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Thread: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

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    When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest
    By Adam Pollack

    On Saturday March 24 in Texas, as has been par for the course in this sport, all was not well with boxing. Unlike sports like the NFL, which makes sure that only the best are allowed to officiate, boxing allows just about anyone do to it. You just have to be chosen either by a state athletic commission or some sanctioning body. And their litmus tests for judgment, competence and integrity more often than not leave something to be desired. Quite often this is the case in the state of Texas, which has a reputation for choosing the worst referees and judges, and doing it over and over again so often that one might get the impression that they do it intentionally. Yet networks like HBO continue to televise fight cards in Texas. Fighters continue to agree to fight in Texas. Their managers/promoters fail to object to incompetent officials. We cry and bemoan incompetence over and over again, and yet governors do not fire incompetent commissioners, sanctioning bodies continue to use the same people, we do not see new and improved referees and judges, and it just continues. Does anyone really care? Or is something more nefarious going on? Are they actually happy about horrible decisions?

    On Saturday night, Carlos Molina was in the process of beating James Kirkland. It was absolutely obvious. Yet, Judge Gale Van Hoy had Kirkland ahead. No competent judge could reasonably have Kirkland winning that bout.

    But poor judging was the least of the concerns in this fight. Referee John Schorle allowed Molina to push, head butt, and grab incessantly without any points deductions and almost no warnings. True, Molina outlanded Kirkland and had him totally confused. But Molina was also fouling him, and yet referee Schorle did not seem to care.

    Suddenly, at the end of the 10th round, Kirkland dropped Molina. The bell rang as Molina was in the process of going down. The referee knew the round was over. He administered the mandatory eight count as required. However, during the count, one of Molina’s cornerman entered the ring. This was idiotic. Everyone knows you do not enter the ring while the referee is administering a count. However, he likely entered because he knew the round was over and Molina had risen from the knockdown almost immediately, rising by the count of three. Referee Schorle momentarily suspended his count and waived the cornerman out. He finished the count, and then directed the boxers back to their corners. However, he then went over to ringside and disqualified Molina for his cornerman’s entry.

    Since this was a WBC Continental Americas title fight, the WBC rules were applicable. WBC rule 15 lists 29 fouls, of which foul #29 states, “During a round, a boxer’s seconds entering the ring or stepping on the ring apron.” Said list of fouls are not grounds for automatic or mandatory disqualification as announced by Michael Buffer, but “may be cause for penalty or disqualification.” Rule 12 states, “The bell will not save a knocked down boxer in any round.” Rule 11 states, “There will be a mandatory 8 count after a knockdown.” So it was a technical foul to enter the ring during the mandatory 8 count.

    However, fouls also include, “Use of elbows, shoulders or forearms,” “Butting with the head,” “Excessive holding the opponent or maintaining a clinch,” “Striking after the referee’s order to ‘break’ or ‘stop’,” and “Holding the opponent’s head or body with one hand while hitting with the other.” But Schorle and referees throughout the country do not immediately disqualify boxers for the first violation of these and other fouls, all of which cause more harm to the opponent than does a cornerman’s entering the ring after the bell has rung and his boxer has risen from a knockdown. Schorle should not have disqualified Molina for his cornerman’s minor foul.

    As a purely technical legal matter, Schorle was within his rights to disqualify Molina. Molina’s cornerman made a huge blunder. This is why I don’t think Schorle should be totally vilified the way some are doing. But, we do expect the best referees to exercise sound discretion, and to use intelligent, well-reasoned judgment when making their calls. The cornerman was obviously confused. His entry in no way harmed Kirkland. The round was over, Molina had quickly risen, and the fight was going to continue, with Molina to receive the one-minute rest period. A disqualification terminating a fight is an extremely harsh penalty, one that should not be used indiscriminately. The referee should have used his better judgment and allowed the fight to continue. At worst, he could have deducted a point from Molina. There was no reason to issue what is essentially a death sentence for a minor technical violation, particularly in a sport where much worse, more harmful fouls are allowed to pass without a warning or even a point being deducted.

    I don’t think Schorle was biased, because he allowed Molina to rough Kirkland throughout the bout. I just think he lacks judgment of the highest order, the type of judgment we would like to see from top officials operating at an elite level, as seen in other sports like football.

    This issue has arisen before. On November 22, 1898, in the 9th round of the James J. Corbett vs. Tom Sharkey rematch, Corbett’s cornerman Jim McVey started to enter the ring to shout at the referee about Sharkey’s foul tactics. McVey got his left foot into the ring and three-quarters of his body. The police at ringside grabbed McVey and pulled him out. Referee John Kelly allowed the transgression to slide. However, a determined and very excited McVey yelled again and this time came full into the ring and shouted at the referee. At that point, the referee disqualified Corbett. The difference here was that the boxers were in the process of fighting when McVey entered.

    Technically, Kelly was within his rights to disqualify Corbett. Queensberry rules stated, “No seconds or any other persons to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.” McVey entered the ring during the round.

    Back then, a round ended when the bell rang, and a fighter could be saved by the bell. So under those rules, Molina’s cornerman would have been within his rights to enter the ring after the bell rang. Today, once a fighter goes down, technically the round is still in progress until the referee finishes his mandatory eight-count and determines that the fighter is able to continue, even after the bell has rung. Technically, Molina had entered while the round was in progress, even though the bell had rung.

    However, there is also a history of referees using discretion and not disqualifying boxers for every technical violation of the rules. Fans and fighters typically have found disqualifications based on technicalities in boxing to be highly unsatisfactory. The best referees have been loath to disqualify fighters unless they had committed a flagrant harm foul or violated the rules so incessantly that they were forced to issue a disqualification. Anyone who follows the sport on a consistent basis knows this.

    Corbett-Sharkey II was not the first time that Jim McVey entered the ring during a Corbett fight, nor was it the first time that John Kelly had dealt with the issue of a cornerman entering the ring during a round. In 1894, when Corbett fought Charley Mitchell, Kelly had not disqualified Corbett when his seconds, including McVey, entered the ring to prevent an enraged Corbett from striking a downed Mitchell. Back then, Kelly simply got them out and allowed the fight to continue. So, Kelly had acted inconsistently in the two Corbett fights that he had refereed.

    Dissatisfied with the disqualification and reaction to the Sharkey-Corbett bout, when Sharkey fought Kid McCoy in January 1899, a term included in the articles of agreement stated that if a second entered the ring, he would be removed and the fight would continue.

    In 2006, during the 10th round of the Floyd Mayweather, Jr. vs. Zab Judah fight, after Judah committed a flagrant intentional low blow and rabbit shot, Floyd’s enraged and upset cornerman Roger Mayweather entered the ring, during the round. Others followed into the ring and a melee ensued. In that instance, Referee Richard Steele did not disqualify Mayweather, Jr., and the bout continued, to everyone’s satisfaction. Would John Schorle have disqualified Mayweather, Jr.?

    Schorle’s disqualification of Molina was to no one’s satisfaction, or almost no one.

    We can look to the past for guidance regarding the omnipresent issue of poor judging and refereeing. In the 1800s and early 1900s, the selection of a fair minded, competent referee, who back then also judged the fight, was often a hot topic of debate between managers. This was a big issue, because managers were well aware that the referee had a lot of power, and his judgment could influence the financial fortunes of both parties, particularly when purses were split based on winner or loser. Regardless, a fighter’s future marketability and economic value is often based on wins and losses. Therefore, when it came to a big fight, it was up to the boxers’ managers to agree upon a referee whom they deemed to be competent and neutral. If they could not agree, usually the athletic club sponsoring the fight would choose the official, which more often than not would be the club’s regular referee, a man who was deemed to be the best and therefore used at most of its local shows. A top respected referee would often referee every single bout. Clubs had an incentive to use the best man. Otherwise, patrons would cease attending their shows, or managers might refuse to allow their fighters to box there. Also, since gamblers were such a large boxing fan base, they would not wager on and attend a bout unless they felt reasonably assured of the referee’s competence/fairness. Hence, it was in a club’s and the sport’s best financial interests only to use the best referees.

    Unfortunately, today, fewer and fewer legislators, governors, commissioners, or sanctioning bodies have had the best interest of the sport at heart. If they did, they would only select the best judges and referees, and no longer use the ones who had proven otherwise. If politicians cared, they would fire commissioners who did not do what was best for the sport. Hence, the sport has continuously lost credibility. Ultimately, more managers and promoters should become actively involved in the process of who is selected and allowed to referee and judge a bout, as they did in the past. Because it is most certainly clear that politicians, commissions and sanctioning bodies have failed miserably in this regard, much to the sport’s detriment. And unlike the NFL or NBA, which have commissioners safeguarding the best interests of the sport as a whole, which ultimately benefits everyone involved, boxing really has almost no one looking out for it, and that includes politicians and commissioners.

    Oh, and if you hadn’t noticed, the referee for the main event of Saturday’s card was Laurence Cole, son of Dick Cole, who is the Texas boxing commissioner/executive director for the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation. Laurence Cole is the same referee who improperly told Juan Manuel Marquez, who had suffered a cut in a fight against Jimrex Jaca, that he was ahead on the scorecards. This led to a suspension, but Cole has been consistently assigned to elite refereeing positions thereafter, including Margarito-Pacquiao. Nepotism at its finest. Texas is not the only state that does this. See also California, another state which traditionally loves nepotism and incompetence. Why is it that no one does anything to stop this? Is it all about short-term economic and personal interests at the expense of the sport’s integrity and long-term viability?

    Texas is the same state that failed to test urine samples for the fight card that featured Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr. vs. Marco Antonio Rubio earlier this year, allegedly because they conveniently forgot to book a drug testing laboratory for the event. Chavez, Jr. has previously tested positive for a diuretic masking agent. And on Saturday, James Kirkland was unable to provide a urine sample before the fight began. I wonder if he was made to do so after the bout, and whether that urine will be tested. I called the commission/Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation to find out, but no one was able to answer that simple question for me, and I am still awaiting a return call from the public affairs department.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    Adam as always is a fine writer, so as a licensed referee I cannot comment on the referee's performance. If I may I would like to state the rules though.

    In the Kirkland fight, after he arose at 4 after the bell had already rung, THERE IS NO MANDATORY 8 COUNT. Why? The boxer arose and beat the 10 count and the bell had rung. He is then to go to his corner. When he arose before 8 after the bell had ended the round, his chief second/ corner man is supposed to and allowed to come into the ring to get him. He did so. I am sure his corner knew two things, one the bell had rung and the round was over, two he did not remain on the deck to be counted out and had beaten the count and was supposed to just be sent back to his corner WITH NO MANDATORY 8 COUNT.

    This point is drummed into the head of all referees some remember, some forget. So in essence the mandatory 8 count being "Finished up" was unnecessary, not applicable, and by the rules the corner man did not interrupt any legal count. He did not rush into the ring while the fighter was on the deck, then it is a DQ, or what Peter McNeeley's corner did in the middle of a round. See the difference.

    The round was over, there is no mandatory 8 count to be "Continued" the fighter is just sent back to his corner. If he falls on the way back or staggers badly
    then the bout can be stopped. A boxer was DQ'd for corner man entering the ring interrupting a count which should not have existed.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    WBC rules say there is a mandatory 8 count. So if there is an exception when it comes to the end of the round, then there needs to be an amendment to the rules. I don't see that in the WBC rules. Either way, it was poor judgment to issue a dq for a technical rule violation that harmed Kirkland in no way and had no impact on the bout.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    I do think that under Texas rules, it is not mandatory to continue the count once the boxer has arisen. The round terminates once the boxer has arisen, if the round had concluded.

    BUT, I think this was governed by WBC rules because it was for the WBC Continental Americas title. So it really is a WBC question. But again, regardless, the death penalty of a dq was simply unwarranted.

    Also, the way Schorle went about it was very bad. It looks odd that Schorle did not dq him as soon as the corner entered the ring, but rather got him out, then completed the count, then sent them to their corners. He did not announce a dq at that time, but acted like the fight would continue. But then he goes to ringside, talks with someone there, and next thing we know it is a dq. That made Schorle (and the commission) look even worse.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    I have dealt with this scenario several times in the ring. The alphabet groups having nothing to do whatsoever with mandating that a "Mandatory 8 count" continue when the bell has rung, a boxer has arisen from a knockdown before eight and his corner is waiting for him to return. He is sent by the ref at that juncture to the respective corner because the round is over and he is up. It is understood by all ABC United States referees.

    What would be the point anyway. The boxer gets up before 8, the bell has already rung ending the round, he is going back to the corner to be looked at by the corner, the doctor and the ref, it makes no sense to make him stand there some more AFTER the round is already over. No one does that.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    Well, you might be right, but someone would need to point that rule out to me in the ABC rules or the WBC rules. If it is there, then I totally agree. If it isn't, then it appears there is a gray area in the rules. I think it should be in the rules if it is not. Makes perfect sense to me. But when I read the words "mandatory 8 count" for knockdowns, well, something which is mandatory means you must do it. That means you must give an 8 count and evaluate the boxer to see if you as a referee are going to allow this bout to continue, regardless of the status of the round. I'm not saying that is the best rule or best interpretation of the rule, but I could see how Schorle might have thought that was the case under WBC rules. Your interpretation appears to be the Texas rule, and maybe the generally "understood" rule amongst referees. However, again, not sure Texas rules apply. I'd like to hear from a WBC representative regarding their rules and how their referees typically do this, or are told to handle this. That is what should govern. If the WBC typically tells refs to allow the bout to continue and send the men to their corners as soon as they rise if the round is over, then Schorle screwed up even more big time than I thought. Just not sure what the answer is. Either way, I still don't think he should have issued a dq given that the round indeed was over, the bell had rang, and so when Molina rose, it is understandable why a cornerman entered, and it was just very poor judgment to dq him for that, and looks fishy when he did not immediately issue the dq but waited until later.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    Still awaiting that return call from the commission. I left two separate messages asking one simple question - Did Kirkland eventually provide a urine sample?

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    Interesting.

    By the way, did anyone hear what Schorle said to that offending cornerman after he ejected him from the ring? I could hardly believe my ears! He said, "F--ing pygmy!" I replayed it several times just to make sure I heard right. Former Indiana Boxing Commissioner did likewise after I had informed him, and he agreed.

    Is there any sort of disciplinary action warranted for such unprofessional behavior? I mean, that's obscene and borderline racist!

    I would be curious about yours or anyone else's thoughts on the matter.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    from a ring article.
    http://ringtv.craveonline.com/blog/1...ss-to-kirkland

    Citing the Texas Rule 61.41 of the Texas commission's governing literature, Margules said Schorle's decision violated the section entitled "Responsibilities of The Referee" relating to knockdowns.

    "When a round ends before a contestant who was knocked down rises, the bell shall not ring, and the count shall continue. If the contestant rises before the count of 10, the bell shall ring ending the round."

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    Texas Commission Rule 61.41(K)(6) states:

    "When a round ends before a contestant who was knocked down rises, the bell shall not ring, and the count shall continue. If the contestant rises before the count of ten, the bell shall ring ending the round."

    IF the Texas rule applies, then the referee made an error and should not have disqualified Molina. The cornerman did not enter the ring until Molina had risen and the bell had already rung. Therefore, the round was already over and the count should have ceased upon his rising and the cornerman was entitled to enter and Molina should have been allowed to return to his corner and the bout continued after the one-minute rest.

    I spoke with Susan Stanford today from the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation, and she said that Texas rules did apply.

    She said Dick Cole is the Manager of Combative Sports, that he and Greg Alvarez were there.

    She said it was Schorle's decision to dq, not anyone else.

    However, there was no explanation about why Schorle had not immediately dq'd Molina when the corner entered. Instead, he got the corner out, rather than dq'ing right then and there. He then continued the count. He did not waive the bout off after the count either. He then had the boxers return to their corners. It looks odd that he did not announce a dq until after he went over to the ropes and spoke with someone at ringside.

    She said inspectors monitored the corners, but could not explain why they allowed Molina's cornerman to enter if it was allegedly improper. I would postulate that they allowed him to enter because it was perfectly legal to enter at that point.

    She said that she has not seen or received any protest regarding the bout result from Molina's camp.

    Surprisingly, she also flatly contradicted HBO's account of the urine issue. She said Kirkland provided a urine sample both before and after the bout.

    She also said that the officials are recommended by the WBC, subject to Texas approval. Also, each fighter's camp has the ability to object to the referee or any of the judges. She said that not since 2008, when she started working there, has any objection ever been made to any referee or judge appointed to a bout held in Texas.


    ABC rules: http://www.abcboxing.com/documents/A...GUIDELINES.pdf

    11. CORNER STOPPING THE BOUT

    It is strongly recommended that if a Chief Second wants to stop the bout, he or she is to inform the
    Inspector who will in turn inform the Referee. Entering the ring during a count or the bout and interfering
    will subject the corner’s boxer to a loss by DISQUALIFICATION.

    It is recommended that no one throws anything into the ring. If the Chief Second wants the bout stopped
    and the Referee is not stopping it, simply inform the Inspector.

    12. MANDATORY EIGHT COUNT

    The Referee will administer mandatory eight count after all legal knockdowns.
    At his or her discretion, the Referee may terminate the count if the boxer is in need of medical attention.

    22. BOXER DOWN AFTER THE BELL

    The round ends when the bell rings to end the round.

    In the event that legal blows during the round negatively affect a boxer, and he or she goes down after the
    bell has sounded to end the round, the Referee will consider that the round is over and that the one (1)
    minute rest period has begun.

    The Referee may then allow the boxer’s corner to assist him or her, and or summon the Ringside
    Physician to evaluate the boxer.

    23. KNOCKDOWNS AT THE BELL

    The bell to end the round should not be sounded by the Timekeeper during a count. In the event that a
    knockdown occurs at the end of the round and the bell rings, the Referee will disregard the sounding of the
    bell and continue his mandatory count.

    The Timekeeper is to ring the bell after the count and the Referee’s evaluation. The boxers are to receive a
    full one-minute rest period immediately after these situations.

    26. BLOWS AT OR AFTER THE BELL
    A blow that strikes a boxer concurrent with the sounding of the bell is deemed to be a legal blow.

    40. DISQUALIFICATION
    A boxer will lose by DISQUALIFICATION when he or she has:
    fouled and caused harm to their opponent
    continually refused to follow the rules
    continually disobeyed the Referee


    WBC rule 15 lists 29 fouls, of which foul #29 states, “During a round, a boxer’s seconds entering the ring or stepping on the ring apron.” Said list of fouls are not grounds for automatic or mandatory disqualification as announced by Michael Buffer, but “may be cause for penalty or disqualification.” Rule 12 states, “The bell will not save a knocked down boxer in any round.” Rule 11 states, “There will be a mandatory 8 count after a knockdown.”
    Last edited by apollack; 03-29-2012 at 12:33 AM.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    Just spoke with Ms. Stanford. She said that there is a mandatory 8 count even at the end of the round, and that by entering the ring before the count, the cornerman broke the rule. However, she had no answer or explanation for how that makes sense given the specific Texas rule that says that the count continues until the boxer rises, and that once the boxer rises the bell shall ring ending the round.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    Actually, under the ABC rules, there never should have been a count at all, because the bell rang before Molina was down. Therefore, under ABC rule 22, the round was over and the corner was entitled to enter immediately. Under Texas rules, the round was over as soon as the fighter rose from the knockdown. It is clear to me that both Schorle and Texas have chosen to ignore both the ABC and the Texas rules. Why, I have no idea. They would look better to simply admit the mistake, change it to a no decision, and move on. By backing the wrong decision and not honoring the rules, they just make themselves look worse, as if they have a vested interest in having Kirkland win. That is when it looks really bad.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    When the round is over the timekeeper usually rings the bell. If at the 2:57 mark with three seconds left for example the boxer is knocked down from a legal punch the count continues, he is counted out or gets up.

    Now....THIS is what is supposed to happen based on what the ABC, TEXAS et al want. They now want the timekeeper not to ring the bell until the referee is done with his count. Think of the confusion this causes. The fighter goes down at 2:57 of the round, everyone in the audience, in the corners know the bell is going to ring damn soon.

    But wait, now they want the timekeeper NOT to ring the bell while the boxer has been dropped seconds before the 3 minute mark. We all know the referee can count you out on the deck after everyone hears the bell, no problem.

    Now the boxer gets up at 4 and instead of sending him back to his corner as he beat the 10 count and got up before 8 too, they want the timekeeper to hold the ringing of the bell in abeyance and let the referee continue his Mandatory 8 count even though the round is over and the boxer is standing. When the referee is done while well into the next round, the time keeper then "Officially" is instructed to ring his bell.

    In Texas that night everyone heard the bell, Molina got up and you know the rest. Additionally the replay of the knockdown of Kirkland shows he was knockdown earlier in the bout by a legal punch. It was ruled no knockdown.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    The issue here is the 3:00 minute mark occurred before Molina was down. Hence the bell rang because he was not yet down. After the bell rang is when his body made contact with the canvas. Therefore, under ABC rule 22 the round was immediately over and the corner entitled to enter. "In the event that legal blows during the round negatively affect a boxer, and he or she goes down after the bell has sounded to end the round, the Referee will consider that the round is over and that the one (1) minute rest period has begun."

    Even under the Texas rule, the corner was entitled to enter as soon as Molina rose from the knockdown. "When a round ends before a contestant who was knocked down rises, the bell shall not ring, and the count shall continue. If the contestant rises before the count of ten, the bell shall ring ending the round."

    The problem is no one seems entirely certain what rule applies. The fighters and their corners and managers should be clear before the day of the fight what set of rules govern. The confusion is in part because no one really knows what rules governed. Texas claims Texas rules governed, but then they don't bother to follow their own rules and cannot understand the clear plain language of their own rules.

    There is something wrong with Texas. Just six days after Texas judge David Robertson scored 116-110 for Tavoris Cloud against Javier Campillo, a fight most objective observers believe Campillo won, Robertson was back judging again in Texas. It is almost as if they don't penalize judges for doing a horrid job, but they give them a bonus. Leads one to believe that the folks that run boxing were happy about his score. Makes me better understand why many folks say boxing isn't a sport but a business, where integrity and fair play means nothing.

    We still have no explanation for how Gale Van Hoy, a Texas judge, could have Kirkland winning that fight through the 9th round.

    Once again boxing loves to shoot itself in the foot.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    One alphabet group rules that a punch landed simultaneously at the bell is legal and the resulting knockdown from that punch commences.
    If the boxer is counted out case closed.

    If the bell has been correctly rung by the timekeeper as and old school boxing aficionado like me feels it should be at the 3 minute mark ending the round in question so everyone can hear it while the boxer is on the deck, yes the count should continue. If the fighter arises before 8, they should be sent back to their corner. Why? Because the warrior made it up on balls and guts.

    If for example the timekeeper has his memory and his synapse clicking without having a few Reginald Van Gleason belts before the bout with the good ole boys and has adhered to the rule that he holds the bell in abeyance while the fighter is on the deck from a legal punch and no one has to hear that bell, yeah, ok,
    hold the phone boys, hold your hats, the bell has not been rung by Quasimodo, keep counting ref, the fighter gets UP, hell man finish your mandatory 8 count at 3 minutes and 10 seconds into the next round for all I care, walk with the boxer, discuss his favorite color with him and all the rest.

    Why? No poor mean ole corner man heard the bell and they will sit there like good boys waiting for permission to get their boxer once Dr. Pavlov rings the bell at his leisure, after an adherence to this totally unnecessary mandatory 8 count given after the bell has rung and the boxer has gotten up.

    On the other side of the coin, I believe for the safety of the boxer at all times that the count should continue after the bell for a boxer on the deck. No more dragging them back to the corner by the arm pits like they did with Chegui Torres in the Charlie Green bout, although Jose won big after being revived.

    In Texas, the time keeper rang the bell and did not wait for the referee to finish his "Mandatory" 8 count after the boxer arose after the bell beating any 8 count.

    Boxing fans know finally who is being appointed as Refs and Judges and why, they know their records, how they look in that ring and how they get their assignments time after time in Texas, NY, NJ, Conn and with the alphabet groups and most important how their conduct is ignored and rewarded based solely on friendship and worse.



    by mistake or on purpose signifying the end of the roundthey arise before 8 I believe if the bell has rung at the hands of the time keeper Your points about Texas are well taken and cannot be disputed, as to some quite objectionable scenarios.

    In the case of Tom Molinares v Marlon Starling (Who I used to compete with at ping pong at the Concord), it should have been a DQ as it came after the bell. Seconds count in combat, seconds and half seconds count in boxing, MMA and in my former profession as a Police Firearm Instructor in Combat shooting.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    Sorry for the typing mistakes, the paragraphs were broken up, but I am sure you get the point.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    Ron, if you watch carefully, the timekeeper did not make a mistake because he did not ring the bell after Molina was down, but rang the bell before Molina touched down to the canvas. The timekeeper is supposed to ring the bell if the 3:00 minute mark is reached and the boxer is not down. That is what he did. AFTER the bell rang, Molina touched down to the canvas. The bell did not ring after he was down, but before. Hence, under ABC rule 22, the round should have been over and no count given, if that is the rule to be followed. If that is not the rule, Texas needs to explain why the ABC rules do not apply. Is it not an ABC member? If not, then Texas rules apply, which state that the round ends when the boxer rises from the knockdown.

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    Re: When it Comes to Boxing in Texas, Schorle You Jest By Adam Pollack

    If anyone can post the film of the end of that round it would be interesting to see it again. I looked at one link on You Tube but it did not play well.
    It did sound like the bell rang before Molina went down, thus making a strong and simple case for continuing the count and then if he arose before 8, simply send him back to his corner and no DQ for the corner man who simply came to get his boxer like everyone else does.

    It is a simple situation really. It all involves a referee counting over a boxer on the deck after the bell. Some guys get hit at the bell or a second or two after the bell like Starling v Molinares in which case that becomes a foul of being hit after the bell scenario resulting in points or a DQ penalty.

    1. It all involves when a timekeeper loudly and clearly rings the bell signalling the end of a round or NOT ringing the bell at the 3:00 mark because a boxer just went down prior to the 3:00 minute mark being reached from a legal punch and this "Rule" of holding the ringing of the bell signalling the end of the round until the referee finishes his 10 count or mandatory 8 count is put into effect by the time keeper. Everyone stays in the dark except the time keeper as to the end of the round.

    2. If the bell has not been rung, you simply have a boxer on the deck to either be counted out with a 10 count, fight stopped on a tko because he looks badly hurt, or a boxer arises before 8 and the ref completes his mandatory 8 count.

    3. Then without anyone hearing the bell including the audience, boxers, corner men, and referee there is a strong chance none of them knew the 3:00 mark has been reached and the arisen boxer gets his mandatory 8 count anyway just like he would in the middle of a round.

    4. In a different scenario then what occurred in Texas with the time keeper not ringing the bell at the end of the round, a boxer is on the deck from a legal punch again lets say at 2:57, he goes down and the ref starts counting, no bell. He gets up at 4 and the ref completes the 8 count. The ref waves them in for a second or two to fight some more and all of a sudden the timekeeper rings the bell and they go back to their corners.

    In that "All of a sudden the timekeeper rings the bell" adhering to the "rule" of ringing the bell when the referee completes his mandatory 8 count after the 3 minute mark, All the non time keepers in the audience, corner, commentators, boxers and other officials, are thinking what a long ass round that was.
    Some time keepers give you a two minute round like when Foreman fought Lyle.

    (PS I am so fed up reading articles of this bout with so called boxing writers saying the ref gave him a "Standing 8 count." The ignorance of boxing is mind bending after awhile.0

    5. Bottom line is I believe the timekeeper did ring the bell ending the round, everyone heard it. The ref continues the count, Molina gets up, most people believe he should go back to his corner, the made him stand there and take the rest of the mandatory 8 count after the bell had been loudly rung. Many believe that the
    fact that the bell had been rung, heard by all, should not have resulted in a DQ, that the mandatory 8 count should be stopped after a boxer arises after the bell has been rung, and simply sent back to his corner to be looked at by all concerned.

    If a doctor is necessary the ref can extend the rest time with the time keeper but the boxer beat the count after the bell had rung and the ref correctly continued the count. The count should be stopped once the fighter has gotten up after the bell, so he can get the full minute rest between rounds. If the bell has not rung, then give him the full mandatory 8 count just like in any other part of the round.

    No DQ here.

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