' tactics were not in the true spirit of boxing. However, going into the fight, the perceived "challenge" for Jones was how Roy would overcome such tactics. Basically, Nady himself removed that so called "challenge" - as such, imo, Jones' achievement wasn't as nearly as great as what it was perceived to be (in potential) going into the fight.

Had pundits known that Nady would militantly ensure a pure boxing match at distance with almost total preclusion of in close engagement, there would've been that many more people who would've picked Roy to win with relative ease.

[doomeddisciple]

Scenario One sees Fighter A fighting dirty without intervention. The recipient, Fighter B, isn't fighting dirty and is waiting on the ref. to do something but nothing is done. For mine, that scenario might describe the Hatton v Tszyu fight. While I hold the ref. at fault, I feel that KT might've at least endeavoured to return in kind - fight fire with fire.

First off - Kostya's a class above that.

Second, even when KT scored a legit beltline body shot knockdown in around the 6th round, the ref called that a low blow anyway.

Short of holding KT's arms, there wasn't anything Ricky wasn't getting away with that night and KT STILL gave one of the classiest post fight speeches to the crowd afterwards.

For that reason, as an Aussie who watched every fight Tszyu had as a pro - My friends and I were firmly in the Mayweather corner when he fought Hatton. Cortez did break the action up, but the thing with that was it was Floyd's tactic of putting his forearm in Hattons face every time Rick got inside that left Cortez with no option but to break the fight.

[JaKob]

Im not sure anyone here alluded to the notion that Hatton would of won that fight if it wasn't for cortez and his terrible refereeing job.

What i personally stated was that Ricky Hatton was undoubtedly causing some discomfort by getting right on top of Floyd Mayweather without hesitating, getting tentative, and was trying to maul on the inside. Floyd with his low output, pot shotting style wasn't controlling the fight in the same fashion he did as a result. This is indicative of what little weakness there is in Floyd as a fighter and stylistically. This point being relevant at a time where many people are buying into Floyds aura of invincibility and going as far as writing off Cotto's chances at even making this fight competitive. Cortez seemed absolutely intent on preventing any semblance of inside fighting. Cortez made this fight easier than it should've been. That being said i think it would of likely ended within the distance if not as a dominant victory for Floyd Mayweather.

[JaKob]

It seems that the video is pretty convincing to some because it was paused and commented on all in a negative sense to Floyd. (part one did not play for me but part two did, and all I watched was less than a minute of it). But I remember watching the fight, and rooting for Hatton, and watching Floyd dismantle him from outside and inside.

Floyd had nothing to do with Cortez. He was hitting Hatton at will for most of the fight. It came to the end and Hatton had Floyd pressed against the ropes, Floyd seemed to not mind it, and basically beat up Hatton with his back on the ropes, shoulder rolling and countering him to death. He started banging on Hatton pretty good, Hatton had to back off and Mayweather dropped him with one-shot. Hatton got to his feet and mayweather commensed to beating him up, until Hatton looked like and dead man on his feet. Honestly, that is what I remember of the fight, and I don't remember at the time thinking "man, this Cortez is in the way".

Paint it how you like but Mayweather beat the crap outta Hatton, and I was not sure if I remember any one on the Hatton side asking for a rematch.

Again i think Mayweather would've won regardless.

That being said it boggles the mind to think that ANYONE can watch that fight especially in the early going and NOT conclude "man, this Cortez is in the way"
because the reality is he absolutely was.

[The Welterweight Epitome]

Sorry, off topic, but just hearing the name Kostya, I really miss the early version of him, he was ferocious! I think the only man Oscar never fought in his span of 6 divisions, was Kostya, I wish that fight would have taken place, would have been an exhibition of supreme schooled amatuer boxing skill alongside professional strength and power, an absolute firework of a fight!

[Julian Jackson]

Hey PD. Great observation on Jones-Ruiz. I remember being disgusted at the lack of action in the fight, but hadn't noticed just how much Nady foiled Ruiz's usual game. I totally agree that it changed everything. The result was one of the worst heavyweight Title bouts in history. It is shameful that after 12 rounds of boxing, the WINNER landed less than 100 punches, and the loser less. What a sham of a contest.

[Julian Jackson]

I apologize. I double checked my facts after the last post, and I guess punchstat had Jones landing 139 and Ruiz 85. It is still less than 12 lands a round for Jones (with nothing close to a knockdown), and an abysmal 7 punches a round for Ruiz. I stand by my statement that it was a shameful fight.

[JLP 6]

I apologize. I double checked my facts after the last post, and I guess punchstat had Jones landing 139 and Ruiz 85. It is still less than 12 lands a round for Jones (with nothing close to a knockdown), and an abysmal 7 punches a round for Ruiz. I stand by my statement that it was a shameful fight.

It really was..

[jlupi]

It is shameful that after 12 rounds of boxing, the WINNER landed less than 100 punches, and the loser less. What a sham of a contest.>>>>

at this point in his career jones main weapon was to intimidate his opponent w his speed. Nady may not have helped john, but he also fell into that trap.

[walshb]

The punch output in the Jones-Ruiz fight is not the shameful element of that fight, it's that John Ruiz was considerd to be a world heavyweight champion.

[PD99]

Thanks Julian.

The punch stats for Ruiz-Jones pretty much sum up how "exciting" that fight was. Plenty of negative space.

Doom - re Tszyu. No bigger fan of KT than myself and I'm with you on the "class" factor - it's one of the few fights I find very difficult to watch in re-run. I still personally feel that Kostya should have fought fire with fire - particularly when it was obvious that the ref. was in cahoots. The ref's call on the belt line shot was an absolute joke - and Hatton's blatant low blow in response had me seething.

I was wary of that fight from the get go. Any which way, Hatton was going to give Tszyu a good run - especially since Kostya was 36 yo with many tough fights behind him already and with his situation further compounded by injury and sporadic fighting in recent times. And, Tszyu was the Champ and his team should have been calling the shots at least to the point of an even playing field if not to Kostya's advantage. Fighting in Hatton's backyard, with an English ref. at something like 4.00 am (for US networks) - to me that was crazy and walking into a potential trap that ultimately ended up perfectly unfolding itself in Hatton's favour.

Also, while it may not have made a difference, I thought Tszyu's corner could have been far more vocal in their protests against Hatton's tactics and the ref's outrageous allowance of same. What also annoyed me was that, notwithstanding the contrary facts, many ppl chose to fix themselves on the belief that Tszyu quit. As much as I have seen and read, it was Lewis who stopped the fight of his own volition - he was basically asking Kostya if he was okay to continue and he was met with incoherence.

I don't recall being overly fussed about Hatton after that fight either. However, at least imo, when viewing Mayweather v Hatton in perfect isolation, I think it was Hatton himself who was hard done by but certainly not to the extent that Tszyu himself was rail roaded.

Btw Doom, I think you would have lurved Pacquiao's demolition of Ricky. No middle man bullshit there. Pacman brought in his very own referees - the good ol' right and left.

[The Welterweight Epitome]

Kostya trained to Russian techno beats a lot of the time, his punch output (and heartrate) ran in tandem.

Hatton set a big variance in pace from minute to minute or round to round, which requires a different fitness. Hatton even said this was Kostyas weakness before the fight.

Make no mistake, there was a lot in the favour of Hatton that night, but by doing this to Tszyu he really upset his rythem (ref or not ref, prime Tszyu or not so prime). It was a very very smart tactic and one which is nearly entirely overlooked.

[walshb]

Hatton that night in 2005 was like a man possessed. He was at his physical peak. Ridiculously fit and non stop rough and tough. He took a great shot too, and worked the body, arms, hips non stop on Tsyzu.

[JLP 6]

Yes...Until he got dropped with a single bodyshot, which under normal circumstance would have been counted as a KD, and getting that boost in points and confidence may have been able to do it again. (I did not have him down in the bout by much. I think I had it even after 6.)

Hatton was very fortunate to be at home where he had seemingly everyone in the world rooting hard for him, including the ref, and where he could do anything he wanted. Could you imagine if that fight was called fair and Hatton lost? They would have torn that place to dust. Those same Englishmen were still beating drums 30 minutes after Mayweather had laid Rick on the mat like a warm blanket.

[PD99]

Kostya trained to Russian techno beats a lot of the time, his punch output (and heartrate) ran in tandem.

Hatton set a big variance in pace from minute to minute or round to round, which requires a different fitness. Hatton even said this was Kostyas weakness before the fight.

Make no mistake, there was a lot in the favour of Hatton that night, but by doing this to Tszyu he really upset his rythem (ref or not ref, prime Tszyu or not so prime). It was a very very smart tactic and one which is nearly entirely overlooked.

Welter - personally, I wouldn't say that it was overlooked but really, when it was accompanied by some seriously dirty fighting and a ridiculously affording referee - two major factors that well contributed to Tszyu's downfall also - how much credit can you afford Hatton for his otherwise legitimate tactics?

As to Tszyu's preferred rhythm, it's somewhat problematic to assign a Hatton the perfect blue print when, aside from the foul tactics, the ref, foreign land and later hour, Tszyu was a well worn 36 yo, with recent injuries and infrequent fighting going against him (If I recall correctly, his last two fights prior only upheld about 7 or so rds in total).

Finally, I don't know what rhythm or level of fitness would have been necessary to withstand the outragously deliberate and bang on the money low blow Hatton landed straight after a clean break in the action (let's face it, Tszyu's belt line shot mid up close action was accidental and hardly damaging).

One might suggest that Hatton's low blow "punctuated" the true underlying secret of Ricky's ultimate success against Kostya. Fighting dirty with complete impunity.

[PD99]

Since it's on topic, I just thought you fellas might be interested in this short interview with Kostya Tszyu during the Anthony Mundine v Danny Green fight telecast. As was said earlier in this thread - KT is a classy guy and let alone holding any grudges, he obviously held a good measure of respect for Hatton.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOuh5GWwBOw


I will say this, while KT didn't land a lot of right hands, of those that did land, Hatton took them pretty well. I believe that in some instances, if a fighter is sufficiently, pumped his overall resilience can be enhanced.

At his peak, Jeff Fenech was an absolute warrior and took some heavy artillery without folding - in terms of this psychological resistance - I think Jeff hit his absolute peak in the first Azumah Nelson. A fight in which he withstood heavy punishment only to be robbed (imo) of a rightful victory.

Imo, there is no accounting for how much steam that took from Fenech. Thereafter, Fenech didn't seem as intense as he once was and his resilience appeared to deteriorate right alongside that lack of intensity.

I view the way Frazier stood up to Ali in Super Fight I in a similar vein. Psychologically, Frazier was never going to fall or falter against his arch rival and Joe absorbed tremendous punishment. Joe was never the same at any rate but imagine if the hell Joe put himself through was compounded with his not being awarded the decision.

[KOJOE90]

Well the fights almost here!!!!

[diggity]

Cotto seems as ready as he'll ever be but he is just in way too over his head.
Even on his best day, he never had what it took to beat Floyd at his worst.

[Kurant]

It's going to be another Corrales VS Mayweather type of destruction. I just don't see Cotto having enough.

[GorDoom]

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/...s-miguel-cotto

[JLP 6]

"Once Mayweather has figured out the way Cotto is moving and reacting to his own movement, I think we may see the most aggressive Mayweather performance since the Gatti fight."

This is exactly what I expect. Cotto is going to take a lathering.

[Juan C Ayllon]

I'm thinking that this will be another one for Mayweather's highlight reel, but not without some testing. And, who knows? Cotto can punch a bit. There's always that famed "puncher's chance!

My wife, who detests Mayweather since watching him versus Ortiz at a theater, is pulling for Cotto.

Either way, we're having some friends over to watch the Pay-Per-View event, and am even planning on borrowing a thing or two from this old thread to help spice things up:

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/cbzfo...vres-amp-Tapas

Right now, I'm leaning toward kicking in some of my acclaimed lightly breaded chicken strips (made from scratch), along with the chipotle mayo sauce near the beginning of the link above, as well as some bottled wing sauce, some guacamole, salsa and chips, a few bottles of wine, and having guests bring a plate to pass.

[walshb]

I am pulling for Cotto and Bradley. Will serve the two right for not getting the fight on. I am more rooting for Cotto though.