JLP & Jakob.
I'm reading things stated toward me (I think) that I did in fact already state myself.
I obviously introduced the comparison between Judah and Pacquiao to suggest that, overall, Manny would have amplified success against Mayweather.
With that, it was suggested that I wasn't affording Mayweather due credit for defeating Zab. Clearly, the point being made wasn't about affording or withdrawing due credit for Mayweather but due credit was inserted all the same - chiefly being that Mayweather showed a lot more character than Judah did - however, that fact doesn't compromise the more technical analysis of skill v skill.
Obviously, again, I never stated that Pac would wilt as did Judah. I actually stated the opposite. No one said that Judah was special in the overall scheme of things - a loss of focus and committment in the face of pressure being cited in particular. However, Judah did have some special attributes that were not realised to the potential most people projected for him. Why? Quite likely because Zab didn't possess the psychological make up to see his talents through but those talents randomly shone through nonetheless. I definitely didn't state or suggest that Zab presented more difficult opposition than Manny would.
What I did do, in balanced fashion, was break down the indivual strengths and weaknesses of both Judah and Pac as they were used and how they could be used (respectively) against Mayweather. Judah did play excellent D against Floyd early to mid rds and that D allowed Zab to maintain sufficient proximity to execute his own level of offense. That doesn't translate to Manny's offense being less. Quite obviously, Pac's offense is that much more powerful and varied.
I simply indicated that Pac's own D would not be the attribute to allow him to find himself in the kill zone (remember, I was comparing Zab to Pac, attribute for attribute). Naturally, if Pac were to find his way in, it would be more via his offense than his defense.
Both Judah and Pac possess(ed) exceptional hand speed. It's arguable from either end as to who is/was actually faster - and, I did note that the difference that I peronsally cited in Judah's favour to be negligible.
Lastly, I simply pointed out that IF Mayweather began finding Pac with the lead right hand (a premise which naturally assumes that Pac's offense wasn't sufficient to offset Mayweather's own offense), it would be difficult for Manny to find his way in with less defensive alternatives to fall back on.
Just harkening back to hand speed. Being faster isn't necessarily the be all and end all. A guy might have 10/10 hand speed but only throw two shots at most at any given time. Another guy with 9/10 hand speed might throw combinations of a up to 5-6 shots, straight down the pipe and his hand speed will be that much better conveyed and used to greater effect.
Last edited by PD99; 05-16-2012 at 08:43 PM.
My man Michael Frank refuses to give him credit, but I see things he does that in any era would be tough to beat. His counterpunching, and accuracy while avoiding getting his is something that is special. We give credit to benetiz, i think that he is better than benetiz. The fight that would be great to see would have been Mayweather vs the duran that faced Leonard in 1980 in Montreal. I know everyone on here will scream Duran kills him. I am not so sure. Styles makes fights, and Mayweather is a better counter puncher than Ray leonard. His punches are shorter, more accurate. Leonard is much more aggressive, offensive minded, hits harder, throws combinations better. I see what was getting duran in the later rounds, was rays, left hook leads. Now Where may weather may simply get overwhelmed is Duran was relentless vs Ray, and he knew how to punch coming in, and not wait to get hit. Now may weather has a great uppercut, as Cotto found out in the last round, Ray did not use it until the 2nd fight. The way Duran ducked under the right, and good uppercut could have been a great tool to use in that first fight.
I think may weather would have the style to beat Duran, but does he have the toughness, punch volume, I say......NO he does not. Duran is 3x what cotta was, and Cotta waits to throw his punches, Duran does not, and has a great great jaw.
I bring up this fight because it is Mayweather cot to o steroids. Now the Mayweather that fought Corrales, that had his legs may be able to move better like Ray did in New Orleans. We have to get Mayweather his just do, he has skills that are amazing. Now we wish he would have peak greats to test them against. We did seem him demolish Corrales at 130. I doubt he beats leonard or Hearns at 147, so if we are talking pound per pound, he is worthy mentioning, but I have him ahead of a benetiz and behind a duran, hearts, leonard. Ahead of Trinidad, and hmmmmm not sure how to rank him vs a DLH>
I love how these PBF threads get morphed into a Duran-Leonard-Mayweather thread! pinky, you're on fire, my friend!
Last edited by walshb; 05-22-2012 at 06:38 AM.
Black, gifted, olympians.
That's pretty much it to be simple here.
They are not the same and Sugar Ray Leonards success by no means translates into Floyd having the same success at all.
Sugar Ray leonard could establish consistent lateral movement at 147 and maintain a high output, a dynamic offense, with real punching power and crack by any standard.
Floyd's defensive prowess comes at the expense of punch output. He doesn't have the power to offset this punch output at 147 against guys with an offensive skillset like Durans and real durability. His legs aren't anywhere to be seen at 147 either.
Floyd will inevitably have to stand in the pocket with the unrelenting duran and he will get taken apart. Headmovement, punch placement, timing, raw intensity. Duran wouldn't wait. He wouldn't step back. He wouldn't step into the killzone and fail to let his hands go immediately in the way that Cotto did time and time again from his low crouch. Floyd has no choice but to open up and loses accordingly. Doesn't open up and get's outhustled to a UD or Late stoppage. Durans ringcraft is greatly underappreciated by the casual fan. In the pocket few were better and this is where this fight would take place.
In conclusion i disagree. Durans a terrible stylistic matchup for Mayweather.
Last edited by JaKob; 05-22-2012 at 07:25 AM.
Hey Pink...Love the enthusiasm. Sorry that we disagree. It is understandible. Mayweather put on a nice performance against a fighter from the Duran school of boxing. The difference is between Duran and Cotto is defense, power, speed, agility, and confidence. Duran at 154 from the Moore fight which it where this fight would take place, was very close to as fast as the 34 year old Mayweather, but with better defense, power, and combinations. I think that Mayweather would last the distance, but he would be running away from Roberto who would establish the jab first, then slipping what Mayweather came back with, then countering with his own hooks or right hand.
Floyd would be bruised up and swollen pretty bad.
Against Leonard (147) that fought Duran in Montreal I think that Mayweather would be KO'ed. 15 rounds is a lot to ask a guy who does not have the power to hurt Leonard, nor is he faster, or is he meaner or tougher than Leonard. I see that all of the gifts that make Mayweather "special" today, would be null in the ring with these two MONSTERS. If Mayweather is to beat these guys (by points, BTW, because there is no way he gets even close to hurting them) it would be by showing us some serious grit, meaness, and honest hellfire that no fighter has bought out of Mayweather.
Heck, the closest he came to losing a fight was Castillio. That to me me means he has not really even been tested in his career. And in that fight he did not rise to the occasion. He got beat up.
JaKob, great post. Thanks.
Last edited by JLP 6; 05-22-2012 at 09:58 AM.
Friends, I will not morph this into a leonard discussion. I only brought that up, as I could think of no other great fighters/ fights that are a better comparison... Maybe sweat pea chavez... The responses to my post, is exactly my point. I like the fighters not only leonard, or Hearns, or Duran, but also Jones etc. I think we sell Mayweather short on style and technique and toughness. He is not soft. He does not hit particularly hard, but is very fast, accurate and has every punch in the arsenal.
Now I do agree a beast like prime Duran, based on the Castillo fight and other fights, IMO would be too much for Mayweather, but thats about it. Hearns, Leoanrd, Duran. The rest I think would get beaten by peak Mayweather. He has counters that are 2nd to none, he avoids punches like no other. He gets on the ropes, it looks like he is getting hit, but for the most part he is avoiding each of the punches. Frusterates the hell out of fighters.
Yes he has not faced a peak Duran, and I do not rank him up there with them, but is in the class directly behind those fighters.
The problem is it's really hard to measure a fighter against the greats of the past at a respective weight class when he hasn't fought comparable competition. I think Floyd's run at 147 is overrated by the CASUAL fan ie. not those on CBZ. The welterweight landscape has been relatively bleak and Pacquaio and Mayweather have both been standouts as a result. There hasn't been a peak dynamic offensive fighter at welterweight comparable to those from other era's to put that first '1' on Mayweathers record. He beat Oscar De La Hoya and Shane Mosley both who fought eachtother at their peaks in the welterweight division 7 and 10 years before hand. Often competition is picked apart to discredit a fighter but that is not my intention. Simply trying to be objective. I don't just think he would be beat by Duran, SRL, Hearns, Robinson but also a number of others who could outhustle him to a UD and exploit his weaknesses up here at 147. The turn of the century welterweight trio De La Hoya, Mosley, Trinidad arguably for a start.
I think Floyd was definately better at the lower weights. Although never a real mover he could utilize some good lateral movement and more importantly he had the power to offset his conservative workrate which must stay conservative and relatively low in order to maintain his effective defense. I do think he is a great fighter and he has many qualities as a FIGHTER which i respect immensely. Never out of shape, a complete dedication to his craft, oh so consistent, and the mentality and focus of a true champion in the ring. In the ring his composure is always intact, he never appears flustered, always sharp, turning the pace on and off controlling the ebb and flow to serve his purposes. I think he has true champion qualities regardless of how fucking unbearable he is outside of the ring.
Imo, if there was the perfect antidote to Mayweather, it would be all that the best Duran encompassed.
Of course I believe Leonard beats Mayweather also but in terms of stylistic meshing, the potential result yielded by Duran may perhaps be that much more emphatic and impressive.
Imo again, best Pacquiao shares some common offensive attributes with that Duran lending itself to the belief that Manny could've overcome Mayweather. In Duran however, Floyd would also encounter a better overall boxer with excellent defense in particular. While Duran's offense would ultimately suffocate Mayweather, Floyd would also find a guy who could slip more than a few of his shots. Duran's ferocity often over-shadowed his slick defensive moves and ring generalship.
I agree that Mayweather's conditioning and singular focus is to be applauded. As Pac's fight with Bradley approaches, I've read Roach suggest that Pac wasn't properly focused for his last fight (v Marquez) and that it will be different this time. If true, I wouldn't view that as a "saver" for Pac, rather, a mark against him and a point of reference that I would actually hold in favour of Mayweather.